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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The first electoral test following the budget – tonight’s loca

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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    MikeL said:

    Good news for Corbyn in that YouGov poll

    The @YouGov @thetimes poll more voters believed that a government led by Corbyn would be better at reducing the number of people in poverty.

    Only problem is that very few people are that concerned about poverty - or indeed inequality.

    Of course it's Corbyn's favourite topic - but MORI Issues Index consistently shows it way down the list of most people's concerns.
    like the E.U was.....as Mike kept reminding us.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Derby
    Derwent
    CON gain from UKIP
    9 March 2017
    Conservative 789 37.1 28.1
    Labour 611 28.7 -2.4
    UKIP 537 25.2 -7.2
    Lib Dem 192 9.0 -15.4
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    Derby
    Derwent
    CON gain from UKIP
    9 March 2017
    Conservative 789 37.1 28.1
    Labour 611 28.7 -2.4
    UKIP 537 25.2 -7.2
    Lib Dem 192 9.0 -15.4

    Scottish Tory Surge territory :o
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    West Oxfordshire
    Hailey, Minster Lovell & Leafield
    LDEM gain from CON
    9 March 2017
    Lib Dem 567 46.7 34.0
    Con 504 41.5 3.8
    Labour 71 5.8 -4.5
    Green 38 3.1 -2.8
    UKIP 35 2.9 2.9
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    Labour more useless than the west indies ODI team.
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    Labour more useless than the west indies ODI team.

    I have a thread in a few weeks' time saying Labour are as useful as a marzipan dildo.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Labour losing votes across the board in local by-elections.

    It's got to mean something.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,979
    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,979

    Labour losing votes across the board in local by-elections.

    It's got to mean something.

    Must be a root cause somewhere.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Labour losing votes across the board in local by-elections.

    It's got to mean something.

    Must be a root cause somewhere.
    Blairites? Labour voters don't have cars? The weather ?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited March 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    What is nonsense about the outrage is that the "hit" really isn't massive (and I will be hit by this). Brown regularly used to hit my pockets harder with fiscal drag, fuel escalator, etc etc etc.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,115
    edited March 2017
    Bojabob said:

    I'm of the view the bigger the Tory lead, the better. The unions read polling and this forum. Len McCluskey - time to call time on JC.

    Only Labour members can do that now there is no longer a union section in Labour's electoral college
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,291
    edited March 2017
    I see the German authorities / media are doing their usual stuff...Unnamed axe attacker, mental health, from former Yugoslavia...Yugoslavia hadn't existed for 20+ years. How about saying Serbia or Kosovo etc.

    This kind of obscurification doesn't help. That Tim Pool guy who went to Sweden had a very balanced summary of the situation he found and put a lot of blame on this kind of approach just fueling things.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,449

    Broxbourne
    Waltham Cross
    CON gain from Lab
    9 March 2017

    Conservative 650 41.0 -3.5
    Labour 646 40.8 -14.8
    UKIP 200 12.6 12.6
    Lib Dem 89 5.6 5.6

    I'll delurk for this as it's my patch. It was an absolute nail biter at the count. Labour couldn't believe it was so close and in theory they are correct as they were defending a 240 vote majority. It isn't a ward that is naturally Tory and is in many ways trending away.

    Turnout was about 10% down on an ordinary poll and as the limited movement in the Conservative vote share suggests I think our campaign hit its targets more effectively and efficiently. Anyway I'm now back to lurking.
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited March 2017
    ToryJim said:

    Broxbourne
    Waltham Cross
    CON gain from Lab
    9 March 2017

    Conservative 650 41.0 -3.5
    Labour 646 40.8 -14.8
    UKIP 200 12.6 12.6
    Lib Dem 89 5.6 5.6

    I'll delurk for this as it's my patch. It was an absolute nail biter at the count. Labour couldn't believe it was so close and in theory they are correct as they were defending a 240 vote majority. It isn't a ward that is naturally Tory and is in many ways trending away.

    Turnout was about 10% down on an ordinary poll and as the limited movement in the Conservative vote share suggests I think our campaign hit its targets more effectively and efficiently. Anyway I'm now back to lurking.
    before u go why is it trending away from Labour? commuterland?
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Labour more useless than the west indies ODI team.

    I have a thread in a few weeks' time saying Labour are as useful as a marzipan dildo.
    Please tell me you have never tried to use one ...
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    So.....after the OmNICshambles budget, as widely predicted, the Tories have crashed in the polls and are losing by-elections to not just the Lib Dems, but Labour too. Did I get that right?
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Moving the topic on a bit....since the referendum last June, have UKIP gained any seats in local govt byelections?
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    So.....after the OmNICshambles budget, as widely predicted, the Tories have crashed in the polls and are losing by-elections to not just the Lib Dems, but Labour too. Did I get that right?

    Mark Senior posted once to report a LD gain. Since then - nada! Hahaha....
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    felix said:

    So.....after the OmNICshambles budget, as widely predicted, the Tories have crashed in the polls and are losing by-elections to not just the Lib Dems, but Labour too. Did I get that right?

    Mark Senior posted once to report a LD gain. Since then - nada! Hahaha....
    He must be preparing for government........
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    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited March 2017
    ToryJim said:

    Broxbourne
    Waltham Cross
    CON gain from Lab
    9 March 2017

    Conservative 650 41.0 -3.5
    Labour 646 40.8 -14.8
    UKIP 200 12.6 12.6
    Lib Dem 89 5.6 5.6

    I'll delurk for this as it's my patch. It was an absolute nail biter at the count. Labour couldn't believe it was so close and in theory they are correct as they were defending a 240 vote majority. It isn't a ward that is naturally Tory and is in many ways trending away.

    Turnout was about 10% down on an ordinary poll and as the limited movement in the Conservative vote share suggests I think our campaign hit its targets more effectively and efficiently. Anyway I'm now back to lurking.
    Good to see you posting again ToryTim after a four month absence - am I correct in remembering that around a decade ago you were a truly MEGA poster on this site albeit under a different name?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    felix said:

    So.....after the OmNICshambles budget, as widely predicted, the Tories have crashed in the polls and are losing by-elections to not just the Lib Dems, but Labour too. Did I get that right?

