An excellent piece here on the Tories potentially illegal immigration spot checks
For the love of god, tim, exactly the same happened when Labour was in power. You'll forgive me if I cant recall, for now, your posts about Labour's potentially illegal immigration spot checks.
As I posted last night I wouldnt be surprised to find out that most of the arrests are due to people not knowing their rights and being intimidated into doing or saying something that gives the officials cause for arrest.
I admire your tenacity here - but why do you bother? It's designed to trap you in a web of half-truths and justifying yourself not the person who rubbishes your opinion.
Just make your point without reference and we can all have our 2p.
Baa Baa Black sheep was banned Black coffeee was banned Black bin liners were banned References to manhole covers were banned.
Other race based
Immigrants use cats to stay in the country Black children were restricted to playing oil drums in school music lessons St George flag was banned for fear of upsetting Muslims England football shirts banned at school for fear of upsetting immigrants.
1994 World Cup was played
With larger goals In front of half empty stadiums In quarters for US TV With adverts obscuring half the screen
The Trade Union ones legion, too legion to mention
Must be more
No farming related false memory syndromes then!
I see you understand the difference between false memory syndrome and "Jack W is 109" well then
Indeed we do.
False memory syndrome is Ed Balls recollection of Labours Economic History 2005-10 and "Jack W is 109" was a bloody great party .... I mis-remember it well !!
CourtNewsUK @CourtNewsUK 55s Ukranian student accused of murdering grandfather during anti-Muslim terror campaign will stand trial in January.
Whose immigration status would David Cameron be checking first?
But tim all immigration is good isn't it ?
All the evidence shows no difference in crime rates between immigrants and the native population, perhaps with some evidence that illegal immigrants are less likely to commit crime.
I assume this Ukranian student entered since Camerons crackdown on students, which does not mean that his idiot pledge on students should be extended does it.
Since it's been on the news here, the guy is not studying in the UK, he came over to do work at a local software company in the Midlands.
Hmm, so I got stopped yesterday by the police doing spot ID checks. I refused their request. They gave me some absolute rubbish about counter terrorism laws allowing them to do it. I asked them on what basis they suspected me of being a terrorist. Then they let me go.
We don't do ID checks in this country, it is not a legal requirement to be carrying "papers" and quite frankly this is a disgusting abuse of our freedoms by the government. If they want to do this then pass ID card laws through Parliament and see how far it gets.
Sub samples are not an imperfect tool , they are useless .
It was the ICM subsample not YouGov which is why I quoted it but still gave the caveat.
Given that there is such limited data to work with it is not unreasonable to include the ICM subsample along with the Holyrood VI as long as that caveat is given
Either way anyone who thinks the lib dems are not in deep, deep trouble in scotland has their head up their arse, and not JackW's infamous one.
Well you could have given the Comres Scottish subsample
Lab 41 SNP 33 Con 9 LD 13
or for completeness the Populus one as well
Lab 39 SNP 36 Con 13 LD 11
I didn't have them but by all means put them into the pot as they confirm roughly where the scottish lib dem and SCON votes are while it underlines that the SNP and SLAB are well in front fighting for that large remaining split.
Like I said an imperfect tool but the better the pollster is and the more data there is to throw in for comparison the more likely it is to get at least a basic rough guide without a specific poll on scottish VI for 2015.
It's tempting to use the Holyrood VI as a base comparator for them all right now but it's usefulness as a guide to 2015 reduces the closer we get to the actual 2015 GE given the fundamental differences in an actual Westmisnter general election campaign from the Holyrood one.
you posted the ICM one only presumably because it had the lowest LD share and extrapolated that to showing LD's facing wipe out in Scotland . The overall picture shows the LDs down but by no means facing wipe out . I repeat sub samples are not an imperfect tool , individual sub samples are useless .
Interesting article in the Speccie of the challenges to the welfare state posed by mass immigration (we need it to pay for it, but don't like giving money to 'foreigners'):
Mass immigration or the welfare state? Because we may not be able to have both
An excellent piece here on the Tories potentially illegal immigration spot checks
For the love of god, tim, exactly the same happened when Labour was in power. You'll forgive me if I cant recall, for now, your posts about Labour's potentially illegal immigration spot checks.
As I posted last night I wouldnt be surprised to find out that most of the arrests are due to people not knowing their rights and being intimidated into doing or saying something that gives the officials cause for arrest.
He doesn't have anything better to do with his time, let him have this at least...
Tim, the do stops at my tube station all the time - drugs, weapons, fare-dodgers. It's normal, keeps things safe and I support it. I've been pulled over myself. Dog sniffs you. Not a big deal.
But that's not the point of this, is it? It's to open up 'removal' as a political flank and force Labour and the Lib Dems to say what they'd do. It'll be interesting to find out...
So far I've only seen a couple of posters supporting this
It is illegal for an officer to conduct a speculative check on your immigration status. If you are a commuter simply going to the Tube station, you do not satisfy this standard.
Anyone else care to chip in?
Ok Wee Timmy, I'll bite....
Most likely Secondary-Legislation or an Enabling Act. Probably based on some poorly drafted piece of shyte such as the Anti-Terrorism laws that Labour passed. Just as legislation has been misused for checking bins or school applicants so I am sure the case applies here.
What is your view on the rule-of-law? Do you support positive handling of criminal behaviour where skin-pigment is a factor...?
CourtNewsUK @CourtNewsUK 55s Ukranian student accused of murdering grandfather during anti-Muslim terror campaign will stand trial in January.
Whose immigration status would David Cameron be checking first?
But tim all immigration is good isn't it ?
All the evidence shows no difference in crime rates between immigrants and the native population, perhaps with some evidence that illegal immigrants are less likely to commit crime.
I assume this Ukranian student entered since Camerons crackdown on students, which does not mean that his idiot pledge on students should be extended does it.
Since it's been on the news here, the guy is not studying in the UK, he came over to do work at a local software company in the Midlands.
We software engineers are dangerous.
Mainly to ourselves, but dangerous nonetheless.
Regarding the Ukrainian's incidents: I wonder how the bomber felt when he realised that one of his blasts was not discovered for a few weeks? It must've dented his pride a bit when he had to tell the police where it had gone off (allegedly).
The higher the abuse wattage - the lower the confidence
The economic data is the real body blow to labour. No wonder Ballsie wants Mili's job. Labour's economic brief is starting to look like being Saddam's information minister....
Tim, the do stops at my tube station all the time - drugs, weapons, fare-dodgers. It's normal, keeps things safe and I support it. I've been pulled over myself. Dog sniffs you. Not a big deal.
But that's not the point of this, is it? It's to open up 'removal' as a political flank and force Labour and the Lib Dems to say what they'd do. It'll be interesting to find out...
It's not the same, a weapons check etc... is for the safety of passengers on the tube or to ensure people are paying their fares. Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting. We don't have ID cards in the UK because there is no popular support for them, Labour tried and failed for years to get them through their own benches, before that Michael Howard tried and failed as Home Sec to get ID cards on the statue book. If the government want people to carry around "papers" or ID cards that can be spot checked at any time by law enforcement officers then they need to pass legislation through Parliament, not hide behind bullsh*t anti-terrorism laws which they promised to reform when they came into power in 2010.
you posted the ICM one only presumably because it had the lowest LD share and extrapolated that to showing LD's facing wipe out in Scotland . The overall picture shows the LDs down but by no means facing wipe out . I repeat sub samples are not an imperfect tool , individual sub samples are useless .
