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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big picture is that Labour still has a majority winning

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    antifrank said:

    I too think that One Nation Labour was a good idea. But Ed Miliband didn't have the courage to follow through all the necessary implications of such an idea, which is why it has been sidelined.

    Have we had Producers vs Predators recently? That one provided a lot of fun.
    Ed has stripped off the barnacles and combined that policy with his new approach on immigration, it's now Aliens vs Predators.
    Whoever wins, we lose?? sums it up....
    It's One Nation - just not this one.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    antifrank said:

    I too think that One Nation Labour was a good idea. But Ed Miliband didn't have the courage to follow through all the necessary implications of such an idea, which is why it has been sidelined.

    One Nation Labour in concept has already been tried. It's New Labour. It's everything that Tony Blair stood for, before he became a neo-Con. It's also a philosophy which Miliband has been running from ever since he started campaigning for the Labour leadership. That's why he's not mentioned it: the core idea is incompatible with everything else he's been doing.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    That's why he's not mentioned it: the core idea is incompatible with everything else he's been doing.

    But he did mention it. He made a speech all about it. We're still talking about it.
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939


    Yeah, global warming. Where scientists predicted we'd almost never have snow. And that summers be hot. Or wet. And then hot again. If scientists can't predict a weather/climate trend for 5-10 years in the future how we have confidence they can do it for centuries?

    He also commits the classic error of failing to identify and attack his opponents' actual and best arguments.

    Sceptics commonly oppose climate activists because whether they are right or not the aim of a "green" energy policy is to make fuel more expensive so we'll use less of it.

    This is absolutely guaranteed to kill the old and the weak. It is not an oversight or an unforeseeable consequence.

    A lot of projection going on in that Hundal nonsense.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited July 2013
    @Next That's one of the strongest arguments against Ed Miliband. He's shown courage on the things that run with the grain of his ideology (for example, on press abuses). But the things that are uncomfortable for traditional social democrats, such as the need to discuss how to manage competing social interests in thin years, has proved too difficult for him to do. True One Nation Labour would have explained the sacrifices that interest groups sympathetic to Labour would need to make as well as what they could expect to receive. As a result, he doesn't look like a leader but a protester.

    @RichardNabavi That was Ed Miliband's silliest idea, and best answered by a quotation from Solzhenitsyn:

    "If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983


    This is absolutely guaranteed to kill the old and the weak.

    If only something could be done about the infirm then our work here would be done.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Must say I agree with UKIP:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23355533

    "But the UK Independence Party said half of the single-sex golf clubs in the UK admitted only female members and accused Mrs Miller and Mr Salmond of "political grandstanding"."

    Why the outrage at male-only membership clubs not female-only membership clubs?

    It'd be amusing if it weren't so biased. You can't argue against sexism, but only when it penalises women.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. Bond, another point is that cutting global carbon emissions also requires emerging nations (including rapidly industrialising countries like China) to stand still. As well as being morally indefensible, it's entirely unrealistic.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351

    Cameron vs Milliband ... Foppish amateur vs charmless wonk.

    Now Labour are complaining because the fops are becoming professional and they are stuck with the charmless wonk.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    "If only something could be done about the infirm then our work here would be done."

    That that made me laugh, Neil.
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    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    @Josias
    The Crosby stuff is largely about Camerons character, what sort of man he is, who he appoints, what his priorities are.

    Ed Milliband appointed Phil Woolas after the allegations were tabled. Does that speak to "what sort of man he is, who he appoints, what his priorities are"?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    LibDems Finally Withdraw Whip From David "The Jews" Ward guyfawk.es/1brvOoT
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939

    Mr. Bond, another point is that cutting global carbon emissions also requires emerging nations (including rapidly industrialising countries like China) to stand still. As well as being morally indefensible, it's entirely unrealistic.

    Agree there are practical objections as well as moral. The moral ones matter most to me, because they crystallise the Pascal's Wager nature of what's being argued for, and its costs.

