He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
I'm in favour of the govt backdating £27k tuition fees to 2012 @ current interest rates (6.1%) for all living graduates.
If it's not fair for non-graduates to subsidise graduates, it's monumentally unfair to wallop new graduates and let existing ones off the hook.
The tories have ripped up the generational covenant.
It would be monumentally unfair to charge people for something they were never told they would be charged for either.
I was amongst the first to go to university paying fees after Tony Blair introduced fees. We felt hard done by, my parents generation had got grants and free university, I got loans and fees. But I've paid my loan repayments and fees over time as due. When I look at what has changed since I now realise I was not hardly done by - but I never agreed to take on debts of £27k fees either and they are not due. I've paid my fees.
The tories have already rewritten the terms of post 2012 student loans to massively increase the amount new graduates pay back. With respect - your loan (and mine!) are nothing compared to the deal the post-2012 graduates got.
Didn't the government retrospectively change loan terms? So students took a loan under one set of circumstances and then discovered the terms and conditions had changed later?
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
One of the interesting things about this campaign is that Corbyn has been industriously ditching some of his principles. He has abandoned opposition to Trident, rowed back on his oft-repeated pacifism, and distanced himself from people he used to call friends. He has also consistently flip-flopped on Europe.
Anyone would think he was a normal politician or something - one who really does want to win. The Marx he currently most resembles is Groucho.
The funniest change has been his support for wealthy pensioners keeping the Winter Fuel Allowance.
SNIP Labour is a sad parody of itself. A party of self interested middle class virtue signallers who claim to care about the poor but are focussed on as many middle class privileges and advantages as they can glean from the system, whatever the cost.
SNIP
You could make a bequest in your will to a university to provide bursaries or you could make regular donations while you are still alive. Many graduates already do this voluntarily.
Voluntary action will only ever raise peanuts, as you know full well.
No, I don't know this full well. Universities raise a considerable amount from alumni. How much do you estimate a tax on 5-10% of people attending university in the 60s to early 80s wil raise? I would rather make a contribution to an institution and be able to see where it will be used than pay a tax to the Treasury which will disappear into the ether.
I don't back such a tax. I am merely pointing out that calls for unilateral charity in the place of general taxation are the refuge of the mathematically inept. They raise sod all, in the round. Yes, they can be used for special causes (my alma mater wrote to me the other day to ask for a donation to the upgrade of one of its old buildings) but in terms of funding admissions? Nah, drop in the ocean.
I'm not mathematically inept, by the way. I was replying to a suggestion for a retrospective tax on 60s-80s graduates to repay their education not to the future funding of tertiary education.
How exactly are you going to work out how people in their 50s-70s went to university or not?
I'm frustrated at the ever increasing use of "community" as in Libyan Community or Muslim Community. I thought we were told to accept diversity and different cultures, it seems certain people don't wish to assimilate at all. These communities, wherever and whoever they are will make themselves increasingly isolated and create greater suspicion. I'm afraid that reprisals are inevitable and as usual its the fault of politicians and their ridiculous social experiments and engineering.
Don't even get me started on Community Leaders.
Who is your community leader ? I've no idea who mine is . Why do some sections of our equal community have these unelected figureheads ?
Exactly.
As @Blue_rog points out with Sharia law, a different system appears to be operating.
The bomber smoked weed, travelled to London, Libya and Syria as a student - who was funding all this and why weren't concerns raised?
The likes of Tommy Whatisname will be stoking up all sorts of trouble.
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
You argued that by calling a general election Mrs May was indirectly responsible for the deaths in Manchester and should therefore resign.
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
I'm frustrated at the ever increasing use of "community" as in Libyan Community or Muslim Community. I thought we were told to accept diversity and different cultures, it seems certain people don't wish to assimilate at all. These communities, wherever and whoever they are will make themselves increasingly isolated and create greater suspicion. I'm afraid that reprisals are inevitable and as usual its the fault of politicians and their ridiculous social experiments and engineering.
Don't even get me started on Community Leaders.
Who is your community leader ? I've no idea who mine is . Why do some sections of our equal community have these unelected figureheads ?
Exactly.
As @Blue_rog points out with Sharia law, a different system appears to be operating.
The bomber smoked weed, travelled to London, Libya and Syria as a student - who was funding all this and why weren't concerns raised?
The likes of Tommy Whatisname will be stoking up all sorts of trouble.
Concerns presumably were raised - hence the 'known to the authorities' comment. It's probably too early to get into what might have failed or what was missed but the security services can't follow everyone and have to make judgement calls based on the evidence available.
One of the interesting things about this campaign is that Corbyn has been industriously ditching some of his principles. He has abandoned opposition to Trident, rowed back on his oft-repeated pacifism, and distanced himself from people he used to call friends. He has also consistently flip-flopped on Europe.
Anyone would think he was a normal politician or something - one who really does want to win. The Marx he currently most resembles is Groucho.
The funniest change has been his support for wealthy pensioners keeping the Winter Fuel Allowance.
SNIP Labour is a sad parody of itself. A party of self interested middle class virtue signallers who claim to care about the poor but are focussed on as many middle class privileges and advantages as they can glean from the system, whatever the cost.
SNIP
You could make a bequest in your will to a university to provide bursaries or you could make regular donations while you are still alive. Many graduates already do this voluntarily.
Voluntary action will only ever raise peanuts, as you know full well.
No, I don't know this full well. Universities raise a considerable amount from alumni. How much do you estimate a tax on 5-10% of people attending university in the 60s to early 80s wil raise? I would rather make a contribution to an institution and be able to see where it will be used than pay a tax to the Treasury which will disappear into the ether.
I don't back such a tax. I am merely pointing out that calls for unilateral charity in the place of general taxation are the refuge of the mathematically inept. They raise sod all, in the round. Yes, they can be used for special causes (my alma mater wrote to me the other day to ask for a donation to the upgrade of one of its old buildings) but in terms of funding admissions? Nah, drop in the ocean.
I'm not mathematically inept, by the way. I was replying to a suggestion for a retrospective tax on 60s-80s graduates to repay their education not to the future funding of tertiary education.
How exactly are you going to work out how people in their 50s-70s went to university or not?
I have no idea. It wasn't my suggestion in the first place and it's not going to happen anyway. My point was that if you wish to repay the cost there is nothing to stop you doing it voluntarily
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
Yes I was called out last night by all the psychophantic pb Conservatives who are happy to vote for donkeys wearing a blue rosette and continue to get a government of asses .
I'm frustrated at the ever increasing use of "community" as in Libyan Community or Muslim Community. I thought we were told to accept diversity and different cultures, it seems certain people don't wish to assimilate at all. These communities, wherever and whoever they are will make themselves increasingly isolated and create greater suspicion. I'm afraid that reprisals are inevitable and as usual its the fault of politicians and their ridiculous social experiments and engineering.
Don't even get me started on Community Leaders.
Who is your community leader ? I've no idea who mine is . Why do some sections of our equal community have these unelected figureheads ?
Exactly.
As @Blue_rog points out with Sharia law, a different system appears to be operating.
The bomber smoked weed, travelled to London, Libya and Syria as a student - who was funding all this and why weren't concerns raised?
The likes of Tommy Whatisname will be stoking up all sorts of trouble.
Concerns presumably were raised - hence the 'known to the authorities' comment. It's probably too early to get into what might have failed or what was missed but the security services can't follow everyone and have to make judgement calls based on the evidence available.
Apparently the French security services were also well aware of this individual.
I agree. Also, earlier immigrants embraced our society and the second generation were generally more integrated than the first wave. The self imposed isolation of these (muslim) communities needs to be addressed in some way. This has been said many times but nothing happens. The mosques need to be under much greater scrutiny especially when it's been shown that they can hide fund raising for terrorist groups and/or radicalisation.
If the community/mosque alerted the authorities as soon as there was a behaviour change in someone I think a lot of these atrocities could be prevented.
I'm dubious about "scrutiny" of routine religious activity (it sounds like a really boring job with doubtful benefits), but I do agree that, as a Muslim interviewed on Radio 4 yesterday said, it needs to be a priority to encourage people to argue with and if necessary report friends who are flirting with violent activity.
