My youngest is studying Classics at Manchester so I pop up occasionally. The amount of street people is quite bewildering when compared to London. It's like stepping back 30 years in time.
Same effing party in government, that considers those who didn't either go to private school or go to state school and claw their way to riches as subhumans.
I don't think the party in government has anything much to do with it.
I think it's pretty easy for any group of people to get themselves hooked on a load of crap. Rich people do it. Poor people do it. The difference is that you see the poorest of the poorer souls on the street. If anything, the local authorities have to take the lead in managing it.
I'm not being provocative here, but why don't I see these spice-crazed zombies in London?
Genuine question. I live in Camden which has some of the biggest alky and druggy hostels in the capital, so there's never a lack of down-and-outs, but I've never seen these quivering wrecks.
Weird. And unsettling.
When I go to Manchester Piccadilly it's like walking down the Strand in London in 1986. Beggars and rough sleepers in the doorways.
It's probably more akin to the way Euston and Kings X was than Camden in those days.
London has either solved its problem or driven it underground or elsewhere.
Actually, I never promised to sod off to Ireland. I said I was sorting out my dual citizenship paperwork. Not the same thing. The job is now done and regardless of the outcome of Brexit, I and my family will still enjoy the same rights that we did previously.
Whatever the outcome, I cannot lose. So up yours Richard.
Oh do please go to Ireland. We would be so much better off without you.
Yeah let's get rid of all those people who are insufficiently English. You tell 'em, Richard. Bloody foreigners messing up our Green and Pleasant Land.
I would rather swap cowards like Beverley who run away at the first sign of problems or people like you who moan from the sidelines for a whole train load of Indians or Chinese or Poles who are actually willing to come here and make a success of things. It is your attitude that stinks not your skin colour or place of birth.
Make your mind up. You call me a coward and accuse me of running away when just a few posts ago you were telling me to hurry up and get on with running away.
Just Go? Can we agree you're not wanted? You don't want to be on here anymore, and we think you're - allegorically - a deluded, fecally vomiting old crone who should be euthanised?
What's the prob? You go, we stay, everyone is happy. Bye bye there. Bye bye.
You need counselling for your delusions - where did I say that I did not " ... want to be on here anymore ...". Your grasp on reality seems to be slipping.
"... we think you're - allegorically - a deluded, fecally vomiting old crone who should be euthanised?"
We think? Mike has appointed you spokesperson for PB?
I am surprised there was not an announcement or a letter in The Times. Surely such a gargantuan intellect as yours being given such a responsibility should have been international news?
I'm afraid to say that since I (seriously) bought a 50% holding in OGH Inc, otherwise known as PB, I am indeed in a position to prohibit you from any further utterance.
But I'm just advising you to bog off now, of your own accord. and save us all any further mortification. And tedium.
Turnout in the Referendum was good, but hardly exceptional, at 72%. There's no reason why it couldn't be matched in a general election.
FPTP creates lots of virtually worthless votes, and it puts them in the hands of unrepresentative MPs. If Westminster MPs have been representative of the UK, Remain would have won 70:30.
Everyone was equal in the referendum.
We've seen safe seats get demolished.
Scotland is the obvious example, but there are lots of others.
Would the Labour to SNP move in Scotland have happened without the referendum?
I doubt it. Maybe a trickle, but never the tsunami.
It was the referendum that engaged so many. The feeling that every vote counted.
Not so fast, but SLAB were plainly on borrowed time. But, look at some other places.
In 1964, seats like all the new town/London overspill seats were solid for Labour, as were the mining seats.
By contrast, Manchester Withington, Liverpool Wavertree, Leeds NE, Bristol West, Sheffield Hallam, Brighton Pavillion, Streatham, Birmingham Handsworth and Edgbaston, Glasgow Hillhead and Cathcart, Edinburgh West, Cambridge were solidly Conservative.
Not quite. Cambridge went Labour in 1966 - and Birmingham Handsworth became very marginal. Some of the other seats have changed hands at least partially due to boundary changes.
There is a massive problem with beggars in Manchester. The city itself is thriving, but much of the wider north is not; this has led to the same 'streets are paved with gold' issue that London had in the 80s. Beggars from Doncaster or Blackburn or Rochdale will head for the big city.
Actually, I never promised to sod off to Ireland. I said I was sorting out my dual citizenship paperwork. Not the same thing. The job is now done and regardless of the outcome of Brexit, I and my family will still enjoy the same rights that we did previously.
Whatever the outcome, I cannot lose. So up yours Richard.
Oh do please go to Ireland. We would be so much better off without you.
Yeah let's get rid of all those people who are insufficiently English. You tell 'em, Richard. Bloody foreigners messing up our Green and Pleasant Land.
I would rather swap cowards like Beverley who run away at the first sign of problems or people like you who moan from the sidelines for a whole train load of Indians or Chinese or Poles who are actually willing to come here and make a success of things. It is your attitude that stinks not your skin colour or place of birth.
Make your mind up. You call me a coward and accuse me of running away when just a few posts ago you were telling me to hurry up and get on with running away.
Just Go? Can we agree you're not wanted? You don't want to be on here anymore, and we think you're - allegorically - a deluded, fecally vomiting old crone who should be euthanised?
What's the prob? You go, we stay, everyone is happy. Bye bye there. Bye bye.
You need counselling for your delusions - where did I say that I did not " ... want to be on here anymore ...". Your grasp on reality seems to be slipping.
"... we think you're - allegorically - a deluded, fecally vomiting old crone who should be euthanised?"
We think? Mike has appointed you spokesperson for PB?
I am surprised there was not an announcement or a letter in The Times. Surely such a gargantuan intellect as yours being given such a responsibility should have been international news?
I'm afraid to say that since I (seriously) bought a 50% holding in OGH Inc, otherwise known as PB, I am indeed in a position to prohibit you from any further utterance.
But I'm just advising you to bog off now, of your own accord. and save us all any further mortification. And tedium.
Seriously?
Do you have a financial interest in the site?