    The fact that none of the predictions are accurate and that the activist movement behaves like the church i the fifteenth century are concerns too, but less so. The issue for me is that even if they're right, they're wrong.
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    Yes the Conservatives have a mountain to cover but they do have a lot of MPs benefiting from 1st time incumbency at the next GE. Makes it harder for Labour to win seats.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Meanwhile back in the real world retail sales up by 0.2% but bank lending to business down by £4.5bn

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/business-news-markets-live/10187167/Business-news-and-markets-live.html
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    tim said:

    @Josias

    The Crosby stuff is largely about Camerons character, what sort of man he is, who he appoints, what his priorities are.

    Priority in appointing an election strategist: Winning the election
    Who he appoints: Someone good at helping him win the next election

    Labour really are being stupid here, even in their own terms. Of course they are gagging for the Big Smear later in the year, but this just muddies the waters, making it look as though they throw smears around entirely at random.
    Yes - I notice Ed has been rather keen to shout a certain man's name during PMQ's - but not a certain lady. Ed hoping guilty is nailed on ?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,013
    Mr. Bond, an aside on Pascal's Wager:

    isn't it the most stupid bet imaginable? Because even if there is a God, it assumes God is a moron who can't tell when someone's faking it as a celestial insurance policy.

    I agree with you regarding the human-centric approach of the true believers. Just as Churchmen of the Middle Ages assumed we *must* be at the centre of the universe, so do some attribute any and all changes in the climate to our activities. The climate's always changed.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    Neil said:

    That's why he's not mentioned it: the core idea is incompatible with everything else he's been doing.

    But he did mention it [One Nation Labour]. He made a speech all about it. We're still talking about it.
    OK. Hasn't mentioned it *this year*. And we're only talking about it (1) because we're political obsessives and remember these things and (2) because of how his other actions have run entirely contrary to that slogan.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Meanwhile back in the real world retail sales up by 0.2% but bank lending to business down by £4.5bn

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/business-news-markets-live/10187167/Business-news-and-markets-live.html

    Is lending from non-bank sources increasing / decreasing ?
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    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Must say I agree with UKIP:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23355533

    "But the UK Independence Party said half of the single-sex golf clubs in the UK admitted only female members and accused Mrs Miller and Mr Salmond of "political grandstanding"."

    Why the outrage at male-only membership clubs not female-only membership clubs?

    It'd be amusing if it weren't so biased. You can't argue against sexism, but only when it penalises women.


    Harman's a hypocrite. She introduced female only short lists.

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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    (2) because of how his other actions have run entirely contrary to that slogan.

    The slogan was so vacuous that anyone could make a strong case for any of his actions being entirely consistent with it or entirely contrary to it.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    I don't know if this has already been posted but it's spot on. The mindless howling that lefties come out with when someone disagrees with them is certainly a characteristic of the breed.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100227068/five-reasons-why-left-wingers-are-pure-evil/
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    Plato said:

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    LibDems Finally Withdraw Whip From David "The Jews" Ward guyfawk.es/1brvOoT

    Is there something that Lib Dem MPs eat or drink that creates so many anti-jewish MPs?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3421669.stm

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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Must say I agree with UKIP:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23355533

    "But the UK Independence Party said half of the single-sex golf clubs in the UK admitted only female members and accused Mrs Miller and Mr Salmond of "political grandstanding"."

    Why the outrage at male-only membership clubs not female-only membership clubs?

    It'd be amusing if it weren't so biased. You can't argue against sexism, but only when it penalises women.


    Harman's a hypocrite. She introduced female only short lists.

    Yes but they were open to men - like Mr Dromey.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    Blue_rog said:

    I don't know if this has already been posted but it's spot on. The mindless howling that lefties come out with when someone disagrees with them is certainly a characteristic of the breed.

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100227068/five-reasons-why-left-wingers-are-pure-evil/

    I believe its a reaction piece to Sunny Hundal who came out with the bizzare 'tories are evil' piece this week.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Neil said:

    That's why he's not mentioned it: the core idea is incompatible with everything else he's been doing.

    But he did mention it [One Nation Labour]. He made a speech all about it. We're still talking about it.
    OK. Hasn't mentioned it *this year*.
    And that seems to be something of a myth that has just sprung up here, today. It's not actually true:

    http://www.labour.org.uk/one-nation-politics-speech
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,012
    Confusion in court over Alan Greaves verdict:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23360103
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    TGOHF said:

    Must say I agree with UKIP:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23355533

    "But the UK Independence Party said half of the single-sex golf clubs in the UK admitted only female members and accused Mrs Miller and Mr Salmond of "political grandstanding"."

