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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The 2017 LAB leadership contest starts on June 9th whether Cor

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  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited May 2017
    Scott_P said:

    @RobWilson_RDG: Quote of the day: "While Labour’s manifesto is 100% Jeremy Corbyn, the costings in it are 100% Diane Abbott."

    Think they could have used a diff (higher) % for Abbott for more comic effect, e.g. "the costings in it are 197% Diane Abbott."
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Roger said:

    GeoffM said:

    Roger said:

    I'd like to see Chuka Ummuna challenge. He's got a very cool manner which would be a better contrast with May than Cooper.

    I'd like to see him challenge too. There are obviously some skeletons in his closet so it'll be fun to see if they destroy him or if society has moved on enough.
    If he's gay that'll be a nice contrast with Theresa.
    And a bit of a shock to his wife:

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-couldnt-be-happier-as-he-reveals-his-wife-is-pregnant-with-first-child-a3410591.html
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    On topic, why should someone who wasn't good enough 2 years ago now become a shoo-in for the leadership?

    Off topic, if we had a traffic-light coalition, would Amber Rudd be PM?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    PBer reports from the doorstep:

    https://twitter.com/Aaron4DonValley/status/863277691667132416

    Telling choice of avatar.

    I did wonder how many Labour MPs will be mentioning Corbyn - the answer is not even Diane

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4501456/amp/Even-Corbyn-s-ex-lover-Diane-Abbott-airbrushing-out.html
    Are Conservatives going the other way? Early reports suggest they are headlining Theresa May but not mentioning the party.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    But I am not kidding about Jess Phillips either. She is a fighter, and an outspoken street fighter at that, one who loathes Jezza but is hardly the polished Blairite. She could purge Momentum and tear lumps out of May in Parliament. She is quite close to HH so may well get the support of the sisterhood. Her book is well worth reading. I think she will keep her seat.

    I'm afraid I don't, which is why I have ruled her out as the next leader.
    Really? The Lib Dems are going nowhere and the Tories are surely far too far back even with a significant UKIP bounce. She looks pretty safe to me.
    I think the West Midlands will be horrendous for Labour with unexpectedly high swings and some very high profile casualties including but not limited to Phillips. For example, Tom Watson is at real risk as well.
    I agree the West Midlands will be bad for Labour but she is well placed because the threat is the Lib Dems, not the Tories. If the Lib Dems go up more than 5% I will be surprised and I wouldn't even rule out Hemmings slipping backwards without incumbency. I would expect the Tories to pick up more than half the UKIP vote from the last time but that is nowhere near enough. Her vote may well be down but I don't see anyone beating her.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    ... which started in America.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    felix said:

    As I recall Cooper is the one who emote about child refugees and asked one pithy question at PMQs. Her ministerial record was very poor. If she is the answer the party is in a bad way. Those thousands of left wing members will all still be there.

    Jon Ashworth still available at 80, I see...

    But if looking for a woman who can do a Kinnock on Militant, look no furtber than Jess Phillips.
    A very interesting candidate, who outperforms the Labour average in recruiting voters in her Birmingham seat. The kind of seat Labour needs to win. Ambitious too, as evidenced by her "Westminster is worth a Brexit" decision.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Are you sure she had bookings? She seems quite busy at the moment and more into hillwalking than interrailing.

    I don't see increased security threats being bad for the Tories, quite the opposite in fact. It brings home that Corbyn is deluded about his "friends" and not to be trusted on security matters.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    What has happened to Dan Jarvis as next leader? At this point I would say all Labour candidates seem to start on a pretty blank slate as far as ministerial achievements go. So Jarvis at least has a good background - you could hardly accuse him of not being a patriot. I think he's so far come across as a little dull, which may not contrast enough with May, but I think he is by far the best fresh start for Labour to rebuild themselves as a national party of government.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    edited May 2017

    Kippers in kilts update.

    Some nascent signs that the media worm is turning with regard to Ruthy.

    https://twitter.com/markmcdsnp/status/863183636262264836

    Of course it's no revelation that the SCons are happy to soak up the racist bigot vote, but they've become too complacent about doing it openly. Douce Unionist folk don't want to open their breakfast newspaper to news of councillors' manhoods or loonballs calling for politicians to be taken out.

    I think the people of the North East will be with dissident Skipper Buchan. Is it now illegal to criticize the partitionist occupation ?
    Retired skipper.
    Now he just spends his days posting on FB about the gays, dem Muslamics and asking people to take out Sturgeon.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Labour are trying to weaponise the NHS again

    https://twitter.com/jonashworth/status/863296588973830144

    Where I think they might get some traction is the £350m a week for the NHS "Brexit dividend"

    How can Brexiteers avoid committing to spend that on NHS IT?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    DavidL said:

    Are you sure she had bookings? She seems quite busy at the moment and more into hillwalking than interrailing.

    I don't see increased security threats being bad for the Tories, quite the opposite in fact. It brings home that Corbyn is deluded about his "friends" and not to be trusted on security matters.
    Quite. Last night some were positing 10-20 seat loss minimum.....
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    On topic, I agree with pretty much all that Mike's written, except that I'm not convinced that if push came to shove, Corbyn wouldn't stand down. He clearly doesn't like many aspects of the job and must know that he's woefully out of his depth, and that only loyalty to his supporters and his cause is sustaining him. If it became apparent that he couldn't win a third contest, why try?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    DavidL said:

    Are you sure she had bookings? She seems quite busy at the moment and more into hillwalking than interrailing.

    I don't see increased security threats being bad for the Tories, quite the opposite in fact. It brings home that Corbyn is deluded about his "friends" and not to be trusted on security matters.
    We'll see. It might be irrelevant, or perhaps cause voters to ask if government proposals to weaken computer security are a good (easier to catch the bad guys) or a bad thing (easier to fall victim to hackers exploiting official government holes).
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,282

    ydoethur said:

    Just to add, I remember how traumatic the 1992 defeat was the for the party - and this coming one will be far worse. It was the memory of the defeat two years earlier that meant that Blair was able to win the 1994 leadership election so easily.

    Why? Surely the big problem in 1992 was that as in 1970 (and indeed 2015) Labour didn't see it coming. They were convinced they were going to win or at least force a hung parliament (one of the more amusing moments of the 1992 election coverage is Gordon Brown saying that because the Tories had lost their overall majority they should resign immediately and let Labour take power even if Labour were second overall). They just had no idea of how unpopular they still were.

    This time even the most stupid Corbynista must know they are in for the worst beating since Margaret d'Anjou turned her exhausted and outnumbered forces to face the rampaging Edward IV at Tewkesbury in 1471. They cannot believe that the apologist for terrorism is popular unless they are suffering from serious sight and hearing impediments.

