I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
I think that's a very good post particularly your last line. I've never felt as alienated from my government or my fellow countrymen as I do now or know as many people who currently feel as I do.
There is an emerging generation of very angry people which bodes well for no-one
You could, alternatively, take a much more positive stance, and say: "my country (right or wrong) has voted to Leave the EU, and forge a new, independent path.
"I don't like it, but this is the democratic choice of my fellow Britons. And there are, undeniably, new opportunities to be seized, even if I believe the dangers do not justify the risks. We can remain very good friends, neighbours and allies of our European cousins, even as we do things a little differently. Let's see - let's have a go."
Try it. You might like it. Look at someone like Nabavi who seems, very sensibly, to be adopting this stance.
Besides, it's the best you're gonna get. Your side lost. There it is. My side lost for the last 40 years, and I had to live with it for decades, and make the best of it. Which I did - while remaining a British patriot.
The last paragraph of your response highlights exactly the point being made by the original poster, eg he now has no stake in the political process because he was on the losing side in the referendum debate.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
Yes we're all quite aware the state of public opinion on 23rd June last year. It won't be the same now and the result of opinion on one day last year does not bind UK policy for ever more.
Nope, but it does bind it for the foreseeable future. At least long enough to get us out of the EU. After which the chances of us ever going back in become extremely small.
I think that's a very good post particularly your last line. I've never felt as alienated from my government or my fellow countrymen as I do now or know as many people who currently feel as I do.
There is an emerging generation of very angry people which bodes well for no-one
Thanks, yes, alienated is very much how I feel... That may pass or it may not. I don't know but it's certainly how I feel now.
As others have said before me, you now know what it feels like to be a decent, sensible, eurosceptic, immigration-sceptic white working class British voter for the last 50 fucking years. The feeling that no one represents you, that everything you treasure is being casually trashed, that you are politically powerless as the world changes around you.
Suck it up. Enjoy the sensation. It's time you guys learned what it feels like to LOSE.
The proof that what you say is true is illustrated by the 2015 General Election. The Coalition Government and the Opposition were three parties offering almost exactly the same manifesto. Their leaders were all centrist, liberal elite types, not one ounce of the common touch between them, all pro EU and pro mass immigration. Remember that they tried to block UKIP from getting any airtime or appearing in the debates?
Then we have the Leave vote.. lo and behold the three protagonists are all singing from the hymnsheet, Blair the Master joins them with Major and Paddy Pantsdown to try and slow down/reverse/ignore the vote. A new party is mooted with the same old faces at least now no longer pretending to disagree. For years the normal bloke on the street was offered a choice of three identical parties, so it didn't matter.. then they made the fatal error of offering a real choice... KABOOM!!!!
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
I think that's a very good post particularly your last line. I've never felt as alienated from my government or my fellow countrymen as I do now or know as many people who currently feel as I do.
There is an emerging generation of very angry people which bodes well for no-one
You could, alternatively, take a much more positive stance, and say: "my country (right or wrong) has voted to Leave the EU, and forge a new, independent path.
"I don't like it, but this is the democratic choice of my fellow Britons. And there are, undeniably, new opportunities to be seized, even if I believe the dangers do not justify the risks. We can remain very good friends, neighbours and allies of our European cousins, even as we do things a little differently. Let's see - let's have a go."
Try it. You might like it. Look at someone like Nabavi who seems, very sensibly, to be adopting this stance.
Besides, it's the best you're gonna get. Your side lost. There it is. My side lost for the last 40 years, and I had to live with it for decades, and make the best of it. Which I did - while remaining a British patriot.
The last paragraph of your response highlights exactly the point being made by the original poster, eg he now has no stake in the political process because he was on the losing side in the referendum debate.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
Yes we're all quite aware the state of public opinion on 23rd June last year. It won't be the same now and the result of opinion on one day last year does not bind UK policy for ever more.
It does not bind UK policy for ever more (and nor should it) but judging by British history it will guide and steer our politics for two generations.
I doubt I will see another EU referendum in my lifetime. Though I am 53 and a functioning alcoholic, so you may get lucky and see one within 15-20 years
The leavers act as if it does. We are in the process of leaving. To what? Even May and Davis haven't a clue. When we do know public opinion will not be the same as it is today.
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
I think that's a very good post particularly your last line. I've never felt as alienated from my government or my fellow countrymen as I do now or know as many people who currently feel as I do.
There is an emerging generation of very angry people which bodes well for no-one
You could, alternatively, take a much more positive stance, and say: "my country (right or wrong) has voted to Leave the EU, and forge a new, independent path.
"I don't like it, but this is the democratic choice of my fellow Britons. And there are, undeniably, new opportunities to be seized, even if I believe the dangers do not justify the risks. We can remain very good friends, neighbours and allies of our European cousins, even as we do things a little differently. Let's see - let's have a go."
Try it. You might like it. Look at someone like Nabavi who seems, very sensibly, to be adopting this stance.
Besides, it's the best you're gonna get. Your side lost. There it is. My side lost for the last 40 years, and I had to live with it for decades, and make the best of it. Which I did - while remaining a British patriot.
The last paragraph of your response highlights exactly the point being made by the original poster, eg he now has no stake in the political process because he was on the losing side in the referendum debate.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
Yes we're all quite aware the state of public opinion on 23rd June last year. It won't be the same now and the result of opinion on one day last year does not bind UK policy for ever more.
I guess you prefer the state of public opinion way back in 1975?
You obviously think that when the public see the glorious sunny uplands which May and Davis manage to negotiate that they will be clamouring to show how much they support it, so what are you afraid of?
Then we have the Leave vote.. lo and behold the three protagonists are all singing from the hymnsheet, Blair the Master joins them with Major and Paddy Pantsdown to try and slow down/reverse/ignore the vote. For years the normal bloke on the street was offered a choice of three identical parties, so it didn't matter.. then they made the fatal error of offering a real choice... KABOOM!!!!
Exactly it was a once in a lifetime chance to kick the political class in the balls.
SeanT As others have said before me, you now know what it feels like to be a decent, sensible, eurosceptic, immigration-sceptic white working class British voter for the last 50 fucking years. The feeling that no one represents you, that everything you treasure is being casually trashed, that you are politically powerless as the world changes around you.
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
I think that's a very good post particularly your last line. I've never felt as alienated from my government or my fellow countrymen as I do now or know as many people who currently feel as I do.
There is an emerging generation of very angry people which bodes well for no-one
There are a few noisy's in the liberal establishment that are angry. Everyone else is getting on with life.
I suspect every time you visit a professional person- doctor surgeon lawyer accountant dentist advertiser restaurateur etc you will find yourself among this 'liberal establishment' and whether or not they are getting on with their lives they are mighty pissed off.
I suspect the type of people you associate with are very far from typical of the average professional person.
Plenty of professional people voted Leave. They were outnumbered by those who voted Remain, but were still numerous.
Then we have the Leave vote.. lo and behold the three protagonists are all singing from the hymnsheet, Blair the Master joins them with Major and Paddy Pantsdown to try and slow down/reverse/ignore the vote. For years the normal bloke on the street was offered a choice of three identical parties, so it didn't matter.. then they made the fatal error of offering a real choice... KABOOM!!!!
Exactly it was a once in a lifetime chance to kick the political class in the balls.
The reason so many middle class lefties are crying into their quinoa about this is that it finally gives them the chance to be a victim/one of the oppressed (well it doesn't but its as close as they'll get)
For years they have wanted to shed their white privilege and feel like the immigrants and minorities with real problems that they patronise to make themselves feel good. This is their big chance and theyre gonna let everyone hear about it.
And if it gets too much they can phone their Dad and he can stop it all, yeah
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
I think that's a very good post particularly your last line. I've never felt as alienated from my government or my fellow countrymen as I do now or know as many people who currently feel as I do.
There is an emerging generation of very angry people which bodes well for no-one
There are a few noisy's in the liberal establishment that are angry. Everyone else is getting on with life.
