Can some one tell me when the poll was done please ?
It was done yesterday, Tyke. Polling was carried out a small number of London underground stations.
Pre-screening of the sample group was carried out by refererence to Roger's Pantone colour swatches.
The interviews were supervised by an enforcement officer from Worthing wearing an SS Uniform. A businessman from Surbiton in West South London was seen to be repeatedly wheeling the Royal Festival Hall statue of Nelson Mandela past the focus group shouting:
"He has a pass. Interview him".
Distortions to the sample were introduced when an excitable software gaming engineer spent three hours waiting to refuse to be interviewed.
A wise Irish actuary, sitting at a nearly latte only coffee bar observed wryly:
"If you think this is bad, you should have seen what happened under the last lot."
I was stopped and questioned by an immigration officer doing spot checks at East Midlands airport a couple of years ago and it wasn't a nice experience.
What if I told you, Surby baby, that I have actually been stopped by the Feds four times over the last five years? However, I was only asked to let them search my bag once - ah, this was a "random" spot check outside a tube station way back in 2008. The last time was at the beginning of 2012, way out in the sticks at Oxford station - off-duty BTP Fed saw me taking pix down the line at Didcot station and asked me why. Fortunately he believed me when I told him it was for a friend's rail website!:
Immigration spot checks at railway stations are “not the British way of doing things'
Max, it's not canny its cowardly. What IS the British way?
Farage and anybody else who sets a high priority on getting rid of illegals are simply too ch8ckensh*t to tell the voters there isn't a clean and nice way of doing this and therefore its basically impossible.
The British way is to treat everyone with respect, and not like criminals. The British way is to presume innocence, rather than guilt.
.@Nigel_Farage says immigration spot checks at railway stations are “not the British way of doing things". @SkyNews
Ha ha, Crosby delivers Cameron to Farage on a plate
Wrong. You couldn't in fact be more wrong. Which is untypical.
It's the perfect trap which Farage stepped into. Let's not forget that UKIP is PRECISELY the party that should be cheering this from the hilltops. So Crosby said: ok guys let's see what you've got.
If an anti-immigration party doesn't even support measures to stop, um, immigration, then what is it? It is nothing.
Another one to plant in the vague memory of voters come 2015. When they think about immigration it will be: "yes well when it came down to it UKIP didn't even support the vans, for heaven's sake, at least the Tories tried to do something".
I don't know what is the answer on spot checks, I feel for max and his point of view but taffy as brought a lot of great points up on this,they is no easy answers.
I posted this elsewhere last night. Didn't realise a poll would come out so soon to prove the point:
There are three major obstacles for the Conservatives to win the next election: 1 – First Past the Post – The Conservatives blew one of their big chances by shafting the Lib Dems over Lords reform. If they would have agreed to it, [the boundary review would have gone through] and would have made their election easier.To gain a majority the Consevatives need (depending who you listen to) anything from an 5% to 8% lead whilst Labour (again depending who you listen to) only need a 2 to 4 % lead. 2. The Lib Dem switchers once the coalition was formed. These have attached themselves limpet like to the Labour Party. I actually know quite a few of them and one is a close friend. He doesn’t particularly like politics and if he is sat amongst a group talking about it will go glossy eyed and sometimes drop the hint by yawning. That is until you mention two words “Nick” and “Clegg”, he will then more or less take over the conversation with an expletive filled rant about him and explain how he will never vote Lib Dem again and is voting Labour. He like many feels like they were personally lied to at the last election with Nick’s “new politics” and I could quite imagine they would vote Labour no matter who their leader was. It is no great endorsement of Ed Miliband but many of the switchers want revenge and cannot wait until 2015. You only have to look at the range of the Labour vote for the last few years. It doesn’t go below 36% (except the odd moe poll) or above 40%, whilst the Conservative votes has had higher peaks and troughs. 3 – UKIP – The UKIP vote may be decreasing at the moment but the fact that as the UKIP percentage decreases the Conservative one rises, it kills the argument that UKIP were effecting both Labour and the Conservatives similarly. Also, UKIP percentages have risen as elections have come along, and there is no bigger oxygen for their party than next years Euro election (which they are still favourite at the bookies to win the popular vote) so will see their vote rise again, which will have a negative effect for the Conservative Party. Yes it may fall again afterwards, however, if it their percentage continues in the same form, it will rise again in 2015.
Continued - The rise of UKIP has altered the whole spectrum for the Conservative Party. In years gone by they would move towards the centre to try and take some Lib Dem votes. Now they have had to move rightwards to win back the UKIP vote, which then alienates the non-orange book Lib Dems(who have up to now stuck with their party) who could then turn to Labour, to in their eyes, prevent a right wing Tory government. So all in all, without even mentioning governing parties struggle to increase their percentage, the Conservative Party could not win a majority against a party that had been in for 13 years and they couldn’t beat a party with Gordon Brown at the helm, who was very unpopular, everything points towards the likelihood of there being a Conservative majority in 2015 very very slim indeed.
.@Nigel_Farage says immigration spot checks at railway stations are “not the British way of doing things". @SkyNews
Ha ha, Crosby delivers Cameron to Farage on a plate
Wrong. You couldn't in fact be more wrong. Which is untypical.