    Of course, the revelation that everyone can see how loathsome they are will be a trauma for people who genuinely believe they are decent, always right and normal. Whether it will jerk them to reality is a different question. But a trauma like 1992? Can't see it.
    Re. your penultimate paragraph, self-awareness does not strike me as one of the most prominent qualities of the average Corbynista. 9 June will be the day everyone in the Party needs to wake up to reality.
    The problem among many is not that they are unaware Labour's in for a beating, but they have their explanations and excuses ready. You've got the denialists who'll blame the 'MSM' or PLP who simply cannot believe people cannot see the evident truths of their revelation, but you've also got a more rational form of denial that won't go away with defeat. It's exemplified by some of the leftwing columnists who delighted at the manifesto - they'll argue that one more heave is necessary, that Brexit was unique to 2017 and helped the Tories, that the manifesto was the right message, wrong messenger, that someone like Clive Lewis could've won and that they'll eventually find the key that opens the door. But it neglects the fact that you can have too much of a good thing and that voters will stop believing you. You need to show restraint and prioritise as voters understand that extra billions spent on the NHS can't go somewhere else deserving.

    That's the danger for Labour, that Corbyn the man gets blamed for being a well meaning incompetent and the deep assumptions and attitudes and the real problems with them that helped fuel his rise aren't challenged.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    KiltedKippers Update. Another flagship SNP fuckup

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/863299289480658944
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,760
    edited May 2017
    Shock Tory win from fourth is possible in Yardley. They look set to run Watson close in WBE as well. Remember, both these candidates masked major loss of core vote support to UKIP by picking up Liberal Democrat support. That could fade easily over the Brexit vote. But more pertinently, there seems to be unusually high direct switching in the West Midlands, which is why shocks appear possible.

    I have to go. Have a good weekend everyone.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,772
    ydoethur said:

    But I am not kidding about Jess Phillips either. She is a fighter, and an outspoken street fighter at that, one who loathes Jezza but is hardly the polished Blairite. She could purge Momentum and tear lumps out of May in Parliament. She is quite close to HH so may well get the support of the sisterhood. Her book is well worth reading. I think she will keep her seat.

    I'm afraid I don't, which is why I have ruled her out as the next leader.
    She leads the Lib Dems 41/25%, with the Conservatives third. I can't see the Lib Dems or Conservatives pulling off the necessary swing.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Its clear that the leader of a party is entirely linked with its success. I grew tired of people on here saying UKIP wouldn't grow until Farage stood aside, how wrong they were. Like him or not Blair was popular and successful, May appeals to parts of the electorate that Cameron alienated.

    Looking at the Labour list there is nobody remotely capable of leading the party to a majority
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Kippers in kilts update.

    Some nascent signs that the media worm is turning with regard to Ruthy.

    https://twitter.com/markmcdsnp/status/863183636262264836

    Of course it's no revelation that the SCons are happy to soak up the racist bigot vote, but they've become too complacent about doing it openly. Douce Unionist folk don't want to open their breakfast newspaper to news of councillors' manhoods or loonballs calling for politicians to be taken out.

    I think the people of the North East will be with dissident Skipper Buchan. Is it now illegal to criticize the partitionist occupation ?
    Retired skipper.
    Now he just spends his days posting on FB about the gays, dem Muslamics and asking people to take out Sturgeon.
    Skipper Buchan is entitled to his opinions as is Sturgeon. It would be unwise to persecute him and turn him into a popular hero.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Kippers in kilts update.

    Some nascent signs that the media worm is turning with regard to Ruthy.

    https://twitter.com/markmcdsnp/status/863183636262264836

    Of course it's no revelation that the SCons are happy to soak up the racist bigot vote, but they've become too complacent about doing it openly. Douce Unionist folk don't want to open their breakfast newspaper to news of councillors' manhoods or loonballs calling for politicians to be taken out.

    I think the people of the North East will be with dissident Skipper Buchan. Is it now illegal to criticize the partitionist occupation ?
    Retired skipper.
    Now he just spends his days posting on FB about the gays, dem Muslamics and asking people to take out Sturgeon.
    So a real Glaswegian
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,282
    Scott_P said:

    Labour are trying to weaponise the NHS again

    https://twitter.com/jonashworth/status/863296588973830144

    Where I think they might get some traction is the £350m a week for the NHS "Brexit dividend"

    How can Brexiteers avoid committing to spend that on NHS IT?

    It's hardly unfair - we've just seen a large scale cyber attack that if reports are to be believed exploited a vulnerability in outdated Microsoft software that couldn't be patched. The opposition should be taking the government to task. It's not like this attack has come out of the blue - tech experts have written articles outlining similar scenarios for almost a decade.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,772
    ydoethur said:

    Shock Tory win from fourth is possible in Yardley. They look set to run Watson close in WBE as well. Remember, both these candidates masked major loss of core vote support to UKIP by picking up Liberal Democrat support. That could fade easily over the Brexit vote. But more pertinently, there seems to be unusually high direct switching in the West Midlands, which is why shocks appear possible.

    I have to go. Have a good weekend everyone.

    I think the Tories will win a string of seats in the West Midlands, but they're too far back here.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    MJW

    I agree that those arguments will be aired, but they will be trumped by the reality of the fact that the Tories won by a landslide, and Corbyn will own that defeat.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Scott_P said:

    KiltedKippers Update. Another flagship SNP fuckup

    https://twitter.com/paulhutcheon/status/863299289480658944

    But, but, but! A retired fisherman was photographed next to Ruthie! Quick! Change the subject!

    MPs under Police Investigation
    Oil revenues
    Education outcomes

    Feck it FLAGS!!!!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    GeoffM said:

    Roger said:

    I'd like to see Chuka Ummuna challenge. He's got a very cool manner which would be a better contrast with May than Cooper.

    I'd like to see him challenge too. There are obviously some skeletons in his closet so it'll be fun to see if they destroy him or if society has moved on enough.
    If he's gay that'll be a nice contrast with Theresa.
    And a bit of a shock to his wife:

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-couldnt-be-happier-as-he-reveals-his-wife-is-pregnant-with-first-child-a3410591.html
    Well exactly but what other skeletons could Geoff be talking about?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Scott_P said:

    Labour are trying to weaponise the NHS again

    https://twitter.com/jonashworth/status/863296588973830144

    Where I think they might get some traction is the £350m a week for the NHS "Brexit dividend"

    How can Brexiteers avoid committing to spend that on NHS IT?

    NHS administration is stuck in the 20th century.

    A bold government might just have the courage to take the administration away from the NHS and give the pen pushing and IT to organisations that will invest heavily in much better equipment and processes but with considerably fewer employees with lower staff and pension costs.

    I also see examples of NHS 'organisation' where I live that would not last five minutes in any sensible company.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. MJW, from a purely neutral perspective, it'll be interesting to see how it plays with the public.

    It might just entrench opinions: We need more spending/why did NHS trusts spend so much on diversity officers rather than IT?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    On topic, why should someone who wasn't good enough 2 years ago now become a shoo-in for the leadership?