I suspect every time you visit a professional person- doctor surgeon lawyer accountant dentist advertiser restaurateur etc you will find yourself among this 'liberal establishment' and whether or not they are getting on with their lives they are mighty pissed off.
Do you remember back before the 2010 general election you predicted a Labour victory based on your focus group of friends ?
You're making the same mistake again.
But we do get a test of public opinion in five weeks - are you expecting all the doctor surgeon lawyer accountant dentist advertiser restaurateur etc to vote en mass for the LibDems ?
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
I think that's a very good post particularly your last line. I've never felt as alienated from my government or my fellow countrymen as I do now or know as many people who currently feel as I do.
There is an emerging generation of very angry people which bodes well for no-one
You could, alternatively, take a much more positive stance, and say: "my country (right or wrong) has voted to Leave the EU, and forge a new, independent path.
"I don't like it, but this is the democratic choice of my fellow Britons. And there are, undeniably, new opportunities to be seized, even if I believe the dangers do not justify the risks. We can remain very good friends, neighbours and allies of our European cousins, even as we do things a little differently. Let's see - let's have a go."
Try it. You might like it. Look at someone like Nabavi who seems, very sensibly, to be adopting this stance.
Besides, it's the best you're gonna get. Your side lost. There it is. My side lost for the last 40 years, and I had to live with it for decades, and make the best of it. Which I did - while remaining a British patriot.
The last paragraph of your response highlights exactly the point being made by the original poster, eg he now has no stake in the political process because he was on the losing side in the referendum debate.
LEAVE 52% REMAIN 48%
Yes we're all quite aware the state of public opinion on 23rd June last year. It won't be the same now and the result of opinion on one day last year does not bind UK policy for ever more.
It does not bind UK policy for ever more (and nor should it) but judging by British history it will guide and steer our politics for two generations.
I doubt I will see another EU referendum in my lifetime. Though I am 53 and a functioning alcoholic, so you may get lucky and see one within 15-20 years
Didn't you abstain from alcohol for a while when you were losing weight a year or two ago ?
If so then surely you a functioning heavy drinker rather than a functioning alcoholic.
The leavers act as if it does. We are in the process of leaving. To what? Even May and Davis haven't a clue. When we do know public opinion will not be the same as it is today.
To be fair, the leavers called the immediate aftermath of the vote correctly, whereas Remainers called almost every thing incorrectly.
Those with longer term reservations about the euro and the success of open door migration were more right than wrong as well.
There is human nature and then there is idealism. The idealists usually seem to get things wrong.They become engrossed in their dreams.
Most Brexiteers expected some economic discomfort (yet to materialise) and factored it into their vote.
Around 40% of Remainers are Leave sympathisers who bought project fear. I wonder how many know they were fooled but aren't going to openly admit it?
Then we have the Leave vote.. lo and behold the three protagonists are all singing from the hymnsheet, Blair the Master joins them with Major and Paddy Pantsdown to try and slow down/reverse/ignore the vote. For years the normal bloke on the street was offered a choice of three identical parties, so it didn't matter.. then they made the fatal error of offering a real choice... KABOOM!!!!
Exactly it was a once in a lifetime chance to kick the political class in the balls.
The reason so many middle class lefties are crying into their quinoa about this is that it finally gives them the chance to be a victim/one of the oppressed (well it doesn't but its as close as they'll get)
For years they have wanted to shed their white privilege and feel like the immigrants and minorities with real problems that they patronise to make themselves feel good. This is their big chance and theyre gonna let everyone hear about it.
And if it gets too much they can phone their Dad and he can stop it all, yeah
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
Augustus, quite. I know that we're going to be worse off, but I live comfortably and can afford the hard times to come. I feel for those who cannot and who were duped. They are going to feel the betrayal quite hard indeed and no about of saying "I told you so" is going to make the situation any better.
The reason so many middle class lefties are crying into their quinoa about this is that it finally gives them the chance to be a victim/one of the oppressed (well it doesn't but its as close as they'll get)
Maybe the reason so many people (lefties or otherwise) are "... crying into their quinoa about this ... " is because they are utterly certain that we are charging into a major screw-up whilst the govt and the Leavers are all shouting loudly with their fingers stuck in their ears?
Just because the UK inflicted the mess on itself will not make it any more bearable when it happens.
I think that's a very good post particularly your last line. I've never felt as alienated from my government or my fellow countrymen as I do now or know as many people who currently feel as I do.
There is an emerging generation of very angry people which bodes well for no-one
Thanks, yes, alienated is very much how I feel... That may pass or it may not. I don't know but it's certainly how I feel now.
As others have said before me, you now know what it feels like to be a decent, sensible, eurosceptic, immigration-sceptic white working class British voter for the last 50 fucking years. The feeling that no one represents you, that everything you treasure is being casually trashed, that you are politically powerless as the world changes around you.
Suck it up. Enjoy the sensation. It's time you guys learned what it feels like to LOSE.
From the point of view of the average white working class person (whatever that is) all that has happened is that one elite has simply been replaced by another elite. Same social class, same schools/universities, same socio economic groupings. Nothing has really changed. For the most part people are as alienated and confused by politics as they were previously.
is because they are utterly certain that we are charging into a major screw-up whilst the govt and the Leavers are all shouting loudly with their fingers stuck in their ears?
If your utter certainty keeps being proved wrong then maybe it's not well founded and your opponents have a point.
The reason so many middle class lefties are crying into their quinoa about this is that it finally gives them the chance to be a victim/one of the oppressed (well it doesn't but its as close as they'll get)
Maybe the reason so many people (lefties or otherwise) are "... crying into their quinoa about this ... " is because they are utterly certain that we are charging into a major screw-up whilst the govt and the Leavers are all shouting loudly with their fingers stuck in their ears?
Just because the UK inflicted the mess on itself will not make it any more bearable when it happens.
The fact that they are utterly certain they are right despite most of the country voting otherwise is one of the main reasons people are completely fed up of their snooty attitude
It appears Twitter is very angry at the bbc for not making Today's small protest march the lead story. Perhaps if they had got more of an attendance than a championship football match they would have done. I personally think the bbc are trying to do them a favour by not fully highlighting how poorly it was attended.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
Augustus, quite. I know that we're going to be worse off, but I live comfortably and can afford the hard times to come. I feel for those who cannot and who were duped. They are going to feel the betrayal quite hard indeed and no about of saying "I told you so" is going to make the situation any better.
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
As others have said before me, you now know what it feels like to be a decent, sensible, eurosceptic, immigration-sceptic white working class British voter for the last 50 fucking years. The feeling that no one represents you, that everything you treasure is being casually trashed, that you are politically powerless as the world changes around you.
Suck it up. Enjoy the sensation. It's time you guys learned what it feels like to LOSE.
I've always known what it's like to be a white working class British voter as I've always been one. I also believe I'm decent. It's obviously not my call to pass judgement on whether or not I'm sensible. Clearly you don't think I am - but I have no problem with that.
Then we have the Leave vote.. lo and behold the three protagonists are all singing from the hymnsheet, Blair the Master joins them with Major and Paddy Pantsdown to try and slow down/reverse/ignore the vote. For years the normal bloke on the street was offered a choice of three identical parties, so it didn't matter.. then they made the fatal error of offering a real choice... KABOOM!!!!
Exactly it was a once in a lifetime chance to kick the political class in the balls.
It was a once in a lifetime chance to kick the political classourselves in the balls.
The political class are doing just fine out of brexit.
The bottom line is that the UK is leaving the EU, never to return in all probability. Win for Leave.
However life will be dreary because we're still there (assuming the UK manages to stick together) and the EU is still there, still the only show in town in Europe, and we still want things from it. We will variously try to co-opt, undermine and ignore an EU that we no longer have any influence over, which doesn't owe us anything and generally is uninterested in us. We will fail in all three manoeuvres. We can't even shake off the EU in our dealings with third countries because they will define their relationships with us relative to their much more important relationships with the EU. The motivation for leaving the UK was to reclaim sovereignty, yet paradoxically the EU will dominate our politics and diplomacy much more after we leave than when we were members.