Incorrect. I used it as it was the one I had to hand, It's ICM, it tallies to some degree with the the Holyrood VI and the basic shape of a large chunk of votes being split between the SNP and labour with the tories and the lib dems trailing is a not unreasonable guide to how things are most likely to be.
Had I wished to show the lib dems facing wipe out this is the poll I would use.
New poll suggests Lib Dems face Scottish mainland wipeout
According to the latest Ashcroft poll of marginal seats the Lib Dems are facing a total wipeout of MPs in mainland Scotland, with even Charlie Kennedy’s seat falling to the SNP.
1247 voters in the 11 Lib Dem Scottish Westminster seats were polled last month, both as to their general party support, and who they would vote for in their own constituency.
The result revealed that Lib-Dem support has collapsed and the Tories have fallen further back.
While Labour saw a modest increase, the SNP was the major beneficiary. Current voting intention (with the 2010 figures in those seats in brackets) was SNP 31% (+16%) : Lab 26% (+6%) : LD 20% (-21%) : Con 16% (-5%): Other 7% (+4%).
Although that vote change won’t be universal across every seat, the figures suggest that only Orkney and Shetland would remain in Lib Dem hands. Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk would fall to the Tories, while Labour would pick up East Dunbartonshire and Edinburgh West.
The other seven seats would be won by the SNP - Aberdeenshire West & Kincardine; Argyll & Bute; Caithness, Sutherland & Easter Ross; North East Fife; Gordon; Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch & Strathspey; and Ross, Skye & Lochaber.
If the results were to be repeated in the 2015 general election then such a scenario would see Sir Menzies Campbell, Danny Alexander and current Scottish Secretary Michael Moore all lose their seats
I admire your tenacity here - but why do you bother? It's designed to trap you in a web of half-truths and justifying yourself not the person who rubbishes your opinion.
Just make your point without reference and we can all have our 2p.
Leaving the argument without responding to a question is PB lefty for admitting you've lost
@Fenster "Using the Tory Grandees to sell that story on telly will also be a good move, I think. Getting the likes of Heseltine, Major and Portillo on the news underlining the achievements would work: people like hearing from the veterans; the like the gravitas and experience."
More likely these so called grandees would put them off and vote UKIP. Major comes over as a wimp nowadays, Heseltine looks what he he is; tired and used up and Portillo is #sadmanonatrain.
I think you need to realise that swing voters don't necessarily view the political scene the way that right-wingers or UKIP voters do.
Heseltine, a pro-European, would appeal to the middle-ground voters the Tories need to attract in the marginals. He and Portillo certainly wouldn't be attractive to UKIP.
My point is, grandees can be useful in a campaign, and the Tories may well have an advantage here in that Major and Heseltine and co will hugely back Cameron, whereas Miliband will struggle to get the equivalent support.
That's an interesting point - personally I recoil against Grandees.
They usually have no constituency, are Lords, are past it for good reason and still yearn the limelight/back-seat drive.
I don't want to know what any Tory pre-97 thinks. They had their day and now its 16yrs later.
I think the value of having an experienced, semi-detached supporter (a good example is Paddy Ashdown) is that they are able to communicate a message from outside of the Westminster bubble. They are appear less biased and better able to encapsulate a message*. Largely - I suppose - because they don't have to get embroiled in the feral tete a tete over policy that ministers do.
Someone like Portillo isn't my cup of tea, but I bet he'd gain more traction in the marginals than say a Chris Grayling or Theresa May or George Osborne, or a really good centre-right communicator like Dan Hannan.
*I know this sounds bonkers but as a rugby coach I often ask the views of retired coaches who watch us play. It's amazing what they see that I won't necessarily see, so rammed is my head up the arse of all the peripheral things going on around me.
Doreen Lawrence has produced no evidence that racial profiling is used but because she's Doreen it must be true.
There is plenty of evidence that her claim that "police stop and search operations focus on people of colour" is correct. She also said she "thought" racial profiling was involved in these immigration cases, she's perfectly entitled to her opinion, do you have any evidence it is wrong?
...They do stops at my tube station all the time - drugs, weapons, fare-dodgers. It's normal, keeps things safe and I support it. I've been pulled over myself. Dog sniffs you. Not a big deal.
But that's not the point of this, is it? It's to open up 'removal' as a political flank and force Labour and the Lib Dems to say what they'd do. It'll be interesting to find out...
Assuming this is Crosby giving the HO types more confidence to get on with what they really think, I can't see an issue unless you want to be outraged.
Being an illegal immigrant is well illegal. I worked at DWP when the terrorism threat was high and two of my white middle aged dull suited colleagues were stopped at Tube stations and searched.
It was clearly a load of PC tosh to show the plod weren't *racial profiling*. Why the police can't profile is beyond me - it not *racist* its looking at a body of data and saying people who fit these criteria are more likely to do X. If they happen to come from largely sunny countries along the way is neither here nor there.
They do it all the time for paedos or serial killers or the Dunblane sorts and we don't see a load of hoo-haa against men who live with their mothers/in bedrooms and have no friends offline.
The HO or police have the data and its not exactly surprising that those who hail from certain countries/look like they do and live in areas with lots of illegal immigrants aren't rubbing shoulders with similar sorts.
There is plenty of evidence that her claim that "police stop and search operations focus on people of colour" is correct. She also said she "thought" racial profiling was involved in these immigration cases, she's perfectly entitled to her opinion, do you have any evidence it is wrong?
Looking at all of the people being stopped when I was, I'm almost certain that racial profiling was being used. Every single person was brown or black.
Tim, the do stops at my tube station all the time - drugs, weapons, fare-dodgers. It's normal, keeps things safe and I support it. I've been pulled over myself. Dog sniffs you. Not a big deal.
But that's not the point of this, is it? It's to open up 'removal' as a political flank and force Labour and the Lib Dems to say what they'd do. It'll be interesting to find out...
It's not the same, a weapons check etc... is for the safety of passengers on the tube or to ensure people are paying their fares. Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting. We don't have ID cards in the UK because there is no popular support for them, Labour tried and failed for years to get them through their own benches, before that Michael Howard tried and failed as Home Sec to get ID cards on the statue book. If the government want people to carry around "papers" or ID cards that can be spot checked at any time by law enforcement officers then they need to pass legislation through Parliament, not hide behind bullsh*t anti-terrorism laws which they promised to reform when they came into power in 2010.
"Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting"
Sorry to be pedantic, but it's only disgusting if they aren't stopping any white people
I admire your tenacity here - but why do you bother? It's designed to trap you in a web of half-truths and justifying yourself not the person who rubbishes your opinion.
Just make your point without reference and we can all have our 2p.
Leaving the argument without responding to a question is PB lefty for admitting you've lost
She also said she "thought" racial profiling was involved in these immigration cases, she's perfectly entitled to her opinion, do you have any evidence it is wrong?
I have no evidence but I don;t think we should accept it as gospel just because Doreen says it.
Liquidation was, incredible as it sounds, the best possible result to come out of the creditors meeting. SISU have 'liquidated' the soul of the club anyway, hopefully they can be got rid of shortly.
The Football League really should throw us out now, a 15 point penalty is probably not enough.
Mr. Max, are you back in the UK permanently? I thought you'd flown off to Shanghai.
I was there for a while, it didn't work out, so now I'm back. Lots of hassle with the Chinese government after the Japan/China island dispute, visa issues and all sorts.
I have no evidence but I don;t think we should accept it as gospel just because Doreen says it.
