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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The return of Butskellism

SystemSystem Posts: 12,264
edited February 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The return of Butskellism

On seeing Sarah Bernhardt play Cleopatra a Victorian matron exclaimed: “How different, how very different, from the home life of our own dear Queen!”  Leave supporters might voice similar sentiments about the very different ways in which Theresa May and Donald Trump have chosen to capitalise on their respective ascents to power.

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    First! :smiley:
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    Second! Like UKIP in Stoke....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    Interesting article, but, as ever, Mr Meeks can only see through the prism of a defeated remainer, to the point of swallowing opposition lines whole:

    reneging on previous commitments to take in child refugees

    We have taken child refugees. We will continue to take child refugees - but from places where they are in potential danger - refugee camps in Turkey - not in prosperous western democracies like France.

    Unlike Angela Merkel, British Prime Ministers have wisely not facilitated people smugglers and their trade.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    In British historical terms, what Theresa May seems to be setting up post-Brexit is a return to the post-war consensus......, where the two parties basically agreed on leftish economics

    What percentage of the economy will return to State Control then?

    Telecoms? Airlines? Railways? Electricity? Gas? Water? Car production? Aircraft Production? Buses? Shipbuilding? Airports? Coal? Railways? Canals? Parcels? Post Office? National Grid? Rolls Royce? Thomas Cook?

    And how, exactly, are all these re-nationalisations going to be paid for?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    edited February 2017
    CarlottaVance said:

    Interesting article, but, as ever, Mr Meeks can only see through the prism of a defeated remainer, to the point of swallowing opposition lines whole:

    reneging on previous commitments to take in child refugees

    We have taken child refugees. We will continue to take child refugees - but from places where they are in potential danger - refugee camps in Turkey - not in prosperous western democracies like France.

    Unlike Angela Merkel, British Prime Ministers have wisely not facilitated people smugglers and their trade.

    +1. And let's be clear isn't Mr. Meeks fibbing in his last sentence? Further, I see no evidence of May rowing back on social liberalism at all. On child refugees it's amusing to see the hand wringers hugging the smuggling gangs in their ghastly embrace.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Alternative First
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Is this a serious return to butskellism? Not sure I am convinced but quite willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, for the time being at least. And in the absence of any other credible options.
    Is the left wing economic policy a way of simply building a majority for hard brexit whereupon the tories will then return to business as usual? Possibly.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    Just don't agree with this analysis. In reality Osborne was a long way from "dry as dust". He inherited a truly disastrous deficit but sought to reduce it pragmatically focused on achieving growth and higher employment. So when the EZ underperformed year after year he let his targets slide rather than doubling down on cuts. Hammond is doing no more than following in his footsteps, responding to a "shock" that does not seem to exist (so far).

    Osborne substantially increased the share of tax paid by the well off, relied almost exclusively on additional tax take for deficit reduction and actually reduced inequality in wages. Hammond may struggle to match such a record. Early days but he seems a much more conventional Conservative to me.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    nielh said:

    business as usual?

    "back to basics"? :)
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    This made me smile - the media keeps changing their story

    Caleb Hines
    @ScottAdamsSays You inspired me to write this: https://t.co/Xd3hqGLviJ
  • madasafishmadasafish Posts: 659
    "With Philip Hammond, she has quietly junked the economic machismo. The projected fiscal tightening has been completely abandoned"

    Err NO!

    Council settlements are such that £billions of cuts are needed by 2020.

    Sorry but this reads like wishful thinking.....
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Wow, I thought that was going to be signed Don Brind...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,295
    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Mortimer said:

    Wow, I thought that was going to be signed Don Brind...

    lol - me too.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    Lol @ Mortimer

    Whilst I agree with others that the conclusion in the lead doesn't really fit, there is nevertheless something in the fact that the Conservatives have used the changed atmosphere after Brexit to abandon their approach to the economy that previously had been both rigid and the centrepiece of their pitch ('long term economic plan'). And that May has said (actions still being in short supply) that she will adopt a new focus based on addresssing various of the growing inequalities. These changes in emphasis are indeed a long way from the more right-wing approach to the economy that many expected/feared following on from Brexit, and also reduce the territory left to the opposition on the economy.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Since when did refugees need to be 'rescued' from France - cradle of civilisation - heart of the tolerant and liberal EU. If only Yvette Cooper could actually stop and think instead of emoting the eyes out of her head.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,257
    Lol. Tony Blair.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Since when did refugees need to be 'rescued' from France - cradle of civilisation - heart of the tolerant and liberal EU. If only Yvette Cooper could actually stop and think instead of emoting the eyes out of her head.
    You say that, but then you remember they are stuck in France. Let the poor buggers in I say! :p
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,257
    On topic, the Cameron/Osborne administration was fiscally conservative, but not economically dry as dust.

