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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Northern Ireland: Calls for ‘united Unionism’ simply don’t add

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  • Options
    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    I was talking to our NI Con candidate at an event and was very apologetic about not voting for him. I did say it would be a long road when people like me don't vote for them. He seemed a nice chap.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,364

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    UKIP the true UK party, elected representatives in all four Home Nations.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,364
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    Fair play to them for trying to campaign there though.
    The UUP were Tories in all but name until 1972. Though the final links were broken in 1985, after the Anglo-Irish Agreement.
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    Shadsy is offering 7/4 on political prophet and PB favourite Sion Simon winning the West Midlands non-job election:

    https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/politics/british/next-mayor/west-midlands-mayoral-election/222689275/

    Labour were ahead 10% in the relevant councils in 2015.

    It seems to be the only one that the Tories think they can win.
  • Options
    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,040

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    UKIP the true UK party, elected representatives in all four Home Nations.
    Indeed - bigots and racists are spread right across the Kingdom.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,097
    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
  • Options
    BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Yes, bad day for unionism sounds about right. Perhaps not as inevitable a death knell as some would have it, but hardly great.

    How soon until direct rule, and how's Foster doing ?

    Brokenshire and May will do anything they can to avoid direct rule, even allowing a SF UUP Alliance deal if neither SF nor the SDLP will work with the Foster led DUP
    Would see Michelle O'Neill as First Minister and the youngest ever politician to lead one of the four nations of the UK.

    On a less trivial note, you would have someone leading a county which she does believe has any right to exist – SF considers Northern Ireland to be an illegitimate entity. Ate there any such examples globally of such a phenomenon?

    Nicola Sturgeon?
    Sturgeon was 44 when she became first minister.

    O'Neill would be only 40.
    Second part of the question
    Also not Sturgeon as she is leading Scotland – a nation she considers fully legitimate.
    She's not: she's a regional first minister in a state she considers illegitimate
    Scotland is a country within a state if we are being pedantic (which of course we are, this being PB).
    But it's not an independent legal entity (which is what distinguishes "a nation" from "existing in a state of nationhood"
    My question was whether there any any other global examples of a person leading a country he or she considers to be illegitimate, which would be the case were O'Neill to become first minister of NI but is certainly not the case with Sturgeon (in fact the opposite is true in the latter's case).
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,871

    Pulpstar said:

    Lucian How did you transfer if I may be so bold to ask ?

    I'm guessing you are a 1) NI Conservatives (If they were in your seat) 2) UUP man, but thereafter ?

    Were I not actively a UUP supporter you would have been right but no. I went the other way round. Without going through the lot I can tell you I voted both Alliance and SDLP quite high.
    There are constituencies where it would be stupid for a Unionist not to transfer to SDLP (I'd far rather have an SDLP MLA than another from SF).
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,760
    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Yes, bad day for unionism sounds about right. Perhaps not as inevitable a death knell as some would have it, but hardly great.

    How soon until direct rule, and how's Foster doing ?

    Brokenshire and May will do anything they can to avoid direct rule, even allowing a SF UUP Alliance deal if neither SF nor the SDLP will work with the Foster led DUP
    Would see Michelle O'Neill as First Minister and the youngest ever politician to lead one of the four nations of the UK.

    On a less trivial note, you would have someone leading a county which she does believe has any right to exist – SF considers Northern Ireland to be an illegitimate entity. Ate there any such examples globally of such a phenomenon?

    Nicola Sturgeon?
    Sturgeon was 44 when she became first minister.

    O'Neill would be only 40.
    Second part of the question
    Also not Sturgeon as she is leading Scotland – a nation she considers fully legitimate.
    She's not: she's a regional first minister in a state she considers illegitimate
    Scotland is a country within a state if we are being pedantic (which of course we are, this being PB).
    But it's not an independent legal entity (which is what distinguishes "a nation" from "existing in a state of nationhood"
    My question was whether there any any other global examples of a person leading a country he or she considers to be illegitimate, which would be the case were O'Neill to become first minister of NI but is certainly not the case with Sturgeon (in fact the opposite is true in the latter's case).
    De Valera

    keep up
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Yes, bad day for unionism sounds about right. Perhaps not as inevitable a death knell as some would have it, but hardly great.

    How soon until direct rule, and how's Foster doing ?

    Brokenshire and May will do anything they can to avoid direct rule, even allowing a SF UUP Alliance deal if neither SF nor the SDLP will work with the Foster led DUP
    Would see Michelle O'Neill as First Minister and the youngest ever politician to lead one of the four nations of the UK.

    On a less trivial note, you would have someone leading a county which she does believe has any right to exist – SF considers Northern Ireland to be an illegitimate entity. Ate there any such examples globally of such a phenomenon?

    Nicola Sturgeon?
    Sturgeon was 44 when she became first minister.

    O'Neill would be only 40.
    Second part of the question
    Also not Sturgeon as she is leading Scotland – a nation she considers fully legitimate.
    She's not: she's a regional first minister in a state she considers illegitimate
    Scotland is a country within a state if we are being pedantic (which of course we are, this being PB).
    But it's not an independent legal entity (which is what distinguishes "a nation" from "existing in a state of nationhood"
    My question was whether there any any other global examples of a person leading a country he or she considers to be illegitimate, which would be the case were O'Neill to become first minister of NI but is certainly not the case with Sturgeon (in fact the opposite is true in the latter's case).
    Northern Ireland isnt a country either. It has the same status as Scotland.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The stench of death is surrounding the Labour Party...

    @theobertram: Based on everything I've seen & heard these last two weeks, publicly & privately, I am no longer optimistic about Labour's long term future.

    @curiusblack: @theobertram @JohnRentoul people saying @DavidLammy would make a good leader
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    UKIP the true UK party, elected representatives in all four Home Nations.
    The Tories have one NI councillor!
  • Options
    What a moron Trump is

    image
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    What a moron Trump is

    They've already had plenty of warning on this one, so an extra week isn't going to make that much difference!
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,760
    edited March 2017
    Germany and France saying Europe must move at different speeds


    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/berlin-und-paris-werben-fuer-europa-verschiedener-geschwindigkeiten-14912622.html

    stupid Dave didnt take the offer
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,364

    Bojabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A very good article, and thanks for the tips - your instinct to broadly lay the DUP was correct !

