politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn is going nowhere – for now

System

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn is going nowhere – for now

The good news for Jeremy Corbyn is that he is not the most unpopular politician in the UK. The bad news is that the two men who beat him to top spot are Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. With the Labour leader being kept out of view from voters in Stoke and featuring prominently on Tory campaign literature in Copeland, and the party’s overall poll ratings continuing to slide on the back of the highly divisive and utterly pointless decision to three line whip Labour MPs through the lobbies in support of Tory Hard Brexit, it is no surprise that talk of Corbyn’s leadership is once again front page news. As TSE observed today, it’s becoming a question of when he goes, not whether.

Read the full story here

FrancisUrquhart

First....Lets make America New Threads great again...

That photo is one that always brings a smile to my face.

isam

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

dr_spyn

one for @twistedfirestopper and others.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-12/man-lowered-80ft-to-safety-after-being-injured-in-cathedral-bell-tower/

IanB2

Fourth like UKIp

dr_spyn

one for @twistedfirestopper and others.

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-02-12/man-lowered-80ft-to-safety-after-being-injured-in-cathedral-bell-tower/

isam

"As TSE observed today, it’s becoming a question of when he goes, not whether"

Was there a chance he might stay forever then?

Philip_Thompson

The bigger issue to be decided by the lack of far left keyboard warrior success in more day to day meetings is the failure to reshape the makeup of MPs. In every by-election the nominee has not been a Corbynista. Talk of "mandatory reselection" now seems to be dead in the water but even if it wasn't the so-called moderates would win their reselection battles anyway.

Which means it is a matter of when, not if, that the moderate left regains control of the party since they will retain a dominant portion of MPs. The far left is not going to reshape the party in their own image.

IanB2

Philip_Thompson said:

The bigger issue to be decided by the lack of far left keyboard warrior success in more day to day meetings is the failure to reshape the makeup of MPs. In every by-election the nominee has not been a Corbynista. Talk of "mandatory reselection" now seems to be dead in the water but even if it wasn't the so-called moderates would win their reselection battles anyway.

Which means it is a matter of when, not if, that the moderate left regains control of the party since they will retain a dominant portion of MPs. The far left is not going to reshape the party in their own image.

After which the question quickly becomes whether the so-called 'moderate' MPs have any better clue as to what might be the solution to Labour's ongoing existential crisis than does the current more left-wing leadership?

AlastairMeeks

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

Philip_Thompson

QTWAIN @IanB2

Philip_Thompson

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

Why not?

What's the worst that is realistically going to happen? They might lose a few marginals but it isn't as if Brown or Miliband won that many marginals for them to lose.

Without a credible insurgent SNP style challenger in England and Wales most of the PLP are in safe "donkey with a red rosette" territory so does it matter if the party's led by an ass?

Beverley_C

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

Pulpstar

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

The thing is that 2018 comes around and then the "Its too close to a GE to change leader" arguments become ever louder.

I think he'll stay till the GE still, although that is my book talking a bit it also is based on the not too wishful thinking that McDonnell, Abbott, Lewis and all the other various pygmies will not be able to work out Corbyn's succession plan between them due to them all wanting it to be "Their plan".

Alanbrooke

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

hmm

from experience I'd say womens harshest judges on appearance are other women.

Beverley_C

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

The thing is that 2018 comes around and then the "Its too close to a GE to change leader" arguments become ever louder.

I think it is almost too late now. Given the length of time it takes for Labour to get a leader in place then get a new team picked, sort out the policies and try to get the public to be able to recognise more than 1 out of 10 faces.

Is three years enough?

HYUFD

Unless and until a membership poll comes out showing Corbyn is beatable given he was re elected by a landslide by the Labour membership just 5 months ago he is staying unless he stands down of his own accord which he won't do unless he knows a fellow Corbynista will succeed him

Charles

Beverley_C said:

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

The thing is that 2018 comes around and then the "Its too close to a GE to change leader" arguments become ever louder.

I think it is almost too late now. Given the length of time it takes for Labour to get a leader in place then get a new team picked, sort out the policies and try to get the public to be able to recognise more than 1 out of 10 faces.

Is three years enough?

How long does it take to sort out "not the Tories" as a policy position?

isam

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

I reckon a few Labour leaders of the past 35 years will dispute that!

Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn have all been pilloried for their appearance. As the subject is a potential Labour leader its fair enough, I think it would be sexist to treat a woman differently and I want to be seen signalling that virtue

What you seem to be asking for is affirmative action

The_Taxman

Beverley_C said:

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

The thing is that 2018 comes around and then the "Its too close to a GE to change leader" arguments become ever louder.

I think it is almost too late now. Given the length of time it takes for Labour to get a leader in place then get a new team picked, sort out the policies and try to get the public to be able to recognise more than 1 out of 10 faces.

Is three years enough?

Any moderate or centrist candidate will do better in a GE than Corbyn. Lets remember the Tories are led by a charisma free void namely Theresa May. Maybe Labour won't win but they could do markedly better under just about anyone but Corbyn.

The next election could well be fought in an economic recession, the clock is ticking on that one as economic cycles do not last for ever and Brexit might have negative effects on the economy that amplify any natural pause in growth and pile further pressure on the government.

peter_from_putney

As a matter of interest SO, since you are a close observer of all things Labour and the direction in which the party should be heading, who would be your top two picks to be the next leader or next pick (i.e. singular), should you believe there is one outstanding candidate who would attract the most support?

peter_from_putney

Surprisingly, there are no betting markets on the year in which Corbyn ceases to be Labour leader. Come on Shadsy, do your stuff!

Essexit

It would be a tremendous shame to miss out on seeing Jeremy Corbyn fighting a General Election campaign.

Alanbrooke

Charles said:

Beverley_C said:

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

The thing is that 2018 comes around and then the "Its too close to a GE to change leader" arguments become ever louder.

I think it is almost too late now. Given the length of time it takes for Labour to get a leader in place then get a new team picked, sort out the policies and try to get the public to be able to recognise more than 1 out of 10 faces.

