Sunil - We will have a referendum on the EU in 2017 so that is already being dealt with by Cameron if re-elected. I fail to see why overseas aid to growing economies like India is increased at the expense of cuts to the armed forces, libraries, social services, the police, legal aid etc
HYUFD, we had recent cutbacks announced of about 11 bn, far less than the 18 bn splurged to Europe.
"Mandarins face sack after refusing to answer tax questions Exclusive: More than 100 senior civil servants employed 'off-payroll' are refusing to reveal how much tax they pay, in defiance of orders from the Treasury."
Tim The FT is left of centre, it qualifies under "do bears shit in the woods". I couldn't give a toss what the FT writes, or what any paper writes, I'll make up my own mind thanks.
Ah Avery is here, the intellectual bulwark of the Tory case for ID cards.
Avery, what would you like to say to those who believe spot checks on a racial basis are a good thing but who refuse to say what documents they would force non white people to carry in order to verify their status?
I don't doubt it's authenticity, but it is worth noting that you haven't seen fit to class MaxPB's account of his spot check as an anecdote
Ah Avery is here, the intellectual bulwark of the Tory case for ID cards.
Avery, what would you like to say to those who believe spot checks on a racial basis are a good thing but who refuse to say what documents they would force non white people to carry in order to verify their status?
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks. The Home Office has denied this is what is going on and claim that the interviews and arrests are all intelligence led. All evidence to the contrary appears to be very circumstantial and fuelled by prejudicial political views.
Iain Dale has comprehensively shown how those eager to make a quick political point tend to make claims based on inadequate evidence.
On ID cards, I support a foreign national registration card, similar to that required in other countries, e.g as in Japan and Russia whose requirements we have discussed at length over the past two days.
In the event that a law enforcement official were to inquire of a "non-white" UK national as to their nationality and residency status, and given that such inquiry was lawful, my recommendation would be to answer the questions quickly and politely and, if required, produce whatever corroborating evidence you may have about you and/or to provide whatever information may be useful and pertinent to the officer in the conduct of his inquiry.
Let's move off immigration offences in order to provide a less politically charged example.
If the police had reasonable suspicion that a group of people were planning to commit an offence, involving let's say the possession of lethal knives, and that this group was due to congregate at a known rallying point using the underground, then it would be quite reasonable for the Met to mount a stop and search operation at relevant stations.
If the group were known to be, say, EDL members and supporters, then I would expect the Police to stop and search more white skinned 'suspects' than those who were non-white. If it were a counter EDL rally of muslim extremists then I would expect the police to adopt the opposite profiling tactics.
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks.
We know that random checks at tubes have been stopped since TFL told the Labour government to sling their hook. As a good new Labour supporter tim is probably yearning for the return of those days. However we have no idea what "intelligence" there is behind the intelligence-led checks they are doing now. I suppose they might suspect they are 45 minutes away from an illegal immigrant. We know the powers officials have in these situations are very limited. As I have speculated a lot recently, it is likely that most arrests result from people (some of them completely innocent) being intimidated into saying or doing something that gives officials reasonable belief that they can be questioned.
Must admit reading posts from some of the pb tories , Cameron would have been better describing his own party as containing fruitcakes loonies and closet racists .
Remind me how many ethnic minority LibDem MPs there are, Mark.
Now Sunil , you are really getting desperate in justifying Conservative policy to yourself . Perhaps your attitude may change when you are subjected to the same sort of harassment as Max .
I'm not justifying any kind of racism, but do you think the LibDems are racist in not selecting enough ethnic parliamentary candidates? Or is there some other underlying reason for the lack of ethnic LibDem MPs?
We have had plenty of ethnic parliamentary candidates but not in winnable seats . The underlying reason is clearly that we have fewer MPs the majority of whom are local to their seats .
Can ethnic LD parliamentary candidates not be local to their seats?
Must admit reading posts from some of the pb tories , Cameron would have been better describing his own party as containing fruitcakes loonies and closet racists .
Remind me how many ethnic minority LibDem MPs there are, Mark.
Now Sunil , you are really getting desperate in justifying Conservative policy to yourself . Perhaps your attitude may change when you are subjected to the same sort of harassment as Max .
I'm not justifying any kind of racism, but do you think the LibDems are racist in not selecting enough ethnic parliamentary candidates? Or is there some other underlying reason for the lack of ethnic LibDem MPs?
We have had plenty of ethnic parliamentary candidates but not in winnable seats . The underlying reason is clearly that we have fewer MPs the majority of whom are local to their seats .
Can ethnic LD parliamentary candidates not be local to their seats?
Must admit reading posts from some of the pb tories , Cameron would have been better describing his own party as containing fruitcakes loonies and closet racists .
Remind me how many ethnic minority LibDem MPs there are, Mark.
