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  • glwglw Posts: 10,298

    If they are called to perform such duty, you have to acknowledge that there is a high chance of mistakes. Hence, they should only be used when you can be fairly sure (not certain) that the risk they are on the streets to prevent is greater than the risks from mistakes.

    Much of the above depends on the type of emergency as well: if it is one where the population is in favour of them being there, the risks are much reduced over a NI-style situation.

    The problem I have is that in the mainland UK we can only go from the use of a relatively small number of specialist police to calling out the army. There's no intermediate step in the escalation, if there is a national crisis it will be troops on the streets. Now I don't think that would be a catastrophe, but it would be better if we had some non-military option when we need more than a few thousand armed police.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited December 2016
    SkyNews seems to be overwhelmed by hard news today.

    Gillian and Niall keep diverting into weather stories whilst Adam wibbled about homeless statistics.

    No mention of Malta hijacking at all bar a screen grab

    They've lost the plot wholesale.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
    I disagree. Charles may have some odd ideas and a messy love life but he is conscientious. Remember Edward VII was widely written off before he became King, but he worked hard, became if anything more popular than his mother and was very effective in some fields, especially in foreign affairs.
    Well Charles has a lot to prove, I hope he is up to it as well.
    Charles's biggest problem will be pretending he shares his mum's interest in horseracing for all five days of Royal Ascot.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,298
    edited December 2016
    Cyclefree said:

    Re NI, the borders weren't closed for all the reasons you describe. But the security services embarked on a pretty serious and, ultimately, successful campaign to make it difficult for the terrorists to operate. It's not at all clear that the same is being done by all the relevant European authorities in relation to the threat the whole of Europe faces from Islamist terrorism.

    Indeed the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic was under a lot of surveillance, and likely it still is even if it is a lot less obvious now with the watch towers being removed.
  • Dura_Ace said:



    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @MaxPB I doubt Charles will abdicate, the monarchy isn't a popularity contest :)

    Unfortunately it is, and if they want to keep the realm in tact then they will have realised that Wills and Kate are the key to keeping everything going. The UK will never dump the Monarchy, but Canada and Australia might.
    Australia will be a republic within 5 years of QE2 going under the sod.
    Someone's going to bury the ship?

    When QEII's time comes she's going to St George's Chapel, Windsor, with her father, mother & sister's ashes....
  • MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
    I disagree. Charles may have some odd ideas and a messy love life but he is conscientious. Remember Edward VII was widely written off before he became King, but he worked hard, became if anything more popular than his mother and was very effective in some fields, especially in foreign affairs.
    Given your username, perhaps you should be declaring an interest, Your Royal Highness?
  • " William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen."

    I disagree - William (and Harry for that matter) demonstrate distinct playboy characteristics, and appear to enjoy nothing better than mixing with showbiz and other assorted luvvies. That's not what being a senior member of the Royal Family is supposed to be all about.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Airport Webcams
    UPDATE: Malta Airport closed. Inbounds holding or diverting to Palermo, Catania. Reports of '2 hijackers with grenades' | Pics: Sky News, RT https://t.co/ZCQJX5ZkOO
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I predicted yesterday elsewhere that he would probably shoot at police, although I thought it would be in Germany rather than Italy.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Frank Gardner
    #Berlin attack suspect Anis Amri's escape route was via hi-speed train thru France to Turin then regional train to Milan. Stopped at 3am
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited December 2016
    Presumably Anis Amri caught the train to Milan in Germany but the Germans did not identify him whilst the Italian policeman did.

    Edit - He may have caught the train to Milan in France.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    The Grand Tour - after six episodes all the smutty non-BBC jokes finally come out. Well I say they come out, they're not homosexual or anything though.

    Not one to watch with the young kids!
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited December 2016

    No result from Aylesham yet?

    Easy Labour hold
    Lab 460 Con 283
    Lab 62% (-6%)
    Con 38% (+38%)

    22% swing. Con gain the North!

    More seriously, very unusual that the Tories didn't manage to put up candidates in 2015.

    NB This is also an 14% swing from 2011, which was likewise a straight Lab-Con fight.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,077
    Off topic: Someone was up burning the midnight oil backing Sir Keir Starmer at 6-1 for next Labour leader on Betfair.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,867
    glw said:

    If they are called to perform such duty, you have to acknowledge that there is a high chance of mistakes. Hence, they should only be used when you can be fairly sure (not certain) that the risk they are on the streets to prevent is greater than the risks from mistakes.

    Much of the above depends on the type of emergency as well: if it is one where the population is in favour of them being there, the risks are much reduced over a NI-style situation.

    The problem I have is that in the mainland UK we can only go from the use of a relatively small number of specialist police to calling out the army. There's no intermediate step in the escalation, if there is a national crisis it will be troops on the streets. Now I don't think that would be a catastrophe, but it would be better if we had some non-military option when we need more than a few thousand armed police.
    Do we really need such an increase in capacity ?
    We managed to police the Olympics without any obvious hitch; we haven't suffered any 'spectaculars' in recent years; the effectiveness of armed police against a heavy goods vehicle incident in minimal.
    Our resources are best kept in intelligence, which appears to be quite effective.
    And as rcs points out, just having that extra capacity is likely to lead to accidents.

    That the police force itself might have been run down too much in recent years, thanks to funding cuts, is another matter... a bit like the 'peace dividend'.

  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sandpit said:

    The Grand Tour - after six episodes all the smutty non-BBC jokes finally come out. Well I say they come out, they're not homosexual or anything though.

    Not one to watch with the young kids!

    I'm still beyond peed off that Prime won't play on my Android. It's crap app. I can watch Netflix no problem - but need my laptap/TV for Amazon. Terrible tech.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    edited December 2016
    @Tissue_Price: Different King Charles. Assuming he reigns as King Charles, of course.

