A way to get around the Gibraltar issue if needs be would be to just make it a full incorporated part of the United Kingdom. Give them a Member of Parliament and keep it fully devolved. Can't be treated differently then.
Someone else suggested this down-thread. Is there a legal basis for this argument?
I am not sure. We "own" it, but I don't think it follows that we can incorporate it into ourselves. Say an eccentric billionaire owned the freehold of a very small Balearic island and left it to the UK in his will, we could not turn it into part of the UK.
I'm coming round to the Casino Royale view of Brexit. It's possible the EU is going to overplay its hand (which is fairly stupid, given that their hand is already strong), they will antagonise us too much, and we will crash out, with no deal.
Brace position.
After decades of being half-committed to the whole project and often being the contrary problem child, we have now kicked a hole in their budget and said "We're off". What did you expect them to do? Kiss us?
We were the contrary problem child..... that was also the second largest contributor to EU coffers. We paid for much of their crap.
We also opened our doors to Eastern Europe when France and Germany said Non. Etc etc etc. All this is so quickly and easily overlooked.
"... All this is so quickly and easily overlooked. "
A way to get around the Gibraltar issue if needs be would be to just make it a full incorporated part of the United Kingdom. Give them a Member of Parliament and keep it fully devolved. Can't be treated differently then.
Someone else suggested this down-thread. Is there a legal basis for this argument?
I am not sure. We "own" it, but I don't think it follows that we can incorporate it into ourselves. Say an eccentric billionaire owned the freehold of a very small Balearic island and left it to the UK in his will, we could not turn it into part of the UK.
Hm, I don't think that is quite analogous. If the government of Gibraltar asked to become a constituent part of the UK, surely that would be entirely legal. I am just not sure that means it would somehow invalidate the EU's statement on Spain and Gibraltar.
Of course if we get Diamond Hard Brexit there are advantages. We won't have to give them a fucking centime.
Coverage on the news last night of the Malta "jolly" they were on this week showed a lavish event with high production values so the great and the good of the EU inner circle could - well - it wasn't clear what they were up to - advertising the EU I think.
Ireland is about to move from the hand out to hand over column - I wonder how happy they will be to pony up for these excesses.
There must be a deal to be done - swap Gibraltar for Ibiza.
I suspect that Gibraltar is the Brexit dead cat that will periodically be thrown on the table to distract from the latest nonsense coming from Brussels or Westminster.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
Realpolitik means we'll have to give up Gibraltar for a good Brexit deal, get used to it, we were warned before the referendum.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Suck it up.
Yes, but the warnings came from people like George Osborne, who, as we all know, were hopelessly wrong about everything. Including their grasp of realpolitik.
Realpolitik means we'll have to give up Gibraltar for a good Brexit deal, get used to it, we were warned before the referendum.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Suck it up.
Simply not going to happen.
First of all, we have no rights to give away sovereign territory against the wishes of the people.
WTO would be better than giving away Gib.
The UK has assured the Gibraltarians that they will always have the right of self determination. That is not going to change. So the Rock-dwellers will have to do an astonishing volte-face before Gib becomes Spanish.
I doubt Gib would do that even if it meant losing 20% of the their GDP. And right now they are actually in the middle of a massive economic BOOM - 7.5% GDP growth.
Gibraltar’s Chief Minister Fabian Picardo, addressed the Gibraltar Parliament shortly after Mrs May’s statement to the Commons. He said, Gibraltar will “be no victim of Brexit” and insisted that “resilient and entrepreneurial” Gibraltarians would adapt to a new reality outside the EU.
“As far as we are concerned, this day brings us nothing to celebrate,” the Chief Minister said. “But it also brings us nothing to fear and everything to fight for.”
There must be a deal to be done - swap Gibraltar for Ibiza.
I suspect that Gibraltar is the Brexit dead cat that will periodically be thrown on the table to distract from the latest nonsense coming from Brussels or Westminster.
We had Menorca for a while in one of the Wars of the Sucession of something somewhere in 17.... something or other.
So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?
Project Fume.
The EU are really annoyed with us.
Is there something I'm not getting? I thought the whole Gibraltar thing was all about whether or not the UK's exit deal applied to Gibraltar or not, and not whether or not the agreement could proceed?
