I'm sure its been pointed out - but all the data is within MOE of 45 for 'Right' and 43 for 'wrong'. OGH will be giving the Daily Mail's reporting of polls a good name yet......
It reminds me a bit of the February 1974 election when Ted Heath went to the country at the time of his 3 Day Week on a Who rules Britain? platform.He was unable to sustain that even in a three week campaign - never mind the seven weeks we are now faced with. I actually sense that Brexit is already less dominant than a week ago
Heath was up against Wilson and a Labour front bench that featured the likes of Healey, Callaghan, Shore, Foot, Jenkins and Williams. May isn't.
Crossland, Crossman, Castle and Mason. WTF happened to this party?
Gordon Brown happened.
When Labour came to power in 1997, they still had big beasts: Blair, Brown, Reid, Blunkett, Cook, Prescott, Mowlam, Straw, Dewar - for example. By 2010, they didn't. Nor did they have anything like the same quality coming through the next generation.
Every day Corbyn becomes more of a liability and today the communist party have endorsed him.
And in the meantime the PM keeps out of the limelight working on the manifesto and having photos taken with her candidates.
I think you must love Theresa May you support her every action.Even the mundane .
My wife and I are both impressed with Theresa May as we want a solid competent politician leading our Country.
If the narrative continues to June 8th many many millions will agree all across the UK
Also having a large Scots family we want the Union to be preserved and both Theresa May and Ruth Davidson are champions of the union of the UK
But you were probably going to vote for her anyway. Labour needs to counter that by pushing strongly the ' You cannot believe a word of what she says' message. Would Labour be able to call her a liar in a PPB? I am thinking of 'She lied about A - She lied about B - How can we believe anything she says?' Go to town and make her dishonesty a central campaign issue!
With respect Justin calling someone a liar, especially someone who is popular, is another vote closer
Every day Corbyn becomes more of a liability and today the communist party have endorsed him.
And in the meantime the PM keeps out of the limelight working on the manifesto and having photos taken with her candidates.
I think you must love Theresa May you support her every action.Even the mundane .
My wife and I are both impressed with Theresa May as we want a solid competent politician leading our Country.
If the narrative continues to June 8th many many millions will agree all across the UK
Also having a large Scots family we want the Union to be preserved and both Theresa May and Ruth Davidson are champions of the union of the UK
But you were probably going to vote for her anyway. Labour needs to counter that by pushing strongly the ' You cannot believe a word of what she says' message. Would Labour be able to call her a liar in a PPB? I am thinking of 'She lied about A - She lied about B - How can we believe anything she says?' Go to town and make her dishonesty a central campaign issue!
With respect Justin calling someone a liar, especially someone who is popular, is another vote closer
I'm sure its been pointed out - but all the data is within MOE of 45 for 'Right' and 43 for 'wrong'. OGH will be giving the Daily Mail's reporting of polls a good name yet......
OGH 'forgets' the basic rules of reporting polls when it suits. This tracker is interesting precisely because of its lack of movement.
See, that wasn't difficult. Who knows, the SNP might suggest something constructive over the 'rape clause' yet, rather than just whine about it. I'm not holding my breath.....
Every day Corbyn becomes more of a liability and today the communist party have endorsed him.
And in the meantime the PM keeps out of the limelight working on the manifesto and having photos taken with her candidates.
I think you must love Theresa May you support her every action.Even the mundane .
My wife and I are both impressed with Theresa May as we want a solid competent politician leading our Country.
If the narrative continues to June 8th many many millions will agree all across the UK
Also having a large Scots family we want the Union to be preserved and both Theresa May and Ruth Davidson are champions of the union of the UK
But you were probably going to vote for her anyway. Labour needs to counter that by pushing strongly the ' You cannot believe a word of what she says' message. Would Labour be able to call her a liar in a PPB? I am thinking of 'She lied about A - She lied about B - How can we believe anything she says?' Go to town and make her dishonesty a central campaign issue!
With respect Justin calling someone a liar, especially someone who is popular, is another vote closer
Not if there is the evidence to back it up!
You are being silly now
There is no point in saying it if there is no evidence! I am suggesting that there is such evidence.
It reminds me a bit of the February 1974 election when Ted Heath went to the country at the time of his 3 Day Week on a Who rules Britain? platform.He was unable to sustain that even in a three week campaign - never mind the seven weeks we are now faced with. I actually sense that Brexit is already less dominant than a week ago
Heath was up against Wilson and a Labour front bench that featured the likes of Healey, Callaghan, Shore, Foot, Jenkins and Williams. May isn't.