    I see there was actually a thread on this very subject years ago!

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2008/12/20/what-will-be-the-regnal-name-of-the-next-king/
  • PlatoSaid said:

    Sandpit said:

    The Grand Tour - after six episodes all the smutty non-BBC jokes finally come out. Well I say they come out, they're not homosexual or anything though.

    Not one to watch with the young kids!

    I'm still beyond peed off that Prime won't play on my Android. It's crap app. I can watch Netflix no problem - but need my laptap/TV for Amazon. Terrible tech.
    I'm in the same boat Amazon wise.
    Use Kodi instead, streams perfectly on Android.

  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    BBC
    '2 people on board have been threatening to blow up the plane' - Magda Magri Naudi, Deputy Mayor for Lija, Malta https://t.co/9RgIoleEjI https://t.co/RMzJAn3ufc
  • Cyclefree said:

    rcs1000 said:


    I look at it like this, and you are free to disagree:

    The cost of securing long land borders is non-negligible, either in terms of the amount of manpower required, and in terms of the frictional costs on people in getting from a-to-b. Not only that, but long land borders are inherently porous. You can ski from Italy into Switzerland, for example, and no fence or wall is going to stop that.

    So, as a country you have a choice: do you want to take the significant economic costs, inconvenience law abiding citizens, and which may still have only a limited effect on terrorists' ability to cross borders.

    It's like this: we could cut road deaths 40% over night by dramatically reducing speed limits in the UK. But as a society there's been a tacit acceptance that the current limits have an acceptable casualty vs economics vs convenience trade off. The same is true of terrorism and crime.

    In the early 1980s, with a major terrorist problem in Northern Ireland, and with IRA members flitting over the (Schengen-like) border without difficulty, Mrs Thatcher faced the same choice. Impose border controls and build a wall - with serious economic consequences on an already economically depressed region - or allow the terrorists to easily cross the border. They decided that the border could not be efficiently sealed, and therefore the costs were not worth it.

    Now, you are free to say the countries of the Schengen zone (which, of course, includes Switzerland, who voted in a referendum to join), should prioritise prevention of terrorism. But I suspect they'll make the same calculation Mrs Thatcher made, and - except where there are obvious choke points that can be easily policed - leave the borders open.
    That all makes sense. But it makes it imperative to have far more effective controls at your external borders and an effective system of removing those who get in but you don't want.
    The (perceived?) lack of this is, I think, at the root cause of British people thinking that "immigration" is a problem. I suspect people would be generally happy with people coming here to work so long as they can be kicked out later if they need to be.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,867
    PlatoSaid said:

    Sandpit said:

    The Grand Tour - after six episodes all the smutty non-BBC jokes finally come out. Well I say they come out, they're not homosexual or anything though.

    Not one to watch with the young kids!

    I'm still beyond peed off that Prime won't play on my Android. It's crap app. I can watch Netflix no problem - but need my laptap/TV for Amazon. Terrible tech.
    Android's not >that< bad...
    :-)
  • PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Gardner
    #Berlin attack suspect Anis Amri's escape route was via hi-speed train thru France to Turin then regional train to Milan. Stopped at 3am

    Interesting - if his aim was Milan (rather than just wandering about) a more direct route would be via Switzerland and Basel - but perhaps the Swiss have more robust checks....
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    " William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen."

    I disagree - William (and Harry for that matter) demonstrate distinct playboy characteristics, and appear to enjoy nothing better than mixing with showbiz and other assorted luvvies. That's not what being a senior member of the Royal Family is supposed to be all about.

    Quite. Of course they're relatively young yet, (though much older than Elizabeth was when her father died) but I'd be more worried about William as the heir than Charles at this point. Though I would expect William to shape up once he is the heir - at the moment he doesn't have to.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MaxPB said:



    Well Charles has a lot to prove, I hope he is up to it as well.

    Well Happy Christmas to you too!

    :trollface:
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    " William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen."

    I disagree - William (and Harry for that matter) demonstrate distinct playboy characteristics, and appear to enjoy nothing better than mixing with showbiz and other assorted luvvies. That's not what being a senior member of the Royal Family is supposed to be all about.

    Surely the whole point of monarchy is that the successor is determined by inheritance and that popularity with the public is irrelevant?

    If we start to insist on Monarchs being popular we would be well on our way to an elected presidency.

    As an asids, I think Charles will be perfectly popular but have a different style. Nothing wrong with that.
  • @PlatoSaid Prime video works fine on my Android OnePlus 3 as well on my Samsung Smart TV.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,111
    Nigelb said:

    glw said:

    If they are called to perform such duty, you have to acknowledge that there is a high chance of mistakes. Hence, they should only be used when you can be fairly sure (not certain) that the risk they are on the streets to prevent is greater than the risks from mistakes.

    Much of the above depends on the type of emergency as well: if it is one where the population is in favour of them being there, the risks are much reduced over a NI-style situation.

    The problem I have is that in the mainland UK we can only go from the use of a relatively small number of specialist police to calling out the army. There's no intermediate step in the escalation, if there is a national crisis it will be troops on the streets. Now I don't think that would be a catastrophe, but it would be better if we had some non-military option when we need more than a few thousand armed police.
    Do we really need such an increase in capacity ?
    We managed to police the Olympics without any obvious hitch; we haven't suffered any 'spectaculars' in recent years; the effectiveness of armed police against a heavy goods vehicle incident in minimal.
    Our resources are best kept in intelligence, which appears to be quite effective.
    And as rcs points out, just having that extra capacity is likely to lead to accidents.