    Why the outrage at male-only membership clubs not female-only membership clubs?

    It'd be amusing if it weren't so biased. You can't argue against sexism, but only when it penalises women.


    Harman's a hypocrite. She introduced female only short lists.

    Yes but they were open to men - like Mr Dromey.
    This transparent attempt to wind me up wont work!!!
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    TGOHF said:

    Meanwhile back in the real world retail sales up by 0.2% but bank lending to business down by £4.5bn

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/business-news-markets-live/10187167/Business-news-and-markets-live.html

    Is lending from non-bank sources increasing / decreasing ?
    DT not quoting any stats. Drop in lending appears to be mostly due to large businesses rather than SMEs.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    @Neil They're just winding you up.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    Neil said:

    TGOHF said:

    Must say I agree with UKIP:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23355533

    "But the UK Independence Party said half of the single-sex golf clubs in the UK admitted only female members and accused Mrs Miller and Mr Salmond of "political grandstanding"."

    Why the outrage at male-only membership clubs not female-only membership clubs?

    It'd be amusing if it weren't so biased. You can't argue against sexism, but only when it penalises women.


    Harman's a hypocrite. She introduced female only short lists.

    Yes but they were open to men - like Mr Dromey.
    This transparent attempt to wind me up wont work!!!
    open to men like Mr Harman ? ;-)
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    @TGOHF @Jonathan @Alanbrooke

    It's the lack of respect for Andrea's authority on all matters selection that really gets to me ;)
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Plato said:

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    LibDems Finally Withdraw Whip From David "The Jews" Ward guyfawk.es/1brvOoT

    Is there something that Lib Dem MPs eat or drink that creates so many anti-jewish MPs?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3421669.stm

    Strange - a bit like Europhilia it is the exact opposite of the stance you would expect a real Liberal party to have.

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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,090
    AveryLP said:

    Best headline of yesterday goes to The Guardian.

    http://bit.ly/13cGa6W

    Pamela Stephenson Connolly to the rescue.

    desperate
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Neil said:

    @TGOHF @Jonathan @Alanbrooke

    It's the lack of respect for Andrea's authority on all matters selection that really gets to me ;)

    Is the confusion regarding whether Mr Dromey is a man or not ? Confused..
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713
    tim said:

    @JohnRentoul: RT @BlindGazza Breaking news: Lib Dem MP David Ward has had the whip withdrawn until the autumn


    What's he going to do for the summer, not enough time to start his own golf club

    Wonder if he'll allow 'certain people' at his golf club...
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    TGOHF said:

    Plato said:

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    LibDems Finally Withdraw Whip From David "The Jews" Ward guyfawk.es/1brvOoT

    Is there something that Lib Dem MPs eat or drink that creates so many anti-jewish MPs?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3421669.stm

    Strange - a bit like Europhilia it is the exact opposite of the stance you would expect a real Liberal party to have.

    So 2013, and then a link from 2004. Twice in ten years seems a bit of a stretch to point as a pattern?

    Feel free to justify from first principles of political philosophy what a "Real Liberal" party would think of those issues.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    corporeal said:

    TGOHF said:

    Plato said:

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    LibDems Finally Withdraw Whip From David "The Jews" Ward guyfawk.es/1brvOoT

    Is there something that Lib Dem MPs eat or drink that creates so many anti-jewish MPs?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3421669.stm

    Strange - a bit like Europhilia it is the exact opposite of the stance you would expect a real Liberal party to have.

    So 2013, and then a link from 2004. Twice in ten years seems a bit of a stretch to point as a pattern?

    Feel free to justify from first principles of political philosophy what a "Real Liberal" party would think of those issues.
    Israel = only democracy in region.

    EU = elites ruling from above ignoring the demos.

    Seems obvious to me.
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    NextNext Posts: 826
    @tim

    house price inflation is a good thing rather than an economic and social disaster

    Agreed. But it was Brown who particularly stoked that social disaster as it made him look good (for a while).
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549
    TGOHF said:

    corporeal said:

    TGOHF said:

    Plato said:

    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    LibDems Finally Withdraw Whip From David "The Jews" Ward guyfawk.es/1brvOoT

    Is there something that Lib Dem MPs eat or drink that creates so many anti-jewish MPs?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3421669.stm

    Strange - a bit like Europhilia it is the exact opposite of the stance you would expect a real Liberal party to have.