It's the perfect trap which Farage stepped into. Let's not forget that UKIP is PRECISELY the party that should be cheering this from the hilltops. So Crosby said: ok guys let's see what you've got.
If an anti-immigration party doesn't even support measures to stop, um, immigration, then what is it? It is nothing.
Another one to plant in the vague memory of voters come 2015. When they think about immigration it will be: "yes well when it came down to it UKIP didn't even support the vans, for heaven's sake, at least the Tories tried to do something".
Go Lynton.
Spot checks won't stop immigration, they're a stunt, as is the van.They aren't even an efficient way of targeting illegals.
Cameron wants to let 29 million Bulgarians and Romanians in, thats the response from UKIP, not "Oh your Toytown van and amateur Gauleiter posing is so scary we must support it"
Tim,get the facts right,labour signed off free movement for 29 million Bulgarians and Romanians,get it right tim.
That is why I am convinced that this is a news creating exercise. There must be polling evidence for the Tories to embark on this high risk strategy. UKIP must be hurting them in marginals. Otherwise, this does not make any electoral sense. Lot of centrist voters will be appalled by this.
Glad to see, a lot of sensible Tories are coming out against this. Last night and this morning, it was the other crowd. What's wrong with it brigade !
To be honest, I think there's a bit of politicians getting too much of the credit and too much of the blame here. Quite what prompted the operation I don't know but I would be extremely surprised if Theresa May had ordered it on the basis of some polling. For one thing, the police would rightly kick up stink if politicians started ordering individual operations, particularly ones of questionable legality whose basis for operating is arguably racist; for another, even if a politician did, I'm not sure the Home Sec has that sort of authority any more (isn't it the London Mayor who's effectively PCC for London?); thirdly, even if the police were willing to be used, and even if the HS was capable of instructing it, May doesn't strike me as the sort of politician who would.
This seems more like the kind of operation designed by some middle-ranking police officer with targets to hit.
.@Nigel_Farage says immigration spot checks at railway stations are “not the British way of doing things". @SkyNews
Ha ha, Crosby delivers Cameron to Farage on a plate
Wrong. You couldn't in fact be more wrong. Which is untypical.
It's the perfect trap which Farage stepped into. Let's not forget that UKIP is PRECISELY the party that should be cheering this from the hilltops. So Crosby said: ok guys let's see what you've got.
If an anti-immigration party doesn't even support measures to stop, um, immigration, then what is it? It is nothing.
Another one to plant in the vague memory of voters come 2015. When they think about immigration it will be: "yes well when it came down to it UKIP didn't even support the vans, for heaven's sake, at least the Tories tried to do something".
Go Lynton.
Spot checks won't stop immigration, they're a stunt, as is the van.They aren't even an efficient way of targeting illegals.
Cameron wants to let 29 million Bulgarians and Romanians in, thats the response from UKIP, not "Oh your Toytown van and amateur Gauleiter posing is so scary we must support it"
Well we both know the last thing these spot checks are designed to do is stop immigration. Someone esle pointed out that a far more targeted campaign is needed for that, starting at gang masters, et al.
This is to bring up and then dismiss the worry that the Cons aren't looking at immigration. Of course they are not looking at immigration but it's a blunt tool that, at GE time, will very vaguely resonate with right-leaning voters in the right way.
Worrying about 29 million Romanians or however many Farage thinks are on their way just illustrates his naivety. Most people understand the pragmatism involved in intra-EU immigration.
.@Nigel_Farage says immigration spot checks at railway stations are “not the British way of doing things". @SkyNews
Ha ha, Crosby delivers Cameron to Farage on a plate
Wrong. You couldn't in fact be more wrong. Which is untypical.
It's the perfect trap which Farage stepped into. Let's not forget that UKIP is PRECISELY the party that should be cheering this from the hilltops. So Crosby said: ok guys let's see what you've got.
If an anti-immigration party doesn't even support measures to stop, um, immigration, then what is it? It is nothing.
Another one to plant in the vague memory of voters come 2015. When they think about immigration it will be: "yes well when it came down to it UKIP didn't even support the vans, for heaven's sake, at least the Tories tried to do something".
Go Lynton.
Spot checks won't stop immigration, they're a stunt, as is the van.They aren't even an efficient way of targeting illegals.
Cameron wants to let 29 million Bulgarians and Romanians in, thats the response from UKIP, not "Oh your Toytown van and amateur Gauleiter posing is so scary we must support it"
Tim,get the facts right,labour signed off free movement for 29 million Bulgarians and Romanians,get it right tim.
All three main parties support free movement, thats the fact.
And the tories wanted a holding period and that's a fact.
What if I told you, Surby baby, that I have actually been stopped by the Feds four times over the last five years? However, I was only asked to let them search my bag once - ah, this was a "random" spot check outside a tube station way back in 2008. The last time was at the beginning of 2012, way out in the sticks at Oxford station - off-duty BTP Fed saw me taking pix down the line at Didcot station and asked me why. Fortunately he believed me when I told him it was for a friend's rail website!:
That is why I am convinced that this is a news creating exercise. There must be polling evidence for the Tories to embark on this high risk strategy. UKIP must be hurting them in marginals. Otherwise, this does not make any electoral sense. Lot of centrist voters will be appalled by this.
