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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Sun re-does its classic front page on the day of the 1992

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    chestnut said:

    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Who runs your local authority?
    Conwy CC - coalition of labour plaid lib dems and independent. Conservatives against



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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380

    Of course in the real world their is a queue to join The EU & a bunch of other Countries trying to join the queue. So far, just one Country is leaving, maybe.

    Yes, it's an odd bit of post-modern self-reference - I doubt if many readers will get it, or for that matter will expect lots of countries to leave the EU.

    EU Governments are generally keen to reach a compromise deal and move on. But the UK Government and its media acolytes may be starting to stir genuine hostility in Continental electorates, which would limit the scope for maneouvre.
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    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Except that at every opportunity the Mail gets they attack any whiff of council tax increase, adding to the household council tax bands, mansion taxes, using parking fines to help local councils, increasing tax subsides to local councils from central government etc etc.
    In Wales we have had yearly increases of 5% +
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Dromedary said:

    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Watch the fly tipping,that is a disgrace.
    What do you expect people to do if rubbish isn't collected with reasonable frequency? Put up with rats?
    Take it to the tip rather than dump it in a country layby?

    Bradford labour council new first step of one bin per house hold has already sent fly tipping up,then next step is fortnighly collections for a city with large families.
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    Dromedary said:

    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Watch the fly tipping,that is a disgrace.
    What do you expect people to do if rubbish isn't collected with reasonable frequency? Put up with rats?
    The Council run recycling plants are very good so there is no excuse for fly tipping
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    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    "Would the last country to leave EU please turn out the lights"

    Surely that should say "leave THE EU", it's The EU not just EU, the headline doesn't make sense.

    The Sun actually does come up with decent punny headlines, that is one of their redeeming features. This isn't one of them. It seems completely arbitrary that they've taken the Neil Kinnock headline. Where's the connection?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,439
    edited January 2017
    Google has acquired a part of Twitter -- the part that isn't about tweets. Twitter's mobile developer platform Fabric will become part of Google, both companies announced Wednesday.

    https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/18/twitter-sells-developer-platform-to-google/
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    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194

    Dromedary said:

    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Watch the fly tipping,that is a disgrace.
    What do you expect people to do if rubbish isn't collected with reasonable frequency? Put up with rats?
    Take it to the tip rather than dump it in a country layby?
    Yes OK, point taken. You are right: there's no excuse for that kind of fly-tipping. But people are right to be angry at being expected to work for free sorting out their rubbish so that big business can get cheaper raw materials. If it was proper recycling we could take things away for free as well as being expected to donate them for free. The atmosphere at some tips is highly officious, complete with checkpoints, document checks, and uniformed tip men working for some French company I forget the name of, ordering people not to throw general assorted rubbish in the "general" skip because this item should go here, that item should go there, etc.

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    There is no doubt that the end of the newspaper as a purveyer of news, any news, is on the near horizon.

    I think that by 2035 the newspaper industry will be dead. There still may be organisations with the name of the Times or telegraph, but the newspapers themselves will be a thing of the past.

    I give books based on paper another 20 years but by 2060 they will be gone except for a very few print runs for special needs.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Dromedary said:

    Dromedary said:

    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Watch the fly tipping,that is a disgrace.
    What do you expect people to do if rubbish isn't collected with reasonable frequency? Put up with rats?
    Take it to the tip rather than dump it in a country layby?
    Yes OK, point taken. You are right: there's no excuse for that kind of fly-tipping. But people are right to be angry at being expected to work for free sorting out their rubbish so that big business can get cheaper raw materials. If it was proper recycling we could take things away for free as well as being expected to donate them for free. The atmosphere at some tips is highly officious, complete with checkpoints, document checks, and uniformed tip men working for some French company I forget the name of, ordering people not to throw general assorted rubbish in the "general" skip because this item should go here, that item should go there, etc.

    In my council all the recyclables go in one bin, collected alternate weeks, with non recyclable the following week. The council does the sorting. Works fine.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,439
    edited January 2017

    Dromedary said:

    Dromedary said:

    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Watch the fly tipping,that is a disgrace.
    What do you expect people to do if rubbish isn't collected with reasonable frequency? Put up with rats?
    Take it to the tip rather than dump it in a country layby?
    Yes OK, point taken. You are right: there's no excuse for that kind of fly-tipping. But people are right to be angry at being expected to work for free sorting out their rubbish so that big business can get cheaper raw materials. If it was proper recycling we could take things away for free as well as being expected to donate them for free. The atmosphere at some tips is highly officious, complete with checkpoints, document checks, and uniformed tip men working for some French company I forget the name of, ordering people not to throw general assorted rubbish in the "general" skip because this item should go here, that item should go there, etc.

    In my council all the recyclables go in one bin, collected alternate weeks, with non recyclable the following week. The council does the sorting. Works fine.
    If only the rest of the country was like that....my parents have 7 different bins. I have a more reasonable 4 different ones.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,207

    "Would the last country to leave EU please turn out the lights"

    Surely that should say "leave THE EU", it's The EU not just EU, the headline doesn't make sense.

    The Sun actually does come up with decent punny headlines, that is one of their redeeming features. This isn't one of them. It seems completely arbitrary that they've taken the Neil Kinnock headline. Where's the connection?

    EU and Kinnock, both losers....
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dromedary said:

    Dromedary said:

    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Watch the fly tipping,that is a disgrace.
    What do you expect people to do if rubbish isn't collected with reasonable frequency? Put up with rats?
    Take it to the tip rather than dump it in a country layby?
    Yes OK, point taken. You are right: there's no excuse for that kind of fly-tipping. But people are right to be angry at being expected to work for free sorting out their rubbish so that big business can get cheaper raw materials. If it was proper recycling we could take things away for free as well as being expected to donate them for free. The atmosphere at some tips is highly officious, complete with checkpoints, document checks, and uniformed tip men working for some French company I forget the name of, ordering people not to throw general assorted rubbish in the "general" skip because this item should go here, that item should go there, etc.

