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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Backing Labour to win the popular vote on June 8th

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,359
    DavidL said:



    They hardly did anything in the first 3 weeks. At some point they will inevitably join in this election campaign thing. What will happen then I wonder?

    Their theory was (I think) that by letting Labour make the initial running, Corbyn would implode and they could then step in and pick up the pieces. That hasn't happened. They will obviously try the IRA/Hamas stuff big time, but I think that's factored in already - sure, people don't necessarily know exactly who said what in 1974 or whatever, but they've got the general idea. Corbyn was as a backbencher willing to meet people on the margins and make friendly comments - that bothers voters or it doesn't, but it's not news.

    Personally, I found as an MP that one ends up being photographed with all kinds of people unless one's incredibly careful (which backbenchers usually aren't) - people come to see you on a delegation, or meet you at a reception where photographers are all over the place, and yesterday's friends or at least polite partners in joint efforts turn out to be today's enemies and vice versa. Assad is a very good example, and Sinn Fein is too. I met someone from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation two weeks ago and said polite things about him - that doesn't make me a country sports fan.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    Ishmael_Z said:

    FF43 said:

    On the question of Brexit, the electorate can be broken down into three core groups instead of two: the Hard Leavers who want out of the EU (45 per cent); the Hard Remainers who still want to try to stop Brexit (22 per cent); and the Re-Leavers (23 per cent) — those who voted to Remain last summer but think that the government now has a duty to leave.

    The emergence of this latter group means that when the parties are discussing Brexit, they should not think in terms of two pools of voters split almost down the middle. Instead, there is a big lake made up of Leave and Re-Leave voters and a much smaller Remain pond. This means that the Conservatives and UK Independence party are fishing among 68 per cent of voters, while Labour, the Liberal Democrats, Greens and nationalists are battling for just 22 per cent of the electorate.

    https://amp.ft.com/content/76037a34-36ef-11e7-99bd-13beb0903fa3

    On that definition I'm a Re-Leaver. A democratic, if poorly informed, decision was taken. Now it's questions of how that decision is implemented with the least damage possible and where we go from here in building new relationships with the EU and the rest of the world. Questions that few people are giving much thought to, including most worryingly, Theresa May.

    I'm a Re-Leaver (what a silly, contrived and misleading name btw). I am amazed that otherwise lucid Remain voters can take any other view, and yet call themselves believers in democracy. I think they think: let's retrospectively disenfranchise all Leave voters for being thick proles, and once you've done that there's a clear democratic mandate for Remain. Yet they think the Leavers are the fascists.
    If you don't like releaver Ashcroft calls the group accepters.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    calum said:

    SCON's first policy - free prescriptions !

    https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/863682837232459777

    LOL, what about all those patients being killed the policy she was moaning about a few weeks ago. Has she abandoned them.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    That precipitous state visit invitation is looking more ill-considered by the day. Hopefully, it can be put off until well into next year, when maybe Trump will no longer be around. We will gain absolutely nothing from him coming.

    It was offered way too soon.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    MaxPB said:

    Martin Boon of ICM was on Twitter last night, as TSE noted, and if ICM have a poll imminent it certainly isn't showing Labour at 30%. It's rare to see a pollster so openly sceptical about rivals' findings.

    I honestly believe that polls are going to to struggle to find Lab -> Con switchers this time, normally they are easy to identify in the centre ground, this time because of the PM's pitch they are coming from the working classes, a group which is notoriously difficult to poll accurately.
    Labour supporters need to accept the possibility of and then work through the implications of the pollsters having the Conservative figure about right. And Conservative supporters need to accept the possibility of and then work through the implications of the pollsters having the Labour figure about right. Neither seems to have done this yet.
    Accepting the possibility the polls might be right? This is 2017, sir.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    surbiton said:

    I take it you are leaving the ARSE until the final stretch.

    There'll be no buggering about with my ARSE this election ....
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,359
    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,412

    The outbreak of Tory councillors deleting their twitter & FB accounts seems to have spread from Scotland to England.

    https://twitter.com/IsolatedBrit/status/863649855331282944

    It seems that all across the nation(s) Tories have taken Tessy's Nasty party speech as an aspiration rather than a reproach.

    3.16pm on Saturday??
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    isam said:

    Twitter is saying Thornberry has bested Fallon on Marr

    She highlighted the fact that Fallon had attended President Assad's victory party a few years ago.

    Quite amusing to watch.
    In 2007.

    It should have been an easy reply though: attending a reception in Syria in 2007 is rather different to wanting the IRA to win when they were bombing Britain.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    In genealogy a short generation is reckoned at 25 and a long generation at 33 i.e. depending upon the society there are either three or four generations per century. If that doesn't make immediate sense in a time when most married couples had say five or six children the eldest / eldest / eldest / eldest led to four generations per century the youngest youngest youngest youngest led to three.

    And that is what so infuriated me with Neil Kinnock asking why he was the first Kinnock in a thousand generations to go to university. Leaving aside intrinsic thickness in his family there have only been universities for about 30 generations. For the previous 970 generations they did not exist.

    If only cavemen had voted labour there would have been.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    Alistair said:

    calum said:

    SCON's first policy - free prescriptions !

    https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/863682837232459777

    The screeching about turn from those who previously constructed endless arguments against free prescriptions will be a joy to behold.
    Given this isn't the Holyrood election what's she on about. Unless it's national Tory policy it irrelevant.

    This is like the Slab Holyrood campaign in inverse. It is either a very clever or very stupid strategy.
    It is a stupid strategy to catch the stupid. Unfortunately we seem to have many of them.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!

    Thank you for your service.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,412
    edited May 2017
    surbiton said:

    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    For me these pictures of the younger Corbyn sucking up to those IRA murderers at a time when they were still murdering, Hamas and now Assad are yet more evidence that this person is completely unfit to be a member of Parliament, let alone PM. But I have yet to see much evidence that it has any traction with a significant number of people less interested in politics.
    Tories are panicking. They did not resort to this in the first three weeks.
    Chortle ....

    You can certainly smell the Tory fear in the air as they peruse substantial double digit poll leads.
    I take it you are leaving the ARSE until the final stretch.
    ELBOW - technically incomplete without ICM (and Survation, if they're doing one this weekend).

    So far seven polls with fieldwork end-dates during week ending 14th.
    But the Tory lead is in freefall!

    Con Lab LD UKIP Tory Lead
    23-Apr-17 45.50 26.10 10.40 8.60 19.40
    30-Apr-17 46.33 28.11 10.22 6.67 18.22
    07-May-17 47.10 28.50 9.40 6.40 18.60
    14-May-17 46.86 30.57 9.29 5.43 16.29
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,554
    surbiton said:

    NHS Wales, under Labour, paid for XP support. NHS England , under the Tories didn't. I suppose , NHS Scotland, under the SNP, did not [ I have no evidence on the last one ]

    In this particular case whether or not an organisation paid for XP support is irrelevant, there was no XP patch for the particular vulnerability until yesterday, and it is now freely available.

    So if NHS Wales avoided the problem is was due to something else, maybe just simple good luck that their computers weren't targeted.

    That said no organisations should be paying for continuing XP support, they should be upgrading to more secure newer versions of Windows, not keep creaky old XP going.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    For me these pictures of the younger Corbyn sucking up to those IRA murderers at a time when they were still murdering, Hamas and now Assad are yet more evidence that this person is completely unfit to be a member of Parliament, let alone PM. But I have yet to see much evidence that it has any traction with a significant number of people less interested in politics.
    Tories are panicking. They did not resort to this in the first three weeks.
    Saving the best until last.....
    Morning, Carlotta. Bit feisty today ?
    LOL, a few letters out of place there Surbiton, more "fousty" than "feisty"
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    The outbreak of Tory councillors deleting their twitter & FB accounts seems to have spread from Scotland to England.

    https://twitter.com/IsolatedBrit/status/863649855331282944

    It seems that all across the nation(s) Tories have taken Tessy's Nasty party speech as an aspiration rather than a reproach.

