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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The pressure on the President heralds the return of Marf

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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,368
    ydoethur said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    Only if Pence suffers an incapacitating or fatal misfortune at roughly the same time.

    Remember - impeach Trump, get Pence.

    This is why Clinton despite being somewhat less corrupt and irresponsible would in practice have been in more danger than Trump of being removed. Tim Kaine may not be a great campaigner but he would make a half-decent president.
    Yes, and I think for that reason, Ydoe, the Dems won't want him to go too soon.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Scott_P said:

    @STVNews: Exclusive: Labour are in talks with the Conservatives over two more council deals in Scotland… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/864885528935751681

    I probably could not vote Labour in Scotland.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Browsing the Guardian and I've noticed that their logo seems to omit the UKIP colors but includes the green colors, despite UKIP getting more votes than them at the last election. So much for fair and balanced.. :p

    You seem to be writing American. its COLOURS
    Blame my iPhone.... I should set it to British. I do try to make the effort to spot the american spellings though.
    you should!
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Scott_P said:

    calum said:

    Ruth D uncharcteriscly `quiet - you're starting to see why SNP keep defying gravity !

    Just retweeted this

    @CllrTomMason: Very proud to have been elected as Deputy Provost of @AberdeenCC. I look forward to working hard on behalf of all Aberdonians.
    Ruth senses trouble - otherwise she'd be all over Kez.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,319
    Is there final confirmation of who is on the ITV leaders debate tomorrow night?

    Programme is still 2 hours - if it's just LD, UKIP, Green, SNP and PC that is going to be a long 2 hours.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,476
    edited May 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sky news vox pops in wells and Yeovil not very keen on lib dem policy of another vote.

    Two friends of mine who were planning to vote Lib Dem switched to the Greens today over the 2nd referendum pledge. And they both detest Brexit.

    I'm not joking. And, no, I don't understand it.

    They just think Farron is a joke and not serious.
    That'll be because Farron is a joke, and not serious.

    If I were in North Norfolk, I think I'd vote Lamb. IIRC, he voted to serve the Article 50 notification.
    He abstained.

    Farron is wrong with his second referendum promise. Should have gone for EEA membership.
    I agree. It would have satisfied the terms of the referendum. It would have enabled the LDs to say that they were putting safety first. And in Leave-y seats they could have said that Brexit is a process not a step function. It would also have enabled the LDs to pin the blame for the next recession (whatever the ultimate cause) on the government not going down the EEA route. Lamb fronting that message might have gotten the LDs into the mid to high teens.
    Surely the crucial point about the 2nd referendum is that now Article 50 has been served whatever the result, even if the vote was to stay in, we are now leaving. It would require the unanimous agreement of all countries to reverse our application to leave and there would be bound to be an arch-federal figure in e.g. Luxembourg who would block it out of spite.

    So it's utterly pointless and might actually lead to a no-deal Brexit.
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Great to see Marf back, she once sent me an original cartoon unexpectedly though the post, a lovely gesture.
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    HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    calum said:

    Scott_P said:

    calum said:

    Ruth D uncharcteriscly `quiet - you're starting to see why SNP keep defying gravity !

    Just retweeted this

    @CllrTomMason: Very proud to have been elected as Deputy Provost of @AberdeenCC. I look forward to working hard on behalf of all Aberdonians.
    Ruth senses trouble - otherwise she'd be all over Kez.
    Attacking Kezia will stop the deals happening completely.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Browsing the Guardian and I've noticed that their logo seems to omit the UKIP colors but includes the green colors, despite UKIP getting more votes than them at the last election. So much for fair and balanced.. :p

    You seem to be writing American. its COLOURS
    Blame my iPhone.... I should set it to British. I do try to make the effort to spot the american spellings though.
    you should!
    I will drink 10 cups of tea today as punishment.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,899

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @STVNews: Exclusive: Labour are in talks with the Conservatives over two more council deals in Scotland… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/864885528935751681

    I probably could not vote Labour in Scotland.
    You support indy now, right? I suppose the fiefdom is no longer providing 40+ Labour seats, so it can be lopped off as deadweight.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154

    Philip Hammond tells me that the Black Hole in Labour's Manifesto is £58 billion.

    In a single year.

    Boy, are the Tories going to have some fun with that document.....

    Hammond is talking shite.
    Surely, it's not MORE than £58 billion?
    I don't think the $58 billion includes the pre-existing deficit or knock on effects of crashing the economy so yes it would be.
    I'm certain Labour would find servicing its debt FAR more expensive than the current Chancellor. That hasn't been costed by Labour. They just blithely assume that Mr Market, despite being persona non grata to Labour, is just going to roll over and wait for its tummy to be tickled.

    Who ran Labour's number - Diane Abbot?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    And now, as no-one asked for, some long rambling thoughts on the LD manifesto, section by section.

    YOUR CHANCE TO CHANGE BRITAIN’S FUTURE BY CHANING THE OPPOSITION
    Simultaneously realistic and overly optimistic. Attacking May and Corbyn, recognising May is going to win, but also hoping the LDs are going to be able to make the LDs the official opposition. It’s not a bad opening, but seeing how things look to be going for them, its hopeful tone makes me sad for the party. Lots of manifesto does act like they will be in government though.

    PROTECT BRITAIN’S PLACE IN EUROPE
    Forward says that campaigning to be the opposition, but then says here they LDs will a Brexit to deal to a vote, presuming they will be in government, or powerful enough to force that option (with a rejoin choice)?

    Very clear on priorities, although obviously what they want is to stay.

    SAVE OUR NHS AND SOCIAL CARE SERVICES
    Yet Labour and Conservative politicians refuse to be honest with the public about the scale of the crisis or the tough decisions which are needed to protect these vital services - Maybe, but they never reward you, do they?

    Some funding stuff, which is better than none.

    End public sector pay freeze for NHS workers? I presume not the rest of us then, diff from Labour.

    Protect whistleblowers? Isn’t this already supposed to be the case?