Now Sunil , you are really getting desperate in justifying Conservative policy to yourself . Perhaps your attitude may change when you are subjected to the same sort of harassment as Max .
I'm not justifying any kind of racism, but do you think the LibDems are racist in not selecting enough ethnic parliamentary candidates? Or is there some other underlying reason for the lack of ethnic LibDem MPs?
We have had plenty of ethnic parliamentary candidates but not in winnable seats . The underlying reason is clearly that we have fewer MPs the majority of whom are local to their seats .
Can ethnic LD parliamentary candidates not be local to their seats?
The next logical question is are ethnic minority candidates not selected for seats that the LDs have a good chance of winning?
IIRC The LDs have more men with knighthoods than they have female MPs.
Sunil - Stop trying to change the subject when I have already made the point that there will be a referendum on the EU in 2017 if Cameron is re-elected and if there is a vote for withdrawal there will be NO further payments to the EU. Yet, Cameron continues to support increases to overseas aid spending seemingly without end at a time when key departments and services elsewhere are facing large cuts!
Sunil - Stop trying to change the subject when I have already made the point that there will be a referendum on the EU in 2017 if Cameron is re-elected and if there is a vote for withdrawal there will be NO further payments to the EU. Yet, Cameron continues to support increases to overseas aid spending seemingly without end at a time when key departments and services elsewhere are facing large cuts!
How do you know there WILL be a referendum in 2017?
Must admit reading posts from some of the pb tories , Cameron would have been better describing his own party as containing fruitcakes loonies and closet racists .
Remind me how many ethnic minority LibDem MPs there are, Mark.
Now Sunil , you are really getting desperate in justifying Conservative policy to yourself . Perhaps your attitude may change when you are subjected to the same sort of harassment as Max .
I'm not justifying any kind of racism, but do you think the LibDems are racist in not selecting enough ethnic parliamentary candidates? Or is there some other underlying reason for the lack of ethnic LibDem MPs?
We have had plenty of ethnic parliamentary candidates but not in winnable seats . The underlying reason is clearly that we have fewer MPs the majority of whom are local to their seats .
Can ethnic LD parliamentary candidates not be local to their seats?
The next logical question is are ethnic minority candidates not selected for seats that the LDs have a good chance of winning?
IIRC The LDs have more men with knighthoods than they have female MPs.
In my days knocking on doors it was a well-known fact that the LDs had the nastiest local campaigns. No stunt was too low to stoop to for them.
It would be nice to put this down to political expediency but one wonders what lies at the heart of the LD organisation.
No wonder there is no ready replacement for NC. His years at Westminster (School) obviously taught him the value of respecting those from around the world.
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks.
We know that random checks at tubes have been stopped since TFL told the Labour government to sling their hook. As a good new Labour supporter tim is probably yearning for the return of those days. However we have no idea what "intelligence" there is behind the intelligence-led checks they are doing now. I suppose they might suspect they are 45 minutes away from an illegal immigrant. We know the powers officials have in these situations are very limited. As I have speculated a lot recently, it is likely that most arrests result from people (some of them completely innocent) being intimidated into saying or doing something that gives officials reasonable belief that they can be questioned.
Max, in his excitement yeserday, made one very good post saying basically that the law should be changed to support current actions rather than bent to allow it.
I do think it is reasonable that a foreign national residing in the UK should be required to provide documentary evidence of legal status upon reasonable demand.
A lot of detail needed here, but I am content, at this stage, merely to state the principle.
I wouldn't want to require immigrants to produce papers on the spot, but I could imagine being required to present them to a police station with 7 or 14 days. That way if there were false positives, they wouldn't pose so much of a problem.
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks.
We know that random checks at tubes have been stopped since TFL told the Labour government to sling their hook. As a good new Labour supporter tim is probably yearning for the return of those days. However we have no idea what "intelligence" there is behind the intelligence-led checks they are doing now. I suppose they might suspect they are 45 minutes away from an illegal immigrant. We know the powers officials have in these situations are very limited. As I have speculated a lot recently, it is likely that most arrests result from people (some of them completely innocent) being intimidated into saying or doing something that gives officials reasonable belief that they can be questioned.
I agree with you, Neil, that the intelligence possessed by the Police is likely to be very limited.
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks.
We know that random checks at tubes have been stopped since TFL told the Labour government to sling their hook. As a good new Labour supporter tim is probably yearning for the return of those days. However we have no idea what "intelligence" there is behind the intelligence-led checks they are doing now. I suppose they might suspect they are 45 minutes away from an illegal immigrant. We know the powers officials have in these situations are very limited. As I have speculated a lot recently, it is likely that most arrests result from people (some of them completely innocent) being intimidated into saying or doing something that gives officials reasonable belief that they can be questioned.
Max, in his excitement yeserday, made one very good post saying basically that the law should be changed to support current actions rather than bent to allow it.