    Well the gypsy remark is out of line, but without delving into it the rest might just be a, you know, joke.

  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    Floater said:
    She's fantastic.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    That facial expression is like something off the Wikipedia page of a serial killer.
    Labour is going to win?

    Not this time chaps, probably not even next time.
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Ruth spending today on Twitter focusing on Corbyn's IRA past - will certainly help shore up the Orange vote which SCON seem to value so highly. As with the CCHQ attack on C's Syria links, I think these attacks won't resonate that much with the border electorate !!

    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/863663807859757056
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    Pulpstar said:

    Applied a transition for Scotland, ends up with the SNP doing surprisingly well !

    Still on 54 seats.

    WAK
    BRS
    DCT
    D&G
    Edi South (To the Tories !)

    One for @MalcolmG here though:

    SNP Gain! Orkney & Shetland. Please note I have backed Carmichael with cold cash before anyone screams about how I'm being bias to the SNP.

    Hopefully your money is down the drain Pulpstar
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,252
    kle4 said:

    The outbreak of Tory councillors deleting their twitter & FB accounts seems to have spread from Scotland to England.

    https://twitter.com/IsolatedBrit/status/863649855331282944

    It seems that all across the nation(s) Tories have taken Tessy's Nasty party speech as an aspiration rather than a reproach.

    Well the gypsy remark is out of line, but without delving into it the rest might just be a, you know, joke.

    Poor old Nick, such a delicate flower that he deleted his twitter account because of a crap joke.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    DavidL said:



    They hardly did anything in the first 3 weeks. At some point they will inevitably join in this election campaign thing. What will happen then I wonder?

    Their theory was (I think) that by letting Labour make the initial running, Corbyn would implode and they could then step in and pick up the pieces. That hasn't happened. They will obviously try the IRA/Hamas stuff big time, but I think that's factored in already - sure, people don't necessarily know exactly who said what in 1974 or whatever, but they've got the general idea. Corbyn was as a backbencher willing to meet people on the margins and make friendly comments - that bothers voters or it doesn't, but it's not news.

    Personally, I found as an MP that one ends up being photographed with all kinds of people unless one's incredibly careful (which backbenchers usually aren't) - people come to see you on a delegation, or meet you at a reception where photographers are all over the place, and yesterday's friends or at least polite partners in joint efforts turn out to be today's enemies and vice versa. Assad is a very good example, and Sinn Fein is too. I met someone from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation two weeks ago and said polite things about him - that doesn't make me a country sports fan.
    While I agree the plan to have Corbyn implode hasnt worked, and people are photographed next to others without supporting them, that doesn't mean you cannot find such a photo and the person did support the one they are photoed. With.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!

    But what happens if you win; will the poor animals have to wait?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Applied a transition for Scotland, ends up with the SNP doing surprisingly well !

    Still on 54 seats.

    WAK
    BRS
    DCT
    D&G
    Edi South (To the Tories !)

    One for @MalcolmG here though:

    SNP Gain! Orkney & Shetland. Please note I have backed Carmichael with cold cash before anyone screams about how I'm being bias to the SNP.

    Hopefully your money is down the drain Pulpstar
    It'd be an amazing, if slightly expensive vindication of this particular model.
    But I think he's an exception that proves the rule in all honesty.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    For me these pictures of the younger Corbyn sucking up to those IRA murderers at a time when they were still murdering, Hamas and now Assad are yet more evidence that this person is completely unfit to be a member of Parliament, let alone PM. But I have yet to see much evidence that it has any traction with a significant number of people less interested in politics.
    Tories are panicking. They did not resort to this in the first three weeks.
    They hardly did anything in the first 3 weeks. At some point they will inevitably join in this election campaign thing. What will happen then I wonder?
    I wonder if the Conservatives were worried that Labour would collapse and that the LibDems would be the beneficiaries.

    Labour at 30% in the polls gives a greater threat for Conservatives to vote against than the 'nice' LibDems at 30% would.
    Oh, I see. The Tories were concerned about the well-being of the Labour Party !
    They wanted their ideal opponent.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    For me these pictures of the younger Corbyn sucking up to those IRA murderers at a time when they were still murdering, Hamas and now Assad are yet more evidence that this person is completely unfit to be a member of Parliament, let alone PM. But I have yet to see much evidence that it has any traction with a significant number of people less interested in politics.
    How many Tories have butt sucked Assad over the years David. Pretty sure you could fill albums with them , tongues hanging out. You also seem to forget that the sainted Margaret and many other Tories sucked up to IRA but did it in the shadows as they did not hav ethe bollox to let the public know they were doing it. Stones and glasshouses come to mind.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!

    Palmer4EthicalCowPats.com ??

    Good luck Nick.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    I cannot get over that Trudeau is 45. Handsome bastard.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,060
    OK pb'ers. I'm asking you to donate three minutes of your time in training my CrowdScores comments AI. As many of you are CrowdScores users, you will know that a lot of people write "amusing" comments like "Chelsea fans are all coksackers". Occasionally though, people write genuinely informative commentary about the game such as "Great pass from Mertasacker, Man Utd were very lucky the ball ricocheted into touch" or somesuch.

    So, I thought I'd play with Google's TensorFlow deep learning system. I have got the 70,000 most interesting English language comments pulled out via a bit of Bayesian filtering. Now I'd like to separate them again into the "interesting" and the "boring".

    So, please could you go to: http://survey.amoral.org and click on "good" or "bad" for each comment until you've done about 50. (It'll take you three minutes.)

    (I shall probably outsource this to Mechanical Turk longer term, but I thought you guys could do a good first pass.)

    THANK YOU!
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,412
    kle4 said:

    The outbreak of Tory councillors deleting their twitter & FB accounts seems to have spread from Scotland to England.

    https://twitter.com/IsolatedBrit/status/863649855331282944

    It seems that all across the nation(s) Tories have taken Tessy's Nasty party speech as an aspiration rather than a reproach.

    Well the gypsy remark is out of line, but without delving into it the rest might just be a, you know, joke.

    3.16 pm on Saturday? Eurovision started at 8
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:

    Thornberry coming across as a normal human being on Marr.

    She is actually very good. She is lambasted only because of her perceived association with Corbyn.
    She was being lambasted long before Corbyn was even a thing:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/21/emily-thornberry-resignation-explain-outside-britain
    Thornberry I would class as inconsistent. I've seen her be awful, but also seen her be pretty good.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Thanks - worth detailed study. Some notes that may not be entirely intuitive (you can read them for yourself, of course, but maybe these nuggets are worth highlighting):

    1. The real gap in Britain is no longer class (Tories ahead by 12 in the upper-income group and 11 in the rest, meh). It's age. Labour is well ahead among the 18-24 group but also among the 35-49 group. Tories are well ahead in the 59-64 group and massively among the elderly (57-14)
    2. There is a bit of Con-Lab/Lab-Con interplay (4 and 8 points) but nothing significant.
    3. The decline in the LD vote is helping the Tories, not Labour (20-10)
    4. The decline in UKIP even more so (52-6!), and it's huge. Only 1 in 6 UKIP voters in 2015 plan to vote UKIP this time. UKIP is attracting 0 votes from anyone else.
    5. Stated certainty to vote is almost identical for everyone.
    6. There has been a leaning among don't knows (who are 18% of the total) to Labour during the campaign. A week earlier the DKs were leaning 15-10 to Con. Now they're 17-15 to Lab. This doesn't show up in polls since they're still don't knows. This no doubt reflects Labour's higher profile campaign, but probably most of these won't vote.
    7. Of those who've decided, few think they might change their minds (Con 5, Lab 11, LD 22).