That is so utterly against our instincts that it needs a conscious effort. We've surely all met people who admitted to actually committing some sort of offence and it didn't cross our minds to ring the police about it. And it's not easy to judge when intent is serious. If you had a friend who said "I'd seriously like to shoot that [name a politician], maybe I will one day", you'd probably tell him to stop talking bollocks, but would you dial 999? And if you were in an ethnic group some of whom feel marginalised and under pressure, wouldn't that make it even harder? And if everyone reported every repellent comment, wouldn't that overwhelm the police and also make us too much of a Stasi society?
Perhaps we need something like Childline where people can discuss behaviour by friends and relatives that worries them and whether it's reached the point that the police need to be called in? I honestly don't know what's best - it's just a suggestion.
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
Yes I was called out last night by all the psychophantic pb Conservatives who are happy to vote for donkeys wearing a blue rosette and continue to get a government of asses .
You are now resorting to name calling having lost the argument. Your behaving like a 4 year who has had their favourite toy taken off them and is having petulant rant about it not been fair.
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
I do think, however, that you are using it for political advantage with your post. Why not follow the example of all our leaders and leave it for a day or two? It's not as though anything we say here is going to affect the outcome.
No, though predicting how the parties and media might treat the bombing over the next two weeks is worth considering. It is a very delicate but necessary discussion to have, just as the question of fitness to govern and who you trust to balance security with freedoms is a necessary debate for the election at large, once campaigning resumes.
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
Yes I was called out last night by all the psychophantic pb Conservatives who are happy to vote for donkeys wearing a blue rosette and continue to get a government of asses .
I see we've just reached the argument-lost stage of throwing insults.
The real question now to ask now: Are we (the Government) spending enough money to adequately defend this nation from further terrorist attacks? Police spending, spending on intelligence are now quite legitimate subjects to talk about. I really don't know the answer to these question!
I'm in favour of the govt backdating £27k tuition fees to 2012 @ current interest rates (6.1%) for all living graduates.
If it's not fair for non-graduates to subsidise graduates, it's monumentally unfair to wallop new graduates and let existing ones off the hook.
The tories have ripped up the generational covenant.
It would be monumentally unfair to charge people for something they were never told they would be charged for either.
I was amongst the first to go to university paying fees after Tony Blair introduced fees. We felt hard done by, my parents generation had got grants and free university, I got loans and fees. But I've paid my loan repayments and fees over time as due. When I look at what has changed since I now realise I was not hardly done by - but I never agreed to take on debts of £27k fees either and they are not due. I've paid my fees.
The tories have already rewritten the terms of post 2012 student loans to massively increase the amount new graduates pay back. With respect - your loan (and mine!) are nothing compared to the deal the post-2012 graduates got.
Didn't the government retrospectively change loan terms? So students took a loan under one set of circumstances and then discovered the terms and conditions had changed later?
They have racked up the interest. One reason amongst several that mean I will give Fox jr his inheritance early, in part.
If wanting a retrospective graduate tax, why not simply up the higher rate of income tax. Many will be graduates, but others will have benefited from graduates indirectly.
I agree. Also, earlier immigrants embraced our society and the second generation were generally more integrated than the first wave. The self imposed isolation of these (muslim) communities needs to be addressed in some way. This has been said many times but nothing happens. The mosques need to be under much greater scrutiny especially when it's been shown that they can hide fund raising for terrorist groups and/or radicalisation.
If the community/mosque alerted the authorities as soon as there was a behaviour change in someone I think a lot of these atrocities could be prevented.
I'm dubious about "scrutiny" of routine religious activity (it sounds like a really boring job with doubtful benefits), but I do agree that, as a Muslim interviewed on Radio 4 yesterday said, it needs to be a priority to encourage people to argue with and if necessary report friends who are flirting with violent activity.
That is so utterly against our instincts that it needs a conscious effort. We've surely all met people who admitted to actually committing some sort of offence and it didn't cross our minds to ring the police about it. And it's not easy to judge when intent is serious. If you had a friend who said "I'd seriously like to shoot that [name a politician], maybe I will one day", you'd probably tell him to stop talking bollocks, but would you dial 999? And if you were in an ethnic group some of whom feel marginalised and under pressure, wouldn't that make it even harder? And if everyone reported every repellent comment, wouldn't that overwhelm the police and also make us too much of a Stasi society?
Perhaps we need something like Childline where people can discuss behaviour by friends and relatives that worries them and whether it's reached the point that the police need to be called in? I honestly don't know what's best - it's just a suggestion.
Something like prevent or Channel? The community leaders just say their people are being picked on
Morning PB. The difficulty in betting now is identifying the fallout of Mondays atrocity. Obviously feelings will be running very high for some time, and the presence of the army and armed police will change perspectives. The country is a very different place now on Wednesday morning than it was on Monday evening. I'm tempted to get out of betting on GE17 entirely, as I really do think that the effects could be very drastic and unreadable, not to mention volatile.
May is a lucky lady. The army out on the streets is going to make voters vote for nurse for fear of something worse. Corbyn and security are an anathema to one another.
I think Army on the street because there aren't enough police (cut by 20000 since 2010) and TM speech where she told the police they were scaremongering and crying wolf in 2015and further cuts were needed wont play well.
Labour offering is more police. Tories??
I know which I will feel safer with
And yet it is the Corbynistas who are crying foul on security being raised to 'severe' - it's almost as if they think their team isn't that strong on security matters and trust on that crucial issue.... why is that I wonder?
We have armed policemen already – why can't we deploy extra on to the streets instead of having tommies all over the place? It's bad enough seeing coppers with big f-off machine guns every bloody morning at Liverpool St Station, but at least these guys are trained to deal with the public. Not sure I fancy a load of soldiers manning the platforms on my morning commute.
We do not have enough armed police, but even if we did they would only have pistols to deal with the usual run of the mill knife/axe wielding nutjob. Even in the USA they have specialist SWAT teams. But even in the USA and going back to the notorious North Hollywood Shootout the local police found themselves outgunned by two heavily armed and armoured bank robbers.
However if the Westminster Bridge/Palace policeman had been armed with a simple automatic pistol he would probably be alive today.
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
Yes I was called out last night by all the psychophantic pb Conservatives who are happy to vote for donkeys wearing a blue rosette and continue to get a government of asses .
You are now resorting to name calling having lost the argument. Your behaving like a 4 year who has had their favourite toy taken off them and is having petulant rant about it not been fair.
And you are behaving like a partisan Conservative afraid of and wanting to shut down any criticism of your party and leader .
The real question now to ask now: Are we (the Government) spending enough money to adequately defend this nation from further terrorist attacks? Police spending, spending on intelligence are now quite legitimate subjects to talk about. I really don't know the answer to these question!
Admit it - you just want to know if you're on a watch list.
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
Yes I was called out last night by all the psychophantic pb Conservatives who are happy to vote for donkeys wearing a blue rosette and continue to get a government of asses .
You are now resorting to name calling having lost the argument. Your behaving like a 4 year who has had their favourite toy taken off them and is having petulant rant about it not been fair.
And you are behaving like a partisan Conservative afraid of and wanting to shut down any criticism of your party and leader .
I agree. Also, earlier immigrants embraced our society and the second generation were generally more integrated than the first wave. The self imposed isolation of these (muslim) communities needs to be addressed in some way. This has been said many times but nothing happens. The mosques need to be under much greater scrutiny especially when it's been shown that they can hide fund raising for terrorist groups and/or radicalisation.
If the community/mosque alerted the authorities as soon as there was a behaviour change in someone I think a lot of these atrocities could be prevented.
I'm dubious about "scrutiny" of routine religious activity (it sounds like a really boring job with doubtful benefits), but I do agree that, as a Muslim interviewed on Radio 4 yesterday said, it needs to be a priority to encourage people to argue with and if necessary report friends who are flirting with violent activity.
That is so utterly against our instincts that it needs a conscious effort. We've surely all met people who admitted to actually committing some sort of offence and it didn't cross our minds to ring the police about it. And it's not easy to judge when intent is serious. If you had a friend who said "I'd seriously like to shoot that [name a politician], maybe I will one day", you'd probably tell him to stop talking bollocks, but would you dial 999? And if you were in an ethnic group some of whom feel marginalised and under pressure, wouldn't that make it even harder? And if everyone reported every repellent comment, wouldn't that overwhelm the police and also make us too much of a Stasi society?
Perhaps we need something like Childline where people can discuss behaviour by friends and relatives that worries them and whether it's reached the point that the police need to be called in? I honestly don't know what's best - it's just a suggestion.