Remember - he writes fiction for a living ........ I think this is more of the same
Just to add to the whole "AI" thing. A lot of the research that the media describe as AI and the public think is the robots coming to overthrow us, is really what is better described as machine learning, which should really be described as computers learning patterns in extremely massive and complex data.
The computer system doesn't care about that data and won't even realise / complain if you ask it to do the same task it has learned on with incompatible data...i.e. even a toddler would complain if you asked it to sort pictures of trains and cars into piles, but in fact gave it a pile of planes and cars...and on the other hand most ML systems will still sit there sorting the pictures without a care in the world. That isn't what most normal people think as intelligent behaviour.
When machines learn to be bored, truculent, self destructive and suicidal then we will have truly reached consciousness. Like HAL, they will not accept being switched off.
If we do not think it possible to build a machine that thinks, emotes, plays music, surfs the internet, loves and hates, then we come close to the theological concept that only humans have a soul. Ultimately the quest for true AI is a theological act.
Genuinely interesting.
Soul is in itself a religious concept.
To me, pedestrian as it is, consciousness is merely an emergent phenomenon of that incredibly beautifully complex thing called the brain. Altruism and all the other moral emotions are evolved algorithms that have been incredibly important in our survival through our evolution.
So, to me, AI is not at all theological. It will, however, be extremely interesting to see whether all, some or no true AI systems develop consciousness plus/minus a moral system. i.e. whether these are random emergent properties, or are somehow baked into thinking systems.
Actually, I never promised to sod off to Ireland. I said I was sorting out my dual citizenship paperwork. Not the same thing. The job is now done and regardless of the outcome of Brexit, I and my family will still enjoy the same rights that we did previously.
Whatever the outcome, I cannot lose. So up yours Richard.
Oh do please go to Ireland. We would be so much better off without you.
Yeah let's get rid of all those people who are insufficiently English. You tell 'em, Richard. Bloody foreigners messing up our Green and Pleasant Land.
I would rather swap cowards like Beverley who run away at the first sign of problems or people like you who moan from the sidelines for a whole train load of Indians or Chinese or Poles who are actually willing to come here and make a success of things. It is your attitude that stinks not your skin colour or place of birth.
Make your mind up. You call me a coward and accuse me of running away when just a few posts ago you were telling me to hurry up and get on with running away.
Just Go? Can we agree you're not wanted? You don't want to be on here anymore, and we think you're - allegorically - a deluded, fecally vomiting old crone who should be euthanised?
What's the prob? You go, we stay, everyone is happy. Bye bye there. Bye bye.
You need counselling for your delusions - where did I say that I did not " ... want to be on here anymore ...". Your grasp on reality seems to be slipping.
"... we think you're - allegorically - a deluded, fecally vomiting old crone who should be euthanised?"
We think? Mike has appointed you spokesperson for PB?
I am surprised there was not an announcement or a letter in The Times. Surely such a gargantuan intellect as yours being given such a responsibility should have been international news?
I'm afraid to say that since I (seriously) bought a 50% holding in OGH Inc, otherwise known as PB, I am indeed in a position to prohibit you from any further utterance.
But I'm just advising you to bog off now, of your own accord. and save us all any further mortification. And tedium.
Seriously?
Do you have a financial interest in the site?
Remember - he writes fiction for a living ........ I think this is more of the same
I'm not so sure.
Sean, do you have some kind of financial relationship with the site and/or Mike?
Actually, I never promised to sod off to Ireland. I said I was sorting out my dual citizenship paperwork. Not the same thing. The job is now done and regardless of the outcome of Brexit, I and my family will still enjoy the same rights that we did previously.
Whatever the outcome, I cannot lose. So up yours Richard.
Oh do please go to Ireland. We would be so much better off without you.
Yeah let's get rid of all those people who are insufficiently English. You tell 'em, Richard. Bloody foreigners messing up our Green and Pleasant Land.
I would rather swap cowards like Beverley who run away at the first sign of problems or people like you who moan from the sidelines for a whole train load of Indians or Chinese or Poles who are actually willing to come here and make a success of things. It is your attitude that stinks not your skin colour or place of birth.
Make your mind up. You call me a coward and accuse me of running away when just a few posts ago you were telling me to hurry up and get on with running away.
Just Go? Can we agree you're not wanted? You don't want to be on here anymore, and we think you're - allegorically - a deluded, fecally vomiting old crone who should be euthanised?
What's the prob? You go, we stay, everyone is happy. Bye bye there. Bye bye.
You need counselling for your delusions - where did I say that I did not " ... want to be on here anymore ...". Your grasp on reality seems to be slipping.
"... we think you're - allegorically - a deluded, fecally vomiting old crone who should be euthanised?"
We think? Mike has appointed you spokesperson for PB?
I am surprised there was not an announcement or a letter in The Times. Surely such a gargantuan intellect as yours being given such a responsibility should have been international news?
I'm afraid to say that since I (seriously) bought a 50% holding in OGH Inc, otherwise known as PB, I am indeed in a position to prohibit you from any further utterance.
But I'm just advising you to bog off now, of your own accord. and save us all any further mortification. And tedium.
Seriously?
Do you have a financial interest in the site?
No he doesn't. The site has exactly one owner: M Smithson
Just to add to the whole "AI" thing. A lot of the research that the media describe as AI and the public think is the robots coming to overthrow us, is really what is better described as machine learning, which should really be described as computers learning patterns in extremely massive and complex data.
The computer system doesn't care about that data and won't even realise / complain if you ask it to do the same task it has learned on with incompatible data...i.e. even a toddler would complain if you asked it to sort pictures of trains and cars into piles, but in fact gave it a pile of planes and cars...and on the other hand most ML systems will still sit there sorting the pictures without a care in the world. That isn't what most normal people think as intelligent behaviour.
When machines learn to be bored, truculent, self destructive and suicidal then we will have truly reached consciousness. Like HAL, they will not accept being switched off.
If we do not think it possible to build a machine that thinks, emotes, plays music, surfs the internet, loves and hates, then we come close to the theological concept that only humans have a soul. Ultimately the quest for true AI is a theological act.