    I have no doubt Osborne would have liked to have been "drier" had he had the political options to do so, but, without it, he was happy to adopt whatever policy stance he felt improved the Conservative's tactical position and his own for the leadership.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,944
    Good local election night for Other/Residents with gains from LibDem and Tory.
    LibDem hold, 2 Lab holds and a Green gain from UKIP
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Yes, you have a fair point that what has been abandoned is more their over-arching explanation/spin for their position on the economy, rather than its reality, The published government figures show 'balancing the books' to be further away than ever, but then it was obvious that the big gap in the finances that Osborne deliberately pushed to the back of the current parliament was never going to be bridgeable. Brexit and a change at the top has allowed the Tories to escape from a situation that would have been dicey for the previous crew.

    Nevertheless the country's finances do remain in a precarious position with no obvious escape route from ever rising indebtedness, matched by our shockingly high levels of private debt as consumers continue to spend.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    IanB2 said:

    Lol @ Mortimer

    Whilst I agree with others that the conclusion in the lead doesn't really fit, there is nevertheless something in the fact that the Conservatives have used the changed atmosphere after Brexit to abandon their approach to the economy that previously had been both rigid and the centrepiece of their pitch ('long term economic plan'). And that May has said (actions still being in short supply) that she will adopt a new focus based on addresssing various of the growing inequalities. These changes in emphasis are indeed a long way from the more right-wing approach to the economy that many expected/feared following on from Brexit, and also reduce the territory left to the opposition on the economy.

    Spot on. And of course Al's tuning to political position is recovering from the Brexit prism - there is much electoral catnip in May's stance. My analysis would be:

    Many people have been severely let down by governments since time immemorial. Rampant neoliberalism has come to hurt the futures of our post industrial friends in the north, Rampant social liberalisation (or rather the metropolitan elites desire to rub britain's nose in it) has added to the feelings of alienation.

    I see Mayism as a way to counter the hardships, rather than reversing either trend. It isnt Thathcherism nor Butskilism; given the next five years are dominated by Brexit and aftermath, it does however leave both as an option in case it is necessary. In short, it is the return to political strategy over political tactics.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    RobD said:

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Since when did refugees need to be 'rescued' from France - cradle of civilisation - heart of the tolerant and liberal EU. If only Yvette Cooper could actually stop and think instead of emoting the eyes out of her head.
    You say that, but then you remember they are stuck in France. Let the poor buggers in I say! :p
    It is amusing that those who praise the EU so much think it is essential that Britain rescues refugees from... err..the EU!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    Casino_Royale said:

    Lol. Tony Blair.

    remember you'll be crying out for more when he stops
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    logical_song said:

    Good local election night for Other/Residents with gains from LibDem and Tory.
    LibDem hold, 2 Lab holds and a Green gain from UKIP

    The LibDems must have somewhere else to be making telephone calls right now.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    felix said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Since when did refugees need to be 'rescued' from France - cradle of civilisation - heart of the tolerant and liberal EU. If only Yvette Cooper could actually stop and think instead of emoting the eyes out of her head.
    You say that, but then you remember they are stuck in France. Let the poor buggers in I say! :p
    It is amusing that those who praise the EU so much think it is essential that Britain rescues refugees from... err..the EU!
    and that they want to invite them in to a racist, homophobic, islamophobic, 1950s, backwardlooking etc. adnauseam country

    what have they got against the refugees?
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017
    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Since when did refugees need to be 'rescued' from France - cradle of civilisation - heart of the tolerant and liberal EU. If only Yvette Cooper could actually stop and think instead of emoting the eyes out of her head.
    Rescue from France Mr Meeks ? Let us remember for a moment what Andrew Neil had to say about France at the time if the Paris Attack.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIKg3Qexn7U

    That France ?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Alanbrooke said:

    felix said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Since when did refugees need to be 'rescued' from France - cradle of civilisation - heart of the tolerant and liberal EU. If only Yvette Cooper could actually stop and think instead of emoting the eyes out of her head.
    You say that, but then you remember they are stuck in France. Let the poor buggers in I say! :p
    It is amusing that those who praise the EU so much think it is essential that Britain rescues refugees from... err..the EU!
    and that they want to invite them in to a racist, homophobic, islamophobic, 1950s, backwardlooking etc. adnauseam country

    what have they got against the refugees?
    Maybe they just don't do irony. :)
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    After the fuss over supposed anti-Semitism by PewDiePie, I watched his rebuttal video

    It's a very familiar story. I'd never heard of him, and he's got 53 million subscribers!!

    I felt rather a lot of sympathy for him.

    PewDiePie
    I know it takes a second to consume a headline. But I would really appreciate anyone taking the time to watch this: https://t.co/fe70SDDFdi
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,387
    Casino_Royale said:

    Lol. Tony Blair.

