Firstly, the Corbynites I have spoken to say that they believe that Jezza can win a GE.
Secondly, Corbyn will step down if the PLP guarantee that his preferred candidate is on the ballot. Otherwise I would expect him to hold out to 2020 however bad the polls.
On the off-topic, beer is superior to wine, fizzy or otherwise. Also part of our cultural heritage.
I am with you on beer. Wine is OK but give me a decent Real Ale or craft beer any day.
"I do slightly wonder why "the number one priority for most people is the NHS", though. Except when I am ill I never really think about it."
The same thought regularly occurs to me. Either the general population is much more poorly than we think it is or it's some kind of a trigger that a lot of Labour voters are sensitive to without any obvious reason.
On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.
Various thoughts:
1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements
2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London
3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?
That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless
I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)
It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
I'm not sure Tesco sell any shit wine these days unless they're still stocking Blue Nun, Le Piat d'Or and other branded rubbish from the 1980s.
I doubt much supermarket champagne is bought for the taste in any case but for more social reasons.
I think champagne is like all wines. You do get noticeably nicer bubbles as you climb the ladder to about £50 a bottle - beyond that snobbery, branding and rarity kick in and the gains in flavour are tiny and incremental, if they exist at all, and the pricing is insane.
I had my first bottle of Cristal (bought by a mate) the other day. £150. Couldn't distinguish it from a vintage Pol Roger costing, say, £60. But I CAN distinguish the £60 bottle from a £10 Sainsburys own brand champers
It has been suggested that the best champagnes at reasonable prices are the supermarkets' own labels because these have been expertly blended in the last few years.
Denbies make a more interesting sparkling wine than champagne and it comes out well in many wine tastings.
English sparkling is doing very well generally in tastings. There’s a good Cornish one. https://www.camelvalley.com
I had some Camel Valley - it was good, albeit not up to the level of the very best English sparkling wines. At close to 30 quid a bottle, it's hard to argue that it's value for money, mind.
It might just be the company I keep, but I recall hardly anyone really getting hung up on the "350million for the NHS" quote in the conversations I've had with friends, relatives, colleagues or random strangers about the referendum.
Me too. The only time I ever hear of it is on here. And those that raise it seem to wilfully ignore that our taxes are still being used to subsidise the EU at the moment and for the next 2 years (probably). Its strange.
Firstly, the Corbynites I have spoken to say that they believe that Jezza can win a GE.
Secondly, Corbyn will step down if the PLP guarantee that his preferred candidate is on the ballot. Otherwise I would expect him to hold out to 2020 however bad the polls.
On the off-topic, beer is superior to wine, fizzy or otherwise. Also part of our cultural heritage.
I am with you on beer. Wine is OK but give me a decent Real Ale or craft beer any day.
We've got some outstanding little breweries popping up in the North of the county. Charnwood and Wicked Hathern are really producing gorgeous ales. Try the Needle and Pin pub in The Rushes next time you're in Loughborough. Has over 80 beers at anyone time!
"The likes of Roger would welcome an NHS meltdown. He would dance a jig of delight if Brexit turns into a crock of shit, and wet his pants with glee if Trump turns out to be as barmy as he appears to be. It reinforces his belief that his way is right, and anyone who voted Out, or Tory, or Trump deserves all they get. Roger drapes himself in the title "progressive". He's the type who nods sagely whenever he reads articles in the Guardian that reflect his view about the racist xenophobic "so called people". He can't understand that his belief that he and is ilk are right and good and his view of how the world should be isnt shared by everyone. That's the mindset that bought us Brexit. That's why Hillary Clinton didn't get her turn as POTUS. Thats why we're heading into chaos. Happy New Year! "
Firstly, the Corbynites I have spoken to say that they believe that Jezza can win a GE.
Secondly, Corbyn will step down if the PLP guarantee that his preferred candidate is on the ballot. Otherwise I would expect him to hold out to 2020 however bad the polls.
On the off-topic, beer is superior to wine, fizzy or otherwise. Also part of our cultural heritage.
It's odd that Progress are opposing the loosening of the candidate eligibility requirement for exactly that reason. If they want Corbyn to go before 2020, ensuring that a left-wing candidate can stand is precisely what's needed, as well as being actually the more democratic option. A Corbyn resignation followed by a PLP shut-out of anyone left of Yvette would produce an ultimate meltdown.
Beer and wine have both been made obsolescent by Coca-Cola in my opinion. But I accept that this might not pass the Britishness test. Tasted Red Bull Cola yesterday (in a Salzburg pub - here for the New Year) - lacks either the fizz of Coke or the distinctive flavour of Red Bull, basically a bit meh.