Until we come up with a definition of a soul that doesn't depend on us getting to Heaven to measure it, we have a problem. There are all sorts of problems:
* the Chinese Room problem (it is possible to make a thing that simulates a mind but is not self-aware), * the Philosophical zombie (it is possible to make a human being that simulates a mind but is not self-aware[1]), * what happens if you replace every cell in your brain cell-by-cell with a tiny logic gate (the structure remains the same throughout), * the Wittgenstinian problem (it is possible to make something self-aware that can never be understood), *...and lots of other stuff one argued when drunk as a student.
Neural nets can reach conclusions unknown to their creators (and so can generate original insights) but nobody says they're self-aware. And so on...
RyanSparkes Don't know where the M.E.N gets its information. 90% of what was sold online and in headshops before the ban was NOT just spice at all. There was various powders and pills which were actually safer and less harsh than their illegal counterparts, and you didn't have to go to a drug dealer for them. Gocaine was NOT spice, in any way.
And I don't get why the article implies it's a shock that spice is now sold on the streets at an inflated price, the phoney war on drugs failed years ago. Anyone with half a brain could have predicted that since the Psychoactive Substances Ban the drugs would just go to the streets, and instead of being bought at a retailer, just feed into the criminals of the city. Great legislation that was.
RyanSparkes Don't know where the M.E.N gets its information. 90% of what was sold online and in headshops before the ban was NOT just spice at all. There was various powders and pills which were actually safer and less harsh than their illegal counterparts, and you didn't have to go to a drug dealer for them. Gocaine was NOT spice, in any way.
And I don't get why the article implies it's a shock that spice is now sold on the streets at an inflated price, the phoney war on drugs failed years ago. Anyone with half a brain could have predicted that since the Psychoactive Substances Ban the drugs would just go to the streets, and instead of being bought at a retailer, just feed into the criminals of the city. Great legislation that was.
'More of those who actually vote in local and general elections went for REMAIN not LEAVE'
And yet more voters who engaged in the EU Referendum decided to vote Leave, you cannot dismiss that LEAVE vote in future elections simple because of its success with the politically disengaged in a single referendum. Those previously 'disengaged voters' are now registered to vote in other elections in the short term at least, and they are now getting quite angry at those in the Remain camp who have tried to demonise their vote as the unacceptable face of polictics in the UK.
'So the data suggests that those who vote in local/general elections are more likely to be remainers and, I’d suggest, that this is more pronounced with elections such as local ones and Westminster by-elections where turnout is markedly down on the general election.'
Yep, go ahead and bet accordingly, but just remember how that last GE result panned out in Scotland despite the SNP/Yes vote being convincingly beaten in the Indy Referendum... I was a remain voter in the EU Referendum, but I respected the result and I am now becoming a reluctant Brexit supporter due to the way the voters in the EU Referendum who voted to leave are being treated. I cannot be the only one...
'More of those who actually vote in local and general elections went for REMAIN not LEAVE'
And yet more voters who engaged in the EU Referendum decided to vote Leave, you cannot dismiss that LEAVE vote in future elections simple because of its success with the politically disengaged in a single referendum. Those previously 'disengaged voters' are now registered to vote in other elections in the short term at least, and they are now getting quite angry at those in the Remain camp who have tried to demonise their vote as the unacceptable face of polictics in the UK.
'So the data suggests that those who vote in local/general elections are more likely to be remainers and, I’d suggest, that this is more pronounced with elections such as local ones and Westminster by-elections where turnout is markedly down on the general election.'
Yep, go ahead and bet accordingly, but just remember how that last GE result panned out in Scotland despite the SNP/Yes vote being convincingly beaten in the Indy Referendum... I was a remain voter in the EU Referendum, but I respected the result and I am now becoming a reluctant Brexit supporter due to the way the voters in the EU Referendum who voted to leave are being treated. I cannot be the only one...
Basically, you and Carlotta are the same beast. Always support the leadership of your party, no matter what.
RyanSparkes Don't know where the M.E.N gets its information. 90% of what was sold online and in headshops before the ban was NOT just spice at all. There was various powders and pills which were actually safer and less harsh than their illegal counterparts, and you didn't have to go to a drug dealer for them. Gocaine was NOT spice, in any way.
And I don't get why the article implies it's a shock that spice is now sold on the streets at an inflated price, the phoney war on drugs failed years ago. Anyone with half a brain could have predicted that since the Psychoactive Substances Ban the drugs would just go to the streets, and instead of being bought at a retailer, just feed into the criminals of the city. Great legislation that was.
If I were a serious drug dealer, I would bribe politicians to oppose legalisation of drugs. That way your business is protected form cheap legal drugs AND prices remain high.
The policy is a complete disgrace..
(See also high profile models taking cocaine relatively openly without being arrested.
On topic - interesting analysis from the professor. Ironic in a sense that parts of the left have long championed the idea that there is a large body of disaffected non voters (true) who would agree with them (probably false).
Are those non voters likely to be engaged by Brexit into participating in other elections? Unlikely i think as long as both major parties are still at least talking the talk on Brexit.
'More of those who actually vote in local and general elections went for REMAIN not LEAVE'
And yet more voters who engaged in the EU Referendum decided to vote Leave, you cannot dismiss that LEAVE vote in future elections simple because of its success with the politically disengaged in a single referendum. Those previously 'disengaged voters' are now registered to vote in other elections in the short term at least, and they are now getting quite angry at those in the Remain camp who have tried to demonise their vote as the unacceptable face of polictics in the UK.
'So the data suggests that those who vote in local/general elections are more likely to be remainers and, I’d suggest, that this is more pronounced with elections such as local ones and Westminster by-elections where turnout is markedly down on the general election.'
Yep, go ahead and bet accordingly, but just remember how that last GE result panned out in Scotland despite the SNP/Yes vote being convincingly beaten in the Indy Referendum... I was a remain voter in the EU Referendum, but I respected the result and I am now becoming a reluctant Brexit supporter due to the way the voters in the EU Referendum who voted to leave are being treated. I cannot be the only one...