Glad to see, a lot of sensible Tories are coming out against this. Last night and this morning, it was the other crowd. What's wrong with it brigade !
To be honest, I think there's a bit of politicians getting too much of the credit and too much of the blame here. Quite what prompted the operation I don't know but I would be extremely surprised if Theresa May had ordered it on the basis of some polling. For one thing, the police would rightly kick up stink if politicians started ordering individual operations, particularly ones of questionable legality whose basis for operating is arguably racist; for another, even if a politician did, I'm not sure the Home Sec has that sort of authority any more (isn't it the London Mayor who's effectively PCC for London?); thirdly, even if the police were willing to be used, and even if the HS was capable of instructing it, May doesn't strike me as the sort of politician who would.
This seems more like the kind of operation designed by some middle-ranking police officer with targets to hit.
Is Theresa May on Twitter? It might be a useful way to keep track of what the government department she's in charge of is doing.
''The authorities should be dealing with illegal immigrants. What they should not be doing is working on the basis that anyone with a dusky skin colour should have to prove they're not before being allowed on their lawful business.''
David, I often agree with your posts, in this case you want the government to make an omelette, just so long as they don;t break any eggs.
I reckon trawls are as successful as anything else would be, but the fact is they are possibly illegal and by what we've heard today pretty distasteful.
The fact is there probably isn't any way of getting rid of illegals successfully without offending your delicate sensibilities in the process.
So why not just stop urging the government to try??
Illegals shouldn't be here in the first place for any number of reasons. I've no problem with properly regulated immigration but there does have to be proper regulation.
As for the omellette and eggs argument, I very much doubt that "trawls are as successful as anything else would be" at finding illegal immigrants. I suspect that such people are well adept at avoiding the authorities carrying out these kind of exercises.
More effective is targetted work using proper investigative techniques. The authorities must come into contact with these people from time to time, from hospitals to police to councils to tax authorities to visa licensing to the DVLA and so on. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of investigators to do some cross-referencing.
Lord Ashcroft not impressed with Chairman Shapps: "What is the most difficult. Robbing Fort Knox or obtaining the membership numbers of the Conservative Party?"
What if I told you, Surby baby, that I have actually been stopped by the Feds four times over the last five years? However, I was only asked to let them search my bag once - ah, this was a "random" spot check outside a tube station way back in 2008. The last time was at the beginning of 2012, way out in the sticks at Oxford station - off-duty BTP Fed saw me taking pix down the line at Didcot station and asked me why. Fortunately he believed me when I told him it was for a friend's rail website!:
What if I told you, Surby baby, that I have actually been stopped by the Feds four times over the last five years? However, I was only asked to let them search my bag once - ah, this was a "random" spot check outside a tube station way back in 2008. The last time was at the beginning of 2012, way out in the sticks at Oxford station - off-duty BTP Fed saw me taking pix down the line at Didcot station and asked me why. Fortunately he believed me when I told him it was for a friend's rail website!:
The vans and spot checks are creepy and Orwellian.
Any party that wants to be tough on immigration should be ruthlessly cutting down on the number of immigrants entering the country in the first place.
This has echoes of the "what shall we do with drug addicts?" argument... Stop them taking drugs in the first place rather than worry about what to do with the junkies would be my approach
What if I told you, Surby baby, that I have actually been stopped by the Feds four times over the last five years? However, I was only asked to let them search my bag once - ah, this was a "random" spot check outside a tube station way back in 2008. The last time was at the beginning of 2012, way out in the sticks at Oxford station - off-duty BTP Fed saw me taking pix down the line at Didcot station and asked me why. Fortunately he believed me when I told him it was for a friend's rail website!:
What if I told you, Surby baby, that I have actually been stopped by the Feds four times over the last five years? However, I was only asked to let them search my bag once - ah, this was a "random" spot check outside a tube station way back in 2008. The last time was at the beginning of 2012, way out in the sticks at Oxford station - off-duty BTP Fed saw me taking pix down the line at Didcot station and asked me why. Fortunately he believed me when I told him it was for a friend's rail website!:
What if I told you, Surby baby, that I have actually been stopped by the Feds four times over the last five years? However, I was only asked to let them search my bag once - ah, this was a "random" spot check outside a tube station way back in 2008. The last time was at the beginning of 2012, way out in the sticks at Oxford station - off-duty BTP Fed saw me taking pix down the line at Didcot station and asked me why. Fortunately he believed me when I told him it was for a friend's rail website!:
What if I told you, Surby baby, that I have actually been stopped by the Feds four times over the last five years? However, I was only asked to let them search my bag once - ah, this was a "random" spot check outside a tube station way back in 2008. The last time was at the beginning of 2012, way out in the sticks at Oxford station - off-duty BTP Fed saw me taking pix down the line at Didcot station and asked me why. Fortunately he believed me when I told him it was for a friend's rail website!:
What if I told you, Surby baby, that I have actually been stopped by the Feds four times over the last five years? However, I was only asked to let them search my bag once - ah, this was a "random" spot check outside a tube station way back in 2008. The last time was at the beginning of 2012, way out in the sticks at Oxford station - off-duty BTP Fed saw me taking pix down the line at Didcot station and asked me why. Fortunately he believed me when I told him it was for a friend's rail website!:
''Any party that wants to be tough on immigration should be ruthlessly cutting down on the number of immigrants entering the country in the first place.''