    It is a shame the SDLP, UUP and alliance aren't doing better to be perfectly honest - I do think SF are correct to ask for Arlene Fosters' resignation though.

    The map of Northern Ireland is interesting. There is clear nationalist territory standing between Eire and the unionist seats, with West Belfast looking a bit like West Berlin used to as a sort of nationalist enclave within the unionist part !

    Ha I spotted that too. Hard to see why the western counties of NI remained in the UK when Ireland gained independence – demographic change?
    I think Fermanagh and Tyrone were always majority Catholic - together with southern Armagh, southern Down and western Londonderry.

    It was meant to have been sorted out in the 1920s but wasn't:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Boundary_Commission
    At the 1918 Erection:

    Fermanagh was 53.59% Nationalist, 46.41 Unionist
    Tyrone was 54.60% Nationalist, 45.40 Unionist

    Among the other counties:
    Armagh South was 100% Nationalist
    Londonderry City was 51.50% Nationalist, 48.50 Unionist
    Down South was 59.39% Nationalist, 37.66 Unionist, 2.95 other
    Down East was 57.83% Nationalist, 42.17 Unionist
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lucian How did you transfer if I may be so bold to ask ?

    I'm guessing you are a 1) NI Conservatives (If they were in your seat) 2) UUP man, but thereafter ?

    Were I not actively a UUP supporter you would have been right but no. I went the other way round. Without going through the lot I can tell you I voted both Alliance and SDLP quite high.
    There are constituencies where it would be stupid for a Unionist not to transfer to SDLP (I'd far rather have an SDLP MLA than another from SF).
    I have been ranting about transfers today. At stage 2 in the FST count the exceedingly transfer friendly and general nice guy from the SDLP ended up 50 or so votes behind the third SF candidate who I voted 12 of 12 (I put terror sympathisers and naive youngsters ahead of convicted terrorists). There were hundreds of non-transferable votes from the TUV, Con, All, Green and Labour candidates....

    Aaaarrgghhh.



  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,364
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    UKIP the true UK party, elected representatives in all four Home Nations.
    The Tories have one NI councillor!
    Huzzah! :lol:
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,109

    Germany and France saying Europe must move at different speeds

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/berlin-und-paris-werben-fuer-europa-verschiedener-geschwindigkeiten-14912622.html

    stupid Dave didnt take the offer

    He should have still been at the table leaving us all guessing when the referendum would be called.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,951
    Scott_P said:

    The stench of death is surrounding the Labour Party...

    @theobertram: Based on everything I've seen & heard these last two weeks, publicly & privately, I am no longer optimistic about Labour's long term future.

    @curiusblack: @theobertram @JohnRentoul people saying @DavidLammy would make a good leader

    I suspect no-one has ever seen such a performance on Mastermind:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DsR4Nx-ELgc
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    UKIP the true UK party, elected representatives in all four Home Nations.
    A grand achievement. Quite why they act like such a bunch of basketcases is a mystery.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,871
    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    Germany and France saying Europe must move at different speeds


    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/berlin-und-paris-werben-fuer-europa-verschiedener-geschwindigkeiten-14912622.html

    stupid Dave didnt take the offer

    How much they would truly have committed to that idea before Brexit I have my doubts. Brexit may have been necessary to create the sort of EU that, ironically, more could live with.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,760
    kle4 said:

    Germany and France saying Europe must move at different speeds


    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/berlin-und-paris-werben-fuer-europa-verschiedener-geschwindigkeiten-14912622.html

    stupid Dave didnt take the offer

    How much they would truly have committed to that idea before Brexit I have my doubts. Brexit may have been necessary to create the sort of EU that, ironically, more could live with.
    it is rather ironic

    a EU at your own speed I would have voted for
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,109
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    The bits you agreed with were just as nutty. :)
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,317

    Germany and France saying Europe must move at different speeds


    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/berlin-und-paris-werben-fuer-europa-verschiedener-geschwindigkeiten-14912622.html

    stupid Dave didnt take the offer

    Yes he did. Dave's deal specifically removed us from 'ever greater union'. Sadly, the zealots were too preoccupied being rude about it to notice.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    Scott_P said:

    The stench of death is surrounding the Labour Party...

    @theobertram: Based on everything I've seen & heard these last two weeks, publicly & privately, I am no longer optimistic about Labour's long term future.

    Still too strong to go anywhere.
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    UKIP the true UK party, elected representatives in all four Home Nations.
    The Tories have one NI councillor!
    The mightiest oak grows from the tiniest acorn?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,097

    Bojabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A very good article, and thanks for the tips - your instinct to broadly lay the DUP was correct !

    It is a shame the SDLP, UUP and alliance aren't doing better to be perfectly honest - I do think SF are correct to ask for Arlene Fosters' resignation though.

    The map of Northern Ireland is interesting. There is clear nationalist territory standing between Eire and the unionist seats, with West Belfast looking a bit like West Berlin used to as a sort of nationalist enclave within the unionist part !

    Ha I spotted that too. Hard to see why the western counties of NI remained in the UK when Ireland gained independence – demographic change?
    I think Fermanagh and Tyrone were always majority Catholic - together with southern Armagh, southern Down and western Londonderry.

    It was meant to have been sorted out in the 1920s but wasn't:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Boundary_Commission
    At the 1918 Erection:

    Fermanagh was 53.59% Nationalist, 46.41 Unionist
    Tyrone was 54.60% Nationalist, 45.40 Unionist

    Among the other counties:
    Armagh South was 100% Nationalist
    Londonderry City was 51.50% Nationalist, 48.50 Unionist
    Down South was 59.39% Nationalist, 37.66 Unionist, 2.95 other
    Down East was 57.83% Nationalist, 42.17 Unionist
    Looks like 1918 was a particularly arousing year politically!
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,097
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    Indeed, they make many Kippers look wet
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,760

    Germany and France saying Europe must move at different speeds


    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/berlin-und-paris-werben-fuer-europa-verschiedener-geschwindigkeiten-14912622.html

    stupid Dave didnt take the offer

    Yes he did. Dave's deal specifically removed us from 'ever greater union'. Sadly, the zealots were too preoccupied being rude about it to notice.
    lol

    this is not about zealots its about a PM offering his electorate a bag of shit and telling them its gold

  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,232
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    You knew that they carried that mark upon their flesh.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,364
    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A very good article, and thanks for the tips - your instinct to broadly lay the DUP was correct !