    In my council all the recyclables go in one bin, collected alternate weeks, with non recyclable the following week. The council does the sorting. Works fine.
    If only the rest of the country was like that....my parents have 7 different bins. I have a more reasonable 4 different ones.
    We have an optional third bin for garden waste at £40 per year, which I find handy for lawn clippings, hedge cuttings etc.. I compost much myself too.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MikeK said:

    There is no doubt that the end of the newspaper as a purveyer of news, any news, is on the near horizon.

    I think that by 2035 the newspaper industry will be dead. There still may be organisations with the name of the Times or telegraph, but the newspapers themselves will be a thing of the past.

    I give books based on paper another 20 years but by 2060 they will be gone except for a very few print runs for special needs.

    I don't think anybody gives physical newspapers a long-term future. Books are different. They aren't a throwaway item like papers, and people like them: correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the market share for e-reader book sales as a percentage of the total has already flattened off in the UK.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    MikeK said:

    There is no doubt that the end of the newspaper as a purveyer of news, any news, is on the near horizon.

    I think that by 2035 the newspaper industry will be dead. There still may be organisations with the name of the Times or telegraph, but the newspapers themselves will be a thing of the past.

    I give books based on paper another 20 years but by 2060 they will be gone except for a very few print runs for special needs.

    I don't think anybody gives physical newspapers a long-term future. Books are different. They aren't a throwaway item like papers, and people like them: correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the market share for e-reader book sales as a percentage of the total has already flattened off in the UK.
    Novels and a lot of non-fiction are fine in kindle, but the format is no good for reference books or ones with substantial illustrations.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,439
    edited January 2017

    MikeK said:

    There is no doubt that the end of the newspaper as a purveyer of news, any news, is on the near horizon.

    I think that by 2035 the newspaper industry will be dead. There still may be organisations with the name of the Times or telegraph, but the newspapers themselves will be a thing of the past.

    I give books based on paper another 20 years but by 2060 they will be gone except for a very few print runs for special needs.

    I don't think anybody gives physical newspapers a long-term future. Books are different. They aren't a throwaway item like papers, and people like them: correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the market share for e-reader book sales as a percentage of the total has already flattened off in the UK.
    Like the paperless office, there is little sign (yet) that ebooks are going to take over the way mp3 / streaming music has done for the CD and Netflix is apparently killing DVD sales in a similar way.

    There are a number of problems with e-readers that have yet to have overcome and obviously iPads are far more popular because they can do so many things, but provide a far inferior experience for reading. I have to read a lot for a living and although I screen read pdfs initially, if I really want to take in the info it still gets printed off.
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    Dromedary said:

    Dromedary said:

    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Watch the fly tipping,that is a disgrace.
    What do you expect people to do if rubbish isn't collected with reasonable frequency? Put up with rats?
    Take it to the tip rather than dump it in a country layby?
    Yes OK, point taken. You are right: there's no excuse for that kind of fly-tipping. But people are right to be angry at being expected to work for free sorting out their rubbish so that big business can get cheaper raw materials. If it was proper recycling we could take things away for free as well as being expected to donate them for free. The atmosphere at some tips is highly officious, complete with checkpoints, document checks, and uniformed tip men working for some French company I forget the name of, ordering people not to throw general assorted rubbish in the "general" skip because this item should go here, that item should go there, etc.

    In my council all the recyclables go in one bin, collected alternate weeks, with non recyclable the following week. The council does the sorting. Works fine.
    If only the rest of the country was like that....my parents have 7 different bins. I have a more reasonable 4 different ones.
    We have an optional third bin for garden waste at £40 per year, which I find handy for lawn clippings, hedge cuttings etc.. I compost much myself too.
    Our garden waste of upto 6 bags is collected fortnightly
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017

    "Would the last country to leave EU please turn out the lights"

    Surely that should say "leave THE EU", it's The EU not just EU, the headline doesn't make sense.

    The Sun actually does come up with decent punny headlines, that is one of their redeeming features. This isn't one of them. It seems completely arbitrary that they've taken the Neil Kinnock headline. Where's the connection?

    EU and Kinnock, both losers....
    I dont think so. We do not yet know who are the losers from Brexit.

    Kinnock is the man who made Labour electable again. If he had won in 1992 tbe world would have been a better place.

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    "Would the last country to leave EU please turn out the lights"

    Surely that should say "leave THE EU", it's The EU not just EU, the headline doesn't make sense.

    The Sun actually does come up with decent punny headlines, that is one of their redeeming features. This isn't one of them. It seems completely arbitrary that they've taken the Neil Kinnock headline. Where's the connection?

    EU and Kinnock, both losers....
    I dont think so. We do not yet know who are the losers from Brexit.

    Kinnock is the man who made Labour electable again. If he had won in 1992 tbe world would have been a better place.

    Kinnock lost two GEs on the trot! Double LOSER!
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,708

    "Would the last country to leave EU please turn out the lights"

    Surely that should say "leave THE EU", it's The EU not just EU, the headline doesn't make sense.

    The Sun actually does come up with decent punny headlines, that is one of their redeeming features. This isn't one of them. It seems completely arbitrary that they've taken the Neil Kinnock headline. Where's the connection?

    EU and Kinnock, both losers....
    I dont think so. We do not yet know who are the losers from Brexit.

    Kinnock is the man who made Labour electable again. If he had won in 1992 tbe world would have been a better place.