She isnt asking you to, she's simply giving her opinion on the matter. I think it is highly likely that she is correct and I doiubt you really think she's wrong. The claim she did make (that stop and search affects ethnic minorities disproportionately) is backed by ample evidence.
Insolvency levels continuing to fall, NIESR boosting growth forecasts, exports up substantially, PMI indicators very positive indeed...
I'm amused to see that Roger has, with characteristic elan, chosen today of all days to remind us all that I correctly pointed out that Osborne's judgement on the macro-economic positioning was near-perfect, even if he has misquoted me slightly.
Doreen Lawrence has produced no evidence that racial profiling is used but because she's Doreen it must be true.
There is plenty of evidence that her claim that "police stop and search operations focus on people of colour" is correct. She also said she "thought" racial profiling was involved in these immigration cases, she's perfectly entitled to her opinion, do you have any evidence it is wrong?
police stop and search operations focus on people of colour
start worrying Neil, in this hot sunshine people with lobster red skin are just advertising they're Irish.
Tim, the do stops at my tube station all the time - drugs, weapons, fare-dodgers. It's normal, keeps things safe and I support it. I've been pulled over myself. Dog sniffs you. Not a big deal.
But that's not the point of this, is it? It's to open up 'removal' as a political flank and force Labour and the Lib Dems to say what they'd do. It'll be interesting to find out...
It's not the same, a weapons check etc... is for the safety of passengers on the tube or to ensure people are paying their fares. Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting. We don't have ID cards in the UK because there is no popular support for them, Labour tried and failed for years to get them through their own benches, before that Michael Howard tried and failed as Home Sec to get ID cards on the statue book. If the government want people to carry around "papers" or ID cards that can be spot checked at any time by law enforcement officers then they need to pass legislation through Parliament, not hide behind bullsh*t anti-terrorism laws which they promised to reform when they came into power in 2010.
"Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting"
Sorry to be pedantic, but it's only disgusting if they aren't stopping any white people
It's a disgusting abuse of our freedoms whoever is being stopped IMO, but the pretty blatant targeting of non-whites just puts this idea of spot checks even further into that territory. It is not a legal requirement for a British citizen to carry any form of ID, and one does not have to be produced on demand to a law enforcement officer. That they were hiding behind some anti-terror rubbish (as the officer who stopped me said, at least) just points to how the government are abusing our freedoms.
Mr. Max, I'm slightly surprised. I read a bit about the islands dispute but never imagined that'd affect your work.
Glad you stood your ground. It'd be helpful for the debate on stop and search (regarding illegal immigration) if we had stats around the areas such immigrants generally live and the proportion that come from X, Y and Z. If most of them are, say, Samoans who live in mostly black areas then it makes more sense to stop a relatively high number of black people. On the other hand, if most of them are Poles who live in mostly white areas, it'd make more sense to mostly check whites.
Doreen Lawrence has produced no evidence that racial profiling is used but because she's Doreen it must be true.
There is plenty of evidence that her claim that "police stop and search operations focus on people of colour" is correct. She also said she "thought" racial profiling was involved in these immigration cases, she's perfectly entitled to her opinion, do you have any evidence it is wrong?
Surely you could simply provide evidence that your position is right?
Doreen Lawrence has produced no evidence that racial profiling is used but because she's Doreen it must be true.
There is plenty of evidence that her claim that "police stop and search operations focus on people of colour" is correct. She also said she "thought" racial profiling was involved in these immigration cases, she's perfectly entitled to her opinion, do you have any evidence it is wrong?
Surely you could simply provide evidence that your position is right?
The people being stopped where I was stopped were exclusive black or brown. Though I wasn't there for long so it could have been a coincidence.
MaxPB: I can't be bothered having an argument about it. But suffice to say, I don't have a problem iwth the police throwing a net out to see what they can catch. Even though it is a publicity stunt and too little, too late. As I said, the interest thing will be Labour's official reaction - what does the shadow home secretary think about it?
It's a disgusting abuse of our freedoms whoever is being stopped IMO, but the pretty blatant targeting of non-whites just puts this idea of spot checks even further into that territory. It is not a legal requirement for a British citizen to carry any form of ID, and one does not have to be produced on demand to a law enforcement officer. That they were hiding behind some anti-terror rubbish (as the officer who stopped me said, at least) just points to how the government are abusing our freedoms.
Quite right, Max. This really is completely unacceptable.
Tim, the do stops at my tube station all the time - drugs, weapons, fare-dodgers. It's normal, keeps things safe and I support it. I've been pulled over myself. Dog sniffs you. Not a big deal.
But that's not the point of this, is it? It's to open up 'removal' as a political flank and force Labour and the Lib Dems to say what they'd do. It'll be interesting to find out...
It's not the same, a weapons check etc... is for the safety of passengers on the tube or to ensure people are paying their fares. Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting. We don't have ID cards in the UK because there is no popular support for them, Labour tried and failed for years to get them through their own benches, before that Michael Howard tried and failed as Home Sec to get ID cards on the statue book. If the government want people to carry around "papers" or ID cards that can be spot checked at any time by law enforcement officers then they need to pass legislation through Parliament, not hide behind bullsh*t anti-terrorism laws which they promised to reform when they came into power in 2010.
"Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting"
Sorry to be pedantic, but it's only disgusting if they aren't stopping any white people
It's a disgusting abuse of our freedoms whoever is being stopped IMO, but the pretty blatant targeting of non-whites just puts this idea of spot checks even further into that territory. It is not a legal requirement for a British citizen to carry any form of ID, and one does not have to be produced on demand to a law enforcement officer. That they were hiding behind some anti-terror rubbish (as the officer who stopped me said, at least) just points to how the government are abusing our freedoms.
You sound like someone with a valid ticket complaining when the inspectors ask you to show your ticket. Get off your high horse and let them do their job of catching the fare dodgers.
It's a disgusting abuse of our freedoms whoever is being stopped IMO, but the pretty blatant targeting of non-whites just puts this idea of spot checks even further into that territory. It is not a legal requirement for a British citizen to carry any form of ID, and one does not have to be produced on demand to a law enforcement officer. That they were hiding behind some anti-terror rubbish (as the officer who stopped me said, at least) just points to how the government are abusing our freedoms.
Quite right, Max. This really is completely unacceptable.
Doreen Lawrence has produced no evidence that racial profiling is used but because she's Doreen it must be true.
There is plenty of evidence that her claim that "police stop and search operations focus on people of colour" is correct. She also said she "thought" racial profiling was involved in these immigration cases, she's perfectly entitled to her opinion, do you have any evidence it is wrong?
Surely you could simply provide evidence that your position is right?
The people being stopped where I was stopped were exclusive black or brown. Though I wasn't there for long so it could have been a coincidence.
I'm lost here - what is your beef?
Most Caucasians here in the UK are mostly from Eastern EU and therefore legally here. Some will be here legally from Oz or NZ or the USA.
The vast majority of those who are Caucasian will therefore be here legally or be a minority of overstayers - and they should be deported.
So that leaves everyone from sunnier countries be they African or Asian who have no EU right to be here unless they happen to be French and Morrocan descent for example. It's not hard to deduce that most illegal immigrants aren't Caucasian and therefore have deeper tans as natural intended because that's where they hail from.
Tim, the do stops at my tube station all the time - drugs, weapons, fare-dodgers. It's normal, keeps things safe and I support it. I've been pulled over myself. Dog sniffs you. Not a big deal.