The reason so many middle class lefties are crying into their quinoa about this is that it finally gives them the chance to be a victim/one of the oppressed (well it doesn't but its as close as they'll get)
Maybe the reason so many people (lefties or otherwise) are "... crying into their quinoa about this ... " is because they are utterly certain that we are charging into a major screw-up whilst the govt and the Leavers are all shouting loudly with their fingers stuck in their ears?
Just because the UK inflicted the mess on itself will not make it any more bearable when it happens.
Remainers were certain of all kinds of things before June.
The fact they were wrong on almost everything is why it hurts so much now.
The reason so many middle class lefties are crying into their quinoa about this is that it finally gives them the chance to be a victim/one of the oppressed (well it doesn't but its as close as they'll get)
Maybe the reason so many people (lefties or otherwise) are "... crying into their quinoa about this ... " is because they are utterly certain that we are charging into a major screw-up whilst the govt and the Leavers are all shouting loudly with their fingers stuck in their ears?
Just because the UK inflicted the mess on itself will not make it any more bearable when it happens.
The fact that they are utterly certain they are right despite most of the country voting otherwise is one of the main reasons people are completely fed up of their snooty attitude
The reason so many middle class lefties are crying into their quinoa about this is that it finally gives them the chance to be a victim/one of the oppressed (well it doesn't but its as close as they'll get)
Maybe the reason so many people (lefties or otherwise) are "... crying into their quinoa about this ... " is because they are utterly certain that we are charging into a major screw-up whilst the govt and the Leavers are all shouting loudly with their fingers stuck in their ears?
Just because the UK inflicted the mess on itself will not make it any more bearable when it happens.
Remainers were certain of all kinds of things before June.
The fact they were wrong on almost everything is why it hurts so much now.
I am not hurting. Like Mr Carp, I will be alright either way.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
The people who will be most affected by Brexit are the people on low incomes who disproportionately voted for it. I am not on a high salary, but could adapt to food and petrol prices doubling whilst my wage stays the same, but for many people this scenario would be catastrophic. This is not over by any means.
The fact that they are utterly certain they are right despite most of the country voting otherwise is one of the main reasons people are completely fed up of their snooty attitude
The vote was to decide what happens. It wasn't to decide who is right or wrong or to magically wash away the genuine legitimate concerns of whichever side lost. I could take comments like yours more seriously if I thought you'd have shut up forever about the issue if your side had lost. Would you have done?
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
Augustus, quite. I know that we're going to be worse off, but I live comfortably and can afford the hard times to come. I feel for those who cannot and who were duped. They are going to feel the betrayal quite hard indeed and no about of saying "I told you so" is going to make the situation any better.
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
I feel for them now - as they slowly realise that whatever it was they thought they were voting for in June, mass immigration - or perhaps more specifically, the consequences of it - is not going to go away.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
The people who will be most affected by Brexit are the people on low incomes who disproportionately voted for it. I am not on a high salary, but could adapt to food and petrol prices doubling whilst my wage stays the same, but for many people this scenario would be catastrophic. This is not over by any means.
Petrol prices are going to double? Even the apocalyptic Treasury forecast didn't predict that.
Then we have the Leave vote.. lo and behold the three protagonists are all singing from the hymnsheet, Blair the Master joins them with Major and Paddy Pantsdown to try and slow down/reverse/ignore the vote. For years the normal bloke on the street was offered a choice of three identical parties, so it didn't matter.. then they made the fatal error of offering a real choice... KABOOM!!!!
Exactly it was a once in a lifetime chance to kick the political class in the balls.
Not quite, it was a chance for the country to express their genuine opinion of the EU.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
Augustus, quite. I know that we're going to be worse off, but I live comfortably and can afford the hard times to come. I feel for those who cannot and who were duped. They are going to feel the betrayal quite hard indeed and no about of saying "I told you so" is going to make the situation any better.
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
I feel for them now - as they slowly realise that whatever it was they thought they were voting for in June, mass immigration - or perhaps more specifically, the consequences of it - is not going to go away.
So you didn't feel for them when they were being shat upon for years.
Nor would you have felt for them if Remain had won and they had continued to be shat upon.
The fact that they are utterly certain they are right despite most of the country voting otherwise is one of the main reasons people are completely fed up of their snooty attitude
The vote was to decide what happens. It wasn't to decide who is right or wrong or to magically wash away the genuine legitimate concerns of whichever side lost. I could take comments like yours more seriously if I thought you'd have shut up forever about the issue if your side had lost. Would you have done?
If my side had lost we wouldn't have had the ability to delay, revise or prevent the winning side implementing their victory so the comparison is not valid.
No doubt Ukip would have continued to campaign to win seats and influence the government, no one is saying people who lost can't do that now
People were offered the chance to take a supposedly massive risk or stay with mother and they were pissed off enough to take the risk. I'd say a lot of the vote was inspired by the feeling that politicians had ignored them for too long... so what do the losers do? Try to ignore them again #genius
Is that Sunday Times headline the most ridiculous ever?
Even if one puts any credence on Cameron's previous renegotiation it was only ever going to apply to future EU migrants.
That is exactly what the Government is proposing, according to this story: no impact on existing migrants and controls on new.
Except in this case the controls on new migrants are potentially much more significant than Cameron's temporary and small reduction in benefit entitlement.
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
Welcome to posting on the site - always good to see a thoughtful new contributor.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
The people who will be most affected by Brexit are the people on low incomes who disproportionately voted for it. I am not on a high salary, but could adapt to food and petrol prices doubling whilst my wage stays the same, but for many people this scenario would be catastrophic. This is not over by any means.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
The people who will be most affected by Brexit are the people on low incomes who disproportionately voted for it. I am not on a high salary, but could adapt to food and petrol prices doubling whilst my wage stays the same, but for many people this scenario would be catastrophic. This is not over by any means.
Petrol prices are going to double? Even the apocalyptic Treasury forecast didn't predict that.
I was making the point that people on low incomes are the most affected by inflation, and they were most likely to vote for Brexit.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
Augustus, quite. I know that we're going to be worse off, but I live comfortably and can afford the hard times to come. I feel for those who cannot and who were duped. They are going to feel the betrayal quite hard indeed and no about of saying "I told you so" is going to make the situation any better.
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
I feel for them now - as they slowly realise that whatever it was they thought they were voting for in June, mass immigration - or perhaps more specifically, the consequences of it - is not going to go away.
So you didn't feel for them when they were being shat upon for years.
Nor would you have felt for them if Remain had won and they had continued to be shat upon.
And what, as they say in the Law Courts, is your authority for that statement?
@AndyJS - if you're able to make it to Truckles on Wednesday evening I know many of us would like to keep you in pints/cups in recognition of the spreadsheet!
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
The people who will be most affected by Brexit are the people on low incomes who disproportionately voted for it. I am not on a high salary, but could adapt to food and petrol prices doubling whilst my wage stays the same, but for many people this scenario would be catastrophic. This is not over by any means.
Petrol prices are going to double? Even the apocalyptic Treasury forecast didn't predict that.
I was making the point that people on low incomes are the most affected by inflation, and they were most likely to vote for Brexit.
You are predicting inflation is going to greatly exceed wage growth?
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
The people who will be most affected by Brexit are the people on low incomes who disproportionately voted for it. I am not on a high salary, but could adapt to food and petrol prices doubling whilst my wage stays the same, but for many people this scenario would be catastrophic. This is not over by any means.
Yet when for years the wages of the poor were depressed and their costs increased were you bothered at all.
Or do you really mean that you WANT the people on low incomes who voted Leave to suffer.
@AndyJS - if you're able to make it to Truckles on Wednesday evening I know many of us would like to keep you in pints/cups in recognition of the spreadsheet!
