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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on whether Diane Abbott will be Shadow Home Secretary

SystemSystem Posts: 11,705
edited February 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on whether Diane Abbott will be Shadow Home Secretary at the end of 2017

William Hill have a market up whether or not Diane Abbott will be Shadow Home Secretary at the end of 2017. It has been a difficult few weeks for her, particularly over the Article 50 votes, so I can understand why William Hill have put up this market. I’ve spent a few hours trying to work out what the best option is, and I still can’t decide. I think if I had to choose I’d take the 3/1 but it is no bet for me because of that.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    First :smiley:
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    Third! Like SLAB...
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    PendduPenddu Posts: 265
    Fourth...wher Jeremy Corbyn should go to multiply
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sensible analysis of what's going on in the US right now

    http://www.dailywire.com/news/13590/there-isnt-just-one-bubble-there-are-least-two-and-ben-shapiro#exit-modal


    "...Here’s the truth: both sides are now in a bubble.

    Right now, Trump enjoys an 84 percent approval rating from Republicans and those who lean Republican, according to Pew Research; he gets just 8 percent approval from Democrats and those who lean that way. By contrast, at this point in their presidencies, Reagan had a 39 percent approval rating among Democrats; George H.W. Bush had a 46 percent approval rating among Democrats; Obama had a 37 percent approval rating from Republicans. This is the most polarized electorate in modern American history.

    Quinnipiac pegs the polarization even more starkly: according to their polling, Trump has a 91 percent favorable rating among Republicans but a 3 percent favorable rating among Democrats. And we’re still less than a month in.

    That’s because everybody is now seeing the news through the prism of revenge. That's not due to Trump. This has been brewing for years...
  • Options
    I understand TSE's dilemma - while Abbott is undoubtedly due more headaches, party discipline is hardly Corbyn's strong suit and I expect he'll priorize personal loyalty over that periodic inconvenient absences. How Abbott goes will be a function of Corbyn's departure - if it's a bloodless coup she'll stay in place as continuity Diane. If there's blood on the walls, some of it will be hers.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,920

    I understand TSE's dilemma - while Abbott is undoubtedly due more headaches, party discipline is hardly Corbyn's strong suit and I expect he'll priorize personal loyalty over that periodic inconvenient absences. How Abbott goes will be a function of Corbyn's departure - if it's a bloodless coup she'll stay in place as continuity Diane. If there's blood on the walls, some of it will be hers.

    If Corbyn goes this year - then surely Abbott won't stay as Home Secretary. I don't think she has many allies and whoever comes in will want to show they are different from Corbyn... But I think Corbyn will probably last out 2017... Or at least close enough that a new leader will come in 2018.

    I can't see Corbyn moving her... He doesn't have enough people who want to be in his shadow cabinet as it is...

    So I think she will stay... But 2/9 isn't very tempting odds.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    PlatoSaid said:

    Sensible analysis of what's going on in the US right now

    http://www.dailywire.com/news/13590/there-isnt-just-one-bubble-there-are-least-two-and-ben-shapiro#exit-modal


    "...Here’s the truth: both sides are now in a bubble.

    Right now, Trump enjoys an 84 percent approval rating from Republicans and those who lean Republican, according to Pew Research; he gets just 8 percent approval from Democrats and those who lean that way. By contrast, at this point in their presidencies, Reagan had a 39 percent approval rating among Democrats; George H.W. Bush had a 46 percent approval rating among Democrats; Obama had a 37 percent approval rating from Republicans. This is the most polarized electorate in modern American history.

    Quinnipiac pegs the polarization even more starkly: according to their polling, Trump has a 91 percent favorable rating among Republicans but a 3 percent favorable rating among Democrats. And we’re still less than a month in.

    That’s because everybody is now seeing the news through the prism of revenge. That's not due to Trump. This has been brewing for years...

    Trump isn't trying to unite America; he's trying to divide it. Them and us; it's not *your* fault; it's *theirs*. The truth is what I say it is.

    It isn't a recipe for a healthy America going forwards.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,920
    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    BBC dumbing down.
    But these days anything about Trump people will click on....
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    Here in the UK, it's only mentioned on the 'Most popular' section (fourth down).

    It may be that the front page is delivered differently to different countries.

    On a slightly different note, there's another headline: "Trump & Bingham into Welsh Open final". Who knew that the POTUS was so good at snooker? ;)
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068
    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    PlatoSaid said:
    There are a host of factors coming into play: the media want to be timely in reporting things (or otherwise they may be scooped by others). Research costs money, and it's easier to sack researchers than reporters. And the consequences of errors are often minuscule compared to the gains.

    However the new media tend to far, far worse, for the same reasons and more.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,920

    PlatoSaid said:
    There are a host of factors coming into play: the media want to be timely in reporting things (or otherwise they may be scooped by others). Research costs money, and it's easier to sack researchers than reporters. And the consequences of errors are often minuscule compared to the gains.

    However the new media tend to far, far worse, for the same reasons and more.
    And for many websites... They're not making mistakes.
    Their goal is to make up plausible lies and make money from clicks.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068

    PlatoSaid said:
    There are a host of factors coming into play: the media want to be timely in reporting things (or otherwise they may be scooped by others). Research costs money, and it's easier to sack researchers than reporters. And the consequences of errors are often minuscule compared to the gains.

    However the new media tend to far, far worse, for the same reasons and more.
    We haven’t, as a society, yet come to terms with the ‘new media’, where everyone and anyone can have a public platform.
    Demagogues like Hitler spoke to massive crowds at rallies, but only those there got the ‘benefit’ of it. Those who were not had to read about it or watch extracts at the cinema. Trump can, and does, use the TV and internet, to speak to anyone who cares to watch.