But that's not the point of this, is it? It's to open up 'removal' as a political flank and force Labour and the Lib Dems to say what they'd do. It'll be interesting to find out...
It's not the same, a weapons check etc... is for the safety of passengers on the tube or to ensure people are paying their fares. Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting. We don't have ID cards in the UK because there is no popular support for them, Labour tried and failed for years to get them through their own benches, before that Michael Howard tried and failed as Home Sec to get ID cards on the statue book. If the government want people to carry around "papers" or ID cards that can be spot checked at any time by law enforcement officers then they need to pass legislation through Parliament, not hide behind bullsh*t anti-terrorism laws which they promised to reform when they came into power in 2010.
"Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting"
Sorry to be pedantic, but it's only disgusting if they aren't stopping any white people
It's a disgusting abuse of our freedoms whoever is being stopped IMO, but the pretty blatant targeting of non-whites just puts this idea of spot checks even further into that territory. It is not a legal requirement for a British citizen to carry any form of ID, and one does not have to be produced on demand to a law enforcement officer. That they were hiding behind some anti-terror rubbish (as the officer who stopped me said, at least) just points to how the government are abusing our freedoms.
Somehow Sunil will side step this issue by pretending its not happening. Therasa May really wants to be PM !
Tim, the do stops at my tube station all the time - drugs, weapons, fare-dodgers. It's normal, keeps things safe and I support it. I've been pulled over myself. Dog sniffs you. Not a big deal.
But that's not the point of this, is it? It's to open up 'removal' as a political flank and force Labour and the Lib Dems to say what they'd do. It'll be interesting to find out...
It's not the same, a weapons check etc... is for the safety of passengers on the tube or to ensure people are paying their fares. Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting. We don't have ID cards in the UK because there is no popular support for them, Labour tried and failed for years to get them through their own benches, before that Michael Howard tried and failed as Home Sec to get ID cards on the statue book. If the government want people to carry around "papers" or ID cards that can be spot checked at any time by law enforcement officers then they need to pass legislation through Parliament, not hide behind bullsh*t anti-terrorism laws which they promised to reform when they came into power in 2010.
"Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting"
Sorry to be pedantic, but it's only disgusting if they aren't stopping any white people
It's a disgusting abuse of our freedoms whoever is being stopped IMO, but the pretty blatant targeting of non-whites just puts this idea of spot checks even further into that territory. It is not a legal requirement for a British citizen to carry any form of ID, and one does not have to be produced on demand to a law enforcement officer. That they were hiding behind some anti-terror rubbish (as the officer who stopped me said, at least) just points to how the government are abusing our freedoms.
when the provos were going full blast in the 80s I used to get stopped when travelling between Britain and Ireland at Uni terms - young single bloke doing lots of trips . Do you think young Asian men should have been stopped in equal numbers for Irish terrorism just in case it upset me ?
I sympathize with the government here. People won;t countenance giving illegals amnesties, and yet when the government gets serious about removals that's 'heavy handed'
Who are the Tories targeting for votes in this "stop and search" of black or brown people ? These are people who have moved to UKIP or are right wing Tories. We have a few on here.
How many centrist people who might vote Tory are put off as a result ?
Richard Nabavi has avoided this burning topic as far as I can see. He is a sensible Tory. I am not suggesting he would take his votes elsewhere. But I don't think he would be very comfortable. I could be wrong.
It's a disgusting abuse of our freedoms whoever is being stopped IMO, but the pretty blatant targeting of non-whites just puts this idea of spot checks even further into that territory. It is not a legal requirement for a British citizen to carry any form of ID, and one does not have to be produced on demand to a law enforcement officer. That they were hiding behind some anti-terror rubbish (as the officer who stopped me said, at least) just points to how the government are abusing our freedoms.
I don't get how it could work? If I were stopped and asked to prove I was legally entitled to be here I couldn't do it... Surely any illegal immigrant cold just say they dont carry ID with them?
I'm not in favour of stopping randoms in this way, but if it happens then surely makes sense to stop people who look like they might originate from countries that a big number of illegal immigrants come from? I don't know where that is, but if its Sub Saharan Africa, then it makes sense to stop more black people, if its Iceland , New Zealand, Russia and Australia, makes sense to stop virtually no black people
Thr whole thing smacks of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted anyway, we should be better at stopping illegal immigrants getting in rather than going on wild goose chases once they're here.
"when the provos were going full blast in the 80s I used to get stopped when travelling between Britain and Ireland at Uni terms - young single bloke doing lots of trips . Do you think young Asian men should have been stopped in equal numbers for Irish terrorism just in case it upset me ?"
My best friend was a red haired lady who's surname was Kelly - she was stopped at the border as a matter of routine. I don't recall any outrage here.
This whole thing is bizarre - if white middle aged women with cats were to pop up as the most likely to buy Whiskas - does that makes the police biased or just following the data?
She isn't asking me to, correct, but you are. For me her opinion carries no more weight than any other lay person in Britain.
Can you point me to where I asked you to believe her? I said I think you probably do but if you really believe that racial profiling isnt involved then that's down to you.
You sound like someone with a valid ticket complaining when the inspectors ask you to show your ticket. Get off your high horse and let them do their job of catching the fare dodgers.
Part of the terms of travelling on the underground or on a train is that a valid ticket must be presented to an inspector on demand or face a fine. I buy a ticket knowing that, and take no issue with it. In fact I encourage train companies having more ticket inspectors because I hate fare dodgers. The issue is that in this country there is no legal requirement to be carrying a form of ID and there is no legal basis for a law enforcement officer to ask a person to produce one on demand. Yet this is what has been happening on mass over the last couple of days all over London. If the government want to make it a legal requirement to carry an ID card and to give the police and other agencies the power to compel people to produce those ID cards on demand then that's fine, but they need to legislate and get a bill through Parliament and onto the statute book, not use Labour's horrible anti-terror laws.
Most Caucasians here in the UK are mostly from Eastern EU and therefore legally here. Some will be here legally from Oz or NZ or the USA.
The vast majority of those who are Caucasian will therefore be here legally or be a minority of overstayers - and they should be deported.
So that leaves everyone from sunnier countries be they African or Asian who have no EU right to be here unless they happen to be French and Morrocan descent for example. It's not hard to deduce that most illegal immigrants aren't Caucasian and therefore have deeper tans as natural intended because that's where they hail from.
My issue is that I, a British citizen, born here, educated here and lived here my whole life, have been stopped, probably unlawfully, to check that I'm a citizen of this country. The manner by which they did it was awful as well, with the assumption of guilt, the first question I was asked was "do you speak English, we have Urdu to English translators available if you don't". I don't understand why you would support the wanton disregarding of our freedoms to possibly, maybe catch a couple of illegal immigrants. If they were serious about stopping illegal immigration then they need to go after the human trafficking gangs and such like, not just aim a scattershot at London commuters so it looks like they are doing something about it.
PB gets far too serious at times - this will cheer some up - fantastic Photoshop pix to go with the story
"A man tried to smuggle his pet turtle through security in Guangzhou Baiyun International Airport by hiding it in a KFC hamburger.
The incident occurred on the morning of July 29, when a man, surnamed Li, was about to board China Southern Airlines flight 345 to Beijing, Guangzhou Daily reported. As Li passed through airport security, X-ray screening machines detected a few “odd protrusions” sticking out of a KFC burger that the man had packed in his bag.
Airport staff determined that the protrusions looked suspiciously like turtle limbs, and asked to inspect Li’s luggage. “There’s no turtle in there, just a hamburger,” Li reportedly insisted. “There’s nothing special to see inside.”