    Mark Senior posted once to report a LD gain. Since then - nada! Hahaha....
    To be fair, preparations for government take up a lot of time :smiley:
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    Good morning Rob.

    Ah well, it's off to bed for me now.
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    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited March 2017
    The Times: "Theresa May put the brakes on a controversial tax rise for 1.6 million self-employed workers last night in the face of a Tory rebellion.

    The Prime Minister said that legislation to increase national insurance contributions (NICs) will not be put before the Commons until the autumn and left the door open to concessions only a day after the measure was announced in the budget."


    TMay has clearly heard the alarm bells sounding concerning these ill-conceived Budget proposals. To delay a vote thereon "until the autumn" probably means they're dead.

    In previous times, a lack of support on this scale from a Chancellor's Prime Minister would have resulted in his immediate resignation. Not this time though I fancy ..... but Spreadsheet Phil did misjudge things very badly, even though his intentions were honourable.

    This is a BIG story, which Mike really needs to be leading on, once he's had his cornflakes and has otherwise got his act together!
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    The Daily Telegraph has picked up on it to with this dramaticheadline:

    "Theresa May denies breaking election tax promise as 100 Tory MPs prepare to join Budget rebellion"

    Mrs May cannot herself be absolved from blame, having effectively signed off on the Chancellor's budget measures. This is easily the biggest crisis of her premiership so far.

    Both the PM and her Chancellor very badly misjudged the reaction. The NIC changes were bad enough, but coupled with the draconian increase in tax on dividends announced in both last year's budget and this year's was way too much for Tory MPs to stomach.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    Morning peter, couldn't sleep?
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    The Daily Mail joins in the fun by adding:

    "The delay means the row will now rumble on for months, ending any prospect of Mrs May calling a snap election."

    Of course we on PB.com knew that she was never in a position as such to call a snap General election anyway, but the story nevertheless serves to undermine her authority.


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    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Unfortunately Labour have allowed the Tories to develop a hubris, buoyed by opinion polls and what they consider to be a strong position on BREXIT, plus a UK implosion and Lib Dem slow but not meteoric recovery, TM and Hammond literally took their eyes off the ball, not sure what the long term future for Hammond is.....he will weather this one but not sure what it means in the longer term and when things get tricky with BREXIT he has lost the confidence of some of his backers. Not quite the poll tax but the 1922 Committee has a long memory
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    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited March 2017
    Changing the subject somewhat, The Times reports that:

    "Shorter, paler men are more likely to go bald prematurely"

    Isn't this simply a case of stating what in effect is yesterday's glimpse of the blindingly obvious?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    You mean the one that shows support for the measure 47:33, even though 55% regard it as a broken manifesto pledge?

    Or that shows the catastrophic collapse growth in support for the Tories, +2% to 44%?

    After the budget?
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    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited March 2017
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?



    Well naturally, it was hardly surprising that the majority of people who are subject to P.A.Y.E. were only too happy to see the self-employed lot get it in the neck. That follows as night follows day, but in terms of upsetting Tory voters this was a very grave mistake by Hammond and one I doubt he will recover from. Introducing a few clever lines into a budget speech is one thing, but this was quite another.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785

    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    in terms of upsetting Tory voters this was a very grave mistake
    So we should expect to see substantially lower support for the measure among Tory voters.....?
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?


    Well naturally, it was hardly surprising that the majority of people who are subject to P.A.Y.E. were only too happy to see the self-employed lot get it in the neck. That follows as night follows day, but in terms of upsetting Tory voters this was a very grave mistake by Hammond and one I doubt he will recover from. Introducing a few clever lines into a budget speech is one thing, but this was quite another.

    So your evidence that Tory voters are upset is....zilch! Glad we cleared that up.
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    RobD said:

    Morning peter, couldn't sleep?

    Nah ..... I thought I'd stay up and review the newspapers instead.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,449
    nunu said:

    ToryJim said:

    Broxbourne
    Waltham Cross
    CON gain from Lab
    9 March 2017

    Conservative 650 41.0 -3.5
    Labour 646 40.8 -14.8
    UKIP 200 12.6 12.6
    Lib Dem 89 5.6 5.6

    I'll delurk for this as it's my patch. It was an absolute nail biter at the count. Labour couldn't believe it was so close and in theory they are correct as they were defending a 240 vote majority. It isn't a ward that is naturally Tory and is in many ways trending away.

    Turnout was about 10% down on an ordinary poll and as the limited movement in the Conservative vote share suggests I think our campaign hit its targets more effectively and efficiently. Anyway I'm now back to lurking.
    before u go why is it trending away from Labour? commuterland?
    Sorry, a long day caught up with me. I think a host of reasons for it shifting away. There is an increasing minority population and increasing numbers of voters in lower socioeconomic groups. In many ways Waltham Cross looks south to London rather than North to the rest of Herts. So even though there is some increase in demographics that would ordinarily favour Conservatives they tend to follow more urban voting patterns. Hope this helps.
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    ToryJimToryJim Posts: 3,449

    ToryJim said:

    Broxbourne
    Waltham Cross
    CON gain from Lab
    9 March 2017

    Conservative 650 41.0 -3.5
    Labour 646 40.8 -14.8
    UKIP 200 12.6 12.6
    Lib Dem 89 5.6 5.6

    I'll delurk for this as it's my patch. It was an absolute nail biter at the count. Labour couldn't believe it was so close and in theory they are correct as they were defending a 240 vote majority. It isn't a ward that is naturally Tory and is in many ways trending away.

    Turnout was about 10% down on an ordinary poll and as the limited movement in the Conservative vote share suggests I think our campaign hit its targets more effectively and efficiently. Anyway I'm now back to lurking.
    Good to see you posting again ToryTim after a four month absence - am I correct in remembering that around a decade ago you were a truly MEGA poster on this site albeit under a different name?
    I have posted under a different name, don't think I would ever have been classed as a mega poster although far more prolific than my present rate.
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    ToryJim said:

    ToryJim said:

    Broxbourne
    Waltham Cross
    CON gain from Lab
    9 March 2017

    Conservative 650 41.0 -3.5
    Labour 646 40.8 -14.8
    UKIP 200 12.6 12.6
    Lib Dem 89 5.6 5.6

    I'll delurk for this as it's my patch. It was an absolute nail biter at the count. Labour couldn't believe it was so close and in theory they are correct as they were defending a 240 vote majority. It isn't a ward that is naturally Tory and is in many ways trending away.

