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  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    FF43 said:

    SeanT said:



    Like it or not, Remoaner is here to stay. When a word is used and instantly understood, without inverted commas, in papers as diverse as the Sun, the FT, and the Spectator, then it is headed for the Oxford English Dictionary

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2968384/theresa-may-must-warn-brits-she-will-have-to-make-major-compromises-during-brexit-talks-or-risk-bitterly-disappointing-voters-sir-john-major-says/

    https://www.ft.com/content/0c7fb7ce-f2e5-11e6-95ee-f14e55513608

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/sorry-remoaners-british-peso-way-back/

    It certainly has currency but I'm not sure Remoaner will stay. Some supporters of independence for Scotland use "Yoon" to delegitimise supporters of the UK Union, but the term's dying out now.
    It wasn't until seeing it a few times that I actually twigged what Yoon meant. Whatever its other merits or demerits, Remoaner immediately makes sense.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Mr. T, congrats to your daughter, hope she has a splendid time.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    edited March 2017

    FF43 said:

    Just on language - certain shorthand terms also can be used to signify membership of groups (a Remain voter won't use the term 'Remoaner' very often). That will affect how seriously a message is taken, as well as alienating certain groups. So, you end up fragmenting political groups by vocabulary, which means people are literally speaking different language.

    Political correctness can be used as a pejorative to mean the censorship of speech and actions that are perfectly reasonable but not line with an orthodox consensus, or as a term for ensuring bigoted speech isn't tolerated. In short, it's such a broad term it's essentially meaningless and any meaning it does have is determined by the speaker, and listener, and there could be a vast yawning chasm between them.

    That can make it hard to effectively communicate because a simple phrase everyone knows can mean wildly different things.

    /thisisanimportantpointandI'mdefinitelynotprocrastinating

    And that's without getting into devaluing terms like 'Nazi' or 'fascist' by overusing them. Like over-prescribing antibiotics, the racism card is not as powerful as it was because it was thrown at those with genuine concerns over migration.

    /ramblingforever

    The purpose of terms like Remoaner is to deligitimise a group of people for what they believe. To other* them. It's not simply, or mainly, a categorical description

    * Is "other" in the OED as a verb? It should be.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/other

    Others might view 'Remoaners' as those who seek to delegitimise the result of a democratic referendum.....in contrast to Remainers who accept the result.

    How would you characterise 'Brexitard'?
    Somebody who cares only about exiting, and responds aggressively to any potential issues regardless of whether they have any worth. I do think Remoaner and Remainer have their place - Cyclefree and MorrisDancer proposed some alternatives the other day, but it was a bit chaucerian for me.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,971
    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Just on language - certain shorthand terms also can be used to signify membership of groups (a Remain voter won't use the term 'Remoaner' very often). That will affect how seriously a message is taken, as well as alienating certain groups. So, you end up fragmenting political groups by vocabulary, which means people are literally speaking different language.

    Political correctness can be used as a pejorative to mean the censorship of speech and actions that are perfectly reasonable but not line with an orthodox consensus, or as a term for ensuring bigoted speech isn't tolerated. In short, it's such a broad term it's essentially meaningless and any meaning it does have is determined by the speaker, and listener, and there could be a vast yawning chasm between them.

    That can make it hard to effectively communicate because a simple phrase everyone knows can mean wildly different things.

    /thisisanimportantpointandI'mdefinitelynotprocrastinating

    And that's without getting into devaluing terms like 'Nazi' or 'fascist' by overusing them. Like over-prescribing antibiotics, the racism card is not as powerful as it was because it was thrown at those with genuine concerns over migration.

    /ramblingforever

    The purpose of terms like Remoaner is to deligitimise a group of people for what they believe. To other* them. It's not simply, or mainly, a categorical description

    * Is "other" in the OED as a verb? It should be.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/other

    Others might view 'Remoaners' as those who seek to delegitimise the result of a democratic referendum.....in contrast to Remainers who accept the result.