    Last night’s effort was chilling.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    Still not sure it is newsworthy enough to be front page on the BBC!
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    rkrkrk said:

    PlatoSaid said:
    There are a host of factors coming into play: the media want to be timely in reporting things (or otherwise they may be scooped by others). Research costs money, and it's easier to sack researchers than reporters. And the consequences of errors are often minuscule compared to the gains.

    However the new media tend to far, far worse, for the same reasons and more.
    And for many websites... They're not making mistakes.
    Their goal is to make up plausible lies and make money from clicks.
    Yep.

    Though there are some excellent specialist websites out there; in technology, ARSTechnica and Anandtech are two that seem to actually perform analysis. Both can have excellent comments below the line - though Anandtech seems to be slipping slightly in terms of analysis.

    Arstechnica is excellent for another reason: as well as discussing what is in a paper, they actually link to the paper so the reader can make up their own minds. I *wish* the BBC would do that.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    On a slightly different note, there's another headline: "Trump & Bingham into Welsh Open final". Who knew that the POTUS was so good at snooker? ;)

    Cue bad PB puns ....

  • Options
    3/1 on a bet which is in large part a proxy for whether Jeremy Corbyn has stepped down as Labour leader by the end of the year looks very reasonable in present circumstances. Ladbrokes price the direct bet on Jeremy Corbyn leaving in 2017 at 11/8.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075

    PlatoSaid said:
    There are a host of factors coming into play: the media want to be timely in reporting things (or otherwise they may be scooped by others). Research costs money, and it's easier to sack researchers than reporters. And the consequences of errors are often minuscule compared to the gains.

    However the new media tend to far, far worse, for the same reasons and more.
    We haven’t, as a society, yet come to terms with the ‘new media’, where everyone and anyone can have a public platform.
    Demagogues like Hitler spoke to massive crowds at rallies, but only those there got the ‘benefit’ of it. Those who were not had to read about it or watch extracts at the cinema. Trump can, and does, use the TV and internet, to speak to anyone who cares to watch.

    Last night’s effort was chilling.
    The rallies comment is interesting given the increased capabilities in tech. Modi used hologram-type tech to appear in many rallies simultaneously. Some credit his win to it.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27939865

    I doubt similar tech would appeal to UK voters; it may in the US.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited February 2017

    PlatoSaid said:
    There are a host of factors coming into play: the media want to be timely in reporting things (or otherwise they may be scooped by others). Research costs money, and it's easier to sack researchers than reporters. And the consequences of errors are often minuscule compared to the gains.

    However the new media tend to far, far worse, for the same reasons and more.
    We haven’t, as a society, yet come to terms with the ‘new media’, where everyone and anyone can have a public platform.
    Demagogues like Hitler spoke to massive crowds at rallies, but only those there got the ‘benefit’ of it. Those who were not had to read about it or watch extracts at the cinema. Trump can, and does, use the TV and internet, to speak to anyone who cares to watch.

    Last night’s effort was chilling.
    I thought such a takeover was not possible. But Hitler was only 80 years ago and I am sure many people even at that time thought that the "system" will stop him. It didn't.

    What's worrying are the approval ratings. Not surprising that 80-90% of Democrats oppose him. But 80-90% Republicans actually approve of him ? After seeing what has happened in the last month ?

    I remember people saying after Pence was selected that he is one from the religious right. I will tell you, people will be only too happy to see him take over.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,068

    PlatoSaid said:
    There are a host of factors coming into play: the media want to be timely in reporting things (or otherwise they may be scooped by others). Research costs money, and it's easier to sack researchers than reporters. And the consequences of errors are often minuscule compared to the gains.

    However the new media tend to far, far worse, for the same reasons and more.
    We haven’t, as a society, yet come to terms with the ‘new media’, where everyone and anyone can have a public platform.
    Demagogues like Hitler spoke to massive crowds at rallies, but only those there got the ‘benefit’ of it. Those who were not had to read about it or watch extracts at the cinema. Trump can, and does, use the TV and internet, to speak to anyone who cares to watch.

    Last night’s effort was chilling.
    The rallies comment is interesting given the increased capabilities in tech. Modi used hologram-type tech to appear in many rallies simultaneously. Some credit his win to it.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27939865

    I doubt similar tech would appeal to UK voters; it may in the US.
    It’s a thought, isn’t it Mr J. Thanks for the link. I agree I don’t think it would here ‘cold’ but during an election? I suspect it might.
    Although I suspect that simultaneous election rallies, a bit like the big TV participatory events ...... Last Night of the Proms and so on ....... are more likely to be the way we’ll go.
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    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    PlatoSaid said:
    There are a host of factors coming into play: the media want to be timely in reporting things (or otherwise they may be scooped by others). Research costs money, and it's easier to sack researchers than reporters. And the consequences of errors are often minuscule compared to the gains.

    However the new media tend to far, far worse, for the same reasons and more.
    We haven’t, as a society, yet come to terms with the ‘new media’, where everyone and anyone can have a public platform.
    Demagogues like Hitler spoke to massive crowds at rallies, but only those there got the ‘benefit’ of it. Those who were not had to read about it or watch extracts at the cinema. Trump can, and does, use the TV and internet, to speak to anyone who cares to watch.