    What does this mean for betting? Well, a constitituency where you'd expect the Tories to do above average would have a big retired proportion and a big UKIP proportion (though this may have some double counting). Some of the coastal seats, maybe? Labour should do above average in the opposite case (Brighton Kemptown springs to mind, maybe Cambridge?). I wouldn't bet against Caroline Lucas either.

    On your #1. If I take the weighted numbers, then for 18 - 64 [ almost the entire working age groups ] Tories = 527 , Labour = 470. Obviously, until age 49 Labour leads easily.

    The female voters gap now is far less pronounced. Female 13, Male 23.

    Labour vote is firming up. Now 80% of 2015 Lab supporting Labour.

    Labour @31% , virtually identical to GE2015. Of the weighted Referendum Labour voters, the ratio for Remain:Leave is 262:125.

    What was Corbyn thinking ? We shouldn't have lost the ref in the first place.
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    edited May 2017
    kle4 said:

    That precipitous state visit invitation is looking more ill-considered by the day. Hopefully, it can be put off until well into next year, when maybe Trump will no longer be around. We will gain absolutely nothing from him coming.
    It was offered way too soon.
    They were desperate times, and Mrs May was a desperate woman. Still is, of course.

    And weak.
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    walterwwalterw Posts: 71
    isam

    'Twitter is saying Thornberry has bested Fallon on Marr'


    So in the real world we know the reverse is true

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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    kle4 said:

    The outbreak of Tory councillors deleting their twitter & FB accounts seems to have spread from Scotland to England.

    https://twitter.com/IsolatedBrit/status/863649855331282944

    It seems that all across the nation(s) Tories have taken Tessy's Nasty party speech as an aspiration rather than a reproach.

    Well the gypsy remark is out of line, but without delving into it the rest might just be a, you know, joke.

    Exactly the same one that at least two PBers made...
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    Scott_P said:

    I am surprised the Zoomers have not been bigging up the Sainted Nicola's appearance on Marr this morning

    @PolhomeEditor: Nicola Sturgeon says that if you ignore literacy and numeracy, Scottish education is doing well. Righto. #marr

    Oh...

    Scott only peasants and cretins watch Marr, so we will leave it to you to enlighten us.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,252
    calum said:

    Ruth spending today on Twitter focusing on Corbyn's IRA past - will certainly help shore up the Orange vote which SCON seem to value so highly. As with the CCHQ attack on C's Syria links, I think these attacks won't resonate that much with the border electorate !!

    https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/863663807859757056

    Well, they might work on the border between North & South Lanarkshire.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Floater said:
    Rebecca Long-Bailey, as with Emily Thornberry obviously not been briefed by LHQ before heading off to the TV studios. Not exactly 'end of the world' stuff, but also no a good look.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    kle4 said:

    I cannot get over that Trudeau is 45. Handsome bastard.
    The Moldovan President is 42.

    image
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    isamisam Posts: 40,988

    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!

    More worthwhile than campaigning for Socialism! Good luck, I have a lot of time for that issue. Factory farming should not be normalised, killing any animal except in self defence should be done with a heavy heart
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:



    They hardly did anything in the first 3 weeks. At some point they will inevitably join in this election campaign thing. What will happen then I wonder?

    Their theory was (I think) that by letting Labour make the initial running, Corbyn would implode and they could then step in and pick up the pieces. That hasn't happened. They will obviously try the IRA/Hamas stuff big time, but I think that's factored in already - sure, people don't necessarily know exactly who said what in 1974 or whatever, but they've got the general idea. Corbyn was as a backbencher willing to meet people on the margins and make friendly comments - that bothers voters or it doesn't, but it's not news.

    Personally, I found as an MP that one ends up being photographed with all kinds of people unless one's incredibly careful (which backbenchers usually aren't) - people come to see you on a delegation, or meet you at a reception where photographers are all over the place, and yesterday's friends or at least polite partners in joint efforts turn out to be today's enemies and vice versa. Assad is a very good example, and Sinn Fein is too. I met someone from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation two weeks ago and said polite things about him - that doesn't make me a country sports fan.
    While I agree the plan to have Corbyn implode hasnt worked, and people are photographed next to others without supporting them, that doesn't mean you cannot find such a photo and the person did support the one they are photoed with.
    I am sure there are pictures of Martin McGuinness shaking hands with the Queen.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    murali_s said:

    Good morning all.

    Great Labour manifesto - shame about the messenger! Oh well, maybe next time...

    Don't worry, Tories love stealing labour policies.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    glw said:

    surbiton said:

    NHS Wales, under Labour, paid for XP support. NHS England , under the Tories didn't. I suppose , NHS Scotland, under the SNP, did not [ I have no evidence on the last one ]

    In this particular case whether or not an organisation paid for XP support is irrelevant, there was no XP patch for the particular vulnerability until yesterday, and it is now freely available.

    So if NHS Wales avoided the problem is was due to something else, maybe just simple good luck that their computers weren't targeted.

    That said no organisations should be paying for continuing XP support, they should be upgrading to more secure newer versions of Windows, not keep creaky old XP going.
    There was under the extended support.
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    Ishmael_Z said:

    FF43 said:

    On the question of Brexit, the electorate can be broken down into three core groups instead of two: the Hard Leavers who want out of the EU (45 per cent); the Hard Remainers who still want to try to stop Brexit (22 per cent); and the Re-Leavers (23 per cent) — those who voted to Remain last summer but think that the government now has a duty to leave.

    The emergence of this latter group means that when the parties are discussing Brexit, they should not think in terms of two pools of voters split almost down the middle. Instead, there is a big lake made up of Leave and Re-Leave voters and a much smaller Remain pond. This means that the Conservatives and UK Independence party are fishing among 68 per cent of voters, while Labour, the Liberal Democrats, Greens and nationalists are battling for just 22 per cent of the electorate.

    https://amp.ft.com/content/76037a34-36ef-11e7-99bd-13beb0903fa3

    On that definition I'm a Re-Leaver. A democratic, if poorly informed, decision was taken. Now it's questions of how that decision is implemented with the least damage possible and where we go from here in building new relationships with the EU and the rest of the world. Questions that few people are giving much thought to, including most worryingly, Theresa May.

    I'm a Re-Leaver (what a silly, contrived and misleading name btw). I am amazed that otherwise lucid Remain voters can take any other view, and yet call themselves believers in democracy. I think they think: let's retrospectively disenfranchise all Leave voters for being thick proles, and once you've done that there's a clear democratic mandate for Remain. Yet they think the Leavers are the fascists.
    And yet someone downthread said the voters don't know what Lib Dem policy is !
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    Scott_P said:
    He said what? I'm more stunned by that than him lying, outright, no excuse lying, for not seeing or expecting communist flags at a May Day trade union rally.
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    JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    I really fear for Corbyn when Andrew Neil finally gets to sink his teeth into him. After watching the hapless RLB this morning, dear oh dear, if she is this bad, imagine how Corbyn will suffer - a man with precisely zero intellectual capacity.

    Not a car crash, a multi vehicle pile up in a pea souper on the M1.
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    BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!