    How would you characterise 'Brexitard'?
    Somebody who cares only about exiting, and responds aggressively to any potential issues regardless of whether they have any worth.
    Why do people take offence at "leftard" then?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited March 2017
    Roger said:

    The government Minister said no guarantees could be given. I found it very ugly and unpleasant. It reminded me of Tories of old. This next few years isn't going to be pretty and not because of currency fluctuations.

    Your prejudices are well known here, so we won't be in the least surprised that you find the government 'ugly and unpleasant', but haven't got a single word of criticism of the 27 EU countries which have so far not only refused to give any guarantees about the rights of UK citizens living in their countries, but have also refused point blank to discuss the issue in advance of formal invocation of Article 50, as the wicked Tory government suggested, and also have refused to prioritise discussion of the issue after Article 50 has been triggered.

    The moral high ground is unambiguously on one side in this, and it ain't the EU27 side.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    edited March 2017
    Bojabob said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    It's very alarming watching the Lords debate. They seem terrifyingly naive about how negotiations work - you don't give anything away without a concession.

    Lord Hailsham raised Idi Amin's expulsion of the Asians! Sensationalist, irrelevant and utterly irresponsible.

    I agree the expulsion of the East African Asians was sensationalist, irrelevant (to solving Uganda's problems) and utterly irresponsible.

    Douglas Hailsham is very close to John Major, and went utterly native in the foreign office.
    It will be a sad day in the circus when the language of the political schoolyard ends up in the OED.
    The purpose of the OED (or any good dictionary) is to record language as it is used, not, like the Academie Francais who opine on how language should be used (with very limited success - le jumbo jet well outlived 'le gros porteur')

    As Dr Johnson lexicographer (harmless drudge) of our first dictionary wisely observed you'd might as well try to bind the sea in chains as control how language is used....
    They are but fleeting, these political insults.
    So was Tory, which was an insult. Puritan was an insult too. And Quaker (well, it is not objected to by all, but it was about ridiculing them). They probably seemed fleeting once, but they lasted.

    Insults specifying particular subsets within a political view have a place, and if they resonate may become wider used and morph into more general usage in time.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Mr. Dixie, huzzah at the thought of that!

    I do dislike the 'Brex-' prefix. It's just ugly.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116

    The moral high ground is unambiguously on one side in this, and it ain't the EU27 side.

    Have the EU27 said that Brexit means we can't stay in the single market? Please show us the relevant quotes.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    kle4 said:

    Bojabob said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    It's very alarming watching the Lords debate. They seem terrifyingly naive about how negotiations work - you don't give anything away without a concession.

    Lord Hailsham raised Idi Amin's expulsion of the Asians! Sensationalist, irrelevant and utterly irresponsible.

    I agree the expulsion of the East African Asians was sensationalist, irrelevant (to solving Uganda's problems) and utterly irresponsible.

    Douglas Hailsham is very close to John Major, and went utterly native in the foreign office.
    It will be a sad day in the circus when the language of the political schoolyard ends up in the OED.
    The purpose of the OED (or any good dictionary) is to record language as it is used, not, like the Academie Francais who opine on how language should be used (with very limited success - le jumbo jet well outlived 'le gros porteur')

    As Dr Johnson lexicographer (harmless drudge) of our first dictionary wisely observed you'd might as well try to bind the sea in chains as control how language is used....
    They are but fleeting, these political insults.
    So was Tory, which was an insult. Puritan was an insult too. And Quaker (well, it is not objected to by all, but it was about ridiculing them). They probably seemed fleeting once, but they lasted.
    So was Prime Minister.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Just on language - certain shorthand terms also can be used to signify membership of groups (a Remain voter won't use the term 'Remoaner' very often). That will affect how seriously a message is taken, as well as alienating certain groups. So, you end up fragmenting political groups by vocabulary, which means people are literally speaking different language.

    Political correctness can be used as a pejorative to mean the censorship of speech and actions that are perfectly reasonable but not line with an orthodox consensus, or as a term for ensuring bigoted speech isn't tolerated. In short, it's such a broad term it's essentially meaningless and any meaning it does have is determined by the speaker, and listener, and there could be a vast yawning chasm between them.

