Difficult question to answer, I am not completely sure.
I think we are now at the nub of the issue. People like the idea of expelling illegal immigrants, but they won;t countenance doing what it takes to achieve it.
And maybe politicians should make that clear.
Want illegals expelled?
Prepared for large numbers of black and brown people to be spot checked by burly white coppers?
Prepared to be stopped yourself and treated like a potential criminal?
"when the provos were going full blast in the 80s I used to get stopped when travelling between Britain and Ireland at Uni terms - young single bloke doing lots of trips . Do you think young Asian men should have been stopped in equal numbers for Irish terrorism just in case it upset me ?"
My best friend was a red haired lady who's surname was Kelly - she was stopped at the border as a matter of routine. I don't recall any outrage here.
This whole thing is bizarre - if white middle aged women with cats were to pop up as the most likely to buy Whiskas - does that makes the police biased or just following the data?
I'm afraid it's one of those things communities associated with violence have to learn to accept. I came from a pool of 1.5 million people who were more likely than most to kill people. If you factor up the 3,600 deaths between 69 and 98 that would be the equivalent of 72,000 dead on the mainland UK, what are the authorities meant to do stand back and ignore it in case somebody gets upset ? There was no point in stopping Asian, African or any other group for Irish violence as they weren't remotely involved. We the Irish did it, so why should everybody else be hassled just because we have some idiots living in our community who we won't sort out ?
I guess if Norwegian nuns were renowned as terrorists they would be profiled too, Unfortunately for some there is no track record and it tends to be others who get profiled. Likewise living illegally it tends to be those who look like they ethnically come from countries outside the EU. Better than trying to stop Norwegian nuns who probably have a 100% right to come in and a 0% chance of doing anything wrong.
The Tories could make this more official by creating statute. To save them time, they should just copy the "pass laws" of apartheid era South Africa.
What a ridiculous point. There is , thankfully, no comparison between apartheid South Africa and modern Britain and to make that claim is frankly idiotic.
Why is it ridiculous ? In one you stop someone and ask for papers because of his colour and , in the other, you stop someone and ask for papers because of his colour .
Yes and white and black people don;t use the same toilets and schools in Britain, have the same careers in Britain, live in the same neighborhoods in Britain and are segregated at football matches.
By statute.
Apparently the latest ashes series almost didn't take place because one of the aussie players looked heavily tanned and the English authorities got chippy about letting him play
Modern Britain and Apartheid South Africa - like two peas in a pod.
Difficult question to answer, I am not completely sure.
I think we are now at the nub of the issue. People like the idea of expelling illegal immigrants, but they won;t countenance doing what it takes to achieve it.
And maybe politicians should make that clear.
Want illegals expelled?
Prepared for large numbers of black and brown people to be spot checked by burly white coppers?
Prepared to be stopped yourself and treated like a potential criminal?
Yes make you right
We live in hypocritical and easily offended times, where people want all the smooth with none of the rough.
I would have no problem being stopped and searched, and when I was a teenager hanging about at night over the park drinking and smoking drugs, I did get randomly searched on the street for looking like the type of person that did that.
When did Labour carry out "search and ask" in tube stations ?
All the time. In fact, as article below shows, there used to be completely random checks under Labour until that was stopped so that the operations could only happen if pre-planned and intelligence-led.
They are in the EU or the Commonwealth or USA. As I said, these are mostly overstayers but illegal, or entitled to be here.
What's your beef? That most illegals aren't from Caucasian states so its racist to point it out? If they were Chinese or Japanese or Korean would that be different.
the cavalry has arrived tim - a poll ! Just anything to get off a recovering economy and Ed's party difficulties. Surely we're well overdue an Ed is Crap thread, even Kevin Maguire says so ?
But if other polls show Tory ->UKIP moves, it will indeed be difficult not to conclude that the unpleasant race card stuff from the Tories is driving it, as we know from previous episodes that Tory dog-whistling to the hard Right benefits UKIP.
the cavalry has arrived tim - a poll ! Just anything to get off a recovering economy and Ed's party difficulties. Surely we're well overdue an Ed is Crap thread, even Kevin Maguire says so ?
And if only Labour were on the right side of public opinion here for once.
Mr Hodges using Enoch as a strawman is pitiful. Until Labour grows up and stops hugging long dead reassuring stereotypes, they're convincing no-one bar the choir.
the cavalry has arrived tim - a poll ! Just anything to get off a recovering economy and Ed's party difficulties. Surely we're well overdue an Ed is Crap thread, even Kevin Maguire says so ?