    Last night’s effort was chilling.
    The rallies comment is interesting given the increased capabilities in tech. Modi used hologram-type tech to appear in many rallies simultaneously. Some credit his win to it.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27939865

    I doubt similar tech would appeal to UK voters; it may in the US.
    I believe one of the French presidential candidates appeared as a hologram too.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    JackW said:

    On a slightly different note, there's another headline: "Trump & Bingham into Welsh Open final". Who knew that the POTUS was so good at snooker? ;)

    Cue bad PB puns ....

    Chalk up another one to JackW.....
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    According to wikipedia, checks along the Norway-Sweden border are 'sporadic'.
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited February 2017
    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    I guess Eire will just have to leave the EU if Brussels proves troublesome.
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    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    According to wikipedia, checks along the Norway-Sweden border are 'sporadic'.
    One imagines that is like the French checking of papers at Calais is "sporadic", when its not in their interest, or when they are French, countries can be remarkable lax about implementing EU laws - except sad to say, the British, who like to gold plate them.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    And that counts as news? Another reason to abolish the licence fee.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited February 2017

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?
    Can't they already do that?
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?
    Can't they already do that?
    I thought you were going to stop freedom of movement ! That was wot Brexit was about, I'm told.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    I guess Eire will just have to leave the EU if Brussels proves troublesome.
    Typical arrogant Brit.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075
    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:
    There are a host of factors coming into play: the media want to be timely in reporting things (or otherwise they may be scooped by others). Research costs money, and it's easier to sack researchers than reporters. And the consequences of errors are often minuscule compared to the gains.

    However the new media tend to far, far worse, for the same reasons and more.
    We haven’t, as a society, yet come to terms with the ‘new media’, where everyone and anyone can have a public platform.
    Demagogues like Hitler spoke to massive crowds at rallies, but only those there got the ‘benefit’ of it. Those who were not had to read about it or watch extracts at the cinema. Trump can, and does, use the TV and internet, to speak to anyone who cares to watch.

    Last night’s effort was chilling.
    The rallies comment is interesting given the increased capabilities in tech. Modi used hologram-type tech to appear in many rallies simultaneously. Some credit his win to it.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27939865

    I doubt similar tech would appeal to UK voters; it may in the US.
    I believe one of the French presidential candidates appeared as a hologram too.
    Thanks, I missed that. It seems it was Melenchon:

    https://phys.org/news/2017-02-french-presidential-campaign-high-tech-hologram.html
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    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,006
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    Still not sure it is newsworthy enough to be front page on the BBC!
    It is four levels down. You have to really search to find it.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    Still not sure it is newsworthy enough to be front page on the BBC!
    It is four levels down. You have to really search to find it.
    As I said in my original post, this is when viewed from the US.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,006
    edited February 2017
    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    Still not sure it is newsworthy enough to be front page on the BBC!
    It is four levels down. You have to really search to find it.
    As I said in my original post, this is when viewed from the US.
    In the US you get the "World" page first so it is three levels down. World, then US & Canada, then click on a small item near bottom right. Are you sure you are on the BBC news site?

    EDIT: Just gone in via a VPN to access it as if I were in the USA. I can see the small item under "Other news" on the first page. Apologies.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    Still not sure it is newsworthy enough to be front page on the BBC!
    It is four levels down. You have to really search to find it.
    As I said in my original post, this is when viewed from the US.
    In the US you get the "World" page first so it is three levels down. World, then US & Canada, then click on a small item near bottom right. Are you sure you are on the BBC news site?
    This is when I went to http://news.bbc.co.uk.
  • Options
    Good morning, everyone.

    Again. Weird. I have a comment, posted it, but it never showed.

    Anyway.

    I wouldn't back the bet. It's certainly a credible outcome, but the odds are rubbish and you have to wait nearly 10 months.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    Still not sure it is newsworthy enough to be front page on the BBC!
    It is four levels down. You have to really search to find it.
    As I said in my original post, this is when viewed from the US.
    That may reflect how popular it is in the US. As a wild guess, the BBC may be more popular among Democrats than Republicans, let alone Trump supporters!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    Still not sure it is newsworthy enough to be front page on the BBC!
    It is four levels down. You have to really search to find it.
    As I said in my original post, this is when viewed from the US.
    In the US you get the "World" page first so it is three levels down. World, then US & Canada, then click on a small item near bottom right. Are you sure you are on the BBC news site?

    EDIT: Just gone in via a VPN to access it as if I were in the USA. I can see the small item under "Other news" on the first page. Apologies.
    Yes, it has been demoted a bit, it was where the California "weather bomb" story now is.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990

    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    Still not sure it is newsworthy enough to be front page on the BBC!
    It is four levels down. You have to really search to find it.
    As I said in my original post, this is when viewed from the US.
    That may reflect how popular it is in the US. As a wild guess, the BBC may be more popular among Democrats than Republicans, let alone Trump supporters!
    Yeah, I question whether the BBC should even have an article on it. It isn't really news.
  • Options
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Doesn't that rather depend on how the UK sets its tariffs?
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Business rates: Are we going to have yet another hike in VAT to solve the problem ? The last solution was to kick the problem into the long grass. Well, it lay hidden but it was always there.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,788
    edited February 2017

    If Tiny Trump shows in Germany the BBC might get prosecuted under their Kaiser era law!
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited February 2017
    matt said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
    Are you dim or what ? WTF is talking about Britain and Ireland. We are talking about Ireland and Northern Ireland [ you know, our colony ]. Part of the UK but not in GB.

    There are no checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same country. If there are going to be no checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland, then effectively there will be no checks between the EU [ Ireland ] and Britain.