    It is a shame the SDLP, UUP and alliance aren't doing better to be perfectly honest - I do think SF are correct to ask for Arlene Fosters' resignation though.

    The map of Northern Ireland is interesting. There is clear nationalist territory standing between Eire and the unionist seats, with West Belfast looking a bit like West Berlin used to as a sort of nationalist enclave within the unionist part !

    Ha I spotted that too. Hard to see why the western counties of NI remained in the UK when Ireland gained independence – demographic change?
    I think Fermanagh and Tyrone were always majority Catholic - together with southern Armagh, southern Down and western Londonderry.

    It was meant to have been sorted out in the 1920s but wasn't:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Boundary_Commission
    At the 1918 Erection:

    Fermanagh was 53.59% Nationalist, 46.41 Unionist
    Tyrone was 54.60% Nationalist, 45.40 Unionist

    Among the other counties:
    Armagh South was 100% Nationalist
    Londonderry City was 51.50% Nationalist, 48.50 Unionist
    Down South was 59.39% Nationalist, 37.66 Unionist, 2.95 other
    Down East was 57.83% Nationalist, 42.17 Unionist
    Looks like 1918 was a particularly arousing year politically!
    I blame auto-erect :lol:
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,136
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    UKIP the true UK party, elected representatives in all four Home Nations.
    The Tories have one NI councillor!
    He stands ready to lead, if his country calls....
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,364

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Ah, the Treaty of Rome - let's party like it's 1957!!!
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,871

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lucian How did you transfer if I may be so bold to ask ?

    I'm guessing you are a 1) NI Conservatives (If they were in your seat) 2) UUP man, but thereafter ?

    Were I not actively a UUP supporter you would have been right but no. I went the other way round. Without going through the lot I can tell you I voted both Alliance and SDLP quite high.
    There are constituencies where it would be stupid for a Unionist not to transfer to SDLP (I'd far rather have an SDLP MLA than another from SF).
    I have been ranting about transfers today. At stage 2 in the FST count the exceedingly transfer friendly and general nice guy from the SDLP ended up 50 or so votes behind the third SF candidate who I voted 12 of 12 (I put terror sympathisers and naive youngsters ahead of convicted terrorists). There were hundreds of non-transferable votes from the TUV, Con, All, Green and Labour candidates....

    Aaaarrgghhh.



    If I had a vote, I'd always vote SDLP (or PBP) ahead of SF or any Unionist candidate who had paramilitary links. But, you're quite right, Ritchie McPhilips could have got in on Unionist and other transfers. I'm pleased the SDLP made it in East Londonderry and Upper Bann.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,871

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    You knew that they carried that mark upon their flesh.
    Well, I thought everyone knew that.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    How on earth can the betting markets think that François Fillon still has nearly an 18% chance of winning this two-stage gig?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,037
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    Isn't that just a euphemism for Corporate Amex card?
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,364

    What a moron Trump is

    image

    WIll you be trying to sneak in, TSE?

    :lol::lol::lol::lol:
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,109

    How on earth can the betting markets think that François Fillon still has nearly an 18% chance of winning this two-stage gig?

    Hedging for the possibility of a knock-out blow against Macron in the TV debate?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,232
    edited March 2017

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,194

    How on earth can the betting markets think that François Fillon still has nearly an 18% chance of winning this two-stage gig?

    Because he's still polling 19% or so despite all the trouble. If he comes through this he might poll better - I think Pulpstar is right to make the comparison to the generic Republican v Clinton polling in the US.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,097

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    A very good article, and thanks for the tips - your instinct to broadly lay the DUP was correct !

    It is a shame the SDLP, UUP and alliance aren't doing better to be perfectly honest - I do think SF are correct to ask for Arlene Fosters' resignation though.

    The map of Northern Ireland is interesting. There is clear nationalist territory standing between Eire and the unionist seats, with West Belfast looking a bit like West Berlin used to as a sort of nationalist enclave within the unionist part !

    Ha I spotted that too. Hard to see why the western counties of NI remained in the UK when Ireland gained independence – demographic change?
    I think Fermanagh and Tyrone were always majority Catholic - together with southern Armagh, southern Down and western Londonderry.

    It was meant to have been sorted out in the 1920s but wasn't:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Boundary_Commission
    At the 1918 Erection:

    Fermanagh was 53.59% Nationalist, 46.41 Unionist
    Tyrone was 54.60% Nationalist, 45.40 Unionist

    Among the other counties:
    Armagh South was 100% Nationalist
    Londonderry City was 51.50% Nationalist, 48.50 Unionist
    Down South was 59.39% Nationalist, 37.66 Unionist, 2.95 other
    Down East was 57.83% Nationalist, 42.17 Unionist
    Looks like 1918 was a particularly arousing year politically!
    I blame auto-erect :lol:
    Yes, gives me problems too
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,109

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
    Didn't Roy Jenkins call it the Treaty of Woe?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,871

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    I once went to a Free Presbyterian service, and struggled to keep a straight face as we sang "Our fathers knew thee, Rome of old, and evil is thy fame."
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    Scott_P said:

    The stench of death is surrounding the Labour Party...

    @theobertram: Based on everything I've seen & heard these last two weeks, publicly & privately, I am no longer optimistic about Labour's long term future.

    @curiusblack: @theobertram @JohnRentoul people saying @DavidLammy would make a good leader

    Opinion polls see them doing well under a good leader. Union backing, monopolistic support in most cities; they will survive...sadly. Unless another loony follows Corbyn. By 2021, Blair and Clegg and co will reform SDP.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    I once went to a Free Presbyterian service, and struggled to keep a straight face as we sang "Our fathers knew thee, Rome of old, and evil is thy fame."
    Did they also sing 'No more Catholics left'?
  • Options
    BojabobBojabob Posts: 642
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lucian How did you transfer if I may be so bold to ask ?