I do think it is reasonable that a foreign national residing in the UK should be required to provide documentary evidence of legal status upon reasonable demand.
A lot of detail needed here, but I am content, at this stage, merely to state the principle.
The thing is, and although I think strategically it was the right thing to do as it will imprint on peoples' minds the impression that the Tories are saying the right thing about illegal immigrants and have forced UKIP to put up or shut up (they shut up), it was nevertheless an extremely crass operation and by the sounds of it, abused in cases also.
If they were going to do something like this then why not 10 carefully thought-out raids on known illegal immigrant workplaces (please don't tell me these are unknown)? Much better all round.
The execution is the issue I have with this, not the broader political intent.
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks.
We know that random checks at tubes have been stopped since TFL told the Labour government to sling their hook. As a good new Labour supporter tim is probably yearning for the return of those days. However we have no idea what "intelligence" there is behind the intelligence-led checks they are doing now. I suppose they might suspect they are 45 minutes away from an illegal immigrant. We know the powers officials have in these situations are very limited. As I have speculated a lot recently, it is likely that most arrests result from people (some of them completely innocent) being intimidated into saying or doing something that gives officials reasonable belief that they can be questioned.
Max, in his excitement yeserday, made one very good post saying basically that the law should be changed to support current actions rather than bent to allow it.
I do think it is reasonable that a foreign national residing in the UK should be required to provide documentary evidence of legal status upon reasonable demand.
A lot of detail needed here, but I am content, at this stage, merely to state the principle.
My argument last night was that I couldnt see how that could possibly work without demanding the same from UK nationals. As you didnt give a coherent explanation in the many posts in which you replied on that point I concluded that you couldnt either.
Personally I dont think requiring UK nationals to show papers on demand will fly but good luck to you if you think differently.
"I have long admired Prime Minister Cameron. I will be offering strategic campaign advice leading up to 2015". ~ Jim Messina
"Quite an endorsement for the PM." says BBC's Stratton
Having listened to Plato's youtube interview, I am relieved that Mr. Messina will be advising Prime Minister Cameron from the comfort of his base in the United States.
I fear he would be a poor companion at a Bullingdon Club dinner.
Inspired choice that will cause yet further panic among the Labour and Libdem teams and their supporters at this stage in the GE campaign. It will also bring a balance to the Conservative campaign team that will make it far harder for their Labour and Libdem opponents to attack. The Conservatives have certainly been very busy this year, and its going to be interesting an interesting Conference season for us anoraks.
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks.
We know that random checks at tubes have been stopped since TFL told the Labour government to sling their hook. As a good new Labour supporter tim is probably yearning for the return of those days. However we have no idea what "intelligence" there is behind the intelligence-led checks they are doing now. I suppose they might suspect they are 45 minutes away from an illegal immigrant. We know the powers officials have in these situations are very limited. As I have speculated a lot recently, it is likely that most arrests result from people (some of them completely innocent) being intimidated into saying or doing something that gives officials reasonable belief that they can be questioned.
Max, in his excitement yeserday, made one very good post saying basically that the law should be changed to support current actions rather than bent to allow it.
I do think it is reasonable that a foreign national residing in the UK should be required to provide documentary evidence of legal status upon reasonable demand.
A lot of detail needed here, but I am content, at this stage, merely to state the principle.
My argument last night was that I couldnt see how that could possibly work without demanding the same from UK nationals. As you didnt give a coherent explanation in the many posts in which you replied on that point I concluded that you couldnt either.
Personally I dont think requiring UK nationals to show papers on demand will fly but good luck to you if you think differently.
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks.
...
Max, in his excitement yeserday, made one very good post saying basically that the law should be changed to support current actions rather than bent to allow it.
I do think it is reasonable that a foreign national residing in the UK should be required to provide documentary evidence of legal status upon reasonable demand.
A lot of detail needed here, but I am content, at this stage, merely to state the principle.
The thing is, and although I think strategically it was the right thing to do as it will imprint on peoples' minds the impression that the Tories are saying the right thing about illegal immigrants and have forced UKIP to put up or shut up (they shut up), it was nevertheless an extremely crass operation and by the sounds of it, abused in cases also.
If they were going to do something like this then why not 10 carefully thought-out raids on known illegal immigrant workplaces (please don't tell me these are unknown)? Much better all round.
The execution is the issue I have with this, not the broader political intent.
I haven't thought your point through, but my first reaction is that any Tory clampdown on illegal immigration by the UKBA and Home Office would always be likely to get vociferous and persistent opposition from the usual sources.
Tactically it may have been right to allow a short August thunderstorm to clear the air, then let Dave return from his holidays to cancel both the van and the underground stop and snatch ops.
Outflanking UKIP on the right and Labour on the left seems to be the new campaign tactics.