    Off topic, if we had a traffic-light coalition, would Amber Rudd be PM?

    Could be Red Ken or a Green?
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Can the Labour PLP make someone leader without a membership vote? Is it only the case when there's one candidate?

    Apologies if this has been answered already.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    Are you sure she had bookings? She seems quite busy at the moment and more into hillwalking than interrailing.

    I don't see increased security threats being bad for the Tories, quite the opposite in fact. It brings home that Corbyn is deluded about his "friends" and not to be trusted on security matters.
    We'll see. It might be irrelevant, or perhaps cause voters to ask if government proposals to weaken computer security are a good (easier to catch the bad guys) or a bad thing (easier to fall victim to hackers exploiting official government holes).
    If it had just been the NHS it might have been more of an issue. But this attack has hit systems world wide. There is an argument that head counting doctors and nurses in the NHS has resulted in other equally important aspects of the service being neglected including its software. But who is going to argue that too much money was spent on doctors?
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    FF43 said:

    A very interesting candidate, who outperforms the Labour average in recruiting voters in her Birmingham seat. The kind of seat Labour needs to win. Ambitious too, as evidenced by her "Westminster is worth a Brexit" decision.

    Phillips would be outstanding. But a Labour party that would elect Phillips as leader would have voted for Stella Creasy as deputy leader. They didn't - they chose that old bruiser Watson instead - and since then the Labour electorate has gravitated still further towards Momentum.

    I'm increasingly of the opinion that the most likely way out of this will be SDP2. Corbyn is immovable.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    ydoethur said:



    4) I agree with the good Dr @foxinsoxuk that Ashworth is the one to watch even at that price. He's loyal, acceptable to the left, doesn't raise antipathy on the right and the only major spokesman not to have made a total dog's dinner of his brief so far.

    Ashworth has several points in his favour:

    1) He is competent, and a consensus builder. A Brownite historically, but one of the few willing to work in the Shadow Cabinet. He knows the NEC, the rulebook, and unions well, so would have internal support for some of the internal party tasks. He wasn't in the last Labour government so is a clean skin.

    2) He has a safe seat, and while a white male again, is at least a working class northern one. His backstory is interesting, and his campaigning for families of alcoholics shows him to be more than the party apparatchik parachuted into a safe seat that I had him down as.

    But I am not kidding about Jess Phillips either. She is a fighter, and an outspoken street fighter at that, one who loathes Jezza but is hardly the polished Blairite. She could purge Momentum and tear lumps out of May in Parliament. She is quite close to HH so may well get the support of the sisterhood. Her book is well worth reading. I think she will keep her seat.
    Do you really think Labour will choose an unapologetic misandrist as leader?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    On topic, I agree with pretty much all that Mike's written, except that I'm not convinced that if push came to shove, Corbyn wouldn't stand down. He clearly doesn't like many aspects of the job and must know that he's woefully out of his depth, and that only loyalty to his supporters and his cause is sustaining him. If it became apparent that he couldn't win a third contest, why try?

    You assume a clarity of vision on Corbyn's part when examining himself, which he doesn't have when examining anything else. Point two, the central metaphor of everything he has ever done is the fight: though cowards flinch and traitors sneer and so on, and a large proportion of his followers will revile him for ever as a sellout capitalist running-dog lackey if he tries to make an orderly exit. He has a huge dilemma in front of him.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    But I am not kidding about Jess Phillips either. She is a fighter, and an outspoken street fighter at that, one who loathes Jezza but is hardly the polished Blairite. She could purge Momentum and tear lumps out of May in Parliament. She is quite close to HH so may well get the support of the sisterhood. Her book is well worth reading. I think she will keep her seat.

    I'm afraid I don't, which is why I have ruled her out as the next leader.
    Really? The Lib Dems are going nowhere and the Tories are surely far too far back even with a significant UKIP bounce. She looks pretty safe to me.
    I think the West Midlands will be horrendous for Labour with unexpectedly high swings and some very high profile casualties including but not limited to Phillips. For example, Tom Watson is at real risk as well.
    I agree the West Midlands will be bad for Labour but she is well placed because the threat is the Lib Dems, not the Tories. If the Lib Dems go up more than 5% I will be surprised and I wouldn't even rule out Hemmings slipping backwards without incumbency. I would expect the Tories to pick up more than half the UKIP vote from the last time but that is nowhere near enough. Her vote may well be down but I don't see anyone beating her.
    Yardley could be a close three-way contest. I wouldn't put too much stock in UNS given the Lib Dem factor and for the Tories to win from fourth would be a massive achievement. That said, there's a big Ukip share to squeeze and a 14% swing isn't completely unrealistic.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    If Labour was to ignore its grassroots and give it to Yvette, what then? Does the Party disintegrate? I'm not convinced the Corbynites will take their bat and ball home with them. I suspect the threat of deselections and more. It would be civil war. Not least with a leader who lost last time. Fair play to her if Cooper is prepared to have a go but it would be no picnic. And what will she stand for? A slightly nicer version of the Tories? Don't think that will cut it. Judging by my Facebook timeline the Corbynites are not going to go quietly......

    Many of them do feel we're heading for a Tory landslide but they're utterly bewildered by it. How can people prefer 'nasty' Theresa May with her plan to destroy the NHS, bring back Fox Hunting and decry citizens of the world when Jeremy so obviously cares about everyone and has outlined plans to give everyone a better deal?

    And is Bush being a little mischievous with the last line? Reminding us that last time Labour went with a coronation it was Gordon Brown. Cooper used to be called a Brownite of course as well.
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    Assuming Corbyn refused to go after June 8th, all the sensible Labour mps have to quickly for their own breakaway group.

    For a start, the all know another 5 years like the last 2 is a living nightmare.

    But with an instant breakaway they will be large enough a group to become the official opposition.

    By doing this they get the Short money, LOTO and shadow chancellor salaries and positions on the important commons committees. More importantly the loony left don't get them.

    Say Labour get 150 seats. Out of that there will be c30 or so Corbynites but 120 who need to do something.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Mr. MJW, from a purely neutral perspective, it'll be interesting to see how it plays with the public.

    It might just entrench opinions: We need more spending/why did NHS trusts spend so much on diversity officers rather than IT?

    It appears that NHS Wales is unaffected. Did they do their updates more carefully, or use non-Micro$oft systems?Or was it just luck?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Voter, according to the news last night, they use a different system.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    saddo said:

    Assuming Corbyn refused to go after June 8th, all the sensible Labour mps have to quickly for their own breakaway group.

    For a start, the all know another 5 years like the last 2 is a living nightmare.

    But with an instant breakaway they will be large enough a group to become the official opposition.

    By doing this they get the Short money, LOTO and shadow chancellor salaries and positions on the important commons committees. More importantly the loony left don't get them.

    Say Labour get 150 seats. Out of that there will be c30 or so Corbynites but 120 who need to do something.