If so, it's a non-issue. Any sabre-rattling by Spain can be dealt with easily in one of two ways, according to the taste of the Gibraltarian people:
1. Offer them a vote on joining the UK. If Gibraltar decides to become a constituent part of the UK rather than an overseas territory, then the exit deal automatically applies to it. And why not? France already has several remote overseas departments that count as an integral part of the country. 2. If Gibraltar doesn't want to join the UK, then throw so much money at it that any problems caused by Spain are more than compensated for. There are only about thirty thousand people there. How expensive can it be?
We voted to make Gibraltar's future a bilateral issue to be talked about by Spain and the UK. That is what will happen. There's a reason why Gibraltar voted to Remain.
The government's position on Gibraltar has been very clear, it won't do anything against the wishes of the people there. I can't see that changing.
Yep - I agree. All that is happening now is what we were told would happen if we voted to Leave.
Correct - hence the big remain vote on the Rock. Spain will try it on but I suspect little will change there. It's actually the most godawful dump of a place to be fair - just an hour or so away are the beautiful and much cheaper jewels of Jerez and Cadiz!
Gibraltar is weird. In some ways a dump, but if you dig a bit, the history is amazing.
And the money flooding in is now making some parts quite glitzy - almost Monaco like.
The REAL dump is the Spanish town on the other side, La Linea. UGH. Endless drug dealers and squalor. Algeciras is pretty similar. There are some real toilets on that coastline.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
Realpolitik means we'll have to give up Gibraltar for a good Brexit deal, get used to it, we were warned before the referendum.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Suck it up.
Not certain whether to say "no we won't " or "top trolling"!
The insistence that a good deal is impossible without giving up Gibraltar, would indicate medium trolling I would say - there's simply too many other options available to present it as credibly such a binary choice, and therefore angering.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
I disagree - of all the possible compromises , a one off payment is the one that is least likely to cause ructions. The "one off" element is key mind you.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
I don't think so. We have to pay for our liabilities such as pensions, and I think most accept that.
So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?
Project Fume.
The EU are really annoyed with us.
Is there something I'm not getting? I thought the whole Gibraltar thing was all about whether or not the UK's exit deal applied to Gibraltar or not, and not whether or not the agreement could proceed?
If so, it's a non-issue. Any sabre-rattling by Spain can be dealt with easily in one of two ways, according to the taste of the Gibraltarian people:
1. Offer them a vote on joining the UK. If Gibraltar decides to become a constituent part of the UK rather than an overseas territory, then the exit deal automatically applies to it. And why not? France already has several remote overseas departments that count as an integral part of the country. 2. If Gibraltar doesn't want to join the UK, then throw so much money at it that any problems caused by Spain are more than compensated for. There are only about thirty thousand people there. How expensive can it be?
We voted to make Gibraltar's future a bilateral issue to be talked about by Spain and the UK. That is what will happen. There's a reason why Gibraltar voted to Remain.
The government's position on Gibraltar has been very clear, it won't do anything against the wishes of the people there. I can't see that changing.
Yep - I agree. All that is happening now is what we were told would happen if we voted to Leave.
Correct - hence the big remain vote on the Rock. Spain will try it on but I suspect little will change there. It's actually the most godawful dump of a place to be fair - just an hour or so away are the beautiful and much cheaper jewels of Jerez and Cadiz!
La Linea and Algeciras nearby Gibraltar are real dumps though.
They are similar to Gibraltar except cheaper with better quality restaurants. Many local Spaniards from there would however be out of work if they could not go to their jobs in Gibraltar every day.
Cant get scampi and chips with frozen peas washed down with a pint of London Pride though can you. ( I guess and kind of hope!)
Plus Gibraltar is a miserable stain in British history when three freedom fighters were executed in an extra-judicial murder by the British intelligence community.
A way to get around the Gibraltar issue if needs be would be to just make it a full incorporated part of the United Kingdom. Give them a Member of Parliament and keep it fully devolved. Can't be treated differently then.
Someone else suggested this down-thread. Is there a legal basis for this argument?
I am not sure. We "own" it, but I don't think it follows that we can incorporate it into ourselves. Say an eccentric billionaire owned the freehold of a very small Balearic island and left it to the UK in his will, we could not turn it into part of the UK.
Ireland and Scotland were incorporated into BG/UK. True, neither was a dependency but the principle's much the same. There's no problem with it in international law - Puerto Rico will be holding a referendum later this year on whether to adopt US statehood or whether to become independent. I'd expect that Gibraltar would hold a referendum too before any legislation was introduced.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
No she won't. Cash is going to change hands, pensions for example, and probably quite a lot beyond that. As long as it's not too egregious we'll be happy if it's part of the prize of getting out and back properly on our own two feet and free to make democratic choices of our own.