    Agree, Kinnock helped make Labour electable. But look what he had to go through. Who is present Labour party has the guts, determination and frankly sheer bloody mindlessness to take on the Left today? Most of them are looking for jobs running museums.
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    Does the Sun front page tweet count as fake news?
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,836
    edited January 2017
    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161

    But the UK Government and its media acolytes may be starting to stir genuine hostility in Continental electorates, which would limit the scope for maneouvre.

    So the weird thing about this is that the government seem to be optimizing for short-term domestic politics, even though the main opposition is completely preoccupied with entertaining itself in a gentleman's manner and the next scheduled election isn't until 2020.

    Potential explanations:
    1) They plan to have an election soon
    2) They have no idea what the fuck they're doing
    3) May plans to strike a shitty deal or no-deal, tell everybody she tried then un-Brexit

    I think it's a vague combination of (1) and (2), but it's hard to read.
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    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)

    5...4...3...2...1....Justin tells us it isn't that bad for Labour.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Of course in the real world their is a queue to join The EU & a bunch of other Countries trying to join the queue. So far, just one Country is leaving, maybe.

    Yes, it's an odd bit of post-modern self-reference - I doubt if many readers will get it, or for that matter will expect lots of countries to leave the EU.

    EU Governments are generally keen to reach a compromise deal and move on. But the UK Government and its media acolytes may be starting to stir genuine hostility in Continental electorates, which would limit the scope for maneouvre.
    I would like to believe that this was the case, but the mood music is not good. Firstly Mrs May can't win with her negotiating tactics: having learned from close observation the way that the EU treated Dave "The Doormat" Cameron, she chooses to deploy the carrot and stick approach instead and is immediately lambasted as belligerent - a description that might equally be applied to quite a lot of the noises that have been emanating from the Continent ever since June 24th last year.

    Secondly, having respected the EU's total commitment to the four freedoms and, accordingly, not even bothering to ask for anything like the EEA option, practically the first thing she gets is our old friend Mr Verhofstadt jumping up and down and repeating his usual guff about cherry picking.

    I remain to be convinced that they actually want any kind of deal at all - but que sera sera. At least when this is all over they'll have us well out of the way of their grand plans, and we can do our best to put this entire nightmarish episode behind us. Europe - in geopolitical terms, at least - has never been a source of anything other than sheer bloody misery for this country, and the less we have to do with its internal machinations in future, the better.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    "Would the last country to leave EU please turn out the lights"

    Surely that should say "leave THE EU", it's The EU not just EU, the headline doesn't make sense.

    The Sun actually does come up with decent punny headlines, that is one of their redeeming features. This isn't one of them. It seems completely arbitrary that they've taken the Neil Kinnock headline. Where's the connection?

    EU and Kinnock, both losers....
    I dont think so. We do not yet know who are the losers from Brexit.

    Kinnock is the man who made Labour electable again. If he had won in 1992 tbe world would have been a better place.

    Kinnock lost two GEs on the trot! Double LOSER!
    He gained seats in both elections he fought, bringing the party back from the abyss.

    If he had won, we would not have had New Lablur, Tony Blair would have been an upstart cabinet member, and quite possibly no British part in a Gulf war. It was an opportunity missed.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,836
    edited January 2017
    More YouGov

    Re Mrs May's Brexit plans

    55% said it would be good for Britain, 19% said it would not, 26% did not know.
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    48% of voters agreed that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, 17% thought Mrs May should be prepared to sign a deal even if it fell short of hopes.
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    47% of voters have confidence in the PM's negotiating skills, 38% do not.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,038

    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)

    YouGov Double Diamond Status confirmed!
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    RobD said:

    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)

    YouGov Double Diamond Status confirmed!
    Timshel!
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    20% thought other EU member states would agree to the sort of deal Mrs May was proposing, while 56 % did not, with 25% unsure.
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    Seems the GB public aren't impressed by Corbyn's focus upon Mesut Ozil's wage demands.
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    19% thought that the UK needed the EU more than the EU needed the UK, with 34% saying the reverse. 28% said they needed one another equally
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    40 per cent believed Brexit would leave the UK worse off, with 29 per cent saying it would be better off. There was a clear lead among those believing it would leave the UK with less influence.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161

    48% of voters agreed that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, 17% thought Mrs May should be prepared to sign a deal even if it fell short of hopes.

    83% have absolutely no idea what "no deal" would mean.

    The problem is that the government isn't preparing them for this either, so how do they sell them what they actually end up with?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    There is no doubt that the end of the newspaper as a purveyer of news, any news, is on the near horizon.

    I think that by 2035 the newspaper industry will be dead. There still may be organisations with the name of the Times or telegraph, but the newspapers themselves will be a thing of the past.

    I give books based on paper another 20 years but by 2060 they will be gone except for a very few print runs for special needs.

    I don't think anybody gives physical newspapers a long-term future. Books are different. They aren't a throwaway item like papers, and people like them: correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the market share for e-reader book sales as a percentage of the total has already flattened off in the UK.
    Like the paperless office, there is little sign (yet) that ebooks are going to take over the way mp3 / streaming music has done for the CD and Netflix is apparently killing DVD sales in a similar way.