    To break away immediately AFTER an election? That would be tricky. They've stood on the manifesto.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,772

    ydoethur said:



    4) I agree with the good Dr @foxinsoxuk that Ashworth is the one to watch even at that price. He's loyal, acceptable to the left, doesn't raise antipathy on the right and the only major spokesman not to have made a total dog's dinner of his brief so far.

    Ashworth has several points in his favour:

    1) He is competent, and a consensus builder. A Brownite historically, but one of the few willing to work in the Shadow Cabinet. He knows the NEC, the rulebook, and unions well, so would have internal support for some of the internal party tasks. He wasn't in the last Labour government so is a clean skin.

    2) He has a safe seat, and while a white male again, is at least a working class northern one. His backstory is interesting, and his campaigning for families of alcoholics shows him to be more than the party apparatchik parachuted into a safe seat that I had him down as.

    But I am not kidding about Jess Phillips either. She is a fighter, and an outspoken street fighter at that, one who loathes Jezza but is hardly the polished Blairite. She could purge Momentum and tear lumps out of May in Parliament. She is quite close to HH so may well get the support of the sisterhood. Her book is well worth reading. I think she will keep her seat.
    Do you really think Labour will choose an unapologetic misandrist as leader?
    Jess Phillips speaks for a lot of left wing women.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    matt said:

    I'd don't think that she'd be a bad opposition leader although her record as a minister is mixed and perhaps looks adequate only in the rear view mirror.

    However, I'd point to the phrase, "growing consensus" in the article. Perhaps this time it's different but I've always taken that to mean no consensus other than in the mind of the person which hopes to be the beneficiary of such consensus.

    She is total and utter crap, as said before if she is the answer then labour is dead.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Ishmael_Z said:

    On topic, I agree with pretty much all that Mike's written, except that I'm not convinced that if push came to shove, Corbyn wouldn't stand down. He clearly doesn't like many aspects of the job and must know that he's woefully out of his depth, and that only loyalty to his supporters and his cause is sustaining him. If it became apparent that he couldn't win a third contest, why try?

    You assume a clarity of vision on Corbyn's part when examining himself, which he doesn't have when examining anything else. Point two, the central metaphor of everything he has ever done is the fight: though cowards flinch and traitors sneer and so on, and a large proportion of his followers will revile him for ever as a sellout capitalist running-dog lackey if he tries to make an orderly exit. He has a huge dilemma in front of him.
    It's more his friends I expect clarity of vision from. And on the 'sellout' question, I'm sure he'd phrase it as passing on the torch.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    Yvette Cooper would be great news for the tories, she is insipid and bland. Its irrelevant who the leader is, the whole brand is tarnished.

    And you can add to that a wooden and patronising manner.

    None of which seems to have done May any harm.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    Kippers in kilts update.

    Some nascent signs that the media worm is turning with regard to Ruthy.

    https://twitter.com/markmcdsnp/status/863183636262264836

    Of course it's no revelation that the SCons are happy to soak up the racist bigot vote, but they've become too complacent about doing it openly. Douce Unionist folk don't want to open their breakfast newspaper to news of councillors' manhoods or loonballs calling for politicians to be taken out.

    I think the people of the North East will be with dissident Skipper Buchan. Is it now illegal to criticize the partitionist occupation ?
    Dear Dear Tories now supporting nutjobs who advocate killing the FM and think it is acceptable. Is your moustache itchy Monica.
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185

    Mr. MJW, from a purely neutral perspective, it'll be interesting to see how it plays with the public.

    It might just entrench opinions: We need more spending/why did NHS trusts spend so much on diversity officers rather than IT?

    It appears that NHS Wales is unaffected. Did they do their updates more carefully, or use non-Micro$oft systems?Or was it just luck?
    Or they still do so much with paper no one has noticed the computers are not working yet....
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    malcolmg said:

    matt said:

    I'd don't think that she'd be a bad opposition leader although her record as a minister is mixed and perhaps looks adequate only in the rear view mirror.

    However, I'd point to the phrase, "growing consensus" in the article. Perhaps this time it's different but I've always taken that to mean no consensus other than in the mind of the person which hopes to be the beneficiary of such consensus.

    She is total and utter crap, as said before if she is the answer then labour is dead.
    That was ( is ) your opinion of Ruth Davidson. So we can say your opinion is worthless.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited May 2017
    Chuka Can...

    ...appeal to the centre ground.

    The next govt will surely be one for the Remoaners, and as such the next successful Labour will need the backing of the Cameroons and Blairites
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    saddo said:

    Assuming Corbyn refused to go after June 8th, all the sensible Labour mps have to quickly for their own breakaway group.

    For a start, the all know another 5 years like the last 2 is a living nightmare.

    But with an instant breakaway they will be large enough a group to become the official opposition.

    By doing this they get the Short money, LOTO and shadow chancellor salaries and positions on the important commons committees. More importantly the loony left don't get them.

    Say Labour get 150 seats. Out of that there will be c30 or so Corbynites but 120 who need to do something.

    It would also shut down the SNP in the HOC
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    saddo said:

    Assuming Corbyn refused to go after June 8th, all the sensible Labour mps have to quickly for their own breakaway group.

    For a start, the all know another 5 years like the last 2 is a living nightmare.

    But with an instant breakaway they will be large enough a group to become the official opposition.

    By doing this they get the Short money, LOTO and shadow chancellor salaries and positions on the important commons committees. More importantly the loony left don't get them.

    Say Labour get 150 seats. Out of that there will be c30 or so Corbynites but 120 who need to do something.

    To break away immediately AFTER an election? That would be tricky. They've stood on the manifesto.
    There are some MPs writing their own manifesto
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Are you sure she had bookings? She seems quite busy at the moment and more into hillwalking than interrailing.

    I don't see increased security threats being bad for the Tories, quite the opposite in fact. It brings home that Corbyn is deluded about his "friends" and not to be trusted on security matters.
    We'll see. It might be irrelevant, or perhaps cause voters to ask if government proposals to weaken computer security are a good (easier to catch the bad guys) or a bad thing (easier to fall victim to hackers exploiting official government holes).
    If it had just been the NHS it might have been more of an issue. But this attack has hit systems world wide. There is an argument that head counting doctors and nurses in the NHS has resulted in other equally important aspects of the service being neglected including its software. But who is going to argue that too much money was spent on doctors?
    As I have pointed out before, the recruitment and retention problems in staffing are getting worse, with record numbers of GP vacancies:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patients-wait-longer-as-gp-jobs-lie-vacant-cw88dshc7?shareToken=74a63508f3ea258d07901827bc4c5440

    Hospital specialities too:

    https://twitter.com/DrGrumble/status/862919041001938945

    I reckon this to be a bigger problem than funding.


  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Mr. MJW, from a purely neutral perspective, it'll be interesting to see how it plays with the public.