Is three years enough?

How long does it take to sort out "not the Tories" as a policy position?

be fair Charles

it took Cameron five years

Beverley_C

Alanbrooke said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

hmm

from experience I'd say womens harshest judges on appearance are other women.

True enough but the emphasis is different. Generalising is always risky but for the sake of brevity.... for a lot of men a women's appearance is the primary (only?) attribute they judge her by.

I could fill this thread up with stories of women I know, some of whom run businesses or who are senior in business. The problem exists, be in no doubt about it.

isam

peter_from_putney said:

Surprisingly, there are no betting markets on the year in which Corbyn ceases to be Labour leader. Come on Shadsy, do your stuff!

Paddy Power had one and it was an 84% book!!

IanB2

peter_from_putney said:

Surprisingly, there are no betting markets on the year in which Corbyn ceases to be Labour leader. Come on Shadsy, do your stuff!

Betfair has a complete market

Ishmael_Z

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

I meant to ask NPXMP or anyone else who has canvassed in Stoke how many doorsteppees havesaid they could not vote Nuttall because he looks such an utter chump in his tweed caps.

BigRich

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

Why not?

What's the worst that is realistically going to happen? They might lose a few marginals but it isn't as if Brown or Miliband won that many marginals for them to lose.

Without a credible insurgent SNP style challenger in England and Wales most of the PLP are in safe "donkey with a red rosette" territory so does it matter if the party's led by an ass?

UK politics being a FPTP system has a tendency towards a two big party's + much smaller others.

This has been slightly tempered with the PR systems for the MEPs and to a lesser extent the Scottish, Welsh and London, elections.

But with the end of MEPs and the introduction of all the extra mayors, we are going to some what revert to being a two party contrary.

In that case it is vital to be one of the big two! and while I think on the balance of probabilities Labour even under JC will be one of the big two in 2020, I don't this its guaranteed, the LibDems or less likely but still possible UKIP, could come out of the 2020 GE as the Official opposition.

Looking at Lab support in opinion poles there support is on a down wood projection to around 17-18% by 2020, and while LD recovery should not be exaggerated, that's not a big target to beet.

we know that between now and 2020, the heralds the Lab Party will face include,

New constituency boundaries - reduce the size of Lab sets, and reducing the incumbency effect in most of the rest.

The Trade union bill - reducing the power of the Union and the size of the political funds to support Labour.

A leader that most MPs do not what to serve with.

The EU issue, where lab voters are split, appear to keen to leave, and upset the reminders, appear to try to stop BREXIT and upset the Leaves.

I'm not saying Labour will defiantly drop to being a minor party, the probability is they will not, but to say it will defiantly not is to ignore what has happed in Scotland.

Beverley_C

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

I reckon a few Labour leaders of the past 35 years will dispute that!

Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn have all been pilloried for their appearance. As the subject is a potential Labour leader its fair enough, I think it would be sexist to treat a woman differently and I want to be seen signalling that virtue

What you seem to be asking for is affirmative action

I am not asking for anything. I am just telling you what I and other women I know experience on a daily basis.

Beverley_C

Charles said:

How long does it take to sort out "not the Tories" as a policy position?

That is not a policy position. That is a desperate hope, or possibly special pleading.

The_Taxman

Alanbrooke said:

Charles said:

Beverley_C said:

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

The thing is that 2018 comes around and then the "Its too close to a GE to change leader" arguments become ever louder.

I think it is almost too late now. Given the length of time it takes for Labour to get a leader in place then get a new team picked, sort out the policies and try to get the public to be able to recognise more than 1 out of 10 faces.

Is three years enough?

How long does it take to sort out "not the Tories" as a policy position?

be fair Charles

it took Cameron five years

Cameron was always a difficult sale due to his upper class background IMO. I was surprised he became leader to be honest when he did. History will not judge his political career positively, he was put up with rather than genuinely supported. He is just a chancer - It would not surprise me if allsorts of things come out of the woodwork that would shock public opinion about him and his circle.

kle4

isam said:

"As TSE observed today, it’s becoming a question of when he goes, not whether"

Was there a chance he might stay forever then?

The spirit of the left is immortal, and JC is its way, truth and life.

Yes, I've used that one before.

nunu

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

This is right. Although I have to scoff at women like Charlie Theron who complain about sexism but will get naked for a perfume ad.

isam

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

I reckon a few Labour leaders of the past 35 years will dispute that!

Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn have all been pilloried for their appearance. As the subject is a potential Labour leader its fair enough, I think it would be sexist to treat a woman differently and I want to be seen signalling that virtue

What you seem to be asking for is affirmative action

I am not asking for anything. I am just telling you what I and other women I know experience on a daily basis.

Both men and women are judged on their appearance, and there are women and men who use their appearance to further their careers.

But in the field of politics, and specifically Labour leaders, the mild criticism of RLB is nothing to the hammerings that Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn took. It's not even a right vs left thing, I seem to remember there was a poster on here who was fixated with David Camerons hairline, to the point where his avatar was a bald version of the former PM

Essexit

kle4 said:

isam said:

"As TSE observed today, it’s becoming a question of when he goes, not whether"

Was there a chance he might stay forever then?

The spirit of the left is immortal, and JC is its way, truth and life.

Yes, I've used that one before.

There is no doubt a strand of opinion among the Labour membership that would like to make Corbyn Eternal Leader, Kim Il-sung style.

Beverley_C

The_Taxman said:

Any moderate or centrist candidate will do better in a GE than Corbyn. Lets remember the Tories are led by a charisma free void namely Theresa May. Maybe Labour won't win but they could do markedly better under just about anyone but Corbyn.

My personal suspicion is that it will take a leader or two to clear up Corbyn's mess. On the Tory side, Mrs May does not fill me with confidence. I understand that she is in a difficult position with limited room to manoeuvre but I do not feel that she has a grip on her party. Then again, does any Tory PM?

The_Taxman said:

The next election could well be fought in an economic recession, the clock is ticking on that one as economic cycles do not last for ever and Brexit might have negative effects on the economy that amplify any natural pause in growth and pile further pressure on the government.