Inspired choice that will cause yet further panic among the Labour and Libdem teams and their supporters at this stage in the GE campaign. It will also bring a balance to the Conservative campaign team that will make it far harder for their Labour and Libdem opponents to attack. The Conservatives have certainly been very busy this year, and its going to be interesting an interesting Conference season for us anoraks.
"I have long admired Prime Minister Cameron. I will be offering strategic campaign advice leading up to 2015". ~ Jim Messina
"Quite an endorsement for the PM." says BBC's Stratton
At times the Tories seem to be to the Left of the Democrats - I'm sure they've a lot in common.
I love conference season - just wish the TUC one was like days of old - the massive hall, the rumpled suits and aggressive t-shirts, strange language of composites and walk-outs/red light flashing as the speaker refused to shut it.
The last one I saw was held in a seedy looking badly lit hotel basement with 200 bored looking blokes. I wish the Parly channel would show some old party conferences/PPBs on the weekend/during recess - it'd be a hoot!
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks.
...
Max, in his excitement yeserday, made one very good post saying basically that the law should be changed to support current actions rather than bent to allow it.
I do think it is reasonable that a foreign national residing in the UK should be required to provide documentary evidence of legal status upon reasonable demand.
A lot of detail needed here, but I am content, at this stage, merely to state the principle.
The thing is, and although I think strategically it was the right thing to do as it will imprint on peoples' minds the impression that the Tories are saying the right thing about illegal immigrants and have forced UKIP to put up or shut up (they shut up), it was nevertheless an extremely crass operation and by the sounds of it, abused in cases also.
If they were going to do something like this then why not 10 carefully thought-out raids on known illegal immigrant workplaces (please don't tell me these are unknown)? Much better all round.
The execution is the issue I have with this, not the broader political intent.
I haven't thought your point through, but my first reaction is that any Tory clampdown on illegal immigration by the UKBA and Home Office would always be likely to get vociferous and persistent opposition from the usual sources.
Tactically it may have been right to allow a short August thunderstorm to clear the air, then let Dave return from his holidays to cancel both the van and the underground stop and snatch ops.
Outflanking UKIP on the right and Labour on the left seems to be the new campaign tactics.
The whole reason for conducting the operation now at the beginning of August is that Parliament is not sitting and Cameron hopes that it will all have blown over before he has to answer PQ's on the subject .
I agree although I don't think they are looking to outflank UKIP on the right - they are forcing UKIP to be explicit about their immigration policies. They condemn a (clumsy) attempt to address illegals so where does that leave them in the public perception of UKIP = anti-immigrant?
And yes I also agree that Dave will show a firm hand when he returns, we can all draft the statement "on reflection there are more efficient ways of addressing a problem that we know exists and we are working hard, etc, etc, blah, blah".
My only explanation (assuming Lynton had full control) was that he knew it would cause a stink and he believes that that is the only way to achieve longevity so that the national subconscious will, by 2015 and forgetting this incident, identify the Tories as "right" on illegal immigrants, Labour wrong and UKIP as having bottled it.
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks.
...
Max, in his excitement yeserday, made one very good post saying basically that the law should be changed to support current actions rather than bent to allow it.
I do think it is reasonable that a foreign national residing in the UK should be required to provide documentary evidence of legal status upon reasonable demand.
A lot of detail needed here, but I am content, at this stage, merely to state the principle.
The thing is, and although I think strategically it was the right thing to do as it will imprint on peoples' minds the impression that the Tories are saying the right thing about illegal immigrants and have forced UKIP to put up or shut up (they shut up), it was nevertheless an extremely crass operation and by the sounds of it, abused in cases also.
If they were going to do something like this then why not 10 carefully thought-out raids on known illegal immigrant workplaces (please don't tell me these are unknown)? Much better all round.
The execution is the issue I have with this, not the broader political intent.
I haven't thought your point through, but my first reaction is that any Tory clampdown on illegal immigration by the UKBA and Home Office would always be likely to get vociferous and persistent opposition from the usual sources.
Tactically it may have been right to allow a short August thunderstorm to clear the air, then let Dave return from his holidays to cancel both the van and the underground stop and snatch ops.
Outflanking UKIP on the right and Labour on the left seems to be the new campaign tactics.
The whole reason for conducting the operation now at the beginning of August is that Parliament is not sitting and Cameron hopes that it will all have blown over before he has to answer PQ's on the subject .
hi Mark apologies if you missed this but my earlier question:
Can ethnic LD parliamentary candidates not be local to their seats?
I agree although I don't think they are looking to outflank UKIP on the right - they are forcing UKIP to be explicit about their immigration policies. They condemn a (clumsy) attempt to address illegals so where does that leave them in the public perception of UKIP = anti-immigrant?
And yes I also agree that Dave will show a firm hand when he returns, we can all draft the statement "on reflection there are more efficient ways of addressing a problem that we know exists and we are working hard, etc, etc, blah, blah".