    It might just entrench opinions: We need more spending/why did NHS trusts spend so much on diversity officers rather than IT?

    It appears that NHS Wales is unaffected. Did they do their updates more carefully, or use non-Micro$oft systems?Or was it just luck?
    Labour run NHS in Wales asked Dianne Abbott to encrypt their IT and it has so baffled the hackers they have paid her £400bn in ransom. Ms Abbott has allocated these funds to pay for as many as six new Met Police officers.

    Bargain .....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,772
    isam said:

    Chuka Can...

    ...appeal to the centre ground.

    The next govt will surely be one for the Remoaners, and as such the next successful Labour will need the backing of the Cameroons and Blairites

    Maybe George Osborne is a future Labour leader?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    Omnium said:

    Benn would be the best replacement. However Labour are going to lose this election in part because of the one issue that they completely fail to address - economic competence, and Benn doesn't help much there in my view. So whoever they choose trying to find someone to work alongside the new leader that can introduce policies that are not just trying to identify deserving causes to raid the magic money tree for is of primary importance. (I'm not sure they have such people, but they should try to find them)

    Benn is a cowardly lightweight
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited May 2017
    Sean_F said:

    isam said:

    Chuka Can...

    ...appeal to the centre ground.

    The next govt will surely be one for the Remoaners, and as such the next successful Labour will need the backing of the Cameroons and Blairites

    Maybe George Osborne is a future Labour leader?
    Someone that Osborne and his followers approve of should be I think, if they are to be successful.

    The Cameroons and Blairites were never really Tories or Labour, they have much more in common with each other... at the moment they are homeless w May and Corbyn in charge

    I reckon if Chuka was a Lib Dem, or rather was standing as a Lib Dem, he would be leader and they'd be getting 2010 levels of seats
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    On topic, I agree with pretty much all that Mike's written, except that I'm not convinced that if push came to shove, Corbyn wouldn't stand down. He clearly doesn't like many aspects of the job and must know that he's woefully out of his depth, and that only loyalty to his supporters and his cause is sustaining him. If it became apparent that he couldn't win a third contest, why try?

    You assume a clarity of vision on Corbyn's part when examining himself, which he doesn't have when examining anything else. Point two, the central metaphor of everything he has ever done is the fight: though cowards flinch and traitors sneer and so on, and a large proportion of his followers will revile him for ever as a sellout capitalist running-dog lackey if he tries to make an orderly exit. He has a huge dilemma in front of him.
    It's more his friends I expect clarity of vision from. And on the 'sellout' question, I'm sure he'd phrase it as passing on the torch.
    That's some expectation, when "his friends" is Seumas Milne. But yes, the torch passing metaphor might have legs.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,772

    Ishmael_Z said:

    On topic, I agree with pretty much all that Mike's written, except that I'm not convinced that if push came to shove, Corbyn wouldn't stand down. He clearly doesn't like many aspects of the job and must know that he's woefully out of his depth, and that only loyalty to his supporters and his cause is sustaining him. If it became apparent that he couldn't win a third contest, why try?

    You assume a clarity of vision on Corbyn's part when examining himself, which he doesn't have when examining anything else. Point two, the central metaphor of everything he has ever done is the fight: though cowards flinch and traitors sneer and so on, and a large proportion of his followers will revile him for ever as a sellout capitalist running-dog lackey if he tries to make an orderly exit. He has a huge dilemma in front of him.
    It's more his friends I expect clarity of vision from. And on the 'sellout' question, I'm sure he'd phrase it as passing on the torch.
    If Labour lose heavily, won't their members just conclude they weren't left wing enough, that Corbyn was forced to make too many compromises with his opponents?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674

    malcolmg said:

    matt said:

    I'd don't think that she'd be a bad opposition leader although her record as a minister is mixed and perhaps looks adequate only in the rear view mirror.

    However, I'd point to the phrase, "growing consensus" in the article. Perhaps this time it's different but I've always taken that to mean no consensus other than in the mind of the person which hopes to be the beneficiary of such consensus.

    She is total and utter crap, as said before if she is the answer then labour is dead.
    That was ( is ) your opinion of Ruth Davidson. So we can say your opinion is worthless.
    LOL, only morons think Ruth is anything other than a great empty barrel. She will run out of animals to pose on for the tame right wing media. Southern Tories are easy pleased.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,674
    JackW said:

    Mr. MJW, from a purely neutral perspective, it'll be interesting to see how it plays with the public.

    It might just entrench opinions: We need more spending/why did NHS trusts spend so much on diversity officers rather than IT?

    It appears that NHS Wales is unaffected. Did they do their updates more carefully, or use non-Micro$oft systems?Or was it just luck?
    Labour run NHS in Wales asked Dianne Abbott to encrypt their IT and it has so baffled the hackers they have paid her £400bn in ransom. Ms Abbott has allocated these funds to pay for as many as six new Met Police officers.

    Bargain .....
    :):)
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Mr. MJW, from a purely neutral perspective, it'll be interesting to see how it plays with the public.

    It might just entrench opinions: We need more spending/why did NHS trusts spend so much on diversity officers rather than IT?

    It appears that NHS Wales is unaffected. Did they do their updates more carefully, or use non-Micro$oft systems?Or was it just luck?
    All the passwords are written in Welsh, no international hacking force can get through that kind of firewall.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Owl, weren't Welshmen used to man telephones in WWII, because the Germans couldn't understand a word of what they were saying?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,772
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    matt said:

    I'd don't think that she'd be a bad opposition leader although her record as a minister is mixed and perhaps looks adequate only in the rear view mirror.

    However, I'd point to the phrase, "growing consensus" in the article. Perhaps this time it's different but I've always taken that to mean no consensus other than in the mind of the person which hopes to be the beneficiary of such consensus.

    She is total and utter crap, as said before if she is the answer then labour is dead.
    That was ( is ) your opinion of Ruth Davidson. So we can say your opinion is worthless.
    LOL, only morons think Ruth is anything other than a great empty barrel. She will run out of animals to pose on for the tame right wing media. Southern Tories are easy pleased.
    Increasing numbers of Scots think that Ruth is great.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Mr. Owl, weren't Welshmen used to man telephones in WWII, because the Germans couldn't understand a word of what they were saying?

    little has changed...
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    matt said:

    I'd don't think that she'd be a bad opposition leader although her record as a minister is mixed and perhaps looks adequate only in the rear view mirror.

    However, I'd point to the phrase, "growing consensus" in the article. Perhaps this time it's different but I've always taken that to mean no consensus other than in the mind of the person which hopes to be the beneficiary of such consensus.