Surely the point is that once someone is radicalised to the point of committing terrorist acts their behaviour will not appear out of line? They are trained to not bring attention to themselves in a way that might alert the authorities. You've got to stop radicalisation, which means stopping extremist preaching, which means speaking out against hardline faith, which means dropping key aspects of versions of a faith. Which won't happen.
I'm a politically correct liberal type; but seriously, in getting together a group of 'ordinary Mancunians' the BBC has found three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant....
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
Yes I was called out last night by all the psychophantic pb Conservatives who are happy to vote for donkeys wearing a blue rosette and continue to get a government of asses .
I see we've just reached the argument-lost stage of throwing insults.
Yah boo your mum smells.
I agree !!!! I am pleased you acknowledge that all you pb Conservatives attacking me last night lost the argument before it started and just resorted to throwing insults at me .
I think it's really bad that the election campaign is still suspended with no indication of a re-start time. It seems OTT. I'm starting to think, have her advisers suggested doing this for a small party political advantage?
43 years ago, the Guildford pub bombings occurred *5 days* before a general election. Then, as now, we had a Tory governmment but I can't remember there being a prolonged suspension:
In the 1960s only about 5% of people went to university.
Now it is about 40%.
This is why taxpayers in general can not be expected to pay for people to attend university.
If university numbers were reduced back to 5% then general taxpayers could consider paying again for the most academically talented.
Maybe it would also be advantageous for fewer people to go to university and instead follow technical and vocational courses of more value to the country's economy?
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big bef I didn't even think the cock-up oever!
Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Your comment was deplorable because you outright stated that May's calling of a GE (we'll ignore that parliament called it, albeit at her request) weakened our security services, as though they are incapable of both defending the PM and the country, and so prioritised the former (when if they could not do both, they'd tell her to stay in No.10), and therefore that she is personally culpable for what happened, that she weakened our security by calling a GE.
That was absurd, it was outrageous, it was without any basis of evidence, and it was deplorable. Your attempt now to present it as suggesting your comment was about the buck stopping with her is absolute bollocks - you ascribed personal blame to May for the death of children, and that is so far beyond reasonable I find it hard to credit, it is far beyond people going overboard out of emotion in making equivalence with comments of Corbyn and co.
You are intelligent and at times insightful, but you are also probably among the most viciously partisan posters that inhabit this strange place. Many have defended the raising of politics at a time of tragedy, but yours was a personal and without basis attack which your attempt to paint as more reasonable than it was is a nonsense.
And I'll remind your partisan arse that I've never voted Tory (though I have been considering it this time around, in a small part because of how horrible people like you are to people like me who have voted LD but dare to criticise them sometimes), and you act like a paranoid conspiracy loony when you ascribe the motivations of those who attack you entirely to partisan attack, which given how partisan you are is silly.
There have been overreactions and nasty comments around this issue all over, some worse than others, but yours is the only comment I have seen personally blaming May for the attack in a direct fashion, not in a 'the buck stops with her' way as you now pretend, but in a 'this happened because of her' way. There are people banging on about Corbyn and the IRA, people lamenting, obliquely, or celebrating that this might impact the result one way or another, but your comment was vicious, truly truly vicious, and without a foundation entirely unreasonable.
Morning PB. The difficulty in betting now is identifying the fallout of Mondays atrocity. Obviously feelings will be running very high for some time, and the presence of the army and armed police will change perspectives. The country is a very different place now on Wednesday morning than it was on Monday evening. I'm tempted to get out of betting on GE17 entirely, as I really do think that the effects could be very drastic and unreadable, not to mention volatile.
May is a lucky lady. The army out on the streets is going to make voters vote for nurse for fear of something worse. Corbyn and security are an anathema to one another.
I think Army on the street because there aren't enough police (cut by 20000 since 2010) and TM speech where she told the police they were scaremongering and crying wolf in 2015and further cuts were needed wont play well.
Labour offering is more police. Tories??
I know which I will feel safer with
And yet it is the Corbynistas who are crying foul on security being raised to 'severe' - it's almost as if they think their team isn't that strong on security matters and trust on that crucial issue.... why is that I wonder?
We have armed policemen already – why can't we deploy extra on to the streets instead of having tommies all over the place? It's bad enough seeing coppers with big f-off machine guns every bloody morning at Liverpool St Station, but at least these guys are trained to deal with the public. Not sure I fancy a load of soldiers manning the platforms on my morning commute.
We do not have enough armed police, but even if we did they would only have pistols to deal with the usual run of the mill knife/axe wielding nutjob. Even in the USA they have specialist SWAT teams. But even in the USA and going back to the notorious North Hollywood Shootout the local police found themselves outgunned by two heavily armed and armoured bank robbers.
However if the Westminster Bridge/Palace policeman had been armed with a simple automatic pistol he would probably be alive today.
In situations like this, I give the government of the day the benefit of the doubt on decisions. If it was simply about the need to get more bodies on the street they would just cancel all leave and redeploy trained officers from other areas (which they did during London Riots).
Given the response so far being very different to previous attacks, we have to believe the government have credibly concerns about what might happen and thus require military personnel.
I agree. Also, earlier immigrants embraced our society and the second generation were generally more integrated than the first wave. The self imposed isolation of these (muslim) communities needs to be addressed in some way. This has been said many times but nothing happens. The mosques need to be under much greater scrutiny especially when it's been shown that they can hide fund raising for terrorist groups and/or radicalisation.
If the community/mosque alerted the authorities as soon as there was a behaviour change in someone I think a lot of these atrocities could be prevented.
I'm dubious about "scrutiny" of routine religious activity (it sounds like a really boring job with doubtful benefits), but I do agree that, as a Muslim interviewed on Radio 4 yesterday said, it needs to be a priority to encourage people to argue with and if necessary report friends who are flirting with violent activity.
That is so utterly against our instincts that it needs a conscious effort. We've surely all met people who admitted to actually committing some sort of offence and it didn't cross our minds to ring the police about it. And it's not easy to judge when intent is serious. If you had a friend who said "I'd seriously like to shoot that [name a politician], maybe I will one day", you'd probably tell him to stop talking bollocks, but would you dial 999? And if you were in an ethnic group some of whom feel marginalised and under pressure, wouldn't that make it even harder? And if everyone reported every repellent comment, wouldn't that overwhelm the police and also make us too much of a Stasi society?
Perhaps we need something like Childline where people can discuss behaviour by friends and relatives that worries them and whether it's reached the point that the police need to be called in? I honestly don't know what's best - it's just a suggestion.
A thoughtful reply, thanks Nick.
I think the task would be a lot easier if the isolatist nature of muslim communities could be removed. As I said in a subsequent post, no go areas and Sharia courts being regarded as 'normal' is an anathema to normal British society
If Tuesday's attack is politically unhelpful for Labour and its leader, there is a reason for that. Unfortunately, Corbyn does bring baggage with him. But party members knew this when they voted for him, twice, so they cannot say they were not warned.
I'm in favour of the govt backdating £27k tuition fees to 2012 @ current interest rates (6.1%) for all living graduates.
If it's not fair for non-graduates to subsidise graduates, it's monumentally unfair to wallop new graduates and let existing ones off the hook.
The tories have ripped up the generational covenant.
It would be monumentally unfair to charge people for something they were never told they would be charged for either.
I was amongst the first to go to university paying fees after Tony Blair introduced fees. We felt hard done by, my parents generation had got grants and free university, I got loans and fees. But I've paid my loan repayments and fees over time as due. When I look at what has changed since I now realise I was not hardly done by - but I never agreed to take on debts of £27k fees either and they are not due. I've paid my fees.
The tories have already rewritten the terms of post 2012 student loans to massively increase the amount new graduates pay back. With respect - your loan (and mine!) are nothing compared to the deal the post-2012 graduates got.
Didn't the government retrospectively change loan terms? So students took a loan under one set of circumstances and then discovered the terms and conditions had changed later?
They have racked up the interest. One reason amongst several that mean I will give Fox jr his inheritance early, in part.
If wanting a retrospective graduate tax, why not simply up the higher rate of income tax. Many will be graduates, but others will have benefited from graduates indirectly.
For example by extending the 45% rate down to earnings above £80k and reintroducing the 50% rate?
