The BBC does try to be gender-neutral at times. I was listening (briefly) to an "investigation" by R5L yesterday.
The shocking story of a 42-year-old man being killed by an uncaring NHS. He was demanding a hospital bed because he was anorexic and the beds were currently filled. They were condemning him to death by not doing what he demanded.
I admit to being less than sympathetic. He had the self-entitlement of a Premiership footballer but got a sympathetic hearing. How dare the NHS struggle to give him a bed? Throw out those terminal cancer patients so he can feel wanted (that last bit was my interpretation).
I admit that I'd have more sympathy for a thirteen-year-old girl.
As they say in Viz, I nearly put my foot through the radio and sent the bill to the BBC.
But your point about ignoring statistics is correct.
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
One person's non tariff barrier is another person's sovereignty.
And there in lies the rub.
The anti-globalisation protestors hate the fact that elected politicians lose the right to make laws as they see fit. Everyone says they support free trade, but what they mean is want other people to open up their markets.
And rule out subsidies for their local producers except...well their own local producers where there are compelling social reasons to keep the business going (Port Talbot comes to mind). I have given the example before of Japan claiming that their snow was different and that only the locally made skis were "safe".
The question is whether the trade offs in sovereignty or lack of local control in a NAFTA or an EU, especially an EU, are worth the undoubted gains they can bring. I think the answer being given worldwide is increasingly no and that we may have reached a turning point where an increase in free trade is no longer such a driver of world growth.
I agree with all of that.
The question is: if the world rows back on free trade as it did in the late 1920s, will it have the same terrible effect on the world economy?
Doesn't that rather depend on whether you accept the Kantian analysis i.e. that liberal democracies are the ones least likely to go to war with each other? What was missing in the 1930s was enough strongly based liberal democracies, certainly in Europe. The pressures of economic downturn were strong enough to uproot such recently created democracies as existed, with relatively rare exceptions.
The interesting question to my mind is whether liberal democracy is sufficiently entrenched now to withstand whatever economic / political storms are coming our way. I wish I were more confident on this point. There is a good article on this very point in the current issue of Standpoint magazine, for anyone interested.
Do you have a link to the article?
I also worry about whether or not liberal democracy will last. Not least because the centre of economic gravity is likely to shift over the coming decades to countries that are not.
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Miss Cyclefree, continually eroding free speech (from sources religious, governmental and delicate little flowers) has been happening for a while now. I'm unsurprised it's at risk. The attempts to ruin the press are also quite alarming.
The loyalty oath reminds me of Blairs dragging them to cash points policy.lasted a Sunday afternoon.When they have nothing sensible to say, why don't they just shut the f up.,Was surprised Osborne on Marr thought it was a good idea.Thought he had more nous than that.Politicians are certainly a different breed with no common sense sometimes.
What was it about Osborne's omnishambles budgets that made you think he had any common sense?
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
Maybe I am being thick because it is almost xmas but the sort of lack of integration that Casey's report discussed, at least according to media reports, was of people who lived with others from a very similar background and ethnicity and did not speak english, or ever leave their home/work places and basically almost never met people from English and other longer standing resident backgrounds. Examples included a set of streets in Bradford West.
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
The loyalty oath reminds me of Blairs dragging them to cash points policy.lasted a Sunday afternoon.When they have nothing sensible to say, why don't they just shut the f up.,Was surprised Osborne on Marr thought it was a good idea.Thought he had more nous than that.Politicians are certainly a different breed with no common sense sometimes.
What was it about Osborne's omnishambles budgets that made you think he had any common sense?
Wasn't Javid one of Osborne's key acolytes back in the glory days?
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
Maybe I am being thick because it is almost xmas but the sort of lack of integration that Casey's report discussed, at least according to media reports, was of people who lived with others from a very similar background and ethnicity and did not speak english, or ever leave their home/work places and basically almost never met people from English and other longer standing resident backgrounds. Examples included a set of streets in Bradford West.
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
The oath won't deal with matters such as this. Not letting into the country people who cannot speak English might, though.
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
Maybe I am being thick because it is almost xmas but the sort of lack of integration that Casey's report discussed, at least according to media reports, was of people who lived with others from a very similar background and ethnicity and did not speak english, or ever leave their home/work places and basically almost never met people from English and other longer standing resident backgrounds. Examples included a set of streets in Bradford West.
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
Surely it's precisely to tackle the Little Somalia or Bangladesh or wherever - if you want to be eligible to stand - you have to prove you're an advocate of integration and a personal example of it.
