Does anyone believe that touring America to add a further layer of confusion, by talking up another referendum, will create a single job for Scotland? It is self-indulgence taken to extremes. By refusing to park the pretence that Scotland is crying out for independence, Sturgeon is threatening years of economic sterility which will continue to translate into lost jobs and investment. There is a North American precedent – so why didn’t she go to Quebec, where she might have learned something useful?
FWIW I think she is going a storm in the US and I'm sure it will add jobs.
Carlotta is praying for more disasters and job losses in Scotland , she cannot hide her delight at any woe that befalls Scotland and immediately blames it on the SNP. A very unedyfying sight for someone who CLAIMS to be Scottish.
I seem to recall a recent & relatively widely held PB view that we should pragmatically support Assad/Putin in a crusade against the slavering fascists of Isis and the Wahhabites. I'm assuming this is now a deceased duck?
Yep, I was wondering that.
There is, frankly, no good answer to the Middle East which has been a mess for most of the last and the previous century, if not longer.
The place itself is beautiful. The vegetation and wildlife are spectacular.
Not sure about any of the rest. I'm not at all convinced that having oil has done it any good either. Since starting again and populating the place with people who are not certifiable loons is not an option, not sure what can be done.
Having spent lots of time in the region I can confirm (if it ever needed saying) that the vast majority of people living there are not loons, certifiable or otherwise. At least no more than those living in Paris or Manchester or Hopewell, Virginia.
Even the fairly religious ones don't want to hurt their neighbours or fellow countrymen. There is a reason we call the extremists, extremist. It is because they are not the norm. Too many people seem to forget that when looking at the region from the outside, especially the vast majority whose nearest encounter is the duty free at Dubai or the beach at Sharm el Sheikh.
Fair enough. Still, whether certifiable loons or not, they do seem pretty much incapable of living in peace with each other let alone with anyone else or of creating functional civilized polities which do not spend most of their time killing their own citizens or the citizens of other states.
So, frankly, I'd like to have to do as little as possible with the place until it grows up.
I realize that this is probably an ill-informed and cowardly view. I would love to travel throughout the region and explore the remains of the old Roman Empire but as I would like to live to an old age, God willing, I will have to direct my energies elsewhere for the moment.
Once civil war becomes endemic, moderates are forced to choose sides with extremists, who they'd really prefer not to be in charge.
I think what is deemed "moderate" within the Middle East is not at all what we in the West would consider moderate.
Do credal societies inevitably lead to extremism?
And if they don't, what factors have to be present?
I think having a political party that is against air strikes is a healthy thing.
No one can say that the issue is cut and dried and even those who disagree with that view and support military action in this case, such as moi, understand that it is only a less bad option rather than a good one, given where we are with Syria.
Of course sadly Jezza demeans the viewpoint but I don't mind the Labour Party holding it.
Does anyone believe that touring America to add a further layer of confusion, by talking up another referendum, will create a single job for Scotland? It is self-indulgence taken to extremes. By refusing to park the pretence that Scotland is crying out for independence, Sturgeon is threatening years of economic sterility which will continue to translate into lost jobs and investment. There is a North American precedent – so why didn’t she go to Quebec, where she might have learned something useful?
FWIW I think she is going a storm in the US and I'm sure it will add jobs.
Carlotta is praying for more disasters and job losses in Scotland , she cannot hide her delight at any woe that befalls Scotland and immediately blames it on the SNP. A very unedyfying sight for someone who CLAIMS to be Scottish.
The fact that you can't separate 'the SNP' from 'Scotland' is your problem, not mine.
Had a quick glance to see what coverage Sturgeon got in today's NYT - this was one story:
ABERDEEN, Scotland — A promise in a bond issued by Aberdeen city stipulating that investors can demand their money back early if the country leaves Britain is the starkest sign yet of investor nervousness over the prospect of Scottish secession.
In what lawyers said was a debt market first, the 370-million-pound bond issued late last year includes an "independence event" clause allowing early repayment if Scotland secedes before the end of the 37-year life of the debt.
Some very good and measured comments on here this morning about the Middle East in general. It's a big mess in many countries, the window of opportunity to sort Syria out was in 2013 and should have been taken (no thanks to Ed Miliband). Where we are now has no happy endings, but the US have rightly emphasised the point that the international community won't tolerate use of chemical weapons in any conflict.