And if only Labour were on the right side of public opinion here for once.
Where is your polling evidence that public opinion agrees with you on this stop and search policy ?
But if other polls show Tory ->UKIP moves, it will indeed be difficult not to conclude that the unpleasant race card stuff from the Tories is driving it, as we know from previous episodes that Tory dog-whistling to the hard Right benefits UKIP.
It's possible that the short-term effect will be to boost UKIP at Con's expense but this stuff will still help Con in the general election. If the policy simultaneously impresses UKIP supporters and makes them remember UKIP, they may like Con more when the issue fades from the news and they forget about UKIP again.
I don't think there was much Tory -> UKIP in Thetford West. The battlelines were clearly drawn the first time round on immigration etc. But at 3% it's plausible, as is not bothering to vote because "this is a Lab/UKIP marginal" was the message of several Look East reports and whatnot that I've seen.
I made the point that profiling is adjusted for the crime.
Be it middle aged white blokes or where you hail from ethnically. It's pretty hard to be Caucasian and be an illegal immigrant.
No, the question was why you seem so comfortable with the government abusing our freedoms in this manner. Stopping drunk drivers is not the same as asking people to prove they are who they say they are, it was just another pathetic attempt to gloss over the fact that this government are following the same lines as set out by Labour over "nothing to hide, nothing to fear", at least Labour tried to legislate on ID cards and such and were open about it, this government have one upped Labour by doing it without even trying to bother with the relevant legislation, in fact they came out against it in the manifesto.
The Populus poll is worth a thread. A huge move away from the Tories to UKIP as they try to play the race card.
tim hypothesis with no polling data to back it up......should we have a thread on YouGov everytime there is a 'huge move away from Party X because of issue Y'?
"If the policy simultaneously impresses UKIP supporters and makes them remember UKIP, they may like Con more when the issue fades from the news and they forget about UKIP again".
The tories may be trying to smoke out Farage's real intentions here.
After all the bluster, what's UKIP's proposal to expel illegal immigrants?
What race card is tim talking about...what race is Cameron supposedly persecuting and where is the ecvidence for it..is it very hot in cheshire/Liverpool today
For me it is ridiculous to pretend that this is something that the evil Tories do and Labour wouldnt ever when it went on under both parties.
You have been blathering about this without coming with a single evidence. Just repeatedly writing the same thing does not make it correct.
Did you miss the link to the article I posted? My assertion that these operations happened under Labour is correct. I'm surprised that anyone old enough to remember it needs to be reminded of it but seeing as you do feel free to read the article I posted. Your attempts to potray the Tories as nasty and Labour as innocent on this issue is entertaining but entirely wrong.
Didn't Cameron tell his MPs they must visit as many Asian functions in their constituencies as they can ? All that work, just undone.
We'll see if the trend continues, but I can agree with this. The east African Indian subset are going to be the people who switch over this and as a group we are pretty centre right economically and socially. If they keep this up I think London will be a lost cause. I'm honestly surprised that Boris hasn't laid down the law and told Number 10 to do one.
Well done, you avoided the question. I expected nothing less of course.
I don't really have an issue with profiling per se. At airports, for example, it is absurd if families of holiday makers are stopped and searched as frequently as single young men of asian origin and muslim apparal. It is not simplistic to suggest that the latter are a far more obvious risk group. The same might apply to single travellers from Jamaica in respect of drug mules. This seems common sense to me and a good use of resources.
What I find concerning about this procedure is that it is identifying groups of our society in a way that is frankly racist. Whilst the asian or black community may well have more illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers amongst it proportionally than the white population this is insufficiently so to justify this form of profiling. Secondly there is a difference of degree between a terrorist threat on a plane and the rather remote possibility that someone stopped at random is an illegal immigrant in terms of the potential harm making it harder in this case to justify such acts. The vast majority of those communities have as much right to live here and walk the streets unmolested as the rest of us.
As I suggested yesterday I think resources are better focussed where other issues arise. People found working in unregistered factories or off the books of legal businesses avoiding tax and NI would be obvious examples where investigations into their status generally could and should be followed up. Those arrested for another offence would be another example.
This is really difficult territory and I can fully understand your anger. I think this is wrong but because of the way it is being done rather than in principle. One of the first things the Coaltion did was to abolish the Indentity card legislation proposed by the last authoritarian government. They need to reflect why they did that.
But if other polls show Tory ->UKIP moves, it will indeed be difficult not to conclude that the unpleasant race card stuff from the Tories is driving it, as we know from previous episodes that Tory dog-whistling to the hard Right benefits UKIP.