In other words the government should go back in time to when there were fewer immigrants.
We are where we are. Nobody liked Labour's open door policies but the fact is there are half a million people here who shouldn't be.
Closing the borders won;t alter that fact. pulling out of Europe won't. Imagining we are in 1965 won't.
Trawling crowds might, along with a host of other measures, but you're too squeamish to countenance it.
Personally I think we give up chasing those who are here because the means don;t justify the ends.
I do hope Cameron sends as many cameramen to his next Balti Date Night as he did the last.
There's a curry mile just down the road from the G-Mex, maybe he should take a walk down it when the Tory conference is in Manchester. Holding hands and pointing at the brown people.
Shall we have a bet that you can't tell us the percent of brown people living in your local area, tim?
When asked Do You Know Who I Am? My favorite response is to ask the nurse to call the psychiatrist, "This poor man doesn't know who he is, we must get him some help!"
I do hope Cameron sends as many cameramen to his next Balti Date Night as he did the last.
There's a curry mile just down the road from the G-Mex, maybe he should take a walk down it when the Tory conference is in Manchester. Holding hands and pointing at the brown people.
Curry mile?... Balti? ... Date Night? ... G-Mex? ... Manchester?
A blank look in answer to those fist five questions means you don't have to produce your passport.
DavidL - what you could do, if you feel like it, would be to write to your MP (if it's a Conservative)
Nick, have you forgotten that I live in Scotland? Loss of support from people like me might risk their deposit I suppose. I am thinking about a letter. I really don't like this. So much good work undone. Bad politics as well as immoral.
Good for you. Perhaps a letter to the Telegraph or Times? If it's short there's a good chance they'd print it - the main objective of Letters Editors is stirring up debate. You might have to put up with some annoying reader comments online, but if you minded what anonymous people said about you, you wouldn't be here. You could quite fairly point out that Labour has done unpleasant things too, but say that it risks reminding good Conservatives like you why it may sometimes be worth voting LibDem.
I guarantee a shiver down the right spines. (And of course I have an interest - but I'd say the same if Labour embraced the policy tomorrow. There's a reason why I refused to be Phil Woolas's PPS.)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you identified as a libertarian?
I'm confused how you can reconcile that with your comments on racial profiling FPT.
I'm genuinely interested.
Plato is a Liberatrian when it suits her. Labour snooping is bad. The Tories doing it , not so bad !
Whereas you find immigration raids at tube stations appalling when they happen under the Tories but pretend they never happened when Labour was in Government. It's amazing what tricks we can play on our own minds.
I do not recall such checks in the past, I amy have been abroad at the time. In any case, they were withdrawn , presumably because many in the Labour party couldn't stomach it. Probably some ultra Blairite initiative like that appallng candidate in Saddleworth.
They did happen under Labour. They were not withdrawn by Labour. They were forced to stop random operations in certain places at certain times but operations continued all the time Labour was in power including while you were a member. Comparing the Tories to apartheid era South African governments for doing precisely the same thing the party you are a member of did is a bit rich.
"I think we can now close down pb, as I have finished political debate for all time." See you then, close the door on the way out.
DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM???
You have to be driving a Merc to ask that question, Sean.
A souped up Mini Cooper doesn't qualify.
The question actually works disturbingly well: when you are a Sunday Times travel journo.
I was in some horrible overpriced German hotel last year, in Bavaria, which advertised itself as a four star but couldn't even be arsed to bring me a sandwich on room service. The bar never opened, staff were dismissive, throwing gherkins at elderly tourists, etc. I was paying for myself so I decided to complain.
The manager was magnificently contemptuous of me to begin with "this is the best hotel in town, get lost you English pig dog" -so I wheeled out the big gun: DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?- I am a Sunday Times travel journalist, I can crush you, you festering German swine, with one paragraph!!!
I proved my credentials by showing him my stuff online.
The transformation was marvellous. He crumbled instantly, and refused to let me pay for my room, let alone dinner. He literally grovelled. Then he said - with pseudo-Basil Fawlty surrealism - yes this hotel is rubbish there's a much better one down the road.
It's not something I do every day, but, just occasionally, saying DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM (or, strictly speaking, DO YOU KNOW WHO I WORK FOR) can be brilliantly effective and horribly gratifying. Heh.
Hehe yep. A BBC pass works in the same way I expect a UK passport used to, with Her Majesty requesting and demanding this and that...
I do hope Cameron sends as many cameramen to his next Balti Date Night as he did the last.
There's a curry mile just down the road from the G-Mex, maybe he should take a walk down it when the Tory conference is in Manchester. Holding hands and pointing at the brown people.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you identified as a libertarian?
I'm confused how you can reconcile that with your comments on racial profiling FPT.
I'm genuinely interested.
Plato is a Liberatrian when it suits her. Labour snooping is bad. The Tories doing it , not so bad !
Whereas you find immigration raids at tube stations appalling when they happen under the Tories but pretend they never happened when Labour was in Government. It's amazing what tricks we can play on our own minds.
I do not recall such checks in the past, I amy have been abroad at the time. In any case, they were withdrawn , presumably because many in the Labour party couldn't stomach it. Probably some ultra Blairite initiative like that appallng candidate in Saddleworth.
