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  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    As a long term poster/reader on PB - since about 2007ish I feel there's a lack of genuine feeling amongst many pro-Labour PBers post Tony... I wonder why? Gordon was IMO the worst PM we've had in many decades - his track record as a back bencher just confirms it.

    There's huge fuss and nonsense typed - but little of real substance. OGH has said that the majority of posters are now more Tory-UKIP ish than they were. When Tony was PM - just @Sean_F was keeping the flame burning...

    Polling suggests that after a long period of artificial boom - Joe Public thinks charity should begin and end at home - the figures for a welfare cap just underline this.
    TGOHF said:

    Surprised anyone still plays this stupid game.

    1. Spend the whole day trolling ever more "outrageously" on immigration

    2. Wait until a poster types something which the Guardian would find it "wacist"

    3. Write down the name of that poster and use said comment against them ad naseum until the end of days.

    Walk away people.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    tim said:

    Sounds like you are conceeding the argument.

    Have a good day, and I hope Ed M is reading. He has a plan to give a job to all long term unemployed, perhaps even picking potatoes in Lincolnshire. I hope he does.

    tim said:

    @foxinsox.

    Who would sell drugs in urban areas if you moved all the drug dealers into the countryside?
    Immigrants, that's who.

    I'm not conceding anything (although the drugs industry is a big employer, I think it should be legalised and taxed)

    I'm also in favour of building affordable housing where there are jobs and some forms of time limited benefits.

    But lets get the whole thing into context, there's around 800,000 18-24 year olds NEETS at any one time.
    There are 7.5 million people in the country who were born abroad.

    I know that people on here like to try and focus on one simple part of the discussion but you're talking about 10% of the issue maximum.


    Looks like you've conceded, just admit it with good grace.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    I need some help please,is they any Urdu speakers on PB.

    If so,what is the Urdu word for white ?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,733

    @Alanbrooke



    So they end up with the boring kids who work and we get the creative ones who can't spell or add, it's not really a competition we're going to win, at least not on the economic fundamentals.

    Nope, patent numbers are an irrelevance; it's the quality of the patents that matters.

    The whole point is that PISA is not an objective measure of anything except the ability of kids to pass PISA-related exams. That should not be the goal of any education system worth its salt. Doing well in such exams should, at best, be a welcome by-product (see Finland, rather than China or Singapore).

    well I'll take your point on patents, though I note Germans are pretty good a logging patents too for commercial advantage.

    However if you don't like PISA then consider that circa 20% of our workforce is functionally illiterate and that helps no-one, least of all those caught in the net. And the problem hasn't exactly got better since the days of Bob Hoskins and On The Move.

    It's not that I do not like PISA, it's more that I am wary of it being used as the sole or most important measure of our education system. If you look at other surveys then we score very well:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356

    It would be relatively easy to set up a system designed to ensure we improve our PISA score - we could just do what they do in places such as China, Singapore and Hong Kong. But that would not necessarily produce a workforce more suited to competing internationally. What it would do is make kids' lives more regimented, give them less time to learn for themselves, discourage difficult questions and place less emphasis on individual thought/initiative. To borrow a phrase: as a parent I would not want my kids going through a school system like that.

    As I said, a good PISA rating should be a by-product of a good education system, not the aim of that system - which is why I wish Gove and co would talk more about Finland and less about Singapore and Shanghai.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Given that being paid JSA and being asked to work for a fortnight in Poundsaver in return was met with howls of SLAVE LABOUR by a vocal minority and helped by the BBC - it'll take quite some effort to knock this down.

    I have come to think that the government should not provide unemployment benefits, but should instead guarantee everyone a full-time job at minimum wage. Picking fruit in the countryside would probably be one of the areas which would benefit from this government supplied labour.

    One of the bonuses of such a policy is that it would make enforcement of the minimum wage a lot easier if everyone knew they could get a minimum wage job working for the country, and so this policy could also help to increase wages for the low-paid, as employers currently paying minimum wage would have to compete more strongly to attract labour.

    A pretty feeble excuse. There are plenty of NEETs in the country without families who could easily benefit from some hard work in the sunshine of East Anglia.

    While the immediate skills are not transferrable to work in the cities the work ethic and healthy outdoir lifestyle would do some couch potatoes a world of good.

    Even in the Cheshire farming belt ;-)


  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    @NickPalmer wrote :

    "There's quite a lot of agreement on this thread (skipping plato's oddly grumpy "pin-head" comment to SO ...."

    It's a wee bit rich of you to complain about "Plato" after your acid comments on the royal baby name.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658

    @Alanbrooke



    So they end up with the boring kids who work and we get the creative ones who can't spell or add, it's not really a competition we're going to win, at least not on the economic fundamentals.

    Nope, patent numbers are an irrelevance; it's the quality of the patents that matters.

    The whole point is that PISA is not an objective measure of anything except the ability of kids to pass PISA-related exams. That should not be the goal of any education system worth its salt. Doing well in such exams should, at best, be a welcome by-product (see Finland, rather than China or Singapore).

    well I'll take your point on patents, though I note Germans are pretty good a logging patents too for commercial advantage.

    However if you don't like PISA then consider that circa 20% of our workforce is functionally illiterate and that helps no-one, least of all those caught in the net. And the problem hasn't exactly got better since the days of Bob Hoskins and On The Move.



    As I said, a good PISA rating should be a by-product of a good education system, not the aim of that system - which is why I wish Gove and co would talk more about Finland and less about Singapore and Shanghai.
    yeah all of that SO but that will do nothing for the bottom quartile. The point about surveys like PISA isn't so much the current result as how you use it. Do you take on board you could do better and does it tell you where you need to do better.

    As ever in an english education discussion we get black\white extremes it's either standards or creativity. How about a bit of both ? How about decent education standards which allow for a bit of creativity ? And if we want that we have to up our performance, what;s the point in having wonderfully creative kids if they haven't the self-discipline to express their thoughts for others to understand ? Our problem remains getting the bottom quartile to perform at an adequate level. The english middle classes play class war by other means with education and let the casualties fall forgotten by the wayside.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    An interesting loophole here I hadn't heard about to get around British immigration rules designed to keep out feckless, scrounging Japanese PhDs who try to sneak in by marrying poverty-stricken British women who would make somewhat less than 25k in their first year:

    http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view/new-immigration-laws-hinder-some-married-expats-returning-to-uk

    Apparently the trick is to work in another EU country for 3 months first, then you're coming in from the EU not Japan.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    tim said:

    tim said:

    Sounds like you are conceeding the argument.

    Have a good day, and I hope Ed M is reading. He has a plan to give a job to all long term unemployed, perhaps even picking potatoes in Lincolnshire. I hope he does.

    tim said:

    @foxinsox.

    Who would sell drugs in urban areas if you moved all the drug dealers into the countryside?
    Immigrants, that's who.

    I'm not conceding anything (although the drugs industry is a big employer, I think it should be legalised and taxed)

    I'm also in favour of building affordable housing where there are jobs and some forms of time limited benefits.

    But lets get the whole thing into context, there's around 800,000 18-24 year olds NEETS at any one time.
    There are 7.5 million people in the country who were born abroad.

    I know that people on here like to try and focus on one simple part of the discussion but you're talking about 10% of the issue maximum.


    Looks like you've conceded, just admit it with good grace.

    I've accepted that the PB Tories will spend >90% of their time discussing
    you appear to be struggling with the concept that you are getting older.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Plato said:

    Given that being paid JSA and being asked to work for a fortnight in Poundsaver in return was met with howls of SLAVE LABOUR by a vocal minority and helped by the BBC - it'll take quite some effort to knock this down.

    I have come to think that the government should not provide unemployment benefits, but should instead guarantee everyone a full-time job at minimum wage. Picking fruit in the countryside would probably be one of the areas which would benefit from this government supplied labour.