I fully expect Brexit to be a shambles. I am just hoping that it holds off until 2018 or 2019...

Theuniondivvie

They obviously have different parliamentary 'conventions' in Germany.

https://twitter.com/philipoltermann/status/830802425237925888

SandyRentool

I would like us to go in to the next election with a manifesto to the left of that offered by EdM and lead by someone who looks like a PM in waiting. And I don't care if they were Remain or Leave - that will be history in 2020.

TudorRose

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

I reckon a few Labour leaders of the past 35 years will dispute that!

Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn have all been pilloried for their appearance. As the subject is a potential Labour leader its fair enough, I think it would be sexist to treat a woman differently and I want to be seen signalling that virtue

What you seem to be asking for is affirmative action

I am not asking for anything. I am just telling you what I and other women I know experience on a daily basis.

Both men and women are judged on their appearance, and there are women and men who use their appearance to further their careers.

But in the field of politics, and specifically Labour leaders, the mild criticism of RLB is nothing to the hammerings that Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn took. It's not even a right vs left thing, I seem to remember there was a poster on here who was fixated with David Camerons hairline, to the point where his avatar was a bald version of the former PM

And William Hague's baseball cap...!

Alanbrooke

Beverley_C said:

Alanbrooke said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

hmm

from experience I'd say womens harshest judges on appearance are other women.

True enough but the emphasis is different. Generalising is always risky but for the sake of brevity.... for a lot of men a women's appearance is the primary (only?) attribute they judge her by.

I could fill this thread up with stories of women I know, some of whom run businesses or who are senior in business. The problem exists, be in no doubt about it.

Ha Mrs C a very one sided view :-)

there is nothing blokes dread more than being asked what do they think about what she is planning to wear. Whatever answer you give is the wrong one.

" It makes you look like Angela Merkel " rarely is received in the good humour it was uttered

" not big enough" is not the correct answer to does my bum look big in this

it would look a lot better on her best friend is just suicide

you ladies ask us to walk through a minefield and then condemn us when we blow our feet off

Beverley_C

isam said:

But in the field of politics, and specifically Labour leaders, the mild criticism of RLB is nothing to the hammerings that Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn took. It's not even a right vs left thing, I seem to remember there was a poster on here who was fixated with David Camerons hairline, to the point where his avatar was a bald version of the former PM

The main criticism of Brown was that he was a control freak and of Miliband was that he was gaff-prone. Michael Foot was regarded as detached from reality and the "Donkey Jacket" was regarded as proof of that but the main charge against Foot was that he lacked any clue about the real world. It seems to me that Corbyn is simply being treated as Foot mk.II

Charles

The_Taxman said:

Beverley_C said:

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

The thing is that 2018 comes around and then the "Its too close to a GE to change leader" arguments become ever louder.

I think it is almost too late now. Given the length of time it takes for Labour to get a leader in place then get a new team picked, sort out the policies and try to get the public to be able to recognise more than 1 out of 10 faces.

Is three years enough?

Any moderate or centrist candidate will do better in a GE than Corbyn. Lets remember the Tories are led by a charisma free void namely Theresa May. Maybe Labour won't win but they could do markedly better under just about anyone but Corbyn.

The next election could well be fought in an economic recession, the clock is ticking on that one as economic cycles do not last for ever and Brexit might have negative effects on the economy that amplify any natural pause in growth and pile further pressure on the government.

What will cause a recession?

We are in an artificial economy as it is. Why do you think that Carney wouldn't cut rates further or engage in more QE?

Stark_Dawning

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

I reckon a few Labour leaders of the past 35 years will dispute that!

Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn have all been pilloried for their appearance. As the subject is a potential Labour leader its fair enough, I think it would be sexist to treat a woman differently and I want to be seen signalling that virtue

What you seem to be asking for is affirmative action

I am not asking for anything. I am just telling you what I and other women I know experience on a daily basis.

Both men and women are judged on their appearance, and there are women and men who use their appearance to further their careers.

But in the field of politics, and specifically Labour leaders, the mild criticism of RLB is nothing to the hammerings that Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn took. It's not even a right vs left thing, I seem to remember there was a poster on here who was fixated with David Camerons hairline, to the point where his avatar was a bald version of the former PM

That's a blast from the past. I'd forgotten all about tim's bald Dave avatar. Thanks for reminding me.

madasafish

Beverley_C said:

The_Taxman said:

Any moderate or centrist candidate will do better in a GE than Corbyn. Lets remember the Tories are led by a charisma free void namely Theresa May. Maybe Labour won't win but they could do markedly better under just about anyone but Corbyn.

My personal suspicion is that it will take a leader or two to clear up Corbyn's mess. On the Tory side, Mrs May does not fill me with confidence. I understand that she is in a difficult position with limited room to manoeuvre but I do not feel that she has a grip on her party. Then again, does any Tory PM?

The_Taxman said:

The next election could well be fought in an economic recession, the clock is ticking on that one as economic cycles do not last for ever and Brexit might have negative effects on the economy that amplify any natural pause in growth and pile further pressure on the government.

I fully expect Brexit to be a shambles. I am just hoping that it holds off until 2018 or 2019...

I fully expect Brexit to take at least 5 years to enact so all this talk of a "shambles" shows the authors don't live in the real world as far as economics is concerned.

It takes at least 5 years to negotiate a trade treaty so Brexit will take at least 5 years...

TheScreamingEagles

peter_from_putney said:

Surprisingly, there are no betting markets on the year in which Corbyn ceases to be Labour leader. Come on Shadsy, do your stuff!

You didn't look very hard

https://sports.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/betting/politics/british/next-party-leaders/jeremy-corbyn-specials/220951066/

http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/en-gb/betting/e/8188335/When+Will+Jeremy+Corbyn+Leave+The+Post+Of+Labour+Leader.html

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/uk-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=2602889

https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.120629015

Essexit

SandyRentool said:

I would like us to go in to the next election with a manifesto to the left of that offered by EdM and lead by someone who looks like a PM in waiting. And I don't care if they were Remain or Leave - that will be history in 2020.