Mr. T, Hollande can say what he likes. He's keeping the chair warm for a few weeks, then he's off.
Mr. PAW, why would the Germans approach us and not the French for a nuclear umbrella?
You are shown 2 doors. Behind one is the French military and the other is the British military.
Which one do you ask to help you?
we hav elittle left but trident and two carriers with no planes and a couple of bathtubs. Could not beat a handdful of Taliban etc, I don't think I would be brimming with confidence just because UK was helping me. We do not have much of an army left , only big thing we have is Admirals and Generals. We would be sending them over in the train or by bus.
So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?
Project Fume.
The EU are really annoyed with us.
Is there something I'm not getting? I thought the whole Gibraltar thing was all about whether or not the UK's exit deal applied to Gibraltar or not, and not whether or not the agreement could proceed?
If so, it's a non-issue. Any sabre-rattling by Spain can be dealt with easily in one of two ways, according to the taste of the Gibraltarian people:
1. Offer them a vote on joining the UK. If Gibraltar decides to become a constituent part of the UK rather than an overseas territory, then the exit deal automatically applies to it. And why not? France already has several remote overseas departments that count as an integral part of the country. 2. If Gibraltar doesn't want to join the UK, then throw so much money at it that any problems caused by Spain are more than compensated for. There are only about thirty thousand people there. How expensive can it be?
We voted to make Gibraltar's future a bilateral issue to be talked about by Spain and the UK. That is what will happen. There's a reason why Gibraltar voted to Remain.
The government's position on Gibraltar has been very clear, it won't do anything against the wishes of the people there. I can't see that changing.
unless they can benefit by selling them down the river
A way to get around the Gibraltar issue if needs be would be to just make it a full incorporated part of the United Kingdom. Give them a Member of Parliament and keep it fully devolved. Can't be treated differently then.
Someone else suggested this down-thread. Is there a legal basis for this argument?
I am not sure. We "own" it, but I don't think it follows that we can incorporate it into ourselves. Say an eccentric billionaire owned the freehold of a very small Balearic island and left it to the UK in his will, we could not turn it into part of the UK.
The French have done it with all their Colonies. They are even in the EU. Malta almost joined the UK in the same way.
So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?
Project Fume.
The EU are really annoyed with us.
Is there something I'm not getting? I thought the whole Gibraltar thing was all about whether or not the UK's exit deal applied to Gibraltar or not, and not whether or not the agreement could proceed?
If so, it's a non-issue. Any sabre-rattling by Spain can be dealt with easily in one of two ways, according to the taste of the Gibraltarian people:
1. Offer them a vote on joining the UK. If Gibraltar decides to become a constituent part of the UK rather than an overseas territory, then the exit deal automatically applies to it. And why not? France already has several remote overseas departments that count as an integral part of the country. 2. If Gibraltar doesn't want to join the UK, then throw so much money at it that any problems caused by Spain are more than compensated for. There are only about thirty thousand people there. How expensive can it be?
We voted to make Gibraltar's future a bilateral issue to be talked about by Spain and the UK. That is what will happen. There's a reason why Gibraltar voted to Remain.
The government's position on Gibraltar has been very clear, it won't do anything against the wishes of the people there. I can't see that changing.
unless they can benefit by selling them down the river
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
So? The EU no longer care what we think. Our papers can fulminate and fume as much as they like and will not make a jot of difference.
It will come down to politics and money. The sad thing is that the EU never let commonsense get in the way of politics.
What I mean is British political opinion, which basically means the Tory party, will decide whether we accept the deal the EU offers. If that deal is contingent on our handing over Gibraltar, against the wishes of the Gibraltarians, then there simply won't be a deal. Hard Brexit.
If Spain is clever they might ask for some prospect of shared sovereignty in the future.
Let's give Spain the prospect of shared sovereignty for market access in the same way the EU gave us the prospect of CAP reform for part of our rebate.
There must be a deal to be done - swap Gibraltar for Ibiza.
I suspect that Gibraltar is the Brexit dead cat that will periodically be thrown on the table to distract from the latest nonsense coming from Brussels or Westminster.
We had Menorca for a while in one of the Wars of the Sucession of something somewhere in 17.... something or other.
So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?
Project Fume.
The EU are really annoyed with us.