    Turnout was about 10% down on an ordinary poll and as the limited movement in the Conservative vote share suggests I think our campaign hit its targets more effectively and efficiently. Anyway I'm now back to lurking.
    Good to see you posting again ToryTim after a four month absence - am I correct in remembering that around a decade ago you were a truly MEGA poster on this site albeit under a different name?
    I have posted under a different name, don't think I would ever have been classed as a mega poster although far more prolific than my present rate.
    Perhaps I'm getting confused with having seen you more on Iain Dale's then blog, but whatever, it's good to see you back.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    Tories have a 19% lead with YouGov

    Up 2% from last week

    OmNICshambles.....
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,776

    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    in terms of upsetting Tory voters this was a very grave mistake
    So we should expect to see substantially lower support for the measure among Tory voters.....?
    Well, given that the PM appears to be rowing back on the policy, one might say we are seeing substantially lower support from her (and the Tory backbenches).
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    RobD said:

    Derby
    Derwent
    CON gain from UKIP
    9 March 2017
    Conservative 789 37.1 28.1
    Labour 611 28.7 -2.4
    UKIP 537 25.2 -7.2
    Lib Dem 192 9.0 -15.4

    Scottish Tory Surge territory :o
    The Derwent's the wrong river: the Scottish surge got a few miles further south in 1745 ... ;)

    Unsure how many Tory's were in Charlie's army, though ...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    May: This lady's for turning.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785

    May: This lady's for turning.

    Tactical retreat - just like Thatcher. Come the Autumn it will be slipped back in, once the self-employed commentariat realise they haven't got the PAYE paying public on their side.....
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    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    in terms of upsetting Tory voters this was a very grave mistake
    So we should expect to see substantially lower support for the measure among Tory voters.....?
    Well, given that the PM appears to be rowing back on the policy, one might say we are seeing substantially lower support from her (and the Tory backbenches).
    Like I said upthread, I'll be very surprised if these NIC proposals aren't quietly (if possible) killed off. Postponing a vote thereon until "the autumn" sounds incredibly vague. In any case, isn't it normal for the entire Finance Bill to be enacted before then?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    in terms of upsetting Tory voters this was a very grave mistake
    So we should expect to see substantially lower support for the measure among Tory voters.....?
    Well, given that the PM appears to be rowing back on the policy, one might say we are seeing substantially lower support from her (and the Tory backbenches).
    Only rowing back on the timing, I suspect. It will be reintroduced in the autumn when the extra maternity rights etc for self-employed have been added. Should be enough to let down the tyres on the outrage bus.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2017

    The Derwent's the wrong river: the Scottish surge got a few miles further south in 1745 ... ;)

    Unsure how many Tory's were in Charlie's army, though ...

    Plenty ....

    The Prince Regent's army U-turned after news reached them of new NIC rates - :smiley:


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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    Bojabob said:

    May's support is a mile wide, and an inch deep.

    Get rid of the utterly useless Jezza and McIRA and replace them with Nandy and Chuka and the game changes, almost overnight.

    Labour's problem is deeper than that. In Ed you had a leader who seems like a giant in comparison to Jezza and his team, yet they still lost.

    Their problem is that Labour's brand is utterly shot; it was shot in 2015, and events since then have just made the situation worse. To rebuild Labour they need to rebuild the brand, and that's difficult at the best of times.

    Every day Corbynites remains in control of the party, the fewer people will want to shift their support back to them.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,898

    The Daily Mail joins in the fun by adding:

    "The delay means the row will now rumble on for months, ending any prospect of Mrs May calling a snap election."

    Of course we on PB.com knew that she was never in a position as such to call a snap General election anyway, but the story nevertheless serves to undermine her authority.


    The NI changes are pretty small beer.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785

    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    felix said:

    Do you ever get the feeling you're talking to yourself?

    Have you bothered to look at the polling instead of quoting the rantings of overpaid self-employed journos?
    in terms of upsetting Tory voters this was a very grave mistake
    So we should expect to see substantially lower support for the measure among Tory voters.....?
    Well, given that the PM appears to be rowing back on the policy, one might say we are seeing substantially lower support from her (and the Tory backbenches).
    Only rowing back on the timing, I suspect. It will be reintroduced in the autumn when the extra maternity rights etc for self-employed have been added. Should be enough to let down the tyres on the outrage bus.
    May:

    "This is a change that leaves lower-paid self-employed workers better off. It's accompanied by more rights and protections for self-employed workers and it reforms the system of National Insurance to make it simpler, to make if fairer and to make it more progressive. What we will do this summer is publish a paper which will explain the full effects of the changes," she said.

    That will contain details about the reforms to National Insurance Contributions (NICs) "along with some changes we plan to make on rights and protections for self-employed workers, including on issues like pension rights and parental rights and maternity pay".


    http://www.itv.com/news/2017-03-09/prime-minister-defends-ni-tax-rise-on-self-employed/

    I suspect those expecting them to be dropped are in for a disappointment....
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    It seems the media and the Conservatives themselves are our only effective opposition, which is a really odd position to be in.

    It also shows a political weakness in May and Hammond: they failed to sell what was basically a simple and small change, which itself was partially offset by an earlier change, in the absence of a functioning opposition.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    JackW said:

    The Derwent's the wrong river: the Scottish surge got a few miles further south in 1745 ... ;)

    Unsure how many Tory's were in Charlie's army, though ...

    Plenty ....

