What is a nation state and what is it for? Surely, they are collections of people bonded by a series of common threads who consent to giving up personal sovereignty in a number of areas because they believe that by pooling it and working together they achieve better outcomes. There is a major philosophical debate to be had about whether the most important thing is the common thread or the desire for the best possible outcome.
Is the UK a nation state? That is a big, big question. It is a state, undoubtedly - but there is a strong argument that it is a collection of nations bonded by common ties who have agreed that working together produces the best outcomes. The same could be said of Spain, Italy, even France, perhaps Germany. One of those common ties uniting the peoples of the different nations of the UK - a consensus about being an EU member state - has been severed and many are asking whether being a part of the UK is now the way to produce the best possible outcomes.
All of which is a long winded way of saying that Mr Yates seems to be an outcomes man. He believes that what matters most to people is quality of life and standard of living, not the nature of the state in which they live. I don't agree with him, but I do believe that Brexiteers - especially well off ones - have not given enough thought to standard of living and quality of life issues, and that this will end up causing further alienation among a lot of British voters, many of whom chose Leave because they felt left behind and ignored, and believed Brexit would make life better for them and their families.
"It has been a colossal error by Davos Man left-wingers to think of nation-states as embarrassing anachronisms hostile to democracy"
A straw man if ever I saw one. Who actually believes that nation states are embarrassing anachronisms outside those on the far left who supported Brexit?
Me. Unfortunately not many people agree with me, and my invitation to Davos keeps getting lost in the post.
Greetings from Hong Kong. Spent yesterday in Shenzhen hearing from the Chinese that they no longer see the UK as the prime investment venue they once did. Brexit Britain has a huge task on its hands. But that is the will of the people for you. At least our bananas will soon be bendier and we'll have the freedom to kill more newts.
Weird that the Chinese just bought the Cheesegrater, then
Not really. There's a difference between billionaires getting their cash out of a country with no independent judiciary and businesses making decisions about where to open new facilities and develop products.
Fuck 'em. We're Britain. We don't decide our fundamental issues of governance on the basis of Chinese investment decisions.
We did the Industrial Revolution, and we won the Cold War, and we defeated Hitler (alone, at one point), and we invented parliamentary democracy. THIS IS ENGLAND.
You're such a total nonce. Rejoice, rejoice.
That's the spirit. It's great being wealthy and sheltered from the consequences of all this, isn't it?
You're still a nonce
Nonces provide protection against replay attacks. What have you ever done for a crypto-system?
Yes, I think a lot of the economic arguments were very outcomes-centred - and only a particular class of outcomes, which means an economist's "best possible outcome" need not be particularly closely aligned with what the chap on the Clapham omnibus thinks is "best".
I do think the focus on outcomes rather than stories is one reason the economic arguments failed to resonate much (on either side - there were a few Economists for Brexit, but very few Brexiteers voted this way because they were driven by economic considerations).
Similarly, if Scotland leaves the UK, I doubt it will be because the bulk of the Scottish electorate feel the road to Brussels is paved in gold, but more likely because they have bought in to a particular story about their country and their own identity.
Re "Brexiteers - especially well off ones - have not given enough thought to standard of living and quality of life issues, and that this will end up causing further alienation among a lot of British voters, many of whom chose Leave because they felt left behind and ignored, and believed Brexit would make life better for them and their families" ... there's truth in there, and it will be interesting to see how big a play for these groups (if at all) the Conservatives bother making. But specifically re "a lot of British voters" - a lot of these folks' problem is that they are actually non-voters, which puts you lower on a politician's list of people to please, or even remember at all. Also, and something far less culpable, they generally have the misfortune of living in fairly socioeconomically homogeneous areas in a country with FPTP elections.
But to reiterate my earlier point - if these people felt left behind and ignored by the political establishment, it's interesting (and turned out to be vital) that they didn't see Brussels as their City On A Hill, the blue-with-yellow-stars as their flag, for their people, the Eurocrats as their potential saviours - the ones who will actually remember and care and stick up for them when the crooks of Westminster repeatedly let them down. In some alternative history, the European Movement could have been a mass movement of the continent's working class. (Not entirely irrational or implausible - if you think that globalisation and multinationals means that mere middling-sized nation states are impotent to protect the rights of the little guy, you've got to Go Large). Instead, there was little love or loyalty of the masses for The Project. On the one hand, it was cunning and superficial for a certain shade of right-wing Brexiteer to exploit these people's votes to shape a future even more inimical to them. On t'other - how could those heart-set on building the European dream, and controlling powerful institutions and levers of financial largesse, have failed so spectacularly to manufacture even a soupçon of working-class consent?