    He has totally lost it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,257
    SandyRentool said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Lol. Tony Blair.

    He has totally lost it.
    Enough of talking. It is time, now, to do.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    SandyRentool said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Lol. Tony Blair.

    He has totally lost it.
    or maybe there's just more money blagging the EU than making "peace" in the Middle East
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,646
    Tony needs to found a new party, pull the left from the Conservatives, the right from Labour and with Nick Clegg as leader. I can only dream. An 'Alternative for Britain' as it were.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    To think they used to say Blair courted popularity. Will be interesting to see what happens. There's always a chance with Blair he might pull it off.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,889
    logical_song said:

    Good local election night for Other/Residents with gains from LibDem and Tory.
    LibDem hold, 2 Lab holds and a Green gain from UKIP

    I do like the idea of the Greens taking a seat off UKIP. The local dynamics must be ‘interesting’ to say the least!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    AlsoIndigo said:

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Since when did refugees need to be 'rescued' from France - cradle of civilisation - heart of the tolerant and liberal EU. If only Yvette Cooper could actually stop and think instead of emoting the eyes out of her head.
    Rescue from France Mr Meeks ? Let us remember for a moment what Andrew Neil had to say about France at the time if the Paris Attack.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIKg3Qexn7U

    That France ?
    Andrew Neil is truly a national treasure.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,257
    Further, it is not accurate to say that fiscal tightening has been 'upended completely' or 'completely abandoned'.

    The target date for balancing the books has simply been moved out to reflect changing circumstance, as Osborne himself did many times.

    This is a case of the rhetoric not matching the reality.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,164
    AlsoIndigo said:

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Since when did refugees need to be 'rescued' from France - cradle of civilisation - heart of the tolerant and liberal EU. If only Yvette Cooper could actually stop and think instead of emoting the eyes out of her head.
    Rescue from France Mr Meeks ? Let us remember for a moment what Andrew Neil had to say about France at the time if the Paris Attack.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIKg3Qexn7U

    That France ?
    Never seen that video before. I profoundly disagree with it though. Victor Hugo is rubbish. :wink:
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,412
    Well I quite enjoyed the thread header. I agree that many of the things May has said on economics could have come from Ed M.

    Where I differ from Mr. Meeks is I think most of these changes are largely symbolic - at least at the moment. A few comments about citizens of the world etc... It doesn't really amount to a meaningful policy difference... Just different messaging I think.

    She is I think totally commited to reducing immigration - but I think that's more because it's a vulnerability for her give her time at the Home Office... And the fact that she thinks it's what he public really wants.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    Casino_Royale said:

    Further, it is not accurate to say that fiscal tightening has been 'upended completely' or 'completely abandoned'.

    The target date for balancing the books has simply been moved out to reflect changing circumstance, as Osborne himself did many times.

    This is a case of the rhetoric not matching the reality.

    That's exactly what I said and the reality is that the deficit is going to be down about £13bn this year. If we kept that rate up we will come seriously close to balancing the budget in this Parliament after all. I expect Hammond to prove more fiscally conservative than Osborne was. He just doesn't come close to having the same imagination or breadth of vision. Some might say that dull is an attribute in your Chancellor of course.
  • TwistedFireStopperTwistedFireStopper Posts: 2,538
    I'm struggling with the child refugees in France conundrum a bit. This week, The Guardian had an article blaming the British government for rapes, murders and child abuse at a refugee centre in Dunkirk. Whilst that is absolutely awful news, and I won't be so crass as to say "none of our business", it does make me wonder why the outrage isn't directed at the Europeans a bit more.
    I was never a big fan of Cameron's, but I think his policy of helping refugees at source was the right one, and far more effective than the chaos in the EU.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,990
    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Since when did refugees need to be 'rescued' from France - cradle of civilisation - heart of the tolerant and liberal EU. If only Yvette Cooper could actually stop and think instead of emoting the eyes out of her head.
    1940.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,889
    ydoethur said:

    AlsoIndigo said:

    felix said:

    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Since when did refugees need to be 'rescued' from France - cradle of civilisation - heart of the tolerant and liberal EU. If only Yvette Cooper could actually stop and think instead of emoting the eyes out of her head.
    Rescue from France Mr Meeks ? Let us remember for a moment what Andrew Neil had to say about France at the time if the Paris Attack.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIKg3Qexn7U

    That France ?
    Never seen that video before. I profoundly disagree with it though. Victor Hugo is rubbish. :wink:
    He left out De Gaulle!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,164
    OldKingCole said:



    He left out De Gaulle!

    So it wasn't all bad!
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Tony Blair is a real aspirational person. Perhaps this move is the first small step of a larger plan. Once he manages to reverse the referendum, he can move on to more difficult challenges like never having been ousted as leader of the Labour Party, then persuading people that he never supported the war in Iraq. Truly the age of Doublethink has arrived.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,367

    Tony is merely being consistent, he's a 'butter' - "I accept the result of the referendum but ... It was the wrong result, so I demand more referendums until we get the correct result."