    The Prince Regent's army U-turned after news reached them of new NIC rates - :smiley:
    As he said on his way to the field at Duddiston:
    "Gentlemen: Follow Me, By the Assistance of GOD, I will, this Day, make you pay more NIC".
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,060
    Or Sir John Cope's speech to the Tories:

    "Gentlemen, You are just now to Engage with a parcel of Rable; a Parcel of Brutes, Being a small number of Labourites, You can expect no Booty from such a poor despicable Pack. I have Authority to Declare, That you shall have Eight Full Hour's liberty to Plunder and Pillage the Labour party, (and the Place's which harbour'd and succour'd Them) at your Discretion, with Impunity".
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,196
    Just watching This Week - I think a lot of normally sensible people like Andrew Neil and Peter from Putney have completely lost the plot over this NIC issue. This won't even register with the vast majority of voters. Whether it's the right thing to do is another matter, of course.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    edited March 2017
    tlg86 said:

    I think a lot of normally sensible people like Andrew Neil and Peter from Putney have completely lost the plot over this NIC issue.

    I'm sure that's completely unrelated to their personal circumstances......interestingly, quite a few who have been upfront about this - 'it will affect me' have also been relatively sanguine - 'I'll lose a bit but its not a big deal'.....
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    Voodoo Pole poll.

    "This is totally reversed from 2014
    I am confident that a lot of EU nationals who voted No last time will now be fervent YES votes"

    This seems like the most obvious demographic whose vote will flip en masse to Yes.
    All six of them.
    115,000 or thereabouts. It will lower the bar to clear for a Yes vote.
    Scotland can take Pret A Manger.

    Lots of 'skilled' EU migrants that can put a kettle on and sell a sandwich.
    Seems they cannot find anyone in England with said skills, paints a pretty picture. I presume you are on eof the layabouts that cannot make a cup of coffee.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,724
    Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 7h7 hours ago
    Tonight's results: one Con gain from Lab, one Con gain from UKIP, one LDem gain from Con, two Con holds.

    Biggest change:
    Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 7h7 hours ago
    Hailey, Minster Lovell & Leafield (W. Oxfordshire):
    LD: 46.7% (+34.0)
    CON: 41.5% (+3.8)
    LAB: 5.8% (-4.5)
    GRN: 3.1% (-2.8)
    UKIP: 2.9% (+2.9)

  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Could Witney fall to the Lib Dems at the next GE?
    https://twitter.com/lizleffman/status/839995539307540482

    No.
    (Which is to say, only in an extraordinary set of circumstances - though we do live in extraordinary times).
    Or perhaps maybe. The Conservatives do seem to have got themselves a very poor-quality MP.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137

    Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 7h7 hours ago
    Tonight's results: one Con gain from Lab, one Con gain from UKIP, one LDem gain from Con, two Con holds.

    Biggest change:
    Britain Elects‏ @britainelects 7h7 hours ago
    Hailey, Minster Lovell & Leafield (W. Oxfordshire):
    LD: 46.7% (+34.0)
    CON: 41.5% (+3.8)
    LAB: 5.8% (-4.5)
    GRN: 3.1% (-2.8)
    UKIP: 2.9% (+2.9)

    The independent who stood before must have been hoovering up the LibDem NOTA vote....
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    Stop me if you've heard this before....Scotland already has a power, but doesn't use it - and the SNP demands they want complete control over something they don't use.

    Nicola Sturgeon has been challenged by the Home Office to provide evidence that Scotland needs its own immigration policy after it emerged there is flexibility in the current system that has barely been used. Robert Goodwill, the Immigration Minister, said there is a Scotland-only Shortage Occupation List (SOL) for employers wanting to bring in the skilled personnel they need from outside the European Economic Area. But he said it is “largely aligned” with the UK’s list despite “extensive” consultation with Scottish employers about the sort of posts they need people from other countries to fill. Mr Goodwill challenged the Nationalists to provide evidence that Scotland’s needs are so different that it would justify devolving control over immigration. He concluded the “inconvenient” truth for the SNP is that they were almost identical to the rest of the UK’s needs.

    The UK Government said the Scotland-only list included just two categories of professions – physical scientists and medical professions – covering a total of five specific jobs. His intervention, in a Westminster Hall debate in the Commons, undermined Nicola Sturgeon’s hugely complicated plan for a special Brexit deal so that Scotland could stay in the EU single market when the rest of the UK comes out.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/10/home-office-challenges-snp-scotland-already-has-immigration/
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,137
    tlg86 said:

    Just watching This Week - I think a lot of normally sensible people like Andrew Neil and Peter from Putney have completely lost the plot over this NIC issue. This won't even register with the vast majority of voters. Whether it's the right thing to do is another matter, of course.

    85% of voters unaffected. 10% of voters better off.

    5% of voters are worse off - who knew there were so many journalists?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Corbynites respond to the poll...

    @MattSingh_: So in one hour I've already had "Chicken coup", "YouGov are Tories" and "That's not what my Twitter says". Full house!

    @AdrianSpalinky: @britainelects Woohooo, lying cheating tories provide poll stats that show lying cheating tories ahead in polls @YouGov The right wing fascists friends
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,898
    Scott_P said:

    Corbynites respond to the poll...

    @MattSingh_: So in one hour I've already had "Chicken coup", "YouGov are Tories" and "That's not what my Twitter says". Full house!

    @AdrianSpalinky: @britainelects Woohooo, lying cheating tories provide poll stats that show lying cheating tories ahead in polls @YouGov The right wing fascists friends

    A flesh wound.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062

    RobD said:

    Those numbered baxtered:

    CON 391
    LAB 172
    LD 8 (titters)
    UKIP 0
    GRN 1
    SNP 56

    Majority of 132.

    Just a bit of fun, of course.. :smiley:

    I suspect it would be worse for SNP (slightly) and Lab (a good deal), and better for Con and LD.

    LDs are making a recovery where it matters, while Con is making inroads into exactly the demographics that would deliver northern and midlands seats by the bucketload. Con would also stand a decent chance of gaining half a dozen or so seats in Scotland.
    Always one brings out the Tory surge KLAXON , I also could be the next Pope.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    Those numbered baxtered:

    CON 391
    LAB 172
    LD 8 (titters)
    UKIP 0
    GRN 1
    SNP 56

    Majority of 132.

