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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » By-election round up

SystemSystem Posts: 11,689
edited February 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » By-election round up

EXCLUSIVE: UKIP Leader Paul Nuttall admits his claims about losing close friends at #Hillsborough are false https://t.co/CtpCcAh7fA pic.twitter.com/jdzxz7C2aq

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited February 2017
    first, like Labour in Stoke and Copeland.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,979

    first, like Labour in Stoke and Copeland.

    Sneaky edit ;)
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited February 2017
    RobD said:

    first, like Labour in Stoke and Copeland.

    Sneaky edit ;)
    First past the post :-)

    Edit: and all part of the "first" game...
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,820
    Labour are falling from a much higher position in Stoke than the others - if everyone in with a shout is terrile, they will win easily.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,820
    Roger said:


    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    Why not? Is a referendum more important than choosing a government, say?

    I know that there was a minimum majority in relation to one of the Scottish devolution referenda.

    But imposing a minimum bar that has to be reached has got nothing to with whether the people who would vote are incontinent in their procreative habits.

    Would you have been happy with a referendum result 60/40 in favour of Leave if that Leave vote got over the line with the votes of the people you've described?

    Why don't we have a referendum on hanging or on the Guillotine for the murder of children? There are some very uncivilized people in this country and their instincts have to be resisted.
    They could be resisted by defeating their arguments. If one cannot convince sensible people or sway idiots, that's the fault of those making the attempt.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,298
    Falling fast, like ukip
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.
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    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited February 2017
    Roger said:

    It's irreversible. There are many things the country could vote for on a simple majority depending on the mood at the time. Laws take years to bed in. The idea that everything can be thrown into the air to see how they land because a simple majority of morons didn't have any idea of the consequence of their vote is not acceptable.

    Not acceptable !? Do I hear the sound of a petulant foot being stamped ?

    You would have been quite happy with the threshold if Remain had won, and I dare say a 60% threshold would have been unacceptable if Leave won even so.
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    Two candidates each more ghastly than the other. – It started in America… :lol:
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    kle4 said:

    Roger said:


    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    Why not? Is a referendum more important than choosing a government, say?

    I know that there was a minimum majority in relation to one of the Scottish devolution referenda.

    But imposing a minimum bar that has to be reached has got nothing to with whether the people who would vote are incontinent in their procreative habits.

    Would you have been happy with a referendum result 60/40 in favour of Leave if that Leave vote got over the line with the votes of the people you've described?

    Why don't we have a referendum on hanging or on the Guillotine for the murder of children? There are some very uncivilized people in this country and their instincts have to be resisted.
    They could be resisted by defeating their arguments. If one cannot convince sensible people or sway idiots, that's the fault of those making the attempt.
    Didn't you know Roger was out knocking on doors for months before the referendum, although possibly doors of nice cafes and interesting restaurants ;)
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Roger said:


    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT. The second and final episode of 'Moorside' tonight. Shouldn't be missed. Brexiteers in all their glory.

    WWC (mainly) people who stuck together to support one of their number who was in trouble. That that person was a rather sad fantasist is irrelevant.
    The point is that the people represented should not have been given the power to determine the country's future when they couldn't even work out how many children they had or who they belonged too.

    (For those who haven't seen it that's no exaggeration and I'm told it was pretty well researched)
    So what criteria would you have for the vote, Roger?

    A property qualification, maybe? An IQ test? Not committing adultery? Not having children out of wedlock? What, exactly?

    for a referendum of such importance a simple majority wasn't a sensible idea.
    Why not? Is a referendum more important than choosing a government, say?

    I know that there was a minimum majority in relation to one of the Scottish devolution referenda.

    But imposing a minimum bar that has to be reached has got nothing to with whether the people who would vote are incontinent in their procreative habits.

    Would you have been happy with a referendum result 60/40 in favour of Leave if that Leave vote got over the line with the votes of the people you've described?

    Why don't we have a referendum on hanging or on the Guillotine for the murder of children? There are some very uncivilized people in this country and their instincts have to be resisted.
    They could be resisted by defeating their arguments. If one cannot convince sensible people or sway idiots, that's the fault of those making the attempt.
    Roger - did you ever consider the argument that if more child killers were guillotined fewer children would get killed?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited February 2017
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,082
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    Nailed it!

    Or, as Walter Scott apparently wrote:
    “Oh, what a tangled web we weave...when first we practice to deceive.”
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,827

    first, like Labour in Stoke and Copeland.

    #OperationSaveJezza
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    Stoke constituents will be the losers as neither labour or Ukip candidates are acceptable representatives of the electorate. I am really sorry for Stoke and have little doubt labour will retain the seat. However is it one of those seats that will go on boundary changes as that would be the best outcome for everyone
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
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    llefllef Posts: 298
    any reason why Labour's odds in Copeland have zoomed out to 4.5 from 3.5?
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited February 2017
    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    Points taken. I also like what I perceive to be her social ( lefty? ) views.
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    llef said:

    any reason why Labour's odds in Copeland have zoomed out to 4.5 from 3.5?