Thanks for the invitation. I'm compiling a spreadsheet for this year's local elections at the moment: it's a Labour defence list. Might do a LD target list as well if I have time.
Macron 62%, Le Pen 38%; Fillon 56.5%, Le Pen 43.5%.
So (assume Le Pen gets into R2, wave hands) 1 in 11 of those who say they'd vote for Macron against Le Pen also say they'll vote for Le Pen if her opponent is Fillon. Such people are hardly committed to "centrism".
In 1960 Nixon was ahead of Kennedy in the polls too until the first one-on-one TV debate. Sure, Macron could in principle cry off, but he'd be taking a much bigger risk than Chirac did in 2002 when Le Pen père was far less popular than his daughter Marine is now.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
Augustus, quite. I know that we're going to be worse off, but I live comfortably and can afford the hard times to come. I feel for those who cannot and who were duped. They are going to feel the betrayal quite hard indeed and no about of saying "I told you so" is going to make the situation any better.
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
I feel for them now - as they slowly realise that whatever it was they thought they were voting for in June, mass immigration - or perhaps more specifically, the consequences of it - is not going to go away.
So you didn't feel for them when they were being shat upon for years.
Nor would you have felt for them if Remain had won and they had continued to be shat upon.
And what, as they say in the Law Courts, is your authority for that statement?
Perhaps you should answer the question I posed then:
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
No-one does. Least of all those behind the Leave campaign. It's a rudderless ship right now. Although I voted Remain, I think like you the democratic result needs to be respected. I also believe that we need to make the best of any situation we are in. But it's hard to find that motivation when those taking us into that situation are in complete denial, have no commitment to finding a solution themselves and will blame you for any bad consequences.
As I posted here the day after the EU Ref result, I was a remain voter and I am absolutely gutted at the result, but that is democracy.
Having voted No in the 2014 Indy Ref and remain in the EU Ref last year. I now just want both Referendum results to be respected, and for us all to pull together now to get the best Brexit deal for the whole UK.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
Augustus, quite. I know that we're going to be worse off, but I live comfortably and can afford the hard times to come. I feel for those who cannot and who were duped. They are going to feel the betrayal quite hard indeed and no about of saying "I told you so" is going to make the situation any better.
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
I feel for them now - as they slowly realise that whatever it was they thought they were voting for in June, mass immigration - or perhaps more specifically, the consequences of it - is not going to go away.
So you didn't feel for them when they were being shat upon for years.
Nor would you have felt for them if Remain had won and they had continued to be shat upon.
And what, as they say in the Law Courts, is your authority for that statement?
Perhaps you should answer the question I posed then:
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
OK, I think I take issue with the word "lied", but I have for many years been concerned about immigration and some of its more unexpected consequences - including ghetto-isation and lack of integration. Did I "feel" for the people affected? Yes, I think so - but feelings are cheap, action is much more difficult.
As I posted here the day after the EU Ref result, I was a remain voter and I am absolutely gutted at the result, but that is democracy.
Having voted No in the 2014 Indy Ref and remain in the EU Ref last year. I now just want both Referendum results to be respected, and for us all to pull together now to get the best Brexit deal for the whole UK.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
The people who will be most affected by Brexit are the people on low incomes who disproportionately voted for it. I am not on a high salary, but could adapt to food and petrol prices doubling whilst my wage stays the same, but for many people this scenario would be catastrophic. This is not over by any means.
Food and petrol price inflation at 100%?
That's a seriously stupid observation.
Thats not an economic prediction, but in any case I would not be surprised. In the case of food prices obvious causes would be a weak pound coupled with tariffs being introduced due to defaulting to WTO rules.
Petrol, energy have increased in price since the Brexit vote due mainly to the weak pound.
In some areas (ie housing rent - both inside and outside London) I've seen 100% inflation over a few years.
All of these changes hit the poorest hardest, who have the least disposable income.
As I posted here the day after the EU Ref result, I was a remain voter and I am absolutely gutted at the result, but that is democracy.
Having voted No in the 2014 Indy Ref and remain in the EU Ref last year. I now just want both Referendum results to be respected, and for us all to pull together now to get the best Brexit deal for the whole UK.
Ditto, well said Christine.
Why are those of us who predict that times will be worse now we're leaving the EU not respecting the result, or pulling together? Are we enemies of the people perhaps?
Macron 62%, Le Pen 38%; Fillon 56.5%, Le Pen 43.5%.
So (assume Le Pen gets into R2, wave hands) 1 in 11 of those who say they'd vote for Macron against Le Pen also say they'll vote for Le Pen if her opponent is Fillon. Such people are hardly committed to "centrism".
In 1960 Nixon was ahead of Kennedy in the polls too until the first one-on-one TV debate. Sure, Macron could in principle cry off, but he'd be taking a much bigger risk than Chirac did in 2002 when Le Pen père was far less popular than his daughter Marine is now.
Getting a bit desperate if you are dredging up an example from 57 years ago, but if you are going to compare the two, Nixon led by about 6% leading up to the debates, Macron leads by 24%.
OK, I think I take issue with the word "lied", but I have for many years been concerned about immigration and some of its more unexpected consequences - including ghetto-isation and lack of integration. Did I "feel" for the people affected? Yes, I think so - but feelings are cheap, action is much more difficult.
Christ, don't let @Isam hear you describe those as "unexpected consequences"!
As I posted here the day after the EU Ref result, I was a remain voter and I am absolutely gutted at the result, but that is democracy.
Having voted No in the 2014 Indy Ref and remain in the EU Ref last year. I now just want both Referendum results to be respected, and for us all to pull together now to get the best Brexit deal for the whole UK.
Ditto, well said Christine.
Why are those of us who predict that times will be worse now we're leaving the EU not respecting the result, or pulling together? Are we enemies of the people perhaps?
Perhaps we cannot really believe that we have seen the turkeys voting for Xmas, because that is what it feels like to me.
People were offered the chance to take a supposedly massive risk or stay with mother and they were pissed off enough to take the risk. I'd say a lot of the vote was inspired by the feeling that politicians had ignored them for too long... so what do the losers do? Try to ignore them again #genius
Well yes... the politicians now face a stark (but clear) choice. Ignore 48% of the population or ignore 52% of the population. Naturally most of them will choose to ignore the 48%.
But the real problem here is that there seems to be no common ground between the 52 and the 48 - our (self-perceived) needs and, certainly, desires are mutually exclusive. I don't see any way forward that results in a nation at ease with itself.
I was (and remain) a fervent Remainer, but so what? I didn't bother going on the march today, and I don't know anyone who did. I think the country has made a catastrophic mistake, but the sad fact is, *it won't affect me or people like me in any way except at the margins*. I am white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, middle class, English as a first language, home owner and (until recently) a higher rate tax payer. The world is designed to work for people like me. As long as I pay my taxes and STFU, then I am alright Jack! I pity the poor sods who are not as fortunate as me, I really do - but I tried for 35 years to change the System so that it would work better for other people, and was mocked and derided for my pains. The political system in this country is so completely screwed that all it is good for is betting on its randomness, and other forms of light entertainment.
The people who will be most affected by Brexit are the people on low incomes who disproportionately voted for it. I am not on a high salary, but could adapt to food and petrol prices doubling whilst my wage stays the same, but for many people this scenario would be catastrophic. This is not over by any means.
Food and petrol price inflation at 100%?
That's a seriously stupid observation.
Thats not an economic prediction, but in any case I would not be surprised. In the case of food prices obvious causes would be a weak pound coupled with tariffs being introduced due to defaulting to WTO rules.
Petrol, energy have increased in price since the Brexit vote due mainly to the weak pound.
In some areas (ie housing rent - both inside and outside London) I've seen 100% inflation over a few years.
All of these changes hit the poorest hardest, who have the least disposable income.
Petrol prices are at the same level as 2015 and below 2014. I paid 111p today, pre brexit it was 107p, so on tank of petrol talking bugger all difference.