    One of the bonuses of such a policy is that it would make enforcement of the minimum wage a lot easier if everyone knew they could get a minimum wage job working for the country, and so this policy could also help to increase wages for the low-paid, as employers currently paying minimum wage would have to compete more strongly to attract labour.

    A pretty feeble excuse. There are plenty of NEETs in the country without families who could easily benefit from some hard work in the sunshine of East Anglia.

    While the immediate skills are not transferrable to work in the cities the work ethic and healthy outdoir lifestyle would do some couch potatoes a world of good.

    Even in the Cheshire farming belt ;-)


    Paying them actual minimum wage rather than a smaller amount would probably have muted many of the howls.
  • There used to be a Tour Femme, iirc a lack of interest from sponsors and therefore money made it uneconomic.
    Marriane Vos would win it.
    Apols if this has already been posted.

    Harriet Harman has written to Tour de France director calling for a women's race at the event.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,733
    @Alanbrooke

    I am not sure that PISA focuses on the bottom quartile, but I do agree with you.

    The good news is that at primary level, at least, there has been significant progress since the mid-1990s:

    http://www.poverty.org.uk/25/index.shtml

    If we do want to improve performance one thing not to do is to get rid of programmes - such as the London Challenge - which produce excellent results.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,733
    Polruan said:

    Plato said:

    Given that being paid JSA and being asked to work for a fortnight in Poundsaver in return was met with howls of SLAVE LABOUR by a vocal minority and helped by the BBC - it'll take quite some effort to knock this down.

    I have come to think that the government should not provide unemployment benefits, but should instead guarantee everyone a full-time job at minimum wage. Picking fruit in the countryside would probably be one of the areas which would benefit from this government supplied labour.

    One of the bonuses of such a policy is that it would make enforcement of the minimum wage a lot easier if everyone knew they could get a minimum wage job working for the country, and so this policy could also help to increase wages for the low-paid, as employers currently paying minimum wage would have to compete more strongly to attract labour.

    A pretty feeble excuse. There are plenty of NEETs in the country without families who could easily benefit from some hard work in the sunshine of East Anglia.

    While the immediate skills are not transferrable to work in the cities the work ethic and healthy outdoir lifestyle would do some couch potatoes a world of good.

    Even in the Cheshire farming belt ;-)


    Paying them actual minimum wage rather than a smaller amount would probably have muted many of the howls.

    Well, indeed!

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    2.5 million unemployed + 3.05 million part time workers that want to work more + 1 million people working past normal retirement age.

    Fortunate that he have such a huge pool of labour to meet our employment needs.

    www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20509189‎

    28 Nov 2012 - It says 3.05 million workers want to work more hours each week, out of a total ... "During this period many workers moved from full-time to part-time roles and ... and fewer hours on offer, more people are working part-time.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    tim said:

    New pol on European elections

    Jack Blumenau ‏@jblumenau 11m
    @electionista New EU election poll by LSE: Labour win, UKIP2nd, Tory3rd. But if ballot is open-list, Tories beat UKIP
    http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2013/07/EuropeanElections.aspx

    electionista ‏@electionista 8m
    UK - YouGov/LSE European election poll: LAB 30%, UKIP 25%, CON 23%, GRN 12%, LDEM 10%

    That's with zero media coverage for the Greens. If they could get a bit of wind in their sails resulting in some good polls and a positive-feedback loop we could get something like:
    GRN 24% LAB 20% UKIP 20% Con 20% LDEM 6%
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013

    AveryLP said:

    Not even good news stops coming for a royal baby

    UK Trade & Investment (UKTI) released its 2012-13 "Inward Investment Annual Report" today. The figures in the release show that the the UK has continued to strengthen its position as the leading European destination for foreign direct investment.

    why's that good news ? Do these companies pay their taxes ? Are they fulfilling roles which other companies wouldn;t just do anyway ? Are they employing locals or importing labour ?

    tractor stats Mr Pole, just like Brown. Nice to know but does it tell us anything ?
    The heat must be insufferable in Warwickshire, Mr. Brooke, if I have to justify the beneficial effect of foreign direct investment.

    The quoted figures are just the headlines. The full report can be downloaded from the following link: http://www.ukti.gov.uk/download/591580_194620/UKTI Inward Investment Report 2012-13.pdf.html

    If you don't fancy reading the 28 page report I could selectively release excerpts to answer your questions.

    Here is one for a starter. The performance of the UK compared to its major competitors and benchmarks:

    In marked contrast to global trends, the UK secured an annual increase of 22 per cent in FDI inflows in 2012, attracting US$62 billion, the highest level in Europe. Indeed, the UK’s share of global FDI flows rose to 4.6 per cent, up significantly from 3.1 per cent in 2011. These excellent results reflect the strong confidence that foreign investors have in the UK, particularly in a time of global economic turbulence.
    Countries with increased FDI flows:   

    United Kingdom ˄ +22%

    Countries with reduced FDI flows:

    China ˅ - 2%
    United States ˅ -26%
    France ˅ -35%
    Germany ˅ -87%

    Average global and regional FDI flows:

    World average ˅ -18%
    EU average ˅ -42%

    [Source: UNCTAD, 2013]
    Let me know when you are ready for more, Mr. Brooke.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658

    @Alanbrooke

    I am not sure that PISA focuses on the bottom quartile, but I do agree with you.

    The good news is that at primary level, at least, there has been significant progress since the mid-1990s:

    http://www.poverty.org.uk/25/index.shtml

    If we do want to improve performance one thing not to do is to get rid of programmes - such as the London Challenge - which produce excellent results.

    It doesn't really matter what the programme is as long as the outcomes improve, the problem for education has been it's everyone's football. Over-centralisation and diktat hasn't given us the results we need, time for a bit more flexibility and a bit less snobbery. For some people the academic route works for others it the vocational as long as both advance on merit then let people find their own way.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Dearie me. What is Vince on? The Taleban? http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/banking/article3824023.ece

    " The Bank of England has behaved like “the Taleban” in its efforts to over-regulate the banking sector, according to Vince Cable, who says they have harmed lending to business in the process.

    The Business Secretary has mounted the strongest criticism of any in the coalition against decisions of the Bank, which are supposed to be independent of government. Dr Cable once described Threadneedle Street as a quango.

    His criticisms echo the complaints by John Cridland, director-general of the CBI, in an interview with The Times last week.

    George Osborne holds a similar view, although will not attack the Bank in public. Treasury officials hope that Dr Carney will take what might be regarded as a more measured approach to bank regulation.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    edited July 2013
    Plato said:

    Given that being paid JSA and being asked to work for a fortnight in Poundsaver in return was met with howls of SLAVE LABOUR by a vocal minority and helped by the BBC - it'll take quite some effort to knock this down.

    I have come to think that the government should not provide unemployment benefits, but should instead guarantee everyone a full-time job at minimum wage. Picking fruit in the countryside would probably be one of the areas which would benefit from this government supplied labour.

    One of the bonuses of such a policy is that it would make enforcement of the minimum wage a lot easier if everyone knew they could get a minimum wage job working for the country, and so this policy could also help to increase wages for the low-paid, as employers currently paying minimum wage would have to compete more strongly to attract labour.

    A pretty feeble excuse. There are plenty of NEETs in the country without families who could easily benefit from some hard work in the sunshine of East Anglia.

    While the immediate skills are not transferrable to work in the cities the work ethic and healthy outdoir lifestyle would do some couch potatoes a world of good.