"The likes of Roger would welcome an NHS meltdown. He would dance a jig of delight if Brexit turns into a crock of shit, and wet his pants with glee if Trump turns out to be as barmy as he appears to be. It reinforces his belief that his way is right, and anyone who voted Out, or Tory, or Trump deserves all they get. Roger drapes himself in the title "progressive". He's the type who nods sagely whenever he reads articles in the Guardian that reflect his view about the racist xenophobic "so called people". He can't understand that his belief that he and is ilk are right and good and his view of how the world should be isnt shared by everyone. That's the mindset that bought us Brexit. That's why Hillary Clinton didn't get her turn as POTUS. Thats why we're heading into chaos. Happy New Year! "
WOW! Happy New Year to you!
It's probably a bit off me using you as an example in that post, but for me, there is a type of Guardian worldview that just does have that smug, self righteous mindset that has helped drive Brexit and Trump forward. Rather than try and bring the people who don't share the same view along, that mindset hectors and lectures. It uses derogatory terms to discredited and bully. That probably did more damage to Remain than 350 quid to the NHS benefited leave.
It might just be the company I keep, but I recall hardly anyone really getting hung up on the "350million for the NHS" quote in the conversations I've had with friends, relatives, colleagues or random strangers about the referendum.
I overheard quite a few conversations about the £350 million in the campaign, but in the context of my waiting room.
It cut through not just because older WWC are parrticularly reliant on the NHS, but also as a form of social conservatism. This is not the USA, and social conservatism here is nostalgia for the post war welfare state, from council housing to grammar schools, but the NHS centrestage.
Hope that your family are being well treated by my LRI colleagues.
The NHS is also a relatively rare example of something potentially life-changing that the Government does for you. People don't really get excited by most Budgets - they gain £38 or lose £23 in a year, meh. But if you get ill, as we nearly all will sometime, and you MIGHT have to spend your entire savings AND go into debt AND still find it's not enough so you DIE, that is really scary and the government ensuring that it won't happen is pretty much as important as protecting us from riots or ensuring that education is adequate. The reason it isn't a decisive election-winner is that people do realise that it needs a reasonably good economy to finance it and ensure a reasonable chance of a decent job, anpother life-changing thing.
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
"The likes of Roger would welcome an NHS meltdown. He would dance a jig of delight if Brexit turns into a crock of shit, and wet his pants with glee if Trump turns out to be as barmy as he appears to be. It reinforces his belief that his way is right, and anyone who voted Out, or Tory, or Trump deserves all they get. Roger drapes himself in the title "progressive". He's the type who nods sagely whenever he reads articles in the Guardian that reflect his view about the racist xenophobic "so called people". He can't understand that his belief that he and is ilk are right and good and his view of how the world should be isnt shared by everyone. That's the mindset that bought us Brexit. That's why Hillary Clinton didn't get her turn as POTUS. Thats why we're heading into chaos. Happy New Year! "
WOW! Happy New Year to you!
It's probably a bit off me using you as an example in that post, but for me, there is a type of Guardian worldview that just does have that smug, self righteous mindset that has helped drive Brexit and Trump forward.
roger is good company down the pub, but I can cofirm he is a wine drinker. :-)
Forgive me for not posting a few minutes ago but I am on my mobile. After Sri Lanka won the toss for the New Year test match I placed a bet at 12 on Betfair. Intending to cash out my stake I logged on having seen three of SA top batsmen go cheaply only to find the market has hardly moved. This defies logic and my eyes. Sri Lanka are bowling superbly. Sri Lanka win was still at 10.5 a while ago and this looks astounding value with SA at 66/3. Obviously not a guaranteed win at that price but I suggest it's more a 4/1 shot.
On topic.. Corbyn is the biggest disaster for the Labour movement since computers.
@NickiPalmer - as you know, Nick, Clause 1 of the Labour party constitution states that Labour's aim is to achieve power through Parliament. To form an effective government, the Labour leader needs at least a base of support in the Parliamentary party. Reducing the threshold needed to gain a leadership nomination to 5% of MPs entirely side-lines the Parliamentary side of the equation.
What I also find puzzling is the inability of people like you to get behind any other left wing candidate that would have a better chance of victory (or at least non-terminal defeat) than someone who has led Labour to its worst opinion poll ratings since the early 1980s, at a time when we have a divided, directionless Tory government.
Are you seriously saying that no Labour MP - apart from Corbyn or McDonnell - is sufficiently left-wing enough for you to get behind? Is it really the case that the left cannot find a candidate who has a chance of uniting the party? The idea that it is only reactionary, right-wing members of the PLP that oppose the far-left is mind-numbingly absurd. Do you really believe that someone like Lisa Nandy is a Red Tory?