    It's on a par with "Even if we are accepting 3,000 child refugees, they must be from France. We have to encourage many more to make the potentially fatal trip, so we can show how concerned we are."

    We have to accept that some people are barmy and pander to them a little. That Guardian won't read itself.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    SeanT said:

    Just the most complete bullshit. Asinine, slanted, misinformed, delusional crap from beginning to end. This is why people still pay for newspapers but PB has to give it away for free. Dreadful.

    A word of professional journalistic advice to the editors: this should be Meeks' last threader for quite a while. Until Brexit is done and he calms down, he should be sidelined. He begins to undermine the brand.

    Readers will drift away.

    Healthy political difference with engaged and informed debate on the consequences are what bring people to the site.

    Vulgar, crude and bullying responses are what drive people away.
  • TwistedFireStopperTwistedFireStopper Posts: 2,538
    I see Tony is hoping that the same people who were burning his effigy and shouting "Tony Blair-war criminal " are now going to be throwing petals in his path and crying "Tony Blair we love EU ".
  • Robert_Of_SheffieldRobert_Of_Sheffield Posts: 207
    In the Stoke by-election the Liberals have complained about pro-Labour propaganda which may qualify as 'undue spiritual influence' - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/16/stoke-byelection-lib-dems-alert-police-over-text-urging-muslims-to-vote-labour

    Would they be prepared to go to court over this?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited February 2017
    There is a terrible picture of Mrs May on the BBC website .. almost as bad as Ed with the burger!
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38985466/awkward-photos-of-politicians-with-school-children-there-are-many
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SeanT said:

    Just the most complete bullshit. Asinine, slanted, misinformed, delusional crap from beginning to end. This is why people still pay for newspapers but PB has to give it away for free. Dreadful.

    A word of professional journalistic advice to the editors: this should be Meeks' last threader for quite a while. Until Brexit is done and he calms down, he should be sidelined. He begins to undermine the brand.

    Readers will drift away.

    Agreed. I used to look forward to @ANTIFRANK @davidherdson and @HenryGManson as more thoughtful weekly pieces to complement the regular flow of insightful gobbets.

    @DonBrind and @AlastairMeeks not so much.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,412
    SquareRoot said:

    There is a terrible picture of Mrs May on the BBC website .. almost as bad as Ed with the burger!
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38985466/awkward-photos-of-politicians-with-school-children-there-are-many

    I feel a little sorry for politicians when the photo ops with kids go wrong.
    Still it's a sign of a free society we can have a little laugh at the sillyness....
  • Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Mortimer said:

    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020. Whether they should be trying harder to meet this target than the feeble Osborne is another matter. But Mr Meeks is talking complete bollocks to think that May and Hammond are any more profligate than their predecessors.

    On child refugees, I did wonder if the government was being a bit cynical when they let in those "children" back in October. Some of those migrants were clearly not children and I wonder if the government wanted to leave the impression that most of these people aren't children so nobody is going to get too upset when the government refuses to take any more.

    People on the Left should have spotted this. Instead of jumping up and down showing outrage towards The Sun, they should have called the government out for what they were doing.

    Quite:

    - In France
    - Largely older teens
    - Doesn't discourage people smuggling
    - Far higher priority need in the regional camps near Syria

    I wonder if this has not gained traction as an issue because the media have begun to learn that liberal handwringing doesn't fool most of the people now.
    Liberals are EVIL!! Slay them :o Blood! Blood! Can never shed too much leftie blood, you know...

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,257
    Gallowgate said:

    Tony needs to found a new party, pull the left from the Conservatives, the right from Labour and with Nick Clegg as leader. I can only dream. An 'Alternative for Britain' as it were.

    Your dream is my nightmare.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,257
    SquareRoot said:

    There is a terrible picture of Mrs May on the BBC website .. almost as bad as Ed with the burger!
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38985466/awkward-photos-of-politicians-with-school-children-there-are-many

    That newsbeat article cracks me up. Right down to the 'Obama: what a hero" conclusion.

    Maybe the BBC should install a bust of his head in the Director General's office.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Sheffield, they should, assuming the claims are genuine. Voting by religion is despicable, immoral and (I think) illegal.

    Mr. Stopper, I usually skim the general news and F1 front pages on the BBC before posting and was somewhat surprised to see the skeletal prophet's foretelling. Here's the first line:
    "Tony Blair is to announce his "mission" to persuade Britons to "rise up" and change their minds on Brexit."