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
It's richer and more dynamic than Shanghai? I'm surprised.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
It's richer and more dynamic than Shanghai? I'm surprised.
It's certainly up there on the wealth front - though you are probably right that Shanghai is richer. In terms of dynamism, I would say it is well ahead of Shanghai - the variety of technology business it now attracts from a size and sector perspective is very impressive. I spent the morning at Huawei's vast campus in the city and that is matched by the ones owned by the likes of ZTE and TenCent (which has just bought a 5% stake in Tesla for $1.7 billion); then in the afternoon I went to the science park, which is kinda neat, as they say in Silicon Valley :-). Hong Kong and Shenzhen look set to team up to create a new park that will straddle the border.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
So Shenzhen Chinese property billionaire landowners good, London Chinese property billionaires bad, London thriller writer near billionaires bad? I m not seeing a consistent principle here.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
So Shenzhen Chinese property billionaire landowners good, London Chinese property billionaires bad, London thriller writer near billionaires bad? I m not seeing a consistent principle here.
You did not understand my post. I think that is your problem here.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
The internal immigrants are not being made into billionaire landlords. You sound like someone claiming that the serf population of London loved the feudal system became it lifted the Grosvenor family out of poverty.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
it's no different than people going to London.
The Londoners can sell their council house and buy Aberystwyth, The immigrants to London live a marginal life due to high costs.
The difference between Shenzen and London is China has no social safety net. I find your admiration for their system a bit surprising.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
So Shenzhen Chinese property billionaire landowners good, London Chinese property billionaires bad, London thriller writer near billionaires bad? I m not seeing a consistent principle here.
You did not understand my post. I think that is your problem here.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
it's no different than people going to London.
The Londoners can sell their council house and buy Aberystwyth, The immigrants to London live a marginal life due to high costs.
The difference between Shenzen and London is China has no social safety net. I find your admiration for their system a bit surprising.
Yes, London is also a very successful city.
I am not sure that me reporting on what has been achieved in Shenzhen over the last four decades equates to admiration for the Chinese system. It is, though, a matter of fact that the Chinese people as a whole have enjoyed a huge leap forward in living standards since the 1970s. Whether we like it or not, that has changed the country beyond recognition. My point is precisely that now those changes have happened, not having a fully functioning welfare system is going to become an issue in a way that it was not when people were all dirt poor and had lower expectations from life.
We may have just committed national suicide, but fuck it, we're not easily scared.
You sound scared.
lol. I've drunk half a bottle of vintage Veuve, I'm totally minted, I am six figures richer than I was a day ago, and I'm fucking an incredibly hot 21 year old who says my books make her cry.
I've had some times in my life when I've been truly scared. Like, when I spent that first night in prison on a rape charge. Or indeed waiting for the rape trial verdict at the Old Bailey.
The time I was nearly knifed in a Marseilles slum. Being two inches from a pride of lions without a gun. A heroin overdose in Islington. A heroin overdose in Bloomsbury. The time I ended up alone in the Siberian tundra. The night I was held at gunpoint by Hezbollah in the Lebanon in a village being shelled and strafed by the Israeli military.
And so on, and so forth.
Right now? No, I would not characterise my mood as *scared*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Yep definitely scared.
Actually if you want the truth I am simultaneously excited, nervous and a bit trembly. This is a risk. I know it. Hence the nerves. And yet I do believe we have made the right if fateful choice and I really do despise europhile traitors and liars who got us into this position, people like you.
And the deepest part of me is happy, even as I worry about the future, like all human beings. Because I've wanted this for decades: longed for it, even.
But it isn't scary. Death is scary. Cancer is scary. War is scary. This is not scary. Get a grip.
Well of course you are insulated from any scary stuff (hunger is scary, losing your job is scary, higher bills are scary, uncertainty can be scary) so rightly should you celebrate.
I am genuinely perplexed by the demon that the EU was painted as being. It was never such a scary thing. As the Secretary of State for Brexit pointed out (proving himself to date the most sane of the mad Brexiteers).