    We live in a would were some people still go hungry, the population is rising and the amount of land fixed. and you are happy to tell the would, even boast that you are going to work for an organisation that will oppose efficiently producing food on a small area or land.

    I am not saying you do not have a moral compass, you clearly do, I just don't understand it.

    I understand why people oppose fox hunting, or support the state redistributing wealth, I will not always agree, but I understand. I can even understand wishing to have some regulation around factory farming, to stop or limit, adverse side affects, even when I think those regulations are ineffective.

    but to simply oppose, as you put it, and even if the pressure group, word things differently, you in your own words simply describe it as 'opposing' That's a mystery to me.

    Pleasing your own perseverance for food to be produced in one way or another, about somebody else's preference for enough food to keep themselves and there kids alive, is beyond me.

    I enjoy reading your posts on hear, and am shore you would be a better MP than some in parliament. But I can not wish you well in your new job.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    For me these pictures of the younger Corbyn sucking up to those IRA murderers at a time when they were still murdering, Hamas and now Assad are yet more evidence that this person is completely unfit to be a member of Parliament, let alone PM. But I have yet to see much evidence that it has any traction with a significant number of people less interested in politics.
    Tories are panicking. They did not resort to this in the first three weeks.
    Chortle ....

    You can certainly smell the Tory fear in the air as they peruse substantial double digit poll leads.
    I take it you are leaving the ARSE until the final stretch.
    ELBOW - technically incomplete without ICM (and Survation, if they're doing one this weekend).

    So far seven polls with fieldwork end-dates during week ending 14th.
    But the Tory lead is in freefall!

    Con Lab LD UKIP Tory Lead
    23-Apr-17 45.50 26.10 10.40 8.60 19.40
    30-Apr-17 46.33 28.11 10.22 6.67 18.22
    07-May-17 47.10 28.50 9.40 6.40 18.60
    14-May-17 46.86 30.57 9.29 5.43 16.29
    You are right. A fall of 2.3 points in a week. Multiplied by 3.5 weeks gives us a Tory lead of 8 points.

    What was the starting point ?

    TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK !
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    OK pb'ers. I'm asking you to donate three minutes of your time in training my CrowdScores comments AI. As many of you are CrowdScores users, you will know that a lot of people write "amusing" comments like "Chelsea fans are all coksackers". Occasionally though, people write genuinely informative commentary about the game such as "Great pass from Mertasacker, Man Utd were very lucky the ball ricocheted into touch" or somesuch.

    So, I thought I'd play with Google's TensorFlow deep learning system. I have got the 70,000 most interesting English language comments pulled out via a bit of Bayesian filtering. Now I'd like to separate them again into the "interesting" and the "boring".

    So, please could you go to: http://survey.amoral.org and click on "good" or "bad" for each comment until you've done about 50. (It'll take you three minutes.)

    (I shall probably outsource this to Mechanical Turk longer term, but I thought you guys could do a good first pass.)

    THANK YOU!

    If the "LIKE" button had been retained you might simply have reviewed you or your fathers posts ....

    (Gratuitous arse licking comment)

    or all my posts (North Korean commentary)
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    I have spent a little time this morning looking at the current state of the parties in the opinion polls.

    The current position, as indicated by an average of the last ten published GB-wide opinion polls, is as follows:

    Con 47.0% (+9.2)
    Lab 29.9% (-1.3)
    Lib Dem 9.1% (+1.0)
    Ukip 5.6% (-7.3)
    Green 2.9% (-0.9)
    Other (incl SNP & PC) 5.5% (-0.7)

    Changes versus GE2015

    Next I attempted to make a reasonable guesstimate of the net flows of voters behind those headline figures, relative to the position in 2015:

    Let Ukip defectors break 5:1 in favour of Con over Lab
    Con = 37.8 + 6.1 = 43.9
    Lab = 31.2 + 1.2 - 32.4

    Grant the Tories 1 in 7 SNP voters, plus 1 in 4 SLAB voters
    Con = 43.9 + 0.7 + 0.6 = 45.2
    Lab = 32.4 - 0.6 = 31.8
    Other = 6.2 - 0.7 = 5.5

    Assign all of the Green defectors to Labour:
    Lab = 31.8 + 0.9 = 32.7
    Green = 3.8 - 0.9 = 2.9

    Attribute all of the Lib Dem increase to net gains from Labour:
    Lib Dem = 8.1 + 1.0 = 9.1
    Lab = 32.7 - 1.0 = 31.7

    Therefore, the direct transfer of voters from Lab to Con is as follows:
    Con = 45.2 + 1.8 = 47.0
    Lab = 31.7 - 1.8 = 29.9
    i.e. a swing of 1.8%

    These assumptions imply a net benefit to the Tories equivalent to a transfer of about 38% of the 2015 Ukip vote in the bulk of seats, allowing for a modest flow of Ukip voters back to Labour, plus an additional net movement of about 1.8% of the electorate directly from Lab to Con. Labour's losses to the Lib Dems and gains from the Greens basically cancel each other out.

    (TBC)
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    (continued)

    Based on uniform national swing, I estimate that this outcome would cause the movement of the following Labour seats into the Tory column:

    City of Chester
    Ealing Central & Acton
    Brentford & Isleworth
    Halifax
    Wirral West
    Ilford North
    Newcastle-under-Lyme
    Barrow & Furness
    Wolverhampton South West
    Hampstead & Kilburn
    Enfield North
    Hove
    Dewsbury
    Lancaster & Fleetwood
    Derbyshire North East
    Harrow West
    Bridgend
    Middlesbrough South & Cleveland East
    Westminster North
    Walsall North
    Wrexham
    Birmingham Northfield
    Wakefield
    Gedling
    Eltham
    Stoke-on-Trent South
    Birmingham Edgbaston
    Clwyd South
    Coventry South
    Darlington
    Delyn
    Blackpool South
    Alyn & Deeside
    Scunthorpe
    Bristol East
    Newport West
    Bishop Auckland
    Bolton North East
    Hyndburn
    Dudley North
    Mansfield
    Stoke-on-Trent North
    Stoke-on-Trent Central

    To that list may also be added Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk (SNP,) Carshalton & Wallington (LD,) Southport (LD,) Clacton (Ukip) and North Norfolk (LD.) That would give the Conservatives 48 gains and no losses under a UNS scenario relative to the status quo at dissolution, which would imply a Government majority of 106.

    Of course, this is a crude calculation that takes no account of differential swing between geographical regions, and from constituency to constituency. Labour is likely to hold a few of these theoretical losses, especially in London, but these are also likely to be outnumbered by other losses to the Conservatives in provincial England, and a small handful of additional Tory gains from the SNP (bringing the Conservatives, rather conveniently, close to the majority of 124 that I have previously projected.) Unless there is further significant improvement in the Labour position and/or deterioration in that of the Conservatives, then the polls still point to a likely landslide - and that's without even accounting for the possibility that they may be incorrectly over-estimating Labour and under-estimating the Liberal Democrats, which is what I continue to suspect.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
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    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Slightly off topic, can anyone suggest a better alternative to Oddschecker? One would think that it would reliably list all the up to date odds from the bookmakers who take part. But it doesn't.

    Examples: not all odds are listed for L.Dems <10 seats or 10-15. No odds are listed for L.Dems <10% or 10-15% of the vote.

    Also it was out of date on the Lib.Dems over/under bet. It listed the mid point as 26.5 seats days after this had dropped to about 15.5.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    What is wrong with the Twitter ''Left'':

    https://twitter.com/Joannechocolat/status/863689175563988992

    Anybody who is not Corbynite or sympathetic towards McDonnell is some kind of Tory to them.