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
of course 24% could actually be a terrifying 21% I know it could be 27% but the 20% figure is where I think Labour are going if not there already. even at 24% the Tories have a electoral calculus majority of 92 (greens entered as 3%.)
It could get worse for Labour yet. A poll at below 20% and Corbyn will be gone. We must hope it doesn't happen
Labour polling numbers in Scotland should be focusing the minds of anyone who has ever even considered backing Labour. I don't rate May but if it's her or Corbyn at the next election the Labour Party may well be utterly ruined.
Do socialists drink beer and Conservatives drink wine?
Churchill brandy, Thatcher whisky, Hague beer, Cameron wine are the ones I know about without googling.
Churchill really drank champagne -- Pol Roger from pre-EU pint bottles. His brandy was 99.9 per cent soda -- he called it mouthwash -- and was presumably a habit from his days as an army officer in the tropical parts of the empire, where the water was not safe to drink.
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Kudos to @Tissue_Price for tipping Labour to be sub 20% at 12/1
Labour's problem is that it is now under the control of people who have never needed a Labour government and who have no real problem with Tory governments. In fact, many around the Labour leadership positively like Tory governments because they see them as catalysts for revolution (which is also why they back hard Brexit, of course). But, in the end, that's why I expect them to go. It is all about the unions. As soon as McCluskey presses the button - or, if by some miracle, he loses the Unite leadership - then Corbyn and the hard left are finished. And the button will most certainly be pressed. The bottom line for the unions is that the longer the Tories are in power the weaker and less relevant they become.
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
The SNP will take Glasgow comfortably this time. Its surprising that they did so poorly there the last time. SLAB are immeasurably weaker than they were in 2012.
Hypothetically, I probably would vote Labour as a direct alternative to the SNP but they don't make it easy. At the last election in Dundee West I would have been tempted if I had thought that Labour had any chance at all but they clearly didn't. Locally, my ward is solid SNP with the Tories a distant second so it doesn't arise.
It might just be the company I keep, but I recall hardly anyone really getting hung up on the "350million for the NHS" quote in the conversations I've had with friends, relatives, colleagues or random strangers about the referendum.
Me too. The only time I ever hear of it is on here. And those that raise it seem to wilfully ignore that our taxes are still being used to subsidise the EU at the moment and for the next 2 years (probably). Its strange.
I suspect that applies to 95% of people - I didn't hear anyone talking about extra money for the NHS even during the referendum campaign.
Yet Roger in Provence overhears it continually among his like minded friends. Together with the annual 'NHS about to collapse' talk.
Its reminiscent of EdM and his 'ordinary people' of Dartmouth Park.
@NickiPalmer - as you know, Nick, Clause 1 of the Labour party constitution states that Labour's aim is to achieve power through Parliament. To form an effective government, the Labour leader needs at least a base of support in the Parliamentary party. Reducing the threshold needed to gain a leadership nomination to 5% of MPs entirely side-lines the Parliamentary side of the equation.
What I also find puzzling is the inability of people like you to get behind any other left wing candidate that would have a better chance of victory (or at least non-terminal defeat) than someone who has led Labour to its worst opinion poll ratings since the early 1980s, at a time when we have a divided, directionless Tory government.
Are you seriously saying that no Labour MP - apart from Corbyn or McDonnell - is sufficiently left-wing enough for you to get behind? Is it really the case that the left cannot find a candidate who has a chance of uniting the party? The idea that it is only reactionary, right-wing members of the PLP that oppose the far-left is mind-numbingly absurd. Do you really believe that someone like Lisa Nandy is a Red Tory?
It's about purity and a return to their lost youth. Long ago, the grass was greener, the sun shone brighter and the girls were prettier. Socialism (with a capital S) was the Vanguard of Human Progress. They were young, happy and on the March To The Future.
Then they compromised and settled down with the Third Way stuff. And actually won.... Then that relationship soured and ended badly.
So they were drinking on their own in a pub and in walked....
On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.
Various thoughts:
1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements
2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London
3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?
That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless
I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)
It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
It's shit quality, dyed, factory farmed parasite infested pap. The markup on factory farmed salmons must be eye watering.
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
Labour's own internal polling (recently leaked and reported) put it ten points adrift of the Tories, and also apparently suggested that Labour "no longer has a core vote." The Scottish Left appears to have swung decisively against the Union, and those for whom the SNP is insufficiently radical just go to the Green Party instead, especially in elections under PR where they can desert the Nats without compromising their pro-independence principles. The Lib Dems - who have not equivocated in their opposition to Nationalism - are best placed to mop up any centrist pro-Union voters who still can't bear to back the Tories.