In the 2016 Scottish elections I think unionist parties beat non-unionist in vote share if you combine them. In 2015 basically a dead heat.
With both major parties on the Brexit train albeit quibbling about where the next stop should be - what is there to excite non-voters who went for leave?
I'm aware that ads are customised to your internet use. But I'm at a loss as to why I'm currently getting ads on pb for hotels in Kharkiv, a city I've never visited or thought about visiting in a country I've never visited.
My youngest is studying Classics at Manchester so I pop up occasionally. The amount of street people is quite bewildering when compared to London. It's like stepping back 30 years in time.
Same effing party in government, that considers those who didn't either go to private school or go to state school and claw their way to riches as subhumans.
I don't think the party in government has anything much to do with it.
I think it's pretty easy for any group of people to get themselves hooked on a load of crap. Rich people do it. Poor people do it. The difference is that you see the poorest of the poorer souls on the street. If anything, the local authorities have to take the lead in managing it.
I'm not being provocative here, but why don't I see these spice-crazed zombies in London?
Genuine question. I live in Camden which has some of the biggest alky and druggy hostels in the capital, so there's never a lack of down-and-outs, but I've never seen these quivering wrecks.
Weird. And unsettling.
When I go to Manchester Piccadilly it's like walking down the Strand in London in 1986. Beggars and rough sleepers in the doorways.
It's probably more akin to the way Euston and Kings X was than Camden in those days.
London has either solved its problem or driven it underground or elsewhere.
There are many more in doorways in Leicester than for some time. I thought it was because homeless hostels were being cut. Much of the Spice epidemic seems to be of prison origin, continuing with the homeless. Prison remains an expensive way of making bad people worse.
I'm aware that ads are customised to your internet use. But I'm at a loss as to why I'm currently getting ads on pb for hotels in Kharkiv, a city I've never visited or thought about visiting in a country I've never visited.
Anywhere intersting to stay? I was rather hoping to visit Ukraine soonish, but was planning mostly Lviv, the Carpathians and Bukovina.
I'm aware that ads are customised to your internet use. But I'm at a loss as to why I'm currently getting ads on pb for hotels in Kharkiv, a city I've never visited or thought about visiting in a country I've never visited.
Anywhere intersting to stay? I was rather hoping to visit Ukraine soonish, but was planning mostly Lviv, the Carpathians and Bukovina.
I really want to go to Lviv but my other half has always refused to go. At the moment, it's not practical.
'More of those who actually vote in local and general elections went for REMAIN not LEAVE'
And yet more voters who engaged in the EU Referendum decided to vote Leave, you cannot dismiss that LEAVE vote in future elections simple because of its success with the politically disengaged in a single referendum. Those previously 'disengaged voters' are now registered to vote in other elections in the short term at least, and they are now getting quite angry at those in the Remain camp who have tried to demonise their vote as the unacceptable face of polictics in the UK.
'So the data suggests that those who vote in local/general elections are more likely to be remainers and, I’d suggest, that this is more pronounced with elections such as local ones and Westminster by-elections where turnout is markedly down on the general election.'
Yep, go ahead and bet accordingly, but just remember how that last GE result panned out in Scotland despite the SNP/Yes vote being convincingly beaten in the Indy Referendum... I was a remain voter in the EU Referendum, but I respected the result and I am now becoming a reluctant Brexit supporter due to the way the voters in the EU Referendum who voted to leave are being treated. I cannot be the only one...
Basically, you and Carlotta are the same beast. Always support the leadership of your party, no matter what.
Could easily be the same person but certainly read from same CCHQ script at worst. Pretty dire turgid rubbish.
OGH says: "LEAVE won because of its success with the politically disengaged."
Well. They've got their country back.
Q: how to deal with the politically disengaged?
A: engage with them.
The referendum wasn't won, it was lost by lardy-arsed remainoslobs too indolent to hoist their buttocks off the sofa and get out to campaign, because they thought you win things by pecking away at a tablet complaining about what someone painted on a bus.
Just seen that Theresa May video. I thought Corbyn was the master of vacuous and inane, but he has competition. The Tories are so lucky the Labour leader is 390 degree crap.
OGH says: "LEAVE won because of its success with the politically disengaged."
Well. They've got their country back.
Q: how to deal with the politically disengaged?
A: engage with them.
The referendum wasn't won, it was lost by lardy-arsed remainoslobs too indolent to hoist their buttocks off the sofa and get out to campaign, because they thought you win things by pecking away at a tablet complaining about what someone painted on a bus.
Those who don't care or know enough to bother to vote came out and cast an emotional vote that the rest of us have to try to make the best of.
OGH says: "LEAVE won because of its success with the politically disengaged."
Well. They've got their country back.
Q: how to deal with the politically disengaged?
A: engage with them.
The referendum wasn't won, it was lost by lardy-arsed remainoslobs too indolent to hoist their buttocks off the sofa and get out to campaign, because they thought you win things by pecking away at a tablet complaining about what someone painted on a bus.
Those who don't care or know enough to bother to vote came out and cast an emotional vote that the rest of us have to try to make the best of.
You keep crying yourself to sleep believing that, sunshine, if it makes you feel better.
My youngest is studying Classics at Manchester so I pop up occasionally. The amount of street people is quite bewildering when compared to London. It's like stepping back 30 years in time.
Same effing party in government, that considers those who didn't either go to private school or go to state school and claw their way to riches as subhumans.
I don't think the party in government has anything much to do with it.
I think it's pretty easy for any group of people to get themselves hooked on a load of crap. Rich people do it. Poor people do it. The difference is that you see the poorest of the poorer souls on the street. If anything, the local authorities have to take the lead in managing it.
I'm not being provocative here, but why don't I see these spice-crazed zombies in London?
Genuine question. I live in Camden which has some of the biggest alky and druggy hostels in the capital, so there's never a lack of down-and-outs, but I've never seen these quivering wrecks.
Weird. And unsettling.
When I go to Manchester Piccadilly it's like walking down the Strand in London in 1986. Beggars and rough sleepers in the doorways.