    Purity is better than reality.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Jason said:

    I really fear for Corbyn when Andrew Neil finally gets to sink his teeth into him. After watching the hapless RLB this morning, dear oh dear, if she is this bad, imagine how Corbyn will suffer - a man with precisely zero intellectual capacity.

    Not a car crash, a multi vehicle pile up in a pea souper on the M1.

    Who is RLB ?
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    RestharrowRestharrow Posts: 233
    surbiton said:

    Jason said:

    I really fear for Corbyn when Andrew Neil finally gets to sink his teeth into him. After watching the hapless RLB this morning, dear oh dear, if she is this bad, imagine how Corbyn will suffer - a man with precisely zero intellectual capacity.

    Not a car crash, a multi vehicle pile up in a pea souper on the M1.

    Who is RLB ?
    Do keep up. She's the next prime minster but three.
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    DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    Was there a poll done recently asking how many people were aware of Corbyn's IRA links? Does anyone have a link if there was?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    malcolmg said:

    we will leave it to you to enlighten us.

    Here you go...

    https://twitter.com/drscottthinks/status/863709293459255296
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    walterw said:

    isam

    'Twitter is saying Thornberry has bested Fallon on Marr'


    So in the real world we know the reverse is true

    Cheering Assad was a great achievement in his career. He had to sell arms, I suppose.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    kle4 said:

    The outbreak of Tory councillors deleting their twitter & FB accounts seems to have spread from Scotland to England.

    https://twitter.com/IsolatedBrit/status/863649855331282944

    It seems that all across the nation(s) Tories have taken Tessy's Nasty party speech as an aspiration rather than a reproach.

    Well the gypsy remark is out of line, but without delving into it the rest might just be a, you know, joke.

    Poor old Nick, such a delicate flower that he deleted his twitter account because of a crap joke.
    Well that's politics and he might have much worse ones, much more racist ones. I was merely making the point that I cannot tell the seriousness of the hard border retaliation stuff, since plenty made that joke. And I did say the gypsy remark was out of line, I wasn't acting like it was ok.

    Maybe dial back the sarcasm for five seconds?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,691
    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:



    They hardly did anything in the first 3 weeks. At some point they will inevitably join in this election campaign thing. What will happen then I wonder?

    Their theory was (I think) that by letting Labour make the initial running, Corbyn would implode and they could then step in and pick up the pieces. That hasn't happened. They will obviously try the IRA/Hamas stuff big time, but I think that's factored in already - sure, people don't necessarily know exactly who said what in 1974 or whatever, but they've got the general idea. Corbyn was as a backbencher willing to meet people on the margins and make friendly comments - that bothers voters or it doesn't, but it's not news.

    Personally, I found as an MP that one ends up being photographed with all kinds of people unless one's incredibly careful (which backbenchers usually aren't) - people come to see you on a delegation, or meet you at a reception where photographers are all over the place, and yesterday's friends or at least polite partners in joint efforts turn out to be today's enemies and vice versa. Assad is a very good example, and Sinn Fein is too. I met someone from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation two weeks ago and said polite things about him - that doesn't make me a country sports fan.
    While I agree the plan to have Corbyn implode hasnt worked, and people are photographed next to others without supporting them, that doesn't mean you cannot find such a photo and the person did support the one they are photoed with.
    I am sure there are pictures of Martin McGuinness shaking hands with the Queen.
    And that didn't prove to be damaging to McGuiness.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    Jason said:

    I really fear for Corbyn when Andrew Neil finally gets to sink his teeth into him. After watching the hapless RLB this morning, dear oh dear, if she is this bad, imagine how Corbyn will suffer - a man with precisely zero intellectual capacity.

    Not a car crash, a multi vehicle pile up in a pea souper on the M1.

    Who is RLB ?
    Do keep up. She's the next prime minster but three.
    Who is RLB ?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:



    They hardly did anything in the first 3 weeks. At some point they will inevitably join in this election campaign thing. What will happen then I wonder?

    Their theory was (I think) that by letting Labour make the initial running, Corbyn would implode and they could then step in and pick up the pieces. That hasn't happened. They will obviously try the IRA/Hamas stuff big time, but I think that's factored in already - sure, people don't necessarily know exactly who said what in 1974 or whatever, but they've got the general idea. Corbyn was as a backbencher willing to meet people on the margins and make friendly comments - that bothers voters or it doesn't, but it's not news.

    Personally, I found as an MP that one ends up being photographed with all kinds of people unless one's incredibly careful (which backbenchers usually aren't) - people come to see you on a delegation, or meet you at a reception where photographers are all over the place, and yesterday's friends or at least polite partners in joint efforts turn out to be today's enemies and vice versa. Assad is a very good example, and Sinn Fein is too. I met someone from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation two weeks ago and said polite things about him - that doesn't make me a country sports fan.
    While I agree the plan to have Corbyn implode hasnt worked, and people are photographed next to others without supporting them, that doesn't mean you cannot find such a photo and the person did support the one they are photoed with.
    I am sure there are pictures of Martin McGuinness shaking hands with the Queen.
    There certainly are. What about my point disputed that?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314
    MikeK said:

    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!

    But what happens if you win; will the poor animals have to wait?
    Nick's not standing in Broxtowe this time.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,359
    MikeK said:

    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!

    But what happens if you win; will the poor animals have to wait?
    I'm not standing!

    By the way, welcome back - I recall you took time out for health reasons. I hope you're feeling better.
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    edited May 2017
    Emily Thornberry shortened in next Lab leader betting but still available at 28-1 BET365 could be long-term value.There is also value to be had outside the favourite in the next Lib Dem leader market too.Tories backed into 11-10 in North Norfolk.Lamb could be in the Tory/ukip kleftiko.Take out Tom Brake 4-1-13-2,who could well be decapitated as well,and you are left with Gregg Who and a number of other who?s.2 names who could easily make it into the frame are Simon Hughes at 40-1 and Vince Cable at 50-1.They are both odds-on to re-take their seats and could also represent short and long-term value.Fallon may not survive this election.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-39911530

    Can this be correct ?

    Japanese officials say the missile, which launched from north-western Kusong, reached an altitude of 2,000km

    That is 5 times as far up as the International Space Station !!
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    MaxPB said:

    Martin Boon of ICM was on Twitter last night, as TSE noted, and if ICM have a poll imminent it certainly isn't showing Labour at 30%. It's rare to see a pollster so openly sceptical about rivals' findings.

    I honestly believe that polls are going to to struggle to find Lab -> Con switchers this time, normally they are easy to identify in the centre ground, this time because of the PM's pitch they are coming from the working classes, a group which is notoriously difficult to poll accurately.
    Labour supporters need to accept the possibility of and then work through the implications of the pollsters having the Conservative figure about right. And Conservative supporters need to accept the possibility of and then work through the implications of the pollsters having the Labour figure about right. Neither seems to have done this yet.
    I suspect that Yougov has the Tories too high and UKIP a bit low.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    BigRich said:

    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!

    We live in a would were some people still go hungry, the population is rising and the amount of land fixed. and you are happy to tell the would, even boast that you are going to work for an organisation that will oppose efficiently producing food on a small area or land.


    Except hunger is caused by inefficient distribution of food not insufficient production. Many farming practices that produce "cheap" food are unsustainable (requiring massive external input to keep the land productive) with big negative externalities.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991

    kle4 said:

    The outbreak of Tory councillors deleting their twitter & FB accounts seems to have spread from Scotland to England.

    https://twitter.com/IsolatedBrit/status/863649855331282944

    It seems that all across the nation(s) Tories have taken Tessy's Nasty party speech as an aspiration rather than a reproach.