    Even in the Cheshire farming belt ;-)


    Slaves were usually provided with clothing , food and accommodation in exchange for their labour , perhaps a rather better exchange than JSA for working in Poundstretcher
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Len is having another media fest

    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    #LenTV Unite hit back r.e. Falkirk, "reinstate Stevie Deans or we'll shut a factory down and take strike action" unitetheunion.public-i.tv/core/portal/we…

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    Unite applaud scandal hit Karie Murphy and Stephen Deans during McClusterf**k webcast guyfawk.es/134rDL5

    Gareth Baines @GABaines
    Unite webcast: "this right wing press is evil"

    norman smith @BBCNormanS
    Unite leader Len McCluskey says Labour must not be "a party that is a pinkish shadow of the Coalition."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,573
    edited July 2013
    ** Betting post **

    http://sportsbeta.ladbrokes.com/Cycling/Cycling-Specials-N-1z140k1Z1z0xq95/

    Anyone who followed the Tour De France will know just what an athlete Chris Froome is. Bear in mind this course was a climbing one, in a more time trial heavy one he will probably be even more dominant. Nairo Quintana is an excellent rider, as is Vincenzo Nibali and I think these are the only real threats to Chris in the coming years.

    But Flat Time trial kilometres will see to Quintana's chances so he may be more inclined to go for the Giro in future years. And Nibali whilst he has improved does not have quite the legs that Chris does.

    Over than Quintana there are no real young threats to Chris' dominance.

    Of course there is no guarantee that Froome will keep his legs for the next 4 years, but he seems to have alot more hunger than Wiggo. He is also probably going to focus on the Tour, and will keep the top spot at Sky till he retires.

    Periods of dominance do happen in cycling and especially seem to with the Tour - Anquetil, Mercx, Hinault, Indurain all won 5.

    WInning by over 5 minutes (He lost a minute on the Champs) on a climbing heavy course where his nearest challengers were climbers (Who are both poor TTers) indicates he could well be dominant for the next years. He is 28 now and has good years left in his legs. The other TTers who could be a threat for GC - TJVG, Evans, De Gendt are simply nowhere near Froome in the mountains (I'd struggle to say they are even a threat to GC)

    Can he win 5 ? Maybe, maybe not but I think it is a shorter shot than 20-1.
    £20 on for me.

    I don't think the other bets represent good value, bearing in mind Sky (And Froome's) likely schedule and focus on TdF.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    And on it goes

    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    #LenTV Len McCluskey: "sustained and abusive attack" on Unite "from our own party" "pushed to breaking point" unitetheunion.public-i.tv/core/portal/we…

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    Len confirms he expects right to buy policy from Labour: "taken for granted by people who take our money but don't want our policy input"
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,311
    O/t I think the term PB Taki could gain currency.

    'Taki: A fascist takeover of Greece? We should be so lucky

    Golden Dawn members might need some lessons in social etiquette, but what the bien pensant need much more is to get off the pot and their double standards. Golden Dawn members are mostly labourers, martial artists, cops, security personnel and good old-fashioned patriotic Greeks.'

    http://tinyurl.com/n2ad6ag
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    AveryLP said:

    AveryLP said:

    Not even good news stops coming for a royal baby



    ?
    The heat must be insufferable in Warwickshire, Mr. Brooke, if I have to justify the beneficial effect of foreign direct investment.

    The quoted figures are just the headlines. The full report can be downloaded from the following link: http://www.ukti.gov.uk/download/591580_194620/UKTI Inward Investment Report 2012-13.pdf.html

    If you don't fancy reading the 28 page report I could selectively release excerpts to answer your questions.

    Here is one for a starter. The performance of the UK compared to its major competitors and benchmarks:

    In marked contrast to global trends, the UK secured an annual increase of 22 per cent in FDI inflows in 2012, attracting US$62 billion, the highest level in Europe. Indeed, the UK’s share of global FDI flows rose to 4.6 per cent, up significantly from 3.1 per cent in 2011. These excellent results reflect the strong confidence that foreign investors have in the UK, particularly in a time of global economic turbulence.

    Countries with increased FDI flows:



    [Source: UNCTAD, 2013]

    Let me know when you are ready for more, Mr. Brooke.
    mindless tractor stats Mr Pole, what does this tell me about the quality of who is investing ? Am I getting more Krafts and Amazons piggybacking off our tax paying SMEs or am I getting more Volkswagens and Toyotas who train people, develop supply chains and pay taxes ?

    would you rather Starbucks opened 100 new stores and paid their tax in Geneva at diddlysquat or Costa opened them instead and paid full UK corporation tax ? Cui bono ?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    tim said:

    Voodoo Poll

    Guido Fawkes ‏@GuidoFawkes
    POLL RESULT: 86% of Readers Say Sue @claire4devizes | Guido Has Instructed Lawyers to Commence Proceedings http://guyfawk.es/18zfEpA

    "As a Mother of Three" Perry is so far out of her depth with Daves porn briefs.

    You're using a guido poll?

    beyond parody.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    #LenTV Len McCluskey now threatening Ed Miliband - "don't think you can take our money but not our policy input" >>> unitetheunion.public-i.tv/core/portal/we…

    RT @georgeeaton McCluskey criticises those (Labour) who "welcome our money but don't want our policy input". << here we go

    This is most amusing bun-fighting.

    And a non-story
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    JackW said:

    @NickPalmer wrote :

    "... your acid comments on the royal baby name.

    Duh - I don't often write acid comments, and I just made a couple of jokey ones about the baby name thread. Is your humour detector working?

    But can be hard to detect when a post is a joke. Apologies to anyone fond of babies who was offended!

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    If you're missing this - tune into LenTV here

    http://www.unitetheunion.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/110289

    It's hilarious.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Made my day - this is all good news for EdM and a non-story

    Gareth Baines @GABaines
    McCluskey “voted for Ed Miliband because he told me New Labour “got it wrong””

    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    Len McCluskey: "USDAW also use block-buying membership schemes" in the Labour Party >>> unitetheunion.public-i.tv/core/portal/we… #LenTV

    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    Len McCluskey: Ed Miliband's review into Falkirk was a "shoddy farce" unitetheunion.public-i.tv/core/portal/we… #LenTV

    Tim Ross @TimRossDT
    Labour's response to Falkirk has been "an utter, utter disgrace," Len McCluskey says.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,299
    I just caught up with all of this Claire Perry stuff. What an idiot. I hope Guido nails her in court, MPs should be given mandatory IQ and technology tests to avoid this kind of idiocy.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    Tom McTague @MirrorMcTague
    Seems this Labour-Unite row thingy is dying down... Nothing to see here (cough)

    Len McCluskey tearing Ed Miliband to shreds: "I honestly don't know where this is going to go to" >>>

    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    Len McCluskey is forgetting now that at least a quarter of Unite members vote Conservative unitetheunion.public-i.tv/core/portal/we… #LenTV
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Plato said:

    If you're missing this - tune into LenTV here

    http://www.unitetheunion.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/110289

    It's hilarious.

    Now now - how can you comment - you don't "understand" the unions.

    I'm sure this can only help Ed and won't be a distraction at all - this is playing into Ed's hands - no really.

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Tim

    'Ed's going to be absolutely gutted by McCluskey taking this approach, gutted.
    How will he cope.'

    Great pantomime for the next few months,followed by the lovey dovey bit at next Spring's meeting,followed by courageous Ed, who slayed the mighty union dragon and made clause 4 look like a wimp.

    All a bit too predictable and stage managed,but good for the gullible
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,299
    tim said:

    Ed's going to be absolutely gutted by McCluskey taking this approach, gutted.
    How will he cope.

    Indeed. If anything this is helping Ed, having already distanced himself from Len and Unite. The more crazy Len looks the better Ed comes off having ditched him.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I haven't laughed so much in ages - this is like being 15yrs old again.