    Just a bit of fun, of course.. :smiley:

    I suspect it would be worse for SNP (slightly) and Lab (a good deal), and better for Con and LD.

    LDs are making a recovery where it matters, while Con is making inroads into exactly the demographics that would deliver northern and midlands seats by the bucketload. Con would also stand a decent chance of gaining half a dozen or so seats in Scotland.
    Always one brings out the Tory surge KLAXON , I also could be the next Pope.
    Isn't that how the new pope is announced, with a blast from the STS Klaxon?
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited March 2017
    I see the latest You Gov is demonstrating yet again what an asset Corbyn is to the Tories
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    Maybe if the Tories concentrated on taxing those that are loaded and avoid it rather than nickel and diming poor people they may not be seen as the evil heartless self interested arses that they are.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,979



    ***** BETTING POST *****

    Are we heading for a General Election in LESS than 9 weeks time?
    ~SNIP~

    Thanks to the likes of Michael Crick, etc, this is a story which simply won't go away and odds of 4.0 or slightly more are available against a GE being held during the course of 2017 which looks like decent value to me on this basis alone, never mind about Brexit and other considerations.

    I'm on for a nifty fifty, but be sure to DYOR.

    The Daily Mail joins in the fun by adding:

    "The delay means the row will now rumble on for months, ending any prospect of Mrs May calling a snap election."
    Of course we on PB.com knew that she was never in a position as such to call a snap General election anyway, but the story nevertheless serves to undermine her authority.

    From > 25% chance to "Never" in 6 days :>

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,898
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    Maybe if the Tories concentrated on taxing those that are loaded and avoid it rather than nickel and diming poor people they may not be seen as the evil heartless self interested arses that they are.
    It feels good to be evil and heartless.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062

    Stop me if you've heard this before....Scotland already has a power, but doesn't use it - and the SNP demands they want complete control over something they don't use.

    Nicola Sturgeon has been challenged by the Home Office to provide evidence that Scotland needs its own immigration policy after it emerged there is flexibility in the current system that has barely been used. Robert Goodwill, the Immigration Minister, said there is a Scotland-only Shortage Occupation List (SOL) for employers wanting to bring in the skilled personnel they need from outside the European Economic Area. But he said it is “largely aligned” with the UK’s list despite “extensive” consultation with Scottish employers about the sort of posts they need people from other countries to fill. Mr Goodwill challenged the Nationalists to provide evidence that Scotland’s needs are so different that it would justify devolving control over immigration. He concluded the “inconvenient” truth for the SNP is that they were almost identical to the rest of the UK’s needs.

    The UK Government said the Scotland-only list included just two categories of professions – physical scientists and medical professions – covering a total of five specific jobs. His intervention, in a Westminster Hall debate in the Commons, undermined Nicola Sturgeon’s hugely complicated plan for a special Brexit deal so that Scotland could stay in the EU single market when the rest of the UK comes out.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/10/home-office-challenges-snp-scotland-already-has-immigration/

    Struggling today TOOM, you avoiding eth real Scottish news as usual.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    Maybe if the Tories concentrated on taxing those that are loaded and avoid it rather than nickel and diming poor people they may not be seen as the evil heartless self interested arses that they are.
    'Progressive' is not in your dictionary, is it?

    And 'more than half the money raised will come from the top 10%' doesn't compute.....
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    malcolmg said:

    Stop me if you've heard this before....Scotland already has a power, but doesn't use it - and the SNP demands they want complete control over something they don't use.

    Nicola Sturgeon has been challenged by the Home Office to provide evidence that Scotland needs its own immigration policy after it emerged there is flexibility in the current system that has barely been used. Robert Goodwill, the Immigration Minister, said there is a Scotland-only Shortage Occupation List (SOL) for employers wanting to bring in the skilled personnel they need from outside the European Economic Area. But he said it is “largely aligned” with the UK’s list despite “extensive” consultation with Scottish employers about the sort of posts they need people from other countries to fill. Mr Goodwill challenged the Nationalists to provide evidence that Scotland’s needs are so different that it would justify devolving control over immigration. He concluded the “inconvenient” truth for the SNP is that they were almost identical to the rest of the UK’s needs.

    The UK Government said the Scotland-only list included just two categories of professions – physical scientists and medical professions – covering a total of five specific jobs. His intervention, in a Westminster Hall debate in the Commons, undermined Nicola Sturgeon’s hugely complicated plan for a special Brexit deal so that Scotland could stay in the EU single market when the rest of the UK comes out.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/10/home-office-challenges-snp-scotland-already-has-immigration/

    Struggling today TOOM, you avoiding eth real Scottish news as usual.
    So why should Scotland control immigration when it doesn't use the powers it already has?

    Answer came there none.....
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    Maybe if the Tories concentrated on taxing those that are loaded and avoid it rather than nickel and diming poor people they may not be seen as the evil heartless self interested arses that they are.
    It feels good to be evil and heartless.

    And there's the babies......
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    It's not the tax increase that's the problem. That seems to have popular support. It's breaking the manifesto commitment not to raise NI which has caused the u turn. It makes 2020 much harder to fight. Why would anyone believe what the 2020 manifesto says if they are breaking the biggest promises from the 2015 one. I'm sure if Dave thought it was possible he would have broken the promise on holding a referendum, that's how politically toxic breaking manifesto commitments is. YouGov just showed that over 50% of people think the Tories would be breaking their promise, it will be very tough to convince those people that they wouldn't also break things from their 2020 one in that campaign.

    No, it's not about feathering the beds of the lightly taxed, it's about upholding promises that were made by all of the Cabinet in 2015.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360
    Bet the Tories cannot wait until swing back starts to come into play from these dog days of mid term. Only a 19% lead over Corbyn is mildly embarrassing, a bit like England winning that ODI by less than 200 runs.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,776

    tlg86 said:

    I think a lot of normally sensible people like Andrew Neil and Peter from Putney have completely lost the plot over this NIC issue.