We, you, voted for Brexit because we could. Like the drunk looking for his wallet underneath the lamppost. I find it a shame because I believe the EU was genuinely a force for good in more ways than economically but short of a political union. More people disagreed with me than agreed with me. As I have often said, such is it at a GE when Labour get in. I fundamentally don't get the reason for people to vote Labour, but such is the will of the people.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
So Shenzhen Chinese property billionaire landowners good, London Chinese property billionaires bad, London thriller writer near billionaires bad? I m not seeing a consistent principle here.
You did not understand my post. I think that is your problem here.
Yes I did.
Nope - you seem to think I am saying, and I quote, "Shenzhen Chinese property billionaire landowners good, London Chinese property billionaires bad, London thriller writer near billionaires bad". I am not.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
it's no different than people going to London.
The Londoners can sell their council house and buy Aberystwyth, The immigrants to London live a marginal life due to high costs.
The difference between Shenzen and London is China has no social safety net. I find your admiration for their system a bit surprising.
Yes, London is also a very successful city.
I am not sure that me reporting on what has been achieved in Shenzhen over the last four decades equates to admiration for the Chinese system. It is, though, a matter of fact that the Chinese people as a whole have enjoyed a huge leap forward in living standards since the 1970s. Whether we like it or not, that has changed the country beyond recognition. My point is precisely that now those changes have happened, not having a fully functioning welfare system is going to become an issue in way that it was not when people were all dirt poor and had lower expectations from life.
well reading down the thread youve confused most people with your approach
Shenzen has only become rich by taking a path to industrialisation akin to Victorian Britain.
It ditched socialism.
What happens next is anyones guess, my own view is they'll imitate Singapore rather than Europe.
Personally I found much to be admired in the dream of the EU, but that is all it was, a dream, it did not reflect what the institution was. It had absolute contempt for anyone who desired reform in a direction it did not like and if it proves capable of meeting the varied demands of its current members, it will only be because of the shock of Brexit forcing it, as it was incapable previously as it had no desire to change - lip service would be paid at times of crisis, then the contempt would show itself again.
In the days and weeks after the vote, I remember being genuinely surprised that the EU did not invite us back to the negotiation table, perhaps with the offer of an opt-out on free movement, as the article I linked to suggested.
Since then, I've spent a lot of time wondering why not. I had always assumed the EU to be a fundamentally pragmatic institution, willing to bend the rules to get its way - look at how they bent the rules for Euro membership. Surely they would bend the rules to keep us in the club?
But it seems they're only willing to bend the rules when the direction of travel is in one way - closer union feeling less like a dream and more like the event horizon of a black hole from which one cannot escape.
I can't decide if this makes the EU idealistic or merely dogmatic. Is it an ideal that, to British ears, simply doesn't translate?
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
it's no different than people going to London.
The Londoners can sell their council house and buy Aberystwyth, The immigrants to London live a marginal life due to high costs.
The difference between Shenzen and London is China has no social safety net. I find your admiration for their system a bit surprising.
Yes, London is also a very successful city.
I am not when people were all dirt poor and had lower expectations from life.
well reading down the thread youve confused most people with your approach
Shenzen has only become rich by taking a path to industrialisation akin to Victorian Britain.
It ditched socialism.
What happens next is anyones guess, my own view is they'll imitate Singapore rather than Europe.
My sense is that a few people wish to paint me as a vile lefty hypocrite and so have half read and half understood what I wrote. And, yep, Singapore may well be the model for China:
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
The internal immigrants are not being made into billionaire landlords. You sound like someone claiming that the serf population of London loved the feudal system became it lifted the Grosvenor family out of poverty.
You sound like someone who wants to paint me as a vile, metropolitan, lefty hypocrite. I will leave you to it.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
it's no different than people going to London.
The Londoners can sell their council house and buy Aberystwyth, The immigrants to London live a marginal life due to high costs.
The difference between Shenzen and London is China has no social safety net. I find your admiration for their system a bit surprising.
Yes, London is also a very successful city.
I am not sure that me reporting on what has been achieved in Shenzhen over the last four decades equates to admiration for the Chinese system. It is, though, a matter of fact that the Chinese people as a whole have enjoyed a huge leap forward in living standards since the 1970s. Whether we like it or not, that has changed the country beyond recognition. My point is precisely that now those changes have happened, not having a fully functioning welfare system is going to become an issue in a way that it was not when people were all dirt poor and had lower expectations from life.