    Maybe Toshiba confirming their investment today - Corbyn wants it scrapped
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    SeanT said:

    Toms said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    Points taken. I also like her what I perceive to be her social ( lefty? ) views.
    You might be intrigued to hear that JK Rowling flattened a £1m house next door to hers, just so she could "extend her garden".

    Quite the socialist.
    It will help her avoid the courgette crisis.....
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    llefllef Posts: 298
    Big_G_NorthWales - ok thanks
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    llef said:

    any reason why Labour's odds in Copeland have zoomed out to 4.5 from 3.5?

    Maybe Toshiba confirming their investment today - Corbyn wants it scrapped
    Doesn't look like confirming investment to me, from what I could make out with the radio interview it sounded like now was an opportune time to pump the government for underwriting assurances...........

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/14/toshiba-takes-5bn-nuclear-writedown-chairman-resigns/
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Toms said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    Points taken. I also like what I perceive to be her social ( lefty? ) views.
    I have no strong views on her opinions except to the extent that her sales did not relate in any meaningful way to her political opinions - she's no Solzhenitsyn and hasn't fully realised her literary boundaries.
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited February 2017
    SeanT said:

    Toms said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    Points taken. I also like her what I perceive to be her social ( lefty? ) views.
    You might be intrigued to hear that JK Rowling flattened a £1m house next door to hers, just so she could "extend her garden".

    Quite the socialist.
    People err. It's a bit like those approval polls. I fear I may be running negative.
    Too much money can be dangerous for one's soul. In the long run maybe she'll give most of her dough away. Lots of rich Americans do.
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    Pulpstar said:

    llef said:

    any reason why Labour's odds in Copeland have zoomed out to 4.5 from 3.5?

    Maybe Toshiba confirming their investment today - Corbyn wants it scrapped
    Doesn't look like confirming investment to me, from what I could make out with the radio interview it sounded like now was an opportune time to pump the government for underwriting assurances...........

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/14/toshiba-takes-5bn-nuclear-writedown-chairman-resigns/
    Toshiba confirmed their investment in Cumbria today notwithstanding their problems. The unions are seeking confirmation that the UK government will support the project. That question will compromise Corbyn who is against the whole construction of the power station
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    Barcelona 2 down in Paris
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    Pulpstar said:

    llef said:

    any reason why Labour's odds in Copeland have zoomed out to 4.5 from 3.5?

    Maybe Toshiba confirming their investment today - Corbyn wants it scrapped
    Doesn't look like confirming investment to me, from what I could make out with the radio interview it sounded like now was an opportune time to pump the government for underwriting assurances...........

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/14/toshiba-takes-5bn-nuclear-writedown-chairman-resigns/
    Toshiba confirmed their investment in Cumbria today notwithstanding their problems. The unions are seeking confirmation that the UK government will support the project. That question will compromise Corbyn who is against the whole construction of the power station
    I'm not particularly opposed or in favour of nuclear power, it should compete with other power generation sources on equal terms though.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,933
    The form of Arsenal's Group topping exploits being franked en Paris...
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    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    llef said:

    any reason why Labour's odds in Copeland have zoomed out to 4.5 from 3.5?

    Maybe Toshiba confirming their investment today - Corbyn wants it scrapped
    Doesn't look like confirming investment to me, from what I could make out with the radio interview it sounded like now was an opportune time to pump the government for underwriting assurances...........

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/14/toshiba-takes-5bn-nuclear-writedown-chairman-resigns/
    Toshiba confirmed their investment in Cumbria today notwithstanding their problems. The unions are seeking confirmation that the UK government will support the project. That question will compromise Corbyn who is against the whole construction of the power station
    I'm not particularly opposed or in favour of nuclear power, it should compete with other power generation sources on equal terms though.
    The problem for labour is that the project employs thousands and Corbyn's opposition will be seen as a threat to all those jobs and the supply chain in the area
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    It's irreversible. There are many things the country could vote for on a simple majority depending on the mood at the time. Laws take years to bed in. The idea that everything can be thrown into the air to see how they land because a simple majority of morons didn't have any idea of the consequence of their vote is not acceptable.

    Not acceptable !? Do I hear the sound of a petulant foot being stamped ?

    You would have been quite happy with the threshold if Remain had won, and I dare say a 60% threshold would have been unacceptable if Leave won even so.
    It's difficult to argue logically against accepting the will of the majority other than by giving examples of its unacceptable face. In Saudi Arabia public executions attract a bigger crowd than football matches and it's a show for the whole family. You might argue that Saudis are uncivilized but following your logic that isn't an issue. Homosexuality is illegal and I daresay its illegality would be the will of the people if they were asked.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    llef said:

    any reason why Labour's odds in Copeland have zoomed out to 4.5 from 3.5?

    Maybe Toshiba confirming their investment today - Corbyn wants it scrapped
    Doesn't look like confirming investment to me, from what I could make out with the radio interview it sounded like now was an opportune time to pump the government for underwriting assurances...........