Li finally acquiesced to an inspection after repeated requests from airport staff, who uncovered the pet turtle hidden inside the burger. When asked why he had devised this strange idea, Li said that he had only wanted to travel together with his “beloved” turtle.
After staff patiently explained that turtles could not be smuggled on board the plane, Li reluctantly agreed to allow a friend to care for his pet while he was away. A few amused Sina Weibo users commented on the story after it went live, and most said that Li’s affection for his turtle was cute. One user, however, questioned Li’s logic for stuffing his pet into a burger and then sending it through an airport screening machine.
If this "stop and ask" really is thought out Tory policy, then I must say they will start going the Republican way in the US. Yes, it might be popular with some hard core right wing voters [ a substantial numbers post here ], equally it will put off a few people who do not want to be associated with these horrible policies.
Most Caucasians here in the UK are mostly from Eastern EU and therefore legally here. Some will be here legally from Oz or NZ or the USA.
The vast majority of those who are Caucasian will therefore be here legally or be a minority of overstayers - and they should be deported.
So that leaves everyone from sunnier countries be they African or Asian who have no EU right to be here unless they happen to be French and Morrocan descent for example. It's not hard to deduce that most illegal immigrants aren't Caucasian and therefore have deeper tans as natural intended because that's where they hail from.
I don't understand why you would support the wanton disregarding of our freedoms to possibly, maybe catch a couple of illegal immigrants. .
I suspect Plato and other Tories were probably less supportive when Labour were in Government overseeing similar abuses to our civil liberties.
We should be better at stopping illegal immigrants getting in rather than going on wild goose chases once they're here.
Absolutely Sam but that's dodging the question of what we do with the large number of illegals who are already here.
We either grant an amnesty or we try to catch and deport them. What do you think?
One of the things that emerged during the 2010 GE campaign when Labour and the Conservatives attacked the LD's for proposing an amnesty for illegal immigrants who had been here for 10 years was that there was already an unofficial "rule " giving amnesty for those who have been here 14 years .
If this "stop and ask" really is thought out Tory policy
All these things happened under Labour too. Indeed Labour ramped up the legislation in various ways. I dont want to be associated with these practices so I dont vote for either Labour or Tories.
So if you are randomly stopped by the plod on a Friday night for drunken driving between 0000 and 0400 - are you appalled?
Most D&D drivers are found then. And people who are driving drunks are middle aged white men and youngsters IIRC. Should they feel aggrieved because the police stop them more often as a result?
There are lots of reasons why characteristics are used by the police to group likely suspects. Your skin colour and style of beard may have something to do with it.
Most Caucasians here in the UK are mostly from Eastern EU and therefore legally here. Some will be here legally from Oz or NZ or the USA.
The vast majority of those who are Caucasian will therefore be here legally or be a minority of overstayers - and they should be deported.
So that leaves everyone from sunnier countries be they African or Asian who have no EU right to be here unless they happen to be French and Morrocan descent for example. It's not hard to deduce that most illegal immigrants aren't Caucasian and therefore have deeper tans as natural intended because that's where they hail from.
My issue is that I, a British citizen, born here, educated here and lived here my whole life, have been stopped, probably unlawfully, to check that I'm a citizen of this country. The manner by which they did it was awful as well, with the assumption of guilt, the first question I was asked was "do you speak English, we have Urdu to English translators available if you don't". I don't understand why you would support the wanton disregarding of our freedoms to possibly, maybe catch a couple of illegal immigrants. If they were serious about stopping illegal immigration then they need to go after the human trafficking gangs and such like, not just aim a scattershot at London commuters so it looks like they are doing something about it.
You sound like someone with a valid ticket complaining when the inspectors ask you to show your ticket. Get off your high horse and let them do their job of catching the fare dodgers.
Part of the terms of travelling on the underground or on a train is that a valid ticket must be presented to an inspector on demand or face a fine. I buy a ticket knowing that, and take no issue with it. In fact I encourage train companies having more ticket inspectors because I hate fare dodgers. The issue is that in this country there is no legal requirement to be carrying a form of ID and there is no legal basis for a law enforcement officer to ask a person to produce one on demand. Yet this is what has been happening on mass over the last couple of days all over London. If the government want to make it a legal requirement to carry an ID card and to give the police and other agencies the power to compel people to produce those ID cards on demand then that's fine, but they need to legislate and get a bill through Parliament and onto the statute book, not use Labour's horrible anti-terror laws.
Agree but the law enforcement officer doesn't care about peoples' documents he cares about whether people are here illegally or not. The govt has made a huge investment politically in the idea of not tolerating illegal immigrants and this is one way they are trying to monetise that policy.
I have no doubt that it is handled clumsily very often.
As for profiling, I am a fan, if done sensibly. When you come through customs on eg. the Eurostar there is always a group of sour-faced gentlemen and women staring at disembarking passengers. They are of course profiling (and stop hardly anyone). The fact is, they are better at it than Plod at Shepherds Bush tube station.
So if you are randomly stopped by the plod on a Friday night for drunken driving between 0000 and 0400 - are you appalled?
Most D&D drivers are found then. And people who are driving drunks are middle aged white men and youngsters IIRC. Should they feel aggrieved because the police stop them more often as a result?
There are lots of reasons why characteristics are used by the police to group likely suspects. Your skin colour and style of beard may have something to do with it.
Most Caucasians here in the UK are mostly from Eastern EU and therefore legally here. Some will be here legally from Oz or NZ or the USA.
The vast majority of those who are Caucasian will therefore be here legally or be a minority of overstayers - and they should be deported.
So that leaves everyone from sunnier countries be they African or Asian who have no EU right to be here unless they happen to be French and Morrocan descent for example. It's not hard to deduce that most illegal immigrants aren't Caucasian and therefore have deeper tans as natural intended because that's where they hail from.
My issue is that I, a British citizen, born here, educated here and lived here my whole life, have been stopped, probably unlawfully, to check that I'm a citizen of this country. The manner by which they did it was awful as well, with the assumption of guilt, the first question I was asked was "do you speak English, we have Urdu to English translators available if you don't". I don't understand why you would support the wanton disregarding of our freedoms to possibly, maybe catch a couple of illegal immigrants. If they were serious about stopping illegal immigration then they need to go after the human trafficking gangs and such like, not just aim a scattershot at London commuters so it looks like they are doing something about it.
Max was not randomly stopped. He was stopped because he was not white. Geddit ?
If this "stop and ask" really is thought out Tory policy
All these things happened under Labour too. Indeed Labour ramped up the legislation in various ways. I dont want to be associated with these practices so I dont vote for either Labour or Tories.
If this "stop and ask" really is thought out Tory policy, then I must say they will start going the Republican way in the US. Yes, it might be popular with some hard core right wing voters [ a substantial numbers post here ], equally it will put off a few people who do not want to be associated with these horrible policies.
Tory 2005 election strategy. Was it successful ?
Surbiton , isn't your beloved New Labour the party of " nothing to hide , nothing to fear " ?
Mass illegal immigration is just another New Labour mess that the Coalition has the sickening task of clearing up.
One of the things that emerged during the 2010 GE campaign when Labour and the Conservatives attacked the LD's for proposing an amnesty for illegal immigrants who had been here for 10 years was that there was already an unofficial "rule " giving amnesty for those who have been here 14 years .
That's a good point Mark.
Now the public are seeing the corollary of not granting amnesties, perhaps there will be more support for amnesty.
