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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Even though it is fighting fewer seats and had no MPs the BBC

SystemSystem Posts: 11,686
edited May 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Even though it is fighting fewer seats and had no MPs the BBC is favouring UKIP over the Greens in its GE2017 specials

This morning the BBC announced it’s lineup of General Election specials. They are listed in the table above. Surprisingly UKIP, which has 377 seats is being given an Andrew Neil interview but the Greens, with 468 candidates, are not

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Comments

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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    I expect the Corbyn QT to cost Labour badly.
  • Options
    JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    There's no point to UKIP any more surely.

    Did what they set out to achieve, now they can retire.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Any Welsh or Scottish poll or even predictions ?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    More People voted for UKIP in 2015 than LD and SNP combined
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour

    That's why the halls were littered with champagne bottles in 1997.

    Oh...
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    isam said:

    More People voted for UKIP in 2015 than LD and SNP combined

    UKIP will also lose more votes than LD and SNP combined.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    If the Green co-leaders do get an interview, they should be forced to deliver it in the style of I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue's 'Letter Writing' game, taking turns to say a word.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    ORB poll (changes since last week)

    Con 46 (nc) Lab 32 (+1) LD 8 (-1) UKIP 7 (-1)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/exclusive-telegraph-orb-poll-conservatives-lead-across-social/

    LDs are dead. Lab just keep creeping up, Corbyn safe as houses. Remember when close to 25 was seen as common? Really is showing Ed M was worse than I thought. Cooper and the others won't challenge him if they get that high.

    UKIP score way too high though.
    Kipper score should be roughly just over half of the VI score shouldn't it? Prob standing in places they are likely to do ok
    Some places perhaps. I'd be interested in an analysis, as they are standing down in some places they did very well, explicitly to help the local Brexity candidate in some cases. They got 18% in my area last time and aren't standing this time.

    OT Blimey, just seem just how many seats the LDs held in the SW in 2010, and how unlikely they are to make inroads this time. Rough times.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    The broadcasters are in a bit of a pickle here because based on the criteria they lay down - current and recent support - there are actually only two main parties in GB as a whole. And that's not enough for them to make good TV.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    Don't be ridiculous. The BBC is full of left wing metropolitan liberals, as it were.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    Overall the lineup looks fairly similar to what happened two years ago but with the Lib Dems being given a greater presence.

    How is that justifiable? I guess by standing still, edging up barely, they have proportionally gone up due to UKIP cratering.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    FPT:
    Prodicus said:

    Tory own goal. Someone suppress this ghastly Rudd woman.

    I heard Rudd on the radio this morning and she didn't inspire confidence, she sounded well out of her depth.

    After waffling on about NHS IT Rudd went on to the latest brainwave about the young having a right to erase their past from social media. It's almost as though the government are completely aware that funny/provocative/stupid stuff that gets posted on social media doesn't stay on those services alone for very long. There are forums, image hosts, websites, and services that are full of stuff scraped from social media. Instead of wasting time and money on an impractical "right to delete" they might spend the same effort on educating people to be more careful about what they post and create in the first place. The basic rule though is that you can't delete stuff from the internet.
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    ProdicusProdicus Posts: 658
    Scott_P said:

    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour

    That's why the halls were littered with champagne bottles in 1997.

    Oh...
    Be fair - that was 20 years ago. It's all so different now.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    edited May 2017
    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    More People voted for UKIP in 2015 than LD and SNP combined

    UKIP will also lose more votes than LD and SNP combined.
    It's not really for the BBC to factor in that sort of thing though. Fact is UKIP won the European Parliament elections and was the third party by vote share in GE2015. Given the divergences between votes and seats, it's difficult to choose levels of representation in a fair way.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    Wow, it has high profile presenters in its ranks who probably vote Tory, the organisation must therefore be Tory. I sure hope they don't have other ones who almost certainly vote Labour.

    Good Corbynism there though.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Prodicus said:

    Be fair - that was 20 years ago. It's all so different now.

    True, 20 years ago Andrew Marr, Andrew Neil and David Dimbleby were all around
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    edited May 2017
    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    More People voted for UKIP in 2015 than LD and SNP combined

    UKIP will also lose more votes than LD and SNP combined.
    At the last GE it was considered ok for UKIP to be given less coverage than the Lib Dems because the calculation used past votes rather than current opinion. That was obviously ridiculous as any fool could see UKIP were going to out poll the Lib Dems, so it seems strange that the Lib Dems are given more prominence again having got less than 2/3 UKIP vote in 2015. It isn't as if they are nailed on to improve on their 2015 vote, or are particularly relevant.

    Not that I am particularly complaining about this years amount of UKIP coverage. It was the 2015 debacle that was wrong
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    You're kidding right? BBC has a left wing bias.
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    JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    ORB poll (changes since last week)

    Con 46 (nc) Lab 32 (+1) LD 8 (-1) UKIP 7 (-1)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/exclusive-telegraph-orb-poll-conservatives-lead-across-social/

    LDs are dead. Lab just keep creeping up, Corbyn safe as houses. Remember when close to 25 was seen as common? Really is showing Ed M was worse than I thought. Cooper and the others won't challenge him if they get that high.

    UKIP score way too high though.
    Kipper score should be roughly just over half of the VI score shouldn't it? Prob standing in places they are likely to do ok
    Some places perhaps. I'd be interested in an analysis, as they are standing down in some places they did very well, explicitly to help the local Brexity candidate in some cases. They got 18% in my area last time and aren't standing this time.

    OT Blimey, just seem just how many seats the LDs held in the SW in 2010, and how unlikely they are to make inroads this time. Rough times.
    My fave LD South West statto seat is Somerton and Frome - 4 Lib Dem holds in 1997, 2001 & 2005 with sub 1000 majority, then in 2010 it went up to nearly 2000 (!) thanks to tactical voting (and the ridiculously named Annunziata Rees-Mogg got the highest number of votes for a losing candidate)

    But then the LDs were swept away and the Tory majority in 2015 was 20,268!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    Ishmael_Z said:

    I expect the Corbyn QT to cost Labour badly.

    One would hope. But he might pull his 'confused, gentle soul' thing, which works remarkably well. I hope he loses his cool - when he does, its quite something.
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited May 2017
    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    The BBC is trying to promote UKIP and ignoring the Greens to help beleaguered Labour. It's obvious and desperate.
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    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    FPT and for SouthamObserver:
    How do you feel about companies? Google, for instance, is notorious for not paying a huge amount in tax, and so by your definition not a wealth creator, but it has utterly transformed the average persons access to information. I often tell classes that the iPad they have on their desk gives them access in a much easier way to more information than I had available to me when I was at university with a copyright library across the road. Similarly Apple with iTunes U. Surely that is adding a huge amount of value?
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited May 2017
    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West. Best chance of a Labour gain I would say, just ahead of East Lothian, Brighton Kemptown and Cardiff North.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    edited May 2017

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    ORB poll (changes since last week)

    Con 46 (nc) Lab 32 (+1) LD 8 (-1) UKIP 7 (-1)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/exclusive-telegraph-orb-poll-conservatives-lead-across-social/

    LDs are dead. Lab just keep creeping up, Corbyn safe as houses. Remember when close to 25 was seen as common? Really is showing Ed M was worse than I thought. Cooper and the others won't challenge him if they get that high.