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/14/toshiba-takes-5bn-nuclear-writedown-chairman-resigns/
    Toshiba confirmed their investment in Cumbria today notwithstanding their problems. The unions are seeking confirmation that the UK government will support the project. That question will compromise Corbyn who is against the whole construction of the power station
    I'm not particularly opposed or in favour of nuclear power, it should compete with other power generation sources on equal terms though.
    The problem for labour is that the project employs thousands and Corbyn's opposition will be seen as a threat to all those jobs and the supply chain in the area
    Civil nuclear power has always been always little more than a failed part of the military-industrial complex. A difficult conversation between Union Labour and social conscience Labour.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Barcelona 2 down in Paris

    Damn, I had a bet on Barcelona.
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    matt said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    llef said:

    any reason why Labour's odds in Copeland have zoomed out to 4.5 from 3.5?

    Maybe Toshiba confirming their investment today - Corbyn wants it scrapped
    Doesn't look like confirming investment to me, from what I could make out with the radio interview it sounded like now was an opportune time to pump the government for underwriting assurances...........

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/14/toshiba-takes-5bn-nuclear-writedown-chairman-resigns/
    Toshiba confirmed their investment in Cumbria today notwithstanding their problems. The unions are seeking confirmation that the UK government will support the project. That question will compromise Corbyn who is against the whole construction of the power station
    I'm not particularly opposed or in favour of nuclear power, it should compete with other power generation sources on equal terms though.
    The problem for labour is that the project employs thousands and Corbyn's opposition will be seen as a threat to all those jobs and the supply chain in the area
    Civil nuclear power has always been always little more than a failed part of the military-industrial complex. A difficult conversation between Union Labour and social conscience Labour.
    Jobs before dogma - pretty sure in Cumbria and with the long established Sellafield plant the jobs will triumph (a few weeks ago I would have said Trump but there we are)
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    AndyJS said:

    Barcelona 2 down in Paris

    Damn, I had a bet on Barcelona.
    They were poor in the first half
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Just remembered Y0kel said there will be more Russia related Trump leaks this week.


    Just a working class pizza boy from Belfast my anus.
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    matt said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    llef said:

    any reason why Labour's odds in Copeland have zoomed out to 4.5 from 3.5?

    Maybe Toshiba confirming their investment today - Corbyn wants it scrapped
    Doesn't look like confirming investment to me, from what I could make out with the radio interview it sounded like now was an opportune time to pump the government for underwriting assurances...........

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/14/toshiba-takes-5bn-nuclear-writedown-chairman-resigns/
    Toshiba confirmed their investment in Cumbria today notwithstanding their problems. The unions are seeking confirmation that the UK government will support the project. That question will compromise Corbyn who is against the whole construction of the power station
    I'm not particularly opposed or in favour of nuclear power, it should compete with other power generation sources on equal terms though.
    The problem for labour is that the project employs thousands and Corbyn's opposition will be seen as a threat to all those jobs and the supply chain in the area
    Civil nuclear power has always been always little more than a failed part of the military-industrial complex. A difficult conversation between Union Labour and social conscience Labour.
    Jobs before dogma - pretty sure in Cumbria and with the long established Sellafield plant the jobs will triumph (a few weeks ago I would have said Trump but there we are)
    Just say May if she is visiting the area it must be in the bag.
  • Options
    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)
  • Options
    Yorkcity said:

    matt said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    llef said:

    any reason why Labour's odds in Copeland have zoomed out to 4.5 from 3.5?

    Maybe Toshiba confirming their investment today - Corbyn wants it scrapped
    Doesn't look like confirming investment to me, from what I could make out with the radio interview it sounded like now was an opportune time to pump the government for underwriting assurances...........

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/02/14/toshiba-takes-5bn-nuclear-writedown-chairman-resigns/
    Toshiba confirmed their investment in Cumbria today notwithstanding their problems. The unions are seeking confirmation that the UK government will support the project. That question will compromise Corbyn who is against the whole construction of the power station
    I'm not particularly opposed or in favour of nuclear power, it should compete with other power generation sources on equal terms though.
    The problem for labour is that the project employs thousands and Corbyn's opposition will be seen as a threat to all those jobs and the supply chain in the area
    Civil nuclear power has always been always little more than a failed part of the military-industrial complex. A difficult conversation between Union Labour and social conscience Labour.
    Jobs before dogma - pretty sure in Cumbria and with the long established Sellafield plant the jobs will triumph (a few weeks ago I would have said Trump but there we are)
    Just say May if she is visiting the area it must be in the bag.
    Seems she has had direct talks with Trump today on security, trade and his state visit
  • Options
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    It's irreversible. There are many things the country could vote for on a simple majority depending on the mood at the time. Laws take years to bed in. The idea that everything can be thrown into the air to see how they land because a simple majority of morons didn't have any idea of the consequence of their vote is not acceptable.

    Not acceptable !? Do I hear the sound of a petulant foot being stamped ?