    That can make it hard to effectively communicate because a simple phrase everyone knows can mean wildly different things.

    /thisisanimportantpointandI'mdefinitelynotprocrastinating

    And that's without getting into devaluing terms like 'Nazi' or 'fascist' by overusing them. Like over-prescribing antibiotics, the racism card is not as powerful as it was because it was thrown at those with genuine concerns over migration.

    /ramblingforever

    The purpose of terms like Remoaner is to deligitimise a group of people for what they believe. To other* them. It's not simply, or mainly, a categorical description

    * Is "other" in the OED as a verb? It should be.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/other

    Others might view 'Remoaners' as those who seek to delegitimise the result of a democratic referendum.....in contrast to Remainers who accept the result.

    How would you characterise 'Brexitard'?
    Somebody who cares only about exiting, and responds aggressively to any potential issues regardless of whether they have any worth.
    Why do people take offence at "leftard" then?
    I imagine people would take offence at my use of Brexitard too, for the same reason - ridiculing a particular group, and the connection with retard as well. I would not actually use that one myself, but that is how I might define it, or a term encompassing the same feeling.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Just on language - certain shorthand terms also can be used to signify membership of groups (a Remain voter won't use the term 'Remoaner' very often). That will affect how seriously a message is taken, as well as alienating certain groups. So, you end up fragmenting political groups by vocabulary, which means people are literally speaking different language.

    Political correctness can be used as a pejorative to mean the censorship of speech and actions that are perfectly reasonable but not line with an orthodox consensus, or as a term for ensuring bigoted speech isn't tolerated. In short, it's such a broad term it's essentially meaningless and any meaning it does have is determined by the speaker, and listener, and there could be a vast yawning chasm between them.

    That can make it hard to effectively communicate because a simple phrase everyone knows can mean wildly different things.

    /thisisanimportantpointandI'mdefinitelynotprocrastinating

    And that's without getting into devaluing terms like 'Nazi' or 'fascist' by overusing them. Like over-prescribing antibiotics, the racism card is not as powerful as it was because it was thrown at those with genuine concerns over migration.

    /ramblingforever

    The purpose of terms like Remoaner is to deligitimise a group of people for what they believe. To other* them. It's not simply, or mainly, a categorical description

    * Is "other" in the OED as a verb? It should be.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/other

    Others might view 'Remoaners' as those who seek to delegitimise the result of a democratic referendum.....in contrast to Remainers who accept the result.

    How would you characterise 'Brexitard'?
    Somebody who cares only about exiting, and responds aggressively to any potential issues regardless of whether they have any worth.
    Why do people take offence at "leftard" then?
    I dislike it because it doesn't make any sense. At least "rightard" makes sense.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Breivik loses human rights case against Norway"

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-norway-breivik-idUKKBN168440
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Punic faith or suchlike was used as an insult by the Romans. They were annoyed at Hannibal for his 'tricks' (ie tactics and strategy). Instead of just lining up and marching to battle, he'd hide units to attack the Roman rear, and so on. Bloody cheating, it was (so they thought).
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,971
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Just on language - certain shorthand terms also can be used to signify membership of groups (a Remain voter won't use the term 'Remoaner' very often). That will affect how seriously a message is taken, as well as alienating certain groups. So, you end up fragmenting political groups by vocabulary, which means people are literally speaking different language.

    Political correctness can be used as a pejorative to mean the censorship of speech and actions that are perfectly reasonable but not line with an orthodox consensus, or as a term for ensuring bigoted speech isn't tolerated. In short, it's such a broad term it's essentially meaningless and any meaning it does have is determined by the speaker, and listener, and there could be a vast yawning chasm between them.

    That can make it hard to effectively communicate because a simple phrase everyone knows can mean wildly different things.