They did happen under Labour. They were not withdrawn by Labour. They were forced to stop random operations in certain places at certain times but operations continued all the time Labour was in power including while you were a member. Comparing the Tories to apartheid era South African governments for doing precisely the same thing the party you are a member of did is a bit rich.
Nonsense, Neil! You know full well that only the Tories can be racist!
''Any party that wants to be tough on immigration should be ruthlessly cutting down on the number of immigrants entering the country in the first place.''
In other words the government should go back in time to when there were fewer immigrants.
We are where we are. Nobody liked Labour's open door policies but the fact is there are half a million people here who shouldn't be.
Closing the borders won;t alter that fact. pulling out of Europe won't. Imagining we are in 1965 won't.
Trawling crowds might, along with a host of other measures, but you're too squeamish to countenance it.
Personally I think we give up chasing those who are here because the means don;t justify the ends.
Like I said in the last thread, I am not sure what is best to do.
I am surprised so many people on here are so sure.
Maybe they're just sure they don't like their political opponents?
I probably agree that chasing illegals is pretty futile. If the police, or whoever it is, stumble across some along the way then deport them, if they're here and aren't found out, what you gonna do?
DavidL - what you could do, if you feel like it, would be to write to your MP (if it's a Conservative)
Nick, have you forgotten that I live in Scotland? Loss of support from people like me might risk their deposit I suppose. I am thinking about a letter. I really don't like this. So much good work undone. Bad politics as well as immoral.
There's a reason why I refused to be Phil Woolas's PPS.)
Good for you! The mystery remains why Ed decided to appoint him to the Immigration brief - when presumably he was in possession of the same information as you and the New Statesman?
A friend of mine was stopped at Dagenham yesterday. It is happening - carry your passport to avoid hassle...
Dont do that - calmly explain to the UKBA officials that you are not required to answer their questions and that as you have other places to be you will be off thank you very much.
Danny Alexander reveals he "could have been a blue".
Do we believe him?
Could have been a blue ? What is he now ? Having said that, his recounting of his playing days in Scottish cricket was enjoyable. Got to give him credit for facing Patrick Patterson and lasting 3 balls !
Just saying that I've been stopped (albeit for different reasons) in the past. Have you ever been stopped by the police, Mark?
I was once stopped by a police car - for driving too slowly. I was returning home on a badly-lit road in Derbyshire and uneasy about losing my way, so I was doing about 20. A police car flashed me down and the copper said they often found that people who were drunk drove unnaturally slowly. The phrase "You can't bloody win" did cross my mind, especially when he conceded that I appeared to be sober and admitted, with a grin, that he knew I was an MP. Another MP had been found the previous week to be carrying pot in his car, and he obviously hoped to add to the score.
"I think we can now close down pb, as I have finished political debate for all time." See you then, close the door on the way out.
DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM???
You have to be driving a Merc to ask that question, Sean.
A souped up Mini Cooper doesn't qualify.
The question actually works disturbingly well: when you are a Sunday Times travel journo.
I was in some horrible overpriced German hotel last year, in Bavaria, which advertised itself as a four star but couldn't even be arsed to bring me a sandwich on room service. The bar never opened, staff were dismissive, throwing gherkins at elderly tourists, etc. I was paying for myself so I decided to complain.
The manager was magnificently contemptuous of me to begin with "this is the best hotel in town, get lost you English pig dog" -so I wheeled out the big gun: DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?- I am a Sunday Times travel journalist, I can crush you, you festering German swine, with one paragraph!!!
I proved my credentials by showing him my stuff online.
The transformation was marvellous. He crumbled instantly, and refused to let me pay for my room, let alone dinner. He literally grovelled. Then he said - with pseudo-Basil Fawlty surrealism - yes this hotel is rubbish there's a much better one down the road.
It's not something I do every day, but, just occasionally, saying DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM (or, strictly speaking, DO YOU KNOW WHO I WORK FOR) can be brilliantly effective and horribly gratifying. Heh.
Naughty boy, Sean. You shouldn't be admitting that online. It is against the code of conduct for journalists.
It is not the admission of guilt that will get you into trouble. It is blowing the gag for all your fellow travel writers!
If I were the German hotelier I would have had room service deliver you a steak with a fried egg on top: Bavaria's finest cuisine.
DavidL - what you could do, if you feel like it, would be to write to your MP (if it's a Conservative)
Nick, have you forgotten that I live in Scotland? Loss of support from people like me might risk their deposit I suppose. I am thinking about a letter. I really don't like this. So much good work undone. Bad politics as well as immoral.
There's a reason why I refused to be Phil Woolas's PPS.)
Good for you! The mystery remains why Ed decided to appoint him to the Immigration brief
As the current episode from Cameron and May's mob shows, our top politicians have a strange belief that the British electorate likes their immigration policy tinged with a bit of nasty authoritarian racism.
A friend of mine was stopped at Dagenham yesterday. It is happening - carry your passport to avoid hassle...
Dont do that - calmly explain to the UKBA officials that you are not required to answer their questions and that as you have other places to be you will be off thank you very much.