As for rental increases total horseshit on 100% increase...It was running at 2.8% per year in 2015.
Welcome to posting on the site - always good to see a thoughtful new contributor.
Thank you for the welcome Nick. I have been here before some while ago under a different name (I'll not say what as some of my views have changed since those days).
As I posted here the day after the EU Ref result, I was a remain voter and I am absolutely gutted at the result, but that is democracy.
Having voted No in the 2014 Indy Ref and remain in the EU Ref last year. I now just want both Referendum results to be respected, and for us all to pull together now to get the best Brexit deal for the whole UK.
Ditto, well said Christine.
Why are those of us who predict that times will be worse now we're leaving the EU not respecting the result, or pulling together? Are we enemies of the people perhaps?
Welcome to posting on the site - always good to see a thoughtful new contributor.
Thank you for the welcome Nick. I have been here before some while ago under a different name (I'll not say what as some of my views have changed since those days).
Macron 62%, Le Pen 38%; Fillon 56.5%, Le Pen 43.5%.
So (assume Le Pen gets into R2, wave hands) 1 in 11 of those who say they'd vote for Macron against Le Pen also say they'll vote for Le Pen if her opponent is Fillon. Such people are hardly committed to "centrism".
In 1960 Nixon was ahead of Kennedy in the polls too until the first one-on-one TV debate. Sure, Macron could in principle cry off, but he'd be taking a much bigger risk than Chirac did in 2002 when Le Pen père was far less popular than his daughter Marine is now.
I don't think he could - they've already debated after all, and will do so again before the 1st round - an "I won't debate a fascist" argument wouldn't hold water. He can't possibly back out of the debate without looking scared.
You make a good point about his flaky vote. Macron is probably fairly close to me politically on the spectrum, but he leaves me very cold. I couldn't help but agree with Le Pen when she said he spoke for 7 minutes and didn't say anything. I think too much has been projected onto him, he's the next Blair/Obama etc. To me, he seems lightweight. Worrying.
Augustus, quite. I know that we're going to be worse off, but I live comfortably and can afford the hard times to come. I feel for those who cannot and who were duped. They are going to feel the betrayal quite hard indeed and no about of saying "I told you so" is going to make the situation any better.
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
I feel for them now - as they slowly realise that whatever it was they thought they were voting for in June, mass immigration - or perhaps more specifically, the consequences of it - is not going to go away.
So you didn't feel for them when they were being shat upon for years.
Nor would you have felt for them if Remain had won and they had continued to be shat upon.
And what, as they say in the Law Courts, is your authority for that statement?
Perhaps you should answer the question I posed then:
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
OK, I think I take issue with the word "lied", but I have for many years been concerned about immigration and some of its more unexpected consequences - including ghetto-isation and lack of integration. Did I "feel" for the people affected? Yes, I think so - but feelings are cheap, action is much more difficult.
Thanks for the reply and I see I was brusque before - I didn't notice that a different person (you) had replied to the one I had asked the question to (Chris_A) so apologies for any upset.
I can't see how we can describe Cameron's 'no ifs, no buts' immigration pledge and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers' posturing as anything but lies. The Blair governments claim that there would be a maximum of 13,000 economic migrants per year from Eastern Europe might perhaps have been utter incompetence rather than a lie but I'm not willing to give Blair the benefit of the doubt regarding honesty.
As to action regarding immigration and its effects the one chance to do something was in voting Leave. What the consequences will be we don't know yet but no change meant continued uncontrolled and unprepared for immigration. The negative consequences of which being felt most by the less affluent members of society.
OK, I think I take issue with the word "lied", but I have for many years been concerned about immigration and some of its more unexpected consequences - including ghetto-isation and lack of integration. Did I "feel" for the people affected? Yes, I think so - but feelings are cheap, action is much more difficult.
Christ, don't let @Isam hear you describe those as "unexpected consequences"!
People were offered the chance to take a supposedly massive risk or stay with mother and they were pissed off enough to take the risk. I'd say a lot of the vote was inspired by the feeling that politicians had ignored them for too long... so what do the losers do? Try to ignore them again #genius
Well yes... the politicians now face a stark (but clear) choice. Ignore 48% of the population or ignore 52% of the population. Naturally most of them will choose to ignore the 48%.
But the real problem here is that there seems to be no common ground between the 52 and the 48 - our (self-perceived) needs and, certainly, desires are mutually exclusive. I don't see any way forward that results in a nation at ease with itself.
But there are numerous PBers ** who supported Remain who have accepted the result. they may have preferred Remain to have won but their needs are certainly not mutually exclusive to those of Leave supporters.
** David Herdson, Richard Nabavi, HYFUD, Carlotta, BigG, AndyJS, Pulpstar, Josias Jessop, Foxinsox would all be in this group IMO.
Now these PBers might all be on the centre or right politically and located in 'Middle England' but those, to be blunt, are the people of interest to Conservative governments.
Thanks for the reply and I see I was brusque before - I didn't notice that a different person (you) had replied to the one I had asked the question to (Chris_A) so apologies for any upset.
I can't see how we can describe Cameron's 'no ifs, no buts' immigration pledge and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers' posturing as anything but lies. The Blair governments claim that there would be a maximum of 13,000 economic migrants per year from Eastern Europe might perhaps have been utter incompetence rather than a lie but I'm not willing to give Blair the benefit of the doubt regarding honesty.
As to action regarding immigration and its effects the one chance to do something was in voting Leave. What the consequences will be we don't know yet but no change meant continued uncontrolled and unprepared for immigration. The negative consequences of which being felt most by the less affluent members of society.
Oh, don't worry about it, no offence taken.
Here's this evening's forecast from Old Carp's Almanack of Future Unhappiness: anyone who voted in the Referendum thinking that, as a consequence, something was going to be done about "Immigration" (be that past, present or future) is deluding themselves, and is going to be bitterly disappointed in a few years' time. And THAT is when the problems of a supposedly un-represented section of the electorate are going to get very nasty indeed.
Sorry, another_Richard, I seem to have messed up my reply - too much text in the embedded quotes, or something. The last one from me was directed to you. Anyway, off to bed now,
As I posted here the day after the EU Ref result, I was a remain voter and I am absolutely gutted at the result, but that is democracy.
Having voted No in the 2014 Indy Ref and remain in the EU Ref last year. I now just want both Referendum results to be respected, and for us all to pull together now to get the best Brexit deal for the whole UK.
Ditto, well said Christine.
Why are those of us who predict that times will be worse now we're leaving the EU not respecting the result, or pulling together? Are we enemies of the people perhaps?
No.
So if you were the passenger in a car heading straight for a brick wall you'd just sit there because you couldn't disrespect the driver's abilities. Wonderful.
People were offered the chance to take a supposedly massive risk or stay with mother and they were pissed off enough to take the risk. I'd say a lot of the vote was inspired by the feeling that politicians had ignored them for too long... so what do the losers do? Try to ignore them again #genius
Well yes... the politicians now face a stark (but clear) choice. Ignore 48% of the population or ignore 52% of the population. Naturally most of them will choose to ignore the 48%.
But the real problem here is that there seems to be no common ground between the 52 and the 48 - our (self-perceived) needs and, certainly, desires are mutually exclusive. I don't see any way forward that results in a nation at ease with itself.
But there are numerous PBers ** who supported Remain who have accepted the result. they may have preferred Remain to have won but their needs are certainly not mutually exclusive to those of Leave supporters.
** David Herdson, Richard Nabavi, HYFUD, Carlotta, BigG, AndyJS, Pulpstar, Josias Jessop, Foxinsox would all be in this group IMO.
Now these PBers might all be on the centre or right politically and located in 'Middle England' but those, to be blunt, are the people of interest to Conservative governments.