A useful secondary point has been made to North Korea, that the US under Trump aren't afraid to send some strategic ordinance in order to give a nudge where required. China's reaction is probably the key to sorting out NK - but right now they've got more important things on the mind, like how to clear the Shanghai smog and avoid looking like idiots in front of the world's television cameras.
Measured factual response rather than the puerile bilge from the Tory US lapdogs. They have no plan , no clue other than to fund one set of the murderers and bomb the other one every now and again to show how tough they are from thousands of miles away.
Measured factual response rather than the puerile bilge from the Tory US lapdogs. They have no plan , no clue other than to fund one set of the murderers and bomb the other one every now and again to show how tough they are from thousands of miles away.
I see the number of civilians killed by the US airstrike continues to rise - as reported by the Syrian authorities. Wonder how long it will be before there's more been 'killed' in this than by the Sarin attack!
They have a head start , they managed to kill hundreds of civilians last week wit htheir precision strikes.
I think having a political party that is against air strikes is a healthy thing.
No one can say that the issue is cut and dried and even those who disagree with that view and support military action in this case, such as moi, understand that it is only a less bad option rather than a good one, given where we are with Syria.
Of course sadly Jezza demeans the viewpoint but I don't mind the Labour Party holding it.
I would assume all UK mainstream political parties are against air strikes.
The difference is who would sanction the use of them and for what reason.
I think having a political party that is against air strikes is a healthy thing.
No one can say that the issue is cut and dried and even those who disagree with that view and support military action in this case, such as moi, understand that it is only a less bad option rather than a good one, given where we are with Syria.
Of course sadly Jezza demeans the viewpoint but I don't mind the Labour Party holding it.
I would assume all UK mainstream political parties are against air strikes.
The difference is who would sanction the use of them and for what reason.
No I get that. I should have said "...in this instance..."
Should evidence emerge that an Assad attack on a rebel area resulted in a rebel chemical weapons store being hit and chemicals released, then Labour's position will be seen to be justified.
Christianity, from the time of Jesus himself, managed to accept the creed of 'render undo Caesar that which is Caesar's'. In other words to accept that there is something beyond religion. That secular rulers have a role to play. That law matters. Islam's greatest failing is to subsume, and in fact overwhelm, the concept of anything beyond Islam / Sharia having validity. There is no escape valve. No ability to reform. It's not a confident religion. The second major failing is not to have a Pope. Christianity struggled with big issues but when a doctrinal issue needed settling (or a political one) there was an authority. Islam has no authority. Civil wars and issues just fester as the proponents of both sides have no higher power to knock heads. So credal societies can avoid extremism - they just need to have escape valves and compassion for others and a boss.
I am really not sure I would use Christianity as an example of how to avoid civil war and extremism. We have been just as proficient at killing our own as the Muslims have and have had just as many if not more sects fighting against each other throughout our history.
Should evidence emerge that an Assad attack on a rebel area resulted in a rebel chemical weapons store being hit and chemicals released, then Labour's position will be seen to be justified.
That Russian story has been effectively debunked....one of the precursors of Sarin is highly flammable - so it would have gone up in smoke, rather than mixing itself in precise quantities to form a poison gas.....
Christianity, from the time of Jesus himself, managed to accept the creed of 'render undo Caesar that which is Caesar's'. In other words to accept that there is something beyond religion. That secular rulers have a role to play. That law matters. Islam's greatest failing is to subsume, and in fact overwhelm, the concept of anything beyond Islam / Sharia having validity. There is no escape valve. No ability to reform. It's not a confident religion. The second major failing is not to have a Pope. Christianity struggled with big issues but when a doctrinal issue needed settling (or a political one) there was an authority. Islam has no authority. Civil wars and issues just fester as the proponents of both sides have no higher power to knock heads. So credal societies can avoid extremism - they just need to have escape valves and compassion for others and a boss.
I am really not sure I would use Christianity as an example of how to avoid civil war and extremism. We have been just as proficient at killing our own as the Muslims have and have had just as many if not more sects fighting against each other throughout our history.
And since the Pope/Papacy was at the heart of almost all those wars, it's an 'interesting' proposition that they were a moderating, authoritative influence.
Of all the articles on the Syria action this is the one says it all I guess:
" Russia will reinforce Syrian air defences and is sending a missile carrying warship to the eastern Mediterranean in response to a US cruise missile strikes on a Syrian government airbase."