    You would have been quite happy with the threshold if Remain had won, and I dare say a 60% threshold would have been unacceptable if Leave won even so.
    It's difficult to argue logically against accepting the will of the majority other than by giving examples of its unacceptable face. In Saudi Arabia public executions attract a bigger crowd than football matches and it's a show for the whole family. You might argue that Saudis are uncivilized but following your logic that isn't an issue. Homosexuality is illegal and I daresay its illegality would be the will of the people if they were asked.
    I think the problem there is that democracy and religious fundamentalism (of any stripe) are pretty much mutually exclusive concepts.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)

    The so far proposed new boundaries are not the new boundaries we will end up with . They are being reviewed and revised at the moment .
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    Blimey Barcelona 3 down in Paris
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    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)

    The so far proposed new boundaries are not the new boundaries we will end up with . They are being reviewed and revised at the moment .
    Are they going to be subject to a referendum
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    Never seen Barcelona so poor
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,820

    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)

    The so far proposed new boundaries are not the new boundaries we will end up with . They are being reviewed and revised at the moment .
    Any idea yet when we'll see proposed revisions?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,013

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    It's irreversible. There are many things the country could vote for on a simple majority depending on the mood at the time. Laws take years to bed in. The idea that everything can be thrown into the air to see how they land because a simple majority of morons didn't have any idea of the consequence of their vote is not acceptable.

    Not acceptable !? Do I hear the sound of a petulant foot being stamped ?

    You would have been quite happy with the threshold if Remain had won, and I dare say a 60% threshold would have been unacceptable if Leave won even so.
    It's difficult to argue logically against accepting the will of the majority other than by giving examples of its unacceptable face. In Saudi Arabia public executions attract a bigger crowd than football matches and it's a show for the whole family. You might argue that Saudis are uncivilized but following your logic that isn't an issue. Homosexuality is illegal and I daresay its illegality would be the will of the people if they were asked.
    I think the problem there is that democracy and religious fundamentalism (of any stripe) are pretty much mutually exclusive concepts.
    Democracy merely means rule by the people. If the people choose religious fanatics, what are you to do?

    Or do we say that certain rights are inalieable, and a majority cannot wish them away?
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    FPT:
    MarqueeMark said:

    I imagine the two resigning MPs must be thinking that it is all going nicely to plan.

    One factor in Stoke I haven't seen mentioned - and that is Tristram Hunt leaving the job of MP for a cushy post at the V&A. People generally don't like by-elections where someone has tazzed off for a better offer. I was active in the 1977 Ashfield by-election, a rock-solid Labour seat where David Marquand went off to a job in the EEC (as it then was) to work for Roy Jenkins. The Tories won the seat with a 20% swing - speaking to Labour folks afterwards, they just couldn't get their voters out. Anybody who has been to Stoke/phone banked for it found this given as a reason for changed votes?
    ---------

    No, I was looking out for it. One voter said that in general terms he hadn't much liked recent MPs and was pleased the candidate was a local bloke though he didn't know him. Nobody else commente positively or negatively about any candidate except Nuttall (about whom comments were 100% negative, even from people still planning to vote for him).

    But I think everyone is going to struggle to get their vote out, frankly. It didn't feel like a constituency panting for the chance to cast February votes.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,013
    SeanT said:

    Toms said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    Points taken. I also like her what I perceive to be her social ( lefty? ) views.
    You might be intrigued to hear that JK Rowling flattened a £1m house next door to hers, just so she could "extend her garden".

    Quite the socialist.
    And that's a problem, why?
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    nunu said:

    Just remembered Y0kel said there will be more Russia related Trump leaks this week.


    Just a working class pizza boy from Belfast my anus.

    He has good "Middle Eastern" contacts!
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,298
    edited February 2017
    kle4 said:

    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)

    The so far proposed new boundaries are not the new boundaries we will end up with . They are being reviewed and revised at the moment .
    Any idea yet when we'll see proposed revisions?
    In the spring the representations on the draft proposals will be published. There is then a period for further representations that lasts into the summer, I don't think we will see the revised proposals until much later in the year.
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    kle4 said:

    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)

    The so far proposed new boundaries are not the new boundaries we will end up with . They are being reviewed and revised at the moment .
    Any idea yet when we'll see proposed revisions?
    Still some months away and there will be further revisions in some areas after that
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    SeanT said:

    Toms said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    Points taken. I also like her what I perceive to be her social ( lefty? ) views.
    You might be intrigued to hear that JK Rowling flattened a £1m house next door to hers, just so she could "extend her garden".

    Quite the socialist.
    If the house flattened was occupied by Tories, nice job done.
  • Options
    Now 4 in Paris
  • Options

    Now 4 in Paris

    Much more important game in Norwich tonight
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,820
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)

    The so far proposed new boundaries are not the new boundaries we will end up with . They are being reviewed and revised at the moment .
    Any idea yet when we'll see proposed revisions?
    In the spring the representations on the draft proposals will be published. There is then a period for further representations that lasts into the summer, I don't think we will see the revised proposals until much later in the year.
    Thanks. Shame, I am quite interested in how some of the boundaries will work out.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    Toms said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    Points taken. I also like her what I perceive to be her social ( lefty? ) views.
    You might be intrigued to hear that JK Rowling flattened a £1m house next door to hers, just so she could "extend her garden".