    Well the gypsy remark is out of line, but without delving into it the rest might just be a, you know, joke.

    Exactly the same one that at least two PBers made...
    Without the gypsy remark, crucially. But it's why I assume he was joking, but crossed a line, rather than being an example of the reactionary end times. Though since apparently people would vote to leave Eurovision, who can say.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    justin124 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Martin Boon of ICM was on Twitter last night, as TSE noted, and if ICM have a poll imminent it certainly isn't showing Labour at 30%. It's rare to see a pollster so openly sceptical about rivals' findings.

    I honestly believe that polls are going to to struggle to find Lab -> Con switchers this time, normally they are easy to identify in the centre ground, this time because of the PM's pitch they are coming from the working classes, a group which is notoriously difficult to poll accurately.
    Labour supporters need to accept the possibility of and then work through the implications of the pollsters having the Conservative figure about right. And Conservative supporters need to accept the possibility of and then work through the implications of the pollsters having the Labour figure about right. Neither seems to have done this yet.
    I suspect that Yougov has the Tories too high and UKIP a bit low.
    As I said earlier, I still expect UKIP to poll 1 million votes.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    I have spent a little time this morning looking at the current state of the parties in the opinion polls.

    The current position, as indicated by an average of the last ten published GB-wide opinion polls, is as follows:

    Con 47.0% (+9.2)
    Lab 29.9% (-1.3)
    Lib Dem 9.1% (+1.0)
    Ukip 5.6% (-7.3)
    Green 2.9% (-0.9)
    Other (incl SNP & PC) 5.5% (-0.7)

    Changes versus GE2015

    Next I attempted to make a reasonable guesstimate of the net flows of voters behind those headline figures, relative to the position in 2015:

    Let Ukip defectors break 5:1 in favour of Con over Lab
    Con = 37.8 + 6.1 = 43.9
    Lab = 31.2 + 1.2 - 32.4

    Grant the Tories 1 in 7 SNP voters, plus 1 in 4 SLAB voters
    Con = 43.9 + 0.7 + 0.6 = 45.2
    Lab = 32.4 - 0.6 = 31.8
    Other = 6.2 - 0.7 = 5.5

    Assign all of the Green defectors to Labour:
    Lab = 31.8 + 0.9 = 32.7
    Green = 3.8 - 0.9 = 2.9

    Attribute all of the Lib Dem increase to net gains from Labour:
    Lib Dem = 8.1 + 1.0 = 9.1
    Lab = 32.7 - 1.0 = 31.7

    Therefore, the direct transfer of voters from Lab to Con is as follows:
    Con = 45.2 + 1.8 = 47.0
    Lab = 31.7 - 1.8 = 29.9
    i.e. a swing of 1.8%

    These assumptions imply a net benefit to the Tories equivalent to a transfer of about 38% of the 2015 Ukip vote in the bulk of seats, allowing for a modest flow of Ukip voters back to Labour, plus an additional net movement of about 1.8% of the electorate directly from Lab to Con. Labour's losses to the Lib Dems and gains from the Greens basically cancel each other out.

    (TBC)

    Why can't you take the polls [ whichever you choose ] and tweak it with proper representative regional polls ? Then your transfers will be built in.

    The problem with transfers appearing in opinion polls, like regions, is that there are not sufficient in number for them to be weighted by themselves. For the country as a whole, yes, but not for regions.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    For me these pictures of the younger Corbyn sucking up to those IRA murderers at a time when they were still murdering, Hamas and now Assad are yet more evidence that this person is completely unfit to be a member of Parliament, let alone PM. But I have yet to see much evidence that it has any traction with a significant number of people less interested in politics.
    Tories are panicking. They did not resort to this in the first three weeks.
    Chortle ....

    You can certainly smell the Tory fear in the air as they peruse substantial double digit poll leads.
    I take it you are leaving the ARSE until the final stretch.
    ELBOW - technically incomplete without ICM (and Survation, if they're doing one this weekend).

    So far seven polls with fieldwork end-dates during week ending 14th.
    But the Tory lead is in freefall!

    Con Lab LD UKIP Tory Lead
    23-Apr-17 45.50 26.10 10.40 8.60 19.40
    30-Apr-17 46.33 28.11 10.22 6.67 18.22
    07-May-17 47.10 28.50 9.40 6.40 18.60
    14-May-17 46.86 30.57 9.29 5.43 16.29
    You are right. A fall of 2.3 points in a week. Multiplied by 3.5 weeks gives us a Tory lead of 8 points.

    What was the starting point ?

    TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK !
    Except that, on that measure, the Conservative position is better than it was three weeks ago.

    *IF* the polls are right and Labour's support is firming up, any net gains are coming from the also-rans - and the lower their support drops, the more difficult they will become to squeeze.

    The Labour party is not going to get to 39% of the vote due to (currently almost non-existent) controversy over Triple Lock pensions. Or by any other means.
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,917

    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!

    I wish you every success, a very worthy cause.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Now burying UKIP on the Weekly Politics. We shall see.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MikeK said:

    justin124 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Martin Boon of ICM was on Twitter last night, as TSE noted, and if ICM have a poll imminent it certainly isn't showing Labour at 30%. It's rare to see a pollster so openly sceptical about rivals' findings.

    I honestly believe that polls are going to to struggle to find Lab -> Con switchers this time, normally they are easy to identify in the centre ground, this time because of the PM's pitch they are coming from the working classes, a group which is notoriously difficult to poll accurately.
    Labour supporters need to accept the possibility of and then work through the implications of the pollsters having the Conservative figure about right. And Conservative supporters need to accept the possibility of and then work through the implications of the pollsters having the Labour figure about right. Neither seems to have done this yet.
    I suspect that Yougov has the Tories too high and UKIP a bit low.
    As I said earlier, I still expect UKIP to poll 1 million votes.
    They will vote about 1.25m
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    For me these pictures of the younger Corbyn sucking up to those IRA murderers at a time when they were still murdering, Hamas and now Assad are yet more evidence that this person is completely unfit to be a member of Parliament, let alone PM. But I have yet to see much evidence that it has any traction with a significant number of people less interested in politics.
    Tories are panicking. They did not resort to this in the first three weeks.
    Chortle ....

    You can certainly smell the Tory fear in the air as they peruse substantial double digit poll leads.
    I take it you are leaving the ARSE until the final stretch.
    ELBOW - technically incomplete without ICM (and Survation, if they're doing one this weekend).

    So far seven polls with fieldwork end-dates during week ending 14th.
    But the Tory lead is in freefall!

    Con Lab LD UKIP Tory Lead
    23-Apr-17 45.50 26.10 10.40 8.60 19.40
    30-Apr-17 46.33 28.11 10.22 6.67 18.22
    07-May-17 47.10 28.50 9.40 6.40 18.60
    14-May-17 46.86 30.57 9.29 5.43 16.29
    You are right. A fall of 2.3 points in a week. Multiplied by 3.5 weeks gives us a Tory lead of 8 points.

    What was the starting point ?

    TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK !
    Except that, on that measure, the Conservative position is better than it was three weeks ago.

    *IF* the polls are right and Labour's support is firming up, any net gains are coming from the also-rans - and the lower their support drops, the more difficult they will become to squeeze.

    The Labour party is not going to get to 39% of the vote due to (currently almost non-existent) controversy over Triple Lock pensions. Or by any other means.
    Do you know what a joke is ?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    MikeK said:

    Now burying UKIP on the Weekly Politics. We shall see.