    So 2013, and then a link from 2004. Twice in ten years seems a bit of a stretch to point as a pattern?

    Feel free to justify from first principles of political philosophy what a "Real Liberal" party would think of those issues.
    Israel = only democracy in region.

    EU = elites ruling from above ignoring the demos.

    Seems obvious to me.
    Whether Israel is a democracy or not is a separate question from whether you think it's actions towards the Palestinians are justifiable.

    For the EU, anything beyond arbitrary arguments about demos?
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    Re "the Tories have yet to find the magic bullet"

    I'm sure this has been said before, but isn't the Tories' "magic bullet" always in fact the Labour leader?

    Look at who they won against:

    Thatcher vs Callaghan
    Thatcher vs Foot
    Thatcher vs Kinnock
    Cameron vs Broon

    Look at who they lost to

    Major vs Blair.

    All obvious at the time.

    So in 2015, Cameron vs Miliband, what's the obvious outcome?

    To ask the question is to know the answer, surely?
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    Re "the Tories have yet to find the magic bullet"

    I'm sure this has been said before, but isn't the Tories' "magic bullet" always in fact the Labour leader?

    Look at who they won against:

    Thatcher vs Callaghan
    Thatcher vs Foot
    Thatcher vs Kinnock
    Cameron vs Broon

    Look at who they lost to

    Major vs Blair.

    All obvious at the time.

    So in 2015, Cameron vs Miliband, what's the obvious outcome?

    To ask the question is to know the answer, surely?

    No, to have hindsight is to know the answer.

    (And you skipped 1992).
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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939

    Just as Churchmen of the Middle Ages assumed we *must* be at the centre of the universe, so do some attribute any and all changes in the climate to our activities. The climate's always changed.

    And there's always been aeromancy - " divination conducted by interpreting atmospheric conditions... the practice is thought to have been used by the ancient Babylonian priests.".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeromancy

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    Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    corporeal said:



    (And you skipped 1992).

    Yes I did – mea maxima culpa, as they don’t say in the NHS. I was thinking of Kinnock losing twice, and forgetting that it was to different PMs.

    So – add Major vs Kinnock to the list, and does the hypothesis not still stand? The Tories’ magic bullet is the Labour leader?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422

    Re "the Tories have yet to find the magic bullet"

    I'm sure this has been said before, but isn't the Tories' "magic bullet" always in fact the Labour leader?

    Look at who they won against:

    Thatcher vs Callaghan
    Thatcher vs Foot
    Thatcher vs Kinnock
    Cameron vs Broon

    Look at who they lost to

    Major vs Blair.

    All obvious at the time.

    So in 2015, Cameron vs Miliband, what's the obvious outcome?

    To ask the question is to know the answer, surely?

    Not sure that's an iron rule?

    1966 Wilson v Heath - Labour landslide
    1970 Wilson v Heath - Conservative win
    1974F Wilson v Heath - Hung parliament
    1974O Wilson v Heath - Labour knife-edge win

    Four elections, same line up: four different results
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,012
    Trott goes just one short of the 100 partnership with Bell.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited July 2013
    Those who suggest that Labour's lead is too modest at this stage of the Parliament might care to recall the 74 - 79 Parliament.At that time Gallup was the most frequent pollster -in the Telegraph. From Autumn 77 - end of 78 the Tory lead was generally very narrow - often just 2%. It did spike upwards briefly in March 78 when Thatcher spoke of 'being swamped' by immigrants - though by Oct/Nov Labour was 5% ahead. It took the Winter of Discontent to give the Tories a commanding lead in Jan/Feb 79.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2013
    @tim

    I want the royal baby to remain an anachronism. The fact that its future is not so different from lots of other little princes and princesses who will be able to lord it over their less fortunate peers points to a profoundly dystopian vision of Britain’s future.

    A pity this wasn't the first paragraph as it would have saved the effort of reading the full FT article.