My only explanation (assuming Lynton had full control) was that he knew it would cause a stink and he believes that that is the only way to achieve longevity so that the national subconscious will, by 2015 and forgetting this incident, identify the Tories as "right" on illegal immigrants, Labour wrong and UKIP as having bottled it.
Crosby if he had a hand in it has wedged yet another issue. Labour and the LDs are pushed into saying that its racist to catch illegal immigrants and Kippers have joined them.
The rest of the population are saying Erm, they're here illegally, not paying tax, are using the NHS and most of them are probably from Africa and Asia so probably aren't white - what's the fuss about?
Calling people racists for making perfectly reasonable assumptions is very 2010. I'm not cowed by it.
"Arnie Graf sounds like a lovely, genuine, moral man. He’s been involved in some truly inspiring campaigns and deserves heartfelt applause for his stands on everything from civil rights to low pay.
He should also be immediately shuffled out of the Labour party’s electoral and organising thinking, never to be heard of again until some point after the 2015 election.
Heartless? Unpleasant? Yes. But also necessary.
Right now, the Tory party are relentlessly focussed. You can feel it in eery press release and tweet.
They’re trying to drag Labour into elephant traps on welfare, immigration and taxation, traps that can be used, come 2015, to rally Tory minded voters in the polls.
They’re defining Ed Miliband as weak and a bit useless, in contrast to David Cameron.
They’re pushing out a message on growth, on the economy which is essentially a chorus of: “I was right and you were wrong, I’m going to sing the ‘I was right‘ song” (repeat).
I’d also suspect they are busy trying to raise an absolute fortune for the election campaign.
There are lots of flaws with this strategy. But it is a strategy."
Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk Want to tell @BarackObama that you're unhappy with @Messina2012 working for a conservative party of austerity? Email support@BarackObama.com
meanwhile Paul Boateng is saying it's racist to go after illegal immigrants in this way but that we don't have enough UKBA officers to, um, go after illegal immigrants....
I was pleased to flush out from the artful dodger, Edmondo (albeit with the assistance of duGarbandier) that Japan has an Alien Registration Card carrying requirement for foreign nationals without a similar National ID card carrying requirement for Japanese citizens.
The vast majority of illegal immigrants will be identified when they come into contact with the regulated economy and state service: e.g. through hospitalisation, gp registration, rental agreements, employment contracts etc. This is where the UKBA is likely to concentrate its major efforts in order to be effective and efficient.
'Stop and search' or casual contact will occur but only as a small proportion of overall law enforcement activity, It is likely to occur co-incidentally to other police operations, say a motoring offence intervention or, say, an police intervention into a brawl at a bar etc.
On such occasions, a police officer (or other appropriate official) may develop a reasonable suspicion that one or more of the persons involved in the primary incident may have committed a crime by breaking immigration law.
A simple procedure is needed whereby documentary evidence of legal residency can be quickly established. The submission and validation of a foreign national ID card would be quickest and least painful option for all involved when the individual's status is lawful.
For those who are UK citizens, the interrogating officer will merely ask a series of questions which are designed to prove or disprove a reasonable suspicion. Bank cards, driving licences, car registration documents, library cards, employer ID cards, third party endorsement, addresses and telephone numbers are all data than could be considered in such an evaluation.
In well over 90% of cases the legitimate status of UK nationals can be quickly and relatively painlessly established beyond reasonable doubt on the spot. For the exceptions, there would need to be a follow up. Where address, identity and anchor (e.g. employment) are reliable this can be done on a 'driving licence' producer basis. In the very rare cases where there is insufficient data, or where the officer has reasonable suspicion that the information furnished is incorrect or fraudulent, then an 'accompany suspect to documents' approach may be needed.
Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk Want to tell @BarackObama that you're unhappy with @Messina2012 working for a conservative party of austerity? Email support@BarackObama.com
Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk Want to tell @BarackObama that you're unhappy with @Messina2012 working for a conservative party of austerity? Email support@BarackObama.com
Fitalass! It was Corporal Jones and his catchprase was "Don't panic!"
"First the liberal loonies do not want an advert asking for the illegals to identify themselves then they complain again when we try and identify the illegals. What is their solution?"
I'm all ears. And We Wouldn't Start From Here doesn't count...
As I posted yesterday, the HO needs to get on with the exit checks. Then there wouldn't be so much time wasted chasing people who have already left. Again, to repeat myself, some people have a vested interest in not counting people leaving the country, though, because it stops them just making up the figures.
Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk Want to tell @BarackObama that you're unhappy with @Messina2012 working for a conservative party of austerity? Email support@BarackObama.com
I'm really surprised by Mark - he's normally quite sensible and wrote that he thought Mr Messina was a great catch for the Tories only an hour or two earlier.
And then he launches into a Twitter campaign intended to intimidate Mr Messina using THE PRESIDENT OF THE USA as leverage!