Is there something I'm not getting? I thought the whole Gibraltar thing was all about whether or not the UK's exit deal applied to Gibraltar or not, and not whether or not the agreement could proceed?
We voted to make Gibraltar's future a bilateral issue to be talked about by Spain and the UK. That is what will happen. There's a reason why Gibraltar voted to Remain.
The government's position on Gibraltar has been very clear, it won't do anything against the wishes of the people there. I can't see that changing.
unless they can benefit by selling them down the river
Maybe Labour would. I seriously doubt May would.
Corbyn would put a bow on it and include shipping.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
I don't think so. We have to pay for our liabilities such as pensions, and I think most accept that.
Just as you will have to do for Scotland soon as well
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
I don't think so. We have to pay for our liabilities such as pensions, and I think most accept that.
Just as you will have to do for Scotland soon as well
So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?
Project Fume.
The EU are really annoyed with us.
Is there something I'm not getting? I thought the whole Gibraltar thing was all about whether or not the UK's exit deal applied to Gibraltar or not, and not whether or not the agreement could proceed?
If so, it's a non-issue. Any sabre-rattling by Spain can be dealt with easily in one of two ways, according to the taste of the Gibraltarian people:
1. Offer them a vote on joining the UK. If Gibraltar decides to become a constituent part of the UK rather than an overseas territory, then the exit deal automatically applies to it. And why not? France already has several remote overseas departments that count as an integral part of the country. 2. If Gibraltar doesn't want to join the UK, then throw so much money at it that any problems caused by Spain are more than compensated for. There are only about thirty thousand people there. How expensive can it be?
We voted to make Gibraltar's future a bilateral issue to be talked about by Spain and the UK. That is what will happen. There's a reason why Gibraltar voted to Remain.
The government's position on Gibraltar has been very clear, it won't do anything against the wishes of the people there. I can't see that changing.
unless they can benefit by selling them down the river
You seem to forget we went to war with Argentina over a bunch of islands in the Antarctic that no one had previously heard of.
Gibraltar looms much larger in the British subconscious.
I consider any moves by the EU to try and detach British sovereign territory from the UK - as a price of Brexit - a hostile act.
If the EU pursues this, it might want to consider that the UK could also pursue alternatives to supporting the integrity of the EU in future too, including encouraging other non-Eurozone states to Leave and form a looser European free-trading group with the UK as well.
So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?
Project Fume.
The EU are really annoyed with us.
Is there something I'm not getting? I thought the whole Gibraltar thing was all about whether or not the UK's exit deal applied to Gibraltar or not, and not whether or not the agreement could proceed?
If so, it's a non-issue. Any sabre-rattling by Spain can be dealt with easily in one of two ways, according to the taste of the Gibraltarian people:
1. Offer them a vote on joining the UK. If Gibraltar decides to become a constituent part of the UK rather than an overseas territory, then the exit deal automatically applies to it. And why not? France already has several remote overseas departments that count as an integral part of the country. 2. If Gibraltar doesn't want to join the UK, then throw so much money at it that any problems caused by Spain are more than compensated for. There are only about thirty thousand people there. How expensive can it be?
We voted to make Gibraltar's future a bilateral issue to be talked about by Spain and the UK. That is what will happen. There's a reason why Gibraltar voted to Remain.
The government's position on Gibraltar has been very clear, it won't do anything against the wishes of the people there. I can't see that changing.
unless they can benefit by selling them down the river
You seem to forget we went to war with Argentina over a bunch of islands in the Antarctic that no one had previously heard of.
Gibraltar looms much larger in the British subconscious.
That was about more than the Falklands mind, possible oil finds, Antarctica etc. But on the Falklands I agree, if the residents wanted it we should incorporate them. Like France with Reunion.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
I think the Tory party entirely accepts we will have to pay money. Gibraltar is totally different.
I would sell the shirt on my back before I sold out Gibraltar.
So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?
Project Fume.
The EU are really annoyed with us.
Is there something I'm not getting? I thought the whole Gibraltar thing was all about whether or not the UK's exit deal applied to Gibraltar or not, and not whether or not the agreement could proceed?
If so, it's a non-issue. Any sabre-rattling by Spain can be dealt with easily in one of two ways, according to the taste of the Gibraltarian people:
1. Offer them a vote on joining the UK. If Gibraltar decides to become a constituent part of the UK rather than an overseas territory, then the exit deal automatically applies to it. And why not? France already has several remote overseas departments that count as an integral part of the country. 2. If Gibraltar doesn't want to join the UK, then throw so much money at it that any problems caused by Spain are more than compensated for. There are only about thirty thousand people there. How expensive can it be?