Exactly. For good measure you can ask to see their warrant card. If they start getting sniffy ask them what grounds they have for asking you ('routine enquiries' does not cut it - they need to have 'reasonable suspicion' that you are of interest to the UKBA - ask what it is). You can then tell them that you decline to be interviewed and walk off - if they detain you - they are committing an offence.....
The police stopped my car a couple of times. Sometimes they just stand at the corner of the street and stop cars at random. I think to justify their salary. They ask for car's documents, they take them, go on their car, check something not clear, give you back and say bye bye. Ah, once they reminded me my car insurance was about to expire.
Why I find it surprising that people are looking at these populist immigration activities (eg the silly vans and these checks at tube stations) in a party political way is that it is clearly not party political in a simple way.
Yes there is a Tory tendency that likes to be seen as tough on immigration. Particularly if they are Home Office ministers at the time. But there are plenty of anti-ID card Tories who are horrified at what is going on (for ideological and practical reasons).
Similarly there is a strong anti-racist tendency in the Labour party who cant abide these tactics. There are liberals in the Labour party too. But there are populists in that party as well and they also tend to end up in the Home Office doing precisely the same things (and more).
It is UKIP voters that the recent Tory activities are chasing but as Farage has shown there is a tendency in that party (if, perhaps I am being unfair, not so much amongst its supporters) who defend old fashioned British tendencies that these kind of things offend.
The Lib Dems dont appear to have their hands dirty on this and clearly have a strong liberal tradition that is horrified by it.
Just a few words on the Thetford East result last night.Significant in moving Labour into 2nd place on Norfolk County behind the Tories and in establishing a positive local campaign involving a good,hard-working candidate to beat Ukip in their strongest part of the country.The model will be very useful in combatting them in the council elections next year.Currently they are a kind of silent partner in a cross party anti-Tory Rainbow Alliance after a particularly disastrous Tory administration run by the turnip taliban.The Greens ,with 1 Independent,hold the balance of power.The committee chairs and leader are Labour/LibDem but further uncertainty keeps cropping up as councillors keep party-hopping. Interesting times but gradual systemic progress for Labour and the shine coming off for Ukip.
Just saying that I've been stopped (albeit for different reasons) in the past. Have you ever been stopped by the police, Mark?
I was once stopped by a police car - for driving too slowly. I was returning home on a badly-lit road in Derbyshire and uneasy about losing my way, so I was doing about 20. A police car flashed me down and the copper said they often found that people who were drunk drove unnaturally slowly. The phrase "You can't bloody win" did cross my mind, especially when he conceded that I appeared to be sober and admitted, with a grin, that he knew I was an MP. Another MP had been found the previous week to be carrying pot in his car, and he obviously hoped to add to the score.
Come on Nick. You've got a reputation on PB for being truthful, so don't start lying now.
I know in your shame you are trying to hide the fact, but we all know the true reason you were driving slowly.
It was not drink. It was not drugs. It was not even some lady (although there are plenty of stellar ones in the area you were in).
No, you had to get back to Nottinghamshire, and you couldn't bring yourself to leave the much better county that lies immediately to the west. You were driving slowly so you could spend more time in the county that gave us Bakewell Tarts (of all varieties), Ellen McArthur, Timothy Dalton, the jet engine, Izaak Walton, the better Darwin, Barnes Wallis, and which, if the list above is not enough, was also the cradle of the industrial revolution.
Nottinghamshire has Robin Hood. Who is actually more associated with Staffordshire, Yorkshire and... you've guessed it, Derbyshire.
(Of course when people talk of a "two-thirds majority" they actually mean winning two-thirds of the seats, which is a one-third majority over other parties).
Assuming there are political motives behind this, can anyone explain what on earth the Tories are thinking?
To me it seems they are raising the immigration issue again, but making themselves look incompetent and nasty in addressing it.
Which is surely just a gift to UKIP (who are correctly presenting themselves as sensible on the issue), and further solidifies anti-Tory sentiment amongst the key 2010 Lib-Lab group?
Must admit reading posts from some of the pb tories , Cameron would have been better describing his own party as containing fruitcakes loonies and closet racists .
''As Farage has shown there is a tendency in that party (if, perhaps I am being unfair, not so much amongst its supporters) who defend old fashioned British tendencies that these kind of things offend.''
Farage is in an entirely invidious position in my view. In practice I don;t think you can oust illegal immigrants who are already here without those old fashioned British tendencies going out the window.
Which is why I don;t think we should try.
We might be able to stop new immigrants in, but that's an entirely different question.
They'll be calling the Tories fruit-loops next. But I must say they're doing a good job of convincing me that they're not a bunch of racists.
As for Josiah's outrageous Derbyshirism, would anyone really eat a Bakewell tart if they hadn't been indoctrinated into it as a sadly impressionable child? If Derbyshire had invented Sachertorte, I could understand his pride.
Mind you, I remember soon after selection in 1995 encountering mushy peas for the first time. I said blithely to my enthusiastic helpers that it was very honest of the restaurant to admit to it. I did get some odd looks, but it wasn't until months later that someone took me aside and explained quietly that in Nottinghamshire peas are SUPPOSED to be mushy. Euuu. I had a lot to learn.
Comments
Pre-screening of the sample group was carried out by refererence to Roger's Pantone colour swatches.