So if you are randomly stopped by the plod on a Friday night for drunken driving between 0000 and 0400 - are you appalled?
Most D&D drivers are found then. And people who are driving drunks are middle aged white men and youngsters IIRC. Should they feel aggrieved because the police stop them more often as a result?
There are lots of reasons why characteristics are used by the police to group likely suspects. Your skin colour and style of beard may have something to do with it.
Well done, you avoided the question. I expected nothing less of course.
Agree but the law enforcement officer doesn't care about peoples' documents he cares about whether people are here illegally or not. The govt has made a huge investment politically in the idea of not tolerating illegal immigrants and this is one way they are trying to monetise that policy.
I have no doubt that it is handled clumsily very often.
As for profiling, I am a fan, if done sensibly. When you come through customs on eg. the Eurostar there is always a group of sour-faced gentlemen and women staring at disembarking passengers. They are of course profiling (and stop hardly anyone). The fact is, they are better at it than Plod at Shepherds Bush tube station.
Therein lies the problem, I am in and out of airports probably more than anyone on here bar SeanT. I never get stopped for extra security, or at customs or generally anywhere else. The one time I did get stopped it turned out to be the ONS who wanted me to fill in their survey. Profiling done right is useful, I don't doubt that. This mass targeting of non-white people is the wrong way of doing it.
The other issue, which you have raised, is that the police don't seem to care about the law, they want "results". The fact that I told them to do one and went on my merry way tells me that they probably know that what they are doing wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny, and yet, there they are, doing it anyway.
So my white middle aged colleague in a suit who was stopped for being white and middle aged in a suit was? I can't think of a single terrorist who met this criterion.
If you want to be outraged - be outraged. No stats will sate your view that Evil Torees are Racist Bigots.
Do you want the police to look at the most likely sorts to have done a crime or a random cross sample of the populace so no one gets offended?
So if you are randomly stopped by the plod on a Friday night for drunken driving between 0000 and 0400 - are you appalled?
Most D&D drivers are found then. And people who are driving drunks are middle aged white men and youngsters IIRC. Should they feel aggrieved because the police stop them more often as a result?
There are lots of reasons why characteristics are used by the police to group likely suspects. Your skin colour and style of beard may have something to do with it.
Most Caucasians here in the UK are mostly from Eastern EU and therefore legally here. Some will be here legally from Oz or NZ or the USA.
The vast majority of those who are Caucasian will therefore be here legally or be a minority of overstayers - and they should be deported.
So that leaves everyone from sunnier countries be they African or Asian who have no EU right to be here unless they happen to be French and Morrocan descent for example. It's not hard to deduce that most illegal immigrants aren't Caucasian and therefore have deeper tans as natural intended because that's where they hail from.
.
Max was not randomly stopped. He was stopped because he was not white. Geddit ?
So if you are randomly stopped by the plod on a Friday night for drunken driving between 0000 and 0400 - are you appalled?
Most D&D drivers are found then. And people who are driving drunks are middle aged white men and youngsters IIRC. Should they feel aggrieved because the police stop them more often as a result?
There are lots of reasons why characteristics are used by the police to group likely suspects. Your skin colour and style of beard may have something to do with it.
Well done, you avoided the question. I expected nothing less of course.
Plato will support and justify any Conservative policy however abhorrent it is . Of course if it had been Labour policy she would have been equally strident in condemning it .
Excuse me for being pedantic but you claimed that some PB Tories believed that black coffee was banned.
Now I can quite believe that they eat babies, probably for breakfast and for the midday meal that they strangely call "lunch", but if they believed that black coffee was banned, they really shouldn't be out on their own. You should let us know who they are so that we can get them some help.
So if you are randomly stopped by the plod on a Friday night for drunken driving between 0000 and 0400 - are you appalled?
Most D&D drivers are found then. And people who are driving drunks are middle aged white men and youngsters IIRC. Should they feel aggrieved because the police stop them more often as a result?
There are lots of reasons why characteristics are used by the police to group likely suspects. Your skin colour and style of beard may have something to do with it.
Well done, you avoided the question. I expected nothing less of course.
The Tories could make this more official by creating statute. To save them time, they should just copy the "pass laws" of apartheid era South Africa.
What a ridiculous point. There is , thankfully, no comparison between apartheid South Africa and modern Britain and to make that claim is frankly idiotic.
So if you are randomly stopped by the plod on a Friday night for drunken driving between 0000 and 0400 - are you appalled?
Most D&D drivers are found then. And people who are driving drunks are middle aged white men and youngsters IIRC. Should they feel aggrieved because the police stop them more often as a result?
There are lots of reasons why characteristics are used by the police to group likely suspects. Your skin colour and style of beard may have something to do with it.
Well done, you avoided the question. I expected nothing less of course.
Plato will support and justify any Conservative policy however abhorrent it is . Of course if it had been Labour policy she would have been equally strident in condemning it .
Of course in this case it was something that happened under Labour too.
Agree but the law enforcement officer doesn't care about peoples' documents he cares about whether people are here illegally or not. The govt has made a huge investment politically in the idea of not tolerating illegal immigrants and this is one way they are trying to monetise that policy.
I have no doubt that it is handled clumsily very often.
As for profiling, I am a fan, if done sensibly. When you come through customs on eg. the Eurostar there is always a group of sour-faced gentlemen and women staring at disembarking passengers. They are of course profiling (and stop hardly anyone). The fact is, they are better at it than Plod at Shepherds Bush tube station.
Therein lies the problem, I am in and out of airports probably more than anyone on here bar SeanT. I never get stopped for extra security, or at customs or generally anywhere else. The one time I did get stopped it turned out to be the ONS who wanted me to fill in their survey. Profiling done right is useful, I don't doubt that. This mass targeting of non-white people is the wrong way of doing it.
The other issue, which you have raised, is that the police don't seem to care about the law, they want "results". The fact that I told them to do one and went on my merry way tells me that they probably know that what they are doing wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny, and yet, there they are, doing it anyway.
"when the provos were going full blast in the 80s I used to get stopped when travelling between Britain and Ireland at Uni terms - young single bloke doing lots of trips . Do you think young Asian men should have been stopped in equal numbers for Irish terrorism just in case it upset me ?"
My best friend was a red haired lady who's surname was Kelly - she was stopped at the border as a matter of routine. I don't recall any outrage here.
This whole thing is bizarre - if white middle aged women with cats were to pop up as the most likely to buy Whiskas - does that makes the police biased or just following the data?
I'm afraid it's one of those things communities associated with violence have to learn to accept. I came from a pool of 1.5 million people who were more likely than most to kill people. If you factor up the 3,600 deaths between 69 and 98 that would be the equivalent of 72,000 dead on the mainland UK, what are the authorities meant to do stand back and ignore it in case somebody gets upset ? There was no point in stopping Asian, African or any other group for Irish violence as they weren't remotely involved. We the Irish did it, so why should everybody else be hassled just because we have some idiots living in our community who we won't sort out ?
Everyone knows that this "stop and ask" exercise is not to catch illegal immigrants. How many would you catch ? It is more to sublimate the message to people like Plato that the Tories are being tough.
If they really wanted to catch illegals, they should make raids on cleaning firms who pay next to nothing to clean offices in the middle of the night. How does anyone think our offices get cleaned ? Who do think offers to get your car get hand washed ?
We should be better at stopping illegal immigrants getting in rather than going on wild goose chases once they're here.
Absolutely Sam but that's dodging the question of what we do with the large number of illegals who are already here.