I don't accept your premise that the UK will be worse-off and marginalised outside the EU.
The UK is a very rich country inside the EU. It will continue to be a very rich country outside the EU. Yes, leaving an economic union will raise non-tariff barriers to trading within it, but I think the impact of this is exaggerated.
Our new global political alliances and trading agreements are yet to be formed, and it is very easy to count costs and discount any opportunities to reach a skewed conclusion.
(What worries me was that I was the only one to get the reference)
Because the phrase that concerns you was "it is finished" not "it is done?"
Although some might think that Eloi Eloi lama sabachthami is more appropriate. (Apologies if I have spelt it wrong but it late here and it's been a long time since I studied theology seriously)
Thanks for the advance warning of the charity funding launch on Monday. We took advantage of the information! I hope it went well
We only had capacity to review 400 applications this time round. Closed in 26 minutes. If you want to PM me we can swap email so I can keep an eye out for the proposal. I'm not involved in the screen/diligence process but am once it gets to the board for grants.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
So Shenzhen Chinese property billionaire landowners good, London Chinese property billionaires bad, London thriller writer near billionaires bad? I m not seeing a consistent principle here.
You did not understand my post. I think that is your problem here.
Yes I did.
Nope - you seem to think I am saying, and I quote, "Shenzhen Chinese property billionaire landowners good, London Chinese property billionaires bad, London thriller writer near billionaires bad". I am not.
You generalised from "a person of my acquaintance turned out to be a rich landowner" to "people (in general) are so much better off" which is a simple logic fail. I am not trying to paint you as anything.
On another topic entirely, I am , clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
it's no different than people going to London.
The Londoners can sell their council house and buy Aberystwyth, The immigrants to London live a marginal life due to high costs.
The difference between Shenzen and London is China has no social safety net. I find your admiration for their system a bit surprising.
Yes, London is also a very successful city.
I life.
I don't accept your premise that the UK will be worse-off and marginalised outside the EU.
The UK is a very rich country inside the EU. It will continue to be a very rich country outside the EU. Yes, leaving an economic union will raise non-tariff barriers to trading within it, but I think the impact of this is exaggerated.
Our new global political alliances and trading agreements are yet to be formed, and it is very easy to count costs and discount any opportunities to reach a skewed conclusion.
Tariffs are only a part of the story. There is the increased cost of doing business inside the single market that leaving it will bring, whatever tariffs are charged. I can see no conceivable trading deals we can do that will replace the trading advantages inside Europe we are about to lose. I think that leaving the single market will reduce the opportunities that we can enjoy as a country. In my view, it is not the EU that has created our trading problems with the rest of the world, it is us ourselves. And for that reason I think, on balance, we will lose more than we gain when we leave the EU. But we will not fall off a cliff. We will be OK. It's just that Brexit will solve none of our long-term problems and is likely to create a few new ones.
That said, I am not sure what any of that has to do with Shenzhen :-)
Not really. We will still co-operate with Europe and continue to intermingle with them. We simply won't be a part of their formal structures.
I remain cautiously optimistic for Britain and for the EU.
I think our departure will simplify their path to what the elite in the EU seem to want. This is a closely integrated state in which pretty much all the big decisions are made by committee and bureaucrats who know best with countries reduced to local government. They will still need to sell that to their populace of course but that has never troubled them greatly. It looks old fashioned to me but who knows, it may prove very modern indeed as the problems we face become increasingly too complicated for democracy to be meaningful or reliable.
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
The internal immigrants are not being made into billionaire landlords. You sound like someone claiming that the serf population of London loved the feudal system became it lifted the Grosvenor family out of poverty.
You sound like someone who wants to paint me as a vile, metropolitan, lefty hypocrite. I will leave you to it.
For what its worth i thought your story was interesting and you painted an interesting picture of a place of which I know very little,
We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries and 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of some petty nationalists and right wing zealots.
We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries of nearly 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of some petty natinalists and right wing zealots.
This is no time for rejoicing.
Rejoice, rejoice, rejoice. We are also pretty likely going to have at least eight more years of uninterrupted conservative government.
We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries of nearly 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of some petty natinalists and right wing zealots.
This is no time for rejoicing.