    /thisisanimportantpointandI'mdefinitelynotprocrastinating

    And that's without getting into devaluing terms like 'Nazi' or 'fascist' by overusing them. Like over-prescribing antibiotics, the racism card is not as powerful as it was because it was thrown at those with genuine concerns over migration.

    /ramblingforever

    The purpose of terms like Remoaner is to deligitimise a group of people for what they believe. To other* them. It's not simply, or mainly, a categorical description

    * Is "other" in the OED as a verb? It should be.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/other

    Others might view 'Remoaners' as those who seek to delegitimise the result of a democratic referendum.....in contrast to Remainers who accept the result.

    How would you characterise 'Brexitard'?
    Somebody who cares only about exiting, and responds aggressively to any potential issues regardless of whether they have any worth.
    Why do people take offence at "leftard" then?
    I imagine people would take offence at my use of Brexitard too, for the same reason - ridiculing a particular group, and the connection with retard as well. I would not actually use that one myself, but that is how I might define it, or a term encompassing the same feeling.
    They are obviously both plays on "retard", but the people exercised by "leftard" seem content to let "Brexitard" go.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    SeanT said:

    Just heard my beloved elder daughter got into her first choice secondary school: a very nice new Free School, full of clever Jewish kids, with excellent facilities, friendly teachers, spirited ethos, kick-ass pushy rich north London governors.

    Thankyou, the Coalition, 2010-2015.

    Mazel tov.
    What is the schools usp? (Obviously don't have to answer Sean).
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,785
    Bojabob said:

    Bojabob said:

    Charles said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    It's very alarming watching the Lords debate. They seem terrifyingly naive about how negotiations work - you don't give anything away without a concession.

    Lord Hailsham raised Idi Amin's expulsion of the Asians! Sensationalist, irrelevant and utterly irresponsible.

    I agree the expulsion of the East African Asians was sensationalist, irrelevant (to solving Uganda's problems) and utterly irresponsible.

    Douglas Hailsham is very close to John Major, and went utterly native in the foreign office.
    It will be a sad day in the circus when the language of the political schoolyard ends up in the OED.
    The purpose of the OED (or any good dictionary) is to record language as it is used, not, like the Academie Francais who opine on how language should be used (with very limited success - le jumbo jet well outlived 'le gros porteur')

    As Dr Johnson lexicographer (harmless drudge) of our first dictionary wisely observed you'd might as well try to bind the sea in chains as control how language is used....
    They are but fleeting, these political insults. And in any case still aren't in common currency beyond political anoraks and internet forums. See also: cybernits, leftards and virtue signalling.
    Doing a Google search - number of results:

    Virtue signalling: 2,970,000
    Leftard: 188,000
    Remoaner: 111,000
    Cybernat: 24,700

    Personally I find the -tard (left or right) suffixes objectionable given the 'retard' root, the others, meh....
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,947
    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Just on language - certain shorthand terms also can be used to signify membership of groups (a Remain voter won't use the term 'Remoaner' very often). That will affect how seriously a message is taken, as well as alienating certain groups. So, you end up fragmenting political groups by vocabulary, which means people are literally speaking different language.

    Political correctness can be used as a pejorative to mean the censorship of speech and actions that are perfectly reasonable but not line with an orthodox consensus, or as a term for ensuring bigoted speech isn't tolerated. In short, it's such a broad term it's essentially meaningless and any meaning it does have is determined by the speaker, and listener, and there could be a vast yawning chasm between them.

    That can make it hard to effectively communicate because a simple phrase everyone knows can mean wildly different things.

    /thisisanimportantpointandI'mdefinitelynotprocrastinating

    And that's without getting into devaluing terms like 'Nazi' or 'fascist' by overusing them. Like over-prescribing antibiotics, the racism card is not as powerful as it was because it was thrown at those with genuine concerns over migration.

    /ramblingforever

    The purpose of terms like Remoaner is to deligitimise a group of people for what they believe. To other* them. It's not simply, or mainly, a categorical description

    * Is "other" in the OED as a verb? It should be.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/other

    Others might view 'Remoaners' as those who seek to delegitimise the result of a democratic referendum.....in contrast to Remainers who accept the result.