We either grant an amnesty or we try to catch and deport them. What do you think?
Difficult question to answer, I am not completely sure.
I wouldn't grant an amnesty. I don't think it's worth trying to catch people either.
Maybe if any illegal immigrant is caught breaking the law they get double the standard fine or sentence? Then deported?
I guess if people are here illegally but not causing any aggro, the effect of living with the worry of instant deportation if they are rumbled should be enough stress.
And zero tolerance/instant deportation regardless if any family they have gained as a result of being here illegally
@GeoffM made a superb and grimly funny point re this sort type of hyperbole on FPT
"MarkSenior: Can you see any difference between today in this country and the SS stopping people and asking them to prove they are not Jewish"
Actually you are right. Although the authorities haven't actually started raping, starving, gassing and conducting genetic experiments on illegal immigrants yet it's only a matter of days. Maybe mere hours.
The Tories could make this more official by creating statute. To save them time, they should just copy the "pass laws" of apartheid era South Africa.
What a ridiculous point. There is , thankfully, no comparison between apartheid South Africa and modern Britain and to make that claim is frankly idiotic.
Tim, the do stops at my tube station all the time - drugs, weapons, fare-dodgers. It's normal, keeps things safe and I support it. I've been pulled over myself. Dog sniffs you. Not a big deal.
But that's not the point of this, is it? It's to open up 'removal' as a political flank and force Labour and the Lib Dems to say what they'd do. It'll be interesting to find out...
It's not the same, a weapons check etc... is for the safety of passengers on the tube or to ensure people are paying their fares. Stopping brown and black people at train and tube stations to ask them for ID and proof they are UK citizens is disgusting. We don't have ID cards in the UK because there is no popular support for them, Labour tried and failed for years to get them through their own benches, before that Michael Howard tried and failed as Home Sec to get ID cards on the statue book. If the government want people to carry around "papers" or ID cards that can be spot checked at any time by law enforcement officers then they need to pass legislation through Parliament, not hide behind bullsh*t anti-terrorism laws which they promised to reform when they came into power in 2010.
in the absence of an "I agree" button, can I just say I agree wholeheartedly. A lot of the anti-terrorist legislation needs to be repealed urgently as it is too easy to abuse by the police.
So if you are randomly stopped by the plod on a Friday night for drunken driving between 0000 and 0400 - are you appalled?
Most D&D drivers are found then. And people who are driving drunks are middle aged white men and youngsters IIRC. Should they feel aggrieved because the police stop them more often as a result?
There are lots of reasons why characteristics are used by the police to group likely suspects. Your skin colour and style of beard may have something to do with it.
Well done, you avoided the question. I expected nothing less of course.
Plato will support and justify any Conservative policy however abhorrent it is . Of course if it had been Labour policy she would have been equally strident in condemning it .
Of course in this case it was something that happened under Labour too.
When did Labour carry out "search and ask" in tube stations ? Making raids in the middle of night on intelligence that someone was smuggling illegals is different. It is specific and not random. If you are talking about SUS law in Brixton etc. it started well before 1997 [ in the 80's ] and was , in fact, greatly reduced in the noughties !
Comments
As I posted last night I wouldnt be surprised to find out that most of the arrests are due to people not knowing their rights and being intimidated into doing or saying something that gives the officials cause for arrest.
I admire your tenacity here - but why do you bother? It's designed to trap you in a web of half-truths and justifying yourself not the person who rubbishes your opinion.
Just make your point without reference and we can all have our 2p.
I really hope Unite make an issue of this.
I really, really do.
False memory syndrome is Ed Balls recollection of Labours Economic History 2005-10 and "Jack W is 109" was a bloody great party .... I mis-remember it well !!
We don't do ID checks in this country, it is not a legal requirement to be carrying "papers" and quite frankly this is a disgusting abuse of our freedoms by the government. If they want to do this then pass ID card laws through Parliament and see how far it gets.
Are you saying most illegal immigrants aren't from a different racial group to the one predominant in the UK?
I repeat sub samples are not an imperfect tool , individual sub samples are useless .
Mass immigration or the welfare state? Because we may not be able to have both
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/08/mass-immigration-or-the-welfare-state-because-we-may-not-be-able-to-have-both/
But that's not the point of this, is it? It's to open up 'removal' as a political flank and force Labour and the Lib Dems to say what they'd do. It'll be interesting to find out...
Most likely Secondary-Legislation or an Enabling Act. Probably based on some poorly drafted piece of shyte such as the Anti-Terrorism laws that Labour passed. Just as legislation has been misused for checking bins or school applicants so I am sure the case applies here.
What is your view on the rule-of-law? Do you support positive handling of criminal behaviour where skin-pigment is a factor...?
Mainly to ourselves, but dangerous nonetheless.
Regarding the Ukrainian's incidents: I wonder how the bomber felt when he realised that one of his blasts was not discovered for a few weeks? It must've dented his pride a bit when he had to tell the police where it had gone off (allegedly).
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/416008/Third-explosion-at-mosque-Two-Ukrainian-men-questioned-by-counter-terrorism-officers
The economic data is the real body blow to labour. No wonder Ballsie wants Mili's job. Labour's economic brief is starting to look like being Saddam's information minister....
Interesting calls to @bbcasiannetwork on immigration spot checks, as many people supporting them as objecting so far. http://www.bbc.co.uk/asiannetwork/on-air …
Had I wished to show the lib dems facing wipe out this is the poll I would use. It's just another poll to throw in there but it's focus on marginals is what distinguishes it from the rest.
Someone like Portillo isn't my cup of tea, but I bet he'd gain more traction in the marginals than say a Chris Grayling or Theresa May or George Osborne, or a really good centre-right communicator like Dan Hannan.
*I know this sounds bonkers but as a rugby coach I often ask the views of retired coaches who watch us play. It's amazing what they see that I won't necessarily see, so rammed is my head up the arse of all the peripheral things going on around me.
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-08-02/coventry-city-football-club-goes-into-liquidation/
Being an illegal immigrant is well illegal. I worked at DWP when the terrorism threat was high and two of my white middle aged dull suited colleagues were stopped at Tube stations and searched.
It was clearly a load of PC tosh to show the plod weren't *racial profiling*. Why the police can't profile is beyond me - it not *racist* its looking at a body of data and saying people who fit these criteria are more likely to do X. If they happen to come from largely sunny countries along the way is neither here nor there.
They do it all the time for paedos or serial killers or the Dunblane sorts and we don't see a load of hoo-haa against men who live with their mothers/in bedrooms and have no friends offline.
The HO or police have the data and its not exactly surprising that those who hail from certain countries/look like they do and live in areas with lots of illegal immigrants aren't rubbing shoulders with similar sorts.
Sorry to be pedantic, but it's only disgusting if they aren't stopping any white people
He hasn't asked me a question!!
I have no evidence but I don;t think we should accept it as gospel just because Doreen says it.
The Football League really should throw us out now, a 15 point penalty is probably not enough.
Plato I've heard that financial advisors target people who are rich.
Clear and blatant 'wealth profiling'.
I'm amused to see that Roger has, with characteristic elan, chosen today of all days to remind us all that I correctly pointed out that Osborne's judgement on the macro-economic positioning was near-perfect, even if he has misquoted me slightly.
start worrying Neil, in this hot sunshine people with lobster red skin are just advertising they're Irish.