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
Maybe I am being thick because it is almost xmas but the sort of lack of integration that Casey's report discussed, at least according to media reports, was of people who lived with others from a very similar background and ethnicity and did not speak english, or ever leave their home/work places and basically almost never met people from English and other longer standing resident backgrounds. Examples included a set of streets in Bradford West.
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
One of the reasons I voted to remain in the EU was that the immigrant "pool" would be more likely to be culturally similiar and have a better probability of integration within our society. I know many many counterexamples outside the EU that prove the rule here, nevertheless it is certainly not EU migration that creates situations like the ones you've mentioned here !
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
Maybe I am being thick because it is almost xmas but the sort of lack of integration that Casey's report discussed, at least according to media reports, was of people who lived with others from a very similar background and ethnicity and did not speak english, or ever leave their home/work places and basically almost never met people from English and other longer standing resident backgrounds. Examples included a set of streets in Bradford West.
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
Surely it's precisely to tackle the Little Somalia or Bangladesh or wherever - if you want to be eligible to stand - you have to prove you're an advocate of integration and a personal example of it.
The point stands though since no one from those ghettos are going to stand for public office or work in the public sector. If it was rolled out to all citizens then it might make a difference, but that would be extremely contentious.
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
Maybe I am being thick because it is almost xmas but the sort of lack of integration that Casey's report discussed, at least according to media reports, was of people who lived with others from a very similar background and ethnicity and did not speak english, or ever leave their home/work places and basically almost never met people from English and other longer standing resident backgrounds. Examples included a set of streets in Bradford West.
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
Surely it's precisely to tackle the Little Somalia or Bangladesh or wherever - if you want to be eligible to stand - you have to prove you're an advocate of integration and a personal example of it.
Ukips Gerard Batten proposed something similar years ago, although his 'Muslim charter' was a bit more explicitly targeted I suppose.
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
Maybe I am being thick because it is almost xmas but the sort of lack of integration that Casey's report discussed, at least according to media reports, was of people who lived with others from a very similar background and ethnicity and did not speak english, or ever leave their home/work places and basically almost never met people from English and other longer standing resident backgrounds. Examples included a set of streets in Bradford West.
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
One of the reasons I voted to remain in the EU was that the immigrant "pool" would be more likely to be culturally similiar and have a better probability of integration within our society. I know many many counterexamples outside the EU that prove the rule here, nevertheless it is certainly not EU migration that creates situations like the ones you've mentioned here !
The EU immigrant 'pool' is becoming more 'vibrant and diverse' though.
Djl was impressed by Osborne recent speech from backbenches.Regarding his budgets the one policy that had some sense was abolishing the rule that you had to buy an annuity.
The loyalty oath reminds me of Blairs dragging them to cash points policy.lasted a Sunday afternoon.When they have nothing sensible to say, why don't they just shut the f up.,Was surprised Osborne on Marr thought it was a good idea.Thought he had more nous than that.Politicians are certainly a different breed with no common sense sometimes.
Quite what the mechanism is by which a graduate Sir Humphrey mumbling a few words in Whitehall encourages a Muslim woman in Luton to learn better English isn't fully explained.
Harry Cole Remember when the Remain campaign said there were "similar" numbers of Brits living in Europe as there were European citizens living here... https://t.co/1R7vIAzPWw
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
Maybe I am being thick because it is almost xmas but the sort of lack of integration that Casey's report discussed, at least according to media reports, was of people who lived with others from a very similar background and ethnicity and did not speak english, or ever leave their home/work places and basically almost never met people from English and other longer standing resident backgrounds. Examples included a set of streets in Bradford West.
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
Surely it's precisely to tackle the Little Somalia or Bangladesh or wherever - if you want to be eligible to stand - you have to prove you're an advocate of integration and a personal example of it.
The point stands though since no one from those ghettos are going to stand for public office or work in the public sector. If it was rolled out to all citizens then it might make a difference, but that would be extremely contentious.
That's not necessarily true, though is it? It is quite possible that there will be some from such communities who will seek public office.
And rule out subsidies for their local producers except
I agree with all of that.
The question is: if the world rows back on free trade as it did in the late 1920s, will it have the same terrible effect on the world economy?
Doesn't that rather depend on whether you accept the Kantian analysis i.e. that liberal democracies are the ones least likely to go to war with each other? What was missing in the 1930s was enough strongly based liberal democracies, certainly in Europe. The pressures of economic downturn were strong enough to uproot such recently created democracies as existed, with relatively rare exceptions.