We voted to make Gibraltar's future a bilateral issue to be talked about by Spain and the UK. That is what will happen. There's a reason why Gibraltar voted to Remain.
The government's position on Gibraltar has been very clear, it won't do anything against the wishes of the people there. I can't see that changing.
unless they can benefit by selling them down the river
Maybe Labour would. I seriously doubt May would.
Corbyn would.
I can't see any other political leader agreeing to it, not even the Lib Dems, without the express agreement of the Gibraltarians in a referendum. Which is, of course, highly unlikely. We are committed to their self-determination.
I fear Mr Farron would give up Westmorland never mind Gibraltar if he thought he could stop Brexit that way.
So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?
Project Fume.
The EU are really annoyed with us.
Is there something I'm not getting? I thought the whole Gibraltar thing was all about whether or not the UK's exit deal applied to Gibraltar or not, and not whether or not the agreement could proceed?
We voted to make Gibraltar's future a bilateral issue to be talked about by Spain and the UK. That is what will happen. There's a reason why Gibraltar voted to Remain.
The government's position on Gibraltar has been very clear, it won't do anything against the wishes of the people there. I can't see that changing.
unless they can benefit by selling them down the river
Maybe Labour would. I seriously doubt May would.
Corbyn would put a bow on it and include shipping.
Joking aside, I don’t think Jeremy Corbyn has ever expressed an opinion on Gibraltar. No doubt he'll be asked for one soon enough.
A way to get around the Gibraltar issue if needs be would be to just make it a full incorporated part of the United Kingdom. Give them a Member of Parliament and keep it fully devolved. Can't be treated differently then.
Someone else suggested this down-thread. Is there a legal basis for this argument?
I am not sure. We "own" it, but I don't think it follows that we can incorporate it into ourselves. Say an eccentric billionaire owned the freehold of a very small Balearic island and left it to the UK in his will, we could not turn it into part of the UK.
Ireland and Scotland were incorporated into BG/UK. True, neither was a dependency but the principle's much the same. There's no problem with it in international law - Puerto Rico will be holding a referendum later this year on whether to adopt US statehood or whether to become independent. I'd expect that Gibraltar would hold a referendum too before any legislation was introduced.
So, instead of the house crumbling we're building an extension?
There must be a deal to be done - swap Gibraltar for Ibiza.
I suspect that Gibraltar is the Brexit dead cat that will periodically be thrown on the table to distract from the latest nonsense coming from Brussels or Westminster.
We had Menorca for a while in one of the Wars of the Sucession of something somewhere in 17.... something or other.
And Corsica for a bit IIRC.
And Heligoland! Everyone forgets Heligoland. Poor old Heligoland, so often forgotten.
On this:
On 18 April 1947, the Royal Navy detonated 6,700 tonnes of explosives ("Big Bang" or "British Bang"), creating one of the biggest single non-nuclear detonations in history.[32] Though the attack was aimed at the fortifications, the island's total destruction would have been accepted.
As this clause is generally being seen as a diplomatic coup for Spain, is it just possible that they've already given assurances behind the scenes that they will not do anything to make waves over Scotland?
As this clause is generally being seen as a diplomatic coup for Spain, is it just possible that they've already given assurances behind the scenes that they will not do anything to make waves over Scotland?
A way to get around the Gibraltar issue if needs be would be to just make it a full incorporated part of the United Kingdom. Give them a Member of Parliament and keep it fully devolved. Can't be treated differently then.
Someone else suggested this down-thread. Is there a legal basis for this argument?
I am not sure. We "own" it, but I don't think it follows that we can incorporate it into ourselves. Say an eccentric billionaire owned the freehold of a very small Balearic island and left it to the UK in his will, we could not turn it into part of the UK.
Ireland and Scotland were incorporated into BG/UK. True, neither was a dependency but the principle's much the same. There's no problem with it in international law - Puerto Rico will be holding a referendum later this year on whether to adopt US statehood or whether to become independent. I'd expect that Gibraltar would hold a referendum too before any legislation was introduced.
I'm not sure the Treaty of Utrecht allows us to incorporate it into the UK?
FWIW I think we should, and do the same with all the other Crown Colonies and Dependencies, including the Falklands. And maybe Australia.
Having HM the Q as US head of state will save Americans agonsing over defenestrating President Trump....