    UKIP score way too high though.
    Kipper score should be roughly just over half of the VI score shouldn't it? Prob standing in places they are likely to do ok
    Some places perhaps. I'd be interested in an analysis, as they are standing down in some places they did very well, explicitly to help the local Brexity candidate in some cases. They got 18% in my area last time and aren't standing this time.

    OT Blimey, just seem just how many seats the LDs held in the SW in 2010, and how unlikely they are to make inroads this time. Rough times.
    My fave LD South West statto seat is Somerton and Frome - 4 Lib Dem holds in 1997, 2001 & 2005 with sub 1000 majority, then in 2010 it went up to nearly 2000 (!) thanks to tactical voting (and the ridiculously named Annunziata Rees-Mogg got the highest number of votes for a losing candidate)

    But then the LDs were swept away and the Tory majority in 2015 was 20,268!
    Remarkable indeed. Locals really didn't like the coalition or really loved Cameron.

    I recall reading CCHQ asked Annunziata if she could go by Nancy instead, and she said no. I hope that story is true.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    Wow, it has high profile presenters in its ranks who probably vote Tory, the organisation must therefore be Tory. I sure hope they don't have other ones who almost certainly vote Labour.

    Good Corbynism there though.
    It's the same line of 'reasoning' as "this opinion pollster has a couple of Tories in senior positions, therefore the poll showing a 22% deficit is lies and we're going to win".
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited May 2017
    Probably just as well the Greens are not invited to the high table, Brillo interviewed Caroline Lukas a few weeks ago on the subject of the now defunct ‘progressive alliance’, she came across as worthy, but slightly barking none the less.
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    edited May 2017
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    JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    nunu said:

    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    You're kidding right? BBC has a left wing bias.
    BBC seems to me to be on average very slightly Blairite-lefty liberal wishywashy, but manages to do a decent job of neutrality in the end.

    Probably not many people there at the moment who are really serious supporters of either main party...? Not since they got rid of Paul Mason :-)
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    I make it, if the Scottish split was:

    SNP 45, Con 28, Lab 16, LD 6, Gr 2, UKIP 1

    This would give with UNS:

    SNP 53, Con 4, Lab 1, LD 1
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    WRT the ORB poll, the Conservatives are up 4% on the start of the campaign, Labour up 1%.

    For Labour to win 30% or so means very little if the Conservatives are close to 50%.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    kle4 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    I expect the Corbyn QT to cost Labour badly.

    One would hope. But he might pull his 'confused, gentle soul' thing, which works remarkably well. I hope he loses his cool - when he does, its quite something.
    One or two Falklands veterans or relatives of IRA victims in the audience should do the trick.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    ORB poll (changes since last week)

    Con 46 (nc) Lab 32 (+1) LD 8 (-1) UKIP 7 (-1)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/exclusive-telegraph-orb-poll-conservatives-lead-across-social/

    LDs are dead. Lab just keep creeping up, Corbyn safe as houses. Remember when close to 25 was seen as common? Really is showing Ed M was worse than I thought. Cooper and the others won't challenge him if they get that high.

    UKIP score way too high though.
    Kipper score should be roughly just over half of the VI score shouldn't it? Prob standing in places they are likely to do ok
    Some places perhaps. I'd be interested in an analysis, as they are standing down in some places they did very well, explicitly to help the local Brexity candidate in some cases. They got 18% in my area last time and aren't standing this time.

    OT Blimey, just seem just how many seats the LDs held in the SW in 2010, and how unlikely they are to make inroads this time. Rough times.
    My fave LD South West statto seat is Somerton and Frome - 4 Lib Dem holds in 1997, 2001 & 2005 with sub 1000 majority, then in 2010 it went up to nearly 2000 (!) thanks to tactical voting (and the ridiculously named Annunziata Rees-Mogg got the highest number of votes for a losing candidate)

    But then the LDs were swept away and the Tory majority in 2015 was 20,268!
    Remarkable indeed. Locals really didn't like the coalition or really loved Cameron.

    I recall reading CCHQ asked Annunziata if she could go by Nancy instead, and she said no. I hope that story is true.
    They wanted her to run as Nancy Mogg.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    FPT and for SouthamObserver:
    How do you feel about companies? Google, for instance, is notorious for not paying a huge amount in tax, and so by your definition not a wealth creator, but it has utterly transformed the average persons access to information. I often tell classes that the iPad they have on their desk gives them access in a much easier way to more information than I had available to me when I was at university with a copyright library across the road. Similarly Apple with iTunes U. Surely that is adding a huge amount of value?

    It is. And they are making huge profits as a result. I would argue that they should be paying a lot more tax as they benefit massively from the investments that governments make in a wide variety of areas - and, what's more - they need prosperous, information-hungry, service and product consuming users. They also owe a lot of their success to state-guaranteed intellectual property rights. If Google lost the exclusive use if its trademarks, patents and copyrights it would very quickly find itself in a whole heap of trouble.

  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    The BBC is trying to promote UKIP and ignoring the Greens to help beleaguered Labour. It's obvious and desperate.
    Interviewing NUT ALL is not helping UKIP at all.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    My guess is that, even though Hallam has quite Corbyn-friendly demographics, the Labour vote really did max out there in 2015. There surely will have been some people there in 2015 who would've voted LD anywhere else, but just voted Lab to try to get Clegg out. That surely will be lessened this time since, while the LDs are irrelevant, Clegg isn't really "toxic" anymore.
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    BaskervilleBaskerville Posts: 391
    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    The BBC is the establishment, it is the elite and it is London. Therefore its political bias is whatever the establishment, the elite and London believe at any given time. At the moment, that means it is anti-Brexit, pro-immigration and multiculturalism, pro-Greenpeace, anti-Christian and pro-all other religions. Historically, it is permanently anti-Tory, was pro-Labour under Blair and has a soft-spot for the LibDems so long as they don't rock their boats.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    Wow, it has high profile presenters in its ranks who probably vote Tory, the organisation must therefore be Tory. I sure hope they don't have other ones who almost certainly vote Labour.

    Good Corbynism there though.
    Using the favourite PB expression, can you provide evidence that I am a Corbynite, you moron ?
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
  • Options
    JonCisBackJonCisBack Posts: 911
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    ORB poll (changes since last week)

    Con 46 (nc) Lab 32 (+1) LD 8 (-1) UKIP 7 (-1)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/exclusive-telegraph-orb-poll-conservatives-lead-across-social/

    LDs are dead. Lab just keep creeping up, Corbyn safe as houses. Remember when close to 25 was seen as common? Really is showing Ed M was worse than I thought. Cooper and the others won't challenge him if they get that high.