Labour have spent all week bitching about trolls and intimidation on Twitter and then he does this?!
You first have to prove that UKBA are carrying out random spot-checks.
...
Max, in his excitement yeserday, made one very good post saying basically that the law should be changed to support current actions rather than bent to allow it.
I do think it is reasonable that a foreign national residing in the UK should be required to provide documentary evidence of legal status upon reasonable demand.
A lot of detail needed here, but I am content, at this stage, merely to state the principle.
The thing is, and although I think strategically it was the right thing to do as it will imprint on peoples' minds the impression that the Tories are saying the right thing about illegal immigrants and have forced UKIP to put up or shut up (they shut up), it was nevertheless an extremely crass operation and by the sounds of it, abused in cases also.
If they were going to do something like this then why not 10 carefully thought-out raids on known illegal immigrant workplaces (please don't tell me these are unknown)? Much better all round.
The execution is the issue I have with this, not the broader political intent.
I haven't thought your point through, but my first reaction is that any Tory clampdown on illegal immigration by the UKBA and Home Office would always be likely to get vociferous and persistent opposition from the usual sources.
Tactically it may have been right to allow a short August thunderstorm to clear the air, then let Dave return from his holidays to cancel both the van and the underground stop and snatch ops.
Outflanking UKIP on the right and Labour on the left seems to be the new campaign tactics.
The whole reason for conducting the operation now at the beginning of August is that Parliament is not sitting and Cameron hopes that it will all have blown over before he has to answer PQ's on the subject .
Partly, Mark.
But Plato and Topping both add further valid reasons for the timing and additional plausible explanations for the tactics.
We all know what is going on is coarse and brutal but the jury is out on whether it will be politically effective.
Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk Want to tell @BarackObama that you're unhappy with @Messina2012 working for a conservative party of austerity? Email support@BarackObama.com
Captain Mainwaring was a more decisive and reassuring leader than Ed Miliband.
Seems to be reasonable unanimity on here. Only black balls Doddy Plato Taffy and of course Sunil. None surprising
Looks like Pbers (excluding the above) don't fit the Crosby view of what a British Tory is like.
Bravo!
What do you mean "and of course Sunil"?
A racist lefty like yourself thinks he knows best, thinks he knows what the brown man should be "offended" by?
Roger singlehandedly toppled Apartheid in his university days by getting the JCR to withdraw its account from Barclays or something. I think it's reasonable of him to expect you to be a bit more Uncle Tom-ish about it.
Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk Want to tell @BarackObama that you're unhappy with @Messina2012 working for a conservative party of austerity? Email support@BarackObama.com
Fitalass! It was Corporal Jones and his catchprase was "Don't panic!"
Police approach "foreigner" foreigner says "I'm British" what documentation should they produce?
"Foreign looking" man walks into doctors surgery "Have you your documentation" "No I'm British"
What happens next?
I can buy this if we all have ID cards, but it won't work without it.
See my response to Neil, which shows how it could work in practice.
I am not convinced a National ID card scheme is necessary, but an accessible database of visa grants would greatly help verification operations. I have in mind the simplicity and speed of a DVLA check.
It should be no surprise that the US has no official National ID card but uses state driving licence systems as a surrogate. It is quite common for those who don't have a car or drive to apply for a 'non-drivers' driving licence solely for the purpose of using it for identification purposes.
The Tories have just kicked Labour in the spreadsheets by hiring Mr Messina - and Labour are crying about it. They could've had the smarts to hire him first but didn't and are now crying about it/trying to intimidate the bloke into resigning the position.
So Tories have hired Crosby AND Messina. Who shld run Labour campaign? Only one choice. Send for Peter Mandelson, the best in the business
lol
And he's quite correct. I have huge respect for Mr Mandelson - he is Machiavelli reincarnated. I'm not sure he'd touch EdM with yours mind. And he has an enormous portfolio of outside interests that make Crosby look like Mother Theresa.
Must admit reading posts from some of the pb tories , Cameron would have been better describing his own party as containing fruitcakes loonies and closet racists .
Remind me how many ethnic minority LibDem MPs there are, Mark.
Now Sunil , you are really getting desperate in justifying Conservative policy to yourself . Perhaps your attitude may change when you are subjected to the same sort of harassment as Max .
I'm not justifying any kind of racism, but do you think the LibDems are racist in not selecting enough ethnic parliamentary candidates? Or is there some other underlying reason for the lack of ethnic LibDem MPs?
We have had plenty of ethnic parliamentary candidates but not in winnable seats . The underlying reason is clearly that we have fewer MPs the majority of whom are local to their seats .
Yes, because of course there are no ethnic minorities in places like Bradford East to choose from. In any case, isn't saying "most of our candidates in winnable seats are local [and have delivered Focus leaflets for 20 years]" another way of ensuring the Lib Dem ethnic minority MP count is reduced?