Of course if we get Diamond Hard Brexit there are advantages. We won't have to give them a fucking centime.
Coverage on the news last night of the Malta "jolly" they were on this week showed a lavish event with high production values so the great and the good of the EU inner circle could - well - it wasn't clear what they were up to - advertising the EU I think.
Ireland is about to move from the hand out to hand over column - I wonder how happy they will be to pony up for these excesses.
The Germans, Dutch and the non EZ Swedes and Danes all lose their Thatcher Rebate as well.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
So? The EU no longer care what we think. Our papers can fulminate and fume as much as they like and will not make a jot of difference.
It will come down to politics and money. The sad thing is that the EU never let commonsense get in the way of politics.
What I mean is British political opinion, which basically means the Tory party, will decide whether we accept the deal the EU offers. If that deal is contingent on our handing over Gibraltar, against the wishes of the Gibraltarians, then there simply won't be a deal. Hard Brexit.
If Spain is clever they might ask for some prospect of shared sovereignty in the future.
They have. Many times.
It's worth pointing out that Spain have been playing up over Gibraltar *for years*. This waaay predates Cameron's Bloomberg speech in 2013, when there wasn't a hint of an iota that the UK might ever even consider Leaving the EU.
Spain's actions have included:
> Closing the border, routinely, to apply political pressure to the UK and Gibraltar > Illegal fishing within Gibraltarian territorial waters > Illegal salvage operations within Gibraltarian territorial waters > Ramming UK police boats > Aggressively challenging Royal Navy patrol boats > Deliberately processing customs checks extremely slowly on the border, to piss off Gibraltarian residents
All because the British citizens of Gibraltar have consistently rejected any overtures by Spain for joint sovereignty by overwhelming margins in democratic votes.
And.. they are hypocrites. The legal ceding of Gibraltar to the UK (before the UK even came into existence) is purported to be an outrage whilst they maintain their own colonies on the mainland of Morroco, Ceuta and Melilla, and defend them vigorously.
They are just trying it on. Because the bastards sniff an opportunity.
Not only should we reject Spain's claims outright, we should make clear we will never, ever visit the subject again unless the Gibraltarians expressly call for it in a democratic vote.
As this clause is generally being seen as a diplomatic coup for Spain, is it just possible that they've already given assurances behind the scenes that they will not do anything to make waves over Scotland?
Let's give Spain the prospect of shared sovereignty for market access in the same way the EU gave us the prospect of CAP reform for part of our rebate.
The idea that Britain, France, Germany etc will delay the Brexit deal for a nano-second over Gibraltar is fanciful. As long as the Union flag continues to fly over the Rock, they don't care. Spain will probably get some kind of oversight council, a bit like Ireland in the Good Friday Agreement and Gibraltar will have to deal with Spain direct. I can't imagine Britain would want to complicate an already fraught Brexit negotiation with a new constitutional arrangement for Gibraltar (with implications also for Scotland "Now's not the time").
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Has Spain much of a claim? It has been British for over three hundred years. Before that Spain had it for around two hundred years since the conquest of the peninsula by Aragon and Castile. Before then, for around seven or eight hundred years it was Moorish. Perhaps Morocco has the best entitlement. The argument that it is on the European side of the straits hardly washes, as Spain has territories (eg Cueta) on the African side.
Plus Gibraltar is a miserable stain in British history when three freedom fighters were executed in an extra-judicial murder by the British intelligence community.
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Let's give Spain the prospect of shared sovereignty for market access in the same way the EU gave us the prospect of CAP reform for part of our rebate.
Let us stop bartering people for cash.
It is nice to agree wholeheartedly with you for a change.
Mr. D, it's like nasty Tory cuts before the 2010 election, unlike the nice Labour cuts that would've happened. The evil nasty UK position on wanting to sort out citizen rights [but being rebuffed] is entirely different to the lovely, progressive, EU position on not bothering much.
Mr. Fernando, quite. The Spanish are just being silly buggers.
Given that any complex deal requires unanimity anyway, what difference does the EU saying that a deal only applies to Gibraltar if Spain agrees anyway? That was always the case. Spain haven't been given any new veto or anything else, it is just a statement of the obvious that given unanimity is required that includes getting Spain to agree.
The idea that's good news for the Scots is like saying a heatwave warning is good news for snowmen.