    Lots of points on mental health

    Feels like a bigger emphasis on health than Labour’s even.

    PUT CHILDREN FIRST
    Some bits I’m clear on the cost, some not.

    Introduce a fairer national funding system with a protection for all schools, so that no school loses money – not a single one? Bold promise

    Going after free schools – feels like less of an issue than a few years ago, but presumably still has some appeal

    ‘Slimmed down core national curriculum’ which they state includes PSHE – we hated PSHE when I was at school, a lot of it was useless nonsense.

    Going heavy on LGBT + issues (incidentally, that’s a better acronym than LGBTIQA+, which I have seen)

    Aim to meet all basic skills needs including literacy, numeracy and digital skills by 2030 – from the school of ‘who would object to that?’ policies

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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,368
    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    This was discussed at some length on an earlier thread.

    Briefly, the legal side of it is almost an irrelevance. It's his popularity rating that matters. It's currently in the low fourties. That's bad but not critical. If it gets down to 35% or lower, he's in trouble. Or to put it another way, if he starts losing the Republican base, he's....well, toast!
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Maxine Peake, a much overrated and overused actor.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,476

    ydoethur said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    Only if Pence suffers an incapacitating or fatal misfortune at roughly the same time.

    Remember - impeach Trump, get Pence.

    This is why Clinton despite being somewhat less corrupt and irresponsible would in practice have been in more danger than Trump of being removed. Tim Kaine may not be a great campaigner but he would make a half-decent president.
    Yes, and I think for that reason, Ydoe, the Dems won't want him to go too soon.
    For those in doubt - I know it does cause confusion - the correct spelling of my user name is 'Y Doethur' (pronounced, roughly, uh DOY theer).

    On your substantive point, I can't see what the Democrats gain from trying to force Trump out. They look like sore losers, they don't have the numbers to do it, and if by some miracle they did manage it, they'd get someone far worse.

    If there is a move against him it will surely be from the Republicans (who do not have quite the same reasons to hate Pence although by all accounts they don't love him) and it will require something fairly substantial and unambiguously criminal.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    kle4 said:

    And now, as no-one asked for, some long rambling thoughts on the LD manifesto, section by section.

    https://twitter.com/lj_skipper/status/864908789652312069
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    BUILD AN ECONOMY THAT WORKS FOR YOU
    An acknowledgment ‘the coalition’ did good work that the conservatives are undermining.

    Eliminate deficit on ‘day to day spending’ by 2020 – same as Labour policy just upped by 2 years

    ‘Responsible and realistic’ £100 billion package of infrastructure investment – surely Labour would argue their 250 billion is responsible and realistic too?

    Hyperfast broadband rollout – didn’t Labour promise ‘ultrafast’? One is definitely different than the current superfast, is hyper the same as ultra?

    Also commit to HS2

    Awful lot of mention of this 1p rise in income tax, how much can this pay for?

    Conduct a full-scale review into the burden of taxation and spending between generations to ensure that government policy promotes fairness between generations I don’t know what this means.

    Stamp out ‘abuse’ of zero hour contracts, not just get rid of them – halfway measure, unlikely to appeal to many I’d think

    ‘1.7 million people without a bank account’ !!!!!

    Northern powerhouse – I guess someone besides Osborne still cares about this

    More devolution – if it is to be as scatter gun as the Tories and the coalition, no thanks

    KEEP OUR COUNTRY GREEN
    Eighteen months ago, it seemed that the world had come to a consensus on the need to take the perils of climate change seriously Did it? You blame Brexit and trump for altering this, but all I remember is a lot of talk.

    Five new laws on Green issues already listed too – sounds well thought out, no idea if it is, obvious play for, well, Green vote. Which rather presumes most Greens are most exercised by green issues rather than socialism.

    Suspending neonicotinoids? Well you’ve lost my vote!

    Trying for farmer and fisher vote.

    charge on disposable coffe cups. Yeah, probably a good idea in fairness.

    SUPPORT FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES
    Childcare extension – labour promising more?

    balancing the books on the backs of the poor and disabled, and demonising people who claim benefits, is neither acceptable nor responsible - I’m sure that’s not what Tories think they are doing

    Bedroom tax and two child policy seems fair to me, but most on the left hate them. Don’t recall if Labour mentioned the latter.

    Triple lock, smart politics like Labour – but only Labour could be in government to protect it, so no reason to vote LD

    Garden cities rather than ‘new towns’ from Labour. Still good idea

    ‘Dramatically’ reduce power of ministers to interfere in local government. How? What do they do now? Most people are confused by what their council provides and the government

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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,438
    While I was at the Lib Dem manifesto launch this evening I was pondering why Tim was not appearing to come over with appropriate gravitas to the public at large.

    I think it is because he speaks with enthusiasm and passion but too quickly. A slightly more measured approach may allow him to come over more effectively.
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    PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    If it looked like over 2/3 of the Senate would vote for impeachment, I'd assume he would walk rather than make them actually do it, which would accelerate the timeline.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    It's hard to think of a more suicidal strategy

    @CarsonsCat: Kezia to Tories in ES: Please, please vote for Ian Murray. Kezia to Labour councillors: You're sacked if you go into coalition with Tories.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,899
    Snowflake Trump claims to be the "most mistreated politician ever":
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/05/17/trump_to_coast_guard_no_politician_in_history_has_been_treated_worse.html

    Which implies that he believes Abe Lincoln, MLK, JFK etc had it coming ?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    While I was at the Lib Dem manifesto launch this evening I was pondering why Tim was not appearing to come over with appropriate gravitas to the public at large.

    I think it is because he speaks with enthusiasm and passion but too quickly. A slightly more measured approach may allow him to come over more effectively.

    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/864900651163234304
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,971
    edited May 2017
    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    The Democrats are going to want to keep him in place until the mid terms, and the Republicans are going to want to concentrate on getting their agenda through before they may lose control of the House.

    Neither wants the distraction of trying to upend the President, who only just got elected and, while rather unconventional in his methods (to put it mildly) still has the support of the majority of those who voted for him only six months ago.