    That the police force itself might have been run down too much in recent years, thanks to funding cuts, is another matter... a bit like the 'peace dividend'
    Security at the Olympics cost us a fortune - a figure of billions comes to mind, but might be wrong. It was far from 'normal' security.
  • Alexander was a playboy prince too.
  • Sandpit said:

    The Grand Tour - after six episodes all the smutty non-BBC jokes finally come out. Well I say they come out, they're not homosexual or anything though.

    Not one to watch with the young kids!


    I was once asked by a young nephew to read a motor magazine to him as his 'bedtime story' - I very quickly realised I'd have to do some robust Bowdlerisation as I went along as more than a few of the metaphors were inappropriate for a 6 year old.....
  • So was Demetrius Poliorcetes, now I come to think of it.
  • The names and photos of the two Italian policemen involved in the fatal shooting of the presumed Berlin terrorist have been published. Madness.
  • glwglw Posts: 10,298
    Nigelb said:

    Do we really need such an increase in capacity ?
    We managed to police the Olympics without any obvious hitch; we haven't suffered any 'spectaculars' in recent years; the effectiveness of armed police against a heavy goods vehicle incident in minimal.
    Our resources are best kept in intelligence, which appears to be quite effective.
    And as rcs points out, just having that extra capacity is likely to lead to accidents.

    That the police force itself might have been run down too much in recent years, thanks to funding cuts, is another matter... a bit like the 'peace dividend'.

    Those are fair points, the problem is we don't really know how we will cope until we face a similar situation to France. The Olympics were a large security operation, but across a few sites, how would we cope if we had to guard hundreds or maybe even thousands of sites simultaneously. I'm no expert in this stuff, but it looks to me that central London is well provided for but much of the rest of the country would really struggle in a crisis.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,405
    edited December 2016
    We need a directly elected Monarch.

    If it's good enough for Naboo, then it's good enough for you.
  • Mr. Eagles, get thee gone, Satan.
  • PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Gardner
    #Berlin attack suspect Anis Amri's escape route was via hi-speed train thru France to Turin then regional train to Milan. Stopped at 3am

    That's a very circuitous route. You don't just go from Germany to Turin by train via France - at least, not according to http://www.eurail.com/plan-your-trip/eurail-timetable - all the sensible routes I could find were via Switzerland.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    BBC News: "Germany 'relieved' by reports, Berlin official says".
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Alexander was a playboy prince too.

    And then there's Henry V

    ......And we understand him well,
    How he comes o'er us with our wilder days,
    Not measuring what use we made of them.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Gardner
    #Berlin attack suspect Anis Amri's escape route was via hi-speed train thru France to Turin then regional train to Milan. Stopped at 3am

    Interesting - if his aim was Milan (rather than just wandering about) a more direct route would be via Switzerland and Basel - but perhaps the Swiss have more robust checks....
    My experience though a decade old of Swiss borders is something. I used to drive there regularly, somehow ended up on Interpol check list (work colleague relative info) and always searched. Car was almost entirely dismantled once as coach parties gawped at the border.

    I'd presume they'd be hotter now than all those years ago.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Frank Gardner
    #Berlin attack suspect Anis Amri's escape route was via hi-speed train thru France to Turin then regional train to Milan. Stopped at 3am

    Grand Tour. (In the 18th century sense).
  • https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/23/labour-mps-must-isolate-themselves-from-jeremy-corbyn-says-report?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    The url speaks for itself. But note the final paragraph:

    "Ukip is not the only threat in Labour heartlands, and the report’s conclusions also warns: “Urban Labour MPs should keep an eye on Lib Dems.” "

    This is a warning urban Labour MPs would do well to heed. If there's one area where an SNP type of eruption could take place against Labour MPs, it's among super-disaffected Remainers.
  • It is interesting that Winston Churchill gave a running commentary on World War II to King George VI but Theresa May is unable to give a running commentary to the Queen on Brexit.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,375
    edited December 2016
    Mr. Rex, bit modern for me, but I shall take your word for it.

    Mr. Eagles, Naboo also had the gungans[sp].

    Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, agree on May. Cards close to the chest makes sense, to the public, but not to HM.
  • https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/23/labour-mps-must-isolate-themselves-from-jeremy-corbyn-says-report?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    The url speaks for itself. But note the final paragraph:

    "Ukip is not the only threat in Labour heartlands, and the report’s conclusions also warns: “Urban Labour MPs should keep an eye on Lib Dems.” "

    This is a warning urban Labour MPs would do well to heed. If there's one area where an SNP type of eruption could take place against Labour MPs, it's among super-disaffected Remainers.

    All the more so if it's obvious Labour aren't going to win.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    AndyJS said:

    BBC News: "Germany 'relieved' by reports, Berlin official says".

    Understatement of the day award.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    @PlatoSaid Prime video works fine on my Android OnePlus 3 as well on my Samsung Smart TV.

    It's really annoying - all my OS is current, tried every fix suggested and still get 'application error'.

    It's the only one that doesn't work.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    @Tissue_Price: Different King Charles. Assuming he reigns as King Charles, of course.

    I see there was actually a thread on this very subject years ago!

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2008/12/20/what-will-be-the-regnal-name-of-the-next-king/

    Thought he was planning to be George VII?
  • https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/23/labour-mps-must-isolate-themselves-from-jeremy-corbyn-says-report?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    The url speaks for itself. But note the final paragraph:

    "Ukip is not the only threat in Labour heartlands, and the report’s conclusions also warns: “Urban Labour MPs should keep an eye on Lib Dems.” "

    This is a warning urban Labour MPs would do well to heed. If there's one area where an SNP type of eruption could take place against Labour MPs, it's among super-disaffected Remainers.

    Those focus groups look very interesting.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    It is interesting that Winston Churchill gave a running commentary on World War II to King George VI but Theresa May is unable to give a running commentary to the Queen on Brexit.