Has Spain much of a claim? It has been British for over three hundred years. Before that Spain had it for around two hundred years since the conquest of the peninsula by Aragon and Castile. Before then, for around seven or eight hundred years it was Moorish. Perhaps Morocco has the best entitlement. The argument that it is on the European side of the straits hardly washes, as Spain has territories (eg Cueta) on the African side.
What I mean is British political opinion, which basically means the Tory party, will decide whether we accept the deal the EU offers. If that deal is contingent on our handing over Gibraltar, against the wishes of the Gibraltarians, then there simply won't be a deal. Hard Brexit.
If Spain is clever they might ask for some prospect of shared sovereignty in the future.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
It's Remoaners who seem keen to welch on agreements and responsibilities....
Realistically, when is the last point the Labour Party could get rid of Corbyn and still have time to select a replacement before the 2020 GE? Does anybody have definitive view on this?
In theory we could have aleadership election summer 2019 with the new leader announced at autumn conference. 7 months before the GE wouldn't give them any chance to establish themselves, so likely to be too late to turn things around.
I would say that conference 2018 is the last sensible time to get a new leader. In a year and a half the public will get to know them and be able to make up their minds if he/she is a PM in waiting.
A contrary view would be that a new leader elected in 2019 might still have a honeymoon bonus.
What I mean is British political opinion, which basically means the Tory party, will decide whether we accept the deal the EU offers. If that deal is contingent on our handing over Gibraltar, against the wishes of the Gibraltarians, then there simply won't be a deal. Hard Brexit.
If Spain is clever they might ask for some prospect of shared sovereignty in the future.
Given that any complex deal requires unanimity anyway, what difference does the EU saying that a deal only applies to Gibraltar if Spain agrees anyway? That was always the case. Spain haven't been given any new veto or anything else, it is just a statement of the obvious that given unanimity is required that includes getting Spain to agree.
The idea that's good news for the Scots is like saying a heatwave warning is good news for snowmen.
Certainly caused plenty of frothing at the mouth on here. The yoons are baying at the moon, mobilising Dad's Army and threatening Johnny foreigner big trouble. Oh how we laugh.
What I mean is British political opinion, which basically means the Tory party, will decide whether we accept the deal the EU offers. If that deal is contingent on our handing over Gibraltar, against the wishes of the Gibraltarians, then there simply won't be a deal. Hard Brexit.
If Spain is clever they might ask for some prospect of shared sovereignty in the future.
Who said anything about handing over Gibraltar?
I think TSE has given up pushing 'Osborne for PM' so he's trying something equally as ludicrous....
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
It's Remoaners who seem keen to welch on agreements and responsibilities....
HA HA , lady Haw Haw has been wheeled in to the fray, waving her union jack and brandishing her signed St Theresa letter.
> Closing the border, routinely, to apply political pressure to the UK and Gibraltar > Illegal fishing within Gibraltarian territorial waters > Illegal salvage operations within Gibraltarian territorial waters > Ramming UK police boats > Aggressively challenging Royal Navy patrol boats > Deliberately processing customs checks extremely slowly on the border, to piss off Gibraltarian residents
All because the British citizens of Gibraltar have consistently rejected any overtures by Spain for joint sovereignty by overwhelming margins in democratic votes.
And.. they are hypocrites. The legal ceding of Gibraltar to the UK (before the UK even came into existence) is purported to be an outrage whilst they maintain their own colonies on the mainland of Morroco, Ceuta and Melilla, and defend them vigorously.
They are just trying it on. Because the bastards sniff an opportunity.
Not only should we reject Spain's claims outright, we should make clear we will never, ever visit the subject again unless the Gibraltarians expressly call for it in a democratic vote.
That's Gibraltar's problem as far as I am concerned. If they want to be a mouse lying down next to an elephant they need to find a way of getting on with the elephant. Our only responsibility is to prevent any takeover by force. AFAIK there's no current risk of that.
FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?
There is almostalways(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results
(*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.
Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.
Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
I am unaware of any evidence of 'swingback' which has not been preceded by a 'swingaway'.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
It's Remoaners who seem keen to welch on agreements and responsibilities....
HA HA , lady Haw Haw has been wheeled in to the fray, waving her union jack and brandishing her signed St Theresa letter.
these findings raise severe doubts about the wisdom of the Scottish government’s decision to turn a disagreement about what Brexit should mean into the crux of an argument as to why Scotland should have a second opportunity to back leaving the UK.
It will be almost worth the humiliation of being seen reading the Wail if handing it over is seriously suggested. Asbestos fingers would be needed to handle the paper.