    The reason why rents have increased faster than inflation since the financial crisis is that property values have fallen below the rate of inflation.

    The reason that property prices have fallen below the rate of inflation is that Gordon Brown pumped up a property value boom which invevitably went bust.

    With a crash in property prices coinciding with banks going bust, the supply of credit to the housing market dried up.

    The financial crisis and property price crash caused private sector housing construction companies to stop building.

    Under the 1997-2010 Labour governments, in both good times and bad, less than 2% of all dwellings were constructed by local governments and around 10% by housing associations. The private sector accounted for 85 to 90% of supply. Without the private sector building no one was building.

    With no credit mortgage credit available, house prices in free fall and no construction activity the liquidity in the housing market collapsed. Householders needing to move refused to sell, rented instead and first time buyers were shut out by lack of available finance and constrained mortage terms. In particular, the requirements for low loan to value ratios, caused by new prudential regulation of bank lending, shut out buyers without the capital to pay 25% of value as a deposit.

    All the above problems had their causal roots in the profligacy of Brown's economic management in the early noughties.

    Osborne has no "bubble strategy". The bubble was blown up and burst by Brown. Osborne's intervention in the housing mortgage and construction markets is designed to reestablish liquidity in the housing markets, to halt and reverse the decline in property values and to support first time buyers by reducing the capital deposit barrier to house purchase.

    So far Osborne's polices have been very successful very quickly in meeting his defined goals. But a bubble it is not: the construction, house sales and mortgage market is still only operating at 60% of pre-crisis levels and property values have nowhere near recovered pre-crisis values.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,012
    The way I read it is that at present the Tories are favourite to win the popular vote in 2015, Labour the most seats.
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    corporealcorporeal Posts: 2,549

    corporeal said:



    (And you skipped 1992).

    Yes I did – mea maxima culpa, as they don’t say in the NHS. I was thinking of Kinnock losing twice, and forgetting that it was to different PMs.

    So – add Major vs Kinnock to the list, and does the hypothesis not still stand? The Tories’ magic bullet is the Labour leader?
    Take Callaghan vs Thatcher, that's a battle you're seeing very differently through hindsight and based on what happened later than it was at the time.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,012
    "A man has been jailed for a minimum of 30 years for murdering three generations of a family in a fire, including his six-month old baby on her first night home from hospital."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-23327218
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    I've got a big red against the draw. I don't think either team's batsmen are in particularly good nick, and the weather forecasts are good.
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    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 27,012
    edited July 2013
    Percentage changes in 2010:

    Con: +3.66%
    Lab: -6.47%
    LD: +0.92%
    Others: +1.90%

    So even in 2010 the increase in the share of Others was more than half the increase in the Tory share.
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    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    RodCrosby said:

    There was a long period here at PB when he was maligned on an almost daily basis by the usual suspects. In the long run, it turned out that Rod was right and they were wrong. I can't remember seeing many of them apologising.

    Four years IS a long time! That was the period during which I was abused and accused of being a Labour shill, simply for demonstrating that a Tory majority in 2010 was improbable. (For the record, I state again I have never voted Labour in my life, and most likely never will.)

    Now, my antenna are telling me Labour are in trouble. It seems the public's opinion of Miliband has crystallized into a thumbs-down. I expect Labour's polling position to weaken further and the Tories to win the popular vote in 2015. If Miliband becomes PM, it will be the cock-eyed electoral system which puts him in Downing Street and not the voters...

    Many thanks Rod. Duly noted. All the best.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,369
    If one has to choose, most of us would rather have a decent, normally stable lead in voting intention and a trailing leader than vice versa. That's particularly true when the issue is own party supporters, since they've decided to support you despite their reservations (and at present the reservations are often simply that they're desperate for him to win and aren't sure he will).

    Today's poll is based on the day when three newspapers were leading with the Tory attack on Labour's NHS record - the Mail very explicitly so. It appears to have had no impact whatever, presumably because the target audience of Labour voters and left LibDems are pretty Mail-immune.
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    VinnyVinny Posts: 48
    A very interesting article, Mike, but as we all know, it is the ICM poll that counts. As a betting man, I would place a few bob on Cameron sneaking more votes but Labour more seats. Not too far fetched?
This discussion has been closed.