    There are a number of problems with e-readers that have yet to have overcome and obviously iPads are far more popular because they can do so many things, but provide a far inferior experience for reading. I have to read a lot for a living and although I screen read pdfs initially, if I really want to take in the info it still gets printed off.
    That is true - what you wrote about books - but new types of iPad like reading machines will be developed. You may be able to read anything through specially adapted glasses.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,055
    I'm wondering if the Tories might just pull it off in Copeland. Gov'ts don't normally win by-elections, but gov'ts aren't normally 17 points ahead at this stage either.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    For that weird section of the population that have had too much Brexit but not enough analysis of the US Presidential Election, here is a great piece, as usual, from Sean Trende, looking at the evolution of the Dem vote in the US Northeast. His observations on Maine and PA are particularly eye-opening for their implications for future Presidential, gubernatorial, senate and House elections:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2017/01/18/how_trump_won_the_northeast_132827.html
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    Aren't those type of light bulbs banned by an EU Directive?
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    Dromedary said:

    Dromedary said:

    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Watch the fly tipping,that is a disgrace.
    What do you expect people to do if rubbish isn't collected with reasonable frequency? Put up with rats?
    Take it to the tip rather than dump it in a country layby?
    Yes OK, point taken. You are right: there's no excuse for that kind of fly-tipping. But people are right to be angry at being expected to work for free sorting out their rubbish so that big business can get cheaper raw materials.
    No-one has to buy so much junk. It wasn't that long ago that ashcans and dustbins contained... ash and dust.

    If you must buy so much junk, the least you can do is wash it and sort it a little so that some poor shmucks don't have to spenf 8 hours a day going through it. Ugh.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,439
    edited January 2017
    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    There is no doubt that the end of the newspaper as a purveyer of news, any news, is on the near horizon.

    I think that by 2035 the newspaper industry will be dead. There still may be organisations with the name of the Times or telegraph, but the newspapers themselves will be a thing of the past.

    I give books based on paper another 20 years but by 2060 they will be gone except for a very few print runs for special needs.

    I don't think anybody gives physical newspapers a long-term future. Books are different. They aren't a throwaway item like papers, and people like them: correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the market share for e-reader book sales as a percentage of the total has already flattened off in the UK.
    Like the paperless office, there is little sign (yet) that ebooks are going to take over the way mp3 / streaming music has done for the CD and Netflix is apparently killing DVD sales in a similar way.

    There are a number of problems with e-readers that have yet to have overcome and obviously iPads are far more popular because they can do so many things, but provide a far inferior experience for reading. I have to read a lot for a living and although I screen read pdfs initially, if I really want to take in the info it still gets printed off.
    That is true - what you wrote about books - but new types of iPad like reading machines will be developed. You may be able to read anything through specially adapted glasses.
    I am not saying never, just saying there is a way to go. There are also issues above and beyond just the screen e.g. interacting with a book, marking your page, quickly flicking from one page to another, illustrations / diagrams, etc etc etc.

    MR (mixed reality) could be one solution to this, but this is still an open research problem, let alone the resolution required for reading books.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)

    5...4...3...2...1....Justin tells us it isn't that bad for Labour.
    In 1952 Newcastle council by-election.....
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,708

    Aren't those type of light bulbs banned by an EU Directive?

    :lol:
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    matt said:

    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)

    5...4...3...2...1....Justin tells us it isn't that bad for Labour.
    In 1952 Newcastle council by-election.....
    Oh no no no, that is far too big an event, I think you mean the famous parish council election in Jarrow in 1889.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    48% of voters agreed that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, 17% thought Mrs May should be prepared to sign a deal even if it fell short of hopes.

    83% have absolutely no idea what "no deal" would mean.

    The problem is that the government isn't preparing them for this either, so how do they sell them what they actually end up with?
    The gist of @TheScreamingEagles handy reportage of this poll on Twitter seems to be as follows:

    1. Public like plan.
    2. Public don't think EU will give PM what she wants.
    3. More people think UK will be worse off than better off due to Brexit.

    And therefore...

    4. The Tories' polling numbers have gone up, Labour's have gone down, and the Lib Dems are becalmed.

    Confused? I'm not. Most of the Leavers are prepared to put up with a bit of hardship to be rid of the EU, and virtually all of the Leavers and a lot of the Remainers as well are going to blame the EU for its intransigence of May doesn't get a half-decent deal. This country has a stubborn streak running through it a mile thick, and the EU itself is unloved and widely mistrusted. Mrs May can take whatever she gets to Parliament in 2019, safe in the knowledge that any attempt to block it in the Lords will allow her to force a snap election, which she would almost certainly win by a landslide. QED.
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    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)

    Broken, sleazy Labour and UKIP on the slide :)
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,708
    matt said:

    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)

    5...4...3...2...1....Justin tells us it isn't that bad for Labour.
    In 1952 Newcastle council by-election.....
    Still rubbish. Labour are 5 points above where they really will be in a GE if Corbyn, Abbott, Seamus and co continue to run the show.
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038

    Of course in the real world their is a queue to join The EU & a bunch of other Countries trying to join the queue. So far, just one Country is leaving, maybe.

    Yes, it's an odd bit of post-modern self-reference - I doubt if many readers will get it, or for that matter will expect lots of countries to leave the EU.

    EU Governments are generally keen to reach a compromise deal and move on. But the UK Government and its media acolytes may be starting to stir genuine hostility in Continental electorates, which would limit the scope for maneouvre.
    Hmm. Bridge-burning isn't very helpful if the bridge is the best way to get the shiny Jags and Land Rovers across the river... I wonder if it'll get to the point (if it hasn't already) that the govt spin doctors ask the Sun, Express and Mail to cool it as they're starting to do more harm than good...
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161

    48% of voters agreed that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, 17% thought Mrs May should be prepared to sign a deal even if it fell short of hopes.

    83% have absolutely no idea what "no deal" would mean.

    The problem is that the government isn't preparing them for this either, so how do they sell them what they actually end up with?
    The gist of @TheScreamingEagles handy reportage of this poll on Twitter seems to be as follows:

    1. Public like plan.
    2. Public don't think EU will give PM what she wants.
    3. More people think UK will be worse off than better off due to Brexit.

    And therefore...