    How would you characterise 'Brexitard'?
    Somebody who cares only about exiting, and responds aggressively to any potential issues regardless of whether they have any worth.
    Why do people take offence at "leftard" then?
    I imagine people would take offence at my use of Brexitard too, for the same reason - ridiculing a particular group, and the connection with retard as well. I would not actually use that one myself, but that is how I might define it, or a term encompassing the same feeling.
    They are obviously both plays on "retard", but the people exercised by "leftard" seem content to let "Brexitard" go.
    If so, that would indeed be hypocritical.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116
    SeanT said:

    "Brexit" might be the most successful new political coinage in decades

    Its prototype "Grexit" seems to have died out, for now...
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    AndyJS said:

    There have been just 8 homicides this year in London so far. That's an incredibly low number for a city of 8.6 million people.

    http://www.murdermap.co.uk/Investigate.asp

    Puts the likes of Chicago, Detroit and Los Angeles to shame. And New York.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,998
    Mr. Glenn, the Chinese considered their major ethnicity to be Han, yet Han was the dynasty that followed the Qin that first unified China.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    edited March 2017
    Who'd have guessed the Tories have reverted to type.

    The bastards are back!
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,971
    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    isam said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Just on language - certain shorthand terms also can be used to signify membership of groups (a Remain voter won't use the term 'Remoaner' very often). That will affect how seriously a message is taken, as well as alienating certain groups. So, you end up fragmenting political groups by vocabulary, which means people are literally speaking different language.

    Political correctness can be used as a pejorative to mean the censorship of speech and actions that are perfectly reasonable but not line with an orthodox consensus, or as a term for ensuring bigoted speech isn't tolerated. In short, it's such a broad term it's essentially meaningless and any meaning it does have is determined by the speaker, and listener, and there could be a vast yawning chasm between them.

    That can make it hard to effectively communicate because a simple phrase everyone knows can mean wildly different things.

    /thisisanimportantpointandI'mdefinitelynotprocrastinating

    And that's without getting into devaluing terms like 'Nazi' or 'fascist' by overusing them. Like over-prescribing antibiotics, the racism card is not as powerful as it was because it was thrown at those with genuine concerns over migration.

    /ramblingforever

    The purpose of terms like Remoaner is to deligitimise a group of people for what they believe. To other* them. It's not simply, or mainly, a categorical description

    * Is "other" in the OED as a verb? It should be.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/other

    Others might view 'Remoaners' as those who seek to delegitimise the result of a democratic referendum.....in contrast to Remainers who accept the result.

    How would you characterise 'Brexitard'?
    Somebody who cares only about exiting, and responds aggressively to any potential issues regardless of whether they have any worth.
    Why do people take offence at "leftard" then?
    I imagine people would take offence at my use of Brexitard too, for the same reason - ridiculing a particular group, and the connection with retard as well. I would not actually use that one myself, but that is how I might define it, or a term encompassing the same feeling.
    They are obviously both plays on "retard", but the people exercised by "leftard" seem content to let "Brexitard" go.
    If so, that would indeed be hypocritical.
    It sure would, and it sure is!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    "Brexit" might be the most successful new political coinage in decades

    Its prototype "Grexit" seems to have died out, for now...
    Yes, and only has 3,000,000 Google returns (about the same as "Whigs")


    108,000,000 for "Brexit" is just incredible.

    For comparison, "POTUS" gets 18,000,000. And "Tories" gets 36,000,000

    Brexit hasn't just entered the English language, it's probably entered every significant language on earth. Remarkable.
    The Germans don't have a stupidly long compound word for Brexit? Disappointing!
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,763
    edited March 2017



    The specific purpose of the term "Remoaner" is to "other" (as you put it) those who think the democratic decision of the British people should be ignored by the elite.

    You might see this as a problem.

    I don't see it as a problem for me personally, since the use of terms like these say more about the person using them than their intended targets. For the same reason and because I hold far too much self-regard, I don't similar terms against other people.