The only person I can think of who might fit the bill is Alan Johnson. He might fail on being left-wing enough but is a reasonably well-respected figure (even by a right-winger like me) and has Cabinet experience.

Beverley_C

Alanbrooke said:

Ha Mrs C a very one sided view :-)

there is nothing blokes dread more than being asked what do they think about what she is planning to wear. Whatever answer you give is the wrong one.

" It makes you look like Angela Merkel " rarely is received in the good humour it was uttered

" not big enough" is not the correct answer to does my bum look big in this

it would look a lot better on her best friend is just suicide

you ladies ask us to walk through a minefield and then condemn us when we blow our feet off

I have every sympathy with you. [WARNING: Advice alert] Just tell her she looks fabulous and look like you mean it. Even if you do not

Charles

.

Beverley_C said:

Charles said:

How long does it take to sort out "not the Tories" as a policy position?

That is not a policy position. That is a desperate hope, or possibly special pleading.

Well it's been the basis if Labour campaigns for many a year

Philip_Thompson

nunu said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

This is right. Although I have to scoff at women like Charlie Theron who complain about sexism but will get naked for a perfume ad.

I don't unless they criticise others getting naked as being sexist then there is no hypocrisy.

I view sexism to be something done TO someone who was unwilling. If Theron (or David Beckham as a male alternative) is willing to get naked for money then that is their choice and free will.

That doesn't justify or excuse unwarranted abuse.

The problem is people being to quick to label anything they dislike an ism and this watering down its meaning. I don't like Page 3, I think it is tacky and puerile. But as long as the women there are willing participants I would not call it sexism.

felix

Beverley_C said:

Alanbrooke said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

hmm

from experience I'd say womens harshest judges on appearance are other women.

True enough but the emphasis is different. Generalising is always risky but for the sake of brevity.... for a lot of men a women's appearance is the primary (only?) attribute they judge her by.

I could fill this thread up with stories of women I know, some of whom run businesses or who are senior in business. The problem exists, be in no doubt about it.

Lol - anecdote rules ok? When you're in a hole best to stop digging.

Beverley_C

Anyway, as an independent, powerful, business-running woman, I have a Sunday dinner to sort out including a chocolate madeira pudding with creme anglaise...

SandyRentool

Essexit said:

SandyRentool said:

I would like us to go in to the next election with a manifesto to the left of that offered by EdM and lead by someone who looks like a PM in waiting. And I don't care if they were Remain or Leave - that will be history in 2020.

The only person I can think of who might fit the bill is Alan Johnson. He might fail on being left-wing enough but is a reasonably well-respected figure (even by a right-winger like me) and has Cabinet experience.

If Alan Johnson is the answer I must be asking the wrong question!

FrancisUrquhart

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

I reckon a few Labour leaders of the past 35 years will dispute that!

Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn have all been pilloried for their appearance. As the subject is a potential Labour leader its fair enough, I think it would be sexist to treat a woman differently and I want to be seen signalling that virtue

What you seem to be asking for is affirmative action

I am not asking for anything. I am just telling you what I and other women I know experience on a daily basis.

Both men and women are judged on their appearance, and there are women and men who use their appearance to further their careers.

But in the field of politics, and specifically Labour leaders, the mild criticism of RLB is nothing to the hammerings that Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn took. It's not even a right vs left thing, I seem to remember there was a poster on here who was fixated with David Camerons hairline, to the point where his avatar was a bald version of the former PM

The photos of a rotund Cameron coming out of the water was splashed across most of front pages of the newspapers with unflattering comments. I seem to remember the photographer earned a pretty penny out of them.

Beverley_C

felix said:

Lol - anecdote rules ok? When you're in a hole best to stop digging.

Pay attention 007. I said I could supply the anecdotes ....

SandyRentool

Beverley_C said:

Anyway, as an independent, powerful, business-running woman, I have a Sunday dinner to sort out including a chocolate madeira pudding with creme anglaise...

...and don't forget to clean behind the fridge! ☺

JackW

Theuniondivvie said:

They obviously have different parliamentary 'conventions' in Germany.

https://twitter.com/philipoltermann/status/830802425237925888

Shockng indeed. What's Merkel doing dressed in LibDem yellow ?!?!

FrancisUrquhart

SandyRentool said:

Beverley_C said:

Anyway, as an independent, powerful, business-running woman, I have a Sunday dinner to sort out including a chocolate madeira pudding with creme anglaise...

...and don't forget to clean behind the fridge! ☺

Wonder if Nige's new roomy is busy doing that this weekend?

View_From_Cumbria

On Topic: Jeremy Corbyn has recognition. If his replacement were called Angela whatsername or Owen who was that even if such a selection were possible they would have problems getting known.

Off Topic. Without looking it up name as many candidates who are standing in the two forthcoming by-elections as you can.

Just saying ...

Alanbrooke

Beverley_C said:

Anyway, as an independent, powerful, business-running woman, I have a Sunday dinner to sort out including a chocolate madeira pudding with creme anglaise...

just served mine boeuf bourgignon

two ladies with an attack of the munchies as eldest daughter was out on her hen night last night

wedding in April, so every day i get asked my opinion on something only to be told it's the wrong one

Barnesian

SandyRentool said:

I would like us to go in to the next election with a manifesto to the left of that offered by EdM and lead by someone who looks like a PM in waiting. And I don't care if they were Remain or Leave - that will be history in 2020.

That would be Starmer.

HurstLlama

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

I reckon a few Labour leaders of the past 35 years will dispute that!

Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn have all been pilloried for their appearance. As the subject is a potential Labour leader its fair enough, I think it would be sexist to treat a woman differently and I want to be seen signalling that virtue

What you seem to be asking for is affirmative action

I am not asking for anything. I am just telling you what I and other women I know experience on a daily basis.

Both men and women are judged on their appearance, and there are women and men who use their appearance to further their careers.