Crossland, Crossman, Castle and Mason. WTF happened to this party?
Gordon Brown happened.
When Labour came to power in 1997, they still had big beasts: Blair, Brown, Reid, Blunkett, Cook, Prescott, Mowlam, Straw, Dewar - for example. By 2010, they didn't. Nor did they have anything like the same quality coming through the next generation.
A bit simplistic to blame the whole thing on one man? There is a distinct lack of talent across the political spectrum, reflecting the rise of the student politico-lobbyist-Spad generation of nothing-but-politics careerists and the corresponding decline in successful businesspeople, lawyers, farmers and trade unionists deciding to go into politics in middle-age.
While movements of =< 2 % are well within MOE and probably not worth the oxygen ...
ICM's last polls
Con 48% Lab 27% LD 10% April 24th Con 46% Lab 25% LibDem 11% April 19th (after announcement) Con 44% Labour 26% LD 10% April 18th (all fieldwork collected before announcement)
I might have missed something, but the only non-MOE change there is ...
The scientist in me is also telling you that 2 data points do not make a trend.
Every day Corbyn becomes more of a liability and today the communist party have endorsed him.
And in the meantime the PM keeps out of the limelight working on the manifesto and having photos taken with her candidates.
I think you must love Theresa May you support her every action.Even the mundane .
My wife and I are both impressed with Theresa May as we want a solid competent politician leading our Country.
If the narrative continues to June 8th many many millions will agree all across the UK
Also having a large Scots family we want the Union to be preserved and both Theresa May and Ruth Davidson are champions of the union of the UK
But you were probably going to vote for her anyway. Labour needs to counter that by pushing strongly the ' You cannot believe a word of what she says' message. Would Labour be able to call her a liar in a PPB? I am thinking of 'She lied about A - She lied about B - How can we believe anything she says?' Go to town and make her dishonesty a central campaign issue!
With respect Justin calling someone a liar, especially someone who is popular, is another vote closer
Not if there is the evidence to back it up!
You are being silly now
There is no point in saying it if there is no evidence! I am suggesting that there is such evidence.
Every day Corbyn becomes more of a liability and today the communist party have endorsed him.
And in the meantime the PM keeps out of the limelight working on the manifesto and having photos taken with her candidates.
I think you must love Theresa May you support her every action.Even the mundane .
My wife and I are both impressed with Theresa May as we want a solid competent politician leading our Country.
If the narrative continues to June 8th many many millions will agree all across the UK
Also having a large Scots family we want the Union to be preserved and both Theresa May and Ruth Davidson are champions of the union of the UK
But you were probably going to vote for her anyway. Labour needs to counter that by pushing strongly the ' You cannot believe a word of what she says' message. Would Labour be able to call her a liar in a PPB? I am thinking of 'She lied about A - She lied about B - How can we believe anything she says?' Go to town and make her dishonesty a central campaign issue!
With respect Justin calling someone a liar, especially someone who is popular, is another vote closer
Not if there is the evidence to back it up!
Have you seen the polling on the election decision? People know May changed her mind. Some of them think it was for base motives, some for noble ones. Some think she lied. Yet they overwhelmingly support the decision.....
While movements of =< 2 % are well within MOE and probably not worth the oxygen ...
ICM's last polls
Con 48% Lab 27% LD 10% April 24th Con 46% Lab 25% LibDem 11% April 19th (after announcement) Con 44% Labour 26% LD 10% April 18th (all fieldwork collected before announcement)
I might have missed something, but the only non-MOE change there is ...
The scientist in me is also telling you that 2 data points do not make a trend.
Have we had a new ICM poll?
Have just had a look at Mike's Twitter and here's the answer
The Tories losing share in safe seats is great news for them. My calc has them on 80% in South Holland, best for them those votes go elsewhere.
It's very unusual for a Conservative candidate to get more than about 68% in any constituency no matter how safe it is, and IMO that's likely to continue at this election. Therefore they won't get much of an increase in the seats where they're already near that level like Maidenhead and Beaconsfield. As you say, that means they must be doing better elsewhere.