The interesting question to my mind is whether liberal democracy is sufficiently entrenched now to withstand whatever economic / political storms are coming our way. I wish I were more confident on this point. There is a good article on this very point in the current issue of Standpoint magazine, for anyone interested.
Do you have a link to the article?
I also worry about whether or not liberal democracy will last. Not least because the centre of economic gravity is likely to shift over the coming decades to countries that are not.
And rule out subsidies for their local producers except
I agree with all of that.
The question is: if the world rows back on free trade as it did in the late 1920s, will it have the same terrible effect on the world economy?
Doesn't that rather depend on whether you accept the Kantian analysis i.e. that liberal democracies are the ones least likely to go to war with each other? What was missing in the 1930s was enough strongly based liberal democracies, certainly in Europe. The pressures of economic downturn were strong enough to uproot such recently created democracies as existed, with relatively rare exceptions.
The interesting question to my mind is whether liberal democracy is sufficiently entrenched now to withstand whatever economic / political storms are coming our way. I wish I were more confident on this point. There is a good article on this very point in the current issue of Standpoint magazine, for anyone interested.
Do you have a link to the article?
I also worry about whether or not liberal democracy will last. Not least because the centre of economic gravity is likely to shift over the coming decades to countries that are not.
"Unfortunately, by Sheen’s own admission, none of this is true. The actor – whose agent must have had a fit – posted a blog on his personal Tumblr feed later the same day completely denying the story:
“I did one interview with The Times of London a few weeks ago, parts of which (including a headline that is not a quote) have been picked up by a lot of other outlets. I DID NOT declare that I’m ‘quitting acting and leaving Hollywood’ to go into politics.”
He continued:
“I certainly did NOT equate people who voted for Brexit or Trump with a fascistic ‘hard right’ that must be stopped. The majority of people in the U.K., including my hometown of Port Talbot, voted for Brexit. That is the will of the people and is to be respected. That is democracy.”
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
snip
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
Surely it's precisely to tackle the Little Somalia or Bangladesh or wherever - if you want to be eligible to stand - you have to prove you're an advocate of integration and a personal example of it.
The point stands though since no one from those ghettos are going to stand for public office or work in the public sector. If it was rolled out to all citizens then it might make a difference, but that would be extremely contentious.
That's not necessarily true, though is it? It is quite possible that there will be some from such communities who will seek public office.
The other issue is what the oath what actually contain. Charles Moore raises this issue in his column today in DT.
@isam As the non EU migrant numbers show though the Gov't was not willing to attempt to reduce any sort of migration.
Anyway I think the following has lead to the vote out
a) Lack of housing - when the bread goes for sky high prices in banana republics we don't all remark how brilliant their bread is. Should land inside the M25 really be used for farming ?!
b) Benefits system being non contributory & a tax/benefit system that is not designed for migration effects.
c) Lack of an effective system for disallowing illegal workers (Such as the Swiss have)
d) "Family"/dodgy student migration - the latter has been cracked down on.
e) A lack of strong cities outside London (Manchester is perhaps getting there, our 'second' cities are far too small for our size as a nation.
f) A failure to simply properly record migration properly for ages. Count people in and out from airports and seaports, not really so hard !
g) A focus on gdp growth over gdp per capita growth.
h) Median incomes stagnating, alot of the benefits of migration going to those who already have plenty.
i) Lack of investment in alot of areas of the country.
j) The Tories (in particular) pushing high immigration as "unfortunate" in their press releases after another 300k net come in or whatever whilst simultaenously doing zip about it and not even trying to make a positive case. Massive cognitive dissonance !
"Unfortunately, by Sheen’s own admission, none of this is true. The actor – whose agent must have had a fit – posted a blog on his personal Tumblr feed later the same day completely denying the story:
“I did one interview with The Times of London a few weeks ago, parts of which (including a headline that is not a quote) have been picked up by a lot of other outlets. I DID NOT declare that I’m ‘quitting acting and leaving Hollywood’ to go into politics.”
He continued:
“I certainly did NOT equate people who voted for Brexit or Trump with a fascistic ‘hard right’ that must be stopped. The majority of people in the U.K., including my hometown of Port Talbot, voted for Brexit. That is the will of the people and is to be respected. That is democracy.”
The loyalty oath reminds me of Blairs dragging them to cash points policy.lasted a Sunday afternoon.When they have nothing sensible to say, why don't they just shut the f up.,Was surprised Osborne on Marr thought it was a good idea.Thought he had more nous than that.Politicians are certainly a different breed with no common sense sometimes.