    UKIP score way too high though.
    Kipper score should be roughly just over half of the VI score shouldn't it? Prob standing in places they are likely to do ok
    Some places perhaps. I'd be interested in an analysis, as they are standing down in some places they did very well, explicitly to help the local Brexity candidate in some cases. They got 18% in my area last time and aren't standing this time.

    OT Blimey, just seem just how many seats the LDs held in the SW in 2010, and how unlikely they are to make inroads this time. Rough times.
    My fave LD South West statto seat is Somerton and Frome - 4 Lib Dem holds in 1997, 2001 & 2005 with sub 1000 majority, then in 2010 it went up to nearly 2000 (!) thanks to tactical voting (and the ridiculously named Annunziata Rees-Mogg got the highest number of votes for a losing candidate)

    But then the LDs were swept away and the Tory majority in 2015 was 20,268!
    Remarkable indeed. Locals really didn't like the coalition or really loved Cameron.

    I recall reading CCHQ asked Annunziata if she could go by Nancy instead, and she said no. I hope that story is true.
    They wanted her to run as Nancy Mogg.
    That's worse - sounds like she has 15 cats and smells of wee
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    calum said:
    Shame the guy on the extreme right has his message the wrong way up.

    I'm sure there is a metaphor in there somewhere...
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    Wow, it has high profile presenters in its ranks who probably vote Tory, the organisation must therefore be Tory. I sure hope they don't have other ones who almost certainly vote Labour.

    Good Corbynism there though.

    Of course, these are exactly the kind arguments that the swivel-eyed right have been making about the BBC for years. It's funny to see them react to the left holding up a mirror to their rantings.

  • Options
    isam said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    More People voted for UKIP in 2015 than LD and SNP combined

    UKIP will also lose more votes than LD and SNP combined.
    At the last GE it was considered ok for UKIP to be given less coverage than the Lib Dems because the calculation used past votes rather than current opinion. That was obviously ridiculous as any fool could see UKIP were going to out poll the Lib Dems, so it seems strange that the Lib Dems are given more prominence again having got less than 2/3 UKIP vote in 2015. It isn't as if they are nailed on to improve on their 2015 vote, or are particularly relevant
    They weren't given less prominence than the Lib Dems - both were classed as major parties, and received substantial coverage, debate slots and so on. For UKIP, their "major" status was based on recent elections and current polls; for the Lib Dems it was based on the fact they won around a quarter of the vote at the previous General Election and had a level of support likely to deliver Parliamentary seats again (which it did - fewer than they'd have liked but substantially more than UKIP).

    The rules have changed a bit since so you are required to give due prominence taking into account both measures of past and current support. UKIP can point to the last General Election in terms of past support - although it was one where they got a lot of votes but just one MP. In terms of present support, they have nothing to say. The last electoral test, the local elections, were an unmitigated disaster. Most people in the UK won't even have the opportunity to vote for a UKIP candidate in the unlikely event they wanted to. And it's a near certainty that they will have fewer MPs than the Greens in the next Parliament (i.e. nil).
  • Options
    ProdicusProdicus Posts: 658
    calum said:
    Chap on the right is obviously the director of the shoot.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    edited May 2017
    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    Wow, it has high profile presenters in its ranks who probably vote Tory, the organisation must therefore be Tory. I sure hope they don't have other ones who almost certainly vote Labour.

    Good Corbynism there though.
    Using the favourite PB expression, can you provide evidence that I am a Corbynite, you moron ?
    It was a joke. They do love to talk about how pro-Tory the BBC is after all. Even if you were serious, sharing one characteristic with them would not mean you are the same in everything.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    Your'e probably correct, but it's only £3.
  • Options

    calum said:
    Shame the guy on the extreme right has his message the wrong way up.

    I'm sure there is a metaphor in there somewhere...
    It's a brilliant ploy to spread Tory appeal to those in the East Renfrewshire area who habitually stand on their heads. Again, it shows what a genius Lynton Crosby is etc.
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    ProdicusProdicus Posts: 658
    Essexit said:

    kle4 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    I expect the Corbyn QT to cost Labour badly.

    One would hope. But he might pull his 'confused, gentle soul' thing, which works remarkably well. I hope he loses his cool - when he does, its quite something.
    One or two Falklands veterans or relatives of IRA victims in the audience should do the trick.
    Sadly, the BBC does not have the phone numbers of those people.
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046

    calum said:
    Shame the guy on the extreme right has his message the wrong way up.

    I'm sure there is a metaphor in there somewhere...
    This chap is a good example of a we in Scotland call a "numpty" !!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    ORB poll (changes since last week)

    Con 46 (nc) Lab 32 (+1) LD 8 (-1) UKIP 7 (-1)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/exclusive-telegraph-orb-poll-conservatives-lead-across-social/

    LDs are dead. Lab just keep creeping up, Corbyn safe as houses. Remember when close to 25 was seen as common? Really is showing Ed M was worse than I thought. Cooper and the others won't challenge him if they get that high.

    UKIP score way too high though.
    Kipper score should be roughly just over half of the VI score shouldn't it? Prob standing in places they are likely to do ok
    Some places perhaps. I'd be interested in an analysis, as they are standing down in some places they did very well, explicitly to help the local Brexity candidate in some cases. They got 18% in my area last time and aren't standing this time.

    OT Blimey, just seem just how many seats the LDs held in the SW in 2010, and how unlikely they are to make inroads this time. Rough times.
    My fave LD South West statto seat is Somerton and Frome - 4 Lib Dem holds in 1997, 2001 & 2005 with sub 1000 majority, then in 2010 it went up to nearly 2000 (!) thanks to tactical voting (and the ridiculously named Annunziata Rees-Mogg got the highest number of votes for a losing candidate)

    But then the LDs were swept away and the Tory majority in 2015 was 20,268!
    Remarkable indeed. Locals really didn't like the coalition or really loved Cameron.

    I recall reading CCHQ asked Annunziata if she could go by Nancy instead, and she said no. I hope that story is true.
    They wanted her to run as Nancy Mogg.
    That's worse - sounds like she has 15 cats and smells of wee
    I agree. But CCHQ thought it would sound more working class.
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    The BBC is trying to promote UKIP and ignoring the Greens to help beleaguered Labour. It's obvious and desperate.
    Interviewing NUT ALL is not helping UKIP at all.
    Nuttall's an idiot who's useful to the Beeb in keeping the Greens off the box.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780

    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    BBC is anti-Labour and anti-Green. No surprise there. The Corporation governed by Tories and has in its ranks, Andrew Neil, Jeremy Paxman cannot be considered anything else.

    Wow, it has high profile presenters in its ranks who probably vote Tory, the organisation must therefore be Tory. I sure hope they don't have other ones who almost certainly vote Labour.