That's like the zero-bound issue we had with the Lib Dems last time which suggested that they simply couldn't keep as many of their seats as was expected. Why do the Tories have such an upper bound, and is there a structural reason why is it lower than the Labour upper bound (cf Liverpool Walton, East Ham etc)
My explanation: very safe Conserative seats are less tribal than very safe Labour seats. Maidenhead and Beaconsfield have more left-wing voters than Liverpool Walton and Bootle have (economically) right-wing voters. [Plenty of social conservatives in those two seats of course].
Random thought - I wonder if a small part of May's appeal to the older demographic is she's a politician who clearly doesn't dye her hair - its the colour nature intended. Not something that can be said of many other leading female politicians (and almost certainly a significant chunk of male ones too). What other female politicians in their late fifties/early sixties can say the same (or indeed younger ones whose hair has miraculously changed colour over the years)? Subliminal authenticity?
It reminds me a bit of the February 1974 election when Ted Heath went to the country at the time of his 3 Day Week on a Who rules Britain? platform.He was unable to sustain that even in a three week campaign - never mind the seven weeks we are now faced with. I actually sense that Brexit is already less dominant than a week ago
Heath was up against Wilson and a Labour front bench that featured the likes of Healey, Callaghan, Shore, Foot, Jenkins and Williams. May isn't.
Yes but they were as split on everything as today.However Wilson had that common touch with the pipe and coat even though it was total bollox a bit like May saying she is for the workers on boards.
It reminds me a bit of the February 1974 election when Ted Heath went to the country at the time of his 3 Day Week on a Who rules Britain? platform.He was unable to sustain that even in a three week campaign - never mind the seven weeks we are now faced with. I actually sense that Brexit is already less dominant than a week ago
Heath was up against Wilson and a Labour front bench that featured the likes of Healey, Callaghan, Shore, Foot, Jenkins and Williams. May isn't.
Crossland, Crossman, Castle and Mason. WTF happened to this party?
Gordon Brown happened.
When Labour came to power in 1997, they still had big beasts: Blair, Brown, Reid, Blunkett, Cook, Prescott, Mowlam, Straw, Dewar - for example. By 2010, they didn't. Nor did they have anything like the same quality coming through the next generation.
A bit simplistic to blame the whole thing on one man? There is a distinct lack of talent across the political spectrum, reflecting the rise of the student politico-lobbyist-Spad generation of nothing-but-politics careerists and the corresponding decline in successful businesspeople, lawyers, farmers and trade unionists deciding to go into politics in middle-age.
Too true. The best leader the Tories never had (Ken Clarke) is over 75. Denis Healey (the best leader Labour never had) died at 98 in 2015.
But of course, voters rate politicians lower than estate agents. Maybe they get the politicians they deserve? Rather a tricky vicious circle.
Following OGH and Peter Hitchens (who rips off Enoch with his metaphor I believe)
"This menace has been worrying the Cabinet for some months, as it has become clear it will not go away. And it is a far better explanation of the Prime Minister’s change of heart than her rather weird and incoherent speech in Downing Street. I happen to think she is a naturally truthful person and meant what she said when she previously declared several times that she was going to stay on till 2020. But the expenses allegations, which started as a cloud on the horizon no bigger than a man’s hand, have grown and grown. I suspect her advisers have been telling her she cannot risk them coming into the open late in a Parliament when, perhaps, the economy is not doing well, or EU negotiations are going badly or Labour has a new leader."
While movements of =< 2 % are well within MOE and probably not worth the oxygen ...
ICM's last polls
Con 48% Lab 27% LD 10% April 24th Con 46% Lab 25% LibDem 11% April 19th (after announcement) Con 44% Labour 26% LD 10% April 18th (all fieldwork collected before announcement)
I might have missed something, but the only non-MOE change there is ...
The scientist in me is also telling you that 2 data points do not make a trend.
Have we had a new ICM poll?
Have just had a look at Mike's Twitter and here's the answer
Random thought - I wonder if a small part of May's appeal to the older demographic is she's a politician who clearly doesn't dye her hair - its the colour nature intended. Not something that can be said of many other leading female politicians (and almost certainly a significant chunk of male ones too). What other female politicians in their late fifties/early sixties can say the same (or indeed younger ones whose hair has miraculously changed colour over the years)? Subliminal authenticity?
Was it Gerhard Schroder that threatened to sue a journo when they asked if he colored his hair?