    I'm sure that's completely unrelated to their personal circumstances......interestingly, quite a few who have been upfront about this - 'it will affect me' have also been relatively sanguine - 'I'll lose a bit but its not a big deal'.....
    Well, it won't effect me - but I think your obvious devotion to the PM is blinding you to the politics of this.
    The intention of the NIC change is (quite justifiably) to reduce the effective tax disparity between PAYE and self employed, which has increasingly been used as a vehicle for tax avoidance, at significant and growing cost to the Treasury, and to the annoyance of the rest of us who don’t benefit.
    However, this measure was not at all well thought out either practically or politically.
    The change has at least three other significant effects. It significantly increases the hardship of the ‘just about managing’ (or worse off) self employed (and does little to address the use of self employed by large companies as a means of avoiding their own obligations to employees); it reduces the incentives (or subsidies, it you prefer) to start up entrepreneurs; it blatantly breaches a manifesto commitment, whatever sophistry its defenders might employ.
    So like most measures, it is neither entirely good, nor entirely bad. The real problem is that neither the Chancellor, nor the PM, seem to have given much serious thought to the negative effects of the policy - as clearly evidenced by the backbench rebellion and rapid deployment of a six month delay to think about it.
    Those who quote the polls are ignoring the long term, and the salient fact that this measure pisses off some of the Tories’ staunchest supporters. Of course May will weather the immediate political crisis, but she is displaying, perhaps not for the first time, a political tin ear.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    It's not the tax increase that's the problem. That seems to have popular support. It's breaking the manifesto commitment not to raise NI which has caused the u turn. It makes 2020 much harder to fight. Why would anyone believe what the 2020 manifesto says if they are breaking the biggest promises from the 2015 one. I'm sure if Dave thought it was possible he would have broken the promise on holding a referendum, that's how politically toxic breaking manifesto commitments is. YouGov just showed that over 50% of people think the Tories would be breaking their promise, it will be very tough to convince those people that they wouldn't also break things from their 2020 one in that campaign.

    No, it's not about feathering the beds of the lightly taxed, it's about upholding promises that were made by all of the Cabinet in 2015.
    bollocks

    Cameron broke loads of pledges - deficit gone by 2015 ?
    the LDs brought in Uni fees
    Blairs Labour - where do you start ?

    this is westminster bubble stuff, most of the electorate dont care

    if you actually think that a) most people read manifestos and b) voters believe policiticans then youve lost the plot Max.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,954

    Good news for Corbyn in that YouGov poll

    The @YouGov @thetimes poll more voters believed that a government led by Corbyn would be better at reducing the number of people in poverty.

    Not sure how.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    kle4 said:

    Good news for Corbyn in that YouGov poll

    The @YouGov @thetimes poll more voters believed that a government led by Corbyn would be better at reducing the number of people in poverty.

    Not sure how.
    Poverty is a relative measure. It usually goes down during recessions and up during economic growth. The public is very possibly correct.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,954
    So most people think the Tories broke their word, which they did, but that the measure is fair. I hope may listens. It'll annoy old Guido, he's been hysterical I'm excitement at a broken pledge.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360
    kle4 said:

    Good news for Corbyn in that YouGov poll

    The @YouGov @thetimes poll more voters believed that a government led by Corbyn would be better at reducing the number of people in poverty.

    Not sure how.
    Well if the median wage falls far enough those more than some arbitrary percentage below it would fall.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    Maybe if the Tories concentrated on taxing those that are loaded and avoid it rather than nickel and diming poor people they may not be seen as the evil heartless self interested arses that they are.
    The real irony here is that this is exactly what the measure is designed to do. Which is probably why the backbencher are so upset - it would leave all of them worse off!
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    edited March 2017
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    I think a lot of normally sensible people like Andrew Neil and Peter from Putney have completely lost the plot over this NIC issue.

    I'm sure that's completely unrelated to their personal circumstances......interestingly, quite a few who have been upfront about this - 'it will affect me' have also been relatively sanguine - 'I'll lose a bit but its not a big deal'.....
    It significantly increases the hardship of the ‘just about managing’ (or worse off) self employed
    Care to put some numbers to that?

    Those earning less than £16,250 are unaffected or gaining. Because the self-employed have typical earnings of just under £14,000 this means over half will be better off or unaffected by these coming changes - including two-thirds of all self-employed women. And because rate increases fall heaviest on the higher earners, over half of the overall tax increase will come from the richest 10 per cent of households - meaning a (very small) reduction in inequality.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/national-insurance-rise-right-thing-to-do
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    It's not the tax increase that's the problem. That seems to have popular support. It's breaking the manifesto commitment not to raise NI which has caused the u turn. It makes 2020 much harder to fight. Why would anyone believe what the 2020 manifesto says if they are breaking the biggest promises from the 2015 one. I'm sure if Dave thought it was possible he would have broken the promise on holding a referendum, that's how politically toxic breaking manifesto commitments is. YouGov just showed that over 50% of people think the Tories would be breaking their promise, it will be very tough to convince those people that they wouldn't also break things from their 2020 one in that campaign.

    No, it's not about feathering the beds of the lightly taxed, it's about upholding promises that were made by all of the Cabinet in 2015.
    Can you explain why last year's national insurance increase for those in contracted out pensions, wasn't a national insurance increase?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334
    kle4 said:

    Good news for Corbyn in that YouGov poll

    The @YouGov @thetimes poll more voters believed that a government led by Corbyn would be better at reducing the number of people in poverty.

    Not sure how.
    Well, in terms of relative poverty as everyone would be stony broke nobody would be poorer than anybody else. A bit like the famous statement of that Vietnamese foreign minister.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,724

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    It's not the tax increase that's the problem. That seems to have popular support. It's breaking the manifesto commitment not to raise NI which has caused the u turn. It makes 2020 much harder to fight. Why would anyone believe what the 2020 manifesto says if they are breaking the biggest promises from the 2015 one. I'm sure if Dave thought it was possible he would have broken the promise on holding a referendum, that's how politically toxic breaking manifesto commitments is. YouGov just showed that over 50% of people think the Tories would be breaking their promise, it will be very tough to convince those people that they wouldn't also break things from their 2020 one in that campaign.