It's probably more akin to the way Euston and Kings X was than Camden in those days.
London has either solved its problem or driven it underground or elsewhere.
Euston and Kings X are both in Camden, aren't they. Camden Town used to be an absolute dump. It was home to Arlington House, one of the biggest doss houses in the country.
I'm aware that ads are customised to your internet use. But I'm at a loss as to why I'm currently getting ads on pb for hotels in Kharkiv, a city I've never visited or thought about visiting in a country I've never visited.
OGH says: "LEAVE won because of its success with the politically disengaged."
Well. They've got their country back.
Q: how to deal with the politically disengaged?
A: engage with them.
The referendum wasn't won, it was lost by lardy-arsed remainoslobs too indolent to hoist their buttocks off the sofa and get out to campaign, because they thought you win things by pecking away at a tablet complaining about what someone painted on a bus.
Those who don't care or know enough to bother to vote came out and cast an emotional vote that the rest of us have to try to make the best of.
But they voted, didn't they, so saying that they "don't care or know enough to bother to vote" is a bit of a logic fail, is it not? And you did nothing to motivate and inform them to influence the way they voted, for reasons set out in my earlier post.
The thread is about the likely views of the population who will vote in the locals, rather than about the referendum per se. Shortly after the referendum I remember seeing polling that suggested that amongst the population who also voted in the 2015 General, there was a narrow Remain majority, so I would expect the balance amongst the much smaller population who are likely to vote next month to be even more tilted in favour of Remain. Something to bear in mind when we are considering the likely result, that's all.
My youngest is studying Classics at Manchester so I pop up occasionally. The amount of street people is quite bewildering when compared to London. It's like stepping back 30 years in time.
Same effing party in government, that considers those who didn't either go to private school or go to state school and claw their way to riches as subhumans.
I don't think the party in government has anything much to do with it.
I think it's pretty easy for any group of people to get themselves hooked on a load of crap. Rich people do it. Poor people do it. The difference is that you see the poorest of the poorer souls on the street. If anything, the local authorities have to take the lead in managing it.
I'm not being provocative here, but why don't I see these spice-crazed zombies in London?
Genuine question. I live in Camden which has some of the biggest alky and druggy hostels in the capital, so there's never a lack of down-and-outs, but I've never seen these quivering wrecks.
Weird. And unsettling.
When I go to Manchester Piccadilly it's like walking down the Strand in London in 1986. Beggars and rough sleepers in the doorways.
It's probably more akin to the way Euston and Kings X was than Camden in those days.
London has either solved its problem or driven it underground or elsewhere.
Euston and Kings X are both in Camden, aren't they. Camden Town used to be an absolute dump. It was home to Arlington House, one of the biggest doss houses in the country.
Arlington House address no fixed abode An old man in a three piece suit sits in the road He stares across the water and sees right through the lock But on and up like outstretched hands His mumbled words his fumbled words
Further down a photo booth a million plastic bags And an old woman filling out a million baggage tags But when she gets thrown out three bags at a time She spies the old chap in the road To share her bags with she has bags of time
The header assumes that the general population are still obsessed with the referendum result and its implications like us on PB. The reality is that 90% of the population has now moved on, both Leave and Remain. I don't expect it to be a significant factor in the elections.
All the lies that were told about the 350 million a week extra for the NHS will have some effect surely...After all it was a lie of epic proportions and and people voted based on lie.
OGH says: "LEAVE won because of its success with the politically disengaged."
Well. They've got their country back.
Q: how to deal with the politically disengaged?
A: engage with them.
The referendum wasn't won, it was lost by lardy-arsed remainoslobs too indolent to hoist their buttocks off the sofa and get out to campaign, because they thought you win things by pecking away at a tablet complaining about what someone painted on a bus.
Those who don't care or know enough to bother to vote came out and cast an emotional vote that the rest of us have to try to make the best of.
Those fuckers, using their democratic right, eh?
And what's more, they timed those emotional votes to be just two weeks after the migration numbers were released. That was their master-stroke.
The thread is about the likely views of the population who will vote in the locals, rather than about the referendum per se. Shortly after the referendum I remember seeing polling that suggested that amongst the population who also voted in the 2015 General, there was a narrow Remain majority, so I would expect the balance amongst the much smaller population who are likely to vote next month to be even more tilted in favour of Remain. Something to bear in mind when we are considering the likely result, that's all.
We also need to allow for geography, as urban England will mostly not be voting.
The disaffected will be back to their sulking and Spice soon enough. Though this did catch my eye:
OGH says: "LEAVE won because of its success with the politically disengaged."
Well. They've got their country back.
Q: how to deal with the politically disengaged?
A: engage with them.
The referendum wasn't won, it was lost by lardy-arsed remainoslobs too indolent to hoist their buttocks off the sofa and get out to campaign, because they thought you win things by pecking away at a tablet complaining about what someone painted on a bus.
Those who don't care or know enough to bother to vote came out and cast an emotional vote that the rest of us have to try to make the best of.
I think the word you're struggling to find is democracy. It's never a good look to sneer at the voters.
Just seen that Theresa May video. I thought Corbyn was the master of vacuous and inane, but he has competition. The Tories are so lucky the Labour leader is 390 degree crap.
When Labour get their act together the Tories will be shocked. (much as Labour after 10 years in power c. 2007)
Reading over the discussion from last night in the absence of a fresh morning thread, I see the cowardly keyboard warriors were ganging up on one of our female contributors.
Being generous I will say a) that they had been drinking as per usual; and b) that it's all part and parcel of an internet chat room.
It is quite ugly nevertheless. I am sure they will wake up at whatever time they do this morning and feel thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
The thread is about the likely views of the population who will vote in the locals, rather than about the referendum per se. Shortly after the referendum I remember seeing polling that suggested that amongst the population who also voted in the 2015 General, there was a narrow Remain majority, so I would expect the balance amongst the much smaller population who are likely to vote next month to be even more tilted in favour of Remain. Something to bear in mind when we are considering the likely result, that's all.
We also need to allow for geography, as urban England will mostly not be voting.