    The 25th Amendment route is unprecedented, and designed for a situation where the President is suddenly incapacitated. They'd need to have clear medical evidence of a mental illness to think about going there.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154

    While I was at the Lib Dem manifesto launch this evening I was pondering why Tim was not appearing to come over with appropriate gravitas to the public at large.

    I think it is because he speaks with enthusiasm and passion but too quickly. A slightly more measured approach may allow him to come over more effectively.

    Where has his media training been these past two years?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    DEFEND RIGHTS, PROMOTE JUSTICE AND QUALITIES
    Positive case for immigration – I doubt they’ll be rewarded for the stance, but it is differentiation.

    At times the manifesto talks like the LDs will be in government, at other times not – ‘will vote against’ attempts to scrap Human Rights Act but ‘will strengthen’ the commitment to internal human rights law.

    Decriminalise the sale and purchase of sex, and the management of sex work – easy to make fun of, but feels more liberal

    Outlaw caste discrimination? Is that a thing here?

    What is so flawed about the Prevent scheme? What about your proposed replacement will work better?

    Notify innocent people placed under surveillance? Rather defeats the point doesn’t it, and isn’t everyone innocent until convicted?

    Oppose attempts to undermine encryption

    Remove students from migration stats – aren’t the Tories and Labour also now promising to do the same?

    MAKE A BETTER WORLD
    Liberals have been challenged by the vote to leave the EU – so not caring about the third of LDs who voted Leave, huh? The decision must be illiberal.

    Far less woolly on potential intervention

    Quite a positive section, on attempts to help worldwide – realistic?

    FIX A BROKEN SYSTEM
    Votes at 16 as well. Fine, but reduce driniking age etc

    STV – no promise on referendum first, but if they can win a majority (ha), that’s fair

    What do they mean by reform HoL to have a democratic mandate exactly?

    Devolution on demand in England, eg erratic and a la carte devolution that makes no sense

    Cancelling boundary review, but with new voting system makes sense I guess – they want great flexibility to deviate from equal boundaries though.

    BAME and LGBT shortlists – I’m not a fan of shortlists, and as has been noted, our parliament is already the gayest in the world, with SNP, Labour and the Tories in the top 11 worldwide. It’s clearly not a problem for them.

    Mandate leaders’ debates

    MP job sharing arrangements? What on earth does that mean? If you’re elected to serve, you serve.

    Bit more stuff on Scotland, wales and NI than Labour, even accounting for separate manifestos
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    edited May 2017
    CONCLUSION
    Not a bad design. Easier to read even if very long, more summaries, headings and bullet points, priorities very clear.

    COMPARISON
    It’s more focused in each section than Labour’s, better presented, though also with a wider focus overall rather than worker’s rights and investment. Less grandiose and rambling. Some attacks om the opening on labour, and sprinklings of criticism of tory policies throughout, but far less aggressive.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,476
    Nigelb said:

    Snowflake Trump claims to be the "most mistreated politician ever":
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2017/05/17/trump_to_coast_guard_no_politician_in_history_has_been_treated_worse.html

    Which implies that he believes Abe Lincoln, MLK, JFK etc had it coming ?

    MLK wasn't exactly a politician, was he?

    That being said you could make a fairly good case that Trump isn't either!
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited May 2017
    MikeL said:

    Is there final confirmation of who is on the ITV leaders debate tomorrow night?

    Programme is still 2 hours - if it's just LD, UKIP, Green, SNP and PC that is going to be a long 2 hours.

    Basically an immense borefest in which two leaders of regional parties that don't stand in over 90% of the country gang up with leaders of two more (weak and marginal) leftist parties, to lampoon the hapless leader of a dying right-wing party.

    Of interest to none but a handful of really serious political anoraks. Don't know why they're bothering TBH.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    MikeL said:

    Is there final confirmation of who is on the ITV leaders debate tomorrow night?

    Programme is still 2 hours - if it's just LD, UKIP, Green, SNP and PC that is going to be a long 2 hours.

    That's five of the seven. Grumpy and Sleepy busy tomorrow night I guess?
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    OUTOUT Posts: 569
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @STVNews: Exclusive: Labour are in talks with the Conservatives over two more council deals in Scotland… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/864885528935751681

    I probably could not vote Labour in Scotland.
    You do know that these deals existed prior to this week?
    Only difference in Aberdeen is the nature of the deal.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited May 2017
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    The Democrats are going to want to keep him in place until the mid terms, and the Republicans are going to want to concentrate on getting their agenda through before they may lose control of the House.

    Neither wants the distraction of trying to upend the President, who only just got elected and, while rather unconventional in his methods (to put it mildly) still has the support of the majority of those who voted for him six months ago.
    I'm not sure the Democrats are going to want to get him replaced after the midterms either. Sure they may try but it will be halfhearted and for show. Once the midterms are out of the way Trump is likely to be the lamest of ducks and the Democrats will be concentrating on getting Trump replaced with one of their own at 2020 election, not getting Trump replaced by Pence in a 2019 impeachment.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,899
    PaulM said:

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    If it looked like over 2/3 of the Senate would vote for impeachment, I'd assume he would walk rather than make them actually do it, which would accelerate the timeline.
    With any other politician, of course. With Trump ..... who knows ?
    Even Nixon respected political conventions from time to time. Trump, not so much.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    kle4 said:

    And now, as no-one asked for, some long rambling thoughts on the LD manifesto, section by section.

    YOUR CHANCE TO CHANGE BRITAIN’S FUTURE BY CHANING THE OPPOSITION
    Simultaneously realistic and overly optimistic. Attacking May and Corbyn, recognising May is going to win, but also hoping the LDs are going to be able to make the LDs the official opposition. It’s not a bad opening, but seeing how things look to be going for them, its hopeful tone makes me sad for the party. Lots of manifesto does act like they will be in government though.