What's left of the Labour vote in Scotland has largely haemorrhaged away to Ruth Davidson's Conservatives, as the Unionist vote coalesces around them. The next time we get a Scotland-only poll with full tables, I would look carefully at what's left of the Labour vote and see what it says about them: my guess is that the remaining Labour supporters will be disproportionately elderly, Unionist, brand loyalty voters.
Scottish Labour is likely to survive a wipeout in next May's council elections only by courtesy of the PR voting system in use. In the longer term, it may simply die out with its last generation of loyal supporters.
It might just be the company I keep, but I recall hardly anyone really getting hung up on the "350million for the NHS" quote in the conversations I've had with friends, relatives, colleagues or random strangers about the referendum.
Certainly never heard it mentioned up here, though it was really aimed at English National Health Service.
Firstly, the Corbynites I have spoken to say that they believe that Jezza can win a GE.
Secondly, Corbyn will step down if the PLP guarantee that his preferred candidate is on the ballot. Otherwise I would expect him to hold out to 2020 however bad the polls.
On the off-topic, beer is superior to wine, fizzy or otherwise. Also part of our cultural heritage.
I am with you on beer. Wine is OK but give me a decent Real Ale or craft beer any day.
We've got some outstanding little breweries popping up in the North of the county. Charnwood and Wicked Hathern are really producing gorgeous ales. Try the Needle and Pin pub in The Rushes next time you're in Loughborough. Has over 80 beers at anyone time!
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
Labour's own internal polling (recently leaked and reported) put it ten points adrift of the Tories, and also apparently suggested that Labour "no longer has a core vote." The Scottish Left appears to have swung decisively against the Union, and those for whom the SNP is insufficiently radical just go to the Green Party instead, especially in elections under PR where they can desert the Nats without compromising their pro-independence principles. The Lib Dems - who have not equivocated in their opposition to Nationalism - are best placed to mop up any centrist pro-Union voters who still can't bear to back the Tories.
What's left of the Labour vote in Scotland has largely haemorrhaged away to Ruth Davidson's Conservatives, as the Unionist vote coalesces around them. The next time we get a Scotland-only poll with full tables, I would look carefully at what's left of the Labour vote and see what it says about them: my guess is that the remaining Labour supporters will be disproportionately elderly, Unionist, brand loyalty voters.
Scottish Labour is likely to survive a wipeout in next May's council elections only by courtesy of the PR voting system in use. In the longer term, it may simply die out with its last generation of loyal supporters.
Then again, that's what they were saying about the Scottish Tory party not so very long ago. The death of parties is often heralded, but seen much less often
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
The SNP will take Glasgow comfortably this time. Its surprising that they did so poorly there the last time. SLAB are immeasurably weaker than they were in 2012.
Hypothetically, I probably would vote Labour as a direct alternative to the SNP but they don't make it easy. At the last election in Dundee West I would have been tempted if I had thought that Labour had any chance at all but they clearly didn't. Locally, my ward is solid SNP with the Tories a distant second so it doesn't arise.
Labour are going to get an absolute drubbing in Scotland this year. Their only hope is that Tories hold their noses and vote for the unionist rather than stay home. That's why Kezia flirting with independence or some kind of EU membership outside of the UK is literally the worst of both worlds.
Labour polling numbers in Scotland should be focusing the minds of anyone who has ever even considered backing Labour. I don't rate May but if it's her or Corbyn at the next election the Labour Party may well be utterly ruined.
Exactly so. The question for Labour is not whether Corbyn will lose (that is a no brainer) but whether he will lose so badly that the next election after his departure is simply out of reach. I think it is increasingly likely that Labour will find themselves needing a Cameron like victory of about 100 seats simply to become the largest party after the next election. If that were to happen even more of the limited talent available may find something more productive to do with their lives.
I struggle to remember a winter when the NHS wasnt on the verge of meltdown.
And the staff will ‘manage’ as they always do; unpaid overtime, no breaks etc etc.
I doubt they do any mor eunpaid overtime, lack of breaks than your average person. If you ever watch any programme on the NHS on telly they are always sitting about stuffing themselves with cakes and chocolates. You do not see many skinny NHS workers.
On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.
Various thoughts:
1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements
2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London
3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?
That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless
I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)
It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
I'm not sure Tesco sell any shit wine these days unless they're still stocking Blue Nun, Le Piat d'Or and other branded rubbish from the 1980s.
I doubt much supermarket champagne is bought for the taste in any case but for more social reasons.
I think champagne is like all wines. You do get noticeably nicer bubbles as you climb the ladder to about £50 a bottle - beyond that snobbery, branding and rarity kick in and the gains in flavour are tiny and incremental, if they exist at all, and the pricing is insane.