It's possible that the short-term effect will be to boost UKIP at Con's expense but this stuff will still help Con in the general election. If the policy simultaneously impresses UKIP supporters and makes them remember UKIP, they may like Con more when the issue fades from the news and they forget about UKIP again.
I think the Tories are trying to re-create Maggie Thatchers "swamping the country" moment. There is one big difference. This is a different country as having 30 or so MPs from ethnic minorities testify. This is not 1979.
They will harden right wing attitudes but equally repel many centrist voters as they did in 2005.
Is there something I don't know about Anglesey? That looks like a spectacularly bad performance by Labour?
According to the BBC "Welsh Labour threw everything they had at this campaign, believing they could make a battle of it with Plaid for the seat that would have given them a majority in the assembly. " http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-23506132 So even after throwing the proverbial kitchen sink Labour went backwards. Was it their infamous ground game that tim boasts about? Based on a common conclusion by some on here, this does of course mean that the 2010 Lib Dem voters will deliver for Ed Milliband a Labour majority in 2015 and that the LDs 1% of the vote also means that they keep all 3 of their Welsh MPs. PS Is the moon made of green cheese?
Strange that you have not even mentioned the Conservative performance losing 70% of their vote share and dropping to 4th from 2nd . Anyone who has been following the by election would know that Labour certainly did not throw everything including the kitchen sink into the campaign . The whole campaign was very strangely pretty much low key and it was clear early on that Plaid were going to win if not by such a large margin .
Mark Senior, I did follow your line of thought yesterday that the previous Conservative vote in Anglesey was largely personal, so the drop was somewhat expected. However 1% in an area such as Wales is a basket case level of achievement. But so be it if LDs are ok about it. More puzzling is the fact that the BBC judge that Labour tried very hard whereas you inform us that is not the case. Why would the BBC Wales believe something else? What evidence do you have to inform us? Such as leaflet numbers etc?
No surprise that some on here feel it is acceptable to regard people who look foreign as potential lawbreakers. If opposing such a belief puts me in a minority, so be it. What ID should foreign looking people carry with them to prove they have the right of abode in the UK?
Is there something I don't know about Anglesey? That looks like a spectacularly bad performance by Labour?
According to the BBC "Welsh Labour threw everything they had at this campaign, believing they could make a battle of it with Plaid for the seat that would have given them a majority in the assembly. " http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-23506132 So even after throwing the proverbial kitchen sink Labour went backwards. Was it their infamous ground game that tim boasts about? Based on a common conclusion by some on here, this does of course mean that the 2010 Lib Dem voters will deliver for Ed Milliband a Labour majority in 2015 and that the LDs 1% of the vote also means that they keep all 3 of their Welsh MPs. PS Is the moon made of green cheese?
Strange that you have not even mentioned the Conservative performance losing 70% of their vote share and dropping to 4th from 2nd . Anyone who has been following the by election would know that Labour certainly did not throw everything including the kitchen sink into the campaign . The whole campaign was very strangely pretty much low key and it was clear early on that Plaid were going to win if not by such a large margin .
Mark Senior, I did follow your line of thought yesterday that the previous Conservative vote in Anglesey was largely personal, so the drop was somewhat expected. However 1% in an area such as Wales is a basket case level of achievement. But so be it if LDs are ok about it. More puzzling is the fact that the BBC judge that Labour tried very hard whereas you inform us that is not the case. Why would the BBC Wales believe something else? What evidence do you have to inform us? Such as leaflet numbers etc?
Ynys Mon is an area where the LD's have performed badly for some years now in Assembly and parliamentary elections . The strange thing as local elections showed earlier this year the base LD vote in the area is nearer 10% rather than 1% . You are not quoting me correctly re the Conservative vote being largely personal . I said that the vote in 2011 was increased above its normal level . I did not put a figure on it;s natural level but FWIW I would have said 20% rather than the 29% achieved .
Sion Simon is back in the political limelight as a Labour MEP candidate! Who can forget this political seer? "We cannot be killed ..... 'Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority'..... This ought to herald another decade of strong, confident, consensual Labour government." http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
the cavalry has arrived tim - a poll ! Just anything to get off a recovering economy and Ed's party difficulties. Surely we're well overdue an Ed is Crap thread, even Kevin Maguire says so ?
And if only Labour were on the right side of public opinion here for once.
Mr Hodges using Enoch as a strawman is pitiful. Until Labour grows up and stops hugging long dead reassuring stereotypes, they're convincing no-one bar the choir.