A pity none of the parties are suggesting that, coupled with ending tuition fees.
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
Yes I was called out last night by all the psychophantic pb Conservatives who are happy to vote for donkeys wearing a blue rosette and continue to get a government of asses .
I see we've just reached the argument-lost stage of throwing insults.
Yah boo your mum smells.
I agree !!!! I am pleased you acknowledge that all you pb Conservatives attacking me last night lost the argument before it started and just resorted to throwing insults at me .
I'm not sure it's actually an insult.
I am relatively confident that your Mum does, in fact, smell.
If Tuesday's attack is politically unhelpful for labour and its leader, there is a reason for that. Unfortunately, Corbyn does bring baggage with him. But Labour members knew this when they voted for him, twice, so they cannot say they were not warned.
I only hope that Corbyn and his rag bag of terrorist sympathizers, Marxists, Communists, Antisemites and holocaust deniers are booted from Labour ASAP.
I really fear that we won't see a sensible centre left Labour Party i.e. one I can vote for, if Corbyn exceeds Miliband and Brown GE performance.
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
I do think, however, that you are using it for political advantage with your post. Why not follow the example of all our leaders and leave it for a day or two? It's not as though anything we say here is going to affect the outcome.
No, though predicting how the parties and media might treat the bombing over the next two weeks is worth considering. It is a very delicate but necessary discussion to have, just as the question of fitness to govern and who you trust to balance security with freedoms is a necessary debate for the election at large, once campaigning resumes.
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
uite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
Yes I was called out last night by all the psychophantic pb Conservatives who are happy to vote for donkeys wearing a blue rosette and continue to get a government of asses .
I see we've just reached the argument-lost stage of throwing insults.
Yah boo your mum smells.
I agree !!!! I am pleased you acknowledge that all you pb Conservatives attacking me last night lost the argument before it started and just resorted to throwing insults at me .
I'm not sure it's actually an insult.
I am relatively confident that your Mum does, in fact, smell.
I'm in favour of the govt backdating £27k tuition fees to 2012 @ current interest rates (6.1%) for all living graduates.
If it's not fair for non-graduates to subsidise graduates, it's monumentally unfair to wallop new graduates and let existing ones off the hook.
The tories have ripped up the generational covenant.
It would be monumentally unfair to charge people for something they were never told they would be charged for either.
I was amongst the first to go to university paying fees after Tony Blair introduced fees. We felt hard done by, my parents generation had got grants and free university, I got loans and fees. But I've paid my loan repayments and fees over time as due. When I look at what has changed since I now realise I was not hardly done by - but I never agreed to take on debts of £27k fees either and they are not due. I've paid my fees.
The tories have already rewritten the terms of post 2012 student loans to massively increase the amount new graduates pay back. With respect - your loan (and mine!) are nothing compared to the deal the post-2012 graduates got.
Didn't the government retrospectively change loan terms? So students took a loan under one set of circumstances and then discovered the terms and conditions had changed later?
They have racked up the interest. One reason amongst several that mean I will give Fox jr his inheritance early, in part.
If wanting a retrospective graduate tax, why not simply up the higher rate of income tax. Many will be graduates, but others will have benefited from graduates indirectly.
Do you not want to check on his voting patterns first ?
The real question now to ask now: Are we (the Government) spending enough money to adequately defend this nation from further terrorist attacks? Police spending, spending on intelligence are now quite legitimate subjects to talk about. I really don't know the answer to these question!
Admit it - you just want to know if you're on a watch list.
The authorities response to this attack is rather different than previous ones.
What previous ones? The only comparable attack I can think of is 7/7 and there the authorities reacted similarly from memory including tragically shooting dead an innocent Brazilian they thought was a suspect.
Morning PB. The difficulty in betting now is identifying the fallout of Mondays atrocity. Obviously feelings will be running very high for some time, and the presence of the army and armed police will change perspectives. The country is a very different place now on Wednesday morning than it was on Monday evening. I'm tempted to get out of betting on GE17 entirely, as I really do think that the effects could be very drastic and unreadable, not to mention volatile.
May is a lucky lady. The army out on the streets is going to make voters vote for nurse for fear of something worse. Corbyn and security are an anathema to one another.
I think Army on the street because there aren't enough police (cut by 20000 since 2010) and TM speech where she told the police they were scaremongering and crying wolf in 2015and further cuts were needed wont play well.
Labour offering is more police. Tories??
I know which I will feel safer with
And yet it is the Corbynistas who are crying foul on security being raised to 'severe' - it's almost as if they think their team isn't that strong on security matters and trust on that crucial issue.... why is that I wonder?
We have armed policemen already – why can't we deploy extra on to the streets instead of having tommies all over the place? It's bad enough seeing coppers with big f-off machine guns every bloody morning at Liverpool St Station, but at least these guys are trained to deal with the public. Not sure I fancy a load of soldiers manning the platforms on my morning commute.
We do not have enough armed police, but even if we did they would only have pistols to deal with the usual run of the mill knife/axe wielding nutjob. Even in the USA they have specialist SWAT teams. But even in the USA and going back to the notorious North Hollywood Shootout the local police found themselves outgunned by two heavily armed and armoured bank robbers.
However if the Westminster Bridge/Palace policeman had been armed with a simple automatic pistol he would probably be alive today.
If the policeman killed had warning of the knife attack he could have fended him off with his truncheon as effectively as with a pistol.
Faith seems to be used as a blanket for either evil or weakness. What bloody use is it to anybody? It serves no purpose but to divide, excuse, enflame and subjugate.
Remind me again, how many food banks and night shelters are run by Richard Dawkins' organisation or the British Humanist Society?
The funniest change has been his support for wealthy pensioners keeping the Winter Fuel Allowance.
SNIP Labour is a sad parody of itself. A party of self interested middle class virtue signallers who claim to care about the poor but are focussed on as many middle class privileges and advantages as they can glean from the system, whatever the cost.
SNIP
You could make a bequest in your will to a university to provide bursaries or you could make regular donations while you are still alive. Many graduates already do this voluntarily.
Voluntary action will only ever raise peanuts, as you know full well.
No, I don't know this full well. Universities raise a considerable amount from alumni. How much do you estimate a tax on 5-10% of people attending university in the 60s to early 80s wil raise? I would rather make a contribution to an institution and be able to see where it will be used than pay a tax to the Treasury which will disappear into the ether.
I don't back such a tax. I am merely pointing out that calls for unilateral charity in the place of general taxation are the refuge of the mathematically inept. They raise sod all, in the round. Yes, they can be used for special causes (my alma mater wrote to me the other day to ask for a donation to the upgrade of one of its old buildings) but in terms of funding admissions? Nah, drop in the ocean.
I'm not mathematically inept, by the way. I was replying to a suggestion for a retrospective tax on 60s-80s graduates to repay their education not to the future funding of tertiary education.
How exactly are you going to work out how people in their 50s-70s went to university or not?
It wouldn't be for the government to figure it out - It would be a universal tax/charge - If people can prove they didn't go to university, they get the tax break.
In reality, it's fair but unworkable. The alternative - what we have at the moment - is workable, but profoundly unfair.
Hopefully, the tragic events on Monday will put an end to any notions that our fellow Europeans are in any way our enemies. They are not, as their responses have shown. Our real enemies lie elsewhere. Also, those advocating the UK use security as some kind of Brexit negotiating tool might want to reconsider.
If Tuesday's attack is politically unhelpful for Labour and its leader, there is a reason for that. Unfortunately, Corbyn does bring baggage with him. But party members knew this when they voted for him, twice, so they cannot say they were not warned.
But his supporters still said "long time ago", "working for peace", "nobody under 40 cares", well they look like bloody idiots now, and it serves them right.
Countries that are critical of Israel still get hit by terrorists. Israel's existence is a pretext, rather than a real grievance.
It is not their existence but their refusal to accept UN resolutions that causes many in the Arab world (and the world in general) to feel there are double standards. The grievance is very real.
I heard a rare intelligent discussion between Saeb Erekat and Tzipi Livni on French TV. Erekat pointed to the impossibility of getting the Palestinians to recognise Israel's borders including their right to Jerusalem (promised to them by God 3000 years ago) before talks could start while ignoring Israel's refusal to recognise Palestine at all.
Having said that their agreement on many issues was hopeful.