    4. The Tories' polling numbers have gone up, Labour's have gone down, and the Lib Dems are becalmed.

    Confused? I'm not. Most of the Leavers are prepared to put up with a bit of hardship to be rid of the EU, and virtually all of the Leavers and a lot of the Remainers as well are going to blame the EU for its intransigence of May doesn't get a half-decent deal. This country has a stubborn streak running through it a mile thick, and the EU itself is unloved and widely mistrusted. Mrs May can take whatever she gets to Parliament in 2019, safe in the knowledge that any attempt to block it in the Lords will allow her to force a snap election, which she would almost certainly win by a landslide. QED.
    I totally get the way the voters are responding now. What I'm not seeing is the government's strategy. I can't believe they're going to merrily just crash out of the EU without a deal however attractive that might sound to the voters now, but if they don't intend to do that they're going to need to prepare the voters for the deal they're going to end up taking.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm wondering if the Tories might just pull it off in Copeland. Gov'ts don't normally win by-elections, but gov'ts aren't normally 17 points ahead at this stage either.

    I think they will, and said this almost as soon as the resignation of the sitting MP was announced. You're quite right that it's highly unusual for the Opposition to ship a seat to the Government in this way, but in this particular case circumstances are so extraordinary that I actually think they'll be disappointed not to do it. And that despite the fact that it has been a Labour seat continuously since 1935!
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited January 2017

    matt said:

    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)

    5...4...3...2...1....Justin tells us it isn't that bad for Labour.
    In 1952 Newcastle council by-election.....
    Still rubbish. Labour are 5 points above where they really will be in a GE if Corbyn, Abbott, Seamus and co continue to run the show.
    I struggle with that but equally I'm not close enough to the (residual) soft Labour supporting part of the electorate to want to risk material amounts of money on what would be for me glorified speculation.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,708
    Pulpstar said:

    I'm wondering if the Tories might just pull it off in Copeland. Gov'ts don't normally win by-elections, but gov'ts aren't normally 17 points ahead at this stage either.

    Punters on BF think so, 4/5 at moment.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118

    40 per cent believed Brexit would leave the UK worse off, with 29 per cent saying it would be better off. There was a clear lead among those believing it would leave the UK with less influence.

    By the way, I'm prepared to back odds on that the Edl twitter accounts you linked to are fake... want to bet?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,708
    One factor in forthcoming Labour by-elections must surely be that moderate MPs (i.e. blairite scum, Alistair Campbell's love children, potential museum directors, capitalist running dogs etc etc) must be half hoping for losses - help to bring on a new leadership election.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,836
    edited January 2017

    One factor in forthcoming Labour by-elections must surely be that moderate MPs (i.e. blairite scum, Alistair Campbell's love children, potential museum directors, capitalist running dogs etc etc) must be half hoping for losses - help to bring on a new leadership election.

    Nope, I got dragged into a twitter discussion a few weeks ago about this.

    If Labour loses Copeland it will be down to the Blairite Red Tory scum not backing Corbyn/trying to topple him.

    Because that's what a Tory MP told Momentum off the record
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,256

    48% of voters agreed that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, 17% thought Mrs May should be prepared to sign a deal even if it fell short of hopes.

    83% have absolutely no idea what "no deal" would mean.

    The problem is that the government isn't preparing them for this either, so how do they sell them what they actually end up with?
    The gist of @TheScreamingEagles handy reportage of this poll on Twitter seems to be as follows:

    1. Public like plan.
    2. Public don't think EU will give PM what she wants.
    3. More people think UK will be worse off than better off due to Brexit.

    And therefore...

    4. The Tories' polling numbers have gone up, Labour's have gone down, and the Lib Dems are becalmed.

    Confused? I'm not. Most of the Leavers are prepared to put up with a bit of hardship to be rid of the EU, and virtually all of the Leavers and a lot of the Remainers as well are going to blame the EU for its intransigence of May doesn't get a half-decent deal. This country has a stubborn streak running through it a mile thick, and the EU itself is unloved and widely mistrusted. Mrs May can take whatever she gets to Parliament in 2019, safe in the knowledge that any attempt to block it in the Lords will allow her to force a snap election, which she would almost certainly win by a landslide. QED.
    It sounds like the plan is not to achieve a goal, but to blame the EU for the plan's failure. I wish I could say I was surprised. We used to be good at winning, but now we concentrate on failing and blaming.

    (sorry it's an old complaint of mine)
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    48% of voters agreed that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, 17% thought Mrs May should be prepared to sign a deal even if it fell short of hopes.

    83% have absolutely no idea what "no deal" would mean.

    The problem is that the government isn't preparing them for this either, so how do they sell them what they actually end up with?
    The gist of @TheScreamingEagles handy reportage of this poll on Twitter seems to be as follows:

    1. Public like plan.
    2. Public don't think EU will give PM what she wants.
    3. More people think UK will be worse off than better off due to Brexit.

    And therefore...

    4. The Tories' polling numbers have gone up, Labour's have gone down, and the Lib Dems are becalmed.

    Confused? I'm not. Most of the Leavers are prepared to put up with a bit of hardship to be rid of the EU, and virtually all of the Leavers and a lot of the Remainers as well are going to blame the EU for its intransigence of May doesn't get a half-decent deal. This country has a stubborn streak running through it a mile thick, and the EU itself is unloved and widely mistrusted. Mrs May can take whatever she gets to Parliament in 2019, safe in the knowledge that any attempt to block it in the Lords will allow her to force a snap election, which she would almost certainly win by a landslide. QED.
    I totally get the way the voters are responding now. What I'm not seeing is the government's strategy. I can't believe they're going to merrily just crash out of the EU without a deal however attractive that might sound to the voters now, but if they don't intend to do that they're going to need to prepare the voters for the deal they're going to end up taking.
    I think they're genuine about wanting to negotiate something, but they are actually preparing the ground in case they come away with little or nothing. Like I said, they can simply blame the EU for being unreasonable.