    PROTECT BRITAIN’S PLACE IN EUROPE
    Forward says that campaigning to be the opposition, but then says here they LDs will a Brexit to deal to a vote, presuming they will be in government, or powerful enough to force that option (with a rejoin choice)?

    Very clear on priorities, although obviously what they want is to stay.

    SAVE OUR NHS AND SOCIAL CARE SERVICES
    Yet Labour and Conservative politicians refuse to be honest with the public about the scale of the crisis or the tough decisions which are needed to protect these vital services - Maybe, but they never reward you, do they?

    Some funding stuff, which is better than none.

    End public sector pay freeze for NHS workers? I presume not the rest of us then, diff from Labour.

    Protect whistleblowers? Isn’t this already supposed to be the case?

    Lots of points on mental health

    Feels like a bigger emphasis on health than Labour’s even.

    PUT CHILDREN FIRST
    Some bits I’m clear on the cost, some not.

    Introduce a fairer national funding system with a protection for all schools, so that no school loses money – not a single one? Bold promise

    Going after free schools – feels like less of an issue than a few years ago, but presumably still has some appeal

    ‘Slimmed down core national curriculum’ which they state includes PSHE – we hated PSHE when I was at school, a lot of it was useless nonsense.

    Going heavy on LGBT + issues (incidentally, that’s a better acronym than LGBTIQA+, which I have seen)

    Aim to meet all basic skills needs including literacy, numeracy and digital skills by 2030 – from the school of ‘who would object to that?’ policies

    In fairness 1p on tax for the NHS is at least a step towards honesty with the electorate given an aging population.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    This was discussed at some length on an earlier thread.

    Briefly, the legal side of it is almost an irrelevance. It's his popularity rating that matters. It's currently in the low fourties. That's bad but not critical. If it gets down to 35% or lower, he's in trouble. Or to put it another way, if he starts losing the Republican base, he's....well, toast!
    Interesting feature of Favourability ratings. As his general Favourability goes down it could well increase amongst Republicans as US Favourability polls use self identification rather than previous vote. So as Trump makes more and more Republicans identify as Independent instead his Favourability amongst Republicans will stay high and maybe gen increase.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,368
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    Only if Pence suffers an incapacitating or fatal misfortune at roughly the same time.

    Remember - impeach Trump, get Pence.

    This is why Clinton despite being somewhat less corrupt and irresponsible would in practice have been in more danger than Trump of being removed. Tim Kaine may not be a great campaigner but he would make a half-decent president.
    Yes, and I think for that reason, Ydoe, the Dems won't want him to go too soon.
    For those in doubt - I know it does cause confusion - the correct spelling of my user name is 'Y Doethur' (pronounced, roughly, uh DOY theer).

    On your substantive point, I can't see what the Democrats gain from trying to force Trump out. They look like sore losers, they don't have the numbers to do it, and if by some miracle they did manage it, they'd get someone far worse.

    If there is a move against him it will surely be from the Republicans (who do not have quite the same reasons to hate Pence although by all accounts they don't love him) and it will require something fairly substantial and unambiguously criminal.
    It's a habit of mine to play with people's usernames but if it caused offence I'm sorry and won't do it again....with you, anyway!

    Yes, it's a cat-and-mouse game now. I think he will go, in due course, but the timing is crucial for the kind of reasons you give. The Dems would love him to hang around until the mid-terms. The GOP would like him to go either now or in about three years time. In view of their majorities, the GOP seem to me to have the greater control of the timetable, but if his popularity continues to plummet, that control will slip out of their hands and they will be forced to move.

    All tricky stuff, but I think the betting angle is easy. Lay him on the 2020 market. I think he's bound to be gone before that.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    Scott_P said:

    kle4 said:

    And now, as no-one asked for, some long rambling thoughts on the LD manifesto, section by section.

    https://twitter.com/lj_skipper/status/864908789652312069
    Politicians, stop stop stop doing speeches in front of a crowd of people - no matter how great you are, there will be someone who looks bored, angry or insane.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scott_P said:

    It's hard to think of a more suicidal strategy

    @CarsonsCat: Kezia to Tories in ES: Please, please vote for Ian Murray. Kezia to Labour councillors: You're sacked if you go into coalition with Tories.

    But the voters she has left are those would never vote Conservative so she is caught between a rock and a hard place.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    @STVNews: Exclusive: Labour are in talks with the Conservatives over two more council deals in Scotland… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/864885528935751681

    I probably could not vote Labour in Scotland.
    You support indy now, right? I suppose the fiefdom is no longer providing 40+ Labour seats, so it can be lopped off as deadweight.
    At least, weako Kezia is putting her foot down - about two years too late. Coalition with the Tories . What next ?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    Scott_P said:

    @STVNews: Exclusive: Labour are in talks with the Conservatives over two more council deals in Scotland… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/864885528935751681

    Good. Local cooperation is a wonderful thing.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,368
    Alistair said:

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    This was discussed at some length on an earlier thread.

    Briefly, the legal side of it is almost an irrelevance. It's his popularity rating that matters. It's currently in the low fourties. That's bad but not critical. If it gets down to 35% or lower, he's in trouble. Or to put it another way, if he starts losing the Republican base, he's....well, toast!
    Interesting feature of Favourability ratings. As his general Favourability goes down it could well increase amongst Republicans as US Favourability polls use self identification rather than previous vote. So as Trump makes more and more Republicans identify as Independent instead his Favourability amongst Republicans will stay high and maybe gen increase.
    But the GOP will still have to make a call as to when he has simply become too toxic, no?
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,368

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    More of a 'no tanks in Baghdad' moment, isn't it?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,476

    It's a habit of mine to play with people's usernames but if it caused offence I'm sorry and won't do it again....with you, anyway!

    Not in the least. I thought you were unsure where to split it and was trying to be helpful.

    Yes, it's a cat-and-mouse game now. I think he will go, in due course, but the timing is crucial for the kind of reasons you give. The Dems would love him to hang around until the mid-terms. The GOP would like him to go either now or in about three years time. In view of their majorities, the GOP seem to me to have the greater control of the timetable, but if his popularity continues to plummet, that control will slip out of their hands and they will be forced to move.