It reminds me a bit of the February 1974 election when Ted Heath went to the country at the time of his 3 Day Week on a Who rules Britain? platform.He was unable to sustain that even in a three week campaign - never mind the seven weeks we are now faced with. I actually sense that Brexit is already less dominant than a week ago
Heath was up against Wilson and a Labour front bench that featured the likes of Healey, Callaghan, Shore, Foot, Jenkins and Williams. May isn't.
Crossland, Crossman, Castle and Mason. WTF happened to this party?
Gordon Brown happened.
When Labour came to power in 1997, they still had big beasts: Blair, Brown, Reid, Blunkett, Cook, Prescott, Mowlam, Straw, Dewar - for example. By 2010, they didn't. Nor did they have anything like the same quality coming through the next generation.
A bit simplistic to blame the whole thing on one man? There is a distinct lack of talent across the political spectrum, reflecting the rise of the student politico-lobbyist-Spad generation of nothing-but-politics careerists and the corresponding decline in successful businesspeople, lawyers, farmers and trade unionists deciding to go into politics in middle-age.
Read some of the biographies of Brown's contemporaries within Labour. He and his minions (inc. one Ed Balls) would destroy anyone who they saw as a rival within the party to Brown.
They saw off an entire generation of potential leaders, and left us with the likes of ... Ed Miliband.
Labour needs new blood just at the time the electorate are going to prevent them getting a transfusion.
Every day Corbyn becomes more of a liability and today the communist party have endorsed him.
And in the meantime the PM keeps out of the limelight working on the manifesto and having photos taken with her candidates.
I think you must love Theresa May you support her every action.Even the mundane .
My wife and I are both impressed with Theresa May as we want a solid competent politician leading our Country.
If the narrative continues to June 8th many many millions will agree all across the UK
Also having a large Scots family we want the Union to be preserved and both Theresa May and Ruth Davidson are champions of the union of the UK
But you were probably going to vote for her anyway. Labour needs to counter that by pushing strongly the ' You cannot believe a word of what she says' message. Would Labour be able to call her a liar in a PPB? I am thinking of 'She lied about A - She lied about B - How can we believe anything she says?' Go to town and make her dishonesty a central campaign issue!
With respect Justin calling someone a liar, especially someone who is popular, is another vote closer
Not if there is the evidence to back it up!
You are being silly now
There is no point in saying it if there is no evidence! I am suggesting that there is such evidence.
Why not try putting it in a way which is short, simple and which will cut through and show it here?
Calling her a liar and inviting the public to smack my bitch up (to borrow your language) will otherwise just tie into a view of Corbyn and his acolytes which it appears the public already has.
@CJTerry: Labour has (so far) never lost a general election in Wales during the period of universal suffrage, btw.
Never mind universal suffrage (i.e. 1929), the Tories have never won once since the days of public ballots have they? IIRC, the last general election the Tories won in Wales was 1859.
The Scottish Liberal Democrat leader was doing a photo-op at a farm in Kelty, Fife last week when one of the rams took a dislike to him and charged. Thankfully, Mr Rennie sits next to the SNP backbenchers at Holyrood so he has experience of dealing with sheep.
Every day Corbyn becomes more of a liability and today the communist party have endorsed him.
And in the meantime the PM keeps out of the limelight working on the manifesto and having photos taken with her candidates.
I think you must love Theresa May you support her every action.Even the mundane .
My wife and I are both impressed with Theresa May as we want a solid competent politician leading our Country.
If the narrative continues to June 8th many many millions will agree all across the UK
Also having a large Scots family we want the Union to be preserved and both Theresa May and Ruth Davidson are champions of the union of the UK
But you were probably going to vote for her anyway. Labour needs to counter that by pushing strongly the ' You cannot believe a word of what she says' message. Would Labour be able to call her a liar in a PPB? I am thinking of 'She lied about A - She lied about B - How can we believe anything she says?' Go to town and make her dishonesty a central campaign issue!
With respect Justin calling someone a liar, especially someone who is popular, is another vote closer
Not if there is the evidence to back it up!
If your wife says she doesn't fancy going out for a meal, then changes her mind, is she a liar or has she just thought about it some more and changed her mind.
Changing your mind and lying are different. But you know this. Sadly it's all you've got to cling to. Which is pretty funny from my perspective.
On the topic of wives changing their minds, for the first time ever (she has always voted Labour or LD) the good lady is voting Tory. primarily because she feels the LD's are irrelevant and Corbyn is utterly incompetent.