Some petty nationalists and right wing zealots, and over 17.4 million voters.
We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries of nearly 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of some petty natinalists and right wing zealots.
This is no time for rejoicing.
Some petty nationalists and right wing zealots, and over 17.4 million voters.
We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries and 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of some petty nationalists and right wing zealots.
This is no time for rejoicing.
Given you've said yourself that civilised attitude levels in large parts of Europe are poor compared to British attitudes, I don't really know what you're on about.....
We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries and 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of some petty nationalists and right wing zealots.
This is no time for rejoicing.
if they wanted us to stay they should have given Dave a proper deal worth staying for . This is a result of the establishment taking voters for granted for too many years . they have forgotten that they are there to serve us, not us serve them
On another topic entirely, I am sure everyone knows the story of Shenzhen: 35 years ago or so a collection of small villages on the Hong Kong/PRC border that was made China's first "capitalist" Special Economic Zone. Since then it has seen its population grow to around 12 million. I was there yesterday visiting a few companies and it's actually much nicer than I remember - pretty green, decent roads, not completely snarled up with traffic, clearly prosperous - though it did help a lot that pollution levels were quite low.
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
so you're arguing for the rawest of raw capitalism ?
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
They have it a whole lot easier than they did back at home. There is a reason why Shenzhen has attracted so many internal immigrants - and it does not have much to do with its beauty or health-giving qualities.
it's no different than people going to London.
The Londoners can sell their council house and buy Aberystwyth, The immigrants to London live a marginal life due to high costs.
The difference between Shenzen and London is China has no social safety net. I find your admiration for their system a bit surprising.
Not entirely true, the Chinese government introduced a minimum income a few years ago
We are leaving the most civilised and civilising club of 28 unique countries and 500,000,000 people to satisfy the xenophbic desires of some petty nationalists and right wing zealots.
This is no time for rejoicing.
You live in the most racist part of the most racist country in the first world, Roger. Les Farage are not a respected 3 generation political dynasty over here. The club also includes delights like Hungary, where the PM's use of shipping containers in a darkly comic homage to Hitler's cattle trucks is so much to Meeks' taste that he sponsors it through indirect taxes. If you can't be arsed to live in tolerant old blighty, don't bitch about it.
Comments
What is a nation state and what is it for? Surely, they are collections of people bonded by a series of common threads who consent to giving up personal sovereignty in a number of areas because they believe that by pooling it and working together they achieve better outcomes. There is a major philosophical debate to be had about whether the most important thing is the common thread or the desire for the best possible outcome.
Is the UK a nation state? That is a big, big question. It is a state, undoubtedly - but there is a strong argument that it is a collection of nations bonded by common ties who have agreed that working together produces the best outcomes. The same could be said of Spain, Italy, even France, perhaps Germany. One of those common ties uniting the peoples of the different nations of the UK - a consensus about being an EU member state - has been severed and many are asking whether being a part of the UK is now the way to produce the best possible outcomes.
All of which is a long winded way of saying that Mr Yates seems to be an outcomes man. He believes that what matters most to people is quality of life and standard of living, not the nature of the state in which they live. I don't agree with him, but I do believe that Brexiteers - especially well off ones - have not given enough thought to standard of living and quality of life issues, and that this will end up causing further alienation among a lot of British voters, many of whom chose Leave because they felt left behind and ignored, and believed Brexit would make life better for them and their families.
Born to be kings
We're the Princes of the EU-niverse
Here we belong
Fighting to survive
In a world with the darkest power!
Yes, I think a lot of the economic arguments were very outcomes-centred - and only a particular class of outcomes, which means an economist's "best possible outcome" need not be particularly closely aligned with what the chap on the Clapham omnibus thinks is "best".
I do think the focus on outcomes rather than stories is one reason the economic arguments failed to resonate much (on either side - there were a few Economists for Brexit, but very few Brexiteers voted this way because they were driven by economic considerations).
Similarly, if Scotland leaves the UK, I doubt it will be because the bulk of the Scottish electorate feel the road to Brussels is paved in gold, but more likely because they have bought in to a particular story about their country and their own identity.