    P.S. I don't know how I maintain my properties without going there.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    nothing stops it today and there are big differences in UK and Irish tax rates, usually it's cheaper in the UK

  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    Still not sure it is newsworthy enough to be front page on the BBC!
    there is another that I pointed out yesterday which in reality was an I love Obama thread
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Doesn't that rather depend on how the UK sets its tariffs?
    What if it is WTO ?
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    nothing stops it today and there are big differences in UK and Irish tax rates, usually it's cheaper in the UK

    I didn't know we had tariffs between Northern Ireland and Ireland today. Any tariffs imposed will be over and above present differentials.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    surbiton said:

    matt said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
    Are you dim or what ? WTF is talking about Britain and Ireland. We are talking about Ireland and Northern Ireland [ you know, our colony ]. Part of the UK but not in GB.

    There are no checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same country. If there are going to be no checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland, then effectively there will be no checks between the EU [ Ireland ] and Britain.

    P.S. I don't know how I maintain my properties without going there.
    idiot

    there are lots of checks still
  • Options
    surbiton said:

    matt said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
    Are you dim or what ? WTF is talking about Britain and Ireland. We are talking about Ireland and Northern Ireland [ you know, our colony ]. Part of the UK but not in GB.

    There are no checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same country. If there are going to be no checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland, then effectively there will be no checks between the EU [ Ireland ] and Britain.

    P.S. I don't know how I maintain my properties without going there.
    How many have you got? And do you think people with no property should have votes?

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,409
    surbiton said:

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?

    Other way around, surely? Traditionally Britain has always been very suspicious of tariffs, and it's unlikely we will impose high ones, or even be in a position to do so given the amount of external trading we will need to do after leaving the EU.

    However, the EU has always had very high tariffs on a number of things, especially food, to protect its main customers and force the single market more firmly together.

    Therefore, if there are controls it is likely to be the EU trying to protect its own barriers to entry and avoid say, American or Indian companies sending their goods tariff free into the EU via Belfast and Londonderry. Although neither we nor the Irish will like it, I'm not sure there's much we can do particularly if they decide to play silly buggers in the exit negotiations.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    nothing stops it today and there are big differences in UK and Irish tax rates, usually it's cheaper in the UK

    I didn't know we had tariffs between Northern Ireland and Ireland today. Any tariffs imposed will be over and above present differentials.

    you get in your car, you drive to Newry fill up on booze and drive home

    you'll save yourself hundreds of euros

    nobody stops you

  • Options
    Miss Vance, Kaiser-era law?
  • Options
    surbiton said:

    matt said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
    Are you dim or what ? WTF is talking about Britain and Ireland. We are talking about Ireland and Northern Ireland [ you know, our colony ]. Part of the UK but not in GB.

    There are no checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same country. If there are going to be no checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland, then effectively there will be no checks between the EU [ Ireland ] and Britain.

    P.S. I don't know how I maintain my properties without going there.
    A pedant writes: Britain = UK, not GB, so Britain and Ireland is correct, even if not wholly unambiguous.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    .
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    nothing stops it today and there are big differences in UK and Irish tax rates, usually it's cheaper in the UK

    I didn't know we had tariffs between Northern Ireland and Ireland today. Any tariffs imposed will be over and above present differentials.

    you get in your car, you drive to Newry fill up on booze and drive home

    you'll save yourself hundreds of euros

    nobody stops you

    I thought we were both in the EU. And that is how it should be.

    So, let me put it this way. If a Romanian flew into Dublin, then took a bus ride to Belfast and then took a flight or the ferry to Britain and found himself a job [ illegally ] , you would have no problem with that ?

    You can imagine a similar route for high tariff goods
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    edited February 2017
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Doesn't that rather depend on how the UK sets its tariffs?
    What if it is WTO ?
    We still set our own tariffs. The WTO doesn't set our external tariffs, only the goods on which tariffs can be set and retaliatory rates.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?

    Other way around, surely? Traditionally Britain has always been very suspicious of tariffs, and it's unlikely we will impose high ones, or even be in a position to do so given the amount of external trading we will need to do after leaving the EU.

    However, the EU has always had very high tariffs on a number of things, especially food, to protect its main customers and force the single market more firmly together.

    Therefore, if there are controls it is likely to be the EU trying to protect its own barriers to entry and avoid say, American or Indian companies sending their goods tariff free into the EU via Belfast and Londonderry. Although neither we nor the Irish will like it, I'm not sure there's much we can do particularly if they decide to play silly buggers in the exit negotiations.
    You are still seeing through your {English] rose tinted specs. The WTO regime is coming. There will be no agreement between the EU and the UK.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    .
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" isas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    nothing stops it today and there are big differences in UK and Irish tax rates, usually it's cheaper in the UK

    I didn't know we had tariffs between Northern Ireland and Ireland today. Any tariffs imposed will be over and above present differentials.

    you get in your car, you drive to Newry fill up on booze and drive home

    you'll save yourself hundreds of euros

    nobody stops you

    I thought we were both in the EU. And that is how it should be.

    So, let me put it this way. If a Romanian flew into Dublin, then took a bus ride to Belfast and then took a flight or the ferry to Britain and found himself a job [ illegally ] , you would have no problem with that ?

    You can imagine a similar route for high tariff goods
    if you want to air freight 20 cases of booze lets see you do it.

    As for the Romanian that's what happens today and the EU wont agree to us restricting access to benefits in the way Germany does.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    surbiton said:

    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?

    Other way around, surely? Traditionally Britain has always been very suspicious of tariffs, and it's unlikely we will impose high ones, or even be in a position to do so given the amount of external trading we will need to do after leaving the EU.

    However, the EU has always had very high tariffs on a number of things, especially food, to protect its main customers and force the single market more firmly together.