    Sorry, EDIT: The Sunday Politics.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    I wish people didn't label poor interviews as car crashes. I can only think of a handful which lived up the horrible expectation conjured up. Usually involving Lucy Powell or Diane Abbott.
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    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,917
    Floater said:

    Except she isn't. Most of the Labour politicians who would give May a run for her money are maintaining a very low national profile this time around.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    edited May 2017
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:
    For me these pictures of the younger Corbyn sucking up to those IRA murderers at a time when they were still murdering, Hamas and now Assad are yet more evidence that this person is completely unfit to be a member of Parliament, let alone PM. But I have yet to see much evidence that it has any traction with a significant number of people less interested in politics.
    Tories are panicking. They did not resort to this in the first three weeks.
    Chortle ....

    You can certainly smell the Tory fear in the air as they peruse substantial double digit poll leads.
    I take it you are leaving the ARSE until the final stretch.
    ELBOW - technically incomplete without ICM (and Survation, if they're doing one this weekend).

    So far seven polls with fieldwork end-dates during week ending 14th.
    But the Tory lead is in freefall!

    Con Lab LD UKIP Tory Lead
    23-Apr-17 45.50 26.10 10.40 8.60 19.40
    30-Apr-17 46.33 28.11 10.22 6.67 18.22
    07-May-17 47.10 28.50 9.40 6.40 18.60
    14-May-17 46.86 30.57 9.29 5.43 16.29
    You are right. A fall of 2.3 points in a week. Multiplied by 3.5 weeks gives us a Tory lead of 8 points.

    What was the starting point ?

    TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK ! TRIPLE LOCK !
    Except that, on that measure, the Conservative position is better than it was three weeks ago.

    *IF* the polls are right and Labour's support is firming up, any net gains are coming from the also-rans - and the lower their support drops, the more difficult they will become to squeeze.

    The Labour party is not going to get to 39% of the vote due to (currently almost non-existent) controversy over Triple Lock pensions. Or by any other means.
    Do you know what a joke is ?
    It's that thing that comes with a smiley face.

    Didn't include it once and someone thought, or acted as though they thought, my comment that May called the election to see of Osborne was real.
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Not seen the underlying data - but this might explain in part why SCON appear to be shifting tactics - next Ruth will be promising to keep funding the Bedroom Tax and maintain no Tuition fees !!

    https://twitter.com/MrJohnNicolson/status/863686752346791936
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,252
    MikeK said:

    Now burying UKIP on the Weekly Politics. We shall see.

    Surely dumping another couple of barrow loads of soil on something that's already six feet under.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,412
    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:



    They hardly did anything in the first 3 weeks. At some point they will inevitably join in this election campaign thing. What will happen then I wonder?

    Their theory was (I think) that by letting Labour make the initial running, Corbyn would implode and they could then step in and pick up the pieces. That hasn't happened. They will obviously try the IRA/Hamas stuff big time, but I think that's factored in already - sure, people don't necessarily know exactly who said what in 1974 or whatever, but they've got the general idea. Corbyn was as a backbencher willing to meet people on the margins and make friendly comments - that bothers voters or it doesn't, but it's not news.

    Personally, I found as an MP that one ends up being photographed with all kinds of people unless one's incredibly careful (which backbenchers usually aren't) - people come to see you on a delegation, or meet you at a reception where photographers are all over the place, and yesterday's friends or at least polite partners in joint efforts turn out to be today's enemies and vice versa. Assad is a very good example, and Sinn Fein is too. I met someone from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation two weeks ago and said polite things about him - that doesn't make me a country sports fan.
    While I agree the plan to have Corbyn implode hasnt worked, and people are photographed next to others without supporting them, that doesn't mean you cannot find such a photo and the person did support the one they are photoed with.
    I am sure there are pictures of Martin McGuinness shaking hands with the Queen.
    Yebbut that was AFTER peace broke out....
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    By the way, if anyone's interested, I'll be taking up a new job next month as Head of Policy for the non-partisan Compassion in World Farming., who work to oppose factory farming. I think that will mark my definitive retirement from party politics, though I expect I'll still comment as a detached observer. It's been fun!

    But what happens if you win; will the poor animals have to wait?
    I'm not standing!

    By the way, welcome back - I recall you took time out for health reasons. I hope you're feeling better.
    Oh, I am behind the times. On the health thing, it wasn't my health that was the issue, rather Someone decided the blog could do without me.

    Anyway good luck for the future.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,252
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The outbreak of Tory councillors deleting their twitter & FB accounts seems to have spread from Scotland to England.

    https://twitter.com/IsolatedBrit/status/863649855331282944

    It seems that all across the nation(s) Tories have taken Tessy's Nasty party speech as an aspiration rather than a reproach.

    Well the gypsy remark is out of line, but without delving into it the rest might just be a, you know, joke.

    Poor old Nick, such a delicate flower that he deleted his twitter account because of a crap joke.
    Well that's politics and he might have much worse ones, much more racist ones. I was merely making the point that I cannot tell the seriousness of the hard border retaliation stuff, since plenty made that joke. And I did say the gypsy remark was out of line, I wasn't acting like it was ok.

    Maybe dial back the sarcasm for five seconds?
    It is traditionally the day for sermonizing I suppose.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,966
    Corbyn wanted the IRA to win. Any examination of his engagement with Northern Ireland shows this. Two weeks after the Brighton bombing he invited Sinn Fein leaders to the House of Commons. He stood in silence to honour the IRA dead. He voted against the Good Friday agreement. I don't know if Nick Palmer is being naive, disingenuous or dishonest, but he is wrong. Islington, like Camden, was a very Irish and very pro-Republican in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Pubs played the Soldiers Song at closing time, there were regular collections for the provisionals and Sinn Fein. You did not get on in the Labour party there without solid Republican credentials. Things have changed, time has moved on, but Corbyn cannot undo his past. It's there and it's clear to see. The Queen shook hands with Martin McGuinness because the government told her to. She also shook hands with countless others from all sides in the Northern Ireland conflict. Show me one photo of Jeremy Corbyn shaking hands with a loyalist or a unionist; one of him meeting them or marching with them. There are none. He regarded them as the enemy.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    surbiton said:

    I have spent a little time this morning looking at the current state of the parties in the opinion polls.

    The current position, as indicated by an average of the last ten published GB-wide opinion polls, is as follows:

    Con 47.0% (+9.2)
    Lab 29.9% (-1.3)
    Lib Dem 9.1% (+1.0)
    Ukip 5.6% (-7.3)
    Green 2.9% (-0.9)
    Other (incl SNP & PC) 5.5% (-0.7)

    Changes versus GE2015

    Next I attempted to make a reasonable guesstimate of the net flows of voters behind those headline figures, relative to the position in 2015:

    Let Ukip defectors break 5:1 in favour of Con over Lab
    Con = 37.8 + 6.1 = 43.9
    Lab = 31.2 + 1.2 - 32.4

    Grant the Tories 1 in 7 SNP voters, plus 1 in 4 SLAB voters
    Con = 43.9 + 0.7 + 0.6 = 45.2
    Lab = 32.4 - 0.6 = 31.8
    Other = 6.2 - 0.7 = 5.5

    Assign all of the Green defectors to Labour:
    Lab = 31.8 + 0.9 = 32.7
    Green = 3.8 - 0.9 = 2.9

    Attribute all of the Lib Dem increase to net gains from Labour:
    Lib Dem = 8.1 + 1.0 = 9.1
    Lab = 32.7 - 1.0 = 31.7

    Therefore, the direct transfer of voters from Lab to Con is as follows:
    Con = 45.2 + 1.8 = 47.0
    Lab = 31.7 - 1.8 = 29.9
    i.e. a swing of 1.8%

    These assumptions imply a net benefit to the Tories equivalent to a transfer of about 38% of the 2015 Ukip vote in the bulk of seats, allowing for a modest flow of Ukip voters back to Labour, plus an additional net movement of about 1.8% of the electorate directly from Lab to Con. Labour's losses to the Lib Dems and gains from the Greens basically cancel each other out.