    Now I normally disagree with you about Mrs May but I found that shocking (if the reports are correct). Dangerously close to Lèse-majesté I'd have thought.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    There are only about 20 seats where the LDs could pose a threat to Labour. Ironically, those seats were the one success story for Ed Miliband in 2015.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Ms Plato

    "Hotter now". I had no idea you had a thing for Swiss border guards.......
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278
    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
    Charles I suspect would be much better than people suspect. He has lived knowing he would be king for a very long time, and has seen how his mother has behaved to keep the institution popular. Of course, many other monarchies have long had traditions of abdication due to old age, and he might decide his reign should be short for the same reason, though it would be a big step away from his mother's preferences in such matters. Canada and Australia leaving at some point is probably inevitable, I don't really see Charles adding much to it really, even if it happens during his reign.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,994
    rcs1000 said:

    Worth noting that if the terrorist had been stopped by two regular police officers in the UK he could have killed them both and escaped.

    On the other hand, if police officers were equipped with guns in the UK, there would likely be a number of innocent people killed every year by accident. And there would - from time to time - be occasions when police shot unarmed fleeing suspects in the back.

    Like all things in life, it's a question of trade offs.
    Exactly , we the public are far safer if most of them do not have guns.
  • It is interesting that Winston Churchill gave a running commentary on World War II to King George VI but Theresa May is unable to give a running commentary to the Queen on Brexit.

    Now I normally disagree with you about Mrs May but I found that shocking (if the reports are correct). Dangerously close to Lèse-majesté I'd have thought.
    I could have understood if Mrs May had said 'Brexit is going to be very complex' but this really jarred

    'The Queen and the duke were said to have been looking forward to hearing more about Mrs May’s thoughts on Brexit. This may have included insights into her selections for the cabinet, including the appointment of Boris Johnson as foreign secretary.

    However, both were said to have been left disappointed, a source said.'


    I wonder if Mrs May got star struck?

    Or perhaps she doesn't have a clue apart from Brexit means Brexit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278

    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes. There is a hierarchy of aid by the military under the categorisation of Military Aid to the Civil Authorities. Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) would be the appropriate deployment in such a situation.

    https://gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk

    The army would likely do a good job, but there is a fundamental difference between a police constable upholding the law and maintaining public order, and a soldier who is trained to fight our enemies being drafted in to fill a gap. If we have no other option, then use the army, but it would probably be better if we didn't have to do so.
    Yep. The army don't have an illustrious history in acting as policemen; the roles are fundamentally different.
    .
    Reminds me of a Denzel Washington and Bruce Willis movie about terrorism in, I think, New York, and the army being called in to lock down and police the area. Bruce Willis was the army general and eventual bad guy, for torturing suspects and so on, but I always thought him a little harshly portrayed, in that IIRC his character made basically the same point you just have, in that he advised against sending in the army (we're a broadsword not a scalpel), that is himself, but was obviously overruled.
  • Completely O/T, but is anyone betting on the Christmas No.1? The Betfair market is suspended. I'm guessing that means someone already has it sewn up.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    edited December 2016

    We need a directly elected Monarch.

    If it's good enough for Naboo, then it's good enough for you.

    A long, long time ago
    In a galaxy far away
    Naboo was under an attack

    And I thought me and Qui-Gon Jinn
    Could talk the Federation in-
    To maybe cutting them a little slack

    But their response it didn't thrill us
    They locked the doors and tried to kill us
    We escaped from that gas
    And met Jar-Jar and Boss Nass
    We took a bongo from the scene
    And we went to Theed to see the Queen
    We all wound up on Tattooine
    That's where
    We found
    This boy

    Oh, my, my this here Anakin guy
    May be Vader some day later, now he's just a small fry
    And he left his home and kissed his mommy goodbye
    Saying soon I'm gonna be a Jedi
    Soon I'm gonna be a Jedi...
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    PlatoSaid said:

    SkyNews seems to be overwhelmed by hard news today.

    Gillian and Niall keep diverting into weather stories whilst Adam wibbled about homeless statistics.

    No mention of Malta hijacking at all bar a screen grab

    They've lost the plot wholesale.

    I'd understood you didn't watch Sky news as it didn't reflect your opinions. Try and keep it consistent.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278
    Pulpstar said:

    @MaxPB I doubt Charles will abdicate, the monarchy isn't a popularity contest :)

    It is, in terms of keeping the institution popular, but that has to be weighed against the cost of disposing of monarchs too easily in the dace of trivial unpopularity, so that it becomes a direct popularity contest.

    It's one reason Renly Baratheon's reasoning for declaring himself king was so destructive to the system.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,994
    PlatoSaid said:

    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes but we wouldn't be talking about a police constable, we would be talking about a robocop-type black-clad operative. No pointy hats and ello ello ellos.

    That's because that's essentially all we have, about 5,000 authorised firearms officers out of 120,000 police, or in that ballpark. I think we could do with a lot more, and including "regular" police for emergency situations where we potentially need to guard many, many locations simultaneously.
    And a great many officers won't do firearms training because of the post event witch-hunt against them.

    It's so out of balance.
    They do tend to kill lots of innocent people though, so is it any wonder.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,945
    edited December 2016
    FPT @PlatoSaid
    PlatoSaid said:

    This is most entertaining rattling

    Real Donald Trump
    Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!

    We are building two aircraft carriers. Unlike most other carriers they can only handle aircraft that can land vertically. The only two production fighter aircraft with that capability are the F35B and the Harrier variants. If Trump cancels the F35B (a variant of the F35) for shits and giggles then we will be left with our arse hanging in the wind.