Glad you stood your ground. It'd be helpful for the debate on stop and search (regarding illegal immigration) if we had stats around the areas such immigrants generally live and the proportion that come from X, Y and Z. If most of them are, say, Samoans who live in mostly black areas then it makes more sense to stop a relatively high number of black people. On the other hand, if most of them are Poles who live in mostly white areas, it'd make more sense to mostly check whites.
She isn't asking me to, correct, but you are. For me her opinion carries no more weight than any other lay person in Britain.
What price will you offer me on Gordon Entwiatle retaining Burnley?
You sound like someone with a valid ticket complaining when the inspectors ask you to show your ticket. Get off your high horse and let them do their job of catching the fare dodgers.
Most Caucasians here in the UK are mostly from Eastern EU and therefore legally here. Some will be here legally from Oz or NZ or the USA.
The vast majority of those who are Caucasian will therefore be here legally or be a minority of overstayers - and they should be deported.
So that leaves everyone from sunnier countries be they African or Asian who have no EU right to be here unless they happen to be French and Morrocan descent for example. It's not hard to deduce that most illegal immigrants aren't Caucasian and therefore have deeper tans as natural intended because that's where they hail from.
What the f8ck are the authorities supposed to do?
How many centrist people who might vote Tory are put off as a result ?
Richard Nabavi has avoided this burning topic as far as I can see. He is a sensible Tory. I am not suggesting he would take his votes elsewhere. But I don't think he would be very comfortable. I could be wrong.
It's a disgusting abuse of our freedoms whoever is being stopped IMO, but the pretty blatant targeting of non-whites just puts this idea of spot checks even further into that territory. It is not a legal requirement for a British citizen to carry any form of ID, and one does not have to be produced on demand to a law enforcement officer. That they were hiding behind some anti-terror rubbish (as the officer who stopped me said, at least) just points to how the government are abusing our freedoms.
I don't get how it could work? If I were stopped and asked to prove I was legally entitled to be here I couldn't do it... Surely any illegal immigrant cold just say they dont carry ID with them?
I'm not in favour of stopping randoms in this way, but if it happens then surely makes sense to stop people who look like they might originate from countries that a big number of illegal immigrants come from? I don't know where that is, but if its Sub Saharan Africa, then it makes sense to stop more black people, if its Iceland , New Zealand, Russia and Australia, makes sense to stop virtually no black people
Thr whole thing smacks of shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted anyway, we should be better at stopping illegal immigrants getting in rather than going on wild goose chases once they're here.
Tim, when you say 'white people' how are you defining them?
"when the provos were going full blast in the 80s I used to get stopped when travelling between Britain and Ireland at Uni terms - young single bloke doing lots of trips . Do you think young Asian men should have been stopped in equal numbers for Irish terrorism just in case it upset me ?"
My best friend was a red haired lady who's surname was Kelly - she was stopped at the border as a matter of routine. I don't recall any outrage here.
This whole thing is bizarre - if white middle aged women with cats were to pop up as the most likely to buy Whiskas - does that makes the police biased or just following the data?
Absolutely Sam but that's dodging the question of what we do with the large number of illegals who are already here.
We either grant an amnesty or we try to catch and deport them. What do you think?
"A man tried to smuggle his pet turtle through security in Guangzhou Baiyun International Airport by hiding it in a KFC hamburger.
The incident occurred on the morning of July 29, when a man, surnamed Li, was about to board China Southern Airlines flight 345 to Beijing, Guangzhou Daily reported. As Li passed through airport security, X-ray screening machines detected a few “odd protrusions” sticking out of a KFC burger that the man had packed in his bag.
Airport staff determined that the protrusions looked suspiciously like turtle limbs, and asked to inspect Li’s luggage. “There’s no turtle in there, just a hamburger,” Li reportedly insisted. “There’s nothing special to see inside.”
Li finally acquiesced to an inspection after repeated requests from airport staff, who uncovered the pet turtle hidden inside the burger. When asked why he had devised this strange idea, Li said that he had only wanted to travel together with his “beloved” turtle.
After staff patiently explained that turtles could not be smuggled on board the plane, Li reluctantly agreed to allow a friend to care for his pet while he was away. A few amused Sina Weibo users commented on the story after it went live, and most said that Li’s affection for his turtle was cute. One user, however, questioned Li’s logic for stuffing his pet into a burger and then sending it through an airport screening machine.
“That poor turtle!” the netizen wrote. “It had to absorb all those X-rays!” http://www.scmp.com/news/china-insider/article/1293310/man-tries-smuggle-turtle-plane-hiding-it-hamburger
You read it here first.
Tory 2005 election strategy. Was it successful ?
Most D&D drivers are found then. And people who are driving drunks are middle aged white men and youngsters IIRC. Should they feel aggrieved because the police stop them more often as a result?
There are lots of reasons why characteristics are used by the police to group likely suspects. Your skin colour and style of beard may have something to do with it.
I have no doubt that it is handled clumsily very often.
As for profiling, I am a fan, if done sensibly. When you come through customs on eg. the Eurostar there is always a group of sour-faced gentlemen and women staring at disembarking passengers. They are of course profiling (and stop hardly anyone). The fact is, they are better at it than Plod at Shepherds Bush tube station.
Mass illegal immigration is just another New Labour mess that the Coalition has the sickening task of clearing up.
Enough of your wretched sanctimony.
That's a good point Mark.
Now the public are seeing the corollary of not granting amnesties, perhaps there will be more support for amnesty.
The other issue, which you have raised, is that the police don't seem to care about the law, they want "results". The fact that I told them to do one and went on my merry way tells me that they probably know that what they are doing wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny, and yet, there they are, doing it anyway.
If you want to be outraged - be outraged. No stats will sate your view that Evil Torees are Racist Bigots.
Do you want the police to look at the most likely sorts to have done a crime or a random cross sample of the populace so no one gets offended?
"Black coffeee was banned."
Excuse me for being pedantic but you claimed that some PB Tories believed that black coffee was banned.
Now I can quite believe that they eat babies, probably for breakfast and for the midday meal that they strangely call "lunch", but if they believed that black coffee was banned, they really shouldn't be out on their own. You should let us know who they are so that we can get them some help.
Surely you didn't just make this up?
I made the point that profiling is adjusted for the crime.
Be it middle aged white blokes or where you hail from ethnically. It's pretty hard to be Caucasian and be an illegal immigrant.
What a ridiculous point. There is , thankfully, no comparison between apartheid South Africa and modern Britain and to make that claim is frankly idiotic.
If they really wanted to catch illegals, they should make raids on cleaning firms who pay next to nothing to clean offices in the middle of the night. How does anyone think our offices get cleaned ? Who do think offers to get your car get hand washed ?
Difficult question to answer, I am not completely sure.
I wouldn't grant an amnesty. I don't think it's worth trying to catch people either.
Maybe if any illegal immigrant is caught breaking the law they get double the standard fine or sentence? Then deported?
I guess if people are here illegally but not causing any aggro, the effect of living with the worry of instant deportation if they are rumbled should be enough stress.
And zero tolerance/instant deportation regardless if any family they have gained as a result of being here illegally
"MarkSenior: Can you see any difference between today in this country and the SS stopping people and asking them to prove they are not Jewish"
Actually you are right. Although the authorities haven't actually started raping, starving, gassing and conducting genetic experiments on illegal immigrants yet it's only a matter of days. Maybe mere hours.
Already our resident railway expert Gruppenführer Doctor of Death Prasannan is toiling away converting his beloved trains into cattle-trucks, etc etc. Arbeit macht frei, old chap. http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/post/quote/484/Comment_89723
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