    (TBC)

    Why can't you take the polls [ whichever you choose ] and tweak it with proper representative regional polls ? Then your transfers will be built in.

    The problem with transfers appearing in opinion polls, like regions, is that there are not sufficient in number for them to be weighted by themselves. For the country as a whole, yes, but not for regions.
    Because there are almost no regional polls for England, save for one or two London surveys - and those imply that Labour is doing relatively well in inner London, which we could've deduced both from common sense and from reading the regional sub-samples e.g. from YouGov in any case. We only have separate surveys for Wales and Scotland; the former don't present a picture vastly different from what we would expect based on the GB-wide data (Lab does a bit better and Con a bit worse, but not sufficiently to affect the exchange of seats significantly,) and the latter suggest that the SNP will hold anywhere from a large to an overwhelming majority of their current seats, so neither makes very much difference to the overall calculus.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    Jason said:

    I really fear for Corbyn when Andrew Neil finally gets to sink his teeth into him. After watching the hapless RLB this morning, dear oh dear, if she is this bad, imagine how Corbyn will suffer - a man with precisely zero intellectual capacity.

    Not a car crash, a multi vehicle pile up in a pea souper on the M1.

    Corbyn is much more experienced and weathered by decades of low key politics. He might still be a relative novice at the big time, and he's lost his cool occasionally, which only makes his fans love him more, but he is able to fight through difficulty better than some of his subordinates.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    walterw said:

    isam

    'Twitter is saying Thornberry has bested Fallon on Marr'


    So in the real world we know the reverse is true

    In the real world hardly anyone watches or cares. Who apart from already-partisan (by definition) activists will care either way?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,991
    edited May 2017

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    The outbreak of Tory councillors deleting their twitter & FB accounts seems to have spread from Scotland to England.

    https://twitter.com/IsolatedBrit/status/863649855331282944

    It seems that all across the nation(s) Tories have taken Tessy's Nasty party speech as an aspiration rather than a reproach.

    Well the gypsy remark is out of line, but without delving into it the rest might just be a, you know, joke.

    Poor old Nick, such a delicate flower that he deleted his twitter account because of a crap joke.
    Well that's politics and he might have much worse ones, much more racist ones. I was merely making the point that I cannot tell the seriousness of the hard border retaliation stuff, since plenty made that joke. And I did say the gypsy remark was out of line, I wasn't acting like it was ok.

    Maybe dial back the sarcasm for five seconds?
    It is traditionally the day for sermonizing I suppose.
    Amen.

    I sermonise on all days. Though at least I acknowlege i get on my high horse too much. It may not totally excuse self righteousness, but I'd hope self awareness counts for a little compared to its utter lack.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,554
    surbiton said:

    There was under the extended support.

    That's not what has been reported. Extended support for XP finished in 2014, and even the custom support agreements should be over now as those are meant to have a maximum three year lifespan. Also as far as I can tell those agreements don't provide access to all patches nor do patches come for free, the more you use the more it costs. The whole point of a custom support agreement is that it is meant to cover a transition to a newer version of Windows, not to keep the OS going indefinitely.

    What seems to have worked for NHS Wales was blocking email and file shares, and more proactive management in general, not paying for XP support.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,314
    Rentoul is talking Rayner up a little this morning.

    Seems bonkers that she might be next leader, but who knows. I have had a nibble on my ever-expanding next Lab leader book.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/behind-the-scenes-in-the-election-the-corbyn-era-may-be-coming-to-an-end-a7734026.html

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,986

    surbiton said:

    I have spent a little time this morning looking at the current state of the parties in the opinion polls.

    The current position, as indicated by an average of the last ten published GB-wide opinion polls, is as follows:

    Con 47.0% (+9.2)
    Lab 29.9% (-1.3)
    Lib Dem 9.1% (+1.0)
    Ukip 5.6% (-7.3)
    Green 2.9% (-0.9)
    Other (incl SNP & PC) 5.5% (-0.7)

    Changes versus GE2015

    Next I attempted to make a reasonable guesstimate of the net flows of voters behind those headline figures, relative to the position in 2015:

    Let Ukip defectors break 5:1 in favour of Con over Lab
    Con = 37.8 + 6.1 = 43.9
    Lab = 31.2 + 1.2 - 32.4

    Grant the Tories 1 in 7 SNP voters, plus 1 in 4 SLAB voters
    Con = 43.9 + 0.7 + 0.6 = 45.2
    Lab = 32.4 - 0.6 = 31.8
    Other = 6.2 - 0.7 = 5.5

    Assign all of the Green defectors to Labour:
    Lab = 31.8 + 0.9 = 32.7
    Green = 3.8 - 0.9 = 2.9

    Attribute all of the Lib Dem increase to net gains from Labour:
    Lib Dem = 8.1 + 1.0 = 9.1
    Lab = 32.7 - 1.0 = 31.7

    Therefore, the direct transfer of voters from Lab to Con is as follows:
    Con = 45.2 + 1.8 = 47.0
    Lab = 31.7 - 1.8 = 29.9
    i.e. a swing of 1.8%

    These assumptions imply a net benefit to the Tories equivalent to a transfer of about 38% of the 2015 Ukip vote in the bulk of seats, allowing for a modest flow of Ukip voters back to Labour, plus an additional net movement of about 1.8% of the electorate directly from Lab to Con. Labour's losses to the Lib Dems and gains from the Greens basically cancel each other out.

    (TBC)

    Why can't you take the polls [ whichever you choose ] and tweak it with proper representative regional polls ? Then your transfers will be built in.

    The problem with transfers appearing in opinion polls, like regions, is that there are not sufficient in number for them to be weighted by themselves. For the country as a whole, yes, but not for regions.
    Because there are almost no regional polls for England, save for one or two London surveys - and those imply that Labour is doing relatively well in inner London, which we could've deduced both from common sense and from reading the regional sub-samples e.g. from YouGov in any case. We only have separate surveys for Wales and Scotland; the former don't present a picture vastly different from what we would expect based on the GB-wide data (Lab does a bit better and Con a bit worse, but not sufficiently to affect the exchange of seats significantly,) and the latter suggest that the SNP will hold anywhere from a large to an overwhelming majority of their current seats, so neither makes very much difference to the overall calculus.
    I'd love to be directed to this mass of "proper representative regional polls"
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,894
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    I am surprised the Zoomers have not been bigging up the Sainted Nicola's appearance on Marr this morning

    @PolhomeEditor: Nicola Sturgeon says that if you ignore literacy and numeracy, Scottish education is doing well. Righto. #marr

    Oh...

    Scott only peasants and cretins watch Marr, so we will leave it to you to enlighten us.
    Afternoon Malc! :smiley:
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191

    Rentoul is talking Rayner up a little this morning.

    Seems bonkers that she might be next leader, but who knows. I have had a nibble on my ever-expanding next Lab leader book.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/behind-the-scenes-in-the-election-the-corbyn-era-may-be-coming-to-an-end-a7734026.html

    ungulate.
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    kle4 said:

    I wish people didn't label poor interviews as car crashes. I can only think of a handful which lived up the horrible expectation conjured up. Usually involving Lucy Powell or Diane Abbott.

    That one was on the edge.

    "I'm not answering that"
    "or that"
    "nope"
    " zzzzp"
This discussion has been closed.