Measured factual response rather than the puerile bilge from the Tory US lapdogs. They have no plan , no clue other than to fund one set of the murderers and bomb the other one every now and again to show how tough they are from thousands of miles away.
You might try matching their measured response.
Am I not being bloodthirsty enough for you or is it not waving the butcher's apron. Keep up your pathetic armchair general support for murdering civilians.
Should evidence emerge that an Assad attack on a rebel area resulted in a rebel chemical weapons store being hit and chemicals released, then Labour's position will be seen to be justified.
That Russian story has been effectively debunked....one of the precursors of Sarin is highly flammable - so it would have gone up in smoke, rather than mixing itself in precise quantities to form a poison gas.....
Ha Ha, Lady Haw Haw is a chemical weapons expert now as well.
Should evidence emerge that an Assad attack on a rebel area resulted in a rebel chemical weapons store being hit and chemicals released, then Labour's position will be seen to be justified.
That Russian story has been effectively debunked....one of the precursors of Sarin is highly flammable - so it would have gone up in smoke, rather than mixing itself in precise quantities to form a poison gas.....
Long Twitter thread on why Russian 'bombed rebel chemical weapons factory' is junk:
Of all the articles on the Syria action this is the one says it all I guess:
" Russia will reinforce Syrian air defences and is sending a missile carrying warship to the eastern Mediterranean in response to a US cruise missile strikes on a Syrian government airbase."
The irony is that, taking the literal meaning of that statement, the only word in the whole thing I would outright disagree with is "instead".
What puts me in favour of the action is that the potential reward - a decent chance of ending Assad's use of chemical weapons, just one of many horrors of that war, but one we can very reasonably think it worthwhile stamping out in isolation - balances well against the risks, as highlighted by Corbyn, of the specific action taken. He even almost puts a toe in the water of judging the rewards of intervention later in his statement, but not quite.
Russia will, of course, harrumph, but even they, in private, may consider they have been done a favour here, while worrying about what it means elsewhere.
Should evidence emerge that an Assad attack on a rebel area resulted in a rebel chemical weapons store being hit and chemicals released, then Labour's position will be seen to be justified.
That Russian story has been effectively debunked....one of the precursors of Sarin is highly flammable - so it would have gone up in smoke, rather than mixing itself in precise quantities to form a poison gas.....
Ha Ha, Lady Haw Haw is a chemical weapons expert now as well.
See following post quoting a CBN expert.....we know you are only expert in sneering.....
Should evidence emerge that an Assad attack on a rebel area resulted in a rebel chemical weapons store being hit and chemicals released, then Labour's position will be seen to be justified.
That Russian story has been effectively debunked....one of the precursors of Sarin is highly flammable - so it would have gone up in smoke, rather than mixing itself in precise quantities to form a poison gas.....
Ha Ha, Lady Haw Haw is a chemical weapons expert now as well.
Reading that twitter thread, she seems to be right.
Iran was not the driving force behind the revolt against Assad, Saudi Arabia was. This is as much a religious war between the Wahhabi Saudi's and the Alawite Syrian regime as it is anything else. Saudi has far more to answer for in this war than Iran.
You've used that line before, but it's far from convincing. The real cause of the civil war was Assad's government and the things it was doing to its own people. He reached a stage where even some of his 'own' people could not stand it. Saudi might have taken advantage of the upheaval (or not), but the cause is Assad.
I find it hard to see how you're missing the point about Iran: they're an active participant in this conflict: Saudi is not. According to some reports, Iran has lost over 1,000 military personnel in fighting in Syria, including some senior figures such as brigadier-generals and major generals. It is the backstop for the now much-depleted Syrian army.
For this reason, Iran is the important figure. Yes, Saudi needs slapping down a little, but Iran's the country with troops on the ground. They're the country that's lost men, equipment and money to preserve Assad. They're much more important than Russia in preserving Assad in place.
Should evidence emerge that an Assad attack on a rebel area resulted in a rebel chemical weapons store being hit and chemicals released, then Labour's position will be seen to be justified.
That Russian story has been effectively debunked....one of the precursors of Sarin is highly flammable - so it would have gone up in smoke, rather than mixing itself in precise quantities to form a poison gas.....
Ha Ha, Lady Haw Haw is a chemical weapons expert now as well.
Reading that twitter thread, she seems to be right.
Twitter is the bible for chemical weapons experts now , that makes me feel better.
Should evidence emerge that an Assad attack on a rebel area resulted in a rebel chemical weapons store being hit and chemicals released, then Labour's position will be seen to be justified.