But it's really not going to happen. Look at the UK political reaction already
Theresa May is going to have an army of Brexiteers baying for her blood if she so much as agrees to pay a penny as an exit payment. She may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb...
It's Remoaners who seem keen to welch on agreements and responsibilities....
HA HA , lady Haw Haw has been wheeled in to the fray, waving her union jack and brandishing her signed St Theresa letter.
Given that any complex deal requires unanimity anyway, what difference does the EU saying that a deal only applies to Gibraltar if Spain agrees anyway? That was always the case. Spain haven't been given any new veto or anything else, it is just a statement of the obvious that given unanimity is required that includes getting Spain to agree.
The idea that's good news for the Scots is like saying a heatwave warning is good news for snowmen.
Certainly caused plenty of frothing at the mouth on here. The yoons are baying at the moon, mobilising Dad's Army and threatening Johnny foreigner big trouble. Oh how we laugh.
I think folks need to better pace their froth for health reasons !! - This early days
"A seismic shift is needed for Corbyn to win in 2020. But it could happen
So what if the Labour leader isn’t a whizz with a teleprompter? He has great policies, his integrity is rock solid – and with help, he could still sweep to power"
Comments
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Suck it up.
First of all, we have no rights to give away sovereign territory against the wishes of the people.
WTO would be better than giving away Gib.
Yes, it is. That is often the case in life
Ireland is about to move from the hand out to hand over column - I wonder how happy they will be to pony up for these excesses.
I suspect that Gibraltar is the Brexit dead cat that will periodically be thrown on the table to distract from the latest nonsense coming from Brussels or Westminster.
https://twitter.com/gibraltaropress/status/847739264200724482
hes proud of his legacy
“As far as we are concerned, this day brings us nothing to celebrate,” the Chief Minister said.
“But it also brings us nothing to fear and everything to fight for.”
And the Isle of Wight to Luxembourg because the EU is so wonderful and we are so poor and weak and awful.
Keep off the expresso
Dave is a leaver.
It will come down to politics and money. The sad thing is that the EU never let commonsense get in the way of politics.
We should give Manchester to France.
But giving up a territory without the approval of those living there has always been contrary to UK policy.
If the EU pursues this, it might want to consider that the UK could also pursue alternatives to supporting the integrity of the EU in future too, including encouraging other non-Eurozone states to Leave and form a looser European free-trading group with the UK as well.
Something Jean-Claude would understand.
On 18 April 1947, the Royal Navy detonated 6,700 tonnes of explosives ("Big Bang" or "British Bang"), creating one of the biggest single non-nuclear detonations in history.[32] Though the attack was aimed at the fortifications, the island's total destruction would have been accepted.
Hah!
It's worth pointing out that Spain have been playing up over Gibraltar *for years*. This waaay predates Cameron's Bloomberg speech in 2013, when there wasn't a hint of an iota that the UK might ever even consider Leaving the EU.
Spain's actions have included:
> Closing the border, routinely, to apply political pressure to the UK and Gibraltar
> Illegal fishing within Gibraltarian territorial waters
> Illegal salvage operations within Gibraltarian territorial waters
> Ramming UK police boats
> Aggressively challenging Royal Navy patrol boats
> Deliberately processing customs checks extremely slowly on the border, to piss off Gibraltarian residents
All because the British citizens of Gibraltar have consistently rejected any overtures by Spain for joint sovereignty by overwhelming margins in democratic votes.
And.. they are hypocrites. The legal ceding of Gibraltar to the UK (before the UK even came into existence) is purported to be an outrage whilst they maintain their own colonies on the mainland of Morroco, Ceuta and Melilla, and defend them vigorously.
They are just trying it on. Because the bastards sniff an opportunity.
Not only should we reject Spain's claims outright, we should make clear we will never, ever visit the subject again unless the Gibraltarians expressly call for it in a democratic vote.
Mr. Fernando, quite. The Spanish are just being silly buggers.
The idea that's good news for the Scots is like saying a heatwave warning is good news for snowmen.
Stay.
It is clear all Brexiteers need to be investigated by MI5 to make sure they aren't working for Russia or France.
Intern all Brexiteers until we can find out where their true loyalties lie.
https://twitter.com/PlatoSays
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/30/scots-back-sturgeon-brexit-polls
So what if the Labour leader isn’t a whizz with a teleprompter? He has great policies, his integrity is rock solid – and with help, he could still sweep to power"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/31/jeremy-corbyn-labour-party-general-election-2020