But in the field of politics, and specifically Labour leaders, the mild criticism of RLB is nothing to the hammerings that Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn took. It's not even a right vs left thing, I seem to remember there was a poster on here who was fixated with David Camerons hairline, to the point where his avatar was a bald version of the former PM

Appearance is very important, for men and women, in politics and out of it. How a person chooses to dress says a lot about them as a person. A person on the receiving end, be it an interviewer in job recruitment, or a voter watching a politician on television (which is probably the same thing but at a longer distance) is entitled to take that information into account.

Mrs. C's point seems to be that for many ladies appearance has a much greater importance than for male applicants. In my experience that is not true, though I would concede that ladies, on the whole, take more care about their appearance on formal occasions (e.g. interviews).

For the very little it's worth, the only politician whose dress I have complained about was Gordon Brown. He usually looked like a sack of shit tied in the middle, he couldn't tie his tie and his suits always seemed to have been bought for someone else who was much smaller than he was. Someone on here once posted that Brown's tailor was Gieves and Hawkes, a fact that as far as I know that firm never confirmed for obvious reasons.

peter_from_putney

IanB2 said:

peter_from_putney said:

Surprisingly, there are no betting markets on the year in which Corbyn ceases to be Labour leader. Come on Shadsy, do your stuff!

Betfair has a complete market

Thanks for that - I was relying on Oddschecker, not always a good idea
Based on SO's expectation on Corbyn quitting the Labour leadership after the locals next year, Betfair's backing odds are 18.0 for Apr - June 18 and 17.5 for July - Sept 18 (i.e. taking in the Party conference). Hence one can cover the 6 months Apr - Sept 18 to achieve combined decimal odds of 8.87. That looks like fair value to me but DYOR.

Barnesian

Charles said:

The_Taxman said:

Beverley_C said:

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

The thing is that 2018 comes around and then the "Its too close to a GE to change leader" arguments become ever louder.

I think it is almost too late now. Given the length of time it takes for Labour to get a leader in place then get a new team picked, sort out the policies and try to get the public to be able to recognise more than 1 out of 10 faces.

Is three years enough?

Any moderate or centrist candidate will do better in a GE than Corbyn. Lets remember the Tories are led by a charisma free void namely Theresa May. Maybe Labour won't win but they could do markedly better under just about anyone but Corbyn.

The next election could well be fought in an economic recession, the clock is ticking on that one as economic cycles do not last for ever and Brexit might have negative effects on the economy that amplify any natural pause in growth and pile further pressure on the government.

What will cause a recession?

We are in an artificial economy as it is. Why do you think that Carney wouldn't cut rates further or engage in more QE?

Those two levers are connected to asset values not the real economy.

No more boom and bust? That rings a bell.

The_Taxman

Charles said:

The_Taxman said:

Beverley_C said:

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

The Labour Party can't leave a political corpse in charge for years. They don't have the luxury of that much time.

The thing is that 2018 comes around and then the "Its too close to a GE to change leader" arguments become ever louder.

I think it is almost too late now. Given the length of time it takes for Labour to get a leader in place then get a new team picked, sort out the policies and try to get the public to be able to recognise more than 1 out of 10 faces.

Is three years enough?

Any moderate or centrist candidate will do better in a GE than Corbyn. Lets remember the Tories are led by a charisma free void namely Theresa May. Maybe Labour won't win but they could do markedly better under just about anyone but Corbyn.

The next election could well be fought in an economic recession, the clock is ticking on that one as economic cycles do not last for ever and Brexit might have negative effects on the economy that amplify any natural pause in growth and pile further pressure on the government.

What will cause a recession?

We are in an artificial economy as it is. Why do you think that Carney wouldn't cut rates further or engage in more QE?

What will cause a recession?
The natural trade cycle.

Carney or his successor will have difficulty cutting interest rates more due to their present low rates. Sure QE could be induced but if a naturally occurring recession comes along it will be like trying to urinate on a forest fire and as ineffective. Maybe the depreciation in sterling will sufficiently stimulate the economy to keep a recession at bay until 2020 but as I say 10 years of growth, all be it fairly slow growth in the historical context usually points toward recession.

Ishmael_Z

HurstLlama said:

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

I reckon a few Labour leaders of the past 35 years will dispute that!

Foot, Brown, Miliband and Corbyn have all been pilloried for their appearance. As the subject is a potential Labour leader its fair enough, I think it would be sexist to treat a woman differently and I want to be seen signalling that virtue

What you seem to be asking for is affirmative action

I am not asking for anything. I am just telling you what I and other women I know experience on a daily basis.

Both men and women are judged on their appearance, and there are women and men who use their appearance to further their careers.

But former PM

Appearance is very important, for men and women, in politics and out of it. How a person chooses to dress says a lot about them as a person. A person on the receiving end, be it an interviewer in job recruitment, or a voter watching a politician on television (which is probably the same thing but at a longer distance) is entitled to take that information into account.

Mrs. C's point seems to be that for many ladies appearance has a much greater importance than for male applicants. In my experience that is not true, though I would concede that ladies, on the whole, take more care about their appearance on formal occasions (e.g. interviews).

For the very little it's worth, the only politician whose dress I have complained about was Gordon Brown. He usually looked like a sack of shit tied in the middle, he couldn't tie his tie and his suits always seemed to have been bought for someone else who was much smaller than he was. Someone on here once posted that Brown's tailor was Gieves and Hawkes, a fact that as far as I know that firm never confirmed for obvious reasons.

Gieves and Hawkes stopped being a proper tailor generations back - when they merged, actually. Their main bag is overpriced off the peg stuff. I find it very credible that they dressed Brown.

Philip_Thompson

View_From_Cumbria said:

On Topic: Jeremy Corbyn has recognition. If his replacement were called Angela whatsername or Owen who was that even if such a selection were possible they would have problems getting known.

Off Topic. Without looking it up name as many candidates who are standing in the two forthcoming by-elections as you can.

Just saying ...