    All the alternatives are hugely expensive (retrofitting moving cables and their power supply to the carriers to enable conventional aircraft to fly off them) or humiliating (buying back the Harriers we sold to the USMC!). It is bad enough we're running a taxi service for the US Marines but this would make things worse.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited December 2016
    welshowl said:

    Ms Plato

    "Hotter now". I had no idea you had a thing for Swiss border guards.......

    I'm very partial to all things Swiss. Their border guards were almost always marvellous specimens - fit, in nice uniforms and ultra polite to me even when taking the panels off my doors
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,826
    On the subject of arming the police...

    The police in Northern Ireland have been armed for many many years. And despite all the problems with policing in NI, one issue that hasn't come up is large numbers of the wrong people being shot during ordinary policing operations.

    The biggest barrier to arming the police on the mainland is that it would involve arming non-"specialist armed police" - no exotic semi-special forces training. So it would mean that someone in authority would have to take responsibility for that.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    edited December 2016

    It is interesting that Winston Churchill gave a running commentary on World War II to King George VI but Theresa May is unable to give a running commentary to the Queen on Brexit.

    Now I normally disagree with you about Mrs May but I found that shocking (if the reports are correct). Dangerously close to Lèse-majesté I'd have thought.
    a source said
    About a story four months old

    Gideon too busy raking in the $$$ to brief his Times friends in a timely manner?

    I think we should be told...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,456
    viewcode said:

    FPT @PlatoSaid

    PlatoSaid said:

    This is most entertaining rattling

    Real Donald Trump
    Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!

    We are building two aircraft carriers. Unlike most other carriers they can only handle aircraft that can land vertically. The only two production fighter aircraft with that capability are the F35B and the Harrier variants. If Trump cancels the F35B (a variant of the F35) for shits and giggles then we will be left with our arse hanging in the wind.

    All the alternatives are hugely expensive (retrofitting moving cables and their power supply to the carriers to enable conventional aircraft to fly off them) or humiliating (buying back the Harriers we sold to the USMC!). It is bad enough we're running a taxi service for the US Marines but this would make things worse.
    Blimey. We need to get Farage to go and have a word with him.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,994
    matt said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    SkyNews seems to be overwhelmed by hard news today.

    Gillian and Niall keep diverting into weather stories whilst Adam wibbled about homeless statistics.

    No mention of Malta hijacking at all bar a screen grab

    They've lost the plot wholesale.

    I'd understood you didn't watch Sky news as it didn't reflect your opinions. Try and keep it consistent.
    Mieow
  • PlatoSaid said:

    welshowl said:

    Ms Plato

    "Hotter now". I had no idea you had a thing for Swiss border guards.......

    taking the panels off my doors
    That's a new euphemism!

    'You're late dear?

    Yes, there was this Swiss Border Guard took the panels off my doors..."
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    PlatoSaid said:

    welshowl said:

    Ms Plato

    "Hotter now". I had no idea you had a thing for Swiss border guards.......

    I'm very partial to all things Swiss. Their border guards were almost always marvellous specimens - fit, in nice uniforms and ultra polite to me even when taking the panels off my doors
    Is that a euphemism?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    viewcode said:

    FPT @PlatoSaid

    PlatoSaid said:

    This is most entertaining rattling

    Real Donald Trump
    Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!

    We are building two aircraft carriers. Unlike most other carriers they can only handle aircraft that can land vertically. The only two production fighter aircraft with that capability are the F35B and the Harrier variants. If Trump cancels the F35B (a variant of the F35) for shits and giggles then we will be left with our arse hanging in the wind.

    All the alternatives are hugely expensive (retrofitting moving cables and their power supply to the carriers to enable conventional aircraft to fly off them) or humiliating (buying back the Harriers we sold to the USMC!). It is bad enough we're running a taxi service for the US Marines but this would make things worse.
    I think you're making the classic error of taking Trump LITERALLY, not figuratively.

    He's saying publicly that defence contractors are on warning to stop taking the piss.

    It's an unfiltered shot at those who've used US tax payers as patsies to subsidise their other commercial contracts.

    Look at the sentiment behind his tweets, not the literal words and you'll get it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278
    Can monarchs pick any rental name, or have to use one of their various christian names, even if not their primary one?

    Because I'm sick of all these George's and Edward's. And think of poor Henry's - they had before we had any george's, and none since. And what of Stephen? Doesn't sound like a kingly name at all they have avoided it ever since.

    I'd go with Cnut, Aethelstan or something Scottish.
  • kle4 said:

    Can monarchs pick any rental name

    That is, I assume, a gorgeous auto-correct! :)
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Charles said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    welshowl said:

    Ms Plato

    "Hotter now". I had no idea you had a thing for Swiss border guards.......

    I'm very partial to all things Swiss. Their border guards were almost always marvellous specimens - fit, in nice uniforms and ultra polite to me even when taking the panels off my doors
    Is that a euphemism?
    Alas, as a faithful , luvved up wife - I was just window-shopping :smiley:
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,375
    edited December 2016
    Mr. kle4, if King Stephen hadn't been a merciful man, England would've fallen to France.

    He spared the life of the very young hostage William Marshal. When King John finally did the decent thing and died, it was William Marshal that reconquered the half of England that had fallen to France.

    Athelwulf sound's pretty cool. Mind you, the last King of York was Erik Bloodaxe.

    Edited extra bit: sounds*.

    I am now off to commit ritual suicide.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278

    kle4 said:

    Can monarchs pick any rental name

    That is, I assume, a gorgeous auto-correct! :)
    Admitting an error is anathema on the internet, so no!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278
    welshowl said:

    Ms Plato

    "Hotter now". I had no idea you had a thing for Swiss border guards.......