Re "Brexiteers - especially well off ones - have not given enough thought to standard of living and quality of life issues, and that this will end up causing further alienation among a lot of British voters, many of whom chose Leave because they felt left behind and ignored, and believed Brexit would make life better for them and their families" ... there's truth in there, and it will be interesting to see how big a play for these groups (if at all) the Conservatives bother making. But specifically re "a lot of British voters" - a lot of these folks' problem is that they are actually non-voters, which puts you lower on a politician's list of people to please, or even remember at all. Also, and something far less culpable, they generally have the misfortune of living in fairly socioeconomically homogeneous areas in a country with FPTP elections.
But to reiterate my earlier point - if these people felt left behind and ignored by the political establishment, it's interesting (and turned out to be vital) that they didn't see Brussels as their City On A Hill, the blue-with-yellow-stars as their flag, for their people, the Eurocrats as their potential saviours - the ones who will actually remember and care and stick up for them when the crooks of Westminster repeatedly let them down. In some alternative history, the European Movement could have been a mass movement of the continent's working class. (Not entirely irrational or implausible - if you think that globalisation and multinationals means that mere middling-sized nation states are impotent to protect the rights of the little guy, you've got to Go Large). Instead, there was little love or loyalty of the masses for The Project. On the one hand, it was cunning and superficial for a certain shade of right-wing Brexiteer to exploit these people's votes to shape a future even more inimical to them. On t'other - how could those heart-set on building the European dream, and controlling powerful institutions and levers of financial largesse, have failed so spectacularly to manufacture even a soupçon of working-class consent?
Anyway, it turns out that the family of one of the women who works in our Hong Kong office is from Shenzhen on her father's side and has lived there for generations. They have watched the sleepy hamlets that largely got by on fishing and rice farming turn into China's richest, most dynamic city. Can you imagine the total culture shock? It's like Yeovil turning into London in the space of one generation. I asked her about it and in a very Chinese way she said it was absolutely no problem at all: her Shenzhen family is very rich and do not have to work. It turns out that one of the first capitalist things allowed in the SER was the ownership of land, so most of the villagers got loans to build and are now charging huge rents for the tower blocks they put up.
That's the thing about China - people are so much better off than they were and that means they never look back with nostalgia. Whether that continues now that such progress has been made, though, remains to be seen. Once a population has economic and lifestyle expectations it gets much harder to manage. See Brexit and Donald Trump.
it's one thing being in on the ground as something lifts off but I suspect the 11 million immigrants who subsequently arrived dont have it so easy.
The Londoners can sell their council house and buy Aberystwyth, The immigrants to London live a marginal life due to high costs.
The difference between Shenzen and London is China has no social safety net. I find your admiration for their system a bit surprising.
I am not sure that me reporting on what has been achieved in Shenzhen over the last four decades equates to admiration for the Chinese system. It is, though, a matter of fact that the Chinese people as a whole have enjoyed a huge leap forward in living standards since the 1970s. Whether we like it or not, that has changed the country beyond recognition. My point is precisely that now those changes have happened, not having a fully functioning welfare system is going to become an issue in a way that it was not when people were all dirt poor and had lower expectations from life.
Shenzen has only become rich by taking a path to industrialisation akin to Victorian Britain.
It ditched socialism.
What happens next is anyones guess, my own view is they'll imitate Singapore rather than Europe.
This is why we're leaving.
http://www.todayonline.com/business/social-spending-set-increase-furtheras-population-ages
http://www.ifhp.org/ifhp-blog/popular-public-housing-singapore
After 42 years, the great deception has run its course and been rejected by the people. I hope you all enjoyed it while it lasted.
The UK is a very rich country inside the EU. It will continue to be a very rich country outside the EU. Yes, leaving an economic union will raise non-tariff barriers to trading within it, but I think the impact of this is exaggerated.
Our new global political alliances and trading agreements are yet to be formed, and it is very easy to count costs and discount any opportunities to reach a skewed conclusion.
Shame.
That said, I am not sure what any of that has to do with Shenzhen :-)
I remain cautiously optimistic for Britain and for the EU.
I think our departure will simplify their path to what the elite in the EU seem to want. This is a closely integrated state in which pretty much all the big decisions are made by committee and bureaucrats who know best with countries reduced to local government. They will still need to sell that to their populace of course but that has never troubled them greatly. It looks old fashioned to me but who knows, it may prove very modern indeed as the problems we face become increasingly too complicated for democracy to be meaningful or reliable.
A nice start to an otherwise very dark day
This is no time for rejoicing.
Sensible Brexit is inevitable.