    The EU's reputation has already been shredded over its handling of multiple crises, and especially its treatment of Greece. It is a bully, and has been seen to act like one. And therefore voters, especially the majority who backed Leave, are far more likely to come down on the side of Theresa May than Jean-Claude Juncker in any spat, don't you think?
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    I can't imagine it is going to get any better than this Mrs M / the Tories.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,708
    Lies. Lies. Capitalist lies. The polls are made up by Bilderberg lackeys etc etc. Non-voters will pour to the ballot boxes once they see the true choices on offer. This is what Trump did. etc etc.
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    I can't imagine it is going to get any better than this Mrs M / the Tories.
    Don't forget swingback, and most crucially this.

    Dave led Ed Miliband by around 10% to 15% on the best PM front, Mrs May leads Corbyn by 33%
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    viewcode said:

    48% of voters agreed that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, 17% thought Mrs May should be prepared to sign a deal even if it fell short of hopes.

    83% have absolutely no idea what "no deal" would mean.

    The problem is that the government isn't preparing them for this either, so how do they sell them what they actually end up with?
    The gist of @TheScreamingEagles handy reportage of this poll on Twitter seems to be as follows:

    1. Public like plan.
    2. Public don't think EU will give PM what she wants.
    3. More people think UK will be worse off than better off due to Brexit.

    And therefore...

    4. The Tories' polling numbers have gone up, Labour's have gone down, and the Lib Dems are becalmed.

    Confused? I'm not. Most of the Leavers are prepared to put up with a bit of hardship to be rid of the EU, and virtually all of the Leavers and a lot of the Remainers as well are going to blame the EU for its intransigence of May doesn't get a half-decent deal. This country has a stubborn streak running through it a mile thick, and the EU itself is unloved and widely mistrusted. Mrs May can take whatever she gets to Parliament in 2019, safe in the knowledge that any attempt to block it in the Lords will allow her to force a snap election, which she would almost certainly win by a landslide. QED.
    It sounds like the plan is not to achieve a goal, but to blame the EU for the plan's failure. I wish I could say I was surprised. We used to be good at winning, but now we concentrate on failing and blaming.

    (sorry it's an old complaint of mine)
    Have just responded to someone else about this, but in brief no, I don't think that Mrs May intentionally wants to fail. I just think she has the ground prepared if she does, that's all. If you had to deal with the EU, wouldn't you?
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,161
    edited January 2017


    I think they're genuine about wanting to negotiate something, but they are actually preparing the ground in case they come away with little or nothing. Like I said, they can simply blame the EU for being unreasonable.

    The EU's reputation has already been shredded over its handling of multiple crises, and especially its treatment of Greece. It is a bully, and has been seen to act like one. And therefore voters, especially the majority who backed Leave, are far more likely to come down on the side of Theresa May than Jean-Claude Juncker in any spat, don't you think?

    The problem isn't selling no-deal, it's selling the UK's concessions. UKIP will be screaming that it's a sell-out. Will the voters take "they bullied me" as an answer? I suppose Tsipras got away with it, but he has highly-developed shrugging skills.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,708

    One factor in forthcoming Labour by-elections must surely be that moderate MPs (i.e. blairite scum, Alistair Campbell's love children, potential museum directors, capitalist running dogs etc etc) must be half hoping for losses - help to bring on a new leadership election.

    Nope, I got dragged into a twitter discussion a few weeks ago about this.

    If Labour loses Copeland it will be down to the Blairite Red Tory scum not backing Corbyn/trying to topple him.

    Because that's what a Tory MP told Momentum off the record
    :lol: Which is why moderates have gone to ground. Spending an astonishing amount of time in their constituencies opening supermarkets or whatever.

    Corbyn has to own the forthcoming apocalypse.
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    The Daily Mail front page headlines our County (Conwy) move to four week bin collections.

    My wife and I manage as we recycle plastic, glass, cardboard and food waste weekly but it is very difficult for many.

    Coming to an authority near you apparently

    Any residual waste not recycled goes to an incinerator to be burned nowadays. The emissions from the incinerator may damage your health if you live within range.

    Government landfill tax has made landfill prohibitively expensive for council household waste and commercial waste alike. The government did this to divert waste from landfill to meet an EU directive which is driven by reducing carbon emissions and global warming. However, the trade off is the emissions of poisonous gases from the incinerators.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    I can't imagine it is going to get any better than this Mrs M / the Tories.
    You may be right, but I doubt if it'll get that much worse, either. Where else are all those Tory voters meant to go? Labour have gone mad, and both Ukip and Anti-Ukip (aka the Lib Dems) are radical choices with relatively narrow appeal, albeit for somewhat different reasons. The former is becalmed in the polls; the latter has at least managed to pick up 2-3 points on the General Election, but now appears to have got stuck again. My suspicion is that they've already hoovered up most of the hard core Continuity Remain vote, mostly represented by crestfallen ex-Labour supporters, but are finding further defections increasingly hard to come by.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,256
    MTimT said:

    For that weird section of the population that have had too much Brexit but not enough analysis of the US Presidential Election, here is a great piece, as usual, from Sean Trende, looking at the evolution of the Dem vote in the US Northeast. His observations on Maine and PA are particularly eye-opening for their implications for future Presidential, gubernatorial, senate and House elections:

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2017/01/18/how_trump_won_the_northeast_132827.html

    Interesting read, thank you
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    The Financial Times says the UK's oustanding liabilties with the EU for future pensions and other future commitments is of the order of £50bn.

    If the EU didn't offer a free trade arrangement and we revert to WTO rules then I don't see us paying anything towards the liabilities. Puts the UK in a strong negotiating position.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905


    I think they're genuine about wanting to negotiate something, but they are actually preparing the ground in case they come away with little or nothing. Like I said, they can simply blame the EU for being unreasonable.