I had my first bottle of Cristal (bought by a mate) the other day. £150. Couldn't distinguish it from a vintage Pol Roger costing, say, £60. But I CAN distinguish the £60 bottle from a £10 Sainsburys own brand champers
It has been suggested that the best champagnes at reasonable prices are the supermarkets' own labels because these have been expertly blended in the last few years.
Denbies make a more interesting sparkling wine than champagne and it comes out well in many wine tastings.
Recently I've switched from champagne to English sparkling wine (although I might give Pol Roger a try now SeanT has (sort of) recommended it in this thread). I'd like to see more quarter bottles, though perhaps they are environmentally unsound, but none of the ESW houses sell them, sfaict. Quarter bottles are great for lone users who just want a cold drink on a hot day. Moet through a straw.
Labour's problem is that it is now under the control of people who have never needed a Labour government and who have no real problem with Tory governments. In fact, many around the Labour leadership positively like Tory governments because they see them as catalysts for revolution (which is also why they back hard Brexit, of course). But, in the end, that's why I expect them to go. It is all about the unions. As soon as McCluskey presses the button - or, if by some miracle, he loses the Unite leadership - then Corbyn and the hard left are finished. And the button will most certainly be pressed. The bottom line for the unions is that the longer the Tories are in power the weaker and less relevant they become.
Why? Corbyn shows every sign of being determined to continue come Hell or high water, and the Unions have no mechanism by which to force his removal.
The membership backs Corbyn, and unless or until he goes of his own accord he is therefore immovable. The only power that the Unions have over the leadership is to withdraw funding and allow Labour to go bankrupt, which would be an act of total desperation and destroy the Labour movement as a unified force. They are powerless.
I struggle to remember a winter when the NHS wasnt on the verge of meltdown.
One problem may be that Health Secretaries for the past few decades have been more interested in grand organisational redesigns than the day-to-day stuff.
Do socialists drink beer and Conservatives drink wine?
Churchill brandy, Thatcher whisky, Hague beer, Cameron wine are the ones I know about without googling.
Churchill really drank champagne -- Pol Roger from pre-EU pint bottles. His brandy was 99.9 per cent soda -- he called it mouthwash -- and was presumably a habit from his days as an army officer in the tropical parts of the empire, where the water was not safe to drink.
Roy Jenkins drank a bottle of claret a day. Harold Wilson drank whisky but may have hidden this from the public; he also hid the cigars.
According to a friend, John Hemming said he needed about 5 pints/day of beer to cope with being an MP.
and was associated with expensive champagne from his Bullingdon days but also convincingly drank beer in pubs.
Tim used to have a hilariously bad photo of Cameron supposedly drinking Guinness at home which he used to post regularly. I still miss his acerbic wit.
"The likes of Roger would welcome an NHS meltdown. He would dance a jig of delight if Brexit turns into a crock of shit, and wet his pants with glee if Trump turns out to be as barmy as he appears to be. It reinforces his belief that his way is right, and anyone who voted Out, or Tory, or Trump deserves all they get. Roger drapes himself in the title "progressive". He's the type who nods sagely whenever he reads articles in the Guardian that reflect his view about the racist xenophobic "so called people". He can't understand that his belief that he and is ilk are right and good and his view of how the world should be isnt shared by everyone. That's the mindset that bought us Brexit. That's why Hillary Clinton didn't get her turn as POTUS. Thats why we're heading into chaos. Happy New Year! "
WOW! Happy New Year to you!
It's probably a bit off me using you as an example in that post, but for me, there is a type of Guardian worldview that just does have that smug, self righteous mindset that has helped drive Brexit and Trump forward. Rather than try and bring the people who don't share the same view along, that mindset hectors and lectures. It uses derogatory terms to discredited and bully. That probably did more damage to Remain than 350 quid to the NHS benefited leave.
TFS, you were a bit gentle on him , but got close to describing him, a smug right wing ***********
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
SLab are going to get reamed in Glasgow, to the point that the SCons will likely increase their tally from their current single councillor. You might consider that a facet of the national Indy v Unionist realignment.
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
They might try but only so many ex Labour can hold their noses and vote Tory. Only winners are the SNP. Lets the Tories be the best of the losers whilst labour try to get themselves lower than the Lib Dumbs
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
SLab are going to get reamed in Glasgow, to the point that the SCons will likely increase their tally from their current single councillor. You might consider that a facet of the national Indy v Unionist realignment.
Davidson's success in consolidating the Unionist vote will hurt both Labour and the Lib Dems. She cleverly positions herself as pretty centrist for a Tory which makes her much more tolerable to the Unionist centre left. And, as others have point out, the more mainstream left is being tempted by Sturgeon's version of the SNP a lot more than they ever were by Salmond.