    Therefore, if there are controls it is likely to be the EU trying to protect its own barriers to entry and avoid say, American or Indian companies sending their goods tariff free into the EU via Belfast and Londonderry. Although neither we nor the Irish will like it, I'm not sure there's much we can do particularly if they decide to play silly buggers in the exit negotiations.
    You are still seeing through your {English] rose tinted specs. The WTO regime is coming. There will be no agreement between the EU and the UK.
    WTO doesn't set minimum tariffs, does it?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,075

    Miss Vance, Kaiser-era law?

    I think it's a reference to the law that makes it illegal to insult foreign leaders:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/26/germany-scrap-law-bans-insulting-foreign-leaders/
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited February 2017

    Miss Vance, Kaiser-era law?

    The German law which forbids insulting heads of state, dates back to 1871 and the reign of Kaiser Wilhelm II.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?

    Other way around, surely? Traditionally Britain has always been very suspicious of tariffs, and it's unlikely we will impose high ones, or even be in a position to do so given the amount of external trading we will need to do after leaving the EU.

    However, the EU has always had very high tariffs on a number of things, especially food, to protect its main customers and force the single market more firmly together.

    Therefore, if there are controls it is likely to be the EU trying to protect its own barriers to entry and avoid say, American or Indian companies sending their goods tariff free into the EU via Belfast and Londonderry. Although neither we nor the Irish will like it, I'm not sure there's much we can do particularly if they decide to play silly buggers in the exit negotiations.
    So, the logical conclusion of your perfectly well thought out point is that there cannot be a "customs arrangement" between the UK and the EU precisely because of the above. Otherwise, it will be a smugglers charter.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    In Scotland, the Conservatives under Ruth Davidson positioned themselves as the defenders of the Union. We speak, she said, for those who voted No to independence. This understanding of the new rules of engagement breathed life into the Scottish Tories and helped them leapfrog Labour in the polls.

    Labour at a UK level should have branded itself the party for Remain voters.
    Those who wished to stay in the EU may have formed a minority but it is a sizeable one and Labour’s decision to ignore them may yet prove fatal.

    Labour MPs who have now agreed to play their part in ensuring a swift Brexit are fools if they believe there is anything to be gained electorally from their position.

    Voters who wanted the UK out of Europe can get the red-blooded, full-fat version of isolationism from the Tory right and Ukip. By comparison, Labour’s Brexit vision – we’ll support it but we don’t like it – lacks oomph.

    Read more at: http://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/euan-mccolm-why-blair-speech-heralds-birth-of-a-new-party-1-4370418
  • Options
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Doesn't that rather depend on how the UK sets its tariffs?
    What if it is WTO ?
    The WTO does not set our tarriffs - we do. If we set high ones, that's our look out, no one else's.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    matt said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
    Are you dim or what ? WTF is talking about Britain and Ireland. We are talking about Ireland and Northern Ireland [ you know, our colony ]. Part of the UK but not in GB.

    There are no checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same country. If there are going to be no checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland, then effectively there will be no checks between the EU [ Ireland ] and Britain.

    P.S. I don't know how I maintain my properties without going there.
    How many have you got? And do you think people with no property should have votes?

    Two in Dublin. Yes, every 16 year old and older should have the vote.
  • Options

    Miss Vance, Kaiser-era law?

    It's one they haven't got round to repealing where it's illegal in Germany to insult the head of state of a foreign country - a poet was prosecuted under it recently for being rude about Erdogan.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Doesn't that rather depend on how the UK sets its tariffs?
    What if it is WTO ?
    The WTO does not set our tarriffs - we do. If we set high ones, that's our look out, no one else's.
    Smugglers ?
  • Options
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    .
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    nothing stops it today and there are big differences in UK and Irish tax rates, usually it's cheaper in the UK

    I didn't know we had tariffs between Northern Ireland and Ireland today. Any tariffs imposed will be over and above present differentials.

    you get in your car, you drive to Newry fill up on booze and drive home

    you'll save yourself hundreds of euros

    nobody stops you

    I thought we were both in the EU. And that is how it should be.

    So, let me put it this way. If a Romanian flew into Dublin, then took a bus ride to Belfast and then took a flight or the ferry to Britain and found himself a job [ illegally ]
    Why wouldn't the Romanian fly directly to Stansted if he planned to work illegally? Why go to the bother of routing via Ireland?
  • Options

    Miss Vance, Kaiser-era law?

    The German law which forbids insulting heads of state, dates back to 1871 and the reign of Kaiser Wilhelm II.
    Wrong Wilhelm - if indeed it was 1871

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,409
    edited February 2017
    surbiton said:

    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?

    Other way around, surely? Traditionally Britain has always been very suspicious of tariffs, and it's unlikely we will impose high ones, or even be in a position to do so given the amount of external trading we will need to do after leaving the EU.

    However, the EU has always had very high tariffs on a number of things, especially food, to protect its main customers and force the single market more firmly together.

    Therefore, if there are controls it is likely to be the EU trying to protect its own barriers to entry and avoid say, American or Indian companies sending their goods tariff free into the EU via Belfast and Londonderry. Although neither we nor the Irish will like it, I'm not sure there's much we can do particularly if they decide to play silly buggers in the exit negotiations.
    So, the logical conclusion of your perfectly well thought out point is that there cannot be a "customs arrangement" between the UK and the EU precisely because of the above. Otherwise, it will be a smugglers charter.
    Which was my point. But the customs barriers will be imposed by the EU, not us. Neither the British nor the Irish are going to impose them unilaterally. (Also I'm not sure I'd call legally bringing goods into one country and legally transferring them to a second country as 'smuggling'.)