    Quite the socialist.
    If the house flattened was occupied by Tories, nice job done.
    What an ugly post...
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    It's irreversible. There are many things the country could vote for on a simple majority depending on the mood at the time. Laws take years to bed in. The idea that everything can be thrown into the air to see how they land because a simple majority of morons didn't have any idea of the consequence of their vote is not acceptable.

    Not acceptable !? Do I hear the sound of a petulant foot being stamped ?

    You would have been quite happy with the threshold if Remain had won, and I dare say a 60% threshold would have been unacceptable if Leave won even so.
    It's difficult to argue logically against accepting the will of the majority other than by giving examples of its unacceptable face. In Saudi Arabia public executions attract a bigger crowd than football matches and it's a show for the whole family. You might argue that Saudis are uncivilized but following your logic that isn't an issue. Homosexuality is illegal and I daresay its illegality would be the will of the people if they were asked.
    I think the problem there is that democracy and religious fundamentalism (of any stripe) are pretty much mutually exclusive concepts.
    Religious fundamentalists may well believe they have a right (and duty) to govern, regardless of the will of the majority. But, they may also contest and win elections, and govern in line with the will of the majority (eg Iran).

    It's a thorny question, to what extent are majorities allowed to impose oppressive laws on minorities.

    Fortunately, it doesn't arise in the case of Brexit (regardless of whether one is in favour or not). Nobody is being oppressed.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    Now 4 in Paris

    Thoroughly deserved as well.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    rcs1000 said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    It's irreversible. There are many things the country could vote for on a simple majority depending on the mood at the time. Laws take years to bed in. The idea that everything can be thrown into the air to see how they land because a simple majority of morons didn't have any idea of the consequence of their vote is not acceptable.

    Not acceptable !? Do I hear the sound of a petulant foot being stamped ?

    You would have been quite happy with the threshold if Remain had won, and I dare say a 60% threshold would have been unacceptable if Leave won even so.
    It's difficult to argue logically against accepting the will of the majority other than by giving examples of its unacceptable face. In Saudi Arabia public executions attract a bigger crowd than football matches and it's a show for the whole family. You might argue that Saudis are uncivilized but following your logic that isn't an issue. Homosexuality is illegal and I daresay its illegality would be the will of the people if they were asked.
    I think the problem there is that democracy and religious fundamentalism (of any stripe) are pretty much mutually exclusive concepts.
    Democracy merely means rule by the people. If the people choose religious fanatics, what are you to do?

    Or do we say that certain rights are inalieable, and a majority cannot wish them away?
    The inalienable rights are only a human idea, that don't exist in nature, you need some form of government to create these rights in the first place. They can be trivially wished away, and what we consider right today is very different from what was considered right in the past, or will be considered right in the future.

    Democracy isn't perfect but the idea that the "little people" aren't up to the job of voting, and that we ought to have something like a plutocracy would be at least as bad.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,298
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)

    The so far proposed new boundaries are not the new boundaries we will end up with . They are being reviewed and revised at the moment .
    Any idea yet when we'll see proposed revisions?
    In the spring the representations on the draft proposals will be published. There is then a period for further representations that lasts into the summer, I don't think we will see the revised proposals until much later in the year.
    Thanks. Shame, I am quite interested in how some of the boundaries will work out.
    The target date for the revised proposals is around the end of 2017. There is then a short further consultation before the final proposals, almost spring 2018. The actual decision (normally a rubber stamp, although this time you never know) is by Parliament in autumn 2018.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

  • Options
    chestnut said:

    Now 4 in Paris

    Thoroughly deserved as well.
    When did Barcelona last have only one attempt on goal after 80 minutes
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    Toms said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    Points taken. I also like her what I perceive to be her social ( lefty? ) views.
    You might be intrigued to hear that JK Rowling flattened a £1m house next door to hers, just so she could "extend her garden".

    Quite the socialist.
    If the house flattened was occupied by Tories, nice job done.
    If the house flattened was occupied by Muslims, nice job done.

    If the house flattened was occupied by immigrants, nice job done.

    If the house flattened was occupied by Jews, etc etc

    See how that works?