    PoliticsHome @politicshome
    McCluskey to the Daily Mail: "If you think you will intimidate this union… you are as stupid as your predecessors...in the 1930s.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    @GawainTowler
    They want to know what a Kipper looks like, standing room only for @Nigel_Farage at @Guardian conference pic.twitter.com/hj3YM8Rgji

    He, he! drool you fainthearts.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    Len McCluskey: Unite members must have more control over Labour candidate/MP selections unitetheunion.public-i.tv/core/portal/we… #LenTV

    Gareth Baines @GABaines
    McCluskey “get Lord Sainsbury’s millions out of the Labour Party” (to loud applause)

    Tim Shipman (Mail) @ShippersUnbound
    Now Red Len condemns the 'Oxbridge Blairites'. All those people who won 3 elections and made his party credible.

    Mark Wallace @wallaceme
    So in summary, Len wants more policy influence, more power in Lab MP selections and other donors driven out. Not a takeover. #LenTV

    Gareth Baines @GABaines
    McCluskey “Labour’s income from the political fund will decrease, possibly dramatically”

    Isabel Hardman @IsabelHardman
    Len says political fund will have 'variety of uses', 'not just handing over to the Labour party as has generally happened'

    PoliticsHome @politicshome
    McCluskey says union contributions are "the cleanest money in British politics".
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Wow Len really is the gift that keeps on giving isn't he? LOL
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    @alanbrooke

    mindless tractor stats Mr Pole, what does this tell me about the quality of who is investing ? Am I getting more Krafts and Amazons piggybacking off our tax paying SMEs or am I getting more Volkswagens and Toyotas who train people, develop supply chains and pay taxes ?

    would you rather Starbucks opened 100 new stores and paid their tax in Geneva at diddlysquat or Costa opened them instead and paid full UK corporation tax ? Cui bono ?


    Good news, Mr. Brooke. The breakdown of projects show that most investment is in high tech, energy and high value services industries. Less barristas, more geeks and creatives.

    The data from the ONS confirms that a wide range of sectors make up the UK’s inward FDI stock, highlighting the compelling range of investment opportunities available in the UK to foreign companies. Foreign owned companies in financial services hold the largest stock of foreign capital (with 23 per cent of the total), reflecting the UK’s global leadership in the sector. Other sectors with a large presence of foreign capital are ICT and pharmaceuticals, which accounts for 14 per cent of the total stock of foreign capital.
    Projects and total jobs by industry sector groups, 2012/13       

    Industry sector groups Projects Total jobs

    Advanced Advanced manufacturing 380 51,568
    manufacturing Life sciences 142 11,235

    Knowledge Creative industries and ICT 369 20,837
    intensive Electronics and telecoms 109 5,671
    Financial and professional 309 35,636
    services

    Energy and Energy and infrastructure 250 45,149
    infrastructure

    Grand total 1,559 170,096

    [Source: UKTI, 2013]
    Any more questions?
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2013
    Instead of a Tour de France for women I think a Tour Des Femmes de France would be more entertaining viewing - but Dave won't allow it.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    JackW said:

    @NickPalmer wrote :

    "... your acid comments on the royal baby name.

    Duh - I don't often write acid comments, and I just made a couple of jokey ones about the baby name thread. Is your humour detector working?

    But can be hard to detect when a post is a joke. Apologies to anyone fond of babies who was offended!

    Most of us on PB are just pleased to see confirmation that baby-eating is as rife in the Labour party as it is amongst Tories.

    Would you like my favourite recipe for BBQ sauce, Nick?

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    Well, I think that LenTV has given the PB Tories much entertainment.

    Shame that Loony Len gave Labour TWELVE MILLION QUID since GE2010 isn't it?

    This is a non-story, yes siree, it's great news for EdM who's distancing himself from Unite erm - around April next year...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    john_zims said:

    @Tim

    'Ed's going to be absolutely gutted by McCluskey taking this approach, gutted.
    How will he cope.'

    Great pantomime for the next few months,followed by the lovey dovey bit at next Spring's meeting,followed by courageous Ed, who slayed the mighty union dragon and made clause 4 look like a wimp.

    All a bit too predictable and stage managed,but good for the gullible

    Now now - what could possibly go wrong ?
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    There were a lot of problems with the NHS during Labour's time especially related to MRSA type stuff. So there's a parcel of blame already built up for playing pass the parcel with. The poll the other day said most of the blame was attached to the management so all the Tories have to do is attach Labour to the management. Targets is the obvious way but maybe too dull. So ideally they'd find an NHS scandal where the management didn't seem to be fully qualified except though being related or married to Labour party figures.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    @Avery

    you haven't answered the last ones. approx one third of jobs created are actually new the rest are roll over cost of staying in business stuff, if they leave they cede the ground to the competition. so hardly trumpet blowing stuff. You think more financial services are good, hmmm . You still can't answer about quality of work and taxation so why's it automatically good ? Overall Mr Pole this is just so much noise. What does FDI tell us ? Maybe all it's saying is we're a bunch of rollover saps who won't chase you for tax, let you keep employees on zero hour contracts and who'll borrow money to keep civic infrastructure in place instead of charging for it. I know it's meant to be jump up and down clap our hands stuff, but some of the recent disclosures on who's investing might just make us pause to question the quality of what we're getting.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And what a surprise from C4, not. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/10195719/Why-Dont-You-Speak-English-immigration-immigrants-China-Poland-Congo-Colombia-Channel-4-multiculturalism-English-language-English-refugee-camp-deprivation-poverty.html

    "... These were the human stories of immigrants, not the stories of their attempts to learn our language. It was upsetting to learn that one young woman, Sifa, had spent 15 years in a refugee camp in the Congo. But that revelation – and the distress that it caused to her very well-meaning host family – was just a gratuituous injection of misery. It had no bearing on the standard of her English.

    Neither, more importantly, did it help to explain why she should learn our language, or the limits that her life here might face if she didn’t. Detailing why immigrants should learn English, and indeed assimilate into British society, would challenge the prized left-wing dogma of multiculturalism – could that be part of why Channel 4 fought shy of doing it? By the end of the hour, the original pretence had been almost entirely forgotten. There wasn’t even an attempt to show how much (if at all) the immigrants’ English had improved during their week’s immersion course. Instead, there was much hugging and emotion as they departed.

    And viewers were treated to a preview of next week’s concluding episode, in which the English speakers make a return trip to stay with their assigned immigrants. This, it seems, will be a portrait of the deprivation and poverty in which so many new immigrants often live. Learning English? Not so much.

    What’s particularly frustrating is that the plight of new immigrants, both before and after they come to the UK, is well-known. Those stories don’t need to be told yet again, and as a result, this programme just felt like recycled warm air. By contrast, the specific plight of immigrants who don’t speak English – particularly women, who can often end up almost trapped in their homes – would have made a genuinely original and informative programme. Perhaps some brave TV producer – one who has the chutzpah to challenge politically-correct notions about immigration – will make that programme soon. But on current form, it won’t be on Channel 4.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    "Harriet Harman has written to Tour de France director calling for a women's race at the event."

    Harriet's acting like trade union for women and you can see her cunning plan. Attach a small female tour to the main one and piggy-back off the men. Then claim equal prize money - just like at Wimbledon.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    @Avery

    you haven't answered the last ones. approx one third of jobs created are actually new the rest are roll over cost of staying in business stuff, if they leave they cede the ground to the competition. so hardly trumpet blowing stuff. You think more financial services are good, hmmm . You still can't answer about quality of work and taxation so why's it automatically good ? Overall Mr Pole this is just so much noise. What does FDI tell us ? Maybe all it's saying is we're a bunch of rollover saps who won't chase you for tax, let you keep employees on zero hour contracts and who'll borrow money to keep civic infrastructure in place instead of charging for it. I know it's meant to be jump up and down clap our hands stuff, but some of the recent disclosures on who's investing might just make us pause to question the quality of what we're getting.

    Step by step, Mr. Brooke.