    I'm also slightly puzzled (albeit also flattered, of course) that you felt the need to respond to it twice. Just one minor correction to your first point - I am not English. The clue is in the user name...
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    surbiton said:

    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?

    Other way around, surely? Traditionally Britain has always been very suspicious of tariffs, and it's unlikely we will impose high ones, or even be in a position to do so given the amount of external trading we will need to do after leaving the EU.

    However, the EU has always had very high tariffs on a number of things, especially food, to protect its main customers and force the single market more firmly together.

    Therefore, if there are controls it is likely to be the EU trying to protect its own barriers to entry and avoid say, American or Indian companies sending their goods tariff free into the EU via Belfast and Londonderry. Although neither we nor the Irish will like it, I'm not sure there's much we can do particularly if they decide to play silly buggers in the exit negotiations.
    You are still seeing through your {English] rose tinted specs. The WTO regime is coming. There will be no agreement between the EU and the UK.
    Clueless.
  • Options
    Ah, can't believe I forgot that.

    Thanks Miss Vance, Mr. StClare, Mr. Jessop.
  • Options
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Doesn't that rather depend on how the UK sets its tariffs?
    What if it is WTO ?
    The WTO does not set our tarriffs - we do. If we set high ones, that's our look out, no one else's.
    Smugglers ?
    You think "outward looking global trading Britain" is consistent with "high tariffs"?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Doesn't that rather depend on how the UK sets its tariffs?
    What if it is WTO ?
    The WTO does not set our tarriffs - we do. If we set high ones, that's our look out, no one else's.
    Smugglers ?
    You think "outward looking global trading Britain" is consistent with "high tariffs"?
    more bizarrely he thinks theres no smuggling within the EU

    cigarettes anyone ?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    MikeL said:

    SUNDAY TIMES:

    "Six Labour peers are poised to defect from Labour, delivering a fresh blow to Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership.

    Senior sources in the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats say the peers will resign the Labour whip and have struck secret deals to vote with the rival parties instead.

    The peers are expected to become crossbenchers rather than formally sign up with either of Labour’s opponents. But some have privately agreed that the Lib Dems can send them their whipping cards — telling peers how to vote on each issue — enabling them to co-operate. Others have struck similar deals with the Tories."

    Key point, even the peers not willing to formally defect to someone else. The hold of labour is too strong to contemplate properly leaving.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    surbiton said:

    matt said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
    Are you dim or what ? WTF is talking about Britain and Ireland. We are talking about Ireland and Northern Ireland [ you know, our colony ]. Part of the UK but not in GB.

    There are no checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same country. If there are going to be no checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland, then effectively there will be no checks between the EU [ Ireland ] and Britain.

    P.S. I don't know how I maintain my properties without going there.
    Ah - an absentee liberal landlord - how amusing!
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?

    Other way around, surely? Traditionally Britain has always been very suspicious of tariffs, and it's unlikely we will impose high ones, or even be in a position to do so given the amount of external trading we will need to do after leaving the EU.

    However, the EU has always had very high tariffs on a number of things, especially food, to protect its main customers and force the single market more firmly together.

    Therefore, if there are controls it is likely to be the EU trying to protect its own barriers to entry and avoid say, American or Indian companies sending their goods tariff free into the EU via Belfast and Londonderry. Although neither we nor the Irish will like it, I'm not sure there's much we can do particularly if they decide to play silly buggers in the exit negotiations.
    From the Republic's perspective, they face the prospect of much cheaper global imports being available in Northern Ireland if the UK starts abolishing EU style tariffs and quotas.

    The Irish are riding the wrong horse.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,956
    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    matt said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
    Are you dim or what ? WTF is talking about Britain and Ireland. We are talking about Ireland and Northern Ireland [ you know, our colony ]. Part of the UK but not in GB.

    There are no checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same country. If there are going to be no checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland, then effectively there will be no checks between the EU [ Ireland ] and Britain.

    P.S. I don't know how I maintain my properties without going there.
    Ah - an absentee liberal landlord - how amusing!
    It is amazing how many of the fervent Remainers here have property in the EU. Colour me shocked.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,409
    chestnut said:

    From the Republic's perspective, they face the prospect of much cheaper global imports being available in Northern Ireland if the UK starts abolishing EU style tariffs and quotas.

    The Irish are riding the wrong horse.

    That may be true. But they also face the prospect of a second banking collapse even now if they squabble with the EU. They will not I think take that path (and I don't blame them) but it does leave them between a rock and a red-hot lump of iron.
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    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    matt said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/08/irish-border-checks-impossible-after-brexit-says-ambassador-daniel-mulhall?client=safari
    So I take it you will have no problem when other EU nationals or non-EU nationals walk over to Northern Ireland. Or, will the Irish Ambassador stop them ?

    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
    Are you dim or what ? WTF is talking about Britain and Ireland. We are talking about Ireland and Northern Ireland [ you know, our colony ]. Part of the UK but not in GB.

    There are no checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same country. If there are going to be no checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland, then effectively there will be no checks between the EU [ Ireland ] and Britain.

    P.S. I don't know how I maintain my properties without going there.
    Ah - an absentee liberal landlord - how amusing!
    The Rentier class still with us! Living abroad and voting Liberal.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    Mortimer said:

    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    matt said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.