    If it was occupied by Jews then don't worry - we would have made a very nice profit on the sale, cheers!
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

    Really? I read the first one pretty much as it came out, and came up with one of my greatest predictions, which was: this will never catch on, derivative snobbery derived from Billy Bunter and Enid Blyton, with a dash of C.S.Lewis thrown in. In particular the inherited wealth and public school motifs seemed at odds with zeitgeist, what with New Labour sweeping the board at a G.E. And I still think I was right, except for the not catching on bit.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited February 2017
    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

    Yep, that's a fair summary. See GRR Martin for a further example of letting an author who has success lead to insufficient editing.
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited February 2017
    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

    I kind of agree. Editors can be critically important.
    This is nowhere near the class of Jane Austen who, I seem to have read somewhere, had a critically useful though diffident editor.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

    Really? I read the first one pretty much as it came out, and came up with one of my greatest predictions, which was: this will never catch on, derivative snobbery derived from Billy Bunter and Enid Blyton, with a dash of C.S.Lewis thrown in. In particular the inherited wealth and public school motifs seemed at odds with zeitgeist, what with New Labour sweeping the board at a G.E. And I still think I was right, except for the not catching on bit.
    Have you checked if you have a first edition? Might make up for the prediction fail...
  • Options
    Is it too late for Sturgeon to field a candidate in Stoke? The Scot Nats would probably win it.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    matt said:



    Yep, that's a fair summary. See GRR Martin for a further example of letting an author who has success lead to insufficient editing.

    And insufficient writing. Do you think he'll EVER finish?

    Read an early book by him, fantasy stuff around the Burning Man event. Really quite good, better than when he got trapped in the Game of Thrones formula - it's readable in a what=happens-next? sense, but not relaly good writing.
  • Options
    scotslass said:

    Is it too late for Sturgeon to field a candidate in Stoke? The Scot Nats would probably win it.

    More likely to unite the opposition
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

    i could barely get through Harry Potter 1, and have not bothered with the others (tho I hear they improve)

    Now Philip Pullman, there you're talking. Horrible lefty politics, but a truly great "kids' writer", with a noble prose style and terrific imaginative gifts. Masterpieces.

    Better than most Booker prize winners.
    Agree about Pullman, although I don't think I will ever want to re-read them. Some of his early little novels in Victorian settings were catchy. Some of his fury about living conditions of poor people seems to me to match Dickens's.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

    Really? I read the first one pretty much as it came out, and came up with one of my greatest predictions, which was: this will never catch on, derivative snobbery derived from Billy Bunter and Enid Blyton, with a dash of C.S.Lewis thrown in. In particular the inherited wealth and public school motifs seemed at odds with zeitgeist, what with New Labour sweeping the board at a G.E. And I still think I was right, except for the not catching on bit.
    Being at odds with the zeitgeist may have helped (ironically, given Rowling's political views). There's nothing wrong with being compared to CS Lewis or Enid Blyton, and most authors would be delighted to be as successful.

    I can understand why the books were popular. I can't understand why they were * so popular* (450 m sales). I certainly wouldn't rate her above authors like Ursula Le Guin, Dianne Wynne Jones, Rosemary Sutcliffe, Alan Garner, who sold in the millions, but not the hundreds of millions.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

    Really? I read the first one pretty much as it came out, and came up with one of my greatest predictions, which was: this will never catch on, derivative snobbery derived from Billy Bunter and Enid Blyton, with a dash of C.S.Lewis thrown in. In particular the inherited wealth and public school motifs seemed at odds with zeitgeist, what with New Labour sweeping the board at a G.E. And I still think I was right, except for the not catching on bit.
    Have you checked if you have a first edition? Might make up for the prediction fail...
    It's the paperback, but possibly worth a bob or two.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    J K Rowling plots well, brings everything together nicely without being too obvious, has a good twist, and an emotional punch for the ending.

    She writes well.

    She was lucky they caught on, of course, but that doesn't undermine her writing.

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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    edited February 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Mortimer said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

    Really? I read the first one pretty much as it came out, and came up with one of my greatest predictions, which was: this will never catch on, derivative snobbery derived from Billy Bunter and Enid Blyton, with a dash of C.S.Lewis thrown in. In particular the inherited wealth and public school motifs seemed at odds with zeitgeist, what with New Labour sweeping the board at a G.E. And I still think I was right, except for the not catching on bit.
    Have you checked if you have a first edition? Might make up for the prediction fail...
    It's the paperback, but possibly worth a bob or two.
    Maybe. I always ask as there are probably still a few unidentified hardback firsts out there. A friend of mine used to be somewhat of a specialist.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,298
    edited February 2017
    SeanT said:

    Serious question: will Brexit have any serious negative effect on the British economy AT ALL?

    The fall in sterling aside, and a slight rise in inflation (both arguably desirable) I can't see ANYTHING.

    Yes yes I know, we've not Brexited yet. But the lack of apocalypse is still really quite striking.

    The first part of your sentence contains the answer to your question. We won't know anything until it happens (and probably not definitively for some years thereafter). Which - apart from everyone's reluctance to wait and see - really is not surprising.
  • Options

    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)

    It looks impossible, until it isn't.

    Angela Merkel was a dead cert a month ago.
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    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    It's irreversible. There are many things the country could vote for on a simple majority depending on the mood at the time. Laws take years to bed in. The idea that everything can be thrown into the air to see how they land because a simple majority of morons didn't have any idea of the consequence of their vote is not acceptable.

    Not acceptable !? Do I hear the sound of a petulant foot being stamped ?