    The EU's reputation has already been shredded over its handling of multiple crises, and especially its treatment of Greece. It is a bully, and has been seen to act like one. And therefore voters, especially the majority who backed Leave, are far more likely to come down on the side of Theresa May than Jean-Claude Juncker in any spat, don't you think?

    The problem isn't selling no-deal, it's selling the UK's concessions. UKIP will be screaming that it's a sell-out. Will the voters take "they bullied me" as an answer? I suppose Tsipras got away with it, but he has highly-developed shrugging skills.
    If the Prime Minister thinks she can sell the deal, she will sell it. If she can't, she'll walk away. I would think that the difference between a saleable and unsaleable deal would be the balance between what the EU is prepared to offer, and what the UK has to give in return - that is, a minimal deal would still be worth bringing back if the burdens that it imposes on us are not too onerous. She can sell it as being worth having, whilst still intimating that its limitations are down to the reluctance of the EU negotiators to agree something more comprehensive.

    Ukip will scream at almost anything, but so long as the Prime Minister doesn't completely cave in I'm reasonably confident that they will remain a sideshow.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    The Financial Times says the UK's oustanding liabilties with the EU for future pensions and other future commitments is of the order of £50bn.

    If the EU didn't offer a free trade arrangement and we revert to WTO rules then I don't see us paying anything towards the liabilities. Puts the UK in a strong negotiating position.

    We'll see. The UK is bound to be on the hook for some half-finished projects and, realistically, we'll have to cough up for those.

    Pension liabilities are much more controversial. These, presumably, should be fully funded by contributions over the employees' careers? If the European Commission hasn't been bothering to top up its pension funds properly then that, presumably, is their lookout? But anyway, I'm sure all this sort of thing will come out in the wash.
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    The Financial Times says the UK's oustanding liabilties with the EU for future pensions and other future commitments is of the order of £50bn.

    If the EU didn't offer a free trade arrangement and we revert to WTO rules then I don't see us paying anything towards the liabilities. Puts the UK in a strong negotiating position.

    We'll see. The UK is bound to be on the hook for some half-finished projects and, realistically, we'll have to cough up for those.

    Pension liabilities are much more controversial. These, presumably, should be fully funded by contributions over the employees' careers? If the European Commission hasn't been bothering to top up its pension funds properly then that, presumably, is their lookout? But anyway, I'm sure all this sort of thing will come out in the wash.
    I think the EU pension scheme, like most government pension schemes, is unfunded. Pay as you go.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 19,256

    viewcode said:

    48% of voters agreed that “no deal is better than a bad deal”, 17% thought Mrs May should be prepared to sign a deal even if it fell short of hopes.

    83% have absolutely no idea what "no deal" would mean.

    The problem is that the government isn't preparing them for this either, so how do they sell them what they actually end up with?
    The gist of @TheScreamingEagles handy reportage of this poll on Twitter seems to be as follows:

    1. Public like plan.
    2. Public don't think EU will give PM what she wants.
    3. More people think UK will be worse off than better off due to Brexit.

    And therefore...

    4. The Tories' polling numbers have gone up, Labour's have gone down, and the Lib Dems are becalmed.

    Confused? I'm not. Most of the Leavers are prepared to put up with a bit of hardship to be rid of the EU, and virtually all of the Leavers and a lot of the Remainers as well are going to blame the EU for its intransigence of May doesn't get a half-decent deal. This country has a stubborn streak running through it a mile thick, and the EU itself is unloved and widely mistrusted. Mrs May can take whatever she gets to Parliament in 2019, safe in the knowledge that any attempt to block it in the Lords will allow her to force a snap election, which she would almost certainly win by a landslide. QED.
    It sounds like the plan is not to achieve a goal, but to blame the EU for the plan's failure. I wish I could say I was surprised. We used to be good at winning, but now we concentrate on failing and blaming.

    (sorry it's an old complaint of mine)
    Have just responded to someone else about this, but in brief no, I don't think that Mrs May intentionally wants to fail. I just think she has the ground prepared if she does, that's all. If you had to deal with the EU, wouldn't you?
    Fair point, but "not wanting to fail" is not a plan for success
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    YouGov Poll shows % public preference as follows

    Hard Brexit 39

    Soft Brexit 25

    Remain 23

    Not sure 13

    See
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/16/public-split-what-kind-brexit-they-think-governmen/

  • Options

    YouGov Poll shows % public preference as follows

    Hard Brexit 39

    Soft Brexit 25

    Remain 23

    Not sure 13

    See
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/16/public-split-what-kind-brexit-they-think-governmen/

    What about Aquafresh Brexit?
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    There is no doubt that the end of the newspaper as a purveyer of news, any news, is on the near horizon.

    I think that by 2035 the newspaper industry will be dead. There still may be organisations with the name of the Times or telegraph, but the newspapers themselves will be a thing of the past.

    I give books based on paper another 20 years but by 2060 they will be gone except for a very few print runs for special needs.

    I don't think anybody gives physical newspapers a long-term future. Books are different. They aren't a throwaway item like papers, and people like them: correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the market share for e-reader book sales as a percentage of the total has already flattened off in the UK.
    Like the paperless office, there is little sign (yet) that ebooks are going to take over the way mp3 / streaming music has done for the CD and Netflix is apparently killing DVD sales in a similar way.

    There are a number of problems with e-readers that have yet to have overcome and obviously iPads are far more popular because they can do so many things, but provide a far inferior experience for reading. I have to read a lot for a living and although I screen read pdfs initially, if I really want to take in the info it still gets printed off.
    That is true - what you wrote about books - but new types of iPad like reading machines will be developed. You may be able to read anything through specially adapted glasses.
    I am not saying never, just saying there is a way to go. There are also issues above and beyond just the screen e.g. interacting with a book, marking your page, quickly flicking from one page to another, illustrations / diagrams, etc etc etc.