Yes I was a Remainer with reservations but am now committed to supporting Brexit and May's implementation of the Leave vote, including free movement controls and leaving the EEA although I could support a return to the single market in a decade or two
But there are numerous PBers ** who supported Remain who have accepted the result. they may have preferred Remain to have won but their needs are certainly not mutually exclusive to those of Leave supporters.
** David Herdson, Richard Nabavi, HYFUD, Carlotta, BigG, AndyJS, Pulpstar, Josias Jessop, Foxinsox would all be in this group IMO.
Now these PBers might all be on the centre or right politically and located in 'Middle England' but those, to be blunt, are the people of interest to Conservative governments.
You can add me to the list of PBers who supported Remain but have accepted the result - but accepting is as far along as I've made along that road so far. I know a hell of a lot of people in my circle of friends (most of them, I think) who haven't even got that far yet.
(I've voted Conservative at every General Election since I've been of voting age, by the way but almost none of my friends have ever voted Conservative so far as I know.)
Macron 62%, Le Pen 38%; Fillon 56.5%, Le Pen 43.5%.
So (assume Le Pen gets into R2, wave hands) 1 in 11 of those who say they'd vote for Macron against Le Pen also say they'll vote for Le Pen if her opponent is Fillon. Such people are hardly committed to "centrism".
In 1960 Nixon was ahead of Kennedy in the polls too until the first one-on-one TV debate. Sure, Macron could in principle cry off, but he'd be taking a much bigger risk than Chirac did in 2002 when Le Pen père was far less popular than his daughter Marine is now.
I don't think he could - they've already debated after all, and will do so again before the 1st round - an "I won't debate a fascist" argument wouldn't hold water. He can't possibly back out of the debate without looking scared.
You make a good point about his flaky vote. Macron is probably fairly close to me politically on the spectrum, but he leaves me very cold. I couldn't help but agree with Le Pen when she said he spoke for 7 minutes and didn't say anything. I think too much has been projected onto him, he's the next Blair/Obama etc. To me, he seems lightweight. Worrying.
Debates rarely shift votes much. The biggest risk is a major gaffe, but Macron plays defensively and is not about to implode. He gives the impression of being a safe pair of hands in an uncertain world, which is why he is likely to thrash LePen. FN have always been transfer unfriendly, and I cannot see that changing.
Macron is like a football team winning 3 nil with 15 minutes to go, and is parking the bus whie running down the clock. It is LePen that needs to take the risks to try to win the game. I think that was the point of sucking up to Putin this week, a desperate bid for the ex Communist vote.
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
As a Leaver, I'm with you.
Referendums are sometimes necessary, unfortunately, but on these big issues by God they are divisive. We've seen it in Scotland, and now across the UK.
Enough referendums, now. For a while. Let's go back to elections, and parliamentary democracy (unless we can somehow make the leap to Swiss style plebiscitary democracy, which will be hard).
Incidentally, I think this anti-referendums mood will prevent Scottish indy for the foreseeable. Many Scots are still minded to go indy, but even more Scots just hate the idea of another campaign that splits the country. I suspect they will haver, and never quite have that vote, for a long time.
one way to avoid referendum and elections in general is to simply adopt a totally free society, and anrco-capitalist world, where there is no government, no states, no mandatary regulations so no need to elect anybody to decide them, or taxes to pay for there enforced. Cant see it happening in my life time but I can dream!!!!
As to the Scottish referendum, I wonder what would happen If May proposed having a referendum on having a referendum, i.e. Do you think there should not be any more referendums on Scottish independence for 10 years from the last referendum on the subject?
A society with no government, laws or regulations is one where anything goes, including murder and not one I or the vast majority of people would wish to live in
Also went to see 'Beauty and the Beast' tonight which was excellent and at times even better than the animated original, am not surprised it presently tops both the UK and US box office
But there are numerous PBers ** who supported Remain who have accepted the result. they may have preferred Remain to have won but their needs are certainly not mutually exclusive to those of Leave supporters.
** David Herdson, Richard Nabavi, HYFUD, Carlotta, BigG, AndyJS, Pulpstar, Josias Jessop, Foxinsox would all be in this group IMO.
Now these PBers might all be on the centre or right politically and located in 'Middle England' but those, to be blunt, are the people of interest to Conservative governments.
You can add me to the list of PBers who supported Remain but have accepted the result - but accepting is as far along as I've made along that road so far. I know a hell of a lot of people in my circle of friends (most of them, I think) who haven't even got that far yet.
I voted Remain and would so again, but Brexit needs to happen. The risk to our democracy is too great if it doesn't. MP's do represent all thier constituents, and not just the ones that voted for them, and politicians need to represent the Remainers as well as Brexiteers.
I share your alienation. There was a sub population that felt alienated and made a rare turn out in order "to kick the powers that be in the balls". Their alienation is not likely to be resolved by such an act, and indeed may well worsen. Meanwhile people who are frequent voters feel alienated also. This surely accounts for the good LD votes in byelections. I am not at all convinced that alienating the rest of the population helps anyone.
I am not predicting apocalypse post Brexit. It will be a bit crap and worsen rather than resolve the nations problems, while providing circuses to take our politicians eyes off the real issues. In a generation or so the combination of stagnation, and demographic change as older Leavers die off is likely to bring a more constructive approach to our European cousins.
I accept the referendum result in principle - ie, that we're not going to remain a full member of the EU at some point in the medium term.
I don't accept Theresa May's right to negotiate what replaces it.
If she held an election and got a majority on a manifesto spelling out what brexit means brexit means, then I'd accept her right to negotiate as my PM. Until that election happens, I don't consider her signature on the international agreements being renegotiated as a result of brexit as binding.
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
As a Leaver, I'm with you.
Referendums are sometimes necessary, unfortunately, but on these big issues by God they are divisive. We've seen it in Scotland, and now across the UK.
Enough referendums, now. For a while. Let's go back to elections, and parliamentary democracy (unless we can somehow make the leap to Swiss style plebiscitary democracy, which will be hard).
Incidentally, I think this anti-referendums mood will prevent Scottish indy for the foreseeable. Many Scots are still minded to go indy, but even more Scots just hate the idea of another campaign that splits the country. I suspect they will haver, and never quite have that vote, for a long time.
one way to avoid referendum and elections in general is to simply adopt a totally free society, and anrco-capitalist world, where there is no government, no states, no mandatary regulations so no need to elect anybody to decide them, or taxes to pay for there enforced. Cant see it happening in my life time but I can dream!!!!
As to the Scottish referendum, I wonder what would happen If May proposed having a referendum on having a referendum, i.e. Do you think there should not be any more referendums on Scottish independence for 10 years from the last referendum on the subject?
A society with no government, laws or regulations is one where anything goes, including murder and not one I or the vast majority of people would wish to live in
HYUDF
Not nessasraly, some believe a that privet security's company's and privet courts could and would emerge and do the job of the police and courts better than the government provided ones we have at the moment.
To be honest I'm not totally convinced and am a bit agnostic as to full anarchism.
But I do think that we could and should massively role back the importance of the state, in both our personal and economic affers. so that government becomes almost a irrelevance.
But there are numerous PBers ** who supported Remain who have accepted the result. they may have preferred Remain to have won but their needs are certainly not mutually exclusive to those of Leave supporters.
** David Herdson, Richard Nabavi, HYFUD, Carlotta, BigG, AndyJS, Pulpstar, Josias Jessop, Foxinsox would all be in this group IMO.
Now these PBers might all be on the centre or right politically and located in 'Middle England' but those, to be blunt, are the people of interest to Conservative governments.
You can add me to the list of PBers who supported Remain but have accepted the result - but accepting is as far along as I've made along that road so far. I know a hell of a lot of people in my circle of friends (most of them, I think) who haven't even got that far yet.
(I've voted Conservative at every General Election since I've been of voting age, by the way but almost none of my friends have ever voted Conservative so far as I know.)
I not a sociologist, but I would suspect that its probably essayer for a person who normally votes Tory, to come to terms with Leave, knowing that it is being implemented by a Conservative Remain PM. Than for people who don't vote Tory.