    No, it's not about feathering the beds of the lightly taxed, it's about upholding promises that were made by all of the Cabinet in 2015.
    bollocks

    Cameron broke loads of pledges - deficit gone by 2015 ?
    the LDs brought in Uni fees
    Blairs Labour - where do you start ?

    this is westminster bubble stuff, most of the electorate dont care

    if you actually think that a) most people read manifestos and b) voters believe policiticans then youve lost the plot Max.
    'Deficit gone by 2015' - something that you can try to achieve, not something over which you have direct control. In other words a failure not a lie.
    LD Tuition Fees - They failed to convince the larger party in the coalition, i.e. something over which they didn't have direct control. Although that could be looked on as a failure rather than a lie, they got hammered for it.

    NIC - something over which this government has direct control - a straightforward lie.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited March 2017
    .

    malcolmg said:

    Stop me if you've heard this before....Scotland already has a power, but doesn't use it - and the SNP demands they want complete control over something they don't use.

    Nicola Sturgeon has been challenged by the Home Office to provide evidence that Scotland needs its own immigration policy after it emerged there is flexibility in the current system that has barely been used. Robert Goodwill, the Immigration Minister, said there is a Scotland-only Shortage Occupation List (SOL) for employers wanting to bring in the skilled personnel they need from outside the European Economic Area. But he said it is “largely aligned” with the UK’s list despite “extensive” consultation with Scottish employers about the sort of posts they need people from other countries to fill. Mr Goodwill challenged the Nationalists to provide evidence that Scotland’s needs are so different that it would justify devolving control over immigration. He concluded the “inconvenient” truth for the SNP is that they were almost identical to the rest of the UK’s needs.

    The UK Government said the Scotland-only list included just two categories of professions – physical scientists and medical professions – covering a total of five specific jobs. His intervention, in a Westminster Hall debate in the Commons, undermined Nicola Sturgeon’s hugely complicated plan for a special Brexit deal so that Scotland could stay in the EU single market when the rest of the UK comes out.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/10/home-office-challenges-snp-scotland-already-has-immigration/

    Struggling today TOOM, you avoiding eth real Scottish news as usual.
    So why should Scotland control immigration when it doesn't use the powers it already has?

    Answer came there none.....
    Because we are part of the EU with that freedom of movement thingy?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,334

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    It's not the tax increase that's the problem. That seems to have popular support. It's breaking the manifesto commitment not to raise NI which has caused the u turn. It makes 2020 much harder to fight. Why would anyone believe what the 2020 manifesto says if they are breaking the biggest promises from the 2015 one. I'm sure if Dave thought it was possible he would have broken the promise on holding a referendum, that's how politically toxic breaking manifesto commitments is. YouGov just showed that over 50% of people think the Tories would be breaking their promise, it will be very tough to convince those people that they wouldn't also break things from their 2020 one in that campaign.

    No, it's not about feathering the beds of the lightly taxed, it's about upholding promises that were made by all of the Cabinet in 2015.
    bollocks

    Cameron broke loads of pledges - deficit gone by 2015 ?
    the LDs brought in Uni fees
    Blairs Labour - where do you start ?

    this is westminster bubble stuff, most of the electorate dont care

    if you actually think that a) most people read manifestos and b) voters believe policiticans then youve lost the plot Max.
    'Deficit gone by 2015' - something that you can try to achieve, not something over which you have direct control. In other words a failure not a lie.
    LD Tuition Fees - They failed to convince the larger party in the coalition, i.e. something over which they didn't have direct control. Although that could be looked on as a failure rather than a lie, they got hammered for it.

    NIC - something over which this government has direct control - a straightforward lie.
    Labour lied about tuition fees in their 2001 manifesto, with far more serious consequences to far more people than this will have. It didn't seem to hurt them.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    It's not the tax increase that's the problem. That seems to have popular support. It's breaking the manifesto commitment not to raise NI which has caused the u turn. It makes 2020 much harder to fight. Why would anyone believe what the 2020 manifesto says if they are breaking the biggest promises from the 2015 one. I'm sure if Dave thought it was possible he would have broken the promise on holding a referendum, that's how politically toxic breaking manifesto commitments is. YouGov just showed that over 50% of people think the Tories would be breaking their promise, it will be very tough to convince those people that they wouldn't also break things from their 2020 one in that campaign.

    No, it's not about feathering the beds of the lightly taxed, it's about upholding promises that were made by all of the Cabinet in 2015.
    bollocks

    Cameron broke loads of pledges - deficit gone by 2015 ?
    the LDs brought in Uni fees
    Blairs Labour - where do you start ?

    this is westminster bubble stuff, most of the electorate dont care

    if you actually think that a) most people read manifestos and b) voters believe policiticans then youve lost the plot Max.
    The Lib Dems who lost their seats might disagree but you are generally right about the Westminster bubble. What you miss is that the importance of that bubble in the shape of backbench support for Theresa May and her government. Theresa May was supposed to be different from Cameron. Now, this morning there are signs the Prime Minister understands that even if some Tory spinners on here have not yet caught up.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    It's not the tax increase that's the problem. That seems to have popular support. It's breaking the manifesto commitment not to raise NI which has caused the u turn. It makes 2020 much harder to fight. Why would anyone believe what the 2020 manifesto says if they are breaking the biggest promises from the 2015 one. I'm sure if Dave thought it was possible he would have broken the promise on holding a referendum, that's how politically toxic breaking manifesto commitments is. YouGov just showed that over 50% of people think the Tories would be breaking their promise, it will be very tough to convince those people that they wouldn't also break things from their 2020 one in that campaign.

    No, it's not about feathering the beds of the lightly taxed, it's about upholding promises that were made by all of the Cabinet in 2015.
    bollocks

    Cameron broke loads of pledges - deficit gone by 2015 ?
    the LDs brought in Uni fees
    Blairs Labour - where do you start ?

    this is westminster bubble stuff, most of the electorate dont care

    if you actually think that a) most people read manifestos and b) voters believe policiticans then youve lost the plot Max.
    And look at what happened to the Lib Dems in 2015. Smashed. Labour have been left with a zero rating for trust as well.