    Next year's top cosplay outfit?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,945
    kle4 said:

    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes. There is a hierarchy of aid by the military under the categorisation of Military Aid to the Civil Authorities. Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) would be the appropriate deployment in such a situation.

    https://gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk

    The army would likely do a good job, but there is a fundamental difference between a police constable upholding the law and maintaining public order, and a soldier who is trained to fight our enemies being drafted in to fill a gap. If we have no other option, then use the army, but it would probably be better if we didn't have to do so.
    Yep. The army don't have an illustrious history in acting as policemen; the roles are fundamentally different.
    .
    Reminds me of a Denzel Washington and Bruce Willis movie about terrorism in, I think, New York, and the army being called in to lock down and police the area. Bruce Willis was the army general and eventual bad guy, for torturing suspects and so on, but I always thought him a little harshly portrayed, in that IIRC his character made basically the same point you just have, in that he advised against sending in the army (we're a broadsword not a scalpel), that is himself, but was obviously overruled.
    * The function of an army is to kill people from other countries
    * The function of a police force[1] is to control people from this country without killing them.

    [1] I know, I know, police service, whateva...

  • kle4 said:

    Can monarchs pick any rental name, or have to use one of their various christian names, even if not their primary one?

    Because I'm sick of all these George's and Edward's. And think of poor Henry's - they had before we had any george's, and none since. And what of Stephen? Doesn't sound like a kingly name at all they have avoided it ever since.

    I'd go with Cnut, Aethelstan or something Scottish.

    The regnal name Charles chooses should be something that accurately reflects the population of the United Kingdom.

    So he should go for King Mohammed
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 75,867
    viewcode said:

    FPT @PlatoSaid

    PlatoSaid said:

    This is most entertaining rattling

    Real Donald Trump
    Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!

    We are building two aircraft carriers. Unlike most other carriers they can only handle aircraft that can land vertically. The only two production fighter aircraft with that capability are the F35B and the Harrier variants. If Trump cancels the F35B (a variant of the F35) for shits and giggles then we will be left with our arse hanging in the wind.

    All the alternatives are hugely expensive (retrofitting moving cables and their power supply to the carriers to enable conventional aircraft to fly off them) or humiliating (buying back the Harriers we sold to the USMC!). It is bad enough we're running a taxi service for the US Marines but this would make things worse.
    The Harriers are obsolete, so pretty pointless getting them back.
    The catapult/not catapult messing around has already cost us a few billion. Given the cost and risk of the naval VTOL F35 variant, it was a stupid decision not to opt for catapult capacity, particularly as that would have significantly increased the range and effectiveness of the F35 (if we ever get it), and/or allowed for a dozen other options.

    Defence procurement has been a mess for decades. (Don't get me started on our battlefield armoured capacity...) We ought to contract it out to the Swedish procurement agency, which is about as good as it gets.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278

    kle4 said:

    Can monarchs pick any rental name, or have to use one of their various christian names, even if not their primary one?

    Because I'm sick of all these George's and Edward's. And think of poor Henry's - they had before we had any george's, and none since. And what of Stephen? Doesn't sound like a kingly name at all they have avoided it ever since.

    I'd go with Cnut, Aethelstan or something Scottish.

    The regnal name Charles chooses should be something that accurately reflects the population of the United Kingdom.

    So he should go for King Mohammed
    Sure, he could go by Mo if people have a problem.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Can monarchs pick any rental name, or have to use one of their various christian names, even if not their primary one?

    Because I'm sick of all these George's and Edward's. And think of poor Henry's - they had before we had any george's, and none since. And what of Stephen? Doesn't sound like a kingly name at all they have avoided it ever since.

    I'd go with Cnut, Aethelstan or something Scottish.

    The regnal name Charles chooses should be something that accurately reflects the population of the United Kingdom.

    So he should go for King Mohammed
    Sure, he could go by Mo if people have a problem.
    Plus Mo also has Olympian connotations.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
    I disagree. Charles may have some odd ideas and a messy love life but he is conscientious. Remember Edward VII was widely written off before he became King, but he worked hard, became if anything more popular than his mother and was very effective in some fields, especially in foreign affairs.
    Well Charles has a lot to prove, I hope he is up to it as well.
    Charles's biggest problem will be pretending he shares his mum's interest in horseracing for all five days of Royal Ascot.
    I'm not so sure, racing apart and polo in Charles' case, he very much takes after his mother in having absolutely zero interest in sports generally.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    At the 2015 local elections held on the same day as the general election, Labour didn't contest 7 of the 29 wards in the Copeland constituency. It must be relatively unusual for the party holding a seat not to contest that many wards.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
    I disagree. Charles may have some odd ideas and a messy love life but he is conscientious. Remember Edward VII was widely written off before he became King, but he worked hard, became if anything more popular than his mother and was very effective in some fields, especially in foreign affairs.
    Well Charles has a lot to prove, I hope he is up to it as well.
    Charles's biggest problem will be pretending he shares his mum's interest in horseracing for all five days of Royal Ascot.
    I'm not so sure, racing apart and polo in Charles' case, he very much takes after his mother in having absolutely zero interest in sports generally.
    Well, ever since royals were no longer allowed to hunt the most dangerous game, man, can any sport really compensate?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,226
    Nigelb said:


    The catapult/not catapult messing around has already cost us a few billion. Given the cost and risk of the naval VTOL F35 variant, it was a stupid decision not to opt for catapult capacity, particularly as that would have significantly increased the range and effectiveness of the F35 (if we ever get it), and/or allowed for a dozen other options.

    CATOBAR ops were never a viable option for the RN FAA as it triples the manning requirement of the air wing and the RN would have no way of qualifying pilots due a lack of a CATOBAR capable training aircraft.

    Its STOVL or nothing for UK fixed wing naval air.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited December 2016
    @ViewCode

    "... hugely expensive (retrofitting moving cables and their power supply to the carriers to enable conventional aircraft to fly off them) or humiliating (buying back the Harriers we sold to the USMC!)."