Sunil - Because if Cameron wins a majority and does not give a referendum his backbenchers would oust him, but you are still ignoring the key point on overseas aid
Comments
Another mess inherited from New Labour:
"Mandarins face sack after refusing to answer tax questions
Exclusive: More than 100 senior civil servants employed 'off-payroll' are refusing to reveal how much tax they pay, in defiance of orders from the Treasury."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10219526/Mandarins-face-sack-after-refusing-to-answer-tax-questions.html
The FT is left of centre, it qualifies under "do bears shit in the woods". I couldn't give a toss what the FT writes, or what any paper writes, I'll make up my own mind thanks.
Links to similar comments?
With names?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mZmcyHpG31A
Iain Dale has comprehensively shown how those eager to make a quick political point tend to make claims based on inadequate evidence.
On ID cards, I support a foreign national registration card, similar to that required in other countries, e.g as in Japan and Russia whose requirements we have discussed at length over the past two days.
In the event that a law enforcement official were to inquire of a "non-white" UK national as to their nationality and residency status, and given that such inquiry was lawful, my recommendation would be to answer the questions quickly and politely and, if required, produce whatever corroborating evidence you may have about you and/or to provide whatever information may be useful and pertinent to the officer in the conduct of his inquiry.
Let's move off immigration offences in order to provide a less politically charged example.
If the police had reasonable suspicion that a group of people were planning to commit an offence, involving let's say the possession of lethal knives, and that this group was due to congregate at a known rallying point using the underground, then it would be quite reasonable for the Met to mount a stop and search operation at relevant stations.
If the group were known to be, say, EDL members and supporters, then I would expect the Police to stop and search more white skinned 'suspects' than those who were non-white. If it were a counter EDL rally of muslim extremists then I would expect the police to adopt the opposite profiling tactics.
Is this not reasonable?
IIRC The LDs have more men with knighthoods than they have female MPs.
The abomination.
Soon to be carried out.
It would be nice to put this down to political expediency but one wonders what lies at the heart of the LD organisation.
No wonder there is no ready replacement for NC. His years at Westminster (School) obviously taught him the value of respecting those from around the world.
"Quite an endorsement for the PM." says BBC's Stratton
I do think it is reasonable that a foreign national residing in the UK should be required to provide documentary evidence of legal status upon reasonable demand.
A lot of detail needed here, but I am content, at this stage, merely to state the principle.
....so no names....no links....just a smear.....
How's your 'Rennard non-story' going, by the way?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/08/02/jim-messina-signs-on-as-campaign-adviser-to-conservatives-in-britain/
If they were going to do something like this then why not 10 carefully thought-out raids on known illegal immigrant workplaces (please don't tell me these are unknown)? Much better all round.
The execution is the issue I have with this, not the broader political intent.
Personally I dont think requiring UK nationals to show papers on demand will fly but good luck to you if you think differently.
I fear he would be a poor companion at a Bullingdon Club dinner.
Tactically it may have been right to allow a short August thunderstorm to clear the air, then let Dave return from his holidays to cancel both the van and the underground stop and snatch ops.
Outflanking UKIP on the right and Labour on the left seems to be the new campaign tactics.
The last one I saw was held in a seedy looking badly lit hotel basement with 200 bored looking blokes. I wish the Parly channel would show some old party conferences/PPBs on the weekend/during recess - it'd be a hoot!
BTW have you worked out how diverse your neighbourhood is? Can you even name your local council area?
(sorry c*cked up the formatting)
I agree although I don't think they are looking to outflank UKIP on the right - they are forcing UKIP to be explicit about their immigration policies. They condemn a (clumsy) attempt to address illegals so where does that leave them in the public perception of UKIP = anti-immigrant?
And yes I also agree that Dave will show a firm hand when he returns, we can all draft the statement "on reflection there are more efficient ways of addressing a problem that we know exists and we are working hard, etc, etc, blah, blah".
My only explanation (assuming Lynton had full control) was that he knew it would cause a stink and he believes that that is the only way to achieve longevity so that the national subconscious will, by 2015 and forgetting this incident, identify the Tories as "right" on illegal immigrants, Labour wrong and UKIP as having bottled it.
Ooo, just like that, tim!
Can ethnic LD parliamentary candidates not be local to their seats?
The rest of the population are saying Erm, they're here illegally, not paying tax, are using the NHS and most of them are probably from Africa and Asia so probably aren't white - what's the fuss about?
Calling people racists for making perfectly reasonable assumptions is very 2010. I'm not cowed by it.
"Arnie Graf sounds like a lovely, genuine, moral man. He’s been involved in some truly inspiring campaigns and deserves heartfelt applause for his stands on everything from civil rights to low pay.
He should also be immediately shuffled out of the Labour party’s electoral and organising thinking, never to be heard of again until some point after the 2015 election.