    She is total and utter crap, as said before if she is the answer then labour is dead.
    That was ( is ) your opinion of Ruth Davidson. So we can say your opinion is worthless.
    LOL, only morons think Ruth is anything other than a great empty barrel. She will run out of animals to pose on for the tame right wing media. Southern Tories are easy pleased.
    How many seats do the non-morons think is beyond the great empty barrel?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    malcolmg said:

    LOL, only morons think Ruth is anything other than a great empty barrel. She will run out of animals to pose on for the tame right wing media. Southern Tories are easy pleased.

    In you more reflective moments as you gaze across the hallowed crops of revered turnips, what's your considered assessment for each party MP strength from Scotland after 8th June?
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited May 2017


    As I have pointed out before, the recruitment and retention problems in staffing are getting worse, with record numbers of GP vacancies:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patients-wait-longer-as-gp-jobs-lie-vacant-cw88dshc7?shareToken=74a63508f3ea258d07901827bc4c5440

    Hospital specialities too:

    https://twitter.com/DrGrumble/status/862919041001938945

    I reckon this to be a bigger problem than funding.


    8% - equivalent to about c.5m people as a proportion of our population.

    So, on these staff numbers and whilst making zero efficiencies, we would be fully staffed on a population of 60-61m?

  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    ydoethur said:

    Just to add, I remember how traumatic the 1992 defeat was the for the party - and this coming one will be far worse. It was the memory of the defeat two years earlier that meant that Blair was able to win the 1994 leadership election so easily.

    Why? Surely the big problem in 1992 was that as in 1970 (and indeed 2015) Labour didn't see it coming. They were convinced they were going to win or at least force a hung parliament (one of the more amusing moments of the 1992 election coverage is Gordon Brown saying that because the Tories had lost their overall majority they should resign immediately and let Labour take power even if Labour were second overall). They just had no idea of how unpopular they still were.

    This time even the most stupid Corbynista must know they are in for the worst beating since Margaret d'Anjou turned her exhausted and outnumbered forces to face the rampaging Edward IV at Tewkesbury in 1471. They cannot believe that the apologist for terrorism is popular unless they are suffering from serious sight and hearing impediments.

    Of course, the revelation that everyone can see how loathsome they are will be a trauma for people who genuinely believe they are decent, always right and normal. Whether it will jerk them to reality is a different question. But a trauma like 1992? Can't see it.
    Re. your penultimate paragraph, self-awareness does not strike me as one of the most prominent qualities of the average Corbynista. 9 June will be the day everyone in the Party needs to wake up to reality.
    Yes, but there are reasons. Although many Corbynites do indeed have huge awareness issues, that comes from the fact that so many of them are keyboard warriors caught up in their own echo chamber. Those doing the canvassing, if reports are right, are still dominated by the pre-2015 membership and - at least in my area - they know full well the scale of their unpopularity.
    Yep.

    The level of delusion among Corbynistas is unbelievable. They can't understand how anyone could dislike or even be critical of Corbyn. I notice they NEVER acknowledge his controversial comments/associations, it's like they pretend it never happened and Jeremy is just a nice, kind man being bullied by the 'EVIL' Tory media. They see themselves as independent thinkers who haven't brought into the media 'lies.' They believe the BBC is some kind of right-wing organisation.

    It goes on and on.
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    http://viz.co.uk/internet-reach-wales-2020/

    This is why the Welsh NHS hasn't been effected.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    FF43 said:

    A very interesting candidate, who outperforms the Labour average in recruiting voters in her Birmingham seat. The kind of seat Labour needs to win. Ambitious too, as evidenced by her "Westminster is worth a Brexit" decision.

    Phillips would be outstanding. But a Labour party that would elect Phillips as leader would have voted for Stella Creasy as deputy leader. They didn't - they chose that old bruiser Watson instead - and since then the Labour electorate has gravitated still further towards Momentum.

    I'm increasingly of the opinion that the most likely way out of this will be SDP2. Corbyn is immovable.
    The other reason why I think Jess Philips could work is that I think she could appeal to the internet activists that signed up for Corbyn. I think these voted for the idea of Corbyn rather than as partisans of his type of politics. Philips could make a pitch as a charismatic anti establishment figure that would be more attractive to the membership than Momentum stooge #2. The question is how much support she would get from the PLP and the unions.

    There are some parallels with Nicola Sturgeon, who was also an aggressive (since toned down) feminist.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005

    Ishmael_Z said:

    On topic, I agree with pretty much all that Mike's written, except that I'm not convinced that if push came to shove, Corbyn wouldn't stand down. He clearly doesn't like many aspects of the job and must know that he's woefully out of his depth, and that only loyalty to his supporters and his cause is sustaining him. If it became apparent that he couldn't win a third contest, why try?

    You assume a clarity of vision on Corbyn's part when examining himself, which he doesn't have when examining anything else. Point two, the central metaphor of everything he has ever done is the fight: though cowards flinch and traitors sneer and so on, and a large proportion of his followers will revile him for ever as a sellout capitalist running-dog lackey if he tries to make an orderly exit. He has a huge dilemma in front of him.
    It's more his friends I expect clarity of vision from. And on the 'sellout' question, I'm sure he'd phrase it as passing on the torch.
    Pass it on to whom? If there is clear intent by Labour MPs to have a coronation the grassroots will expect Corbyn to fight on.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    MJW

    I agree that those arguments will be aired, but they will be trumped by the reality of the fact that the Tories won by a landslide, and Corbyn will own that defeat.

    Those on Twitter will blame voters and pull the same stunts they did two years ago when Ed Miliband lost. These fools NEVER learn.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,772
    JackW said:

    malcolmg said:

    LOL, only morons think Ruth is anything other than a great empty barrel. She will run out of animals to pose on for the tame right wing media. Southern Tories are easy pleased.

    In you more reflective moments as you gaze across the hallowed crops of revered turnips, what's your considered assessment for each party MP strength from Scotland after 8th June?
    Conservative 45, Lib Dem 4, Labour 3, SNP 7
  • booksellerbookseller Posts: 416
    welshowl said:

    Mr. MJW, from a purely neutral perspective, it'll be interesting to see how it plays with the public.

    It might just entrench opinions: We need more spending/why did NHS trusts spend so much on diversity officers rather than IT?

    It appears that NHS Wales is unaffected. Did they do their updates more carefully, or use non-Micro$oft systems?Or was it just luck?
    All the passwords are written in Welsh, no international hacking force can get through that kind of firewall.
    Wind Talkers in WWII
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    They just love Uncle Joremy.. Not sure if this link from fb app will work, a very popular post today https://www.facebook.com/andy.haring1/posts/10155257516589603
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    saddo said:

    http://viz.co.uk/internet-reach-wales-2020/

    This is why the Welsh NHS hasn't been effected.

    lol
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The level of delusion among Corbynistas is unbelievable. They can't understand how anyone could dislike or even be critical of Corbyn. I notice they NEVER acknowledge his controversial comments/associations, it's like they pretend it never happened and Jeremy is just a nice, kind man being bullied by the 'EVIL' Tory media. They see themselves as independent thinkers who haven't brought into the media 'lies.' They believe the BBC is some kind of right-wing organisation.