Corbyn has name recognition because he is Leader of the Opposition. Until then he'd spent decades in Parliament and outside political anorak circles (and often within them) name him and he'd be "Jeremy Who?"

If Owen whatshisname had won the leadership election then by now he'd have recognition. It comes with the job not with talent.

Pulpstar

On topic:

Watto agrees - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38948978

FrancisUrquhart

Police open fraud inquiry into 'mismanagement' at evangelical church

Rufus was a leading member of the KICC whose “founder, visionary and senior pastor” is Matthew Ashimolowo, a Nigerian evangelist who preaches a “health and wealth” gospel to a congregation of thousands at his “Prayer Palace” in Kent. The largely African and Caribbean churchgoers are urged to give regular tithes and the church collected £5.8m from them in 2015, according to the latest accounts.

In 2009 and 2010 the trustees agreed to give Rufus £5m to invest after he promised them returns of 55% a year at a time when interest rates were less than 1%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/kicc-kingsway-christian-centre-fraud-inquiry-richard-rufus

nunu

Philip_Thompson said:

nunu said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

This is right. Although I have to scoff at women like Charlie Theron who complain about sexism but will get naked for a perfume ad.

I don't unless they criticise others getting naked as being sexist then there is no hypocrisy.

I view sexism to be something done TO someone who was unwilling. If Theron (or David Beckham as a male alternative) is willing to get naked for money then that is their choice and free will.

That doesn't justify or excuse unwarranted abuse.

The problem is people being to quick to label anything they dislike an ism and this watering down its meaning. I don't like Page 3, I think it is tacky and puerile. But as long as the women there are willing participants I would not call it sexism.

It's not OK to abuse someone if they choose to get naked. But many women complain (including Theron) they are judged on their sexuality and looks whilst at the same time using those things to get ahead and earn money.

Philip_Thompson

nunu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

nunu said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

This is right. Although I have to scoff at women like Charlie Theron who complain about sexism but will get naked for a perfume ad.

I don't unless they criticise others getting naked as being sexist then there is no hypocrisy.

I view sexism to be something done TO someone who was unwilling. If Theron (or David Beckham as a male alternative) is willing to get naked for money then that is their choice and free will.

That doesn't justify or excuse unwarranted abuse.

The problem is people being to quick to label anything they dislike an ism and this watering down its meaning. I don't like Page 3, I think it is tacky and puerile. But as long as the women there are willing participants I would not call it sexism.

It's not OK to abuse someone if they choose to get naked. But many women complain (including Theron) they are judged on their sexuality and looks whilst at the same time using those things to get ahead and earn money.

Which isn't hypocritical. One is being controlled, the other is not.

It's the difference between telling a woman her place is in the kitchen - and a woman choosing to cook.

CarlottaVance

Alanbrooke said:

Beverley_C said:

Alanbrooke said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

hmm

from experience I'd say womens harshest judges on appearance are other women.

True enough but the emphasis is different. Generalising is always risky but for the sake of brevity.... for a lot of men a women's appearance is the primary (only?) attribute they judge her by.

I could fill this thread up with stories of women I know, some of whom run businesses or who are senior in business. The problem exists, be in no doubt about it.

Ha Mrs C a very one sided view :-)

there is nothing blokes dread more than being asked what do they think about what she is planning to wear. Whatever answer you give is the wrong one.

" It makes you look like Angela Merkel " rarely is received in the good humour it was uttered

" not big enough" is not the correct answer to does my bum look big in this

it would look a lot better on her best friend is just suicide

you ladies ask us to walk through a minefield and then condemn us when we blow our feet off

"I've always liked that one"

"Hasn't it worn well" and

"Clever of you to find all that material " ....also not recommended

Ishmael_Z

View_From_Cumbria said:

On Topic: Jeremy Corbyn has recognition. If his replacement were called Angela whatsername or Owen who was that even if such a selection were possible they would have problems getting known.

Off Topic. Without looking it up name as many candidates who are standing in the two forthcoming by-elections as you can.

Just saying ...

I agree. Without name recognition there is no way Tim Fallon would now be leading the Lib Dems.

welshowl

JackW said:

Theuniondivvie said:

They obviously have different parliamentary 'conventions' in Germany.

https://twitter.com/philipoltermann/status/830802425237925888

Shockng indeed. What's Merkel doing dressed in LibDem yellow ?!?!

And what's the German football team manager doing in the picture too? Bloke with dark brown hair on the left), I think.

Morris_Dancer

Good evening, everyone.

Shame Scotland couldn't quite beat France. Intriguing game to watch, though.

AlsoIndigo

HurstLlama said:

For the very little it's worth, the only politician whose dress I have complained about was Gordon Brown. He usually looked like a sack of shit tied in the middle, he couldn't tie his tie and his suits always seemed to have been bought for someone else who was much smaller than he was. Someone on here once posted that Brown's tailor was Gieves and Hawkes, a fact that as far as I know that firm never confirmed for obvious reasons.

But he was a dab hand with the makeup.

Pulpstar

FrancisUrquhart said:

Police open fraud inquiry into 'mismanagement' at evangelical church

Rufus was a leading member of the KICC whose “founder, visionary and senior pastor” is Matthew Ashimolowo, a Nigerian evangelist who preaches a “health and wealth” gospel to a congregation of thousands at his “Prayer Palace” in Kent. The largely African and Caribbean churchgoers are urged to give regular tithes and the church collected £5.8m from them in 2015, according to the latest accounts.

In 2009 and 2010 the trustees agreed to give Rufus £5m to invest after he promised them returns of 55% a year at a time when interest rates were less than 1%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/kicc-kingsway-christian-centre-fraud-inquiry-richard-rufus

Tricky to get 55% in a year on that size, not sure Ladbrokes would lay that for Labour in Stoke. Property bridging loans skipping the middleman might be able to get 25 - 30%, which would work for the size. Of course capital is most definitely at risk when 55% is given as a return.

I rather expect the "investments" were on wine, women and song rather than anything tangible.