That Russian story has been effectively debunked....one of the precursors of Sarin is highly flammable - so it would have gone up in smoke, rather than mixing itself in precise quantities to form a poison gas.....
Ha Ha, Lady Haw Haw is a chemical weapons expert now as well.
Reading that twitter thread, she seems to be right.
Twitter is the bible for chemical weapons experts now , that makes me feel better.
No, but it does contain some expert analysis on topics such as these.
It was a sham anyway , handpicked chums at any cost to the public purse, idealogically driven where normal people would be jailed for less.
This is another of those occasions when we are in agreement, Malc.
But we must think of all those poor children in the local area who won't be able to take advantage of the bridge, which one of PB's establishment figures assured us was a reason for it to go ahead.
Of all the articles on the Syria action this is the one says it all I guess:
" Russia will reinforce Syrian air defences and is sending a missile carrying warship to the eastern Mediterranean in response to a US cruise missile strikes on a Syrian government airbase."
Should evidence emerge that an Assad attack on a rebel area resulted in a rebel chemical weapons store being hit and chemicals released, then Labour's position will be seen to be justified.
That Russian story has been effectively debunked....one of the precursors of Sarin is highly flammable - so it would have gone up in smoke, rather than mixing itself in precise quantities to form a poison gas.....
Ha Ha, Lady Haw Haw is a chemical weapons expert now as well.
Reading that twitter thread, she seems to be right.
Twitter is the bible for chemical weapons experts now , that makes me feel better.
No, but it does contain some expert analysis on topics such as these.
Malcolm tries to be a "useful idiot" - but only half succeeds....
It was a sham anyway , handpicked chums at any cost to the public purse, idealogically driven where normal people would be jailed for less.
This is another of those occasions when we are in agreement, Malc.
But we must think of all those poor children in the local area who won't be able to take advantage of the bridge, which one of PB's establishment figures assured us was a reason for it to go ahead.
Yes JJ, lots could be said about it but another shocking example of how these people squander our money on their vanity projects. Is it any wonder they are rich beyond belief themselves, but always have a crocodile tear for the poor.
I didn't hear that one but a recent BBC TV programme on Turkey featured praise for Erdogan's generosity to the refugees fleeing Syria. The more cynical analysis went as follows ... he may hope that they never go home but become Turkish citizens and bolster his majority in future elections.
It made me think ... if Erdogan wants to become the strong man of a semi-Islamic republic and is planning to become both 'president' and 'prime minister', with a token 'parliament' giving him a permanent majority of 100, does NATO allow dictatorships? The EU doesn't.
For your first paragraph: that may be part of his thinking now; it certainly wasn't five years ago when the refugee crisis started. Turkey took a principled humanitarian stand and has let a few less than three million refugees in.
Think about that for a minute: three million refugees in five years. It has caused large social problems in some parts of the country, and the way the rest of the world has turned their backs on the crisis (and this applies especially to Lebanon and Jordan as well) is despicable.
Erdogan can be criticised for a great many things, but on the whole his country's reaction to the refugee crisis next door is not one. But over the last year or two Turkey's ability to cope with the numbers - especially as the crisis seems nowhere near ending - is reducing. It's already cost them billions of dollars they can ill afford. And that's the direct costs.
Cameron was right: we should be helping refugees in the surrounding countries. But unfortunately some on here see that as 'bribing' countries ...
Of all the articles on the Syria action this is the one says it all I guess:
" Russia will reinforce Syrian air defences and is sending a missile carrying warship to the eastern Mediterranean in response to a US cruise missile strikes on a Syrian government airbase."
Yes but it's entirely possible that in two days time he will blame the military/intelligence services for misleading him on the strike or leaking the details to Russia or something....
Of all the articles on the Syria action this is the one says it all I guess:
" Russia will reinforce Syrian air defences and is sending a missile carrying warship to the eastern Mediterranean in response to a US cruise missile strikes on a Syrian government airbase."
Does anyone believe that touring America to add a further layer of confusion, by talking up another referendum, will create a single job for Scotland? It is self-indulgence taken to extremes. By refusing to park the pretence that Scotland is crying out for independence, Sturgeon is threatening years of economic sterility which will continue to translate into lost jobs and investment. There is a North American precedent – so why didn’t she go to Quebec, where she might have learned something useful?
FWIW I think she is going a storm in the US and I'm sure it will add jobs.