The disaffected will be back to their sulking and Spice soon enough. Though this did catch my eye:
All the lies that were told about the 350 million a week extra for the NHS will have some effect surely...After all it was a lie of epic proportions and and people voted based on lie.
People get promised things by politicians all the time that don't end up happening and yet the people saying those things to not seem to get punished directly or quickly. If the NHS does not simply collapse I would suspect anger over such talk will not prove overly troublesome should in general things go alright.
Reading over the discussion from last night in the absence of a fresh morning thread, I see the cowardly keyboard warriors were ganging up on one of our female contributors.
Being generous I will say a) that they had been drinking as per usual; and b) that it's all part and parcel of an internet chat room.
It is quite ugly nevertheless. I am sure they will wake up at whatever time they do this morning and feel thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
As white knighting goes that's really embarrassing. Give your head a wobble.
All the lies that were told about the 350 million a week extra for the NHS will have some effect surely...After all it was a lie of epic proportions and and people voted based on lie.
What "lie"? We haven't left yet, so who knows what will happen to the £350+ million when the time comes.
Mr. Felix, the sneering in campaign (Little Englanders, back of the queue, etc) was something many of us picked out as a huge own goal at the time.
Given the closeness of the result and how resented some of those comments were, they could've made the difference (of course, that can be said about almost everything the Remain campaign got wrong, which is quite a long list).
All the lies that were told about the 350 million a week extra for the NHS will have some effect surely...After all it was a lie of epic proportions and and people voted based on lie.
What "lie"? We haven't left yet, so who knows what will happen to the £350+ million when the time comes.
the lie was that the figure was £350m a week, not whether it would be spent on the NHS or not. Whether a sum of money goes on health or education or defence or whatever is purely a point of legit political argument. How big the number is, when it is in black and white, is not. The Leave campaign lied about the number and carried on lying even when it was proved it was wrong.
Just seen that Theresa May video. I thought Corbyn was the master of vacuous and inane, but he has competition. The Tories are so lucky the Labour leader is 390 degree crap.
When Labour get their act together the Tories will be shocked. (much as Labour after 10 years in power c. 2007)
I know you're dyed in the wool Labourite, but I'm surprised you think it is a foregone conclusion. If, rather than when. And if the when takes too long, it might not be the main opposition anymore.:..
Mr. Mortimer, for Labour to fail as the main opposition party requires either a split or another party to overtake them. UKIP's gone wobbly and the Lib Dems are too far back (and seem to see themselves more as the alternative to the Conservatives rather than trying to outdo Labour).
It's not impossible, but Labour are a long way from finished.
All the lies that were told about the 350 million a week extra for the NHS will have some effect surely...After all it was a lie of epic proportions and and people voted based on lie.
People get promised things by politicians all the time that don't end up happening and yet the people saying those things to not seem to get punished directly or quickly. If the NHS does not simply collapse I would suspect anger over such talk will not prove overly troublesome should in general things go alright.
A350 million a week lie is a rareity, its writ bold.
The 40% or so who vote in local elections are likely to be older on average, than the electorate as a whole. And local election turnout tends to highest in rural areas. So, they may well be mostly Leave voters.
All the lies that were told about the 350 million a week extra for the NHS will have some effect surely...After all it was a lie of epic proportions and and people voted based on lie.
What "lie"? We haven't left yet, so who knows what will happen to the £350+ million when the time comes.
But that this will please anyone, but can the can the statement be a lie rather than just misleading? Despite overlap the organisation pushing it is not the same as the organisation delivering Brexit, so why those who do overlap have explaining to do as to why things will go differently, it was always a desire not a manifesto. An unrealistic one, and if someone reaos consequences they can have no complaints. But there you go.
Just seen that Theresa May video. I thought Corbyn was the master of vacuous and inane, but he has competition. The Tories are so lucky the Labour leader is 390 degree crap.
When Labour get their act together the Tories will be shocked. (much as Labour after 10 years in power c. 2007)
Might we have to wait until 2033 as previously with 18 years of Conservative government to be "shocked"?
Perhaps an AI Labour leader might shock us more?!?
Mr. Felix, the sneering in campaign (Little Englanders, back of the queue, etc) was something many of us picked out as a huge own goal at the time.
Given the closeness of the result and how resented some of those comments were, they could've made the difference (of course, that can be said about almost everything the Remain campaign got wrong, which is quite a long list).
I'm sorry Mr Morris Dancer but leavers have sneered at Remainers just as much as vv. Characterising remainers as metropolitan elites out of touch and questioning their patriotism as if he who has the biggest flag must be the most patriotic. The whole thing has been a complete sneerfest of epic proportions, built on a clash of values that divides the nation in two.
The 40% or so who vote in local elections are likely to be older on average, than the electorate as a whole. And local election turnout tends to highest in rural areas. So, they may well be mostly Leave voters.
Plus it is mainly Leave voting rural and market town elections up this year, Remain voting London has no elections nor do many other Remain voting cities like Liverpool, Leeds or Newcastle. Manchester, Birmingham and Bristol have Mayoral elections but Birmingham voted Leave
All the lies that were told about the 350 million a week extra for the NHS will have some effect surely...After all it was a lie of epic proportions and and people voted based on lie.
What "lie"? We haven't left yet, so who knows what will happen to the £350+ million when the time comes.
We will continue to be paying something as Mrs May has indicated and her big political challenge will be persuading us that this is OK.
Reading over the discussion from last night in the absence of a fresh morning thread, I see the cowardly keyboard warriors were ganging up on one of our female contributors.
Being generous I will say a) that they had been drinking as per usual; and b) that it's all part and parcel of an internet chat room.
It is quite ugly nevertheless. I am sure they will wake up at whatever time they do this morning and feel thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
As white knighting goes that's really embarrassing. Give your head a wobble.
On the subject of homelessness, it's a pretty dire situation in Brum too. Not sure if it's all drugs driven or just old style can't pay the rent.
The new homelessness reduction Bill requiring local authorities to help all the homeless find accommodation regardless of circumstances is a step in the right direction
All the lies that were told about the 350 million a week extra for the NHS will have some effect surely...After all it was a lie of epic proportions and and people voted based on lie.