    I'm guessing you are a 1) NI Conservatives (If they were in your seat) 2) UUP man, but thereafter ?

    Were I not actively a UUP supporter you would have been right but no. I went the other way round. Without going through the lot I can tell you I voted both Alliance and SDLP quite high.
    There are constituencies where it would be stupid for a Unionist not to transfer to SDLP (I'd far rather have an SDLP MLA than another from SF).
    I have been ranting about transfers today. At stage 2 in the FST count the exceedingly transfer friendly and general nice guy from the SDLP ended up 50 or so votes behind the third SF candidate who I voted 12 of 12 (I put terror sympathisers and naive youngsters ahead of convicted terrorists). There were hundreds of non-transferable votes from the TUV, Con, All, Green and Labour candidates....

    Aaaarrgghhh.



    If I had a vote, I'd always vote SDLP (or PBP) ahead of SF or any Unionist candidate who had paramilitary links. But, you're quite right, Ritchie McPhilips could have got in on Unionist and other transfers. I'm pleased the SDLP made it in East Londonderry and Upper Bann.
    The late 1990s marked a brief period of modest success in Northern Ireland for the Progressive Unionist Party – a socialist party that is the political wing of the UVF.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,103

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    But they were also warned by Doctor Who:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u75ArXBMQ5c
  • Options

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
    The Cathedral of Worms is awesome.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,871

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    I once went to a Free Presbyterian service, and struggled to keep a straight face as we sang "Our fathers knew thee, Rome of old, and evil is thy fame."
    Did they also sing 'No more Catholics left'?
    That song hadn't yet been composed (it was 1999),
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,109
    A soundtrack to your evening:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oOZ-fDhzmo
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,232
    Bojabob said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lucian How did you transfer if I may be so bold to ask ?

    I'm guessing you are a 1) NI Conservatives (If they were in your seat) 2) UUP man, but thereafter ?

    Were I not actively a UUP supporter you would have been right but no. I went the other way round. Without going through the lot I can tell you I voted both Alliance and SDLP quite high.
    There are constituencies where it would be stupid for a Unionist not to transfer to SDLP (I'd far rather have an SDLP MLA than another from SF).
    I have been ranting about transfers today. At stage 2 in the FST count the exceedingly transfer friendly and general nice guy from the SDLP ended up 50 or so votes behind the third SF candidate who I voted 12 of 12 (I put terror sympathisers and naive youngsters ahead of convicted terrorists). There were hundreds of non-transferable votes from the TUV, Con, All, Green and Labour candidates....

    Aaaarrgghhh.



    If I had a vote, I'd always vote SDLP (or PBP) ahead of SF or any Unionist candidate who had paramilitary links. But, you're quite right, Ritchie McPhilips could have got in on Unionist and other transfers. I'm pleased the SDLP made it in East Londonderry and Upper Bann.
    The late 1990s marked a brief period of modest success in Northern Ireland for the Progressive Unionist Party – a socialist party that is the political wing of the UVF.
    Had a lot of time for David Ervine, tragic that he died prematurely.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited March 2017
    tlg86 said:

    Because he's still polling 19% or so despite all the trouble. If he comes through this he might poll better - I think Pulpstar is right to make the comparison to the generic Republican v Clinton polling in the US.

    It's true that some of the Les Républican rats who jumped off his ship in droves seem to be scrabbling back on board, presumably because there's no other vessel in sight.

    Le Figaro has just published this rather good account of the to-ing and fro-ing:

    http://www.lefigaro.fr/elections/presidentielles/2017/03/06/35003-20170306ARTFIG00315-fillon-impose-sa-candidature-a-la-droite.php

    Even so...
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,232
    SeanT said:

    Is that THE Ben Machell "columnist for the Times and Evening Standard"?

    Some hefty commentary there

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/profile/Ben-Machell
    Fck knows.
    He's spot on about wee Dan though.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,037
    SeanT said:

    Germany and France saying Europe must move at different speeds


    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/berlin-und-paris-werben-fuer-europa-verschiedener-geschwindigkeiten-14912622.html

    stupid Dave didnt take the offer

    Yes he did. Dave's deal specifically removed us from 'ever greater union'. Sadly, the zealots were too preoccupied being rude about it to notice.
    If the EU reforms NOW it will be BECAUSE of Brexit. Tho I have serious doubts that it will, we're on an economic upswing, the desire for reform within the EU is minimal, the innate tendency is towards greater integration anyway (as that's in the the EU's DNA). Instead the EU will bumble on towards Federation, without ever going fast enough to save the failing periphery.

    Cameron's demands and renegotiations were literally worthless. He knew it, they knew it, it was a pretendy charade. Trouble is, when he came back and told the people about his "deal", that's when everyone knew it.

    Cameron blew it. A horribly overrated wanker, a man who overrated himself, most of all. Thus: his disgrace.
    Most people in Europe, when they talk of reform of the EU, mean greater integration. They propose reforming the democratic deficit, not returning powers to member states.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,009

    SeanT said:

    Is that THE Ben Machell "columnist for the Times and Evening Standard"?

    Some hefty commentary there

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/profile/Ben-Machell
    Fck knows.
    He's spot on about wee Dan though.
    Yep it is. Following the link was all you needed to do...
  • Options

    Bojabob said:

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lucian How did you transfer if I may be so bold to ask ?

    I'm guessing you are a 1) NI Conservatives (If they were in your seat) 2) UUP man, but thereafter ?

    Were I not actively a UUP supporter you would have been right but no. I went the other way round. Without going through the lot I can tell you I voted both Alliance and SDLP quite high.
    There are constituencies where it would be stupid for a Unionist not to transfer to SDLP (I'd far rather have an SDLP MLA than another from SF).
    I have been ranting about transfers today. At stage 2 in the FST count the exceedingly transfer friendly and general nice guy from the SDLP ended up 50 or so votes behind the third SF candidate who I voted 12 of 12 (I put terror sympathisers and naive youngsters ahead of convicted terrorists). There were hundreds of non-transferable votes from the TUV, Con, All, Green and Labour candidates....

    Aaaarrgghhh.