    You would have been quite happy with the threshold if Remain had won, and I dare say a 60% threshold would have been unacceptable if Leave won even so.
    It's difficult to argue logically against accepting the will of the majority other than by giving examples of its unacceptable face. In Saudi Arabia public executions attract a bigger crowd than football matches and it's a show for the whole family. You might argue that Saudis are uncivilized but following your logic that isn't an issue. Homosexuality is illegal and I daresay its illegality would be the will of the people if they were asked.
    I think the problem there is that democracy and religious fundamentalism (of any stripe) are pretty much mutually exclusive concepts.
    Religious fundamentalists may well believe they have a right (and duty) to govern, regardless of the will of the majority. But, they may also contest and win elections, and govern in line with the will of the majority (eg Iran).

    It's a thorny question, to what extent are majorities allowed to impose oppressive laws on minorities.

    Fortunately, it doesn't arise in the case of Brexit (regardless of whether one is in favour or not). Nobody is being oppressed.
    Speak for yourself. I'm looking forward to doing a lot of oppressing.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

    I must be unusual. None of them grabbed me.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,082

    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)

    It looks impossible, until it isn't.

    Angela Merkel was a dead cert a month ago.
    A couple of months ago I said the AfD would be squeezed by a campaign message of, "Vote AfD, get a coalition of the left." I was told this wouldn't be a credible message...
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    Serious question: will Brexit have any serious negative effect on the British economy AT ALL?

    The fall in sterling aside, and a slight rise in inflation (both arguably desirable) I can't see ANYTHING.

    Yes yes I know, we've not Brexited yet. But the lack of apocalypse is still really quite striking.

    It's not inconceivable that there might be a Brexit boom, particularly if the US over-regulates/ goes isolationist, and the EU continues to stagnate/integrate and suffers from political paralysis.

    And precisely no-one will have seen it coming.

    Our story is not yet told.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    SeanT said:

    Serious question: will Brexit have any serious negative effect on the British economy AT ALL?

    The fall in sterling aside, and a slight rise in inflation (both arguably desirable) I can't see ANYTHING.

    Yes yes I know, we've not Brexited yet. But the lack of apocalypse is still really quite striking.

    Even the EU had to row back on their projections of woe in the last week or so.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Nuttall's press officer has resigned.
  • Options
    Scott_P said:
    I was right then - a bungling functionary would take the rap.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,966
    edited February 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    It's irreversible. There are many things the country could vote for on a simple majority depending on the mood at the time. Laws take years to bed in. The idea that everything can be thrown into the air to see how they land because a simple majority of morons didn't have any idea of the consequence of their vote is not acceptable.

    Not acceptable !? Do I hear the sound of a petulant foot being stamped ?

    You would have been quite happy with the threshold if Remain had won, and I dare say a 60% threshold would have been unacceptable if Leave won even so.
    It's difficult to argue logically against accepting the will of the majority other than by giving examples of its unacceptable face. In Saudi Arabia public executions attract a bigger crowd than football matches and it's a show for the whole family. You might argue that Saudis are uncivilized but following your logic that isn't an issue. Homosexuality is illegal and I daresay its illegality would be the will of the people if they were asked.
    I think the problem there is that democracy and religious fundamentalism (of any stripe) are pretty much mutually exclusive concepts.
    Democracy merely means rule by the people. If the people choose religious fanatics, what are you to do?

    Or do we say that certain rights are inalieable, and a majority cannot wish them away?
    The problem being that religious fundamentalism does not generally allow democracy as we would understand it - the right of people to self determination through an electoral system. Democracy can of course vote in a religiously fundamental government but what inevitably happens is that the government then realises that democracy is a threat and so makes sure it doesn't get a chance to vote them out again.

    Of course you can have a semi-democratic system as in Iran but you would quite quickly realise how limited that appearance of democracy was if you tried to get rid of the theocratic system that has ultimate control.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,820
    dr_spyn said:

    Nuttall's press officer has resigned.

    I guess it could be true, although given its probably in the job description to fall on one's sword on such occasions, I cannot help be cynical. I mean, with a major organisation there really probably are plenty of statements attributed to leader's which didn't get their sign off, but in my limited experience people are usually very very careful to sign off on anything that is supposed to be in their name.
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    I haven't done any decent work tonight. I sit here with my newly hugely refurbished 60 year old valve amplifier upside down on the bench playing mono into a BBC LS3/5A speaker.

    Having constructed an intricate valve preamplifier I decided to just play the CD and VHF directly into the amp with a simple potentiometer volume control. I can't tear myself away from the sound. I shall have to similarly refurbish its companion amp to achieve stereo.

    These are keepers. They can bury me with 'em like Danes of old with their swords.
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    Scott_P said:

    ttps://twitter.com/sophyridgesky/status/831622514472267776

    Paul Nuttall's press officer may have resigned, but it’s a little too late imo and will do nothing to prevent the Hillsborough claim from being repeated again, and again and ag……. etc.
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    midwintermidwinter Posts: 1,112
    Sean_F said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Sean_F said:

    matt said:

    Toms said:

    A semi-sequitur from of the previous thread :
    I think JK Rowling is fantastic.