    If memory serves, when the Coalition first came to power they looked seriously at converting the two QE class ships, then just starting to be built, into proper Cats and Traps carriers. The ability to do so was in the original design spec but to save money it had been quietly forgotten. I can't remember all of the published details of the study but essentially it was decided to be impossible to do the conversion. The fitting of an angled deck, catapults, upgrading the power systems installing arrestor wires etc. would have meant a complete redesign of the ships. So massive costs, massive delays to ships that were already late (due MoD incompetence and Gordon Brown repeatedly cutting the budget) - the original plan was for at least the first of them to be in service in 2012.

    To try and do such retro fitting now that the QE is in the water and about to start sea trials and the PoW nearing completion would be a complete non-starter.

    The alternative of buying back the Harriers also wouldn't work. I don't think many of them still exist for a start (having been canibalised for spares) and in any case they were the ground attack variant and no damn use as fighters. So would provide no sea power or means of fleet defence. The Sea Harriers, which could do both as per the Falklands, were scrapped in 2006.

    So if Trump does scrap the F35B we would be left with two massive, but defenceless, helicopter carriers, which we don't need and almost the entire warfighting capability of the RN would have been sacrificed to provide.

    The moral of the story is not to try to build capability on the cheap. For some value of cheap. Given the price of the carriers and the aircraft to fly off them we probably would have been better off building proper carriers from the outset.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,945
    kle4 said:

    Can monarchs pick any rental [sic] name?

    Yes.

  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Charles was summed up for me rather too closely here. I don't trust him.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqzdd8RUbIs
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,945
    PlatoSaid said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT @PlatoSaid

    PlatoSaid said:

    This is most entertaining rattling

    Real Donald Trump
    Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!

    We are building two aircraft carriers. Unlike most other carriers they can only handle aircraft that can land vertically. The only two production fighter aircraft with that capability are the F35B and the Harrier variants. If Trump cancels the F35B (a variant of the F35) for shits and giggles then we will be left with our arse hanging in the wind.

    All the alternatives are hugely expensive (retrofitting moving cables and their power supply to the carriers to enable conventional aircraft to fly off them) or humiliating (buying back the Harriers we sold to the USMC!). It is bad enough we're running a taxi service for the US Marines but this would make things worse.
    I think you're making the classic error of taking Trump LITERALLY, not figuratively.

    He's saying publicly that defence contractors are on warning to stop taking the piss.

    It's an unfiltered shot at those who've used US tax payers as patsies to subsidise their other commercial contracts.

    Look at the sentiment behind his tweets, not the literal words and you'll get it.
    If the last 18 months have taught me anything, it's to take people seriously when they say what they are going to do.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022
    viewcode said:

    FPT @PlatoSaid

    PlatoSaid said:

    This is most entertaining rattling

    Real Donald Trump
    Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!

    We are building two aircraft carriers. Unlike most other carriers they can only handle aircraft that can land vertically. The only two production fighter aircraft with that capability are the F35B and the Harrier variants. If Trump cancels the F35B (a variant of the F35) for shits and giggles then we will be left with our arse hanging in the wind.

    All the alternatives are hugely expensive (retrofitting moving cables and their power supply to the carriers to enable conventional aircraft to fly off them) or humiliating (buying back the Harriers we sold to the USMC!). It is bad enough we're running a taxi service for the US Marines but this would make things worse.
    The only stipulations we made about the carriers was that they were to be built in Gordon Brown's constituency, and that construction was underway before the 2010 election!

    The 2010- SDSR then had a number of conversations about whether we should fit them with 'cats and traps' that would allow conventional planes to fly from them, as well as the developmental F35Bs, eventually deciding that it wasn't worth the cost.

    Fast forward six years, and the F35 project is more than $100bn (!) over budget and still not close to being operational. If the incoming President actually cancels the USAF order - rather than shout about procurement - then we are up the proverbial creek, md had better dust off the old Harrier plans as nothing else can fly from the carriers, retrofitting cats and traps to fly something like F18 is thought to be impossible as a bigger power plant would be needed.

    It's a big bloody mess!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278
    3 minutes in

    "I want to do something about Europe before I go"

    Twas ever thus.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,440
    FPT
    viewcode said:


    rcs1000 said:




    Perhaps Dave believed the Leavers that Brexit would be easy.

    Said precisely no-one, ever.
    John Redwood: Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards in any negotiation

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/07/17/getting-out-of-the-eu-can-be-quick-and-easy-the-uk-holds-most-of-the-cards-in-any-negotiation/
    John Redwood, sadly, does not understand what "WTO rules" means.
    Whether or not he does understand them, I am interested to know where his argument falls down around his references to WTO rules?
    Whereas I realise that you think Brexit is a good thing, you've got to admit that if it's reached the point of "it's OK: John Redwood has a plan", then things have gone horribly wrong...

    No, not at all. It reminded me I used to read Redwood's blog quite regularly, and probably should do again. He writes very clearly and cogently on economic matters - though it has to be said he doesn't begin or end his blogs very well, they seem to just stop rather than conclude.

    RCS dismissed his statements on WTO rules, but either didn't see or didn't wish to answer my follow up question about what Redwood actually said that was wrong, so as far as I am concerned Redwood's comments still stand.

    As for it being a plan, it isn't a plan. It is an argument that Britain's negotiating position is strong, which as a net loser both in trade and in funding arrangements currently, should be obvious.

    It is a great pity that Redwood isn't in the Government. It's one of the signs that her conversion to Brexit may be a facade in my opinion. Of the Brexiteers she has on board, I only really have time for Davis. Liam Fox is on his last chance and will never make serious waves. Boris' views flap about like a windsock and he depends on May entirely to keep him as Foreign Sec.