    If I had a vote, I'd always vote SDLP (or PBP) ahead of SF or any Unionist candidate who had paramilitary links. But, you're quite right, Ritchie McPhilips could have got in on Unionist and other transfers. I'm pleased the SDLP made it in East Londonderry and Upper Bann.
    The late 1990s marked a brief period of modest success in Northern Ireland for the Progressive Unionist Party – a socialist party that is the political wing of the UVF.
    Had a lot of time for David Ervine, tragic that he died prematurely.
    Indeed, read a fascinating long article biography about Ervine and Gusty Spence.

    Truly remarkable people.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited March 2017
    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    The stench of death is surrounding the Labour Party...

    @theobertram: Based on everything I've seen & heard these last two weeks, publicly & privately, I am no longer optimistic about Labour's long term future.

    @curiusblack: @theobertram @JohnRentoul people saying @DavidLammy would make a good leader

    I suspect no-one has ever seen such a performance on Mastermind:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DsR4Nx-ELgc
    you could imagine (or not) Lammy as PM being asked questions at PMQ's with the inevitable answer of "Pass"
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,037
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 25,009
    edited March 2017
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Lucian How did you transfer if I may be so bold to ask ?

    I'm guessing you are a 1) NI Conservatives (If they were in your seat) 2) UUP man, but thereafter ?

    Were I not actively a UUP supporter you would have been right but no. I went the other way round. Without going through the lot I can tell you I voted both Alliance and SDLP quite high.
    There are constituencies where it would be stupid for a Unionist not to transfer to SDLP (I'd far rather have an SDLP MLA than another from SF).
    I have been ranting about transfers today. At stage 2 in the FST count the exceedingly transfer friendly and general nice guy from the SDLP ended up 50 or so votes behind the third SF candidate who I voted 12 of 12 (I put terror sympathisers and naive youngsters ahead of convicted terrorists). There were hundreds of non-transferable votes from the TUV, Con, All, Green and Labour candidates....

    Aaaarrgghhh.



    If I had a vote, I'd always vote SDLP (or PBP) ahead of SF or any Unionist candidate who had paramilitary links. But, you're quite right, Ritchie McPhilips could have got in on Unionist and other transfers. I'm pleased the SDLP made it in East Londonderry and Upper Bann.
    If I had a vote I really don't know how I would have voted. You're right in that you can't really vote for Sinn Fein but I equally couldn't (even though I'm protestant) vote for the DUP given the current disaster....

    But as posted above the real issue is the number of people who don't understand that on a transferable vote system you really do need to rank all candidates in order as shown by the result above it really does matter....
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    rcs1000 said:

    SeanT said:

    Germany and France saying Europe must move at different speeds


    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/berlin-und-paris-werben-fuer-europa-verschiedener-geschwindigkeiten-14912622.html

    stupid Dave didnt take the offer

    Yes he did. Dave's deal specifically removed us from 'ever greater union'. Sadly, the zealots were too preoccupied being rude about it to notice.
    If the EU reforms NOW it will be BECAUSE of Brexit. Tho I have serious doubts that it will, we're on an economic upswing, the desire for reform within the EU is minimal, the innate tendency is towards greater integration anyway (as that's in the the EU's DNA). Instead the EU will bumble on towards Federation, without ever going fast enough to save the failing periphery.

    Cameron's demands and renegotiations were literally worthless. He knew it, they knew it, it was a pretendy charade. Trouble is, when he came back and told the people about his "deal", that's when everyone knew it.

    Cameron blew it. A horribly overrated wanker, a man who overrated himself, most of all. Thus: his disgrace.
    Most people in Europe, when they talk of reform of the EU, mean greater integration. They propose reforming the democratic deficit, not returning powers to member states.
    I think there is a huge difference between the elite vision of what you describe vs the people's expectations which is mostly for a looser arrangement and returning power to national legislature.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,960

    How on earth can the betting markets think that François Fillon still has nearly an 18% chance of winning this two-stage gig?

    I note he has come in and Baroin has drifted
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,364

    Sad!

    //twitter.com/ben_machell/status/838688527290368000

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sunil060902/sandbox
  • Options
    PlankPlank Posts: 71
    The article states that the research might allow farmers to delay breeding. Not normally a problem as sheep cycle for such a long period it is simple to introduce the ram later in the year. The usual challenge is to start them cycling (ovulating) early as the first lambs to market in the spring get the highest prices, even if it means buying more feed to supplement the grass. One method is to insert progesterone soaked sponges, like tampons, into the ewes. After two weeks remove them and inject the ewe with PMSG, pregnant horse wee in layman's speak. The sheep start to cycle about two days later. Of course this being a modern scientific age powdered horse wee is available to be reconstituted before use.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
    The Cathedral of Worms is awesome.
    Top five best cathedrals in the world, reverse order


    5. Notre Dame, Paris, France
    4. St Basil's, Moscow, Russia
    3. St Peter's, Rome, Italy
    2. Blessed Mary and Cuthbert, Durham, England
    1. THE LOST CATHEDRAL OF BATOPILAS, THE COPPER CANYON, MEXICO

    Beat that, PB. I've seen 'em all. And I've been to THE LOST CATHEDRAL. We had to fly out (literally, by private plane).

    And at how many did you contribute to the running costs so that others less successful than you can enjoy them in future generations?
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Saw this posted on Facebook. Quite pithy....

    Grammar - The difference between knowing your shit and knowing you're shit.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Plank said:

    The article states that the research might allow farmers to delay breeding. Not normally a problem as sheep cycle for such a long period it is simple to introduce the ram later in the year. The usual challenge is to start them cycling (ovulating) early as the first lambs to market in the spring get the highest prices, even if it means buying more feed to supplement the grass. One method is to insert progesterone soaked sponges, like tampons, into the ewes. After two weeks remove them and inject the ewe with PMSG, pregnant horse wee in layman's speak. The sheep start to cycle about two days later. Of course this being a modern scientific age powdered horse wee is available to be reconstituted before use.
    The other day someone tried to persuade me to invest in a company making pessaries for mice. ..
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,364
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
    The Cathedral of Worms is awesome.
    Top five best cathedrals in the world, reverse order


    5. Notre Dame, Paris, France
    4. St Basil's, Moscow, Russia
    3. St Peter's, Rome, Italy
    2. Blessed Mary and Cuthbert, Durham, England
    1. THE LOST CATHEDRAL OF BATOPILAS, THE COPPER CANYON, MEXICO

    Beat that, PB. I've seen 'em all. And I've been to THE LOST CATHEDRAL. We had to fly out (literally, by private plane).