Heartless? Unpleasant? Yes. But also necessary.
Right now, the Tory party are relentlessly focussed. You can feel it in eery press release and tweet.
They’re trying to drag Labour into elephant traps on welfare, immigration and taxation, traps that can be used, come 2015, to rally Tory minded voters in the polls.
They’re defining Ed Miliband as weak and a bit useless, in contrast to David Cameron.
They’re pushing out a message on growth, on the economy which is essentially a chorus of: “I was right and you were wrong, I’m going to sing the ‘I was right‘ song” (repeat).
I’d also suspect they are busy trying to raise an absolute fortune for the election campaign.
There are lots of flaws with this strategy. But it is a strategy."
Mark Ferguson @Markfergusonuk
Want to tell @BarackObama that you're unhappy with @Messina2012 working for a conservative party of austerity? Email support@BarackObama.com
Looks like Pbers (excluding the above) don't fit the Crosby view of what a British Tory is like.
Bravo!
A racist lefty like yourself thinks he knows best, thinks he knows what the brown man should be "offended" by?
I was pleased to flush out from the artful dodger, Edmondo (albeit with the assistance of duGarbandier) that Japan has an Alien Registration Card carrying requirement for foreign nationals without a similar National ID card carrying requirement for Japanese citizens.
The vast majority of illegal immigrants will be identified when they come into contact with the regulated economy and state service: e.g. through hospitalisation, gp registration, rental agreements, employment contracts etc. This is where the UKBA is likely to concentrate its major efforts in order to be effective and efficient.
'Stop and search' or casual contact will occur but only as a small proportion of overall law enforcement activity, It is likely to occur co-incidentally to other police operations, say a motoring offence intervention or, say, an police intervention into a brawl at a bar etc.
On such occasions, a police officer (or other appropriate official) may develop a reasonable suspicion that one or more of the persons involved in the primary incident may have committed a crime by breaking immigration law.
A simple procedure is needed whereby documentary evidence of legal residency can be quickly established. The submission and validation of a foreign national ID card would be quickest and least painful option for all involved when the individual's status is lawful.
For those who are UK citizens, the interrogating officer will merely ask a series of questions which are designed to prove or disprove a reasonable suspicion. Bank cards, driving licences, car registration documents, library cards, employer ID cards, third party endorsement, addresses and telephone numbers are all data than could be considered in such an evaluation.
In well over 90% of cases the legitimate status of UK nationals can be quickly and relatively painlessly established beyond reasonable doubt on the spot. For the exceptions, there would need to be a follow up. Where address, identity and anchor (e.g. employment) are reliable this can be done on a 'driving licence' producer basis. In the very rare cases where there is insufficient data, or where the officer has reasonable suspicion that the information furnished is incorrect or fraudulent, then an 'accompany suspect to documents' approach may be needed.
I can't see the above not working in practice.
At least the coalition are not conducting the random spot checks that Labour did - progress surely?
You can't be shy of Labour's record, surely?
do tell us how this worked when Labour were doing it.....
Fitalass! It was Corporal Jones and his catchprase was "Don't panic!"
Then there wouldn't be so much time wasted chasing people who have already left.
Again, to repeat myself, some people have a vested interest in not counting people leaving the country, though, because it stops them just making up the figures.
And then he launches into a Twitter campaign intended to intimidate Mr Messina using THE PRESIDENT OF THE USA as leverage!
Labour have spent all week bitching about trolls and intimidation on Twitter and then he does this?!
It's laughable and frightening at the same time.
But Plato and Topping both add further valid reasons for the timing and additional plausible explanations for the tactics.
We all know what is going on is coarse and brutal but the jury is out on whether it will be politically effective.
The anguish of @Markfergusonuk's tweets have got to be worth whatever they have paid Jim Messina.
I know I was against it.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2005/nov/07/uksecurity.terrorism
Captain Mainwaring was a more decisive and reassuring leader than Ed Miliband.
Jones was a Lance-Corporal.
He's lost his mind this evening. Epically stupid.
I am not convinced a National ID card scheme is necessary, but an accessible database of visa grants would greatly help verification operations. I have in mind the simplicity and speed of a DVLA check.
It should be no surprise that the US has no official National ID card but uses state driving licence systems as a surrogate. It is quite common for those who don't have a car or drive to apply for a 'non-drivers' driving licence solely for the purpose of using it for identification purposes.
Summer lethargy is not a good look for Labour right now
Silly season can be a time of opportunity for dynamic politicians. Where is the opposition's fighting spirit?
http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/07/labours-summer-lethargy-does-not-inspire-confidence
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/08/02/jim-messina-signs-on-as-campaign-adviser-to-conservatives-in-britain/
So Tories have hired Crosby AND Messina. Who shld run Labour campaign? Only one choice. Send for Peter Mandelson, the best in the business
lol
Nasty tactics.