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
Yes I was called out last night by all the psychophantic pb Conservatives who are happy to vote for donkeys wearing a blue rosette and continue to get a government of asses .
Says one of the most partisan posters on the board.
I think it's really bad that the election campaign is still suspended with no indication of a re-start time. It seems OTT. I'm starting to think, have her advisers suggested doing this for a small party political advantage?
43 years ago, the Guildford pub bombings occurred *5 days* before a general election. Then, as now, we had a Tory governmment but I can't remember there being a prolonged suspension:
The campaign should restart this afternoon. I agree that the indefinite restart time is absurd, and counterproductive. Millions commuted to work as normal today, as they did yesterday in the wake of the bomb.
If the policeman killed had warning of the knife attack he could have fended him off with his truncheon as effectively as with a pistol.
Indeed. Check the death toll of American Police versus our British counterparts. The last thing the routine Police need or want is being armed. Our system works well.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big bef I didn't even think the cock-up oever!
Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
That was absurd, it was outrageous, it was without any basis of evidence, and it was deplorable. Your attempt now to present it as suggesting your comment was about the buck stopping with her is absolute bollocks - you ascribed personal blame to May for the death of children, and that is so far beyond reasonable I find it hard to credit, it is far beyond people going overboard out of emotion in making equivalence with comments of Corbyn and co.
You are intelligent and at times insightful, but you are also probably among the most viciously partisan posters that inhabit this strange place. Many have defended the raising of politics at a time of tragedy, but yours was a personal and without basis attack which your attempt to paint as more reasonable than it was is a nonsense.
There have been overreactions and nasty comments around this issue all over, some worse than others, but yours is the only comment I have seen personally blaming May for the attack in a direct fashion, not in a 'the buck stops with her' way as you now pretend, but in a 'this happened because of her' way. There are people banging on about Corbyn and the IRA, people lamenting, obliquely, or celebrating that this might impact the result one way or another, but your comment was vicious, truly truly vicious, and without a foundation entirely unreasonable.
What's worse is you no doubt think that because people have been made upset by your comments, including people you do not like (hell, perhaps people whose opinions I do not like either) that that proves your point, because they are having a reaction and you remain calm.
Politics now is fine, if people are personall willing to stomach what will be raised hackles and occasional oversteps, by the way. Difficult times, require difficult questioning sometimes. But accusations for partisan advantage, and such vicious ones?
I'm a politically correct liberal type; but seriously, in getting together a group of 'ordinary Mancunians' the BBC has found three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant....
Everyone else is at work
Can we therefore deduce that the current PB contributors (apart from me obviously) are similarly ........
"three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant" ?
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
Countries that are critical of Israel still get hit by terrorists. Israel's existence is a pretext, rather than a real grievance.
It is not their existence but their refusal to accept UN resolutions that causes many in the Arab world (and the world in general) to feel there are double standards. The grievance is very real.
I heard a rare intelligent discussion between Saeb Erekat and Tzipi Livni on French TV. Erekat pointed to the impossibility of getting the Palestinians to recognise Israel's borders including their right to Jerusalem (promised to them by God 3000 years ago) before talks could start while ignoring Israel's refusal to recognise Palestine at all.
Having said that their agreement on many issues was hopeful.
UN Security Council resolutions or General resolutions?
Because the latter are racist, sexist, meaningless, pathetic and not accepted by anyone anywhere, The former cut both ways and Israel is not in violation of many of those.
I'm a politically correct liberal type; but seriously, in getting together a group of 'ordinary Mancunians' the BBC has found three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant....
Everyone else is at work
Can we therefore deduce that the current PB contributors (apart from me obviously) are similarly ........
"three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant" ?
I'm in favour of the govt backdating £27k tuition fees to 2012 @ current interest rates (6.1%) for all living graduates.
If it's not fair for non-graduates to subsidise graduates, it's monumentally unfair to wallop new graduates and let existing ones off the hook.
The tories have ripped up the generational covenant.
It would be monumentally unfair to charge people for something they were never told they would be charged for either.
I was amongst the first to go to university paying fees after Tony Blair introduced fees. We felt hard done by, my parents generation had got grants and free university, I got loans and fees. But I've paid my loan repayments and fees over time as due. When I look at what has changed since I now realise I was not hardly done by - but I never agreed to take on debts of £27k fees either and they are not due. I've paid my fees.
You appear to belong to the intermediate group of students which had to pay fees but at a much more modest rate than has been demanded of more recent undergraduates. I was really seeking to address the frequently advanced point that it is wrong fror the minority who attend university to be subsidised by those who do not. That argument had much more force back in my day - I graduated in 1976 - when 5% - 7% enrolled on degree courses .We were much more an elitist greatly privileged cohort than has been true of students of the last twenty years.We also benefitted from obtaining degree qualifications which had much more real value than those awarded in recent years.Rampant grade inflation and changes to methods of assessment have made it far easier to achieve a given class of degree than was true in the past - a 2.1 has long become the norm such that students who fail to reach that level often feel they have rather wasted their time whereas back in the 60s and 70s most students ended up with a 2.2 and were really chuffed if they managed a 2.1.This is very couterinuitive in that undergraduates are nothing like the elitist group they once where - so if standards were being maintained the average degree class ought to have dipped..Despite this they are expected to pay a great deal of money and incur significant debt for qualifications which are worth a lot less in real terms to those awarded to their parents or grandparents.In these circumstances , asking the fortunate privileged few - my generation - to make a contribution via - say -a Personal Allowance £1,000 pa lower than for non graduates seems fair and reasonable.
If Tuesday's attack is politically unhelpful for Labour and its leader, there is a reason for that. Unfortunately, Corbyn does bring baggage with him. But party members knew this when they voted for him, twice, so they cannot say they were not warned.
What's interesting is that they vehemently denied it when they were warned. Yet their reaction now shows that they know exactly how accurate those warnings were.
I'm a politically correct liberal type; but seriously, in getting together a group of 'ordinary Mancunians' the BBC has found three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant....
Everyone else is at work
Can we therefore deduce that the current PB contributors (apart from me obviously) are similarly ........
"three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant" ?
Current pb contributors: me, some astroturfing SpAds and an inordinate number of lawyers.
Countries that are critical of Israel still get hit by terrorists. Israel's existence is a pretext, rather than a real grievance.
It is not their existence but their refusal to accept UN resolutions that causes many in the Arab world (and the world in general) to feel there are double standards. The grievance is very real.
I heard a rare intelligent discussion between Saeb Erekat and Tzipi Livni on French TV. Erekat pointed to the impossibility of getting the Palestinians to recognise Israel's borders including their right to Jerusalem (promised to them by God 3000 years ago) before talks could start while ignoring Israel's refusal to recognise Palestine at all.
Having said that their agreement on many issues was hopeful.
It is their existence. Some will point to Israeli failings and behaviour and there are no doubt legitimate grievances. That Israel was itself a state founded on terrorism is one of history's ironies but irrelevant now.
The incompatible facts are: (1) a significant group of Arabs do not accept Israel's right to exist; (2) Israel, in order to give itself physical security, imposes restrictions on Arabs that contravene expected norms of polite society. The two feed directly to each other. Throwing God into the mix doesn't help either.
Mr. Observer, we've already reduced information-sharing with German intelligence, on the basis it kept finding its way into nefarious hands.
Intelligence and security co-operation is done, at least partly, through bodies which we're members of due to being in the EU. Rejoining them post-leaving the EU requires an agreement, which can only happen if there *is* an agreement. If the EU demands onerous, unacceptable conditions and no agreement is reached then we'll leave those organisations simply as a matter of course.
A proper agreement is in everyone's interest. The idea the EU is fine to threaten us economically but that the UK must provide security and defence support as a matter of course is nonsensical.
Mr. Pulpstar, I agree. In that situation, the PLP should split and form a new party.
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
I agree. Also, earlier immigrants embraced our society and the second generation were generally more integrated than the first wave. The self imposed isolation of these (muslim) communities needs to be addressed in some way. This has been said many times but nothing happens. The mosques need to be under much greater scrutiny especially when it's been shown that they can hide fund raising for terrorist groups and/or radicalisation.
If the community/mosque alerted the authorities as soon as there was a behaviour change in someone I think a lot of these atrocities could be prevented.