  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    God I've put on so much weight science I've turned 28/29. I used to look quite skinny but now my belly sticks out more than my dad's !!!! (He's taking some statin which makes him lose weight) I didn't think I put on that much until I shaved my beard today, getting a real double chin.........time to hit the gym.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,763
    Essexit said:

    FF43 said:

    SeanT said:



    Like it or not, Remoaner is here to stay. When a word is used and instantly understood, without inverted commas, in papers as diverse as the Sun, the FT, and the Spectator, then it is headed for the Oxford English Dictionary

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2968384/theresa-may-must-warn-brits-she-will-have-to-make-major-compromises-during-brexit-talks-or-risk-bitterly-disappointing-voters-sir-john-major-says/

    https://www.ft.com/content/0c7fb7ce-f2e5-11e6-95ee-f14e55513608

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/sorry-remoaners-british-peso-way-back/

    It certainly has currency but I'm not sure Remoaner will stay. Some supporters of independence for Scotland use "Yoon" to delegitimise supporters of the UK Union, but the term's dying out now.
    It wasn't until seeing it a few times that I actually twigged what Yoon meant. Whatever its other merits or demerits, Remoaner immediately makes sense.
    I think Scots would see the link straight away. We are into our insults up here.

    On other terms, Brixiteer is almost a neutral description to me, but Brexitard is definitely nasty.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sadly, it seems that we're still all going to die:

    http://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/the-fountain-of-youth-still-only-legend/
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    It looks as thought the Nabavi prize for the most bonkers point made by a peer in the debate will be won, against very strong competition, by a complete outsider - not even a LibDem:

    18:04 Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, a crossbencher and former diplomat credited with drafting article 50, says this negotiation will be a “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” negotiation. So it could be the case that a deal for the reciprocal rights of Britons and EU nationals does not get agreed for another two years.

    Given that is the case, it would be better to guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK now, he says


    Err, run that one past us again, Lord Kerr. You want the UK to throw away the opportunity of an early agreement on reciprocal rights for UK citizens, precisely because you think that will guarantee that they are left in uncertainty for two years?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/mar/01/pmqs-lords-article-50-debate-eu-nationals-donald-trumps-state-visit-to-uk-postponed-until-early-october-politics-live
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited March 2017
    nunu said:

    God I've put on so much weight since I've turned 28/29. I used to look quite skinny but now my belly sticks out more than my dad's !!!! (He's taking some statin which makes him lose weight) I didn't think I put on that much until I shaved my beard today, getting a real double chin.........time to hit the gym.

    Beard? – I thought you were a Miss.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    New thread!
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,985
    nunu said:

    God I've put on so much weight science I've turned 28/29. I used to look quite skinny but now my belly sticks out more than my dad's !!!! (He's taking some statin which makes him lose weight) I didn't think I put on that much until I shaved my beard today, getting a real double chin.........time to hit the gym.

    I feel your pain!
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    It looks as thought the Nabavi prize for the most bonkers point made by a peer in the debate will be won, against very strong competition, by a complete outsider - not even a LibDem:

    18:04 Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, a crossbencher and former diplomat credited with drafting article 50, says this negotiation will be a “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” negotiation. So it could be the case that a deal for the reciprocal rights of Britons and EU nationals does not get agreed for another two years.

    Given that is the case, it would be better to guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK now, he says


    Err, run that one past us again, Lord Kerr. You want the UK to throw away the opportunity of an early agreement on reciprocal rights for UK citizens, precisely because you think that will guarantee that they are left in uncertainty for two years?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/mar/01/pmqs-lords-article-50-debate-eu-nationals-donald-trumps-state-visit-to-uk-postponed-until-early-october-politics-live

    I think the point is that all expats (British in EU27 and EU27 nationals in Britain) face being in limbo for two years or more, so Britain can do the decent thing and set an example to the EU27 by guaranteeing the rights of EU27 nationals in Britain now.