    On breakdown of projects and jobs created/retained here are some more figures:
                 Projects    Jobs   % Change 

    Services 666 69,261 ˄ 6%
    R&D 298 34,800 ˄ 84%
    HQs 283 4,726 ˅ -1%
    Manufacturing 235 43,438 ˅ -8%
    Distribution 40 4,866 ˄ 5%
    Contact centres 37 13,005 ˄ 6%
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I couldn't give a toss about Tim's warnings about the housing market bubble, but when Allister Heath expresses the same concerns, as he has today, I start to get worried.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    Gareth Baines @GABaines
    Labour's reaction to Len McCluskey's "I want more power" speech: "but what about Lynton Crosby"...

    MT @patrickwintour McCluskey backs Miliband reforms because he thinks union will get "enhanced policy input"
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Whilst irrelevant - its amusing

    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    Miliband's #Falkirk crisis saga makes India's 2nd biggest English paper in India via @htTweets hindustantimes.com/India-news/Del…
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,299
    taffys said:

    I couldn't give a toss about Tim's warnings about the housing market bubble, but when Allister Heath expresses the same concerns, as he has today, I start to get worried.

    The Chancellor is blowing up a housing bubble that will peak around the time of the election. It's not really rocket science.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    taffys said:

    I couldn't give a toss about Tim's warnings about the housing market bubble, but when Allister Heath expresses the same concerns, as he has today, I start to get worried.

    London prices have continued to rise sharply over the last 3 years - mostly due to EU money fleeing Eurogeddon.

    I doubt govt can do much to blow or pop the bubble with these schemes - life of it's own.

    http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/04/french-greek-elections-a-boom-for-london-property/


  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    @Avery

    You think more financial services are good, hmmm.

    The Lord Mayor of London, Roger Gifford, has been given a couple of pages in the UKTI report. He sets out the case for the City well.

    Here are excerpts:

    Current Strengths
    There are currently over 1,100 overseas firms from around 80 countries that are regulated to operate in the UK financial services sector, with some 250 branches and subsidiaries of foreign banks in London alone, more than any other city worldwide.

    Twice as many US dollars are traded on the foreign exchange market in the UK than in the US, and more than twice as many euros are traded in the UK than in all the Eurozone countries combined.

    The UK continues to lead the world in cross-border bank lending and borrowing, foreign exchange trading and over-the-counter derivatives, while there are significant strengths in areas such as asset management and insurance, where the UK has the largest industry in Europe.


    Future Opportunities
    In addition to traditional financial markets, our increasing influence in emerging, fast-growing markets such as Islamic finance, renminbi trading and carbon trading has reinforced the UK’s position at the leading-edge of the sector internationally. London, for example, has in recent years proved a highly attractive location for institutional investors, with sovereign wealth funds and pension funds establishing local presences to take advantage of the UK’s secure investment environment in a time of global economic and political uncertainty.

    Reasons for Success
    International financial services companies, in my experience, come to the UK for many reasons, including the ease of doing business, the attractive corporate and personal tax environment, the preferred use of both the English language and English law in business operations, and the UK’s active involvement in the European Single Market.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    If GO really wanted to blow a housing bubble - he would set up a crap new bank regulation scheme, turn a blind eye whilst tiny provincial banks mega merged, encourage 125% mortgages and give knighthoods to the guys at the top - pour encourage les autres...

    I don't think we are quite there yet..

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    AveryLP said:

    @Avery

    you haven't answered the last ones. approx one third of jobs created are actually new the rest are roll over cost of staying in business stuff, if they leave they cede the ground to the competition. so hardly trumpet blowing stuff. You think more financial services are good, hmmm . You still can't answer about quality of work and taxation so why's it automatically good ? Overall Mr Pole this is just so much noise. What does FDI tell us ? Maybe all it's saying is we're a bunch of rollover saps who won't chase you for tax, let you keep employees on zero hour contracts and who'll borrow money to keep civic infrastructure in place instead of charging for it. I know it's meant to be jump up and down clap our hands stuff, but some of the recent disclosures on who's investing might just make us pause to question the quality of what we're getting.

    Step by step, Mr. Brooke.

    On breakdown of projects and jobs created/retained here are some more figures:
                 Projects    Jobs   % Change 

    Services 666 69,261 ˄ 6%
    R&D 298 34,800 ˄ 84%
    HQs 283 4,726 ˅ -1%
    Manufacturing 235 43,438 ˅ -8%
    Distribution 40 4,866 ˄ 5%
    Contact centres 37 13,005 ˄ 6%
    That''s great Avery but can you tell me where these guys are paying their taxes ? UK, low tax EU, offshore ?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    AveryLP said:

    @Avery

    You think more financial services are good, hmmm.

    The Lord Mayor of London, Roger Gifford, has been given a couple of pages in the UKTI report. He sets out the case for the City well.

    Here are excerpts:

    Current Strengths
    There are currently over 1,100 overseas firms from around 80 countries that are regulated to operate in the UK financial services sector, with some 250 branches and subsidiaries of foreign banks in London alone, more than any other city worldwide.

    Twice as many US dollars are traded on the foreign exchange market in the UK than in the US, and more than twice as many euros are traded in the UK than in all the Eurozone countries combined.

    The UK continues to lead the world in cross-border bank lending and borrowing, foreign exchange trading and over-the-counter derivatives, while there are significant strengths in areas such as asset management and insurance, where the UK has the largest industry in Europe.


    Future Opportunities
    In addition to traditional financial markets, our increasing influence in emerging, fast-growing markets such as Islamic finance, renminbi trading and carbon trading has reinforced the UK’s position at the leading-edge of the sector internationally. London, for example, has in recent years proved a highly attractive location for institutional investors, with sovereign wealth funds and pension funds establishing local presences to take advantage of the UK’s secure investment environment in a time of global economic and political uncertainty.

    Reasons for Success
    International financial services companies, in my experience, come to the UK for many reasons, including the ease of doing business, the attractive corporate and personal tax environment, the preferred use of both the English language and English law in business operations, and the UK’s active involvement in the European Single Market.
    riiight London bloke thinks finance is pukkah. How about the mayor of Sunderland or Stoke or Swansea do you think they'd be quite as bowled over ?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013

    @Avery

    you haven't answered the last ones. approx one third of jobs created are actually new the rest are roll over cost of staying in business stuff, if they leave they cede the ground to the competition. so hardly trumpet blowing stuff. You think more financial services are good, hmmm . You still can't answer about quality of work and taxation so why's it automatically good ? Overall Mr Pole this is just so much noise. What does FDI tell us ? Maybe all it's saying is we're a bunch of rollover saps who won't chase you for tax, let you keep employees on zero hour contracts and who'll borrow money to keep civic infrastructure in place instead of charging for it. I know it's meant to be jump up and down clap our hands stuff, but some of the recent disclosures on who's investing might just make us pause to question the quality of what we're getting.

    I think I have answered your questions on the quality of investment.

    As to tax, all new businesses created or saved in the UK increase tax receipts for the Treasury as well as having positive multiplier effects in the general economy.

    Foreign investment increases overall investment in the economy as it brings investment resources to the country beyond those which the economy is able to generate domestically.

    It really is all "jump up and down clap our hands stuff", Mr. Brooke. The job is nowhere near finished but we are definitely moving in the right direction at a time when most of our competitors are moving backwards.

    You don't want to be a baby killer like that nasty Nick Palmer do you, Mr. Brooke?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,299
    TGOHF said:

    If GO really wanted to blow a housing bubble - he would set up a crap new bank regulation scheme, turn a blind eye whilst tiny provincial banks mega merged, encourage 125% mortgages and give knighthoods to the guys at the top - pour encourage les autres...

    I don't think we are quite there yet..