I'm dubious about "scrutiny" of routine religious activity (it sounds like a really boring job with doubtful benefits), but I do agree that, as a Muslim interviewed on Radio 4 yesterday said, it needs to be a priority to encourage people to argue with and if necessary report friends who are flirting with violent activity.
That is so utterly against our instincts that it needs a conscious effort. We've surely all met people who admitted to actually committing some sort of offence and it didn't cross our minds to ring the police about it. And it's not easy to judge when intent is serious. If you had a friend who said "I'd seriously like to shoot that [name a politician], maybe I will one day", you'd probably tell him to stop talking bollocks, but would you dial 999? And if you were in an ethnic group some of whom feel marginalised and under pressure, wouldn't that make it even harder? And if everyone reported every repellent comment, wouldn't that overwhelm the police and also make us too much of a Stasi society?
Perhaps we need something like Childline where people can discuss behaviour by friends and relatives that worries them and whether it's reached the point that the police need to be called in? I honestly don't know what's best - it's just a suggestion.
A thoughtful reply, thanks Nick.
I think the task would be a lot easier if the isolatist nature of muslim communities could be removed. As I said in a subsequent post, no go areas and Sharia courts being regarded as 'normal' is an anathema to normal British society
Are there actually no go areas in Britain? No go to who? The police? Are there Sharia courts?
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
uite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ? If Mrs Weak and Wobbly cannot defend this country and the children of Manchester the buck stops on her desk and she should do the honourable thing and resign .
Mark - you were called out on this at length on last nights thread. If you cannot see how deplorable your comment was there is no hope for you. I suggest you read the comments of last night and reflect (if you have the capacity to do so).
Yes I was called out last night by all the psychophantic pb Conservatives who are happy to vote for donkeys wearing a blue rosette and continue to get a government of asses .
I see we've just reached the argument-lost stage of throwing insults.
Yah boo your mum smells.
I agree !!!! I am pleased you acknowledge that all you pb Conservatives attacking me last night lost the argument before it started and just resorted to throwing insults at me .
I'm not sure it's actually an insult.
I am relatively confident that your Mum does, in fact, smell.
Can people who have been cremated smell ?
An incense or floral scent is often added to ashes, so Yes.
If Tuesday's attack is politically unhelpful for Labour and its leader, there is a reason for that. Unfortunately, Corbyn does bring baggage with him. But party members knew this when they voted for him, twice, so they cannot say they were not warned.
Agreed. I made a similar point yesterday that they all knew his weakness on the subject of national security and hence tried to bring the subject onto inequality and the NHS. A fresher, younger figure with bold socialist policies could be making headway at this election, but instead Labour have a throwback terrorist sympathiser who's questionable history is toxic for voters over 40.
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
You appear to belong to the intermediate group of students which had to pay fees but at a much more modest rate than has been demanded of more recent undergraduates. I was really seeking to address the frequently advanced point that it is wrong fror the minority who attend university to be subsidised by those who do not. That argument had much more force back in my day - I graduated in 1976 - when 5% - 7% enrolled on degree courses .We were much more an elitist greatly privileged cohort than has been true of students of the last twenty years.We also benefitted from obtaining degree qualifications which had much more real value than those awarded in recent years.Rampant grade inflation and changes to methods of assessment have made it far easier to achieve a given class of degree than was true in the past - a 2.1 has long become the norm such that students who fail to reach that level often feel they have rather wasted their time whereas back in the 60s and 70s most students ended up with a 2.2 and were really chuffed if they managed a 2.1.This is very couterinuitive in that undergraduates are nothing like the elitist group they once where - so if standards were being maintained the average degree class ought to have dipped..Despite this they are expected to pay a great deal of money and incur significant debt for qualifications which are worth a lot less in real terms to those awarded to their parents or grandparents.In these circumstances , asking the fortunate privileged few - my generation - to make a contribution via - say -a Personal Allowance £1,000 pa lower than for non graduates seems fair and reasonable.
Indeed I am of that intermediate generation, though your generation went in on an agreed basis too: Get into university on merit, get educated and then when you've left you will repay your education through the tax system if you're in a highly paid job.
If you graduated in 1976 then you have been employed for 41 years already. How much tax have you paid over those 41 years? You've probably repaid your uni costs many, many times over already - something today's generation won't necessarily via the tax system precisely because they're not getting the highly paid jobs that your generation did.
I'm a politically correct liberal type; but seriously, in getting together a group of 'ordinary Mancunians' the BBC has found three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant....
Everyone else is at work
Can we therefore deduce that the current PB contributors (apart from me obviously) are similarly ........
"three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant" ?
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
Countries that are critical of Israel still get hit by terrorists. Israel's existence is a pretext, rather than a real grievance.
It is not their existence but their refusal to accept UN resolutions that causes many in the Arab world (and the world in general) to feel there are double standards. The grievance is very real.
I heard a rare intelligent discussion between Saeb Erekat and Tzipi Livni on French TV. Erekat pointed to the impossibility of getting the Palestinians to recognise Israel's borders including their right to Jerusalem (promised to them by God 3000 years ago) before talks could start while ignoring Israel's refusal to recognise Palestine at all.
Having said that their agreement on many issues was hopeful.
UN Security Council resolutions or General resolutions?
Because the latter are racist, sexist, meaningless, pathetic and not accepted by anyone anywhere, The former cut both ways and Israel is not in violation of many of those.
That is exactly the moronic language and attitude that Erekat and Livni avoided. She seemed to better understand the Palestinians circumstances than you and she conceded that while the extreme right held sway over her government there was little prospect of things moving forward with any speed.
I'm in favour of the govt backdating £27k tuition fees to 2012 @ current interest rates (6.1%) for all living graduates.
If it's not fair for non-graduates to subsidise graduates, it's monumentally unfair to wallop new graduates and let existing ones off the hook.
The tories have ripped up the generational covenant.
It would be monumentally unfair to charge people for something they were never told they would be charged for either.
I was amongst the first to go to university paying fees after Tony Blair introduced fees. We felt hard done by, my parents generation had got grants and free university, I got loans and fees. But I've paid my loan repayments and fees over time as due. When I look at what has changed since I now realise I was not hardly done by - but I never agreed to take on debts of £27k fees either and they are not due. I've paid my fees.
asking the fortunate privileged few - my generation - to make a contribution via - say -a Personal Allowance £1,000 pa lower than for non graduates seems fair and reasonable.
How are you going to confirm how workers are graduates or non-graduates? Is there a database somewhere with that information? Whats the cut-off in terms of age. I was also one of the first years to pay fees (Thanks Tony) but my wife who's a year older didn't.
Seems a very expensive excerise, and won't raise a huge amount.
I am coming to the view that May is both wholly indecisive and wholly ruthless, which is a peculiar and unsettling combination. She isn't another Iron Lady; she's more a sort of Iron David Miliband.
I'm a politically correct liberal type; but seriously, in getting together a group of 'ordinary Mancunians' the BBC has found three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant....
Everyone else is at work
Can we therefore deduce that the current PB contributors (apart from me obviously) are similarly ........
"three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant" ?
When the dust settles from this attack and the politics restarts May would do well to publically state she is briefing both 'the leader of the opposition Jeremy Corbyn and the shadow home secretary Diane Abbott' on our national security. That will help focus minds like nothing else. Even if you believe in Corbyn's ideology even the most hardened momentum supporters must have doubts regarding Corbyn and Abbott leading the fight on terror in these dark days.
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
I remembered Mr. Sandpit's unlucky loser on No Safety Car at 8 last year. The only reason the 2016 race saw one was because it rained at the start (the race had four VSC periods).
So, I've backed No Safety Car at 6.5.
Also put a tiny, tiny sum on Perez at 126 (each way) to win (and 11 for a podium). He's very good at this sort of circuit and at making tyres last, so if there is a safety car he's likely to be in good shape to take advantage. Plus, Force India has the best reliability of any team.
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
200 ... do you really think so?
I've been assuming that at best for them the loss of 25-30 relatively obvious Midlands and Northern seats will take them near 200.
Plus at least 10 losses elsewhere, maybe some in north-east Wales. In a lot of seats it only takes a 2,500 vote shift.
I'm frustrated at the ever increasing use of "community" as in Libyan Community or Muslim Community. I thought we were told to accept diversity and different cultures, it seems certain people don't wish to assimilate at all. These communities, wherever and whoever they are will make themselves increasingly isolated and create greater suspicion. I'm afraid that reprisals are inevitable and as usual its the fault of politicians and their ridiculous social experiments and engineering.