I voted Remain and would so again, but Brexit needs to happen. The risk to our democracy is too great if it doesn't. MP's do represent all thier constituents, and not just the ones that voted for them, and politicians need to represent the Remainers as well as Brexiteers.
Yes, my feelings exactly (in my more rational moments).
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
As a Leaver, I'm with you.
Referendums are sometimes necessary, unfortunately, but on these big issues by God they are divisive. We've seen it in Scotland, and now across the UK.
Enough referendums, now. For a while. Let's go back to elections, and parliamentary democracy (unless we can somehow make the leap to Swiss style plebiscitary democracy, which will be hard).
Incidentally, I think this anti-referendums mood will prevent Scottish indy for the foreseeable. Many Scots are still minded to go indy, but even more Scots just hate the idea of another campaign that splits the country. I suspect they will haver, and never quite have that vote, for a long time.
one way to avoid referendum and elections in general is to simply adopt a totally free society, and anrco-capitalist world, where there is no government, no states, no mandatary regulations so no need to elect anybody to decide them, or taxes to pay for there enforced. Cant see it happening in my life time but I can dream!!!!
As to the Scottish referendum, I wonder what would happen If May proposed having a referendum on having a referendum, i.e. Do you think there should not be any more referendums on Scottish independence for 10 years from the last referendum on the subject?
A society with no government, laws or regulations is one where anything goes, including murder and not one I or the vast majority of people would wish to live in
HYUDF
Not nessasraly, some believe a that privet security's company's and privet courts could and would emerge and do the job of the police and courts better than the government provided ones we have at the moment.
You're talking about a state run by a private company. Cue discussion of Dubai etc.
I accept the referendum result in principle - ie, that we're not going to remain a full member of the EU at some point in the medium term.
I don't accept Theresa May's right to negotiate what replaces it.
If she held an election and got a majority on a manifesto spelling out what brexit means brexit means, then I'd accept her right to negotiate as my PM. Until that election happens, I don't consider her signature on the international agreements being renegotiated as a result of brexit as binding.
I'm not certain I understand you caveat, If may was to call a GE now, (ignoring FTPA and so on) she would win with almost any proposal. That would not always be the case but it is at the moment.
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
As a Leaver, I'm with you.
Referendums are sometimes necessary, unfortunately, but on these big issues by God they are divisive. We've seen it in Scotland, and now across the UK.
Enough referendums, now. For a while. Let's go back to elections, and parliamentary democracy (unless we can somehow make the leap to Swiss style plebiscitary democracy, which will be hard).
Incidentally, I think this anti-referendums mood will prevent Scottish indy for the foreseeable. Many Scots are still minded to go indy, but even more Scots just hate the idea of another campaign that splits the country. I suspect they will haver, and never quite have that vote, for a long time.
one way to avoid referendum and elections in general is to simply adopt a totally free society, and anrco-capitalist world, where there is on the subject?
A society with no government, laws or regulations is one where anything goes, including murder and not one I or the vast majority of people would wish to live in
HYUDF
Not nessasraly, some believe a that privet security's company's and privet courts could and would emerge and do the job of the police and courts better than the government provided ones we have at the moment.
To be honest I'm not totally convinced and am a bit agnostic as to full anarchism.
But I do think that we could and should massively role back the importance of the state, in both our personal and economic affers. so that government becomes almost a irrelevance.
Those private security company's and private courts would, of course, end up being used mainly by the rich and there is no reason to suppose the test of society would have any qualms about ignoring them where ever they could. Rolling back the state to almost nothing is again fine if you are rich and can afford private healthcare and private education and drive expensive cars and have no need for welfare of any kind or public services but the majority of us do still need public services and government
As a Left leave voter I said 2 days after the referendum that uk wouldn't leave the EU and I believe over the next 2 years some deal will happen to stay in
I voted to Remain in the EU. If we were to have another referendum then I would vote Remain again because my instincts would compel me to do so. I don't want another referendum though... on anything... ever...
I appreciate the contradiction in my stance but, like many who voted Remain, I feel very torn. I don't want to leave the EU and I don't want to disrespect the referendum result either. Basically I don't really feel I have any stake in the post-referendum political reality.
As a Leaver, I'm with you.
Referendums are sometimes necessary, unfortunately, but on these big issues by God they are divisive. We've seen it in Scotland, and now across the UK.
Enough referendums, now. For a while. Let's go back to elections, and parliamentary democracy (unless we can somehow make the leap to Swiss style plebiscitary democracy, which will be hard).
Incidentally, I think this anti-referendums mood will prevent Scottish indy for the foreseeable. Many Scots are still minded to go indy, but even more Scots just hate the idea of another campaign that splits the country. I suspect they will haver, and never quite have that vote, for a long time.
one way to avoid referendum and elections in general is to simply adopt a totally free society, and anrco-capitalist world, where there is no government, no states, no mandatary regulations so no need to elect anybody to decide them, or taxes to pay for there enforced. Cant see it happening in my life time but I can dream!!!!
As to the Scottish referendum, I wonder what would happen If May proposed having a referendum on having a referendum, i.e. Do you think there should not be any more referendums on Scottish independence for 10 years from the last referendum on the subject?
A society with no government, laws or regulations is one where anything goes, including murder and not one I or the vast majority of people would wish to live in
HYUDF
Not nessasraly, some believe a that privet security's company's and privet courts could and would emerge and do the job of the police and courts better than the government provided ones we have at the moment.
To be honest I'm not totally convinced and am a bit agnostic as to full anarchism.
But I do think that we could and should massively role back the importance of the state, in both our personal and economic affers. so that government becomes almost a irrelevance.
Not necessarily anarcho-capitalist, but very likely more syndicho-anarchist as organisations organically arise to protect workers interests, by economic or physical power. Either system is pretty tough on those without physical or economic power, the elderly or sick for example. Pretty dystophian.
Macron 62%, Le Pen 38%; Fillon 56.5%, Le Pen 43.5%.
So (assume Le Pen gets into R2, wave hands) 1 in 11 of those who say they'd vote for Macron against Le Pen also say they'll vote for Le Pen if her opponent is Fillon. Such people are hardly committed to "centrism".
In 1960 Nixon was ahead of Kennedy in the polls too until the first one-on-one TV debate. Sure, Macron could in principle cry off, but he'd be taking a much bigger risk than Chirac did in 2002 when Le Pen père was far less popular than his daughter Marine is now.
Getting a bit desperate if you are dredging up an example from 57 years ago, but if you are going to compare the two, Nixon led by about 6% leading up to the debates, Macron leads by 24%.
I thought of Nixon in that famous TV debate when I saw Macron last week. Crap on TV in 1960 is quite similar to crap on TV in 2017. Macron presented badly, but fortunately for him Le Pen didn't have much of a clue what she was doing with that graph. Didn't she prepare? Having a look over the paper to check she was pointing in the right place looked awful. Didn't her people have a damned close look at how Netanyahu did it at the United Nations?
Comments
Then we have the Leave vote.. lo and behold the three protagonists are all singing from the hymnsheet, Blair the Master joins them with Major and Paddy Pantsdown to try and slow down/reverse/ignore the vote. A new party is mooted with the same old faces at least now no longer pretending to disagree. For years the normal bloke on the street was offered a choice of three identical parties, so it didn't matter.. then they made the fatal error of offering a real choice... KABOOM!!!!
As others have said before me, you now know what it feels like to be a decent, sensible, eurosceptic, immigration-sceptic white working class British voter for the last 50 fucking years. The feeling that no one represents you, that everything you treasure is being casually trashed, that you are politically powerless as the world changes around you.
Absolutely.
For years they have wanted to shed their white privilege and feel like the immigrants and minorities with real problems that they patronise to make themselves feel good. This is their big chance and theyre gonna let everyone hear about it.
And if it gets too much they can phone their Dad and he can stop it all, yeah
You're making the same mistake again.