  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 45,111
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT @PlatoSaid

    PlatoSaid said:

    This is most entertaining rattling

    Real Donald Trump
    Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!

    We are building two aircraft carriers. Unlike most other carriers they can only handle aircraft that can land vertically. The only two production fighter aircraft with that capability are the F35B and the Harrier variants. If Trump cancels the F35B (a variant of the F35) for shits and giggles then we will be left with our arse hanging in the wind.

    All the alternatives are hugely expensive (retrofitting moving cables and their power supply to the carriers to enable conventional aircraft to fly off them) or humiliating (buying back the Harriers we sold to the USMC!). It is bad enough we're running a taxi service for the US Marines but this would make things worse.
    The Harriers are obsolete, so pretty pointless getting them back.
    The catapult/not catapult messing around has already cost us a few billion. Given the cost and risk of the naval VTOL F35 variant, it was a stupid decision not to opt for catapult capacity, particularly as that would have significantly increased the range and effectiveness of the F35 (if we ever get it), and/or allowed for a dozen other options.

    Defence procurement has been a mess for decades. (Don't get me started on our battlefield armoured capacity...) We ought to contract it out to the Swedish procurement agency, which is about as good as it gets.
    The carriers and their capabilities are oft-visited topics on here. Like many things, it's all Labours fault. ?Hoon? said that they had decided to go without CATOBAR (catapult and traps), but the carriers were being designed so they could be retrofitted with them later.

    Years later, when the F35B project looked risky, and the carriers had been designed, the coalition went to BAE and asked them to look into fitting CATOBAR. It turns out the requirement for retrofitting the equipment had not been worked on for years, and there were many issues. AIUI lack of electrical power, deck heights and available spaces were two major ones.

    Hoon really was disastrous for the military.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    viewcode said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT @PlatoSaid

    PlatoSaid said:

    This is most entertaining rattling

    Real Donald Trump
    Based on the tremendous cost and cost overruns of the Lockheed Martin F-35, I have asked Boeing to price-out a comparable F-18 Super Hornet!

    We are building two aircraft carriers. Unlike most other carriers they can only handle aircraft that can land vertically. The only two production fighter aircraft with that capability are the F35B and the Harrier variants. If Trump cancels the F35B (a variant of the F35) for shits and giggles then we will be left with our arse hanging in the wind.

    All the alternatives are hugely expensive (retrofitting moving cables and their power supply to the carriers to enable conventional aircraft to fly off them) or humiliating (buying back the Harriers we sold to the USMC!). It is bad enough we're running a taxi service for the US Marines but this would make things worse.
    I think you're making the classic error of taking Trump LITERALLY, not figuratively.

    He's saying publicly that defence contractors are on warning to stop taking the piss.

    It's an unfiltered shot at those who've used US tax payers as patsies to subsidise their other commercial contracts.

    Look at the sentiment behind his tweets, not the literal words and you'll get it.
    If the last 18 months have taught me anything, it's to take people seriously when they say what they are going to do.
    And so take Trump seriously - not literally. It's very clear and has been for over a year how he uses language. Getting all humpy by taking him literally adds nothing, but makes the politically outraged feel better.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    edited December 2016
    Deleted
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,331
    @TSE

    I'd prefer something a bit more traditional like Wulfgar, Gorfydydd, or Boroncinus.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Mr Eagles, if Charles wants a royal name with Olympian connotations he could always call himself Anne...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278

    FPT

    viewcode said:


    rcs1000 said:




    Perhaps Dave believed the Leavers that Brexit would be easy.

    Said precisely no-one, ever.
    John Redwood: Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards in any negotiation

    http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/07/17/getting-out-of-the-eu-can-be-quick-and-easy-the-uk-holds-most-of-the-cards-in-any-negotiation/
    John Redwood, sadly, does not understand what "WTO rules" means.
    Whether or not he does understand them, I am interested to know where his argument falls down around his references to WTO rules?
    Whereas I realise that you think Brexit is a good thing, you've got to admit that if it's reached the point of "it's OK: John Redwood has a plan", then things have gone horribly wrong...

    It's one of the signs that her conversion to Brexit may be a facade in my opinion.

    That would depend on what you mean by facade I think. She was officially Remain and so publicly on the record that staying in would have been preferable, so unless she says she was lying or mistaken before, the only option open to her is to say she is committed to making Brexit the best Brexit there is, and we shall do fantastically, while conveniently not mentioning she apparently thought we'd do more fantastically within the EU. She's converted to Brexit happening, because it must for her politically let alone democracy, but that doesn't mean her official position from before has been repudiated.

  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    O_o

    AFP
    Anis Amri: small-time criminal turned Berlin truck killer, believed to have been radicalised in an Italian prison https://t.co/10hPmmlkDI https://t.co/tsbzQunCXD
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,945
    Nigelb said:



    The Harriers are obsolete, so pretty pointless getting them back....Defence procurement has been a mess for decades...We ought to contract it out to the Swedish procurement agency, which is about as good as it gets.

    If we can't get F35B's, what's left? We going to start fitting Sidewinders and ASRAAMs to Merlins?

    Pause

    Thinks.

    Can we do that? Use helicopters as air-to-air launching platforms?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,278
    Sean_F said:

    @TSE

    I'd prefer something a bit more traditional like Wulfgar, Gorfydydd, or Boroncinus.

    Let;s go back to the original Brits fighting against Europeans - Prasutargus .

    Fun fact, my original attempt at spelling Prasutargus - Prasatargus, I was autocorrected to Taramasalata. But Prasutargus suggests Outargues.
  • Sean_F said:

    @TSE

    I'd prefer something a bit more traditional like Wulfgar, Gorfydydd, or Boroncinus.

    The first two are characters created by Tolkein and the last surely is a dinosaur?
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