    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to "Immigration control" I think you'll find you already need photo ID to pass between Ireland and the UK - unless you want to swim. As the Irish ambassador points out, why go to the faff of flying to Dublin, driving to Belfast then flying to the UK when you can fly directly to Stansted? Unless you think we're going to be issuing visas for European visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
    Are you dim or what ? WTF is talking about Britain and Ireland. We are talking about Ireland and Northern Ireland [ you know, our colony ]. Part of the UK but not in GB.

    There are no checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same country. If there are going to be no checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland, then effectively there will be no checks between the EU [ Ireland ] and Britain.

    P.S. I don't know how I maintain my properties without going there.
    Ah - an absentee liberal landlord - how amusing!
    It is amazing how many of the fervent Remainers here have property in the EU. Colour me shocked.
    I live in Spain and voted Remain. However, the result of the vote has to be respected and made the best of. People like Blair running down the UK is not helpful to the process.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited February 2017
    Ireland struggling to face up to the meaning and repercussions of Brexit?

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/establishment-running-away-from-brexit-plan-truth-35462897.html

    The bravado in this headline doesn't conceal the concern at the customs union;

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0217/853499-david-murphy-uk-triumph-of-optimism-over-realism/
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 92,048
    edited February 2017
    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    And that counts as news? Another reason to abolish the licence fee.
    Oh goody, I do love it when anything, minor and major, is reason to abolish the licence fee. As regular as clockwork, if they make something too prominent, or not prominent enough, (and half the time such complaints are bigots as 'hidden' stories are reasonably prominent etc), if an Entertainment presenter says something stupid, if they send too many people or not enough people to an event, come rain or shine, it's time to abolish the licence fee.

    The nearest thing I can equate it to is Scottish nationalists. Everything, no matter what, becomes justification for the outcome desired, so there may well be plenty of sense behind the position, maybe it is the best idea, but when everything is treated with equal seriousness - be it a luvvie being stupid, too many puff pieces or actual bias or incompetence - it somewhat undermines the message outside the core, since that's always the message.

    See also 'the NHS is in crisis' (when isn't it?).

    And before they angrily mock and dismiss me, could any nationalists note I specified 'maybe' there's plenty of sense and maybe even the best ideas coming from such people, it was about how the message, any message, can oversaturate depending on how it is transmitted.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Tom Freeman
    For 10 months now, Labour has been in remarkably constant decline. Alienating another 1% of the electorate every 6 or 7 weeks. https://t.co/fKBQ0ATRe7
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    Miss Plato, Labour needn't worry. It won't keep going at that rate for much longer.
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    MJWMJW Posts: 1,381
    I think I'd take the 3/1 just because there are so many plausible ways that side of the bet can work out. First she resigns/is sacked after another Brexit impasse, unlikely, as Corbyn would probably keep her and she has his ear. Second, Corbyn goes, which is 10/11 with Hill's, in which case Abbott almost certainly goes, even if it's only to move to another post. Third, she's moved by Corbyn to cover another brief where he feels he needs a loyalist after another bout of resignations or a falling out over an issue. That can't be discounted given 12 months ago Clive Lewis was one of his biggest supporters and is now an unperson. Obvious one would be Thornberry - who's not an ideological Corbynite and not exactly on board with Brexit (although neither is Abbott, but is more loyal to Corbyn) and possibly has her own ambitions. Given Foreign Sec's prominence during Brexit and opposite Boris it would be a promotion. Fourth, there's a scandal and she has to resign - the press have never liked Abbott at the best of times and would love nothing more than to dig something up that humiliatingly forces her out. Fifth, she resigns for health reasons, again unlikely but she is 63 and does get those terrible migraines. Lastly, she's one of those that wields the knife or hands Jeremy the revolver. Most unlikely of all, but even staunch Corbynites have begun to question his leadership and you never know - the worse things get, Abbott has always been marginally less delusional than McDonnell and Corbyn and may not want to go down with the ship.

    The main one is Corbyn going, which seems less likely than two weeks ago before Walter Nutty's Stoke shenanigans, but still a fair chance, and there's several other entirely plausible ways it could occur.
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    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    matt said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    I fear the protesters have got it wrong - if anyone orders customs checks at the Irish border - it won't be the British - or the Irish - it will be the EU:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-39016582

    There will have to be customs checks at the border if there is no customs union.
    Comprehensive customs and border checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland are not remotely possible, the Irish ambassador to the UK has said, predicting the EU will recognise the unique nature of the border when Brexit causes the UK to leave both the single market and customs union.


    In fact, we could go a bit further. No need to have customs check in Heathrow, Dover.......
    Are you confusing "Freedom of Movement" with "Freedom of settlement with unfettered access to social security, social housing and the NHS"?

    As to visitors?
    Unless there are border checks, who are you going to show the photo ID ? Sorry, I forgot the Irish Ambassador will be there.

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?
    Have you ever travelled between Britain and Ireland?
    Are you dim or what ? WTF is talking about Britain and Ireland. We are talking about Ireland and Northern Ireland [ you know, our colony ]. Part of the UK but not in GB.

    There are no checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. Same country. If there are going to be no checks between Ireland and Northern Ireland, then effectively there will be no checks between the EU [ Ireland ] and Britain.

    P.S. I don't know how I maintain my properties without going there.
    Ah - an absentee liberal landlord - how amusing!
    It is amazing how many of the fervent Remainers here have property in the EU. Colour me shocked.
    I live in Spain and voted Remain. However, the result of the vote has to be respected and made the best of. People like Blair running down the UK is not helpful to the process.

    Criticising Brexit at any cost is not running down the country. Running down the country is not permitting any critique of a course of action the government is taking.