The interviews were supervised by an enforcement officer from Worthing wearing an SS Uniform. A businessman from Surbiton in West South London was seen to be repeatedly wheeling the Royal Festival Hall statue of Nelson Mandela past the focus group shouting:
"He has a pass. Interview him".
Distortions to the sample were introduced when an excitable software gaming engineer spent three hours waiting to refuse to be interviewed.
A wise Irish actuary, sitting at a nearly latte only coffee bar observed wryly:
"If you think this is bad, you should have seen what happened under the last lot."
Farrage has this right.
It's the perfect trap which Farage stepped into. Let's not forget that UKIP is PRECISELY the party that should be cheering this from the hilltops. So Crosby said: ok guys let's see what you've got.
If an anti-immigration party doesn't even support measures to stop, um, immigration, then what is it? It is nothing.
Another one to plant in the vague memory of voters come 2015. When they think about immigration it will be: "yes well when it came down to it UKIP didn't even support the vans, for heaven's sake, at least the Tories tried to do something".
Go Lynton.
The British way is to dump the idea, declare an amnesty and start again with a new system.
There are three major obstacles for the Conservatives to win the next election:
1 – First Past the Post – The Conservatives blew one of their big chances by shafting the Lib Dems over Lords reform. If they would have agreed to it, [the boundary review would have gone through] and would have made their election easier.To gain a majority the Consevatives need (depending who you listen to) anything from an 5% to 8% lead whilst Labour (again depending who you listen to) only need a 2 to 4 % lead.
2. The Lib Dem switchers once the coalition was formed. These have attached themselves limpet like to the Labour Party. I actually know quite a few of them and one is a close friend. He doesn’t particularly like politics and if he is sat amongst a group talking about it will go glossy eyed and sometimes drop the hint by yawning. That is until you mention two words “Nick” and “Clegg”, he will then more or less take over the conversation with an expletive filled rant about him and explain how he will never vote Lib Dem again and is voting Labour. He like many feels like they were personally lied to at the last election with Nick’s “new politics” and I could quite imagine they would vote Labour no matter who their leader was. It is no great endorsement of Ed Miliband but many of the switchers want revenge and cannot wait until 2015. You only have to look at the range of the Labour vote for the last few years. It doesn’t go below 36% (except the odd moe poll) or above 40%, whilst the Conservative votes has had higher peaks and troughs.
3 – UKIP – The UKIP vote may be decreasing at the moment but the fact that as the UKIP percentage decreases the Conservative one rises, it kills the argument that UKIP were effecting both Labour and the Conservatives similarly. Also, UKIP percentages have risen as elections have come along, and there is no bigger oxygen for their party than next years Euro election (which they are still favourite at the bookies to win the popular vote) so will see their vote rise again, which will have a negative effect for the Conservative Party. Yes it may fall again afterwards, however, if it their percentage continues in the same form, it will rise again in 2015.
So all in all, without even mentioning governing parties struggle to increase their percentage, the Conservative Party could not win a majority against a party that had been in for 13 years and they couldn’t beat a party with Gordon Brown at the helm, who was very unpopular, everything points towards the likelihood of there being a Conservative majority in 2015 very very slim indeed.
This seems more like the kind of operation designed by some middle-ranking police officer with targets to hit.
This is to bring up and then dismiss the worry that the Cons aren't looking at immigration. Of course they are not looking at immigration but it's a blunt tool that, at GE time, will very vaguely resonate with right-leaning voters in the right way.
Worrying about 29 million Romanians or however many Farage thinks are on their way just illustrates his naivety. Most people understand the pragmatism involved in intra-EU immigration.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/britannias-saucy-new-pose-commemorative-2116184
However, I think there is some jumping to conclusions here about the politics.
Richard
Before jumping to conclusions about the politics, we need first to avoid jumping to conclusions about the facts.
Do you really think the operations of the Borders Agency are as reported in the Independent?
Newbury Park? No
Tottenham Court Road? No
Euston underground? No
London Euston? No
Birmingham Neustrasse? No
University (Birmingham)? No
As for the omellette and eggs argument, I very much doubt that "trawls are as successful as anything else would be" at finding illegal immigrants. I suspect that such people are well adept at avoiding the authorities carrying out these kind of exercises.
More effective is targetted work using proper investigative techniques. The authorities must come into contact with these people from time to time, from hospitals to police to councils to tax authorities to visa licensing to the DVLA and so on. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of investigators to do some cross-referencing.
Our Fracking Friends in the North
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2013/08/our-fracking-friends-in-the-north/
Well you were luckier than Max .
A friend of mine was stopped at Dagenham yesterday. It is happening - carry your passport to avoid hassle...
He's on Test Match Special in a few minutes time as the Tea Time Guest.
Any party that wants to be tough on immigration should be ruthlessly cutting down on the number of immigrants entering the country in the first place.
This has echoes of the "what shall we do with drug addicts?" argument... Stop them taking drugs in the first place rather than worry about what to do with the junkies would be my approach
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hundred_franc_note_delacroix_1993.jpg
Southall black sisters take on UKBA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pQ0_TFBVots#at=11
They needed Roger present to keep the camera steady.
A souped up Mini Cooper doesn't qualify.
My god,if I was a tory strategist,theys not alot left to work with ;-)
Do we believe him?
In other words the government should go back in time to when there were fewer immigrants.