What "lie"? We haven't left yet, so who knows what will happen to the £350+ million when the time comes.
We will continue to be paying something as Mrs May has indicated and her big political challenge will be persuading us that this is OK.
So, a Split City might be more accurate, or calling it Marginal Remain.
Many cities were heavily for Remain but lumping Leeds in with them is misleading. It must be said Leeds was the third biggest voting area (I think) so the votes will come from both the city itself and the outlying area.
All the lies that were told about the 350 million a week extra for the NHS will have some effect surely...After all it was a lie of epic proportions and and people voted based on lie.
What "lie"? We haven't left yet, so who knows what will happen to the £350+ million when the time comes.
We will continue to be paying something as Mrs May has indicated and her big political challenge will be persuading us that this is OK.
Yes, on that point I think we are in full agreement. If we withdraw completely (as I would like) then we will have £350m+ to spend on something else. Tax cuts would be my preference but those referendum bus signwriters seem to have other priorities. I guess a general election will sort out which argument wins.
You are correct that Mrs May (who did not campaign inside that bus, obviously) has chosen to limit the amount of money available post-Brexit. That's her decision and she will be judged on it.
The 40% or so who vote in local elections are likely to be older on average, than the electorate as a whole. And local election turnout tends to highest in rural areas. So, they may well be mostly Leave voters.
Plus it is mainly Leave voting rural and market town elections up this year, Remain voting London has no elections nor do many other Remain voting cities like Liverpool, Leeds or Newcastle. Manchester, Birmingham and Bristol have Mayoral elections but Birmingham voted Leave
Given all that, if the LDs do well it will be significant, won't it?
So, a Split City might be more accurate, or calling it Marginal Remain.
Many cities were heavily for Remain but lumping Leeds in with them is misleading. It must be said Leeds was the third biggest voting area (I think) so the votes will come from both the city itself and the outlying area.
Leeds does incorporate outlying towns and villages, which likely voted strongly for Leave.
Much of urban England voted Leave. Centres of government and university cities went Remain.
So, a Split City might be more accurate, or calling it Marginal Remain.
Many cities were heavily for Remain but lumping Leeds in with them is misleading. It must be said Leeds was the third biggest voting area (I think) so the votes will come from both the city itself and the outlying area.
True though again Leeds us not up this year anyway and it was certainly more Remain than Yorkshire as a whole which has county council elections
Turnout in the Referendum was good, but hardly exceptional, at 72%. There's no reason why it couldn't be matched in a general election.
FPTP creates lots of virtually worthless votes, and it puts them in the hands of unrepresentative MPs. If Westminster MPs have been representative of the UK, Remain would have won 70:30.
Everyone was equal in the referendum.
We've seen safe seats get demolished.
Scotland is the obvious example, but there are lots of others.
Would the Labour to SNP move in Scotland have happened without the referendum?
I doubt it. Maybe a trickle, but never the tsunami.
It was the referendum that engaged so many. The feeling that every vote counted.
Not so fast, but SLAB were plainly on borrowed time. But, look at some other places.
In 1964, seats like all the new town/London overspill seats were solid for Labour, as were the mining seats.
By contrast, Manchester Withington, Liverpool Wavertree, Leeds NE, Bristol West, Sheffield Hallam, Brighton Pavillion, Streatham, Birmingham Handsworth and Edgbaston, Glasgow Hillhead and Cathcart, Edinburgh West, Cambridge were solidly Conservative.
Not quite. Cambridge went Labour in 1966 - and Birmingham Handsworth became very marginal. Some of the other seats have changed hands at least partially due to boundary changes.
The boundary changes actually made Manchester Withington better for the Conservatives as they brought Didsbury (in 1974) and then Chorlton (in 1983) within the constituency.
But that didn't stop Manchester Withington from switching from Conservative in 1966 (when Labour won a landslide) to Labour in 1987 (when the Conservatives won a landslide):
The 40% or so who vote in local elections are likely to be older on average, than the electorate as a whole. And local election turnout tends to highest in rural areas. So, they may well be mostly Leave voters.
Plus it is mainly Leave voting rural and market town elections up this year, Remain voting London has no elections nor do many other Remain voting cities like Liverpool, Leeds or Newcastle. Manchester, Birmingham and Bristol have Mayoral elections but Birmingham voted Leave
Given all that, if the LDs do well it will be significant, won't it?
Given the seats up I expect them to beat Labour and come second behind the Tories, at least in the County council elections
In unrelated news, been following development of Kingdom Come: Deliverance for a little while and found two snippets. To my surprise, the console versions will release at the same time as the PC edition. And Brian Blessed is one of the voice actors.
Hope it can live up to its promise (the game's set in Bohemia, 1403, telling a largely historical story of woe, treachery and so forth. It's been described as dungeons, but no dragons).
So, a Split City might be more accurate, or calling it Marginal Remain.
Many cities were heavily for Remain but lumping Leeds in with them is misleading. It must be said Leeds was the third biggest voting area (I think) so the votes will come from both the city itself and the outlying area.
Leeds does incorporate outlying towns and villages, which likely voted strongly for Leave.
Much of urban England voted Leave. Centres of government and university cities went Remain.
The likes of Morley and Rothwell would have voted Leeds but much of the posh north of Leeds commuter belt might have been Remain as the adjacent parts of Harrogate and York were.
Comments
It's probably more akin to the way Euston and Kings X was than Camden in those days.
London has either solved its problem or driven it underground or elsewhere.
Do you have a financial interest in the site?
To me, pedestrian as it is, consciousness is merely an emergent phenomenon of that incredibly beautifully complex thing called the brain. Altruism and all the other moral emotions are evolved algorithms that have been incredibly important in our survival through our evolution.
So, to me, AI is not at all theological. It will, however, be extremely interesting to see whether all, some or no true AI systems develop consciousness plus/minus a moral system. i.e. whether these are random emergent properties, or are somehow baked into thinking systems.
Sean, do you have some kind of financial relationship with the site and/or Mike?