    He is, however, giving loan guarantees to people the banks are currently refusing mortgages and offering 20% equity buy ins on properties that people would otherwise be unable to afford. I would call that trying to blow up a housing bubble just in time for the election.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    AveryLP said:

    @Avery

    you haven't answered the last ones. approx one third of jobs created are actually new the rest are roll over cost of staying in business stuff, if they leave they cede the ground to the competition. so hardly trumpet blowing stuff. You think more financial services are good, hmmm . You still can't answer about quality of work and taxation so why's it automatically good ? Overall Mr Pole this is just so much noise. What does FDI tell us ? Maybe all it's saying is we're a bunch of rollover saps who won't chase you for tax, let you keep employees on zero hour contracts and who'll borrow money to keep civic infrastructure in place instead of charging for it. I know it's meant to be jump up and down clap our hands stuff, but some of the recent disclosures on who's investing might just make us pause to question the quality of what we're getting.

    I think I have answered your questions on the quality of investment.

    As to tax, all new businesses created or saved in the UK increase tax receipts for the Treasury as well as having multiplier effects in the general economy.

    Foreign investment increases overall investment in the economy as it brings investment resources to the country beyond those which the economy is able to generate domestically.

    It really is all "jump up and down clap our hands stuff", Mr. Brooke. The job is nowhere near finished but we are definitely moving in the right direction at a time when most of our competitors are moving backwards.

    You don't want to be a baby killer like that nasty Nick Palmer do you, Mr. Brooke?
    No Mr Pole I from that fine curmudgeonly british tradition of gift horse dentistry . Whatever the spin I'll believe it when I see it, so the more spin the more sceptical I get. Bentley's announcement yesterday, that was good news. Financial services and IT simply rip off merchants.

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    AveryLP said:

    @Avery

    You think more financial services are good, hmmm.

    The Lord Mayor of London, Roger Gifford, has been given a couple of pages in the UKTI report. He sets out the case for the City well.

    Here are excerpts:

    Current Strengths
    There are currently over 1,100 overseas firms from around 80 countries that are regulated to operate in the UK financial services sector, with some 250 branches and subsidiaries of foreign banks in London alone, more than any other city worldwide.

    Twice as many US dollars are traded on the foreign exchange market in the UK than in the US, and more than twice as many euros are traded in the UK than in all the Eurozone countries combined.

    The UK continues to lead the world in cross-border bank lending and borrowing, foreign exchange trading and over-the-counter derivatives, while there are significant strengths in areas such as asset management and insurance, where the UK has the largest industry in Europe.


    Future Opportunities
    In addition to traditional financial markets, our increasing influence in emerging, fast-growing markets such as Islamic finance, renminbi trading and carbon trading has reinforced the UK’s position at the leading-edge of the sector internationally. London, for example, has in recent years proved a highly attractive location for institutional investors, with sovereign wealth funds and pension funds establishing local presences to take advantage of the UK’s secure investment environment in a time of global economic and political uncertainty.

    Reasons for Success
    International financial services companies, in my experience, come to the UK for many reasons, including the ease of doing business, the attractive corporate and personal tax environment, the preferred use of both the English language and English law in business operations, and the UK’s active involvement in the European Single Market.
    riiight London bloke thinks finance is pukkah. How about the mayor of Sunderland or Stoke or Swansea do you think they'd be quite as bowled over ?
    If it generates taxes which can be used to pay for things in those towns I'm sure they'll be very relaxed by it.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    If GO really wanted to blow a housing bubble - he would set up a crap new bank regulation scheme, turn a blind eye whilst tiny provincial banks mega merged, encourage 125% mortgages and give knighthoods to the guys at the top - pour encourage les autres...

    I don't think we are quite there yet..

    He is, however, giving loan guarantees to people the banks are currently refusing mortgages and offering 20% equity buy ins on properties that people would otherwise be unable to afford. I would call that trying to blow up a housing bubble just in time for the election.
    The housing crash was caused by the quality of the loans being created - NINJA (no income no job or asset) and poor checking on the true status of those taking on loans which was part of a big level of fraudulent applications. The scale of the problem was not due to people taking on loans a few quid over their traditional 3x salary limit.

    Forgetting the arguments as to whether this will make a blind bit of difference to house prices - given that the scheme doesn't even kick off until 2014 I think he has left it far far too late even if he wanted to blow a bubble.



  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    edited July 2013

    AveryLP said:

    riiight London bloke thinks finance is pukkah. How about the mayor of Sunderland or Stoke or Swansea do you think they'd be quite as bowled over ?
    If it generates taxes which can be used to pay for things in those towns I'm sure they'll be very relaxed by it.
    sure Slackie, what percentage of Financial services do you think is going in to Stoke ? Can the economy of Newcastle under Lyme cope with the demand for upmarket flats for Investment bankers ? When will Marcus Wareing open a restaurant in Hanley ? At least they can pick up their Bentleys by getting a bus to Crewe.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    If people can catch a bus from Lisbon to do the work in Boston, why can't they catch one from Sheffield, South Wales or Birmingham?

    tim said:

    Plato said:

    BenM said:

    There's never ever a problem with immigration if its the 'right sort' of immigrants..

    (ie the highly skilled ones which can walk into jobs, and which there is a demand for).

    Like immigrants taking up seasonal fruit picking jobs? Plenty of demand, and immigrants fill it.
    And damned by your words.

    Why are Portuguese nationals travelling hundreds of miles to pluck turkeys or spuds or asparagus in Norfolk whilst the native population watches TV instead?

    What's the long-term unemployment rate in Norfolk?




    Low I'd imagine.

    Lets do some basic maths with a Tory MP in a nearby county

    "As local Tory MP Mark Simmonds pointed out earlier this year, there are about 1,300 unemployed people in Boston: "If we got rid of 10,000 migrants, who would do the work?"
    According to a certain Labour mindset it wouldn't leave them enough money for toothpaste.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    AveryLP said:

    riiight London bloke thinks finance is pukkah. How about the mayor of Sunderland or Stoke or Swansea do you think they'd be quite as bowled over ?
    If it generates taxes which can be used to pay for things in those towns I'm sure they'll be very relaxed by it.
    sure Slackie, what percentage of Financial services do you think is going in to Stoke ? Can the economy of Newcastle under Lyme cope with the demand for upmarket flats for Investment bankers ? When will Marcus Wareing open a restaurant in Hanley ? At least they can pick up their Bentleys by getting a bus to Crewe.
    Hence the word 'taxes', dear boy.... you know, that money which the government collects.. it's not done locally you know.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    tim said:

    Good timing

    http://labourlist.org/2013/07/where-are-the-politicians-who-will-speak-up-for-britains-hard-working-immigrants/


    It's not like the tide of filth and ignorance is being peddled by the sharpest tools in the box.

    Oh look, the Labour troll shouts "racist" to shut down debate.

    Well, it worked for them for years and he is such a slow learner.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    tim said:

    Good timing

    http://labourlist.org/2013/07/where-are-the-politicians-who-will-speak-up-for-britains-hard-working-immigrants/


    It's not like the tide of filth and ignorance is being peddled by the sharpest tools in the box.

    that's great tim, could we also have one on where are the politicians who will speak up for Britains's forgotten WWC communities ?
    Phil Woolas perhaps?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1311491/Labour-MP-Phil-Woolas-accused-stirring-race-hate-win-white-vote.html

    Still, Ed thought he was ok.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,658
    edited July 2013





    Hence the word 'taxes', dear boy.... you know, that money which the government collects.. it's not done locally you know.

    the question old chap is which government collects it ? i can't see Luxembourg Ireland or Guernsey handing that much over to the good citizens of Stoke, charming as they are.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,299
    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    The scale of the problem was not due to people taking on loans a few quid over their traditional 3x salary limit.

    A few quid over?

    oh dear, what do you think the earnings/price ratios are across London now?

    FWIW I was offered a mortgage on 6x my personal income to buy a 2 bed flat. Clearly not just a few quid over...
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    If GO really wanted to blow a housing bubble - he would set up a crap new bank regulation scheme, turn a blind eye whilst tiny provincial banks mega merged, encourage 125% mortgages and give knighthoods to the guys at the top - pour encourage les autres...