    Good Corbynism there though.

    Of course, these are exactly the kind arguments that the swivel-eyed right have been making about the BBC for years. It's funny to see them react to the left holding up a mirror to their rantings.

    I love it - for variety, if nothing else.
  • Options
    ProdicusProdicus Posts: 658
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    ORB poll (changes since last week)

    Con 46 (nc) Lab 32 (+1) LD 8 (-1) UKIP 7 (-1)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/exclusive-telegraph-orb-poll-conservatives-lead-across-social/

    LDs are dead. Lab just keep creeping up, Corbyn safe as houses. Remember when close to 25 was seen as common? Really is showing Ed M was worse than I thought. Cooper and the others won't challenge him if they get that high.

    UKIP score way too high though.
    Kipper score should be roughly just over half of the VI score shouldn't it? Prob standing in places they are likely to do ok
    Some places perhaps. I'd be interested in an analysis, as they are standing down in some places they did very well, explicitly to help the local Brexity candidate in some cases. They got 18% in my area last time and aren't standing this time.

    OT Blimey, just seem just how many seats the LDs held in the SW in 2010, and how unlikely they are to make inroads this time. Rough times.
    My fave LD South West statto seat is Somerton and Frome - 4 Lib Dem holds in 1997, 2001 & 2005 with sub 1000 majority, then in 2010 it went up to nearly 2000 (!) thanks to tactical voting (and the ridiculously named Annunziata Rees-Mogg got the highest number of votes for a losing candidate)

    But then the LDs were swept away and the Tory majority in 2015 was 20,268!
    Remarkable indeed. Locals really didn't like the coalition or really loved Cameron.

    I recall reading CCHQ asked Annunziata if she could go by Nancy instead, and she said no. I hope that story is true.
    They wanted her to run as Nancy Mogg.
    That's worse - sounds like she has 15 cats and smells of wee
    I agree. But CCHQ thought it would sound more working class.
    ROFL
  • Options
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    My guess is that, even though Hallam has quite Corbyn-friendly demographics, the Labour vote really did max out there in 2015. There surely will have been some people there in 2015 who would've voted LD anywhere else, but just voted Lab to try to get Clegg out. That surely will be lessened this time since, while the LDs are irrelevant, Clegg isn't really "toxic" anymore.
    I'd add to that the fact that Natalie Bennett is standing for the Greens in Sheffield Central, and they are giving it a good go. Labour would have flooded Hallam from the rest of the city in 2015. This time, while they should be okay in the end in Central, they do need to watch their backs.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    ORB poll (changes since last week)

    Con 46 (nc) Lab 32 (+1) LD 8 (-1) UKIP 7 (-1)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/exclusive-telegraph-orb-poll-conservatives-lead-across-social/

    LDs are dead. Lab just keep creeping up, Corbyn safe as houses. Remember when close to 25 was seen as common? Really is showing Ed M was worse than I thought. Cooper and the others won't challenge him if they get that high.

    UKIP score way too high though.
    Kipper score should be roughly just over half of the VI score shouldn't it? Prob standing in places they are likely to do ok
    Some places perhaps. I'd be interested in an analysis, as they are standing down in some places they did very well, explicitly to help the local Brexity candidate in some cases. They got 18% in my area last time and aren't standing this time.

    OT Blimey, just seem just how many seats the LDs held in the SW in 2010, and how unlikely they are to make inroads this time. Rough times.
    My fave LD South West statto seat is Somerton and Frome - 4 Lib Dem holds in 1997, 2001 & 2005 with sub 1000 majority, then in 2010 it went up to nearly 2000 (!) thanks to tactical voting (and the ridiculously named Annunziata Rees-Mogg got the highest number of votes for a losing candidate)

    But then the LDs were swept away and the Tory majority in 2015 was 20,268!
    Remarkable indeed. Locals really didn't like the coalition or really loved Cameron.

    I recall reading CCHQ asked Annunziata if she could go by Nancy instead, and she said no. I hope that story is true.
    They wanted her to run as Nancy Mogg.
    That's worse - sounds like she has 15 cats and smells of wee
    I agree. But CCHQ thought it would sound more working class.
    A key demographic in Somerton and Frome, no doubt.

    (hell, it might be for all I know, although I picture it as a quintessential Toryish Shire)
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,723

    FPT and for SouthamObserver:
    How do you feel about companies? Google, for instance, is notorious for not paying a huge amount in tax, and so by your definition not a wealth creator, but it has utterly transformed the average persons access to information. I often tell classes that the iPad they have on their desk gives them access in a much easier way to more information than I had available to me when I was at university with a copyright library across the road. Similarly Apple with iTunes U. Surely that is adding a huge amount of value?

    My view FWIW is that Brexit will shrink the tax base, particularly from high tax paying financial services companies at the same time as more demands will be made on the public purse for influence buying, not just with the EU. This will squeeze funding for problems that can be substantially addressed by throwing money at them, including social and health care.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721
    nunu said:
    He's just following his leader's example.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    My guess is that, even though Hallam has quite Corbyn-friendly demographics, the Labour vote really did max out there in 2015. There surely will have been some people there in 2015 who would've voted LD anywhere else, but just voted Lab to try to get Clegg out. That surely will be lessened this time since, while the LDs are irrelevant, Clegg isn't really "toxic" anymore.
    Hallam really is super-rich, though. Not just super-rich compared to the rest of Sheffield, but rich like South West Surrey or Hertsmere. Clegg suits it far better than Corbyn.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    What ORB poll ?
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Sean_F said:

    WRT the ORB poll, the Conservatives are up 4% on the start of the campaign, Labour up 1%.

    For Labour to win 30% or so means very little if the Conservatives are close to 50%.

    I continue to maintain that Labour won't even make 30%, and that they're being over-counted: given the copious amounts of data from the secondary questions, most of which is appalling for Labour, the notion that they'll still end up doing about as well as they did under EdM is somewhat difficult to swallow. Ditto the suggestion that the Lib Dems are virtually static relative to their 2015 position.

    Meanwhile...

    https://twitter.com/ElectionsEtc/status/863057807154831360
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    FPT

    "By the way - I assume people would agree that NHS fat cats who chose to spend zero on cyber protection notwithstanding past attacks and several warnings should be sacked."

    Maybe, they should however I don't suppose that they are unusual in not planning for the worst. A few years ago I was involved in an initiative to try and get organisations, especially SMEs, to actively consider "disaster" planning. To consider what would happen if they were hit by a critical incident which involved the loss of access to data, premises, key staff or damage to their reputation (most SMEs hit by such an incident are out of business inside 18 months). It was an utter waste of time.

    Most executives we spoke to, including some in pretty large companies, would accept that there was a risk but it wouldn't happen to them. Anyway there were more important things to think about and money spent on planning to cope with something that, probably, wouldn't happen was money wasted.