    Part-religious zealot, part anti-democratic revolutionary, espoused by a former PM most famous for making interesting comments to persuade the House of Commons into going to war.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38996179

    On-topic: not sure I agree. We don't hear much on the economy now but that's largely because another issue dominates the political landscape.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    What happens when you don't meet your Nato commitment of 2% of your GDP on defence:

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/raf-transport-french-equipment-mali-counter-insurgency-operations
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,925
    ' David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. '

    Dear me.

    What part of triple lock pensions, the house price subsidies of help to buy, throwing money at political problems and borrowing hundreds of billions more than you said you would is 'economically dry as dust' ?

    A comparison of Osborne's borrowing predictions in his more recent Budgets suggests something other than 'eye-watering fiscal discipline':

    March 2015 - borrowing predicted to total £115bn between 2015/16 and 2019/20
    July 2015 - borrowing predicted to total £133bn between 2015/16 and 2019/20
    November 2015 - borrowing predicted to total £143bn between 2015/16 and 2019/20
    March 2016 - borrowing predicted to total £178bn between 2016/16 and 2019/20

    In reality the actual borrowing between 2015/16 and 2019/20 would have been way over £200bn.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    edited February 2017
    another_richard said:

    ' David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. '

    Dear me.

    What part of triple lock pensions, the house price subsidies of help to buy, throwing money at political problems and borrowing hundreds of billions more than you said you would is 'economically dry as dust' ?

    A comparison of Osborne's borrowing predictions in his more recent Budgets suggests something other than 'eye-watering fiscal discipline':

    March 2015 - borrowing predicted to total £115bn between 2015/16 and 2019/20
    July 2015 - borrowing predicted to total £133bn between 2015/16 and 2019/20
    November 2015 - borrowing predicted to total £143bn between 2015/16 and 2019/20
    March 2016 - borrowing predicted to total £178bn between 2016/16 and 2019/20

    In reality the actual borrowing between 2015/16 and 2019/20 would have been way over £200bn.

    Osborne's genius was talking dry whilst actually following the fiscal plans of the opposition (which themselves were dry, seen in a historical context). His fatal weakness, like his predecessor, was solving every problem with complicated politically-motivated fixes that largely kicked the can down the road. The gap he left in the projected finances for 2019 was always going to be somebody's undoing.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,925
    TwistedFireStopper said:

    I see Tony is hoping that the same people who were burning his effigy and shouting "Tony Blair-war criminal " are now going to be throwing petals in his path and crying "Tony Blair we love EU ".

    Maybe he's hoping that JPMorgan will give him another few million.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    I do hope they get through to the finals of Eurovision

    English Russia
    Don't ask https://t.co/H2Zn8ssdaU
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    edited February 2017
    Main site is down for me...

    Edit: ah, working again.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,968
    Blair really is a pillock.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I see that pb's Tories are divided between those who are furious at the suggestion that the present government is less than dry, those who are furious at the suggestion that the last government was ever dry and those who are just furious.

    Meanwhile, my main point that the government has pivoted from differentiating itself on the economy to differentiating itself on social conservatism goes largely unanswered.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    RobD said:

    Main site is down for me...

    Edit: ah, working again.

    Up for me but it took an age to load. Yes, something is poorly.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,889
    ydoethur said:

    OldKingCole said:



    He left out De Gaulle!

    So it wasn't all bad!
    You have cheered up, haven’t you!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Incidentally, the BBC News at Ten managed to report on Nuttall's Hillsborouh exaggeration two nights running but accidentally totally forgot to mention the Vote Snell or go to Hell texts. There's a thing.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    GeoffM said:

    RobD said:

    Main site is down for me...

    Edit: ah, working again.

    Up for me but it took an age to load. Yes, something is poorly.
    Things refreshing smoothly on this end now. I do like to use the main site so that ad revenue flows into OGH's coffers.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    AlastairMeeks said:

    I see that pb's Tories are divided between those who are furious at the suggestion that the present government is less than dry, those who are furious at the suggestion that the last government was ever dry and those who are just furious.

    Meanwhile, my main point that the government has pivoted from differentiating itself on the economy to differentiating itself on social conservatism goes largely unanswered.

    Because it's not interesting?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    edited February 2017
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Incidentally, the BBC News at Ten managed to report on Nuttall's Hillsborouh exaggeration two nights running but accidentally totally forgot to mention the Vote Snell or go to Hell texts. There's a thing.

    Maybe their lawyers said they shouldn't in case it does go to court? I don't think the whereabouts of HRH Nuttall will ever be the subject of a legal challenge.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Journalists have lost their minds Part 94

    Vice
    White supremacists do not own my haircut: https://t.co/6SXyKjzgfs https://t.co/DXNfiCQpbl
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    I only just saw that and then realised to the point of the post.
    Casino_Royale said:

    SquareRoot said:

    There is a terrible picture of Mrs May on the BBC website .. almost as bad as Ed with the burger!
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/38985466/awkward-photos-of-politicians-with-school-children-there-are-many

    That newsbeat article cracks me up. Right down to the 'Obama: what a hero" conclusion.