Don't even get me started on Community Leaders.
Who is your community leader ? I've no idea who mine is . Why do some sections of our equal community have these unelected figureheads ?
Religious leaders are figureheads, aren't they? Like it or not they influence some people like Kim K.
I remembered Mr. Sandpit's unlucky loser on No Safety Car at 8 last year. The only reason the 2016 race saw one was because it rained at the start (the race had four VSC periods).
So, I've backed No Safety Car at 6.5.
Also put a tiny, tiny sum on Perez at 126 (each way) to win (and 11 for a podium). He's very good at this sort of circuit and at making tyres last, so if there is a safety car he's likely to be in good shape to take advantage. Plus, Force India has the best reliability of any team.
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
200 ... do you really think so?
I've been assuming that at best for them the loss of 25-30 relatively obvious Midlands and Northern seats will take them near 200.
Plus at least 10 losses elsewhere, maybe some in north-east Wales. In a lot of seats it only takes a 2,500 vote shift.
200 I think is there upper level, if the recent polls are right and not too badly distributed. They'll struggle to get that.
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
I'm getting slightly worried Labour might manage around 200 seats. That could lead to Corbyn staying on - And that really would be a travesty for democracy.
When the dust settles from this attack and the politics restarts May would do well to publically state she is briefing both 'the leader of the opposition Jeremy Corbyn and the shadow home secretary Diane Abbott' on our national security. That will help focus minds like nothing else. Even if you believe in Corbyn's ideology even the most hardened momentum supporters must have doubts regarding Corbyn and Abbott leading the fight on terror in these dark days.
Entirely agree with this, I'm no fan of Amber Rudd, but the thought of Diane Abbott being in her position right now is chilling. People need to understand and see that that is the reality of the tories not gaining a majority
I read through the Prime Minister's words yesterday and they were measured, authoritative, everything you'd expect or want. To be honest, any and every other Prime Minister could have used the same or similar words.
It's not a question of leadership - in that regard, crises like this are easy for the Prime Minister or rather they are politically easy. Psychologically and personally, they will go through the same gamut of emotions internally but externally they have to exude confidence and control. Politically, it's easy because there is no dissent - it's a crime against us all irrespective of our political beliefs and even though I'm no fan of Theresa May, what she said yesterday was the right and proper thing to say.
The disappointing thing is that we have had to go through this again - whatever your opinions of Ken Livingstone and his more recent antics, back in 2005 immediately after 7/7, he was superb. Twelve years on and we are again grieving for the loss of innocent men, women and children - it feels like we have achieved the sum total of bugger all and for that all political leaders have to take some share of the blame along with many others.
The response is predictable - more control, more security, more legislation, more restriction.
Yes it works - I imagine one day we'll find out how many terror plots were thwarted by MI6 and other elements of the Security Services and how close evil came to cities, transport links and shopping centres. The burgeoning cost of that security has become as inviolate as spending on the NHS or, dare one day it, the foreign aid budget.
The security services do a fantastic job and deserve our heartfelt thanks and support and yet I have this nagging sense the "solution" isn't going to be found by building a security wall round our lives and culture. I'm no Doctor (and I'm not going to be the next one) but it seems we continue to treat the symptoms rather than the cause.
Mr. Pulpstar, Ladbrokes does not count VSC as a safety car appearance. If betting elsewhere, might be wise to check but I'd be surprised (and irked) if others counted a VSC.
Edited extra bit: I've not backed this myself, but if you believe there'll be a lap one safety car, Ladbrokes has a special on that at 1.5.
Weather forecast is totally sunny for the entire week around the race.
Countries that are critical of Israel still get hit by terrorists. Israel's existence is a pretext, rather than a real grievance.
It is not their existence but their refusal to accept UN resolutions that causes many in the Arab world (and the world in general) to feel there are double standards. The grievance is very real.
I heard a rare intelligent discussion between Saeb Erekat and Tzipi Livni on French TV. Erekat pointed to the impossibility of getting the Palestinians to recognise Israel's borders including their right to Jerusalem (promised to them by God 3000 years ago) before talks could start while ignoring Israel's refusal to recognise Palestine at all.
Having said that their agreement on many issues was hopeful.
UN Security Council resolutions or General resolutions?
Because the latter are racist, sexist, meaningless, pathetic and not accepted by anyone anywhere, The former cut both ways and Israel is not in violation of many of those.
That is exactly the moronic language and attitude that Erekat and Livni avoided. She seemed to better understand the Palestinians circumstances than you and she conceded that while the extreme right held sway over her government there was little prospect of things moving forward with any speed.
I didn't even discuss the Palestinians circumstances in my post, I was referring to the UN Security Council and General Assembly, so I don't see what in my post was "moronic language or attitude"? You referred to "UN resolutions" but you didn't specify if you meant Security Council or General Assembly. It is you that was sloppy and I'm just calling you out on it.
If you're referring to General Assembly resolutions then Israel is well within its rights to ignore such a racist, sexist and pathetic institution.
I agree. Also, earlier immigrants embraced our society and the second generation were generally more integrated than the first wave. The self imposed isolation of these (muslim) communities needs to be addressed in some way. This has been said many times but nothing happens. The mosques need to be under much greater scrutiny especially when it's been shown that they can hide fund raising for terrorist groups and/or radicalisation.
If the community/mosque alerted the authorities as soon as there was a behaviour change in someone I think a lot of these atrocities could be prevented.
I'm dubious about "scrutiny" of routine religious activity (it sounds like a really boring job with doubtful benefits), but I do agree that, as a Muslim interviewed on Radio 4 yesterday said, it needs to be a priority to encourage people to argue with and if necessary report friends who are flirting with violent activity.
That is so utterly against our instincts that it needs a conscious effort. We've surely all met people who admitted to actually committing some sort of offence and it didn't cross our minds to ring the police about it. And it's not easy to judge when intent is serious. If you had a friend who said "I'd seriously like to shoot that [name a politician], maybe I will one day", you'd probably tell him to stop talking bollocks, but would you dial 999? And if you were in an ethnic group some of whom feel marginalised and under pressure, wouldn't that make it even harder? And if everyone reported every repellent comment, wouldn't that overwhelm the police and also make us too much of a Stasi society?
Perhaps we need something like Childline where people can discuss behaviour by friends and relatives that worries them and whether it's reached the point that the police need to be called in? I honestly don't know what's best - it's just a suggestion.
A thoughtful reply, thanks Nick.
I think the task would be a lot easier if the isolatist nature of muslim communities could be removed. As I said in a subsequent post, no go areas and Sharia courts being regarded as 'normal' is an anathema to normal British society
Are there actually no go areas in Britain? No go to who? The police? Are there Sharia courts?
No go to women, blacks, and gays. No longer bobby's on the beat so the police element doesn't exist. In closed 'communities' Sharia can be the rule of law and there's no recourse to British law because the 'community' is closed. I'll also extend this to the disgusting practice of FGM
He is only saying what many on both sides believe to be the truth. He doesn't imply that it was in any way caused by the government, merely that its timing is electorally helpful. Many Conservatives (you included, perhaps?) will no doubt agree with him and think the same way.
I'm rather boring. I think it makes no difference. I thought May would win big before the bomb. I think May will win big now. Had there not been a bomb, I think May would have won big.
I didn't even think the cock-up over the Dementia Tax would make any difference, in the final analysis. Although watching the PB Tory bedwetting over it was as entertaining as ever!
I find it incomprehensible how those on the left are trying to say that the prime minister is using this for political advantage when people have just lost love ones, children and parents. governments first priority is keeping this country safe and to try and accuse the Prime Minister of playing politics is just sick. Mark Seniors comment yesterday was deplorable. if Labour hadn't picked a leader who is so weak on defending this country and keeping it safe then what is happening at the moment wouldn't be an issue in the general election campaign quite frankly they brought this on themselves by picking such a weak pathetic useless leader who wouldn't even defend this nation or go to war without Russia and Chinas permission at the United Nations. Labour are only reaping what they have sown
What was deplorable of my comment last night ?
All of it, you disgraceful excuse for a human.
Ah another pb conservative with nothing to contribute but personal abuse .
Comments
As @Blue_rog points out with Sharia law, a different system appears to be operating.