    I expect the NHS executives who failed were just in the same category of managers as those we spoke - too busy to actually do their jobs. I should love to get a look at the risk registers of those NHS trusts who were hit by this attack. Indeed I wonder if, to pick a name at random from the list of affected trusts, the London North West Healthcare Trust even has an up to date risk register.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    FF43 said:

    FPT and for SouthamObserver:
    How do you feel about companies? Google, for instance, is notorious for not paying a huge amount in tax, and so by your definition not a wealth creator, but it has utterly transformed the average persons access to information. I often tell classes that the iPad they have on their desk gives them access in a much easier way to more information than I had available to me when I was at university with a copyright library across the road. Similarly Apple with iTunes U. Surely that is adding a huge amount of value?

    My view FWIW is that Brexit will shrink the tax base, particularly from high tax paying financial services companies at the same time as more demands will be made on the public purse for influence buying, not just with the EU. This will squeeze funding for problems that can be substantially addressed by throwing money at them, including social and health care.

    That seems highly likely to me. The extra £350 million a week that leaving the EU is supposed to deliver to the NHS will end up being spent on current liabilities for this reason.

  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    FPT and for SouthamObserver:
    How do you feel about companies? Google, for instance, is notorious for not paying a huge amount in tax, and so by your definition not a wealth creator, but it has utterly transformed the average persons access to information. I often tell classes that the iPad they have on their desk gives them access in a much easier way to more information than I had available to me when I was at university with a copyright library across the road. Similarly Apple with iTunes U. Surely that is adding a huge amount of value?

    It is. And they are making huge profits as a result. I would argue that they should be paying a lot more tax as they benefit massively from the investments that governments make in a wide variety of areas - and, what's more - they need prosperous, information-hungry, service and product consuming users. They also owe a lot of their success to state-guaranteed intellectual property rights. If Google lost the exclusive use if its trademarks, patents and copyrights it would very quickly find itself in a whole heap of trouble.

    On the other hand, Google seem to have reduced their Corporation tax bill by paying their staff more, probably resulting in even more money going to the exchequer. On the subject of trademarks etc, surely even the most swivel-eyed libertarian would say that maintaining the rule of law is, after defence of the realm, the most important job of government.

    I'm going to stop here because I've realised that I've forgotten what it is we are supposed to be arguing about: I suspect that we agree on more than we differ.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    nunu said:
    He's just following his leader's example.
    One thing puzzles me. Why do they need to say things like this ? There are plenty of candidates who do not live in the constituency but promise to do so if elected.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    ORB poll (changes since last week)

    Con 46 (nc) Lab 32 (+1) LD 8 (-1) UKIP 7 (-1)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/exclusive-telegraph-orb-poll-conservatives-lead-across-social/

    LDs are dead. Lab just keep creeping up, Corbyn safe as houses. Remember when close to 25 was seen as common? Really is showing Ed M was worse than I thought. Cooper and the others won't challenge him if they get that high.

    UKIP score way too high though.
    Kipper score should be roughly just over half of the VI score shouldn't it? Prob standing in places they are likely to do ok
    Some places perhaps. I'd be interested in an analysis, as they are standing down in some places they did very well, explicitly to help the local Brexity candidate in some cases. They got 18% in my area last time and aren't standing this time.

    OT Blimey, just seem just how many seats the LDs held in the SW in 2010, and how unlikely they are to make inroads this time. Rough times.
    My fave LD South West statto seat is Somerton and Frome - 4 Lib Dem holds in 1997, 2001 & 2005 with sub 1000 majority, then in 2010 it went up to nearly 2000 (!) thanks to tactical voting (and the ridiculously named Annunziata Rees-Mogg got the highest number of votes for a losing candidate)

    But then the LDs were swept away and the Tory majority in 2015 was 20,268!
    Remarkable indeed. Locals really didn't like the coalition or really loved Cameron.

    I recall reading CCHQ asked Annunziata if she could go by Nancy instead, and she said no. I hope that story is true.
    They wanted her to run as Nancy Mogg.
    That's worse - sounds like she has 15 cats and smells of wee
    I agree. But CCHQ thought it would sound more working class.
    A key demographic in Somerton and Frome, no doubt.

    (hell, it might be for all I know, although I picture it as a quintessential Toryish Shire)
    Like many Tory constituencies, it's picturesque but not especially wealthy.

    But, it's like Quintin Hogg wearing a cloth cap to appeal to Northern voters.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,930

    isam said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    More People voted for UKIP in 2015 than LD and SNP combined

    UKIP will also lose more votes than LD and SNP combined.
    At the last GE it was considered ok for UKIP to be given less coverage than the Lib Dems because the calculation used past votes rather than current opinion. That was obviously ridiculous as any fool could see UKIP were going to out poll the Lib Dems, so it seems strange that the Lib Dems are given more prominence again having got less than 2/3 UKIP vote in 2015. It isn't as if they are nailed on to improve on their 2015 vote, or are particularly relevant
    They weren't given less prominence than the Lib Dems - both were classed as major parties, and received substantial coverage, debate slots and so on. For UKIP, their "major" status was based on recent elections and current polls; for the Lib Dems it was based on the fact they won around a quarter of the vote at the previous General Election and had a level of support likely to deliver Parliamentary seats again (which it did - fewer than they'd have liked but substantially more than UKIP).

    The rules have changed a bit since so you are required to give due prominence taking into account both measures of past and current support. UKIP can point to the last General Election in terms of past support - although it was one where they got a lot of votes but just one MP. In terms of present support, they have nothing to say. The last electoral test, the local elections, were an unmitigated disaster. Most people in the UK won't even have the opportunity to vote for a UKIP candidate in the unlikely event they wanted to. And it's a near certainty that they will have fewer MPs than the Greens in the next Parliament (i.e. nil).
    Yeah yeah whatever

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,756
    edited May 2017

    FPT and for SouthamObserver:
    How do you feel about companies? Google, for instance, is notorious for not paying a huge amount in tax, and so by your definition not a wealth creator, but it has utterly transformed the average persons access to information. I often tell classes that the iPad they have on their desk gives them access in a much easier way to more information than I had available to me when I was at university with a copyright library across the road. Similarly Apple with iTunes U. Surely that is adding a huge amount of value?

    It is. And they are making huge profits as a result. I would argue that they should be paying a lot more tax as they benefit massively from the investments that governments make in a wide variety of areas - and, what's more - they need prosperous, information-hungry, service and product consuming users. They also owe a lot of their success to state-guaranteed intellectual property rights. If Google lost the exclusive use if its trademarks, patents and copyrights it would very quickly find itself in a whole heap of trouble.

    tsk Southam

    the one year you havent given us a drought warning, there's a drought. :-)
  • Options
    How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

    I can't remember anyone at PB.com *cough* complaining about the over-representation on TV of the LibDems compared with the two major parties.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    FPT and for SouthamObserver:
    How do you feel about companies? Google, for instance, is notorious for not paying a huge amount in tax, and so by your definition not a wealth creator, but it has utterly transformed the average persons access to information. I often tell classes that the iPad they have on their desk gives them access in a much easier way to more information than I had available to me when I was at university with a copyright library across the road. Similarly Apple with iTunes U. Surely that is adding a huge amount of value?