    MR (mixed reality) could be one solution to this, but this is still an open research problem, let alone the resolution required for reading books.
    I am happy to read books on Kindle that do not require flipping back and forth between chapters. But have reverted to hardcopy for work books, even though that entails more typing in making notes than simply downloading my highlighted sections.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,439
    edited January 2017
    MTimT said:

    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:

    There is no doubt that the end of the newspaper as a purveyer of news, any news, is on the near horizon.

    I think that by 2035 the newspaper industry will be dead. There still may be organisations with the name of the Times or telegraph, but the newspapers themselves will be a thing of the past.

    I give books based on paper another 20 years but by 2060 they will be gone except for a very few print runs for special needs.

    I don't think anybody gives physical newspapers a long-term future. Books are different. They aren't a throwaway item like papers, and people like them: correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the market share for e-reader book sales as a percentage of the total has already flattened off in the UK.
    Like the paperless office, there is little sign (yet) that ebooks are going to take over the way mp3 / streaming music has done for the CD and Netflix is apparently killing DVD sales in a similar way.

    There are a number of problems with e-readers that have yet to have overcome and obviously iPads are far more popular because they can do so many things, but provide a far inferior experience for reading. I have to read a lot for a living and although I screen read pdfs initially, if I really want to take in the info it still gets printed off.
    That is true - what you wrote about books - but new types of iPad like reading machines will be developed. You may be able to read anything through specially adapted glasses.
    I am not saying never, just saying there is a way to go. There are also issues above and beyond just the screen e.g. interacting with a book, marking your page, quickly flicking from one page to another, illustrations / diagrams, etc etc etc.

    MR (mixed reality) could be one solution to this, but this is still an open research problem, let alone the resolution required for reading books.
    I am happy to read books on Kindle that do not require flipping back and forth between chapters. But have reverted to hardcopy for work books, even though that entails more typing in making notes than simply downloading my highlighted sections.
    Pretty much same here. Kindle vs iPad for reading is chalk and cheese for reading a novel by the pool on holibobs, but for work use there isn't a solution that beats paper.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    YouGov Poll shows % public preference as follows

    Hard Brexit 39

    Soft Brexit 25

    Remain 23

    Not sure 13

    See
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/16/public-split-what-kind-brexit-they-think-governmen/

    So 48 v 39
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,904

    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)

    @BritainElects:

    Westminster VI:
    CON: 42% (+3)
    LAB: 25% (-3)
    UKIP: 12% (-1)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    (YouGov / fieldwork post-Tuesday)


    So yes, post-speech
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,038
    surbiton said:

    YouGov Poll shows % public preference as follows

    Hard Brexit 39

    Soft Brexit 25

    Remain 23

    Not sure 13

    See
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/01/16/public-split-what-kind-brexit-they-think-governmen/

    So 48 v 39
    Or 64 vs 23 for some form of Brexit. Without asking a forced choice question there is little point speculating.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,904
    I take it the Sun Merkel Lightbulb front page which exercised the more sensitive souls was a spoof?
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    When will The Sun's circulation is reach zero ?
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549


    I think they're genuine about wanting to negotiate something, but they are actually preparing the ground in case they come away with little or nothing. Like I said, they can simply blame the EU for being unreasonable.

    The problem isn't selling no-deal, it's selling the UK's concessions. UKIP will be screaming that it's a sell-out. Will the voters take "they bullied me" as an answer? I suppose Tsipras got away with it, but he has highly-developed shrugging skills.
    .


    I think they're genuine about wanting to negotiate something, but they are actually preparing the ground in case they come away with little or nothing. Like I said, they can simply blame the EU for being unreasonable.

    The EU's reputation has already been shredded over its handling of multiple crises, and especially its treatment of Greece. It is a bully, and has been seen to act like one. And therefore voters, especially the majority who backed Leave, are far more likely to come down on the side of Theresa May than Jean-Claude Juncker in any spat, don't you think?

    The problem isn't selling no-deal, it's selling the UK's concessions. UKIP will be screaming that it's a sell-out. Will the voters take "they bullied me" as an answer? I suppose Tsipras got away with it, but he has highly-developed shrugging skills.
    If the Prime Minister thinks she can sell the deal, she will sell it. If she can't, she'll walk away. I would think that the difference between a saleable and unsaleable deal would be the balance between what the EU is prepared to offer, and what the UK has to give in return - that is, a minimal deal would still be worth bringing back if the burdens that it imposes on us are not too onerous. She can sell it as being worth having, whilst still intimating that its limitations are down to the reluctance of the EU negotiators to agree something more comprehensive.

    Ukip will scream at almost anything, but so long as the Prime Minister doesn't completely cave in I'm reasonably confident that they will remain a sideshow.
    When did it become a fact in the UK that a referendum was no longer advisory and Parliament just a side show ?

    It appears Parliament's job is just to accept a deal or reject it. It cannot amend.

    What a inglorious end to 900 years of tradition and gradual gain of power.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited January 2017
    New thread >>>>
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,038

    New thread >>>>

    Doing God's work....
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    YouGov Westminster VI GB wide (fieldwork this week, I think post Mrs May's speech)

    Con 42 (+3) Lab 25 (-3) UKIP 12 (-1) Lib Dems 11 (nc)

    @BritainElects:

    Westminster VI:
    CON: 42% (+3)
    LAB: 25% (-3)
    UKIP: 12% (-1)
    LDEM: 11% (-)
    (YouGov / fieldwork post-Tuesday)


    So yes, post-speech
    Christ.
This discussion has been closed.