But we do get a test of public opinion in five weeks - are you expecting all the doctor surgeon lawyer accountant dentist advertiser restaurateur etc to vote en mass for the LibDems ?
If so then surely you a functioning heavy drinker rather than a functioning alcoholic.
Those with longer term reservations about the euro and the success of open door migration were more right than wrong as well.
There is human nature and then there is idealism. The idealists usually seem to get things wrong.They become engrossed in their dreams.
Most Brexiteers expected some economic discomfort (yet to materialise) and factored it into their vote.
Around 40% of Remainers are Leave sympathisers who bought project fear. I wonder how many know they were fooled but aren't going to openly admit it?
Just because the UK inflicted the mess on itself will not make it any more bearable when it happens.
The political class are doing just fine out of brexit.
However life will be dreary because we're still there (assuming the UK manages to stick together) and the EU is still there, still the only show in town in Europe, and we still want things from it. We will variously try to co-opt, undermine and ignore an EU that we no longer have any influence over, which doesn't owe us anything and generally is uninterested in us. We will fail in all three manoeuvres. We can't even shake off the EU in our dealings with third countries because they will define their relationships with us relative to their much more important relationships with the EU. The motivation for leaving the UK was to reclaim sovereignty, yet paradoxically the EU will dominate our politics and diplomacy much more after we leave than when we were members.
We're heading to Limbo.
The fact they were wrong on almost everything is why it hurts so much now.
Seems Beeb is scared by nasty tories so will not give pro EU march a fair coverage.
I am not on a high salary, but could adapt to food and petrol prices doubling whilst my wage stays the same, but for many people this scenario would be catastrophic.
This is not over by any means.
Nuttall and Farage today, Corbyn and McDonnell next year.
Nor would you have felt for them if Remain had won and they had continued to be shat upon.
No doubt Ukip would have continued to campaign to win seats and influence the government, no one is saying people who lost can't do that now
People were offered the chance to take a supposedly massive risk or stay with mother and they were pissed off enough to take the risk. I'd say a lot of the vote was inspired by the feeling that politicians had ignored them for too long... so what do the losers do? Try to ignore them again #genius
I somehow doubt it was because he was unhappy about the move to biweekly bin collections.
Even if one puts any credence on Cameron's previous renegotiation it was only ever going to apply to future EU migrants.
That is exactly what the Government is proposing, according to this story: no impact on existing migrants and controls on new.
Except in this case the controls on new migrants are potentially much more significant than Cameron's temporary and small reduction in benefit entitlement.
That's a seriously stupid observation.
Or do you really mean that you WANT the people on low incomes who voted Leave to suffer.
At least Roger is honest about so saying.
Macron 62%, Le Pen 38%;
Fillon 56.5%, Le Pen 43.5%.
So (assume Le Pen gets into R2, wave hands) 1 in 11 of those who say they'd vote for Macron against Le Pen also say they'll vote for Le Pen if her opponent is Fillon. Such people are hardly committed to "centrism".
In 1960 Nixon was ahead of Kennedy in the polls too until the first one-on-one TV debate. Sure, Macron could in principle cry off, but he'd be taking a much bigger risk than Chirac did in 2002 when Le Pen père was far less popular than his daughter Marine is now.
Did you feel for those same people when they were lied to about immigration by the Blair government and then by the Brown government and then by the Cameron government ?
Having voted No in the 2014 Indy Ref and remain in the EU Ref last year. I now just want both Referendum results to be respected, and for us all to pull together now to get the best Brexit deal for the whole UK.
Petrol, energy have increased in price since the Brexit vote due mainly to the weak pound.
In some areas (ie housing rent - both inside and outside London) I've seen 100% inflation over a few years.
All of these changes hit the poorest hardest, who have the least disposable income.
But the real problem here is that there seems to be no common ground between the 52 and the 48 - our (self-perceived) needs and, certainly, desires are mutually exclusive. I don't see any way forward that results in a nation at ease with itself.
As for rental increases total horseshit on 100% increase...It was running at 2.8% per year in 2015.
METALLICA ARE NOT WASHED UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You make a good point about his flaky vote. Macron is probably fairly close to me politically on the spectrum, but he leaves me very cold. I couldn't help but agree with Le Pen when she said he spoke for 7 minutes and didn't say anything. I think too much has been projected onto him, he's the next Blair/Obama etc. To me, he seems lightweight. Worrying.
I can't see how we can describe Cameron's 'no ifs, no buts' immigration pledge and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers' posturing as anything but lies. The Blair governments claim that there would be a maximum of 13,000 economic migrants per year from Eastern Europe might perhaps have been utter incompetence rather than a lie but I'm not willing to give Blair the benefit of the doubt regarding honesty.
As to action regarding immigration and its effects the one chance to do something was in voting Leave. What the consequences will be we don't know yet but no change meant continued uncontrolled and unprepared for immigration. The negative consequences of which being felt most by the less affluent members of society.
** David Herdson, Richard Nabavi, HYFUD, Carlotta, BigG, AndyJS, Pulpstar, Josias Jessop, Foxinsox would all be in this group IMO.
Now these PBers might all be on the centre or right politically and located in 'Middle England' but those, to be blunt, are the people of interest to Conservative governments.
Thanks for the reply and I see I was brusque before - I didn't notice that a different person (you) had replied to the one I had asked the question to (Chris_A) so apologies for any upset.
I can't see how we can describe Cameron's 'no ifs, no buts' immigration pledge and Brown's 'British Jobs For British Workers' posturing as anything but lies. The Blair governments claim that there would be a maximum of 13,000 economic migrants per year from Eastern Europe might perhaps have been utter incompetence rather than a lie but I'm not willing to give Blair the benefit of the doubt regarding honesty.
As to action regarding immigration and its effects the one chance to do something was in voting Leave. What the consequences will be we don't know yet but no change meant continued uncontrolled and unprepared for immigration. The negative consequences of which being felt most by the less affluent members of society.
Oh, don't worry about it, no offence taken.
Here's this evening's forecast from Old Carp's Almanack of Future Unhappiness: anyone who voted in the Referendum thinking that, as a consequence, something was going to be done about "Immigration" (be that past, present or future) is deluding themselves, and is going to be bitterly disappointed in a few years' time. And THAT is when the problems of a supposedly un-represented section of the electorate are going to get very nasty indeed.
(I've voted Conservative at every General Election since I've been of voting age, by the way but almost none of my friends have ever voted Conservative so far as I know.)
Macron is like a football team winning 3 nil with 15 minutes to go, and is parking the bus whie running down the clock. It is LePen that needs to take the risks to try to win the game. I think that was the point of sucking up to Putin this week, a desperate bid for the ex Communist vote.
I share your alienation. There was a sub population that felt alienated and made a rare turn out in order "to kick the powers that be in the balls". Their alienation is not likely to be resolved by such an act, and indeed may well worsen. Meanwhile people who are frequent voters feel alienated also. This surely accounts for the good LD votes in byelections. I am not at all convinced that alienating the rest of the population helps anyone.
I am not predicting apocalypse post Brexit. It will be a bit crap and worsen rather than resolve the nations problems, while providing circuses to take our politicians eyes off the real issues. In a generation or so the combination of stagnation, and demographic change as older Leavers die off is likely to bring a more constructive approach to our European cousins.
I don't accept Theresa May's right to negotiate what replaces it.
If she held an election and got a majority on a manifesto spelling out what brexit means brexit means, then I'd accept her right to negotiate as my PM. Until that election happens, I don't consider her signature on the international agreements being renegotiated as a result of brexit as binding.
HYUDF
Not nessasraly, some believe a that privet security's company's and privet courts could and would emerge and do the job of the police and courts better than the government provided ones we have at the moment.
To be honest I'm not totally convinced and am a bit agnostic as to full anarchism.
But I do think that we could and should massively role back the importance of the state, in both our personal and economic affers. so that government becomes almost a irrelevance.