Wow! On stilts. Labour are going to get utterly trashed. There's something truly cultural going on here - not mererly political.
Before GE2015 I said that there must be some unwind back to Scottish Labour: there's no way that people who had voted Labour all their lives were going to change. The polls might not be wrong as an indication of intention, but they did not fully represent what people would do in the solitude of the polling station.
Boy, was I wrong. And since then Scottish Labour have continued to sink. I'm not going to be brave enough to say the same thing about Labour in Wales.
The polls are right, and they're going to get hammered. And as with Scottish Labour, I see no way back.
I'm still in shock. Labour have completely lost Scotland. Now they look like they've lost Wales too! Dear me. The Midlands look like a bloodbath for them. They are retreating into Islington. The rich, lefty, luvvie, artsy bits. And nothing else. I think the WWC / Identity Politics alliance within Labour has finally fractured. The WWC are peeling away. We're going to need a new centre left.
Mr. Jim, I'm quite worried the Conservatives will end up with a majority of ludicrous proportions.
Not least because I'll need to update my battlefield list (at the moment -100 for the Battle of Adrianople is the worst result). The initial list only went to Cannae (-70) and I thought that the end of credible losses.
Mr. Jim, I'm quite worried the Conservatives will end up with a majority of ludicrous proportions.
Not least because I'll need to update my battlefield list (at the moment -100 for the Battle of Adrianople is the worst result). The initial list only went to Cannae (-70) and I thought that the end of credible losses.
@CJTerry: Labour has (so far) never lost a general election in Wales during the period of universal suffrage, btw.
Never mind universal suffrage (i.e. 1929), the Tories have never won once since the days of public ballots have they? IIRC, the last general election the Tories won in Wales was 1859.
I said since the Civil War earlier, I guessed since Charles I and bucket boots were in, but I suppose the US one counts!
Random thought - I wonder if a small part of May's appeal to the older demographic is she's a politician who clearly doesn't dye her hair - its the colour nature intended. Not something that can be said of many other leading female politicians (and almost certainly a significant chunk of male ones too). What other female politicians in their late fifties/early sixties can say the same (or indeed younger ones whose hair has miraculously changed colour over the years)? Subliminal authenticity?
Was it Gerhard Schroder that threatened to sue a journo when they asked if he colored his hair?
On the topic of wives changing their minds, for the first time ever (she has always voted Labour or LD) the good lady is voting Tory. primarily because she feels the LD's are irrelevant and Corbyn is utterly incompetent.
Mr. Jim, I'm quite worried the Conservatives will end up with a majority of ludicrous proportions.
Not least because I'll need to update my battlefield list (at the moment -100 for the Battle of Adrianople is the worst result). The initial list only went to Cannae (-70) and I thought that the end of credible losses.
This is the loss of Constantinople and the beginning of six centuries of strife
Mr. Jim, I'm quite worried the Conservatives will end up with a majority of ludicrous proportions.
Not least because I'll need to update my battlefield list (at the moment -100 for the Battle of Adrianople is the worst result). The initial list only went to Cannae (-70) and I thought that the end of credible losses.
We're into Mboto Gorge territory now it seems.
Labour activists armed with Kiwi fruit and guava halves.
Mr. Jim, I'm quite worried the Conservatives will end up with a majority of ludicrous proportions.
Not least because I'll need to update my battlefield list (at the moment -100 for the Battle of Adrianople is the worst result). The initial list only went to Cannae (-70) and I thought that the end of credible losses.
We're into Mboto Gorge territory now it seems.
I had a bit-of-a-laugh bet on 450+ Tory seats earlier.
Mr. Jim, I'm quite worried the Conservatives will end up with a majority of ludicrous proportions.
Not least because I'll need to update my battlefield list (at the moment -100 for the Battle of Adrianople is the worst result). The initial list only went to Cannae (-70) and I thought that the end of credible losses.
Carrhae?
The Teutoberg Forest?
Mind you those weren't quite terminal for the losing side.
Brexit and Corbyn have miraculously combined to unsplit the right (UKIP is fucked) and destroy Labour. It's a perfect storm. Lefties should all vote LibDem maybe? They're a halfway decent bunch and might offer some opposition.