    It is. And they are making huge profits as a result. I would argue that they should be paying a lot more tax as they benefit massively from the investments that governments make in a wide variety of areas - and, what's more - they need prosperous, information-hungry, service and product consuming users. They also owe a lot of their success to state-guaranteed intellectual property rights. If Google lost the exclusive use if its trademarks, patents and copyrights it would very quickly find itself in a whole heap of trouble.

    On the other hand, Google seem to have reduced their Corporation tax bill by paying their staff more, probably resulting in even more money going to the exchequer. On the subject of trademarks etc, surely even the most swivel-eyed libertarian would say that maintaining the rule of law is, after defence of the realm, the most important job of government.

    I'm going to stop here because I've realised that I've forgotten what it is we are supposed to be arguing about: I suspect that we agree on more than we differ.

    Ha, ha - I reckon you are probably right!

  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    ORB poll (changes since last week)

    Con 46 (nc) Lab 32 (+1) LD 8 (-1) UKIP 7 (-1)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/13/exclusive-telegraph-orb-poll-conservatives-lead-across-social/

    LDs are dead. Lab just keep creeping up, Corbyn safe as houses. Remember when close to 25 was seen as common? Really is showing Ed M was worse than I thought. Cooper and the others won't challenge him if they get that high.

    UKIP score way too high though.
    Kipper score should be roughly just over half of the VI score shouldn't it? Prob standing in places they are likely to do ok
    Some places perhaps. I'd be interested in an analysis, as they are standing down in some places they did very well, explicitly to help the local Brexity candidate in some cases. They got 18% in my area last time and aren't standing this time.

    OT Blimey, just seem just how many seats the LDs held in the SW in 2010, and how unlikely they are to make inroads this time. Rough times.
    My fave LD South West statto seat is Somerton and Frome - 4 Lib Dem holds in 1997, 2001 & 2005 with sub 1000 majority, then in 2010 it went up to nearly 2000 (!) thanks to tactical voting (and the ridiculously named Annunziata Rees-Mogg got the highest number of votes for a losing candidate)

    But then the LDs were swept away and the Tory majority in 2015 was 20,268!
    Remarkable indeed. Locals really didn't like the coalition or really loved Cameron.

    I recall reading CCHQ asked Annunziata if she could go by Nancy instead, and she said no. I hope that story is true.
    They wanted her to run as Nancy Mogg.
    That's worse - sounds like she has 15 cats and smells of wee
    I agree. But CCHQ thought it would sound more working class.
    A key demographic in Somerton and Frome, no doubt.

    (hell, it might be for all I know, although I picture it as a quintessential Toryish Shire)
    I wouldn't say that at all. There are pockets of big, big money and some very well off pensioners. But Somerton and Frome towns are slightly Green-y, not hugely rich market towns, there are a lot of traditional rural working class/laborers about etc. It isn't well enough located to be commuter-belt rich.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780
    surbiton said:

    nunu said:
    He's just following his leader's example.
    One thing puzzles me. Why do they need to say things like this ? There are plenty of candidates who do not live in the constituency but promise to do so if elected.
    And if a B&B can be the address, can they not use it and ask for the SONP to just say 'address in the x constituency'? What are the rules on not including the actual address, just stating it is in a particular constituency?
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited May 2017
    Bit surprised that the Tory lead with C2's is smaller than AB. Also guessing, the Tory vote is about 43%/44%
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    Sean_F said:

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    My guess is that, even though Hallam has quite Corbyn-friendly demographics, the Labour vote really did max out there in 2015. There surely will have been some people there in 2015 who would've voted LD anywhere else, but just voted Lab to try to get Clegg out. That surely will be lessened this time since, while the LDs are irrelevant, Clegg isn't really "toxic" anymore.
    Hallam really is super-rich, though. Not just super-rich compared to the rest of Sheffield, but rich like South West Surrey or Hertsmere. Clegg suits it far better than Corbyn.
    Yes, without having looked this up, I'd guess the constituency with the big student population is Sheffield Central rather than Sheffield Hallam.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780

    Sean_F said:

    WRT the ORB poll, the Conservatives are up 4% on the start of the campaign, Labour up 1%.

    For Labour to win 30% or so means very little if the Conservatives are close to 50%.


    Meanwhile...

    https://twitter.com/ElectionsEtc/status/863057807154831360
    Betters predicting worse for Labour than any polling model so far it seems
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,721
    isam said:

    isam said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    More People voted for UKIP in 2015 than LD and SNP combined

    UKIP will also lose more votes than LD and SNP combined.
    At the last GE it was considered ok for UKIP to be given less coverage than the Lib Dems because the calculation used past votes rather than current opinion. That was obviously ridiculous as any fool could see UKIP were going to out poll the Lib Dems, so it seems strange that the Lib Dems are given more prominence again having got less than 2/3 UKIP vote in 2015. It isn't as if they are nailed on to improve on their 2015 vote, or are particularly relevant
    They weren't given less prominence than the Lib Dems - both were classed as major parties, and received substantial coverage, debate slots and so on. For UKIP, their "major" status was based on recent elections and current polls; for the Lib Dems it was based on the fact they won around a quarter of the vote at the previous General Election and had a level of support likely to deliver Parliamentary seats again (which it did - fewer than they'd have liked but substantially more than UKIP).

    The rules have changed a bit since so you are required to give due prominence taking into account both measures of past and current support. UKIP can point to the last General Election in terms of past support - although it was one where they got a lot of votes but just one MP. In terms of present support, they have nothing to say. The last electoral test, the local elections, were an unmitigated disaster. Most people in the UK won't even have the opportunity to vote for a UKIP candidate in the unlikely event they wanted to. And it's a near certainty that they will have fewer MPs than the Greens in the next Parliament (i.e. nil).
    Yeah yeah whatever

    Didn't realise you were a teenager.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    FPT and for SouthamObserver:
    How do you feel about companies? Google, for instance, is notorious for not paying a huge amount in tax, and so by your definition not a wealth creator, but it has utterly transformed the average persons access to information. I often tell classes that the iPad they have on their desk gives them access in a much easier way to more information than I had available to me when I was at university with a copyright library across the road. Similarly Apple with iTunes U. Surely that is adding a huge amount of value?

    It is. And they are making huge profits as a result. I would argue that they should be paying a lot more tax as they benefit massively from the investments that governments make in a wide variety of areas - and, what's more - they need prosperous, information-hungry, service and product consuming users. They also owe a lot of their success to state-guaranteed intellectual property rights. If Google lost the exclusive use if its trademarks, patents and copyrights it would very quickly find itself in a whole heap of trouble.