    This is something that is causing a lot of heartache to EU27 residents in Britain, as I know from personal conversations. They're genuinely very concerned that they're going to be thrown out of the UK.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116
    RobD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    "Brexit" might be the most successful new political coinage in decades

    Its prototype "Grexit" seems to have died out, for now...
    Yes, and only has 3,000,000 Google returns (about the same as "Whigs")


    108,000,000 for "Brexit" is just incredible.

    For comparison, "POTUS" gets 18,000,000. And "Tories" gets 36,000,000

    Brexit hasn't just entered the English language, it's probably entered every significant language on earth. Remarkable.
    The Germans don't have a stupidly long compound word for Brexit? Disappointing!
    Das Inselaffeneigentor.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,116
    SeanT said:

    FF43 said:

    Essexit said:

    FF43 said:

    SeanT said:



    Like it or not, Remoaner is here to stay. When a word is used and instantly understood, without inverted commas, in papers as diverse as the Sun, the FT, and the Spectator, then it is headed for the Oxford English Dictionary

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2968384/theresa-may-must-warn-brits-she-will-have-to-make-major-compromises-during-brexit-talks-or-risk-bitterly-disappointing-voters-sir-john-major-says/

    https://www.ft.com/content/0c7fb7ce-f2e5-11e6-95ee-f14e55513608

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/12/sorry-remoaners-british-peso-way-back/

    It certainly has currency but I'm not sure Remoaner will stay. Some supporters of independence for Scotland use "Yoon" to delegitimise supporters of the UK Union, but the term's dying out now.
    It wasn't until seeing it a few times that I actually twigged what Yoon meant. Whatever its other merits or demerits, Remoaner immediately makes sense.
    I think Scots would see the link straight away. We are into our insults up here.

    On other terms, Brixiteer is almost a neutral description to me, but Brexitard is definitely nasty.
    Both sides did focus groups on the impact of all these words. Brexiteer was found to be a positive; people liked it - cavalier, buccaneer, Brexiteer! (which is why the FT then made it editorial policy to only use Brexiter)

    "Remainer" was found to have negative connotations. Remains, death, moaning. But by then it was too late to do anything about it.
    Why oh why did Cameron make the choice on the ballot paper 'Remain'? Such an uninspiring word.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    It looks as thought the Nabavi prize for the most bonkers point made by a peer in the debate will be won, against very strong competition, by a complete outsider - not even a LibDem:

    18:04 Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, a crossbencher and former diplomat credited with drafting article 50, says this negotiation will be a “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” negotiation. So it could be the case that a deal for the reciprocal rights of Britons and EU nationals does not get agreed for another two years.

    Given that is the case, it would be better to guarantee the rights of EU nationals living in the UK now, he says


    Err, run that one past us again, Lord Kerr. You want the UK to throw away the opportunity of an early agreement on reciprocal rights for UK citizens, precisely because you think that will guarantee that they are left in uncertainty for two years?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/mar/01/pmqs-lords-article-50-debate-eu-nationals-donald-trumps-state-visit-to-uk-postponed-until-early-october-politics-live

    John Kerr is "silly", to quote HMQ
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    This is something that is causing a lot of heartache to EU27 residents in Britain, as I know from personal conversations. They're genuinely very concerned that they're going to be thrown out of the UK.

    So, no doubt, are UK citizens living in EU27 countries. Unilaterally and unconditionally closing the issue will simply mean they are left till last. What possible incentive would our EU friends then have to expedite the matter?
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,763
    RobD said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    "Brexit" might be the most successful new political coinage in decades

    Its prototype "Grexit" seems to have died out, for now...
    Yes, and only has 3,000,000 Google returns (about the same as "Whigs")


    108,000,000 for "Brexit" is just incredible.