    All tricky stuff, but I think the betting angle is easy. Lay him on the 2020 market. I think he's bound to be gone before that.

    I certainly would be very surprised indeed if he is still in office on 1st February 2021. The question is whether a Republican will be elected after he withdraws or he is defeated by a Democrat. There isn't an obvious pathway for either at the moment.
  • Options
    kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    edited May 2017

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    is he comical Ali :)
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,476
    edited May 2017

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    This Liberal Democrat policy on legalising weed. Has it been brought in early just for senior figures in the Labour Party?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    kjohnw said:

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    is he comical Ali
    He is not amusing.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,899

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    This was discussed at some length on an earlier thread.

    Briefly, the legal side of it is almost an irrelevance. It's his popularity rating that matters. It's currently in the low fourties. That's bad but not critical. If it gets down to 35% or lower, he's in trouble. Or to put it another way, if he starts losing the Republican base, he's....well, toast!
    I knòw, I was there . :-)
    I don't agree that the legal aspect is irrelevant. The Senate in particular is not going to impeach a President without pretty solid grounds, however unpopular he might be. The unpopularity is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition, IMO.
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,368

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    The Democrats are going to want to keep him in place until the mid terms, and the Republicans are going to want to concentrate on getting their agenda through before they may lose control of the House.

    Neither wants the distraction of trying to upend the President, who only just got elected and, while rather unconventional in his methods (to put it mildly) still has the support of the majority of those who voted for him six months ago.
    I'm not sure the Democrats are going to want to get him replaced after the midterms either. Sure they may try but it will be halfhearted and for show. Once the midterms are out of the way Trump is likely to be the lamest of ducks and the Democrats will be concentrating on getting Trump replaced with one of their own at 2020 election, not getting Trump replaced by Pence in a 2019 impeachment.
    Makes sense.

    Maybe the GOP would impeach him to get Pence in by 2019.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    MikeL said:

    Is there final confirmation of who is on the ITV leaders debate tomorrow night?

    Programme is still 2 hours - if it's just LD, UKIP, Green, SNP and PC that is going to be a long 2 hours.

    Basically an immense borefest in which two leaders of regional parties that don't stand in over 90% of the country gang up with leaders of two more (weak and marginal) leftist parties, to lampoon the hapless leader of a dying right-wing party.

    Of interest to none but a handful of really serious political anoraks. Don't know why they're bothering TBH.
    I wonder how big the viewership will be?

    There may be some relatively low enjoyment voters who don't realise May and Corbyn are not going to appear.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @STVNews: Exclusive: Labour are in talks with the Conservatives over two more council deals in Scotland… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/864885528935751681

    Good. Local cooperation is a wonderful thing.
    As is local hunger for power...... After all, how else are they going to taste it?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079

    MikeL said:

    Is there final confirmation of who is on the ITV leaders debate tomorrow night?

    Programme is still 2 hours - if it's just LD, UKIP, Green, SNP and PC that is going to be a long 2 hours.

    Basically an immense borefest in which two leaders of regional parties that don't stand in over 90% of the country gang up with leaders of two more (weak and marginal) leftist parties, to lampoon the hapless leader of a dying right-wing party.

    Of interest to none but a handful of really serious political anoraks. Don't know why they're bothering TBH.
    You're certainly not selling me on it, I hope they advertise it better than that!
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,368
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    This was discussed at some length on an earlier thread.

    Briefly, the legal side of it is almost an irrelevance. It's his popularity rating that matters. It's currently in the low fourties. That's bad but not critical. If it gets down to 35% or lower, he's in trouble. Or to put it another way, if he starts losing the Republican base, he's....well, toast!
    I knòw, I was there . :-)
    I don't agree that the legal aspect is irrelevant. The Senate in particular is not going to impeach a President without pretty solid grounds, however unpopular he might be. The unpopularity is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition, IMO.
    Lol! So you were. Apologies, but I was trying to be brief. That's my excuse anyway.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    kle4 said:

    At times the manifesto talks like the LDs will be in government, at other times not

    Nostalgia for the coalition years.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    This was discussed at some length on an earlier thread.

    Briefly, the legal side of it is almost an irrelevance. It's his popularity rating that matters. It's currently in the low fourties. That's bad but not critical. If it gets down to 35% or lower, he's in trouble. Or to put it another way, if he starts losing the Republican base, he's....well, toast!
    Interesting feature of Favourability ratings. As his general Favourability goes down it could well increase amongst Republicans as US Favourability polls use self identification rather than previous vote. So as Trump makes more and more Republicans identify as Independent instead his Favourability amongst Republicans will stay high and maybe gen increase.
    But the GOP will still have to make a call as to when he has simply become too toxic, no?
    Sure, Trump's popularity amongst the GOP is critical. But if he's actually eroding the base of then the headline Favourability figure is a false signal which is what we care about for betting purpoises. In a worst case situation Trump might have 100% Favourability amongst self identifying Republicans but there's only 4 of them left.
  • Options
    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    It must take some serially strong media training, to be able to say that with a strate face.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,899

    MikeL said:

    Is there final confirmation of who is on the ITV leaders debate tomorrow night?

    Programme is still 2 hours - if it's just LD, UKIP, Green, SNP and PC that is going to be a long 2 hours.

    Basically an immense borefest in which two leaders of regional parties that don't stand in over 90% of the country gang up with leaders of two more (weak and marginal) leftist parties, to lampoon the hapless leader of a dying right-wing party.

    Of interest to none but a handful of really serious political anoraks. Don't know why they're bothering TBH.
    Sounds like a potential contender for next year's Turner Prize.

  • Options
    bobajobPBbobajobPB Posts: 1,042
    Donald Trump.

    Only for the PB Trumptons.