Jobabob

Rebecca Long-Bailey appeared to be attacked as a brassy barmaid type because she chooses smart feminine styles (and is very well presented). It would be unusual to see a male politician attacked for being too smart. As it is, I think RBL is a lousy leadership candidate as she has too little experience - I just found the dismissing of her as a barmaid type "who should be pulling pints in the Rovers' Return" a bit cringeworthy.

Danny565

Have to say, having voted for him last year, I think it's time for Corbyn to go. The experiment has been given long enough, and it's not working.

Restharrow

JackW said:

Theuniondivvie said:

They obviously have different parliamentary 'conventions' in Germany.

https://twitter.com/philipoltermann/status/830802425237925888

Shockng indeed. What's Merkel doing dressed in LibDem yellow ?!?!

You beat me to it, Mr W. I was minded to enquire "who's that clown in the yellow jacket?"

TudorRose

Ishmael_Z said:

View_From_Cumbria said:

On Topic: Jeremy Corbyn has recognition. If his replacement were called Angela whatsername or Owen who was that even if such a selection were possible they would have problems getting known.

Off Topic. Without looking it up name as many candidates who are standing in the two forthcoming by-elections as you can.

Just saying ...

I agree. Without name recognition there is no way Tim Fallon would now be leading the Lib Dems.

And there was me thinking he was defence secretary...

Danny565

SandyRentool said:

Essexit said:

SandyRentool said:

I would like us to go in to the next election with a manifesto to the left of that offered by EdM and lead by someone who looks like a PM in waiting. And I don't care if they were Remain or Leave - that will be history in 2020.

The only person I can think of who might fit the bill is Alan Johnson. He might fail on being left-wing enough but is a reasonably well-respected figure (even by a right-winger like me) and has Cabinet experience.

If Alan Johnson is the answer I must be asking the wrong question!

Sadly, all the 3 best "unity" candidates have tarnished themselves in the past 18 months: Harman by indicating the Labour "centrists" had no red-lines whatsoever with her Welfare Bill fiasco, Benn with supporting the Syria air strikes (not an issue for me personally, but an absolute heresy for even the most swingy of Corbynistas) and Johnson with his pathetic performance in the EU campaign.

Philip_Thompson

Jobabob said:

Rebecca Long-Bailey appeared to be attacked as a brassy barmaid type because she chooses smart feminine styles (and is very well presented). It would be unusual to see a male politician attacked for being too smart. As it is, I think RBL is a lousy leadership candidate as she has too little experience - I just found the dismissing of her as a barmaid type "who should be pulling pints in the Rovers' Return" a bit cringeworthy.

I didn't read the whole prior thread so may have missed those comments but the bulk of comments I did see were simply referring to a car crash interview with Andrew Neil - for which many male MPs have had the exact same treatment.

Ishmael_Z

TudorRose said:

Ishmael_Z said:

View_From_Cumbria said:

On Topic: Jeremy Corbyn has recognition. If his replacement were called Angela whatsername or Owen who was that even if such a selection were possible they would have problems getting known.

Off Topic. Without looking it up name as many candidates who are standing in the two forthcoming by-elections as you can.

Just saying ...

I agree. Without name recognition there is no way Tim Fallon would now be leading the Lib Dems.

And there was me thinking he was defence secretary...

and missing the point...

felix

JackW said:

Theuniondivvie said:

They obviously have different parliamentary 'conventions' in Germany.

https://twitter.com/philipoltermann/status/830802425237925888

Shockng indeed. What's Merkel doing dressed in LibDem yellow ?!?!

Who's the man in drag in front of the lady with the orange hair?

Philip_Thompson

Ishmael_Z said:

TudorRose said:

Ishmael_Z said:

View_From_Cumbria said:

On Topic: Jeremy Corbyn has recognition. If his replacement were called Angela whatsername or Owen who was that even if such a selection were possible they would have problems getting known.

Off Topic. Without looking it up name as many candidates who are standing in the two forthcoming by-elections as you can.

Just saying ...

I agree. Without name recognition there is no way Tim Fallon would now be leading the Lib Dems.

And there was me thinking he was defence secretary...

and missing the point...

Considering the fact that Michael Fallon is the Defence Secretary I think he got the point ...

felix

View_From_Cumbria said:

On Topic: Jeremy Corbyn has recognition. If his replacement were called Angela whatsername or Owen who was that even if such a selection were possible they would have problems getting known.

Off Topic. Without looking it up name as many candidates who are standing in the two forthcoming by-elections as you can.

Just saying ...

Recognition is Corbyn's problem - they know him and they don't like him.

Jobabob

Philip_Thompson said:

Jobabob said:

Rebecca Long-Bailey appeared to be attacked as a brassy barmaid type because she chooses smart feminine styles (and is very well presented). It would be unusual to see a male politician attacked for being too smart. As it is, I think RBL is a lousy leadership candidate as she has too little experience - I just found the dismissing of her as a barmaid type "who should be pulling pints in the Rovers' Return" a bit cringeworthy.

I didn't read the whole prior thread so may have missed those comments but the bulk of comments I did see were simply referring to a car crash interview with Andrew Neil - for which many male MPs have had the exact same treatment.

Some were, some weren't.

Jobabob

felix said:

View_From_Cumbria said:

On Topic: Jeremy Corbyn has recognition. If his replacement were called Angela whatsername or Owen who was that even if such a selection were possible they would have problems getting known.

Off Topic. Without looking it up name as many candidates who are standing in the two forthcoming by-elections as you can.

Just saying ...

Recognition is Corbyn's problem - they know him and they don't like him.

That's just it. This idea that somehow Corbyn is better than the alternatives is mad. As is often noted on this forum @Pulpstar 's cat is more electable.

AlsoIndigo

Pie thinks he gets it, but doesn't think the Lib Dems do, or Labour, or the Tories (Must be a closet kipper!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkJs-tK2vak

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Indigo, his very name is 50% of Kipper.