    For comparison, "POTUS" gets 18,000,000. And "Tories" gets 36,000,000

    Brexit hasn't just entered the English language, it's probably entered every significant language on earth. Remarkable.
    The Germans don't have a stupidly long compound word for Brexit? Disappointing!
    I see it's Brexit-krise, Brexit-angst etc. Does the hyphen indicate Brexit is a proper noun in German?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,236
    edited March 2017
    FF43 said:

    Just on language - certain shorthand terms also can be used to signify membership of groups (a Remain voter won't use the term 'Remoaner' very often). That will affect how seriously a message is taken, as well as alienating certain groups. So, you end up fragmenting political groups by vocabulary, which means people are literally speaking different language.

    Political correctness can be used as a pejorative to mean the censorship of speech and actions that are perfectly reasonable but not line with an orthodox consensus, or as a term for ensuring bigoted speech isn't tolerated. In short, it's such a broad term it's essentially meaningless and any meaning it does have is determined by the speaker, and listener, and there could be a vast yawning chasm between them.

    That can make it hard to effectively communicate because a simple phrase everyone knows can mean wildly different things.

    /thisisanimportantpointandI'mdefinitelynotprocrastinating

    And that's without getting into devaluing terms like 'Nazi' or 'fascist' by overusing them. Like over-prescribing antibiotics, the racism card is not as powerful as it was because it was thrown at those with genuine concerns over migration.

    /ramblingforever

    The purpose of terms like Remoaner is to deligitimise a group of people for what they believe. To other* them. It's not simply, or mainly, a categorical description

    * Is "other" in the OED as a verb? It should be.
    It was certainly being used frequently as a verb before and around 2014 by the likes of David Aaronovitch in recurring attempts to insist that the polities of Scotland & England were essentially the same. Subsequent history has put a stopper in that particular vessel.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,236

    nunu said:

    God I've put on so much weight since I've turned 28/29. I used to look quite skinny but now my belly sticks out more than my dad's !!!! (He's taking some statin which makes him lose weight) I didn't think I put on that much until I shaved my beard today, getting a real double chin.........time to hit the gym.

    Beard? – I thought you were a Miss.
    Don't be so genderist..
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited March 2017
    Federer loses to qualifier Donskoy in the ATP 500 Dubai 3:6 7:6 7:6 - losing six straight points in the final set tie-break to 7/5
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,100
    Roger said:

    HYUFD said:

    Is Le Pen value yet? Unless Macron is totally clean, which would be a novelty in French politics, she might find her path to the Presidency cleared (with Fancy Bear help, no doubt).

    The quasi AV system that the French use should stop Le Pen.

    Though I still think we're one terrorist attack from her becoming the resident of the Palais de l'Élysée.

    Cf Spain 2004
    Should but she is already on 40% in some polls for the runoff, Fillon is now probably fatally damaged and the Russians may well have more information on Macron's personal life they will wait to release until he is head to head with Le Pen
    Can you direct me to the poll that puts ML-P on 40%
    Both Kanfar and Sofres have Le Pen over 40% in round 2
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,389
    FF43 said:

    Just on language - certain shorthand terms also can be used to signify membership of groups (a Remain voter won't use the term 'Remoaner' very often). That will affect how seriously a message is taken, as well as alienating certain groups. So, you end up fragmenting political groups by vocabulary, which means people are literally speaking different language.

    Political correctness can be used as a pejorative to mean the censorship of speech and actions that are perfectly reasonable but not line with an orthodox consensus, or as a term for ensuring bigoted speech isn't tolerated. In short, it's such a broad term it's essentially meaningless and any meaning it does have is determined by the speaker, and listener, and there could be a vast yawning chasm between them.

    That can make it hard to effectively communicate because a simple phrase everyone knows can mean wildly different things.

    /thisisanimportantpointandI'mdefinitelynotprocrastinating

    And that's without getting into devaluing terms like 'Nazi' or 'fascist' by overusing them. Like over-prescribing antibiotics, the racism card is not as powerful as it was because it was thrown at those with genuine concerns over migration.

    /ramblingforever

    The purpose of terms like Remoaner is to deligitimise a group of people for what they believe. To other* them. It's not simply, or mainly, a categorical description

    * Is "other" in the OED as a verb? It should be.
    You just verbed it.
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