    Only on PB.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @AidanKerrTweets: Labour's #GE2017 candidate for Aberdeen South tweets his support for the decision to suspend the entire city's Labo… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/864931225609351168
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    ydoethur said:

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    This Liberal Democrat policy on legalising weed. Has it been brought in early just for senior figures in the Labour Party?
    If only. Were they all to simply doss down in a squat somewhere and get stoned then they wouldn't be able to do any more damage.
    kjohnw said:

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    is he comical Ali :)
    I think Comical Ali had more gravitas TBH.

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    More of a 'no tanks in Baghdad' moment, isn't it?
    I wonder if we're going to get a list of the target seats that are going to fall to Labour's victorious legions?

    Stevenage? Basingstoke? Huntingdon?
  • Options
    bobajobPBbobajobPB Posts: 1,042
    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    Is there final confirmation of who is on the ITV leaders debate tomorrow night?

    Programme is still 2 hours - if it's just LD, UKIP, Green, SNP and PC that is going to be a long 2 hours.

    Basically an immense borefest in which two leaders of regional parties that don't stand in over 90% of the country gang up with leaders of two more (weak and marginal) leftist parties, to lampoon the hapless leader of a dying right-wing party.

    Of interest to none but a handful of really serious political anoraks. Don't know why they're bothering TBH.
    Sounds like a potential contender for next year's Turner Prize.

    Chortle.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    bobajobPB said:

    Donald Trump.

    Only for the PB Trumptons.

    Only on PB.

    What have they said this time?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,908
    BBC announces if you post content on its sites it doesn't like, it will report you to your boss. Yes, seriously.

    Wonder what Mrs BJ will do when the BBC contact her!!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,899

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    This was discussed at some length on an earlier thread.

    Briefly, the legal side of it is almost an irrelevance. It's his popularity rating that matters. It's currently in the low fourties. That's bad but not critical. If it gets down to 35% or lower, he's in trouble. Or to put it another way, if he starts losing the Republican base, he's....well, toast!
    I knòw, I was there . :-)
    I don't agree that the legal aspect is irrelevant. The Senate in particular is not going to impeach a President without pretty solid grounds, however unpopular he might be. The unpopularity is a necessary, but not sufficient, condition, IMO.
    Lol! So you were. Apologies, but I was trying to be brief. That's my excuse anyway.
    No problem.

    Sometimes I doubt my own existence...

  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    kle4 said:

    MikeL said:

    Is there final confirmation of who is on the ITV leaders debate tomorrow night?

    Programme is still 2 hours - if it's just LD, UKIP, Green, SNP and PC that is going to be a long 2 hours.

    Basically an immense borefest in which two leaders of regional parties that don't stand in over 90% of the country gang up with leaders of two more (weak and marginal) leftist parties, to lampoon the hapless leader of a dying right-wing party.

    Of interest to none but a handful of really serious political anoraks. Don't know why they're bothering TBH.
    You're certainly not selling me on it, I hope they advertise it better than that!
    Nearly everything on ITV is dross. I expect this to be no exception.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    edited May 2017


    I think Comical Ali had more gravitas TBH.

    MvDonnell's comparatively better gravitas is one reason he is worse than Corbyn.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,756
    It looks like the audience had to get sozzled on Peroni before the Farronite 451 took to the stage.

    Audience member: "We're on 9 seats at the moment. The only way is up." I wouldn't be so sure.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079
    BigRich said:

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    It must take some serially strong media training, to be able to say that with a strate face.
    You cannot teach that level of will power.
  • Options
    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,368
    ydoethur said:

    It's a habit of mine to play with people's usernames but if it caused offence I'm sorry and won't do it again....with you, anyway!

    Not in the least. I thought you were unsure where to split it and was trying to be helpful.

    Yes, it's a cat-and-mouse game now. I think he will go, in due course, but the timing is crucial for the kind of reasons you give. The Dems would love him to hang around until the mid-terms. The GOP would like him to go either now or in about three years time. In view of their majorities, the GOP seem to me to have the greater control of the timetable, but if his popularity continues to plummet, that control will slip out of their hands and they will be forced to move.

    All tricky stuff, but I think the betting angle is easy. Lay him on the 2020 market. I think he's bound to be gone before that.

    I certainly would be very surprised indeed if he is still in office on 1st February 2021. The question is whether a Republican will be elected after he withdraws or he is defeated by a Democrat. There isn't an obvious pathway for either at the moment.
    Thanks. I have lived in Wales so have some idea of the language, but I'll do you the courtesy of the full moniker in future.

    Very hard to predict anything to do with Trump. I only just about got my nuts out of the fire in time when he won the Presidency, so I wouldn't risk too much on his impeachment. I think he will go early one way or another though. The US surely can't cope with the instability, and maybe he can't either.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,971
    edited May 2017

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    The Democrats are going to want to keep him in place until the mid terms, and the Republicans are going to want to concentrate on getting their agenda through before they may lose control of the House.

    Neither wants the distraction of trying to upend the President, who only just got elected and, while rather unconventional in his methods (to put it mildly) still has the support of the majority of those who voted for him six months ago.
    I'm not sure the Democrats are going to want to get him replaced after the midterms either. Sure they may try but it will be halfhearted and for show. Once the midterms are out of the way Trump is likely to be the lamest of ducks and the Democrats will be concentrating on getting Trump replaced with one of their own at 2020 election, not getting Trump replaced by Pence in a 2019 impeachment.
    I'm not sure on this one. I think they'd rather face a conventional Republican such as Pence in 2020. Possibly they go hard to impeach Trump early in 2019, in an attempt to get him primaried.

    One idea I've suggested before (not that they're listening to some random guy in the Middle East posting on a British blog), is that the Democrats run their primaries a year early, in 2019, so giving their candidate a "Leader of the Opposition" role for 12 months, competing directly against the President every night on the news. They also need to think hard among themselves who should stand - they need another Obama, not another Hillary, someone young and fresh. Who's a 15 years younger Elizabeth Warren?
  • Options
    bobajobPBbobajobPB Posts: 1,042
    RobD said:

    bobajobPB said:

    Donald Trump.