    I don't think we are quite there yet..

    He is, however, giving loan guarantees to people the banks are currently refusing mortgages and offering 20% equity buy ins on properties that people would otherwise be unable to afford. I would call that trying to blow up a housing bubble just in time for the election.
    There are many reasons for Osborne needing to intervene in the housing and mortgage markets most of which have been set out on PB with supporting econometrics.

    One point on your post. Credit risk (the willingness and ability of the borrower to pay the interest and principal repayments as they become due) is not affected by the Loan to Value Ratio. All loans under the Help to Buy schemes will require applicants to pass normal credit risk assessments.

    The Loan to Value ratio is much more about economic risk (the risk to the bank of collateral held against loans declining in value as a result of house price deflation). Regulators require banks to increase their capital when the economic risk they take on is increased. So banks have kept to a 75% Loan to Value ratio in order to avoid having to increase capital cover.

    [to be continued]
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    @MaxPB

    [...continued]

    The 75% LTV is partly temporary as the banks carried forward from the financial crisis large proportions of their loan books with higher LTVs due to the practices of providing equity release loans, over 100% LTV loans, interest only loans, combined current and mortgage accounts etc.). Removing the more aggressive loans products from the market and restricting new loans to a low LTV has been a way of rebalancing the economic risk of existng loan books and increasing the efficiency of capital buffers.

    An unwelcome side-effect of such lending constraints has been the shutting out of first time buyers from the housing market and the fall in construction of new homes suitable for such buyers as demand fell. This has led to the housing and mortgage markets becoming illiquid. Constructors were not building, first time buyers were not buying, banks were not lending and existing house owners were not selling when forced to move.

    Osborne's interventions have been targetted at removing the liquidity blocks from the housing market. They assure demand and a price floor for constructors; provide assistance to first time buyers in finding the 25% of value in a deposit; assistance to banks by allowing new funds to "pass through" bank balance sheets without pushing up capital requirements as well as guarantees against economic risk which serve the same capital conservation purposes.

    As a result of Osborne's interventions, coincident with and causally linked to a more general economic recovery, house prices have stopped falling in value, the number of mortgage loans has started to increase, first time purchasers have returned to the market and construction of new homes has increased by over 30% from its 2010 low.

    But this is far from a bubble. House sales, construction and loans have only reached 60% of their mid noughties levels and house prices are still falling in real terms.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    The scale of the problem was not due to people taking on loans a few quid over their traditional 3x salary limit.

    A few quid over?

    oh dear, what do you think the earnings/price ratios are across London now?

    FWIW I was offered a mortgage on 6x my personal income to buy a 2 bed flat. Clearly not just a few quid over...
    Did they ask to see your payslip ? If so you weren't part of the worst end of the problem.

  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    One of the effects of soaring central London house prices seems to be the middle class yuppies colonising Hackney and Dalston.

    Stacks of them in a pub in Hackney Wick last Friday night.

    Like being in the White Horse in Parsons Green in 1986...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,299
    TGOHF said:

    MaxPB said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    The scale of the problem was not due to people taking on loans a few quid over their traditional 3x salary limit.

    A few quid over?

    oh dear, what do you think the earnings/price ratios are across London now?

    FWIW I was offered a mortgage on 6x my personal income to buy a 2 bed flat. Clearly not just a few quid over...
    Did they ask to see your payslip ? If so you weren't part of the worst end of the problem.

    Of course, which I provided without any falsifications.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    '''.. it's not done locally you know.'''

    This is why for me the Detroit thing is so fascinating.

    In the US courts they will be soon be fighting over a city's right to renege on public sector pensions entitlements in order to, essentially, return the place to the first world.

    When you read about what happens there it feels more like Mogadishu rather than Manhattan.

    Could that happen here one day? Could a council turn around to retirees and simply say 'sorry, we simply can't afford to pay you that.....?

    And could it happen further up the chain too....?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    MaxPB said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    The scale of the problem was not due to people taking on loans a few quid over their traditional 3x salary limit.

    A few quid over?

    oh dear, what do you think the earnings/price ratios are across London now?

    FWIW I was offered a mortgage on 6x my personal income to buy a 2 bed flat. Clearly not just a few quid over...
    "A few quid over the 3x Salary limit" is a classic from TGOHF.


    You seem to have not being paying attention tim.

    It wasn't the Smythe-Pattersons from no 23 Acacia avenue over extending themselves that caused the meltdown - it was your mate Gordon asleep at the wheel.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/sep/30/5


  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    TGOHF said:

    MaxPB said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    The scale of the problem was not due to people taking on loans a few quid over their traditional 3x salary limit.

    A few quid over?

    oh dear, what do you think the earnings/price ratios are across London now?

    FWIW I was offered a mortgage on 6x my personal income to buy a 2 bed flat. Clearly not just a few quid over...
    Did they ask to see your payslip ? If so you weren't part of the worst end of the problem.

    Of course, which I provided without any falsifications.
    Did you default ? I doubt it.


  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,688
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    taffys said:

    I couldn't give a toss about Tim's warnings about the housing market bubble, but when Allister Heath expresses the same concerns, as he has today, I start to get worried.

    London prices have continued to rise sharply over the last 3 years - mostly due to EU money fleeing Eurogeddon.

    I doubt govt can do much to blow or pop the bubble with these schemes - life of it's own.

    http://business.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/04/french-greek-elections-a-boom-for-london-property/


    There's not much data around on this but what there is suggests the inward investment is coming largely from the US,Middle East and Asia at the top end, rather than Europe.
    Above £2 million pound houses only account for a small percentage of the market though and Osbornes attempts to inflate are focused on the "up to £600k level."

    Thats taxpayers subsidising the purchase of million dollar flats.




    In my experience, there've been quite a few Greek buyers in London, over the past few years.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,299
    edited July 2013
    TGOHF said:



    Did you default ? I doubt it.


    The mortgage in question was offered (and declined) earlier this year...
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    nice to see the stalwarts of the Labour Party ripping in to each other.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    taffys said:

    '''.. it's not done locally you know.'''

    This is why for me the Detroit thing is so fascinating.

    In the US courts they will be soon be fighting over a city's right to renege on public sector pensions entitlements in order to, essentially, return the place to the first world.

    When you read about what happens there it feels more like Mogadishu rather than Manhattan.

    Could that happen here one day? Could a council turn around to retirees and simply say 'sorry, we simply can't afford to pay you that.....?

    And could it happen further up the chain too....?

    The US situation is somewhat different to the UK though. It's a Federation of different states afterall, so much more loose than in the UK.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    MaxPB said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    The scale of the problem was not due to people taking on loans a few quid over their traditional 3x salary limit.

    A few quid over?

    oh dear, what do you think the earnings/price ratios are across London now?

    FWIW I was offered a mortgage on 6x my personal income to buy a 2 bed flat. Clearly not just a few quid over...
    "A few quid over the 3x Salary limit" is a classic from TGOHF.


    You seem to have not being paying attention tim.

    It wasn't the Smythe-Pattersons from no 23 Acacia avenue over extending themselves that caused the meltdown - it was your mate Gordon asleep at the wheel.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/sep/30/5


    You seem to think there's been a house price crash in this country.
    Plus massive subprime repossessions,when in fact prices didnt fall much and are back above peak in some areas even before Osbornes bubble pumping gets going
    Who mentioned a house price crash ? The problem for the banks were the core quality and hence true value of loans - whether US or Uk.

    This topic seems a bit complex for you timmy - stick to racism.

  • @Taffys

    And could it happen further up the chain too....?

    Of course it could. And it will. If something can't go on it won't. Deficit funded welfarism will survive right up to the point where public sector bond markets collapse. Detroit, Greece, Argentina - we all know exactly what happens when public sector debt is racked up beyond the ability to service the debt and they fall into a debt spiral. Insolvent bodies are insolvent. No laws, no gnashing and wailing will make a broke body solvent.