I doubt there's such a thing as a homogenous public view on this. Middle class lefties like to huff and puff on it because they think it makes them seem caring, cameroons probably aren't far behind. communities bearing the brunt of immigration are pretty solidly for some action and most righties will be for controlled immigration according to what we need. But the cry racist aprroach has probably had its day, it still makes an appearance but the national omerta on the subject has been long ruptured.
Very good article by Hodges. He's right though. These Tory tactics are shaming all of us. Something I can't remember since the Thatcher era
There is something a bit Orwellian about recent developments on immigration. I note with no surprise whatsoever that the scope of the Prime Ministers Internet filter has begun to broaden.
I have never had a problem in individuals moving countries to work whether illegally or legal . You can never blame somebody for trying to better themselves or their circumstances imo. Its people who do not contribute ,whatever their immigration or country of origin (including being british born) that rankles me. I see a few on here moaning about illegal workers who I can guess from their numerous posting day in day out dont contribute much to Britain.
That said . obviosuly a country as a whole must be practical about the levels of support it can offer to a certian amount of population . Britian seems fairly streched in terms of services at the moment so I can see a need to curb immigration full stop. An irony of UNITE challenging the van mesages is that immigration labour damages most the low paid ,fairly unskilled workers in terms of lowering wages. Who needs to pay more than the minimum wage now for basic labour?
No surprise that some on here feel it is acceptable to regard people who look foreign as potential lawbreakers. If opposing such a belief puts me in a minority, so be it. What ID should foreign looking people carry with them to prove they have the right of abode in the UK?
Thankfully, thanks to the coalition cancelling Labour's ID cards measures, that doesn't arise.
MickPork, thank you for your lengthy response below, but how about
How about this time you actually read and take in my lengthy response to yet another repeat of a question by you which I have answered many times before. The post spoke for itself and was backed up with evidence. Next time do your own research as you seem to be under the absurd illusion I'm here here at your beck and call to answer every query you have.
If you still don't understand the dynamics then I suggest it's not a subject for you. If you want to make any predictions yourself then do so.
No surprise that some on here feel it is acceptable to regard people who look foreign as potential lawbreakers. If opposing such a belief puts me in a minority, so be it. What ID should foreign looking people carry with them to prove they have the right of abode in the UK?
Thankfully, thanks to the coalition cancelling Labour's ID cards measures, that doesn't arise.
Except that if you are stopped because you look foreign and are asked to prove you have the right to be in the UK de facto it does.
the cavalry has arrived tim - a poll ! Just anything to get off a recovering economy and Ed's party difficulties. Surely we're well overdue an Ed is Crap thread, even Kevin Maguire says so ?
And if only Labour were on the right side of public opinion here for once.
Mr Hodges using Enoch as a strawman is pitiful. Until Labour grows up and stops hugging long dead reassuring stereotypes, they're convincing no-one bar the choir.
I doubt there's such a thing as a homogenous public view on this. Middle class lefties like to huff and puff on it because they think it makes them seem caring, cameroons probably aren't far behind. communities bearing the brunt of immigration are pretty solidly for some action and most righties will be for controlled immigration according to what we need. But the cry racist aprroach has probably had its day, it still makes an appearance but the national omerta on the subject has been long ruptured.
I am not sure that it's only middle class lefties who have a problem with stopping foreign-looking people in the street and asking them to prove they have the right to be there.
Comments
I think we are now at the nub of the issue. People like the idea of expelling illegal immigrants, but they won;t countenance doing what it takes to achieve it.
And maybe politicians should make that clear.
Want illegals expelled?
Prepared for large numbers of black and brown people to be spot checked by burly white coppers?
Prepared to be stopped yourself and treated like a potential criminal?
1. Richard Howitt MEP
2. Alex Mayer
3. Sandy Martin
4. Bhavna Joshi
5. Paul Bishop
6. Naseem Ayub
7. Chris Ostrowski
South East (1)
1. Annelise Dodds
2. John Howarth
3. Emily Westley
4. Del Singh
5. Farah Nazeer
6. James Swindlehurst
7. Maggie Hughes
8. James Watkins
9. Karen Landles
10. ??
South West (0)
1 Clare Moody
2. Glyn Ford
3 Ann Reeder
4 Hadleigh Roberts
5 Jude Robinson
6 Junab Ali
Spot the difference ?