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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,409
    chestnut said:

    Ireland struggling to face up to the meaning and repercussions of Brexit?

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/establishment-running-away-from-brexit-plan-truth-35462897.html

    The bravado in this headline doesn't conceal the concern at the customs union;

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0217/853499-david-murphy-uk-triumph-of-optimism-over-realism/

    This is also quite interesting (and very bitter towards the UK):

    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/02/16/brexit-customs-unions-and-borders/

    With that I am off. Have a good week everyone!
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    French betting: on Ladbrokes, Macron's odds have lengthened a smidge to 2.75 (from 2.62), Fillon's odds tightened from 4.5 to 3.75. Le Pen steady at 3.

    Still a couple of months to go, of course.
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    chestnut said:

    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?

    Other way around, surely? Traditionally Britain has always been very suspicious of tariffs, and it's unlikely we will impose high ones, or even be in a position to do so given the amount of external trading we will need to do after leaving the EU.

    However, the EU has always had very high tariffs on a number of things, especially food, to protect its main customers and force the single market more firmly together.

    Therefore, if there are controls it is likely to be the EU trying to protect its own barriers to entry and avoid say, American or Indian companies sending their goods tariff free into the EU via Belfast and Londonderry. Although neither we nor the Irish will like it, I'm not sure there's much we can do particularly if they decide to play silly buggers in the exit negotiations.
    From the Republic's perspective, they face the prospect of much cheaper global imports being available in Northern Ireland if the UK starts abolishing EU style tariffs and quotas.

    The Irish are riding the wrong horse.

    The Irish were subjugated by the British for 700 years. They were deprived of their land and their rights. They were starved from their country. And now they see the British causing them no end of trouble again. One thing is sure, though: they will take whatever is thrown at them as an alternative to getting back into bed with us.

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,207
    kle4 said:

    tlg86 said:

    RobD said:

    On the front page of the BBC News website (viewing from the US)

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39015879

    While the images are rather funny, is this really front page news material for a respected broadcaster like the BBC?

    It’s not the picture itself, is it; it’s the fact that pictures like this are being widely circulated.
    And that counts as news? Another reason to abolish the licence fee.
    Oh goody, I do love it when anything, minor and major, is reason to abolish the licence fee. As regular as clockwork, if they make something too prominent, or not prominent enough, (and half the time such complaints are bigots as 'hidden' stories are reasonably prominent etc), if an Entertainment presenter says something stupid, if they send too many people or not enough people to an event, come rain or shine, it's time to abolish the licence fee.

    The nearest thing I can equate it to is Scottish nationalists. Everything, no matter what, becomes justification for the outcome desired, so there may well be plenty of sense behind the position, maybe it is the best idea, but when everything is treated with equal seriousness - be it a luvvie being stupid, too many puff pieces or actual bias or incompetence - it somewhat undermines the message outside the core, since that's always the message.

    See also 'the NHS is in crisis' (when isn't it?).

    Nice reply. I think my biggest gripe with the BBC is the way they spend their sports rights budget. They insist on buying rights to events that are on the crown jewels list. MotD and Wimbledon would be free to air television even if the BBC didn't bid for them. Yet the BBC still spend an extraordinary amount on these rights to keep them off ITV/Channel 4/5 etc. The Open Championship, which isn't on the list, was ditched by the BBC over a far smaller amount of money.

    Now you might argue that the Crown Jewels list needs updating/abolishing, but the BBC's should care more about keeping more sport on free to air television rather than securing events that they think should be on the BBC rather than a commercial free to air rival.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,593
    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:

    ydoethur said:

    surbiton said:

    Another point: High tariff item. What will stop the importer having it pass through Ireland into Northern Ireland ?

    Other way around, surely? Traditionally Britain has always been very suspicious of tariffs, and it's unlikely we will impose high ones, or even be in a position to do so given the amount of external trading we will need to do after leaving the EU.

    However, the EU has always had very high tariffs on a number of things, especially food, to protect its main customers and force the single market more firmly together.

    Therefore, if there are controls it is likely to be the EU trying to protect its own barriers to entry and avoid say, American or Indian companies sending their goods tariff free into the EU via Belfast and Londonderry. Although neither we nor the Irish will like it, I'm not sure there's much we can do particularly if they decide to play silly buggers in the exit negotiations.
    So, the logical conclusion of your perfectly well thought out point is that there cannot be a "customs arrangement" between the UK and the EU precisely because of the above. Otherwise, it will be a smugglers charter.
    Which was my point. But the customs barriers will be imposed by the EU, not us. Neither the British nor the Irish are going to impose them unilaterally. (Also I'm not sure I'd call legally bringing goods into one country and legally transferring them to a second country as 'smuggling'.)

    I'm also slightly puzzled (albeit also flattered, of course) that you felt the need to respond to it twice. Just one minor correction to your first point - I am not English. The clue is in the user name...
    The border between the North and the rest or Ireland is completely open. Already a smugglers paradise - see Slab Murphy et. al.

    The problem for the EU would be that in the event of putting tariffs on UK goods the boom in cross border.... traffic would be immense. And once in Ireland, the goods would be almost impossible to stop.

    The immigration issue is pretty much a non-issue. A number of people smugglers have tried getting people into Ireland and pointing them in the direction of the border. Once in NI, they have found there is a small, small problem. Leaving NI to get to the main land. Without valid papers which allow you to be in NI in the first place, getting on a plane or a boat just doesn't happen. The border at the NI ports and Belfast airport works - simply because it has to.. to keep track of certain amusing people.

    Being a permanent resident of Portadown strangely fails to appeal to the "refugees".
This discussion has been closed.