    And here's a question for PB'ers. Is there anywhere a single example of local, city or national insolvency that didn't happen under a lefty government?

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    MaxPB said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    The scale of the problem was not due to people taking on loans a few quid over their traditional 3x salary limit.

    A few quid over?

    oh dear, what do you think the earnings/price ratios are across London now?

    FWIW I was offered a mortgage on 6x my personal income to buy a 2 bed flat. Clearly not just a few quid over...
    "A few quid over the 3x Salary limit" is a classic from TGOHF.


    You seem to have not being paying attention tim.

    It wasn't the Smythe-Pattersons from no 23 Acacia avenue over extending themselves that caused the meltdown - it was your mate Gordon asleep at the wheel.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/sep/30/5


    You seem to think there's been a house price crash in this country.
    Plus massive subprime repossessions,when in fact prices didnt fall much and are back above peak in some areas even before Osbornes bubble pumping gets going
    There has been a house price 'crash' [more a sustained fall] in this country both in nominal and real terms.

    In London prices are close to recovering their 2007 nominal levels but the same does not apply elsewhere in the country.

    Nowhere in the country (except perhaps in luxury prime property in London) have prices recovered in real terms to their 2007 levels.

    Do you want me to post the figures?

    I was rather hoping you would take up a bit of the slack on providing an evidence base for claims about the housing market.

    How about a economic case for building 150,000 'council' dwellings per year? I am waiting.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,953
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    MaxPB said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    The scale of the problem was not due to people taking on loans a few quid over their traditional 3x salary limit.

    A few quid over?

    oh dear, what do you think the earnings/price ratios are across London now?

    FWIW I was offered a mortgage on 6x my personal income to buy a 2 bed flat. Clearly not just a few quid over...
    "A few quid over the 3x Salary limit" is a classic from TGOHF.


    You seem to have not being paying attention tim.

    It wasn't the Smythe-Pattersons from no 23 Acacia avenue over extending themselves that caused the meltdown - it was your mate Gordon asleep at the wheel.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/sep/30/5


    You seem to think there's been a house price crash in this country.
    Plus massive subprime repossessions, when in fact prices didnt fall much and are back above peak in some areas even before Osbornes bubble pumping gets going
    Cobblers. I've just moved house. The price I got for mine was £110k. The price paid for the house next door just before the crash was £142k (and for comparative purposes, I'd estimate that one as having no more than £5k value, based on a new kitchen). The rest is movement in the market.

    At the other end of the scale, one house we looked at buying was on the market for £225k and eventually sold for £195k. They paid £300k five years ago. OK, they wanted a quick sale but even so, that's a substantial reduction and even more when you take account of inflation in the interim.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    edited July 2013
    On-topic: Thermopylae couldn't be won. That doesn't mean it shouldn't've been fought.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,061
    Mr. T, I quite agree. The other day I tweeted something similar (although much shorter, obviously) about TV overtaking films.

    It's also notable just how many British actors are in those US dramas (almost the whole cast of Game of Thrones, Brody and the former CIA director in Homeland, the lead and the governor in The Walking Dead. I don't even watch much TV, and know those off the top of my head).
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,299
    SeanT said:
    Indeed. SeanT, as our resident social media expert, what is your view on the Claire Perry vs Guido spat?
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,953
    tim said:

    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    tim said:

    MaxPB said:

    tim said:

    @TGOHF

    The scale of the problem was not due to people taking on loans a few quid over their traditional 3x salary limit.

    A few quid over?

    oh dear, what do you think the earnings/price ratios are across London now?

    FWIW I was offered a mortgage on 6x my personal income to buy a 2 bed flat. Clearly not just a few quid over...
    "A few quid over the 3x Salary limit" is a classic from TGOHF.


    You seem to have not being paying attention tim.

    It wasn't the Smythe-Pattersons from no 23 Acacia avenue over extending themselves that caused the meltdown - it was your mate Gordon asleep at the wheel.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2007/sep/30/5


    You seem to think there's been a house price crash in this country.
    Plus massive subprime repossessions, when in fact prices didnt fall much and are back above peak in some areas even before Osbornes bubble pumping gets going
    Cobblers. I've just moved house. The price I got for mine was £110k. The price paid for the house next door just before the crash was £142k (and for comparative purposes, I'd estimate that one as having no more than £5k value, based on a new kitchen). The rest is movement in the market.

    At the other end of the scale, one house we looked at buying was on the market for £225k and eventually sold for £195k. They paid £300k five years ago. OK, they wanted a quick sale but even so, that's a substantial reduction and even more when you take account of inflation in the interim.
    Houseprices are around the levels they were two years before the peak.
    And you want Osborne to inflate


    http://monevator.com/historical-uk-house-prices/
    Don't put words in my mouth. You've been found out, you've implicitly changed what you said and are now trying to move things on by causing others to have to defend. Classic McBride type smear.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    "Houseprices are around the levels they were two years before the peak."

    tim, walk outside and tell your neighbours that! They'll laugh their heads off. House prices in Merseyside are still much lower than they were (and, I suspect, in most of the North). Two years before the peak, they were still higher than they are now. London is not the UK.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    @david_herdson

    tim can't even read the graph correctly in the article he linked.

    It shows that house prices in Q3 2011 (as a UK average) were broadly the same in real terms as in Q3 2003, which was some four years before the pre financial crash peak.

    image
  • Sean is right. The BBC is the NHS of content creation.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,953
    tim said:

    @DavidHerdson

    I suggest you go and look at some international price comparisons rather than next doors kitchen.

    Or some historical data

    http://monevator.monevator.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/real-house-prices.jpg

    No house price crash, an adjustment down to levels you usually post were reckless under reckless Brown

    1. Most people will base their own experience on "next door's kitchen", not international comparisons. One is meaningful to them (in all senses), the other is a set of figures.

    2. Just because the bubble had inflated to unhealthy prices, it doesn't mean there wasn't a crash. On the contrary: that's precisely the time crashes do (and did) happen. It's the same as with tulips, the South Sea Company or US stocks in the late '20s.

    As for whether prices are sensible, deflating a bubble without crashing the economy is one of the hardest tricks in the book. Sometimes there will need to be support, sometimes there will need to be restraint. The key is timing and judgement.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,573
    Looks like Claire Perry is about to become the Tory Ms Bercow...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,299
    SeanT said:



    She's making a fool of herself.

    I really hope she continues to do so and it goes to court (where she will lose) and Dave is forced to fire her. Fancy having an adviser about the internet who doesn't actually know how the internet works?!?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    @avery

    And we're in 2013

    Post some data,London is up to peak pretty much

    Here is a small Excel file containing Nationwide's Real Terms House Price Index, together with a trend graph which is identical in format to that in the article you linked earlier, but updated to Q1 2013.

    A few notes:
    1. The figures are UK averages and do not show regional variations.
    2. Nationwide has used RPI rather than CPI as its deflator.

    You will see from the graph that real term prices have fallen on a reasonably consistent trend since 2007 right up to Q1 2013.

    I am sure if we dig harder we will find that central London prime property has not followed the downward trend to the same degree but the overall picture is sound.

    Link: http://www.nationwide.co.uk/hpi/downloads/UK_house_prices_adjusted_for_inflation.xls

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,090
    O/T:

    "De La Rue, based in Basingstoke, Hampshire, produces 150 foreign currencies as well as passports, driving licences and identity cards for several nations":

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14746873
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    SeanT said:
    Quite right Sean, when the BBC try to triumph Doctor Who against the current crop of US TV fair...well its no contest.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,090
    New £10 note from 2017:

    http://i.imgur.com/0dSDKug.jpg
This discussion has been closed.