Comments
When Labour came to power in 1997, they still had big beasts: Blair, Brown, Reid, Blunkett, Cook, Prescott, Mowlam, Straw, Dewar - for example. By 2010, they didn't. Nor did they have anything like the same quality coming through the next generation.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bygi8eZw-4q1Tm54TU02a3E3R0U/view
https://twitter.com/Patriccus/status/856518690359173121
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15241120.Union_leaders_call_on_Theresa_May_to_allow_Holyrood_a__bespoke__immigration_policy/?ref=mr&lp=7
See, that wasn't difficult. Who knows, the SNP might suggest something constructive over the 'rape clause' yet, rather than just whine about it. I'm not holding my breath.....
https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/856480887067873280
Does ICM still do phone polls?
But how does that help Labour ?
Labour 33% (-2)
Conservative 28% (-1)
Plaid Cymru 13% (no change)
UKIP 13% (-1)
Liberal Democrats 9% (+2)
Others 2% (-1)
UKIP 12/1 Dagenham (It seems UKIP are running despite the Con being a Leaver... not so sure about this )
Others may spot value
https://www.skybet.com/politics/general-election-_-_-constituency-betting
Tories leading Labour by 10% in Wales, equal to losing 10 seats:
Where are the Lab-Con marginals in Scotland ?
It is a one seat strategy, and Labour aren't at the races in that seat.
How does this message help them in left leaning Glasgow. The man is just utterly inept.
But of course, voters rate politicians lower than estate agents. Maybe they get the politicians they deserve? Rather a tricky vicious circle.
http://www.itv.com/news/wales/2017-04-24/shock-poll-suggests-tories-ahead-in-wales/
Tories on 40% - ten point lead over Labour.
"This menace has been worrying the Cabinet for some months, as it has become clear it will not go away. And it is a far better explanation of the Prime Minister’s change of heart than her rather weird and incoherent speech in Downing Street. I happen to think she is a naturally truthful person and meant what she said when she previously declared several times that she was going to stay on till 2020.
But the expenses allegations, which started as a cloud on the horizon no bigger than a man’s hand, have grown and grown. I suspect her advisers have been telling her she cannot risk them coming into the open late in a Parliament when, perhaps, the economy is not doing well, or EU negotiations are going badly or Labour has a new leader."
http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2017/04/peter-hitchens-why-a-snap-election-ask-the-30-tories-facing-criminal-charges.html
They saw off an entire generation of potential leaders, and left us with the likes of ... Ed Miliband.
Labour needs new blood just at the time the electorate are going to prevent them getting a transfusion.
Calling her a liar and inviting the public to smack my bitch up (to borrow your language) will otherwise just tie into a view of Corbyn and his acolytes which it appears the public already has.
I think the best analogy would be the Red Wedding.
https://stephendaisley.com/2017/04/24/rennies-ram-raid-raised-a-laugh-but-his-lib-dems-must-be-taken-seriously/
Jeremy Corbyn MPVerified account
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Week one of our #GE2017 campaign got off to a flying start. Join us for week two → http://www.labour.org.uk/volunteering
Changing your mind and lying are different. But you know this. Sadly it's all you've got to cling to. Which is pretty funny from my perspective.
On the topic of wives changing their minds, for the first time ever (she has always voted Labour or LD) the good lady is voting Tory. primarily because she feels the LD's are irrelevant and Corbyn is utterly incompetent.
Boy, was I wrong. And since then Scottish Labour have continued to sink. I'm not going to be brave enough to say the same thing about Labour in Wales.
The polls are right, and they're going to get hammered. And as with Scottish Labour, I see no way back.
http://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2017/04/24/the-first-welsh-poll-of-the-general-election/
The Midlands look like a bloodbath for them.
They are retreating into Islington. The rich, lefty, luvvie, artsy bits. And nothing else.
I think the WWC / Identity Politics alliance within Labour has finally fractured. The WWC are peeling away.
We're going to need a new centre left.
Not least because I'll need to update my battlefield list (at the moment -100 for the Battle of Adrianople is the worst result). The initial list only went to Cannae (-70) and I thought that the end of credible losses.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1992700.stm
The biggest UKIP shares are in pretty much all the Labour held seats.
Now beginning to wonder...
Is there any actual mechanism for them to do that?
That's all Labour have left isn't it?
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/surge-in-betting-on-jeremy-corbyn-to-become-prime-minister-after-he-promises-four-extra-bank-holidays/ar-BBAgXX7?li=BBoPRmx&ocid=mailsignout
The Teutoberg Forest?
Mind you those weren't quite terminal for the losing side.
How about the Horns of Hattin?