    It goes on and on.

    Kevin Maguire claims Corbyn's historical support of the IRA is a smear
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    matt said:

    I'd don't think that she'd be a bad opposition leader although her record as a minister is mixed and perhaps looks adequate only in the rear view mirror.

    However, I'd point to the phrase, "growing consensus" in the article. Perhaps this time it's different but I've always taken that to mean no consensus other than in the mind of the person which hopes to be the beneficiary of such consensus.

    She is total and utter crap, as said before if she is the answer then labour is dead.
    That was ( is ) your opinion of Ruth Davidson. So we can say your opinion is worthless.
    LOL, only morons think Ruth is anything other than a great empty barrel. She will run out of animals to pose on for the tame right wing media. Southern Tories are easy pleased.
    Salmond on toast for tea tonight

    Might add some pickled Sturgeon
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    chestnut said:


    As I have pointed out before, the recruitment and retention problems in staffing are getting worse, with record numbers of GP vacancies:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patients-wait-longer-as-gp-jobs-lie-vacant-cw88dshc7?shareToken=74a63508f3ea258d07901827bc4c5440

    Hospital specialities too:

    https://twitter.com/DrGrumble/status/862919041001938945

    I reckon this to be a bigger problem than funding.


    8% - equivalent to about c.5m people as a proportion of our population.

    So, on these staff numbers and whilst making zero efficiencies, we would be fully staffed on a population of 60-61m?

    You are Diane Abbott and I claim my £5.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    malcolmg said:

    LOL, only morons think Ruth is anything other than a great empty barrel. She will run out of animals to pose on for the tame right wing media. Southern Tories are easy pleased.

    In you more reflective moments as you gaze across the hallowed crops of revered turnips, what's your considered assessment for each party MP strength from Scotland after 8th June?
    Conservative 45, Lib Dem 4, Labour 3, SNP 7
    I think @malcolmg has sent you a case of Chateau Mouton Roth-Turnip and you've polished off the lot overnight ....
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005

    MJW

    I agree that those arguments will be aired, but they will be trumped by the reality of the fact that the Tories won by a landslide, and Corbyn will own that defeat.

    Those on Twitter will blame voters and pull the same stunts they did two years ago when Ed Miliband lost. These fools NEVER learn.
    I don't think they'll blame voters as such. But they'll certainly blame the media except for Channel 4. The BBC is certainly not exempt from this. I think they basically regard the voters as lemmings.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited May 2017
    Scott_P said:

    The level of delusion among Corbynistas is unbelievable. They can't understand how anyone could dislike or even be critical of Corbyn. I notice they NEVER acknowledge his controversial comments/associations, it's like they pretend it never happened and Jeremy is just a nice, kind man being bullied by the 'EVIL' Tory media. They see themselves as independent thinkers who haven't brought into the media 'lies.' They believe the BBC is some kind of right-wing organisation.

    It goes on and on.

    Kevin Maguire claims Corbyn's historical support of the IRA is a smear
    LOL I always say that Corbyn and Trump supporters have a lot in common. Both groups have a ridiculous cult-like devotion to their leaders which means they feel they challenge facts.

    The most DELUSIONAL Corbynite by far is Paul Mason. My God.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited May 2017
    saddo said:

    http://viz.co.uk/internet-reach-wales-2020/

    This is why the Welsh NHS hasn't been effected.

    very very funny
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    DavidL said:


    If it had just been the NHS it might have been more of an issue. But this attack has hit systems world wide. There is an argument that head counting doctors and nurses in the NHS has resulted in other equally important aspects of the service being neglected including its software. But who is going to argue that too much money was spent on doctors?

    I think Microsoft will see some serious reputational damage. While their support policy is logical on its own terms, ultimately it was their product and they failed to ensure basic protection for it.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    chestnut said:


    As I have pointed out before, the recruitment and retention problems in staffing are getting worse, with record numbers of GP vacancies:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patients-wait-longer-as-gp-jobs-lie-vacant-cw88dshc7?shareToken=74a63508f3ea258d07901827bc4c5440

    Hospital specialities too:

    https://twitter.com/DrGrumble/status/862919041001938945

    I reckon this to be a bigger problem than funding.


    8% - equivalent to about c.5m people as a proportion of our population.

    So, on these staff numbers and whilst making zero efficiencies, we would be fully staffed on a population of 60-61m?

    12% for GPs.

    About 1/3 of British doctors are immigrants, if that is what you are getting at. It is not the problem though, as in 2010 only 2% of GP posts were vacant. The problem is failure to retain trained staff.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    chestnut said:


    As I have pointed out before, the recruitment and retention problems in staffing are getting worse, with record numbers of GP vacancies:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patients-wait-longer-as-gp-jobs-lie-vacant-cw88dshc7?shareToken=74a63508f3ea258d07901827bc4c5440

    Hospital specialities too:

    https://twitter.com/DrGrumble/status/862919041001938945

    I reckon this to be a bigger problem than funding.


    8% - equivalent to about c.5m people as a proportion of our population.

    So, on these staff numbers and whilst making zero efficiencies, we would be fully staffed on a population of 60-61m?

    You are Diane Abbott and I claim my £5.
    "Dr Stokes-Lampard added: “Workload in general practice is escalating — it has increased 16 per cent over the last seven years according to the latest research "

    The population has risen by 3m over the same period.


  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,772
    JackW said:

    Sean_F said:

    JackW said:

    malcolmg said:

    LOL, only morons think Ruth is anything other than a great empty barrel. She will run out of animals to pose on for the tame right wing media. Southern Tories are easy pleased.

    In you more reflective moments as you gaze across the hallowed crops of revered turnips, what's your considered assessment for each party MP strength from Scotland after 8th June?
    Conservative 45, Lib Dem 4, Labour 3, SNP 7
    I think @malcolmg has sent you a case of Chateau Mouton Roth-Turnip and you've polished off the lot overnight ....
    Joking aside, my best guess would be Con 10, Lib Dem 3, Labour 2, SNP 44.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    MJW

    I agree that those arguments will be aired, but they will be trumped by the reality of the fact that the Tories won by a landslide, and Corbyn will own that defeat.

    Those on Twitter will blame voters and pull the same stunts they did two years ago when Ed Miliband lost. These fools NEVER learn.
    I don't think they'll blame voters as such. But they'll certainly blame the media except for Channel 4. The BBC is certainly not exempt from this. I think they basically regard the voters as lemmings.
    I've seen them go in on voters, believe me they consider anyone who doesn't think Jeremy's the best thing ever, a total idiot.

    Their attitude to the BBC is beyond belief. They need to understand that in GEs that leaders must have leadership skills if they're going to win. Coming across as a nice man doesn't mean anything.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Are you sure she had bookings? She seems quite busy at the moment and more into hillwalking than interrailing.