    Maybe the BBC should install a bust of his head in the Director General's office.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. D, hmm. I know reporting is strictly limited for a court case, but is it also when there's been a complaint but no arrest, charge or prosecution?

    Maybe you're right. After all, the BBC was notoriously low-key when Cliff Richard's house was being searched.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    PlatoSaid said:

    Journalists have lost their minds Part 94

    Vice
    White supremacists do not own my haircut: https://t.co/6SXyKjzgfs https://t.co/DXNfiCQpbl

    Just to think, someone actually sat down and wrote that....
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    RobD said:

    GeoffM said:

    RobD said:

    Main site is down for me...

    Edit: ah, working again.

    Up for me but it took an age to load. Yes, something is poorly.
    Things refreshing smoothly on this end now. I do like to use the main site so that ad revenue flows into OGH's coffers.
    Yes, whatever happened has stopped happening - which is good!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,968
    CarlottaVance said:

    What happens when you don't meet your Nato commitment of 2% of your GDP on defence:

    https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/raf-transport-french-equipment-mali-counter-insurgency-operations

    That doesn't necessarily follow. It'll be interesting to know *why* the RAF are being used.

    According to (1), France's military spending is 2.1% of GDP in 2015. According to (2), it will be 1.77% this year. As in the UK, it appears to depend on what you include in the figures.

    (1): http://www.tradingeconomics.com/france/military-expenditure-percent-of-gdp-wb-data.html
    (2): http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/21/france-must-increase-defence-spending-2pc-gdp-2020-warns-chief/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. D, hmm. I know reporting is strictly limited for a court case, but is it also when there's been a complaint but no arrest, charge or prosecution?

    Maybe you're right. After all, the BBC was notoriously low-key when Cliff Richard's house was being searched.

    Heh, cheeky!

    A fair point about it not usually being an issue *prior* to arrest/charge, was just trying to give the BBC the benefit of the doubt.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,227
    AlastairMeeks said:

    I see that pb's Tories are divided between those who are furious at the suggestion that the present government is less than dry, those who are furious at the suggestion that the last government was ever dry and those who are just furious.

    Meanwhile, my main point that the government has pivoted from differentiating itself on the economy to differentiating itself on social conservatism goes largely unanswered.

    I don't see any sign of a new social conservatism either, Alastair. Whilst not as obviously liberal as Cameron there are few signs of change. The attempt with grammar schools seems to have been abandoned without much of a fight.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,295
    @another_richard - I thought you'd like this piece by Mr Meeks!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Charles said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    I see that pb's Tories are divided between those who are furious at the suggestion that the present government is less than dry, those who are furious at the suggestion that the last government was ever dry and those who are just furious.

    Meanwhile, my main point that the government has pivoted from differentiating itself on the economy to differentiating itself on social conservatism goes largely unanswered.

    Because it's not interesting?
    If you don't find the downplaying of the main dividing line at the last election interesting, a political website might not be for you.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,295
    AlastairMeeks said:

    I see that pb's Tories are divided between those who are furious at the suggestion that the present government is less than dry, those who are furious at the suggestion that the last government was ever dry and those who are just furious.

    Meanwhile, my main point that the government has pivoted from differentiating itself on the economy to differentiating itself on social conservatism goes largely unanswered.

    Why don't you address some of the points made by posters including @DavidL, @Casino_Royale and @another_richard.

    Yes, clearly the current government is less concerned about positioning themselves for the next election. Perhaps that will change as we approach 2020, but right now they have a job to do. @Casino_Royale's observation that Osborne might have liked to have been drier but was more concerned with political positioning is spot on.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    AlastairMeeks said:


    Meanwhile, my main point that the government has pivoted from differentiating itself on the economy to differentiating itself on social conservatism goes largely unanswered.

    it is social conservatism, or just about immigration? no change likely on abortion, gay marriage etc. or is there?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @AlastairMeeks

    I'm struggling to note the "social conservatism" or Merkel like Christian Democrat theme within the May administration that you report on. Perhaps you'd care to expand?

    To my mind PM May is the arch pragmatist. Her government will be judged on the ability to make BREXIT a success and steer the nation through the continuing economic difficulties. Her cause considerably aided by the fractured and rank piss poor opposition.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,925
    AlastairMeeks said:

    I see that pb's Tories are divided between those who are furious at the suggestion that the present government is less than dry, those who are furious at the suggestion that the last government was ever dry and those who are just furious.

    Meanwhile, my main point that the government has pivoted from differentiating itself on the economy to differentiating itself on social conservatism goes largely unanswered.