We are where we are. Nobody liked Labour's open door policies but the fact is there are half a million people here who shouldn't be.
Closing the borders won;t alter that fact. pulling out of Europe won't. Imagining we are in 1965 won't.
Trawling crowds might, along with a host of other measures, but you're too squeamish to countenance it.
Personally I think we give up chasing those who are here because the means don;t justify the ends.
However untrue that may be, at least it's better than the "nothing wrong with it" argument of other Tories like Plato.
A blank look in answer to those fist five questions means you don't have to produce your passport.
Until recently I would have instantly said Michael Winner, but now sadly....
I guarantee a shiver down the right spines. (And of course I have an interest - but I'd say the same if Labour embraced the policy tomorrow. There's a reason why I refused to be Phil Woolas's PPS.)
I am surprised so many people on here are so sure.
Maybe they're just sure they don't like their political opponents?
I probably agree that chasing illegals is pretty futile. If the police, or whoever it is, stumble across some along the way then deport them, if they're here and aren't found out, what you gonna do?
No amnesty, no spot checks or vans either.
Or the Heisenberg physics joke:
The cop walks up to his car and asks, "Excuse me sir, do you know how fast you were going?" Heisenberg responds, "No...but I know exactly where I am!"
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2010/10/woolas-minister-lib-election
Good for you, Nick P.
It is not the admission of guilt that will get you into trouble. It is blowing the gag for all your fellow travel writers!
If I were the German hotelier I would have had room service deliver you a steak with a fried egg on top: Bavaria's finest cuisine.
"I know who you are Sir ..."
I said "Thank you Constable" and drove on ....
Did he object to the man walking in front of your car waving a flag?
home office minister mark harper says the two london immigration operations were intel lead and 'not racial profiling'
harper adds on spot checks that people approached dont have to answer questions & cant be held UNLESS officer suspects they're offender.
Yes there is a Tory tendency that likes to be seen as tough on immigration. Particularly if they are Home Office ministers at the time. But there are plenty of anti-ID card Tories who are horrified at what is going on (for ideological and practical reasons).
Similarly there is a strong anti-racist tendency in the Labour party who cant abide these tactics. There are liberals in the Labour party too. But there are populists in that party as well and they also tend to end up in the Home Office doing precisely the same things (and more).
It is UKIP voters that the recent Tory activities are chasing but as Farage has shown there is a tendency in that party (if, perhaps I am being unfair, not so much amongst its supporters) who defend old fashioned British tendencies that these kind of things offend.
The Lib Dems dont appear to have their hands dirty on this and clearly have a strong liberal tradition that is horrified by it.
http://ukip.org/newsroom/news/746-why-we-think-random-stop-and-check-immigration-operations-are-despicable
Interesting times but gradual systemic progress for Labour and the shine coming off for Ukip.
http://ukip.org/newsroom/news/746-why-we-think-random-stop-and-check-immigration-operations-are-despicable
Mark Senior has got his colouring crayons out.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BQq8XvSCUAAaOzx.jpg
I know in your shame you are trying to hide the fact, but we all know the true reason you were driving slowly.
It was not drink. It was not drugs. It was not even some lady (although there are plenty of stellar ones in the area you were in).
No, you had to get back to Nottinghamshire, and you couldn't bring yourself to leave the much better county that lies immediately to the west. You were driving slowly so you could spend more time in the county that gave us Bakewell Tarts (of all varieties), Ellen McArthur, Timothy Dalton, the jet engine, Izaak Walton, the better Darwin, Barnes Wallis, and which, if the list above is not enough, was also the cradle of the industrial revolution.
Nottinghamshire has Robin Hood. Who is actually more associated with Staffordshire, Yorkshire and... you've guessed it, Derbyshire.
I'm shocked you were going as fast as 20 ...
The number of seats needed for such a majority was 142.
They won 142:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23554443
(Of course when people talk of a "two-thirds majority" they actually mean winning two-thirds of the seats, which is a one-third majority over other parties).
To me it seems they are raising the immigration issue again, but making themselves look incompetent and nasty in addressing it.
Which is surely just a gift to UKIP (who are correctly presenting themselves as sensible on the issue), and further solidifies anti-Tory sentiment amongst the key 2010 Lib-Lab group?
http://t.co/XM8mPwusFq
Farage is in an entirely invidious position in my view. In practice I don;t think you can oust illegal immigrants who are already here without those old fashioned British tendencies going out the window.
Which is why I don;t think we should try.
We might be able to stop new immigrants in, but that's an entirely different question.
Just found radio clip with Ed Balls on wicket keeping: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00hm833
Conservatives hire @BarackObama's campaign manager @Messina2012 for UK general election team bbc.in/1bSy2P2 < #LabourCatPigeons
As for Josiah's outrageous Derbyshirism, would anyone really eat a Bakewell tart if they hadn't been indoctrinated into it as a sadly impressionable child? If Derbyshire had invented Sachertorte, I could understand his pride.
Mind you, I remember soon after selection in 1995 encountering mushy peas for the first time. I said blithely to my enthusiastic helpers that it was very honest of the restaurant to admit to it. I did get some odd looks, but it wasn't until months later that someone took me aside and explained quietly that in Nottinghamshire peas are SUPPOSED to be mushy. Euuu. I had a lot to learn.