Do socialists drink beer and Conservatives drink wine?
Churchill brandy, Thatcher whisky, Hague beer, Cameron wine are the ones I know about without googling.
Churchill really drank champagne -- Pol Roger from pre-EU pint bottles. His brandy was 99.9 per cent soda -- he called it mouthwash -- and was presumably a habit from his days as an army officer in the tropical parts of the empire, where the water was not safe to drink.
That sounds like a good one , I will use that in future and blame the water purity.
@Black_Rook - there are always ways and means. Control of the NEC is crucial and when Unite turns against Corbyn the anti-Corbynistas will be in unequivocal control of it and in charge of setting party rules.
Then again, that's what they were saying about the Scottish Tory party not so very long ago. The death of parties is often heralded, but seen much less often
Yes, but however miserable the position of the Scots Tories was, they still had a natural base of support (just as in England during the Blair landslides, when they were crushed in terms of seats but still won more then 30% of the popular vote.)
Where is Labour's core? Is there any significant remaining constituency for a left-leaning party with an offer clearly different to that of the Nats and Greens?
Again as in England, I contend that it's the brand loyalty vote that stands between Labour and its reduction to a rump. But the state of decay in Scotland is so much worse because it also has a stronger and more appealing rival on the Left, and consequently I suspect that only the loyalty of some older voters has been maintained: the consequence, of course, of the independence referendum and its fallout. Once the cycle of inter-generational habit voting is broken, a rump party like Scottish Labour is at risk, quite simply, of ageing and dying out with its remaining supporters.
and was associated with expensive champagne from his Bullingdon days but also convincingly drank beer in pubs.
Tim used to have a hilariously bad photo of Cameron supposedly drinking Guinness at home which he used to post regularly. I still miss his acerbic wit.
That 'clouds in the guinness' photo has a politicalbetting label:
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
The SNP will take Glasgow comfortably this time. Its surprising that they did so poorly there the last time. SLAB are immeasurably weaker than they were in 2012.
Hypothetically, I probably would vote Labour as a direct alternative to the SNP but they don't make it easy. At the last election in Dundee West I would have been tempted if I had thought that Labour had any chance at all but they clearly didn't. Locally, my ward is solid SNP with the Tories a distant second so it doesn't arise.
David, surprised and disappointed that you would vote against Scotland's interests just for dogma
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
The SNP will take Glasgow comfortably this time. Its surprising that they did so poorly there the last time. SLAB are immeasurably weaker than they were in 2012.
Hypothetically, I probably would vote Labour as a direct alternative to the SNP but they don't make it easy. At the last election in Dundee West I would have been tempted if I had thought that Labour had any chance at all but they clearly didn't. Locally, my ward is solid SNP with the Tories a distant second so it doesn't arise.
David, surprised and disappointed that you would vote against Scotland's interests just for dogma
Malcolm, I think we disagree about whether Scotland being independent is in its interests or not! Notwithstanding that may I wish you and yours a very happy and prosperous New Year.
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
The SNP will take Glasgow comfortably this time. Its surprising that they did so poorly there the last time. SLAB are immeasurably weaker than they were in 2012.
Hypothetically, I probably would vote Labour as a direct alternative to the SNP but they don't make it easy. At the last election in Dundee West I would have been tempted if I had thought that Labour had any chance at all but they clearly didn't. Locally, my ward is solid SNP with the Tories a distant second so it doesn't arise.
Labour are going to get an absolute drubbing in Scotland this year. Their only hope is that Tories hold their noses and vote for the unionist rather than stay home. That's why Kezia flirting with independence or some kind of EU membership outside of the UK is literally the worst of both worlds.
Her issue is that she is not flirting with independence etc, that is why they are continuing to drop, being the Tories little unionist helpers is not a winning strategy. Due to hating teh SNP they have chosen total destruction rather than being one of two parties that could be in government, and all for being patsies to the Tories.
On topic those Yougov numbers are truly terrible for Labour. They have had a fairly secure floor of the very high 20s for as long as I can remember (there may have been the odd outlier) and they have now fallen decisively through it. They still have some months to recover before the May elections but there will surely be consternation amongst many civic leaders in local government about where they might be starting from.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
Not even Glasgow? Is that a motivated turnout issue?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
The SNP will take Glasgow comfortably this time. Its surprising that they did so poorly there the last time. SLAB are immeasurably weaker than they were in 2012.
Hypothetically, I probably would vote Labour as a direct alternative to the SNP but they don't make it easy. At the last election in Dundee West I would have been tempted if I had thought that Labour had any chance at all but they clearly didn't. Locally, my ward is solid SNP with the Tories a distant second so it doesn't arise.