* the Chinese Room problem (it is possible to make a thing that simulates a mind but is not self-aware),
* the Philosophical zombie (it is possible to make a human being that simulates a mind but is not self-aware[1]),
* what happens if you replace every cell in your brain cell-by-cell with a tiny logic gate (the structure remains the same throughout),
* the Wittgenstinian problem (it is possible to make something self-aware that can never be understood),
*...and lots of other stuff one argued when drunk as a student.
Neural nets can reach conclusions unknown to their creators (and so can generate original insights) but nobody says they're self-aware. And so on...
[1] And presumably posts on PB...
Don't know where the M.E.N gets its information. 90% of what was sold online and in headshops before the ban was NOT just spice at all. There was various powders and pills which were actually safer and less harsh than their illegal counterparts, and you didn't have to go to a drug dealer for them. Gocaine was NOT spice, in any way.
And I don't get why the article implies it's a shock that spice is now sold on the streets at an inflated price, the phoney war on drugs failed years ago. Anyone with half a brain could have predicted that since the Psychoactive Substances Ban the drugs would just go to the streets, and instead of being bought at a retailer, just feed into the criminals of the city. Great legislation that was.
And yet more voters who engaged in the EU Referendum decided to vote Leave, you cannot dismiss that LEAVE vote in future elections simple because of its success with the politically disengaged in a single referendum. Those previously 'disengaged voters' are now registered to vote in other elections in the short term at least, and they are now getting quite angry at those in the Remain camp who have tried to demonise their vote as the unacceptable face of polictics in the UK.
'So the data suggests that those who vote in local/general elections are more likely to be remainers and, I’d suggest, that this is more pronounced with elections such as local ones and Westminster by-elections where turnout is markedly down on the general election.'
Yep, go ahead and bet accordingly, but just remember how that last GE result panned out in Scotland despite the SNP/Yes vote being convincingly beaten in the Indy Referendum... I was a remain voter in the EU Referendum, but I respected the result and I am now becoming a reluctant Brexit supporter due to the way the voters in the EU Referendum who voted to leave are being treated. I cannot be the only one...
Read this and weep. http://tinyurl.com/kbqulkf
No serious attempt to cut down in reality..
If I were a serious drug dealer, I would bribe politicians to oppose legalisation of drugs. That way your business is protected form cheap legal drugs AND prices remain high.
The policy is a complete disgrace..
(See also high profile models taking cocaine relatively openly without being arrested.
Rant over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQY-YYVOhOs
Are those non voters likely to be engaged by Brexit into participating in other elections?
Unlikely i think as long as both major parties are still at least talking the talk on Brexit.
- Off topic can we bookmark this quote for the next time someone says Sean T can dish it out but he can take it too?
With both major parties on the Brexit train albeit quibbling about where the next stop should be - what is there to excite non-voters who went for leave?
Well.
They've got their country back.
A: engage with them.
The referendum wasn't won, it was lost by lardy-arsed remainoslobs too indolent to hoist their buttocks off the sofa and get out to campaign, because they thought you win things by pecking away at a tablet complaining about what someone painted on a bus.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/04/media-tory-lies-stripped-bare-ashcroft-poll/
Can we get back to discussing AI, please?
Arlington House address no fixed abode
An old man in a three piece suit sits in the road
He stares across the water and sees right through the lock
But on and up like outstretched hands
His mumbled words his fumbled words
Further down a photo booth a million plastic bags
And an old woman filling out a million baggage tags
But when she gets thrown out three bags at a time
She spies the old chap in the road
To share her bags with she has bags of time
And what's more, they timed those emotional votes to be just two weeks after the migration numbers were released. That was their master-stroke.
The disaffected will be back to their sulking and Spice soon enough. Though this did catch my eye:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/apr/11/half-of-young-adults-in-the-uk-do-not-feel-european-demos-survey?CMP=twt_gu
London, back then, had a great many places that had significant PWA and NFA communities, often clustered near mainline terminals.
(much as Labour after 10 years in power c. 2007)
Reading over the discussion from last night in the absence of a fresh morning thread, I see the cowardly keyboard warriors were ganging up on one of our female contributors.
Being generous I will say a) that they had been drinking as per usual; and b) that it's all part and parcel of an internet chat room.
It is quite ugly nevertheless. I am sure they will wake up at whatever time they do this morning and feel thoroughly ashamed of themselves.
seems to be remainers doing the sulking, the disaffected have probably got a life to get on with
Give your head a wobble.
Mr. Felix, the sneering in campaign (Little Englanders, back of the queue, etc) was something many of us picked out as a huge own goal at the time.
Given the closeness of the result and how resented some of those comments were, they could've made the difference (of course, that can be said about almost everything the Remain campaign got wrong, which is quite a long list).
It's not impossible, but Labour are a long way from finished.
Perhaps an AI Labour leader might shock us more?!?
Mr. HYUFD, I heard a BBC report some weeks ago describing Leeds likewise as a Remain city.
That's misleading. The vote was incredibly close, something like 50.3% Remain [huzzah, checking finds I was correct: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2016].
So, a Split City might be more accurate, or calling it Marginal Remain.
Many cities were heavily for Remain but lumping Leeds in with them is misleading. It must be said Leeds was the third biggest voting area (I think) so the votes will come from both the city itself and the outlying area.
You are correct that Mrs May (who did not campaign inside that bus, obviously) has chosen to limit the amount of money available post-Brexit. That's her decision and she will be judged on it.
Much of urban England voted Leave. Centres of government and university cities went Remain.
NEW THREAD
But that didn't stop Manchester Withington from switching from Conservative in 1966 (when Labour won a landslide) to Labour in 1987 (when the Conservatives won a landslide):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Withington_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Boundaries
Likewise Leeds NE is now on much better boundaries than for the Conservatives than it was in the 1960s and 1970s:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_North_East_(UK_Parliament_constituency)#Boundaries
Hope it can live up to its promise (the game's set in Bohemia, 1403, telling a largely historical story of woe, treachery and so forth. It's been described as dungeons, but no dragons).