    On the other hand, Google seem to have reduced their Corporation tax bill by paying their staff more, probably resulting in even more money going to the exchequer. On the subject of trademarks etc, surely even the most swivel-eyed libertarian would say that maintaining the rule of law is, after defence of the realm, the most important job of government.

    I'm going to stop here because I've realised that I've forgotten what it is we are supposed to be arguing about: I suspect that we agree on more than we differ.

    Ha, ha - I reckon you are probably right!

    One of the reasons I keep coming back here is reasonably civilised discussions. I even occasionally read points of view that make me think about my own prejudices. I don't change them, of course, but I do think about them.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    WRT the ORB poll, the Conservatives are up 4% on the start of the campaign, Labour up 1%.

    For Labour to win 30% or so means very little if the Conservatives are close to 50%.


    Meanwhile...

    https://twitter.com/ElectionsEtc/status/863057807154831360
    Betters predicting worse for Labour than any polling model so far it seems
    Remember the 'day that the polls turned' in 2015. I think Scrapheap still uses that headline as his avatar. Labour were on c. 37% then.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
    The thing is though that Sheffield Hallam doesn't actually have THAT many students - it's a "university seat" in the sense that lots of academics who work at Sheffield Uni live there.

    On the other hand, Leeds North West actually does have an incredibly high number of students, which is why I think that's a better chance of a Labour gain.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,255
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    WRT the ORB poll, the Conservatives are up 4% on the start of the campaign, Labour up 1%.

    For Labour to win 30% or so means very little if the Conservatives are close to 50%.


    Meanwhile...

    https://twitter.com/ElectionsEtc/status/863057807154831360
    Betters predicting worse for Labour than any polling model so far it seems
    Ahh! I need Tories 400+ to get a decent win.
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    Essexit said:

    kle4 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    I expect the Corbyn QT to cost Labour badly.

    One would hope. But he might pull his 'confused, gentle soul' thing, which works remarkably well. I hope he loses his cool - when he does, its quite something.
    One or two Falklands veterans or relatives of IRA victims in the audience should do the trick.
    More likely it will be full of doting Bunny La Roche types.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
    The thing is though that Sheffield Hallam doesn't actually have THAT many students - it's a "university seat" in the sense that lots of academics who work at Sheffield Uni live there.

    On the other hand, Leeds North West actually does have an incredibly high number of students, which is why I think that's a better chance of a Labour gain.
    Yes, one of the universities is located there: the one that isn't called Sheffield Hallam! As I said below Sheffield Central is the constituency with the biggest student population - hence, it being fertile ground for the greens.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    It might be that the student fees thing is being over done. Most current students were no older than 15 when they were increased to their current level and probably have no recollection of the arguments such as they were at the time.

    Young people are remarkably good at dealing with life as it is rather than how their elders think it should be. Certainly the level of fees is not an issue for my son and his friends (though they have things to say about value for money, but that is a different issue). I think TwistedFireStopper, gent of this parish, posted on here last month that he has two sons at Uni neither of whom are concerned about fees.

    I wonder if too much is being made about a subject by people who are not actually affected by it.
  • Options
    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
    The thing is though that Sheffield Hallam doesn't actually have THAT many students - it's a "university seat" in the sense that lots of academics who work at Sheffield Uni live there.

    On the other hand, Leeds North West actually does have an incredibly high number of students, which is why I think that's a better chance of a Labour gain.
    But surely the best chance of a Labour gain in Leeds was in 2015? Students may or may not STILL be angry about fees... but is there any real risk they will be MORE angry than in 2015?

    I know Corbynites would say Jezmania is sweeping the campuses... but I'm not sure the evidence on that is terribly compelling (esp post Brexit).
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    WRT the ORB poll, the Conservatives are up 4% on the start of the campaign, Labour up 1%.

    For Labour to win 30% or so means very little if the Conservatives are close to 50%.


    Meanwhile...

    https://twitter.com/ElectionsEtc/status/863057807154831360
    Betters predicting worse for Labour than any polling model so far it seems
    Remember the 'day that the polls turned' in 2015. I think Scrapheap still uses that headline as his avatar. Labour were on c. 37% then.
    A fair point. Although the polls never really stayed at that level, as I recall, whereas the circa 30s we've been seeing have been.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780

    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
    The thing is though that Sheffield Hallam doesn't actually have THAT many students - it's a "university seat" in the sense that lots of academics who work at Sheffield Uni live there.

    On the other hand, Leeds North West actually does have an incredibly high number of students, which is why I think that's a better chance of a Labour gain.
    But surely the best chance of a Labour gain in Leeds was in 2015? Students may or may not STILL be angry about fees... but is there any real risk they will be MORE angry than in 2015?

    I wouldn't have thought so, but then you'd assume any of 'The Survivors' of the LDs in 2015 would be safe now as that was surely their lowest ebb, and yet 3-4 are seen as being under serious threat (partly due to Brexit in fairness).
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780

    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    WRT the ORB poll, the Conservatives are up 4% on the start of the campaign, Labour up 1%.

    For Labour to win 30% or so means very little if the Conservatives are close to 50%.


    Meanwhile...

    https://twitter.com/ElectionsEtc/status/863057807154831360
    Betters predicting worse for Labour than any polling model so far it seems
    Ahh! I need Tories 400+ to get a decent win.
    I'm trying to stay clear of bets on overall seat numbers - lost money to JohnnyJimmy on that front last time. Tories below 300, what was I thinking?
  • Options
    ProdicusProdicus Posts: 658
    kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    WRT the ORB poll, the Conservatives are up 4% on the start of the campaign, Labour up 1%.

    For Labour to win 30% or so means very little if the Conservatives are close to 50%.


    Meanwhile...

    https://twitter.com/ElectionsEtc/status/863057807154831360
    Betters predicting worse for Labour than any polling model so far it seems
    Down to herding on PB.com?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,930

    isam said:

    isam said:

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    More People voted for UKIP in 2015 than LD and SNP combined

    UKIP will also lose more votes than LD and SNP combined.
    At the last GE it was considered ok for UKIP to be given less coverage than the Lib Dems because the calculation used past votes rather than current opinion. That was obviously ridiculous as any fool could see UKIP were going to out poll the Lib Dems, so it seems strange that the Lib Dems are given more prominence again having got less than 2/3 UKIP vote in 2015. It isn't as if they are nailed on to improve on their 2015 vote, or are particularly relevant
    They weren't given less prominence than the Lib Dems - both were classed as major parties, and received substantial coverage, debate slots and so on. For UKIP, their "major" status was based on recent elections and current polls; for the Lib Dems it was based on the fact they won around a quarter of the vote at the previous General Election and had a level of support likely to deliver Parliamentary seats again (which it did - fewer than they'd have liked but substantially more than UKIP).