    Only for the PB Trumptons.

    Only on PB.

    What have they said this time?
    They are just there. Looking on. At their man. The PB Trumptons. Proud as punch, no doubt.
  • Options
    GarethoftheVale2GarethoftheVale2 Posts: 2,000

    MikeL said:

    Is there final confirmation of who is on the ITV leaders debate tomorrow night?

    Programme is still 2 hours - if it's just LD, UKIP, Green, SNP and PC that is going to be a long 2 hours.

    Basically an immense borefest in which two leaders of regional parties that don't stand in over 90% of the country gang up with leaders of two more (weak and marginal) leftist parties, to lampoon the hapless leader of a dying right-wing party.

    Of interest to none but a handful of really serious political anoraks. Don't know why they're bothering TBH.
    I don't suspect the 5 debating will attack each other that much, particularly as SNP, Plaid and Greens are quite chummy. More likely they will all turn their fire on May and Corbyn who won't be able to answer back.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,899
    Scott_P said:
    If only it were so decisive. This tragedy is going to drag on for many more episodes.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,908

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    Spreadsheet fill was £20 Bn out earlier today.

    Why do PBers rate him?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    bobajobPB said:

    RobD said:

    bobajobPB said:

    Donald Trump.

    Only for the PB Trumptons.

    Only on PB.

    What have they said this time?
    They are just there. Looking on. At their man. The PB Trumptons. Proud as punch, no doubt.
    OK. What an odd thing to post if nothing has actually happened!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018

    twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    Spreadsheet fill was £20 Bn out earlier today.

    Why do PBers rate him?
    What was be £20bn out on?
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,908
    RobD said:

    twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    Spreadsheet fill was £20 Bn out earlier today.

    Why do PBers rate him?
    What was be £20bn out on?
    HS2
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079


    Audience member: "We're on 9 seats at the moment. The only way is up." I wouldn't be so sure.

    At the start of the campaign it was perhaps not an unreasonable thought. Now? They'd be lucky.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    Only if Pence suffers an incapacitating or fatal misfortune at roughly the same time.

    Remember - impeach Trump, get Pence.

    This is why Clinton despite being somewhat less corrupt and irresponsible would in practice have been in more danger than Trump of being removed. Tim Kaine may not be a great campaigner but he would make a half-decent president.
    Yes, and I think for that reason, Ydoe, the Dems won't want him to go too soon.
    For those in doubt - I know it does cause confusion - the correct spelling of my user name is 'Y Doethur' (pronounced, roughly, uh DOY theer).

    On your substantive point, I can't see what the Democrats gain from trying to force Trump out. They look like sore losers, they don't have the numbers to do it, and if by some miracle they did manage it, they'd get someone far worse.

    If there is a move against him it will surely be from the Republicans (who do not have quite the same reasons to hate Pence although by all accounts they don't love him) and it will require something fairly substantial and unambiguously criminal.
    What a sensible language, to distinguish doethurs from meddygs.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,636
    edited May 2017
    Much like Hannibal lulled Rome into a false sense of security at The Battle of Cannae.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/864935783228207104
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    Alice_AforethoughtAlice_Aforethought Posts: 772
    edited May 2017
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    It does not mean kowtowing to foreign leaders, whose fear you can smell that we have rejected their set up and will sit off their coast as a "Plan B" example to any others that do not wish to see their national democracies mashed into a 21st Century Austria Hungary.

    Those remaining EU member states must be looking on at our ideological battle between Ed Miliband's vision and Michael Foot's with envy...
    Cyclefree said:

    Such core principles that Germany limited immigration from Poland and other Eastern European states despite them participating in the same internal market.

    It's called a transition. We chose 'hard expansion' instead of an orderly adjustment.
    Re envy: yes they soon will be. We'll be having elections with the ability to fire those with power over us. Theirs will slip away into a Kafkaeseque morass of bureaucrat led decisions (how do I fire the Swedish Commissioner through the ballot box- oh I can't can I?), unable to be held properly to account, not least because you can't have a proper media and political discourse across about 20 languages.
    That was IIRC one of the Benn tests, was it not.

    What power have you?
    How did you get it?
    In whose interests do you exercise it?
    To whom are you accountable?
    How do we get rid of you?

    "Anyone who cannot answer the last of those questions does not live in a democratic system".

    Does the EU parliament have an Opposition?
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,368
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Nigelb said:

    Question: any chance at all of Trump being declared unfit under the 25th Amendment?

    QTWAIN. It would take the Vice President, the majority of Trump's own cabinet and if Trump objects, which he would, a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress.

    In contrast the impeachment route "only" takes a majority of Representatives and two-thirds of the Senate.
    Even then, it's extraordinarily unlikely unless Trump becomes more blatantly nuts than he was when elected. Impeachment on credible legal grounds would be far easier to sell to those who voted for him.

    This was discussed at some length on an earlier thread.

    Briefly, the legal side of it is almost an irrelevance. It's his popularity rating that matters. It's currently in the low fourties. That's bad but not critical. If it gets down to 35% or lower, he's in trouble. Or to put it another way, if he starts losing the Republican base, he's....well, toast!
    Interesting feature of Favourability ratings. As his general Favourability goes down it could well increase amongst Republicans as US Favourability polls use self identification rather than previous vote. So as Trump makes more and more Republicans identify as Independent instead his Favourability amongst Republicans will stay high and maybe gen increase.
    But the GOP will still have to make a call as to when he has simply become too toxic, no?
    Sure, Trump's popularity amongst the GOP is critical. But if he's actually eroding the base of then the headline Favourability figure is a false signal which is what we care about for betting purpoises. In a worst case situation Trump might have 100% Favourability amongst self identifying Republicans but there's only 4 of them left.
    I see what you mean, Alistair.