    Looks like you've been caught out talking crap and are now trying to cover it by labelling people with what you regard as a derogatory name ie 'pb Tories'.

    The Conservatives will still be differentiating themselves economically from Labour at the next election just as they differentiated themselves socially from Labour at the last election.

    The strategy remains the same - 'we'll take it from them and give it to you'.

    The difference is that the 'you' the Conservatives will be aiming for will be less metro middle class and more medium town working class.

    But that's a process which was already underway - in 2015 the Conservatives were aiming less at the metro middle class and more at the medium town working class than they were in 2010. And even in 2010 the Conservatives were aiming less at the metro middle class and more at the medium town working class than they were in the first years of Cameron's leadership.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830
    tlg86 said:

    David Cameron and George Osborne had run an administration that was in the main socially fairly liberal but economically dry as dust. The 2015 election was fought on the basis of the Conservatives offering eye-watering financial discipline for the current Parliament in order to generate a budgetary surplus and then branding Labour as profligate for failing to match this. The Conservatives’ election victory was fought and won on austerity.

    They may have fought an election on austerity, but they sure as hell weren't governing like that. May and Hammond have just stopped pretending that they were going to eradicate the deficit by 2020.

    Yes, it was as close to a direct lie as you usually get, they had a general intent to reduce the deficit but either it was not possible or they weren't prepared to take painful decisions once the low hanging fruit had gone, and there was no way it was happening.
    TwistedFireStopper said:

    I'm struggling with the child refugees in France conundrum a bit. This week, The Guardian had an article blaming the British government for rapes, murders and child abuse at a refugee centre in Dunkirk. Whilst that is absolutely awful news, and I won't be so crass as to say "none of our business", it does make me wonder why the outrage isn't directed at the Europeans a bit more.
    I was never a big fan of Cameron's, but I think his policy of helping refugees at source was the right one, and far more effective than the chaos in the EU.

    Agreed. I don't actually have an issue with taking genuine children from France, I think with children we can look past any other concerns, but France is a great place, it's not some terrible nation one would fear to take refuge in.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    AlastairMeeks said:

    I see that pb's Tories are divided between those who are furious at the suggestion that the present government is less than dry, those who are furious at the suggestion that the last government was ever dry and those who are just furious.

    Meanwhile, my main point that the government has pivoted from differentiating itself on the economy to differentiating itself on social conservatism goes largely unanswered.

    CCHQ has not yet sent out the approved line for astroturfers to take?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    Charles said:

    SeanT said:

    Just the most complete bullshit. Asinine, slanted, misinformed, delusional crap from beginning to end. This is why people still pay for newspapers but PB has to give it away for free. Dreadful.

    A word of professional journalistic advice to the editors: this should be Meeks' last threader for quite a while. Until Brexit is done and he calms down, he should be sidelined. He begins to undermine the brand.

    Readers will drift away.

    Agreed. I used to look forward to @ANTIFRANK @davidherdson and @HenryGManson as more thoughtful weekly pieces to complement the regular flow of insightful gobbets.

    @DonBrind and @AlastairMeeks not so much.
    I'm sure there are places on the internet you can go where everyone agrees with you, Charles.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    I believe the Tories are still planning to achieve a budget surplus - just more slowly. Labour a planning to spend, spend, spend. There is hugely more than a cigarette paper between the two philosophies. Notably, pushing through on Brexit will necessarily make the UK a more commercial competitive enterprise in the long run. Personally I see the Tories as still on the right side of the divide economically whereas any Labour pol you see on telly is only ever saying we need much more spending. On social matters May seems more to reflect society than to wish to metrosexualise it as Dave did. Shock horror - both economically and socially the vicar's daughter is a conservative. Who'd a thunk it?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    Charles said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    I see that pb's Tories are divided between those who are furious at the suggestion that the present government is less than dry, those who are furious at the suggestion that the last government was ever dry and those who are just furious.

    Meanwhile, my main point that the government has pivoted from differentiating itself on the economy to differentiating itself on social conservatism goes largely unanswered.

    Because it's not interesting?
    It is at the very centre of informed political debate today.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,968
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    SeanT said:

    Just the most complete bullshit. Asinine, slanted, misinformed, delusional crap from beginning to end. This is why people still pay for newspapers but PB has to give it away for free. Dreadful.

    A word of professional journalistic advice to the editors: this should be Meeks' last threader for quite a while. Until Brexit is done and he calms down, he should be sidelined. He begins to undermine the brand.

    Readers will drift away.

    Agreed. I used to look forward to @ANTIFRANK @davidherdson and @HenryGManson as more thoughtful weekly pieces to complement the regular flow of insightful gobbets.