    The rules have changed a bit since so you are required to give due prominence taking into account both measures of past and current support. UKIP can point to the last General Election in terms of past support - although it was one where they got a lot of votes but just one MP. In terms of present support, they have nothing to say. The last electoral test, the local elections, were an unmitigated disaster. Most people in the UK won't even have the opportunity to vote for a UKIP candidate in the unlikely event they wanted to. And it's a near certainty that they will have fewer MPs than the Greens in the next Parliament (i.e. nil).
    Yeah yeah whatever

    Didn't realise you were a teenager.
    When someone quotes a betting price, and your response is "Buying Opportunity", what do you mean by it?

    You said it doesn't mean you are recommending a bet...
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
    The thing is though that Sheffield Hallam doesn't actually have THAT many students - it's a "university seat" in the sense that lots of academics who work at Sheffield Uni live there.

    On the other hand, Leeds North West actually does have an incredibly high number of students, which is why I think that's a better chance of a Labour gain.
    But surely the best chance of a Labour gain in Leeds was in 2015? Students may or may not STILL be angry about fees... but is there any real risk they will be MORE angry than in 2015?

    I wouldn't have thought so, but then you'd assume any of 'The Survivors' of the LDs in 2015 would be safe now as that was surely their lowest ebb, and yet 3-4 are seen as being under serious threat (partly due to Brexit in fairness).
    In this particular case there seems to have been a lot of tactical voting by Conservatives in 2015, and this might not be the case this time round.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
    The thing is though that Sheffield Hallam doesn't actually have THAT many students - it's a "university seat" in the sense that lots of academics who work at Sheffield Uni live there.

    On the other hand, Leeds North West actually does have an incredibly high number of students, which is why I think that's a better chance of a Labour gain.
    But surely the best chance of a Labour gain in Leeds was in 2015? Students may or may not STILL be angry about fees... but is there any real risk they will be MORE angry than in 2015?

    I know Corbynites would say Jezmania is sweeping the campuses... but I'm not sure the evidence on that is terribly compelling (esp post Brexit).
    I don't think tuition fees will be a big deal for students this time, but also frankly I don't think Brexit will be that big a deal for students either: the people who are still wanting to reverse the referendum result tend to be slightly older "liberal intelligentsia" types, I think.

    There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that young people's voter registration is going through the roof this time. That isn't going to help Labour that much under FPTP since they already hold most seats with high concentrations of young people (outside of Scotland) anyway, but Leeds NW is one of the exceptions.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,780

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
    The thing is though that Sheffield Hallam doesn't actually have THAT many students - it's a "university seat" in the sense that lots of academics who work at Sheffield Uni live there.

    On the other hand, Leeds North West actually does have an incredibly high number of students, which is why I think that's a better chance of a Labour gain.
    But surely the best chance of a Labour gain in Leeds was in 2015? Students may or may not STILL be angry about fees... but is there any real risk they will be MORE angry than in 2015?

    I wouldn't have thought so, but then you'd assume any of 'The Survivors' of the LDs in 2015 would be safe now as that was surely their lowest ebb, and yet 3-4 are seen as being under serious threat (partly due to Brexit in fairness).
    In this particular case there seems to have been a lot of tactical voting by Conservatives in 2015, and this might not be the case this time round.
    Not sure Tories anywhere will be voting tactically this time - even in Scotland where it would be most beneficial to do so, optimism is so high (and an overall win expected), so stay at home even at the cost of Labour/SNP getting in this time.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
    The thing is though that Sheffield Hallam doesn't actually have THAT many students - it's a "university seat" in the sense that lots of academics who work at Sheffield Uni live there.

    On the other hand, Leeds North West actually does have an incredibly high number of students, which is why I think that's a better chance of a Labour gain.
    I think, Mr. 565, that many of those students in Leeds NW will actually have buggered off home by 8th June. So I am not sure, that even if they are registered, which most will not be, how many will be there to vote. Probably not enough to make a difference one way or the other.
  • Options
    TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,662
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
    The thing is though that Sheffield Hallam doesn't actually have THAT many students - it's a "university seat" in the sense that lots of academics who work at Sheffield Uni live there.

    On the other hand, Leeds North West actually does have an incredibly high number of students, which is why I think that's a better chance of a Labour gain.
    But surely the best chance of a Labour gain in Leeds was in 2015? Students may or may not STILL be angry about fees... but is there any real risk they will be MORE angry than in 2015?

    I know Corbynites would say Jezmania is sweeping the campuses... but I'm not sure the evidence on that is terribly compelling (esp post Brexit).
    I don't think tuition fees will be a big deal for students this time, but also frankly I don't think Brexit will be that big a deal for students either: the people who are still wanting to reverse the referendum result tend to be slightly older "liberal intelligentsia" types, I think.

    There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that young people's voter registration is going through the roof this time. That isn't going to help Labour that much under FPTP since they already hold most seats with high concentrations of young people (outside of Scotland) anyway, but Leeds NW is one of the exceptions.
    Students may not be voting in their university constituency this time. At my university half the students will have already completed their exams and gone home/travelling. Sheffield Hallam univerisiy' s end of term is next weekend!
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    edited May 2017
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    kle4 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Worth saying that the ORB poll has a small LD->Lab swing from 2015.

    Pile on Lab Gain Leeds North West.

    I'm on Labour to beat Clegg at 30-1. I think I'll let that stand.
    It is a University seat, Clegg’s Euro-philia will surely help.

    I think he’ll hold easily.
    I thought tuition fee traitor Clegg was despised by students.
    They say students are getting over that because of Brexit, and I'm told he is actually reasonably popular in the seat, but frankly I have my doubts, I think he is in real trouble once again, and he may hold, but it'll be tight again - Labour almost snatched it last time, students apparently like Corbyn, and the Tories won't help Clegg this time.
    The thing is though that Sheffield Hallam doesn't actually have THAT many students - it's a "university seat" in the sense that lots of academics who work at Sheffield Uni live there.

    On the other hand, Leeds North West actually does have an incredibly high number of students, which is why I think that's a better chance of a Labour gain.
    But surely the best chance of a Labour gain in Leeds was in 2015? Students may or may not STILL be angry about fees... but is there any real risk they will be MORE angry than in 2015?

    I know Corbynites would say Jezmania is sweeping the campuses... but I'm not sure the evidence on that is terribly compelling (esp post Brexit).
    I don't think tuition fees will be a big deal for students this time, but also frankly I don't think Brexit will be that big a deal for students either: the people who are still wanting to reverse the referendum result tend to be slightly older "liberal intelligentsia" types, I think.

    There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that young people's voter registration is going through the roof this time. That isn't going to help Labour that much under FPTP since they already hold most seats with high concentrations of young people (outside of Scotland) anyway, but Leeds NW is one of the exceptions.
    I really hope that is true. Young people need to vote. And I certainly wouldn't assume that increased turnout among the young would necessarily benefit Corbyn.
This discussion has been closed.