    Four? I suspect he personally would consider that a sufficient mandate, but not sure about the GOP.
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    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    In the 2015 election the, electoral commission, published weekly fundraising totals, but I don't see them on their website, does anybody know when will that start? or have the rules changed?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,079

    Much like Hannibal lulled Rome into a false sense of security at The Battle of Cannae.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/864935783228207104

    If that's true, what a masterful ruse they have managed.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,971
    welshowl said:

    kle4 said:

    And now, as no-one asked for, some long rambling thoughts on the LD manifesto, section by section.

    YOUR CHANCE TO CHANGE BRITAIN’S FUTURE BY CHANING THE OPPOSITION
    Simultaneously realistic and overly optimistic. Attacking May and Corbyn, recognising May is going to win, but also hoping the LDs are going to be able to make the LDs the official opposition. It’s not a bad opening, but seeing how things look to be going for them, its hopeful tone makes me sad for the party. Lots of manifesto does act like they will be in government though.

    PROTECT BRITAIN’S PLACE IN EUROPE
    Forward says that campaigning to be the opposition, but then says here they LDs will a Brexit to deal to a vote, presuming they will be in government, or powerful enough to force that option (with a rejoin choice)?

    Very clear on priorities, although obviously what they want is to stay.

    SAVE OUR NHS AND SOCIAL CARE SERVICES
    Yet Labour and Conservative politicians refuse to be honest with the public about the scale of the crisis or the tough decisions which are needed to protect these vital services - Maybe, but they never reward you, do they?

    Some funding stuff, which is better than none.

    End public sector pay freeze for NHS workers? I presume not the rest of us then, diff from Labour.

    Protect whistleblowers? Isn’t this already supposed to be the case?

    Lots of points on mental health

    Feels like a bigger emphasis on health than Labour’s even.

    PUT CHILDREN FIRST
    Some bits I’m clear on the cost, some not.

    Introduce a fairer national funding system with a protection for all schools, so that no school loses money – not a single one? Bold promise

    Going after free schools – feels like less of an issue than a few years ago, but presumably still has some appeal

    ‘Slimmed down core national curriculum’ which they state includes PSHE – we hated PSHE when I was at school, a lot of it was useless nonsense.

    Going heavy on LGBT + issues (incidentally, that’s a better acronym than LGBTIQA+, which I have seen)

    Aim to meet all basic skills needs including literacy, numeracy and digital skills by 2030 – from the school of ‘who would object to that?’ policies

    In fairness 1p on tax for the NHS is at least a step towards honesty with the electorate given an aging population.
    Yep. Funding specific extra spending by extra taxation is perfectly fine, politics should be about decisions like this. A bit of honesty from the LDs and it should be praised.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,636
    kle4 said:

    Much like Hannibal lulled Rome into a false sense of security at The Battle of Cannae.

    https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/864935783228207104

    If that's true, what a masterful ruse they have managed.
    Plus Mrs May and the Tories are believing the polls which we all know have been wrong before, and appointing that lose Crosby who lost the 2005 general election.

    Tories are going to be crying in the early hours of June 9th.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,971

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145
    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    Which polls is he looking at???
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited May 2017
    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/864900651163234304

    Brilliant, harsh, but fair – not even a thread today mentioning it.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,664
    Sandpit said:

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145
    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    Which polls is he looking at???
    Well, all the non-Tory Polls....

    All the polls with no Tories in them. If they had tories in them, they would be Tory Polls. Obvious really.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    BigRich said:

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    It must take some serially strong media training, to be able to say that with a strate face.
    Perfected through decades of telling journalists "I am not an apologist for the Provisional IRA," no doubt.
    Nigelb said:

    MikeL said:

    Is there final confirmation of who is on the ITV leaders debate tomorrow night?

    Programme is still 2 hours - if it's just LD, UKIP, Green, SNP and PC that is going to be a long 2 hours.

    Basically an immense borefest in which two leaders of regional parties that don't stand in over 90% of the country gang up with leaders of two more (weak and marginal) leftist parties, to lampoon the hapless leader of a dying right-wing party.

    Of interest to none but a handful of really serious political anoraks. Don't know why they're bothering TBH.
    Sounds like a potential contender for next year's Turner Prize.

    Chris Ofili's balls of elephant dung would probably provide more entertainment. Especially if everyone took turns to throw them at Nuttall.

    I don't suspect the 5 debating will attack each other that much, particularly as SNP, Plaid and Greens are quite chummy. More likely they will all turn their fire on May and Corbyn who won't be able to answer back.

    I'm sure that May and Corbyn will both be terrified.

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    Spreadsheet fill was £20 Bn out earlier today.

    Why do PBers rate him?
    I can't comment on what Hammond may or may not have said today because I haven't seen the reports, though FWIW - in the context of this election campaign - it scarcely matters.

    Firstly, the electorate have already made up their minds about May & Hammond vs Corbyn & McDonnell, and not to Labour's benefit. Secondly, the Labour manifesto basically promises a free herd of ponies for every reader except the rich, which is patently bollocks. And thirdly, McDonnell is a terrorist cheerleader who is unfit to sit on a parish council, let alone run the Treasury.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,636
    Sandpit said:

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145
    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    Which polls is he looking at???
    If he's like my Corbynite friends, they are working on this principle.

    A few weeks ago the Tories were 25% ahead, now they are around 16% ahead.

    By June 8th, Labour will be 10% ahead.

    Trend is your friend.

    Plus apart from me, everyone they know votes Labour or likes Corbyn.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Sandpit said:

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145
    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    Which polls is he looking at???
    If he's like my Corbynite friends, they are working on this principle.

    A few weeks ago the Tories were 25% ahead, now they are around 16% ahead.

    By June 8th, Labour will be 10% ahead.

    Trend is your friend.

    Plus apart from me, everyone they know votes Labour or likes Corbyn.
    That's not a million miles from how it went in 2010. As Harvey says to Quentin in Pulp Fiction, let's not start ____ing one another's ____s just yet.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154

    https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/864929770693382145

    It's not just Diane who struggles with maths.

    I was struck tonight by just how much that Diane debacle had cut through on the doorstep.
This discussion has been closed.