David, surprised and disappointed that you would vote against Scotland's interests just for dogma
Malcolm, I think we disagree about whether Scotland being independent is in its interests or not! Notwithstanding that may I wish you and yours a very happy and prosperous New Year.
David, I was not thinking of independence, current Labour mob would be disastrous for Scotland in any way shape or form. I also wish you and yuor family best wishes for a very happy and prosperous New Year. Whatever it will be it will for sure be an interesting year for Scotland.
Latest YouGov survey for The Times. Tables not yet up on YouGov website when I last checked, but essential details as follows:
* Declining economic confidence * Tory numbers for economic competence have declined - but so have Labour's (more DKs, no other party benefiting) * More than half of 2015 Labour voters say Corbyn doing a bad job * Support for an early election is rising
In light of our recent discussions on facts and opinions there was an interesting programme on Radio 4 this morning on post-truth. Apparently there is already a growing academic literature on the subject - and it is not as new as some people think. On champage - just opened a bottle of Veuve Devanlay Brut ( £10 from Morrisons). Not the best but very drinkable.
1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements
2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London
3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?
That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless
I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)
It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
I'm not sure Tesco sell any shit wine these days unless they're still stocking Blue Nun, Le Piat d'Or and other branded rubbish from the 1980s.
I doubt much supermarket champagne is bought for the taste in any case but for more social reasons.
I think champagne is like all wines. You do get noticeably nicer bubbles as you climb the ladder to about £50 a bottle - beyond that snobbery, branding and rarity kick in and the gains in flavour are tiny and incremental, if they exist at all, and the pricing is insane.
I had my first bottle of Cristal (bought by a mate) the other day. £150. Couldn't distinguish it from a vintage Pol Roger costing, say, £60. But I CAN distinguish the £60 bottle from a £10 Sainsburys own brand champers
It has been suggested that the best champagnes at reasonable prices are the supermarkets' own labels because these have been expertly blended in the last few years.
Denbies make a more interesting sparkling wine than champagne and it comes out well in many wine tastings.
Recently I've switched from champagne to English sparkling wine (although I might give Pol Roger a try now SeanT has (sort of) recommended it in this thread). I'd like to see more quarter bottles, though perhaps they are environmentally unsound, but none of the ESW houses sell them, sfaict. Quarter bottles are great for lone users who just want a cold drink on a hot day. Moet through a straw.
Agree about the price of Camel etc. There’s a restaurant near us that ONLY serves English wine, including their own (They’ve a vineyard, too). Most of the sparkling, IMHO is too expensive ..... TBF it usually is in restaurants .... and most of the red is barely to un-drinkable. The whites and rosés, on the hand are often superb.
I struggle to remember a winter when the NHS wasnt on the verge of meltdown.
And the staff will ‘manage’ as they always do; unpaid overtime, no breaks etc etc.
I doubt they do any mor eunpaid overtime, lack of breaks than your average person. If you ever watch any programme on the NHS on telly they are always sitting about stuffing themselves with cakes and chocolates. You do not see many skinny NHS workers.
The real problem with the NHS is that it still has the 19th/early 20th Cent pyramid of management. Reporting chains of 10 or more people - one reporting to the next.
You have people in the middle who are simply collating reporting from below and passing them up the chain, and passing orders down.
Comments
"I do slightly wonder why "the number one priority for most people is the NHS", though. Except when I am ill I never really think about it."
The same thought regularly occurs to me. Either the general population is much more poorly than we think it is or it's some kind of a trigger that a lot of Labour voters are sensitive to without any obvious reason.
"Miss B/Mr. Roger, as someone who voted Leave, that's not what it means to me. "
How do you know the sex of posters? It's impressive if slightly worrying....
Happy New Year Alanbrooke!
"The likes of Roger would welcome an NHS meltdown. He would dance a jig of delight if Brexit turns into a crock of shit, and wet his pants with glee if Trump turns out to be as barmy as he appears to be. It reinforces his belief that his way is right, and anyone who voted Out, or Tory, or Trump deserves all they get. Roger drapes himself in the title "progressive". He's the type who nods sagely whenever he reads articles in the Guardian that reflect his view about the racist xenophobic "so called people". He can't understand that his belief that he and is ilk are right and good and his view of how the world should be isnt shared by everyone. That's the mindset that bought us Brexit. That's why Hillary Clinton didn't get her turn as POTUS. Thats why we're heading into chaos.
Happy New Year! "
WOW! Happy New Year to you!
Beer and wine have both been made obsolescent by Coca-Cola in my opinion. But I accept that this might not pass the Britishness test.