    [swaggering] Have you visited the nearly 700 train, tube and tram stations in the London Oystercard area?

    Have you? Ha!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited March 2017
    SeanT said:

    Germany and France saying Europe must move at different speeds


    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/berlin-und-paris-werben-fuer-europa-verschiedener-geschwindigkeiten-14912622.html

    stupid Dave didnt take the offer

    Yes he did. Dave's deal specifically removed us from 'ever greater union'. Sadly, the zealots were too preoccupied being rude about it to notice.
    If the EU reforms NOW it will be BECAUSE of Brexit. Tho I have serious doubts that it will, we're on an economic upswing, the desire for reform within the EU is minimal, the innate tendency is towards greater integration anyway (as that's in the the EU's DNA). Instead the EU will bumble on towards Federation, without ever going fast enough to save the failing periphery.

    Cameron's demands and renegotiations were literally worthless. He knew it, they knew it, it was a pretendy charade. Trouble is, when he came back and told the people about his "deal", that's when everyone knew it.

    Cameron blew it. A horribly overrated wanker, a man who overrated himself, most of all. Thus: his disgrace.
    If you watched the BBC programme a few weeks back...the EU officials want reform, by reform they mean ever closer union, EU army, etc etc etc. That is what they said on the record.

    Because at the moment in their minds the EU isn't a proper union yet and that is what is causing all the problems in places like Greece and Italy.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
    The Cathedral of Worms is awesome.
    Top five best cathedrals in the world, reverse order


    5. Notre Dame, Paris, France
    4. St Basil's, Moscow, Russia
    3. St Peter's, Rome, Italy
    2. Blessed Mary and Cuthbert, Durham, England
    1. THE LOST CATHEDRAL OF BATOPILAS, THE COPPER CANYON, MEXICO

    Beat that, PB. I've seen 'em all. And I've been to THE LOST CATHEDRAL. We had to fly out (literally, by private plane).

    Just to be an insufferable twat, St Peter's ain't no cathedral (St John Lateran is).

    Reims is pretty cool.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
    The Cathedral of Worms is awesome.
    Top five best cathedrals in the world, reverse order


    5. Notre Dame, Paris, France
    4. St Basil's, Moscow, Russia
    3. St Peter's, Rome, Italy
    2. Blessed Mary and Cuthbert, Durham, England
    1. THE LOST CATHEDRAL OF BATOPILAS, THE COPPER CANYON, MEXICO

    Beat that, PB. I've seen 'em all. And I've been to THE LOST CATHEDRAL. We had to fly out (literally, by private plane).

    [swaggering] Have you visited the nearly 700 train, tube and tram stations in the London Oystercard area?

    Have you? Ha!
    Do you have a ranked list? :D
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898
    edited March 2017
    Charles said:

    Plank said:

    The article states that the research might allow farmers to delay breeding. Not normally a problem as sheep cycle for such a long period it is simple to introduce the ram later in the year. The usual challenge is to start them cycling (ovulating) early as the first lambs to market in the spring get the highest prices, even if it means buying more feed to supplement the grass. One method is to insert progesterone soaked sponges, like tampons, into the ewes. After two weeks remove them and inject the ewe with PMSG, pregnant horse wee in layman's speak. The sheep start to cycle about two days later. Of course this being a modern scientific age powdered horse wee is available to be reconstituted before use.
    The other day someone tried to persuade me to invest in a company making pessaries for mice. ..
    Well don't keep us in suspense - how much did you invest with them?

    And now pessary is a word in my vocabulary.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,364
    RobD said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
    The Cathedral of Worms is awesome.
    Top five best cathedrals in the world, reverse order


    5. Notre Dame, Paris, France
    4. St Basil's, Moscow, Russia
    3. St Peter's, Rome, Italy
    2. Blessed Mary and Cuthbert, Durham, England
    1. THE LOST CATHEDRAL OF BATOPILAS, THE COPPER CANYON, MEXICO

    Beat that, PB. I've seen 'em all. And I've been to THE LOST CATHEDRAL. We had to fly out (literally, by private plane).

    [swaggering] Have you visited the nearly 700 train, tube and tram stations in the London Oystercard area?

    Have you? Ha!
    Do you have a ranked list? :D
    St Pancras is the best ;)
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @michaelsavage: Wow - William Hague making the strong case for an early election feels like a bit of a moment.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited March 2017
    kle4 said:

    Charles said:

    Plank said:

    The article states that the research might allow farmers to delay breeding. Not normally a problem as sheep cycle for such a long period it is simple to introduce the ram later in the year. The usual challenge is to start them cycling (ovulating) early as the first lambs to market in the spring get the highest prices, even if it means buying more feed to supplement the grass. One method is to insert progesterone soaked sponges, like tampons, into the ewes. After two weeks remove them and inject the ewe with PMSG, pregnant horse wee in layman's speak. The sheep start to cycle about two days later. Of course this being a modern scientific age powdered horse wee is available to be reconstituted before use.
    The other day someone tried to persuade me to invest in a company making pessaries for mice. ..
    Well don't keep us in suspense - how much did you invest with them?

    And now pessary is a word in my vocabulary.
    I didn't - yet - but I am tempted. Idea is to improve the fertility of therapeutic model mice so you can reduce the number needed to be kept for clinical trials.

    Ps on PB every day's a schoolday :wink:
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Scott_P said:

    @michaelsavage: Wow - William Hague making the strong case for an early election feels like a bit of a moment.

    I would appreciate if they didn't....I have a lot of work on over the next few months, and a month of Jahadi Jez making a berk of himself on a daily basis won't do a lot for my productivity levels.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,109
    RobD said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
    The Cathedral of Worms is awesome.
    Top five best cathedrals in the world, reverse order


    5. Notre Dame, Paris, France
    4. St Basil's, Moscow, Russia
    3. St Peter's, Rome, Italy
    2. Blessed Mary and Cuthbert, Durham, England
    1. THE LOST CATHEDRAL OF BATOPILAS, THE COPPER CANYON, MEXICO

    Beat that, PB. I've seen 'em all. And I've been to THE LOST CATHEDRAL. We had to fly out (literally, by private plane).