    I don't see increased security threats being bad for the Tories, quite the opposite in fact. It brings home that Corbyn is deluded about his "friends" and not to be trusted on security matters.
    We'll see. It might be irrelevant, or perhaps cause voters to ask if government proposals to weaken computer security are a good (easier to catch the bad guys) or a bad thing (easier to fall victim to hackers exploiting official government holes).
    If it had just been the NHS it might have been more of an issue. But this attack has hit systems world wide. There is an argument that head counting doctors and nurses in the NHS has resulted in other equally important aspects of the service being neglected including its software. But who is going to argue that too much money was spent on doctors?
    As I have pointed out before, the recruitment and retention problems in staffing are getting worse, with record numbers of GP vacancies:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patients-wait-longer-as-gp-jobs-lie-vacant-cw88dshc7?shareToken=74a63508f3ea258d07901827bc4c5440

    Hospital specialities too:

    https://twitter.com/DrGrumble/status/862919041001938945

    I reckon this to be a bigger problem than funding.


    What is Acute Take?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Mr. Owl, weren't Welshmen used to man telephones in WWII, because the Germans couldn't understand a word of what they were saying?

    Was certainly used during peacekeeping in Bosnia, as all communications had to be in "clear". Which a Welsh regiment duly complied with, though not many Bosnian Serbs had the faintest of course what was being said. (source Cardiff Castle exhibition).
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185

    Scott_P said:

    The level of delusion among Corbynistas is unbelievable. They can't understand how anyone could dislike or even be critical of Corbyn. I notice they NEVER acknowledge his controversial comments/associations, it's like they pretend it never happened and Jeremy is just a nice, kind man being bullied by the 'EVIL' Tory media. They see themselves as independent thinkers who haven't brought into the media 'lies.' They believe the BBC is some kind of right-wing organisation.

    It goes on and on.

    Kevin Maguire claims Corbyn's historical support of the IRA is a smear
    LOL I always say that Corbyn and Trump supporters have a lot in common. Both groups have a ridiculous cult-like devotion to their leaders which means they feel they challenge facts.

    The most DELUSIONAL Corbynite by far is Paul Mason. My God.
    Not Eoin Clarke?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    I just got an email (on a Saturday morning) from corporate, advising users about the ransomware attack, and what to do if my machine is infected.

    It includes the instruction to call the helpdesk...

    ...which is open Monday to Friday.
  • Whilst the NHS are running XP, I thought the exploited vulnerability was in Word and was vulnerable on modern versions of OS.

    Thought the March patch Microsoft released was for Office and not Windows to rectify this.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited May 2017

    chestnut said:


    As I have pointed out before, the recruitment and retention problems in staffing are getting worse, with record numbers of GP vacancies:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patients-wait-longer-as-gp-jobs-lie-vacant-cw88dshc7?shareToken=74a63508f3ea258d07901827bc4c5440

    Hospital specialities too:

    https://twitter.com/DrGrumble/status/862919041001938945

    I reckon this to be a bigger problem than funding.


    8% - equivalent to about c.5m people as a proportion of our population.

    So, on these staff numbers and whilst making zero efficiencies, we would be fully staffed on a population of 60-61m?

    12% for GPs.

    About 1/3 of British doctors are immigrants, if that is what you are getting at. It is not the problem though, as in 2010 only 2% of GP posts were vacant. The problem is failure to retain trained staff.
    We can't keep complaining about resource problems when we are letting in 300k people a year with no sensible filter on who is being allowed in.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:


    If it had just been the NHS it might have been more of an issue. But this attack has hit systems world wide. There is an argument that head counting doctors and nurses in the NHS has resulted in other equally important aspects of the service being neglected including its software. But who is going to argue that too much money was spent on doctors?

    I think Microsoft will see some serious reputational damage. While their support policy is logical on its own terms, ultimately it was their product and they failed to ensure basic protection for it.

    Microsoft issued a patch for this back in March. They said at time updating the software with new fix was "critical"

    https://securelist.com/blog/incidents/78351/wannacry-ransomware-used-in-widespread-attacks-all-over-the-world/
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    HaroldO said:

    Scott_P said:

    The level of delusion among Corbynistas is unbelievable. They can't understand how anyone could dislike or even be critical of Corbyn. I notice they NEVER acknowledge his controversial comments/associations, it's like they pretend it never happened and Jeremy is just a nice, kind man being bullied by the 'EVIL' Tory media. They see themselves as independent thinkers who haven't brought into the media 'lies.' They believe the BBC is some kind of right-wing organisation.

    It goes on and on.

    Kevin Maguire claims Corbyn's historical support of the IRA is a smear
    LOL I always say that Corbyn and Trump supporters have a lot in common. Both groups have a ridiculous cult-like devotion to their leaders which means they feel they challenge facts.

    The most DELUSIONAL Corbynite by far is Paul Mason. My God.
    Not Eoin Clarke?
    I've heard of him on here, but I've never seen him on TV or checked his twitter. I'll look now.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Are you sure she had bookings? She seems quite busy at the moment and more into hillwalking than interrailing.

    I don't see increased security threats being bad for the Tories, quite the opposite in fact. It brings home that Corbyn is deluded about his "friends" and not to be trusted on security matters.
    We'll see. It might be irrelevant, or perhaps cause voters to ask if government proposals to weaken computer security are a good (easier to catch the bad guys) or a bad thing (easier to fall victim to hackers exploiting official government holes).
    If it had just been the NHS it might have been more of an issue. But this attack has hit systems world wide. There is an argument that head counting doctors and nurses in the NHS has resulted in other equally important aspects of the service being neglected including its software. But who is going to argue that too much money was spent on doctors?
    As I have pointed out before, the recruitment and retention problems in staffing are getting worse, with record numbers of GP vacancies:

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/patients-wait-longer-as-gp-jobs-lie-vacant-cw88dshc7?shareToken=74a63508f3ea258d07901827bc4c5440

    Hospital specialities too:

    https://twitter.com/DrGrumble/status/862919041001938945

    I reckon this to be a bigger problem than funding.


    What is Acute Take?
    General Medicine on call, all non sub speciality admissions.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:


    If it had just been the NHS it might have been more of an issue. But this attack has hit systems world wide. There is an argument that head counting doctors and nurses in the NHS has resulted in other equally important aspects of the service being neglected including its software. But who is going to argue that too much money was spent on doctors?

    I think Microsoft will see some serious reputational damage. While their support policy is logical on its own terms, ultimately it was their product and they failed to ensure basic protection for it.

    Microsoft issued a patch for this back in March. They said at time updating the software with new fix was "critical"

    https://securelist.com/blog/incidents/78351/wannacry-ransomware-used-in-widespread-attacks-all-over-the-world/
    As I say, their support policy is logical. However, Windows is no longer the must-have product. This incident will give people a good reason to go for something else than Windows.
This discussion has been closed.