Carlotta is praying for more disasters and job losses in Scotland , she cannot hide her delight at any woe that befalls Scotland and immediately blames it on the SNP. A very unedyfying sight for someone who CLAIMS to be Scottish.
The fact that you can't separate 'the SNP' from 'Scotland' is your problem, not mine.
Had a quick glance to see what coverage Sturgeon got in today's NYT - this was one story:
ABERDEEN, Scotland — A promise in a bond issued by Aberdeen city stipulating that investors can demand their money back early if the country leaves Britain is the starkest sign yet of investor nervousness over the prospect of Scottish secession.
In what lawyers said was a debt market first, the 370-million-pound bond issued late last year includes an "independence event" clause allowing early repayment if Scotland secedes before the end of the 37-year life of the debt.
Comments
https://mobile.twitter.com/undefined/status/850299422575648768
He gets about a bit does old Paul.
Takes the element of surprise out, mind.
Do credal societies inevitably lead to extremism?
And if they don't, what factors have to be present?
Discuss.
Answers on both sides of the paper, please.
No one can say that the issue is cut and dried and even those who disagree with that view and support military action in this case, such as moi, understand that it is only a less bad option rather than a good one, given where we are with Syria.
Of course sadly Jezza demeans the viewpoint but I don't mind the Labour Party holding it.
Had a quick glance to see what coverage Sturgeon got in today's NYT - this was one story:
ABERDEEN, Scotland — A promise in a bond issued by Aberdeen city stipulating that investors can demand their money back early if the country leaves Britain is the starkest sign yet of investor nervousness over the prospect of Scottish secession.
In what lawyers said was a debt market first, the 370-million-pound bond issued late last year includes an "independence event" clause allowing early repayment if Scotland secedes before the end of the 37-year life of the debt.
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/04/07/business/07reuters-britain-scotland-aberdeen.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/38777762
A useful secondary point has been made to North Korea, that the US under Trump aren't afraid to send some strategic ordinance in order to give a nudge where required. China's reaction is probably the key to sorting out NK - but right now they've got more important things on the mind, like how to clear the Shanghai smog and avoid looking like idiots in front of the world's television cameras.
The difference is who would sanction the use of them and for what reason.
" Russia will reinforce Syrian air defences and is sending a missile carrying warship to the eastern Mediterranean in response to a US cruise missile strikes on a Syrian government airbase."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04/07/russia-halts-air-safety-deal-us-syria-warns-considerable-damage/
https://twitter.com/DanKaszeta/status/850288010625245184
Sailing down the Bosphorous as we speak.
https://twitter.com/bpolitics/status/850309956184223746
What puts me in favour of the action is that the potential reward - a decent chance of ending Assad's use of chemical weapons, just one of many horrors of that war, but one we can very reasonably think it worthwhile stamping out in isolation - balances well against the risks, as highlighted by Corbyn, of the specific action taken. He even almost puts a toe in the water of judging the rewards of intervention later in his statement, but not quite.
Russia will, of course, harrumph, but even they, in private, may consider they have been done a favour here, while worrying about what it means elsewhere.
I find it hard to see how you're missing the point about Iran: they're an active participant in this conflict: Saudi is not. According to some reports, Iran has lost over 1,000 military personnel in fighting in Syria, including some senior figures such as brigadier-generals and major generals. It is the backstop for the now much-depleted Syrian army.
For this reason, Iran is the important figure. Yes, Saudi needs slapping down a little, but Iran's the country with troops on the ground. They're the country that's lost men, equipment and money to preserve Assad. They're much more important than Russia in preserving Assad in place.
But we must think of all those poor children in the local area who won't be able to take advantage of the bridge, which one of PB's establishment figures assured us was a reason for it to go ahead.
Think about that for a minute: three million refugees in five years. It has caused large social problems in some parts of the country, and the way the rest of the world has turned their backs on the crisis (and this applies especially to Lebanon and Jordan as well) is despicable.
Erdogan can be criticised for a great many things, but on the whole his country's reaction to the refugee crisis next door is not one. But over the last year or two Turkey's ability to cope with the numbers - especially as the crisis seems nowhere near ending - is reducing. It's already cost them billions of dollars they can ill afford. And that's the direct costs.
Cameron was right: we should be helping refugees in the surrounding countries. But unfortunately some on here see that as 'bribing' countries ...
NEW THREAD
They have a track record in nakedly partisan anti-independence actions -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-31364188