    [swaggering] Have you visited the nearly 700 train, tube and tram stations in the London Oystercard area?

    Have you? Ha!
    Do you have a ranked list? :D
    That would only make sense for the Moscow Metro. My list:

    5. Kievskaya
    4. Ploshchad Revolyutsii
    3. Komsomolskaya
    2. Mayakovskaya
    1. Novoslobodskaya
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,918
    SeanT said:

    Indeed. And that is the fundamental, unreformable flaw in the EU. Language and people. There literally CANNOT be a European demos, able and willing to hold the European elite to account - telling them to integrate or devolve. There is no shared public space, no fervent and widely read EU media, no agreed social space, there is no essential European newspaper, broadcaster, radio station, no European forum and piazza where we can come together to debate and discuss.

    We speak 98 different languages, FFS.

    Clarke's first law
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,136
    SeanT said:



    Indeed. And that is the fundamental, unreformable flaw in the EU. Language and people. There literally CANNOT be a European demos, able and willing to hold the European elite to account - telling them to integrate or devolve. There is no shared public space, no fervent and widely read EU media, no agreed social space, there is no essential European newspaper, broadcaster, radio station, no European forum and piazza where we can come together to debate and discuss.

    We speak 98 different languages, FFS.

    This means European debate is dominated by a multingual elite, with a tendency towards liberal Franco-German views, as the elite is English-speaking (as a second language), but comes from Paris and Berlin.

    Yer average Italian, Portuguese, Greek, Slovenian, hasn't got a look in,

    So when public European opinion is "sensed" it is ALWAYS and conveniently what this europhile elite believes: more Europe! As that is the river in which they swim, and they all agree on the route to the sea.

    And the UK has just thrown them an anvil.

    I don't know how they propose to fund this more Europe, when the second largest contributor has gone walk about. You'd think THAT might require an emergency budget and a huge trimming of expenditures. But no. They must assume that Germany is going to meet the shortfall. Bold.

    And if the Euro-teat runs dry? What is the attraction for the Greeks, the Italians, the Portuguese to stay in if the Euro-largess is a fraction of what it was?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,136
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
    The Cathedral of Worms is awesome.
    Top five best cathedrals in the world, reverse order


    5. Notre Dame, Paris, France
    4. St Basil's, Moscow, Russia
    3. St Peter's, Rome, Italy
    2. Blessed Mary and Cuthbert, Durham, England
    1. THE LOST CATHEDRAL OF BATOPILAS, THE COPPER CANYON, MEXICO

    Beat that, PB. I've seen 'em all. And I've been to THE LOST CATHEDRAL. We had to fly out (literally, by private plane).

    Can't argue with that list, although an honourable mention to Iona Abbey for its overwhelming power of something religious going on...
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited March 2017
    "We have begun our tea offensive." - John McDonnell

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39188070
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,136

    "We have begun our tea offensive." - John McDonnell

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39188070

    "The biggest fear the Tories have is a united Labour Party," a source close to Mr McDonnell said.

    Not if it is united around Corbyn, my old china....
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,898

    "We have begun our tea offensive." - John McDonnell

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39188070

    "The biggest fear the Tories have is a united Labour Party," a source close to Mr McDonnell said.

    Not if it is united around Corbyn, my old china....
    Well, quite. I guess it's good he's dialing back on the conspiracy theorist ramblings, and I imagine they would be doing a bit better if they were truly united, but it falls in to the same trap as praising a politician who is principled.

    Someone being principled is of marginal benefit if their principles range from abhorrent to merely unpopular (in fairness to Corbyn and co, some of theirs will also happen to be popular), and people may like a unified party, but if it is unified round the wrong things, you still won't win with enough people solely because you are unified.

    Additionally, there may still be more than unites than divides them (although frankly I doubt that, the intensity of dislike between some factions, particularly in Labour at the moment but not exclusively with them, is so strong I think many would be better off leaving their tribes), but very serious ideological differences on top of any concerns about effectiveness cannot be wished away just because you pretend to ignore them for the sake of unity. All that gets you is a bunch of people after an election saying 'yeah, I knew we'd lose if we did that, but for the sake of loyalty I lied to peoples' faces'.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,918

    "We have begun our tea offensive." - John McDonnell

    Victory? Master McDonnell-Wan, a victory you say? [shakes head sadly]. Begun, the tea offensive has...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dylqDO4uEXc
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,352
    SeanT said:



    There is no shared public space, no fervent and widely read EU media, no agreed social space, there is no essential European newspaper, broadcaster, radio station, no European forum and piazza where we can come together to debate and discuss.

    Nor there is in the United States. They have a common language, some fairly popular TV channels, and that's it. Newspapers are nearly all regional (USA Today is not the general medium that it would like to be), no TV or radio station that everyone follows, no US-wide forum or piazza. And that's AFTER 240 YEARS of being a single country.

    Moreover, arguably unlike the USA, small states in the EU are generally more pro-federalist than the big ones. Ask a Brit or a Frenchman and he'll usually look a bit dubious about the EU. Ask a Dane, a Belgian, a Spaniard, a Latvian, even a Greek, and they'll usually tell you that membership is an excellent thing: that's why even now Greece doesn't want to leave the Euro. That's because the big countries know they could manage after a fashion alone. The small countries, not so much.

    It's a country in development, and it will in time largely determine the direction of Europe. At some point, we will probably decide to shuffle back in.

  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Bojabob said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - Theresa May seems to fancy her party as the unionists of last resort. Perhaps if she means what she says about 'one people' she should break with the past and start campaigning in NI.