1. Arelene McCarthy MEP
2 Theresa Griffin
3 Afzal Khan
4 Julie Ward
5 Wajid Khan
6 Angeliki Stogia
7 Steve Carter
8 Pascale Lamb
Yorkshire (1)
1. Linda McAvan MEP
2 Richard Corbett
3 Eleonor Tnnicliffe
4 Asghar Khan
5 Helen Mirfin Boukouris
6 Darren Hughes
London (2)
1 Claude Moraes MEP
2 Mary Honeyball MEP
3 Lucy Anderson
4 Seb Dance
5 Ivana Bartoletti
6 Kamaljeet Jandy
7 Sanchia Alasia
8 Andrea Biondi
Yes and white and black people don;t use the same toilets and schools in Britain, have the same careers in Britain, live in the same neighborhoods in Britain and are segregated at football matches.
By statute.
Apparently the latest ashes series almost didn't take place because one of the aussie players looked heavily tanned and the English authorities got chippy about letting him play
Modern Britain and Apartheid South Africa - like two peas in a pod.
Yes make you right
We live in hypocritical and easily offended times, where people want all the smooth with none of the rough.
I would have no problem being stopped and searched, and when I was a teenager hanging about at night over the park drinking and smoking drugs, I did get randomly searched on the street for looking like the type of person that did that.
And I complained it wasn't fair!
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/immigration-checks-on-tube-passengers-banned-7254045.html
They are in the EU or the Commonwealth or USA. As I said, these are mostly overstayers but illegal, or entitled to be here.
What's your beef? That most illegals aren't from Caucasian states so its racist to point it out? If they were Chinese or Japanese or Korean would that be different.
Stuff and nonsense.
RT@CourtNewsUK: Judge and defence barrister ask jury 2 sign petition opposing changes to legal aid”
But if other polls show Tory ->UKIP moves, it will indeed be difficult not to conclude that the unpleasant race card stuff from the Tories is driving it, as we know from previous episodes that Tory dog-whistling to the hard Right benefits UKIP.
Mr Hodges using Enoch as a strawman is pitiful. Until Labour grows up and stops hugging long dead reassuring stereotypes, they're convincing no-one bar the choir.
We need Jane now. The second spot on SE list.....she will have many things to say about him, I bet....
That's what Farage seems to be promising.
If the Referendum is a No, how many seats do you forecast each party getting in Scotland in the 2015 GE?
The tories may be trying to smoke out Farage's real intentions here.
After all the bluster, what's UKIP's proposal to expel illegal immigrants?
What I find concerning about this procedure is that it is identifying groups of our society in a way that is frankly racist. Whilst the asian or black community may well have more illegal immigrants and failed asylum seekers amongst it proportionally than the white population this is insufficiently so to justify this form of profiling. Secondly there is a difference of degree between a terrorist threat on a plane and the rather remote possibility that someone stopped at random is an illegal immigrant in terms of the potential harm making it harder in this case to justify such acts. The vast majority of those communities have as much right to live here and walk the streets unmolested as the rest of us.
As I suggested yesterday I think resources are better focussed where other issues arise. People found working in unregistered factories or off the books of legal businesses avoiding tax and NI would be obvious examples where investigations into their status generally could and should be followed up. Those arrested for another offence would be another example.
This is really difficult territory and I can fully understand your anger. I think this is wrong but because of the way it is being done rather than in principle. One of the first things the Coaltion did was to abolish the Indentity card legislation proposed by the last authoritarian government. They need to reflect why they did that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you identified as a libertarian?
I'm confused how you can reconcile that with your comments on profiling upthread.
I'm genuinely interested.
They will harden right wing attitudes but equally repel many centrist voters as they did in 2005.
Very good article by Hodges. He's right though. These Tory tactics are shaming all of us. Something I can't remember since the Thatcher era
"We cannot be killed ..... 'Shortly there will be an election, in which Labour will increase its majority'..... This ought to herald another decade of strong, confident, consensual Labour government."
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
Such talent in the Labours ranks.
and most righties will be for controlled immigration according to what we need. But the cry racist aprroach has probably had its day, it still makes an appearance but the national omerta on the subject has been long ruptured.
Double plus bad.
That said . obviosuly a country as a whole must be practical about the levels of support it can offer to a certian amount of population . Britian seems fairly streched in terms of services at the moment so I can see a need to curb immigration full stop. An irony of UNITE challenging the van mesages is that immigration labour damages most the low paid ,fairly unskilled workers in terms of lowering wages. Who needs to pay more than the minimum wage now for basic labour?
If you still don't understand the dynamics then I suggest it's not a subject for you. If you want to make any predictions yourself then do so.