    @DonBrind and @AlastairMeeks not so much.
    I'm sure there are places on the internet you can go where everyone agrees with you, Charles.
    Where do the establishment hang out on t'Internet? I'm sure Charles would know... ;)
  • wasdwasd Posts: 276
    edited February 2017
    RobD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Journalists have lost their minds Part 94

    Vice
    White supremacists do not own my haircut: https://t.co/6SXyKjzgfs https://t.co/DXNfiCQpbl

    Just to think, someone actually sat down and wrote that....
    And, presumably, cleared at least part of their rent with the proceeds. It's boyband journalism, nothing more.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,830
    edited February 2017
    AlastairMeeks said:

    I see that pb's Tories are divided between those who are furious at the suggestion that the present government is less than dry, those who are furious at the suggestion that the last government was ever dry and those who are just furious.

    Meanwhile, my main point that the government has pivoted from differentiating itself on the economy to differentiating itself on social conservatism goes largely unanswered.

    It's mainly true, at least in the mood music, we shall see in the long run if in practicalities it changes all that much, even as much as it claims to. Though more it's added more social stuff than abandoned its message about the economy.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited February 2017
    The PB Traffic Wardens wouldn't have let him off... Rules is rules

    Imagine if he stands for UKIP? "Ukip candidate is food thief!!!"

    https://twitter.com/dailymailuk/status/832503773624954880
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111
    JosiasJessop said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    SeanT said:

    Just the most complete bullshit. Asinine, slanted, misinformed, delusional crap from beginning to end. This is why people still pay for newspapers but PB has to give it away for free. Dreadful.

    A word of professional journalistic advice to the editors: this should be Meeks' last threader for quite a while. Until Brexit is done and he calms down, he should be sidelined. He begins to undermine the brand.

    Readers will drift away.

    Agreed. I used to look forward to @ANTIFRANK @davidherdson and @HenryGManson as more thoughtful weekly pieces to complement the regular flow of insightful gobbets.

    @DonBrind and @AlastairMeeks not so much.
    I'm sure there are places on the internet you can go where everyone agrees with you, Charles.
    Where do the establishment hang out on t'Internet? I'm sure Charles would know... ;)
    www.afriendofmine.com
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    JosiasJessop said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    SeanT said:

    Just the most complete bullshit. Asinine, slanted, misinformed, delusional crap from beginning to end. This is why people still pay for newspapers but PB has to give it away for free. Dreadful.

    A word of professional journalistic advice to the editors: this should be Meeks' last threader for quite a while. Until Brexit is done and he calms down, he should be sidelined. He begins to undermine the brand.

    Readers will drift away.

    Agreed. I used to look forward to @ANTIFRANK @davidherdson and @HenryGManson as more thoughtful weekly pieces to complement the regular flow of insightful gobbets.

    @DonBrind and @AlastairMeeks not so much.
    I'm sure there are places on the internet you can go where everyone agrees with you, Charles.
    Where do the establishment hang out on t'Internet? I'm sure Charles would know... ;)
    Our Charles hangs out with the establishment in person, he just enjoys mingling with the plebs from time to time on PB :p
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,691
    edited February 2017
    Actually for most people economically Butskellism helped produce modest prosperity and security in the post war period and most of the gains of economic liberalism have gone to the elite, especially in terms of wage growth. May has rightly decided that her best bet politically is to appeal to lower middle-class and working class Leave voters now she has committed to Brexit and immigration controls, if she loses a few upper middle-class Remain backing Cameron voters to the LDs then so be it, there are fewer of them. It is also just deserts for the likes of Daniel Hannan and Steve Hilton and Dominic Cummings and maybe even Gove from Vote Leave who thought they could use working class and lower middle-class votes to slash the size of the state and produce a free trade utopia while throwing them under the bus on immigration once Brexit was achieved. May backed Remain with reservations but after Leave won she is not going to betray those who voted for it
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,147
    isam said:

    The PB Traffic Wardens wouldn't have let him off... Rules is rules

    twitter.com/dailymailuk/status/832503773624954880

    Implying all rule breaches are equal...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,925
    tlg86 said:

    @another_richard - I thought you'd like this piece by Mr Meeks!

    There are parts which are good and the meme of changing Conservative strategy is interesting - though as I said in my last comment I believe that's a process which has been ongoing for years.

    But any suggestion that George Osborne was 'economically dry as dust' after TLP and HTB easily triggers me.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,719
    rkrkrk said:

    Well I quite enjoyed the thread header. I agree that many of the things May has said on economics could have come from Ed M.

    Where I differ from Mr. Meeks is I think most of these changes are largely symbolic - at least at the moment. A few comments about citizens of the world etc... It doesn't really amount to a meaningful policy difference... Just different messaging I think.

    She is I think totally commited to reducing immigration - but I think that's more because it's a vulnerability for her give her time at the Home Office... And the fact that she thinks it's what he public really wants.

    Yes just as she was for 6 years at the Home office, get a grip.
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