The bomber smoked weed, travelled to London, Libya and Syria as a student - who was funding all this and why weren't concerns raised?
The likes of Tommy Whatisname will be stoking up all sorts of trouble.
That is so utterly against our instincts that it needs a conscious effort. We've surely all met people who admitted to actually committing some sort of offence and it didn't cross our minds to ring the police about it. And it's not easy to judge when intent is serious. If you had a friend who said "I'd seriously like to shoot that [name a politician], maybe I will one day", you'd probably tell him to stop talking bollocks, but would you dial 999? And if you were in an ethnic group some of whom feel marginalised and under pressure, wouldn't that make it even harder? And if everyone reported every repellent comment, wouldn't that overwhelm the police and also make us too much of a Stasi society?
Perhaps we need something like Childline where people can discuss behaviour by friends and relatives that worries them and whether it's reached the point that the police need to be called in? I honestly don't know what's best - it's just a suggestion.
Yah boo your mum smells.
If wanting a retrospective graduate tax, why not simply up the higher rate of income tax. Many will be graduates, but others will have benefited from graduates indirectly.
However if the Westminster Bridge/Palace policeman had been armed with a simple automatic pistol he would probably be alive today.
Am told no formal discussion or decision about re-start of election campaign but cd be put on hold "for several days"
43 years ago, the Guildford pub bombings occurred *5 days* before a general election. Then, as now, we had a Tory governmment but I can't remember there being a prolonged suspension:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/october/5/newsid_2492000/2492543.stm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_October_1974
Now it is about 40%.
This is why taxpayers in general can not be expected to pay for people to attend university.
If university numbers were reduced back to 5% then general taxpayers could consider paying again for the most academically talented.
Maybe it would also be advantageous for fewer people to go to university and instead follow technical and vocational courses of more value to the country's economy?
That was absurd, it was outrageous, it was without any basis of evidence, and it was deplorable. Your attempt now to present it as suggesting your comment was about the buck stopping with her is absolute bollocks - you ascribed personal blame to May for the death of children, and that is so far beyond reasonable I find it hard to credit, it is far beyond people going overboard out of emotion in making equivalence with comments of Corbyn and co.
You are intelligent and at times insightful, but you are also probably among the most viciously partisan posters that inhabit this strange place. Many have defended the raising of politics at a time of tragedy, but yours was a personal and without basis attack which your attempt to paint as more reasonable than it was is a nonsense.
And I'll remind your partisan arse that I've never voted Tory (though I have been considering it this time around, in a small part because of how horrible people like you are to people like me who have voted LD but dare to criticise them sometimes), and you act like a paranoid conspiracy loony when you ascribe the motivations of those who attack you entirely to partisan attack, which given how partisan you are is silly.
There have been overreactions and nasty comments around this issue all over, some worse than others, but yours is the only comment I have seen personally blaming May for the attack in a direct fashion, not in a 'the buck stops with her' way as you now pretend, but in a 'this happened because of her' way. There are people banging on about Corbyn and the IRA, people lamenting, obliquely, or celebrating that this might impact the result one way or another, but your comment was vicious, truly truly vicious, and without a foundation entirely unreasonable.
Given the response so far being very different to previous attacks, we have to believe the government have credibly concerns about what might happen and thus require military personnel.
I think the task would be a lot easier if the isolatist nature of muslim communities could be removed. As I said in a subsequent post, no go areas and Sharia courts being regarded as 'normal' is an anathema to normal British society
A pity none of the parties are suggesting that, coupled with ending tuition fees.
I am relatively confident that your Mum does, in fact, smell.
I really fear that we won't see a sensible centre left Labour Party i.e. one I can vote for, if Corbyn exceeds Miliband and Brown GE performance.
In reality, it's fair but unworkable. The alternative - what we have at the moment - is workable, but profoundly unfair.
And don't the kids know it.
I heard a rare intelligent discussion between Saeb Erekat and Tzipi Livni on French TV. Erekat pointed to the impossibility of getting the Palestinians to recognise Israel's borders including their right to Jerusalem (promised to them by God 3000 years ago) before talks could start while ignoring Israel's refusal to recognise Palestine at all.
Having said that their agreement on many issues was hopeful.
Mr. Voter, I agree entirely that campaigning should resume promptly.
Politics now is fine, if people are personall willing to stomach what will be raised hackles and occasional oversteps, by the way. Difficult times, require difficult questioning sometimes. But accusations for partisan advantage, and such vicious ones?
"three Muslims, a black woman, a gay white man, and a second generation Spanish immigrant" ?
Because the latter are racist, sexist, meaningless, pathetic and not accepted by anyone anywhere, The former cut both ways and Israel is not in violation of many of those.
The campaign pause was agreed between Con, Lab and Lib Dem. It is not a partisan decision.
The incompatible facts are: (1) a significant group of Arabs do not accept Israel's right to exist; (2) Israel, in order to give itself physical security, imposes restrictions on Arabs that contravene expected norms of polite society. The two feed directly to each other. Throwing God into the mix doesn't help either.
Intelligence and security co-operation is done, at least partly, through bodies which we're members of due to being in the EU. Rejoining them post-leaving the EU requires an agreement, which can only happen if there *is* an agreement. If the EU demands onerous, unacceptable conditions and no agreement is reached then we'll leave those organisations simply as a matter of course.
A proper agreement is in everyone's interest. The idea the EU is fine to threaten us economically but that the UK must provide security and defence support as a matter of course is nonsensical.
Mr. Pulpstar, I agree. In that situation, the PLP should split and form a new party.
Are there Sharia courts?
https://fullfact.org/law/uks-sharia-courts/
If you graduated in 1976 then you have been employed for 41 years already. How much tax have you paid over those 41 years? You've probably repaid your uni costs many, many times over already - something today's generation won't necessarily via the tax system precisely because they're not getting the highly paid jobs that your generation did.
Seems a very expensive excerise, and won't raise a huge amount.
Betting PostI remembered Mr. Sandpit's unlucky loser on No Safety Car at 8 last year. The only reason the 2016 race saw one was because it rained at the start (the race had four VSC periods).
So, I've backed No Safety Car at 6.5.
Also put a tiny, tiny sum on Perez at 126 (each way) to win (and 11 for a podium). He's very good at this sort of circuit and at making tyres last, so if there is a safety car he's likely to be in good shape to take advantage. Plus, Force India has the best reliability of any team.
I've been assuming that at best for them the loss of 25-30 relatively obvious Midlands and Northern seats will take them near 200.
Plus at least 10 losses elsewhere, maybe some in north-east Wales. In a lot of seats it only takes a 2,500 vote shift.
https://youtu.be/82CmJlf-Deg
It's not a question of leadership - in that regard, crises like this are easy for the Prime Minister or rather they are politically easy. Psychologically and personally, they will go through the same gamut of emotions internally but externally they have to exude confidence and control. Politically, it's easy because there is no dissent - it's a crime against us all irrespective of our political beliefs and even though I'm no fan of Theresa May, what she said yesterday was the right and proper thing to say.
The disappointing thing is that we have had to go through this again - whatever your opinions of Ken Livingstone and his more recent antics, back in 2005 immediately after 7/7, he was superb. Twelve years on and we are again grieving for the loss of innocent men, women and children - it feels like we have achieved the sum total of bugger all and for that all political leaders have to take some share of the blame along with many others.
The response is predictable - more control, more security, more legislation, more restriction.
Yes it works - I imagine one day we'll find out how many terror plots were thwarted by MI6 and other elements of the Security Services and how close evil came to cities, transport links and shopping centres. The burgeoning cost of that security has become as inviolate as spending on the NHS or, dare one day it, the foreign aid budget.
The security services do a fantastic job and deserve our heartfelt thanks and support and yet I have this nagging sense the "solution" isn't going to be found by building a security wall round our lives and culture. I'm no Doctor (and I'm not going to be the next one) but it seems we continue to treat the symptoms rather than the cause.
Edited extra bit: I've not backed this myself, but if you believe there'll be a lap one safety car, Ladbrokes has a special on that at 1.5.
Weather forecast is totally sunny for the entire week around the race.
If you're referring to General Assembly resolutions then Israel is well within its rights to ignore such a racist, sexist and pathetic institution.
Well, since yesterday..
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/22/jeremy-corbyn-plans-to-speak-to-families-of-ira-hyde-park-bombing-victims