    Her books have made children read - although to an adult eye they could do with some editing, to a child more is frequently more. Although the less said about her foray into adult literature the better - that wore her political views on its sleeve and was perhaps unhelpful to its success. That's what I mean about success corrupting her writing approach.
    The first three Harry Potters are classics of childrens' literature. The remaining four have good bits, but suffer from bloat.

    Really? I read the first one pretty much as it came out, and came up with one of my greatest predictions, which was: this will never catch on, derivative snobbery derived from Billy Bunter and Enid Blyton, with a dash of C.S.Lewis thrown in. In particular the inherited wealth and public school motifs seemed at odds with zeitgeist, what with New Labour sweeping the board at a G.E. And I still think I was right, except for the not catching on bit.
    Being at odds with the zeitgeist may have helped (ironically, given Rowling's political views). There's nothing wrong with being compared to CS Lewis or Enid Blyton, and most authors would be delighted to be as successful.

    I can understand why the books were popular. I can't understand why they were * so popular* (450 m sales). I certainly wouldn't rate her above authors like Ursula Le Guin, Dianne Wynne Jones, Rosemary Sutcliffe, Alan Garner, who sold in the millions, but not the hundreds of millions.
    Absolutely CS Lewis and some of Enid Blytons adventure books were/are brilliant. John Buchan wrote some great adventure books for children too. Greenmantle and Mr Standfast are wonderful. More recently Pulmans His Dark Materials trilogy is a masterpiece.
  • Options

    With all the talk of Labour's problems, I thought it would be helpful to see just how bad their situation is on the proposed new boundaries (using Electoral Calculus). If I just move the Lab and Con scores and keep all the other parties the same then we get the follows:

    C 37.8%, L 31.2% - the same result as 2015 leads to a Con majority of 40 on the new boundaries
    C 35.7%, L33.3% - Lab deprive Con of their majority by taking Broxtowe and Hucknall (projected maj 2,183)
    C 34.4%, L34.6% - Lab become the largest party in terms of votes but are still 55 seats behind the Tories. They do pick up Ribble S (predicted maj 3,903)
    C 32.2% L36.8% - Lab become the largest party in terms of seats (but are 40 short of a majority) by taking Northampton N (predicted maj 5,533). 3 prominent Con casualties are Rudd, Bojo and IDS (the latter two's seats have adverse boundary changes)
    C 28.3% L40.7% - Lab match Tony's Blair's vote share in 2001but are still 6 short of a majority. Seats picked up include Cities of London and Westminster (maj 8,963) and Shrewsbury
    C 27.9% L41.1% - Lab finally get a majority of 4 by picking up Gravesham (11,006)

    It's striking how Lab would do much so worse now on a Blair style landslide vote. The main reasons for this are:

    - The over-representation of Scotland has ended and that of Wales is going
    - The loss of Scotland (even in the best scenario above Lab only pick up 2 seats from the SNP)
    - The unwind of Lab/LD tactical voting
    - Con vote is better distributed and Lab's is worse
    - The South (outside London) is gaining electorate faster than other regions

    So even if Corbyn goes, it looks very hard for Lab to win outright (they would probably need to run a minority government or coalition)

    The so far proposed new boundaries are not the new boundaries we will end up with . They are being reviewed and revised at the moment .
    I'm aware of that. Individual seats may change but I suspect the overall picture will end up fairly similar to the numbers above
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,979
    Scott_P said:
    His Royal Dukedom is beyond doubt though, surely?
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    So Trump has done his best via Sean Spicer to burn off Mike Flynn with his apparently firm and decisive action.

    The potential for Flynn is that things may get worse as a private citizen because he has talked to the FBI and they wont be happy if he bullshitted them.

    As for Spicer, Comical Ali wouldn't be in it. Trump tried to keep Flynn and Trump knew Flynn had bullshitted about the conversations with the Russians.

    And that is only part of it.

    The spooks, as I mentioned the other night, are heavily dependent on legislative branch doing their job, particularly in the Senate and there are some signs that enough GOP types there will break ranks.


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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Floater said:

    SeanT said:

    Serious question: will Brexit have any serious negative effect on the British economy AT ALL?

    The fall in sterling aside, and a slight rise in inflation (both arguably desirable) I can't see ANYTHING.

    Yes yes I know, we've not Brexited yet. But the lack of apocalypse is still really quite striking.

    Even the EU had to row back on their projections of woe in the last week or so.
    They have cut 2018 growth.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MrHarryCole: To recap..long standing Nuttall press officer has not resigned but offered resignation for running Nuttall's website.. it was 'turned down'
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited February 2017
    nunu said:

    Just remembered Y0kel said there will be more Russia related Trump leaks this week.


    Just a working class pizza boy from Belfast my anus.

    His retirement job is managing a pizza franchise. And his sauces are fresh
This discussion has been closed.