Philip_Thompson

Jobabob said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Jobabob said:

Rebecca Long-Bailey appeared to be attacked as a brassy barmaid type because she chooses smart feminine styles (and is very well presented). It would be unusual to see a male politician attacked for being too smart. As it is, I think RBL is a lousy leadership candidate as she has too little experience - I just found the dismissing of her as a barmaid type "who should be pulling pints in the Rovers' Return" a bit cringeworthy.

I didn't read the whole prior thread so may have missed those comments but the bulk of comments I did see were simply referring to a car crash interview with Andrew Neil - for which many male MPs have had the exact same treatment.

Some were, some weren't.

Some being most or a minority?

AnneJGP

Philip_Thompson said:

nunu said:

Philip_Thompson said:

nunu said:

Beverley_C said:

isam said:

It's ok to call Corbyn scruffy, but not ok to comment on the appearance of Rebecca LB?

I'd like to be seen calling that sexist if I were a virtue signaller

The difference is that women tend to be judged on their appearance above all else. Competence and ability are a distant second or third place. For men, their sartorial choices generally do not impact how their competence is judged.

It is a far from level playing field.

This is right. Although I have to scoff at women like Charlie Theron who complain about sexism but will get naked for a perfume ad.

I don't unless they criticise others getting naked as being sexist then there is no hypocrisy.

I view sexism to be something done TO someone who was unwilling. If Theron (or David Beckham as a male alternative) is willing to get naked for money then that is their choice and free will.

That doesn't justify or excuse unwarranted abuse.

The problem is people being to quick to label anything they dislike an ism and this watering down its meaning. I don't like Page 3, I think it is tacky and puerile. But as long as the women there are willing participants I would not call it sexism.

It's not OK to abuse someone if they choose to get naked. But many women complain (including Theron) they are judged on their sexuality and looks whilst at the same time using those things to get ahead and earn money.

Which isn't hypocritical. One is being controlled, the other is not.

It's the difference between telling a woman her place is in the kitchen - and a woman choosing to cook.

Telling a woman her place is in the kitchen is one thing. The defining question is whether you would care to eat what she cooks.

Good evening, everyone.

Jobabob

Philip_Thompson said:

Jobabob said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Jobabob said:

Rebecca Long-Bailey appeared to be attacked as a brassy barmaid type because she chooses smart feminine styles (and is very well presented). It would be unusual to see a male politician attacked for being too smart. As it is, I think RBL is a lousy leadership candidate as she has too little experience - I just found the dismissing of her as a barmaid type "who should be pulling pints in the Rovers' Return" a bit cringeworthy.

I didn't read the whole prior thread so may have missed those comments but the bulk of comments I did see were simply referring to a car crash interview with Andrew Neil - for which many male MPs have had the exact same treatment.

Some were, some weren't.

Some being most or a minority?

Read the thread yourself if you like and do your own audit!

Restharrow

On topic...

Corbyn and his allies don't consider national government to be important so it would be misleading to expect them to behave as if they did. They are engaged in a long-term cultural struggle to make the harbouring of right-wing ideas physically impossible, aided and abetted by the BBC, social media and "educators" among others.

When Tories start spouting SJW drivel we will realise Corbyn has prevailed, much as Farage won his own battle without a bullet being fired. Labour agitators in the 70s used to talk about "scaling the commanding heights of the economy", but in the 21st century the commanding heights are in people's minds.

rural_voter

Pulpstar said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Police open fraud inquiry into 'mismanagement' at evangelical church

Rufus was a leading member of the KICC whose “founder, visionary and senior pastor” is Matthew Ashimolowo, a Nigerian evangelist who preaches a “health and wealth” gospel to a congregation of thousands at his “Prayer Palace” in Kent. The largely African and Caribbean churchgoers are urged to give regular tithes and the church collected £5.8m from them in 2015, according to the latest accounts.

In 2009 and 2010 the trustees agreed to give Rufus £5m to invest after he promised them returns of 55% a year at a time when interest rates were less than 1%.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/kicc-kingsway-christian-centre-fraud-inquiry-richard-rufus

Tricky to get 55% in a year on that size, not sure Ladbrokes would lay that for Labour in Stoke. Property bridging loans skipping the middleman might be able to get 25 - 30%, which would work for the size. Of course capital is most definitely at risk when 55% is given as a return.

I rather expect the "investments" were on wine, women and song rather than anything tangible.

UK General Elections 2010 and 2015 seemed to be opportunities to get a good, almost certain return in a day or so. We need more GEs!

BTW there's just been a profile of Bercow on R4, giving an account of his move from hard right to liberal left. Is he angling for the LibDem or Labour leadership?

AndyJS

The big question is: would Theresa May prefer to continue to have a majority of 12 in the House of Commons, or would she like to have one between 50 and 100? If it's the latter, she calls an election this year while Corbyn is still in place. But she might prefer to have a small majority.

Sunil_Prasannan

"Joff Wild? I was absolutely livid!"

Sunil_Prasannan

TudorRose said:

Ishmael_Z said:

View_From_Cumbria said:

On Topic: Jeremy Corbyn has recognition. If his replacement were called Angela whatsername or Owen who was that even if such a selection were possible they would have problems getting known.

Off Topic. Without looking it up name as many candidates who are standing in the two forthcoming by-elections as you can.

Just saying ...

I agree. Without name recognition there is no way Tim Fallon would now be leading the Lib Dems.

And there was me thinking he was defence secretary...

No, that's Michael Farron!

Mortimer

Danny565 said:

Have to say, having voted for him last year, I think it's time for Corbyn to go. The experiment has been given long enough, and it's not working.

PBTories hate to say it, but we did suggest as much quite a while ago....

DavidL

There is an argument that the percentage of MPs and MEPs should be increased not diminished. What the fiasco of Corbyn has shown is that a leader who does not have the support of the majority of the PLP is a disaster who cannot create or maintain a shadow cabinet of any stability or substance, incapable of offering ideas or leadership that amounts to a credible alternative to even the weakest government.

Another left wing leadership candidate would not solve any of the problems Corbyn has caused. He is not the problem, he is merely a particularly unpleasant symptom of the problem.