    The Tories do field candidates in the Northern Ireland. Unfortunately the NI Tory Surge Klaxon has yet to be heard.
    Yes, beaten by UKIP in the last GE.
    The Tories are closer to the UUP, UKIP the DUP and it is the latter which is the loudest voice in current Unionism
    Yes the DUP are a hard-right grouping that entertain some pretty choice views well beyond their constitutional principles.
    Yes, they are the Kippers of Ulster
    I once went to a hear William Mcrea give a speech on the EU. I agreed with quite a lot of it, until he claimed EU civil servants carried the Mark of the Beast in their wallets.
    A few years ago, a history teacher acquaintance of mine speculated the reason for the DUP's hatred of the EU was because virulent anti-Papist views.

    If only the Treaty of Rome had been signed in say Paris or Bonn, the DUP would have been pro-EU.
    Or Worms.
    Farage and co would love to describe it as the Treaty of worms.
    The Cathedral of Worms is awesome.
    Top five best cathedrals in the world, reverse order


    5. Notre Dame, Paris, France
    4. St Basil's, Moscow, Russia
    3. St Peter's, Rome, Italy
    2. Blessed Mary and Cuthbert, Durham, England
    1. THE LOST CATHEDRAL OF BATOPILAS, THE COPPER CANYON, MEXICO

    Beat that, PB. I've seen 'em all. And I've been to THE LOST CATHEDRAL. We had to fly out (literally, by private plane).

    Can't argue with that list, although an honourable mention to Iona Abbey for its overwhelming power of something religious going on...
    I enjoyed St Isaac's Cathedral in St Petersburg. Sadly the Russian government has decided to play silly buggers with it.
  • Options
    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    Fillon is becoming a point of ridicule now with what looks like desperate and deliberate attempts to imitate trump tactics.

    Macron V Le Pen a cert in round two because Hamon and Mélenchon basically ensured that neither one gets any coverage, they are also-rans. So more PS voters for Macron to mop up.

    I think Macron can beat Le Pen, but there's something very flimsy about his whole campaign, seems soft. Le Pen will have some very strong campaign themes to run against him, and will do better than expected (I've long thought she would beat Fillon but narrowly lose to Macron).
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    kle4 said:

    "We have begun our tea offensive." - John McDonnell

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39188070

    "The biggest fear the Tories have is a united Labour Party," a source close to Mr McDonnell said.

    Not if it is united around Corbyn, my old china....
    Well, quite. I guess it's good he's dialing back on the conspiracy theorist ramblings, and I imagine they would be doing a bit better if they were truly united, but it falls in to the same trap as praising a politician who is principled.

    Someone being principled is of marginal benefit if their principles range from abhorrent to merely unpopular (in fairness to Corbyn and co, some of theirs will also happen to be popular), and people may like a unified party, but if it is unified round the wrong things, you still won't win with enough people solely because you are unified.

    Additionally, there may still be more than unites than divides them (although frankly I doubt that, the intensity of dislike between some factions, particularly in Labour at the moment but not exclusively with them, is so strong I think many would be better off leaving their tribes), but very serious ideological differences on top of any concerns about effectiveness cannot be wished away just because you pretend to ignore them for the sake of unity. All that gets you is a bunch of people after an election saying 'yeah, I knew we'd lose if we did that, but for the sake of loyalty I lied to peoples' faces'.
    FPTP Keeps the blues and reds together nothing else PR would make sure new alignments take place.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,918

    I don't know how they propose to fund this more Europe, when the second largest contributor has gone walk about. You'd think THAT might require an emergency budget and a huge trimming of expenditures.

    I should imagine they are going to fund it the same way Trump is going to fund his presidency, Japan is funding its spending, and the UK is going to fund fuck knows what: increase spending, lower taxes, devalue the currency and let inflation take off.

    Irresponsible government, deficit spending, competitive devaluation is the new black, and all the fashionable countries are wearing it this season.

  • Options
    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819

    SeanT said:



    There is no shared public space, no fervent and widely read EU media, no agreed social space, there is no essential European newspaper, broadcaster, radio station, no European forum and piazza where we can come together to debate and discuss.

    Nor there is in the United States. They have a common language, some fairly popular TV channels, and that's it. Newspapers are nearly all regional (USA Today is not the general medium that it would like to be), no TV or radio station that everyone follows, no US-wide forum or piazza. And that's AFTER 240 YEARS of being a single country.

    Moreover, arguably unlike the USA, small states in the EU are generally more pro-federalist than the big ones. Ask a Brit or a Frenchman and he'll usually look a bit dubious about the EU. Ask a Dane, a Belgian, a Spaniard, a Latvian, even a Greek, and they'll usually tell you that membership is an excellent thing: that's why even now Greece doesn't want to leave the Euro. That's because the big countries know they could manage after a fashion alone. The small countries, not so much.

    It's a country in development, and it will in time largely determine the direction of Europe. At some point, we will probably decide to shuffle back in.

    Do you think we would be allowed back in? If the EU ever did get towards a point where it was approaching a federal state, letting us back in could be a big risk.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,109
    viewcode said:

    I don't know how they propose to fund this more Europe, when the second largest contributor has gone walk about. You'd think THAT might require an emergency budget and a huge trimming of expenditures.

    I should imagine they are going to fund it the same way Trump is going to fund his presidency, Japan is funding its spending, and the UK is going to fund fuck knows what: increase spending, lower taxes, devalue the currency and let inflation take off.
    By meeting the NATO defence spending commitment but channelling it through the EU you would increase the EU budget by 200% *and* allow it to do more of the things people want to see like securing external borders. Plus, you would have a covert mechanism to do fiscal transfers without compromising the design of the Euro.
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711

    Fillon is becoming a point of ridicule now with what looks like desperate and deliberate attempts to imitate trump tactics.

    Macron V Le Pen a cert in round two because Hamon and Mélenchon basically ensured that neither one gets any coverage, they are also-rans. So more PS voters for Macron to mop up.

    I think Macron can beat Le Pen, but there's something very flimsy about his whole campaign, seems soft. Le Pen will have some very strong campaign themes to run against him, and will do better than expected (I've long thought she would beat Fillon but narrowly lose to Macron).

    Pretty much agree with that. If Fillon had done the honourable thing and stepped down, then, if his protestations of innocence were well founded and he was cleared, then he would have had a very strong run for the next Presidency.

    As it is, if he allows the contest to become Le Pen v Macron, then his political future is in tatters. He will be lambasted by his own Party, even more so if it leads to a surprise Le Pen victory.
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