    Most people don't read manifestos, but they know the Tories pledged not to raise the three main taxes in 2015. Now they are raising one of them. Voters don't believe politicians, and the point of the manifesto is that it's a binding commitment for the next 5 years. If it isn't binding then what's the point of having one. This is why the U-turn has come. It also makes party management a complete nightmare, once you have broken one promise, it's easy to break others. What then for the Triple Lock or the 0.7% DfID lock, or even the 2% defence spending lock?

    Don't break the promise or hold an election and make new ones. Those are the two options. Especially since this raises such a small amount of money.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,954
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:

    That YouGov poll was conducted entirely after the budget.

    But some before the negative headlines this morning?
    Why should people be influenced by such headlines. Is the nation thick ?
    It's all about the narrative, and the headlines feed into that.
    Yes. Also, most of us have little grasp of economics, so an initial view on fairness of a measure may be malleable if we then hear over and over how bad it is.

    Probably a similar reason why Corbyn is not well regarded even by moat labour PB ers. I mean, he's awesome, obviously, but they're surrounded by baby eating right-wing fruitcakes, and weirdy beady lib Dems, which influences them.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    kle4 said:

    Good news for Corbyn in that YouGov poll

    The @YouGov @thetimes poll more voters believed that a government led by Corbyn would be better at reducing the number of people in poverty.

    Not sure how.

    We'll all be poorer, so relative poverty will fall.....
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    It's not the tax increase that's the problem. That seems to have popular support. It's breaking the manifesto commitment not to raise NI which has caused the u turn. It makes 2020 much harder to fight. Why would anyone believe what the 2020 manifesto says if they are breaking the biggest promises from the 2015 one. I'm sure if Dave thought it was possible he would have broken the promise on holding a referendum, that's how politically toxic breaking manifesto commitments is. YouGov just showed that over 50% of people think the Tories would be breaking their promise, it will be very tough to convince those people that they wouldn't also break things from their 2020 one in that campaign.

    No, it's not about feathering the beds of the lightly taxed, it's about upholding promises that were made by all of the Cabinet in 2015.
    bollocks

    Cameron broke loads of pledges - deficit gone by 2015 ?
    the LDs brought in Uni fees
    Blairs Labour - where do you start ?

    this is westminster bubble stuff, most of the electorate dont care

    if you actually think that a) most people read manifestos and b) voters believe policiticans then youve lost the plot Max.
    'Deficit gone by 2015' - something that you can try to achieve, not something over which you have direct control. In other words a failure not a lie.
    LD Tuition Fees - They failed to convince the larger party in the coalition, i.e. something over which they didn't have direct control. Although that could be looked on as a failure rather than a lie, they got hammered for it.

    NIC - something over which this government has direct control - a straightforward lie.
    Labour lied about tuition fees in their 2001 manifesto, with far more serious consequences to far more people than this will have. It didn't seem to hurt them.
    this is all semantics. If Corbyn is still leader of the Labour Party at GE2020, the Tories will remain in power
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,724

    ydoethur said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Danny565 said:

    In case we forgot, it was this time last year that Labour briefly went into the lead in the polls (after Osborne tried to cut benefits for disabled people in the Budget).

    A real sickener.
    See this is the problem, if you don't hit a (too lightly taxed) relatively well off portion of the population - just who the hell do you "hit" to get the nation's finances in order ?
    This is why I pray and hope Hammond won't back down.
    It's not the tax increase that's the problem. That seems to have popular support. It's breaking the manifesto commitment not to raise NI which has caused the u turn. It makes 2020 much harder to fight. Why would anyone believe what the 2020 manifesto says if they are breaking the biggest promises from the 2015 one. I'm sure if Dave thought it was possible he would have broken the promise on holding a referendum, that's how politically toxic breaking manifesto commitments is. YouGov just showed that over 50% of people think the Tories would be breaking their promise, it will be very tough to convince those people that they wouldn't also break things from their 2020 one in that campaign.

    No, it's not about feathering the beds of the lightly taxed, it's about upholding promises that were made by all of the Cabinet in 2015.
    bollocks

    Cameron broke loads of pledges - deficit gone by 2015 ?
    the LDs brought in Uni fees
    Blairs Labour - where do you start ?

    this is westminster bubble stuff, most of the electorate dont care

    if you actually think that a) most people read manifestos and b) voters believe policiticans then youve lost the plot Max.
    'Deficit gone by 2015' - something that you can try to achieve, not something over which you have direct control. In other words a failure not a lie.
    LD Tuition Fees - They failed to convince the larger party in the coalition, i.e. something over which they didn't have direct control. Although that could be looked on as a failure rather than a lie, they got hammered for it.

    NIC - something over which this government has direct control - a straightforward lie.
    Labour lied about tuition fees in their 2001 manifesto, with far more serious consequences to far more people than this will have. It didn't seem to hurt them.
    this is all semantics. If Corbyn is still leader of the Labour Party at GE2020, the Tories will remain in power
    Agreed, but he probably won't be. A new leader could give the Tories a real shock, they should be behaving as if Corbyn will be gone next year.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited March 2017
    O/T this is interesting... live feed of Earth as seen from the International Space Station

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzMQza8xZCc
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,360
    edited March 2017
    As someone who will end up paying the full whack over the next 2 years I remain pretty sanguine about the NICs changes. Class 2 contributions are an anachronism from some forgotten time and clearly need to be abolished. The fact that this means the majority of the self employed will be paying less is fine because it helps those on low earnings who do not benefit from living wage increases. Over time I agree that the tax system should aim towards neutrality rather than incentivising one system of employment over another.

    I am more concerned about having a strong government ready to face the material challenges ahead who take deficit reduction seriously. A retreat would be a disappointment.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,979
    edited March 2017
    ydoethur said:


    Labour lied about tuition fees in their 2001 manifesto, with far more serious consequences to far more people than this will have. It didn't seem to hurt them.

    Started the process of creating a de facto 9% additional tax for the next generation. Of course those affected by the next hike - alot of them can't yet vote.

    If you ever want an example of how to boil a frog, tuition fees provide the perfect example.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    NICs

    image
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