The position in Scotland (which Corbyn said was going to be a priority for him) is looking increasingly hopeless. There is no chance of them holding onto a single Council in the country and they look set to take very heavy losses to both the SNP and the Tories in the west and east respectively.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2
Forgive me for not posting a few minutes ago but I am on my mobile. After Sri Lanka won the toss for the New Year test match I placed a bet at 12 on Betfair. Intending to cash out my stake I logged on having seen three of SA top batsmen go cheaply only to find the market has hardly moved. This defies logic and my eyes. Sri Lanka are bowling superbly. Sri Lanka win was still at 10.5 a while ago and this looks astounding value with SA at 66/3. Obviously not a guaranteed win at that price but I suggest it's more a 4/1 shot.
On topic.. Corbyn is the biggest disaster for the Labour movement since computers.
What I also find puzzling is the inability of people like you to get behind any other left wing candidate that would have a better chance of victory (or at least non-terminal defeat) than someone who has led Labour to its worst opinion poll ratings since the early 1980s, at a time when we have a divided, directionless Tory government.
Are you seriously saying that no Labour MP - apart from Corbyn or McDonnell - is sufficiently left-wing enough for you to get behind? Is it really the case that the left cannot find a candidate who has a chance of uniting the party? The idea that it is only reactionary, right-wing members of the PLP that oppose the far-left is mind-numbingly absurd. Do you really believe that someone like Lisa Nandy is a Red Tory?
Would you vote for a Labour candidate locally to keep out an SNP one or is that a national not local strategy?
It could get worse for Labour yet. A poll at below 20% and Corbyn will be gone. We must hope it doesn't happen
"roger is good company down the pub, but I can cofirm he is a wine drinker. :-)"
A Guardian reader who doesn't drink beer!
QED!!
Hypothetically, I probably would vote Labour as a direct alternative to the SNP but they don't make it easy. At the last election in Dundee West I would have been tempted if I had thought that Labour had any chance at all but they clearly didn't. Locally, my ward is solid SNP with the Tories a distant second so it doesn't arise.
Yet Roger in Provence overhears it continually among his like minded friends. Together with the annual 'NHS about to collapse' talk.
Its reminiscent of EdM and his 'ordinary people' of Dartmouth Park.
Then they compromised and settled down with the Third Way stuff. And actually won.... Then that relationship soured and ended badly.
So they were drinking on their own in a pub and in walked....
It's a mid-life crisis really.
What's left of the Labour vote in Scotland has largely haemorrhaged away to Ruth Davidson's Conservatives, as the Unionist vote coalesces around them. The next time we get a Scotland-only poll with full tables, I would look carefully at what's left of the Labour vote and see what it says about them: my guess is that the remaining Labour supporters will be disproportionately elderly, Unionist, brand loyalty voters.
Scottish Labour is likely to survive a wipeout in next May's council elections only by courtesy of the PR voting system in use. In the longer term, it may simply die out with its last generation of loyal supporters.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/feb/18/david-cameron-guinness-darts-sky
and was associated with expensive champagne from his Bullingdon days but also convincingly drank beer in pubs.
The membership backs Corbyn, and unless or until he goes of his own accord he is therefore immovable. The only power that the Unions have over the leadership is to withdraw funding and allow Labour to go bankrupt, which would be an act of total desperation and destroy the Labour movement as a unified force. They are powerless.
According to a friend, John Hemming said he needed about 5 pints/day of beer to cope with being an MP.
Where is Labour's core? Is there any significant remaining constituency for a left-leaning party with an offer clearly different to that of the Nats and Greens?
Again as in England, I contend that it's the brand loyalty vote that stands between Labour and its reduction to a rump. But the state of decay in Scotland is so much worse because it also has a stronger and more appealing rival on the Left, and consequently I suspect that only the loyalty of some older voters has been maintained: the consequence, of course, of the independence referendum and its fallout. Once the cycle of inter-generational habit voting is broken, a rump party like Scottish Labour is at risk, quite simply, of ageing and dying out with its remaining supporters.
http://politicalbetting.s3.amazonaws.com/2011+Jan/david-cameron-drinks-guinness-while-samantha-holds-florence-pic-conservative-party-545377696.jpg
If that doesn't mark my lefty, greeny, working class credentials I don't know what will.
Remainers killing the NHS.
I also wish you and yuor family best wishes for a very happy and prosperous New Year. Whatever it will be it will for sure be an interesting year for Scotland.
On champage - just opened a bottle of Veuve Devanlay Brut ( £10 from Morrisons). Not the best but very drinkable.
You have people in the middle who are simply collating reporting from below and passing them up the chain, and passing orders down.