Quite what the mechanism is by which a graduate Sir Humphrey mumbling a few words in Whitehall encourages a Muslim woman in Luton to learn better English isn't fully explained.
Because the Muslim women, when she arrived in this country as an immigrant will have taken this oath and hopefully realised what rights she has in this country and what the basic cultural expectations of the UK are. You seem quite happy to leave people trapped in their ghettos rather than allowing them to fully participate in the freedoms they have in this country.
Pulpstar Posts: 33,649 10:16AM @isam As the non EU migrant numbers show though the Gov't was not willing to attempt to reduce any sort of migration.
Anyway I think the following has lead to the vote out
a) Lack of housing - when the bread goes for sky high prices in banana republics we don't all remark how brilliant their bread is. Should land inside the M25 really be used for farming ?!
Yes, unless you want people to be sick all the time. Urbanisation has to be interspersed with significant acreages of agriculture and forestry. It is the plants that clean the air allowing us to have a life.
The loyalty oath reminds me of Blairs dragging them to cash points policy.lasted a Sunday afternoon.When they have nothing sensible to say, why don't they just shut the f up.,Was surprised Osborne on Marr thought it was a good idea.Thought he had more nous than that.Politicians are certainly a different breed with no common sense sometimes.
Quite what the mechanism is by which a graduate Sir Humphrey mumbling a few words in Whitehall encourages a Muslim woman in Luton to learn better English isn't fully explained.
Maybe - just maybe - some public officials might realize that making it easy for citizens not to speak English by providing information in a range of foreign languages is counterproductive because it removes one incentive to learn English and because it sends out a signal that it is OK to live in England while not bothering to learn English and that making it essential to speak English in England (the horror!) might be more sensible.
And, yes, yes, I know all the counterarguments.
But providing endless translations costs money. And if you cannot get on in a country without speaking the language then you're bloody well forced to learn, aren't you?
When my mother came over, her English was not good at all. There were no Italian translations of all and sundry. She learnt to speak better English because she had to. When in Rome etc.
The loyalty oath reminds me of Blairs dragging them to cash points policy.lasted a Sunday afternoon.When they have nothing sensible to say, why don't they just shut the f up.,Was surprised Osborne on Marr thought it was a good idea.Thought he had more nous than that.Politicians are certainly a different breed with no common sense sometimes.
Quite what the mechanism is by which a graduate Sir Humphrey mumbling a few words in Whitehall encourages a Muslim woman in Luton to learn better English isn't fully explained.
Because the Muslim women, when she arrived in this country as an immigrant will have taken this oath and hopefully realised what rights she has in this country and what the basic cultural expectations of the UK are. You seem quite happy to leave people trapped in their ghettos rather than allowing them to fully participate in the freedoms they have in this country.
At the moment there's no proposal for the Muslim woman to take such an oath.
As for integration, presumably you would support British migrants into Spain to be similarly required to learn Spanish and give up meat and two veg in favour of tapas?
Javid's Times article is fairly clear. It's about public officials setting an example of the cultural values the UK believes are important, eg freedom of expression, openness , tolerance.
It's not going to stop anyone from misbehaving but it does might help to change the culture and makes it easier to say to new immigrants that these are the values they need to agree to if they want to come here.
It's also easy politics when people like Diane Abbot and Jez refuse to take the new oath. They are already close to being seen as traitors, refusal of a new oath would just reinforce that. This is the real reason for it, a very cheap political shot at Labour's front bench of questionable patriotism.
Yes, we have massive problems in this country and all Tories are interested in is reducing politics to flagwaving. Sums up in one paragraph why I'll never vote for them.
The fact that anyone is seriously suggesting making people take a British values oath is as near an admission that we have had too immigration as we are going to get.
Won't work.
In the USA all new immigrants pledge allegiance to the flag.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
Maybe I am being thick because it is almost xmas but the sort of lack of integration that Casey's report discussed, at least according to media reports, was of people who lived with others from a very similar background and ethnicity and did not speak english, or ever leave their home/work places and basically almost never met people from English and other longer standing resident backgrounds. Examples included a set of streets in Bradford West.
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
Surely it's precisely to tackle the Little Somalia or Bangladesh or wherever - if you want to be eligible to stand - you have to prove you're an advocate of integration and a personal example of it.
Ukips Gerard Batten proposed something similar years ago, although his 'Muslim charter' was a bit more explicitly targeted I suppose.
All other parties condemned it at the time
One about British values etc is about "us" and what we stand for.
One for Muslims is about "them".
Two completely different things. In America you say an oath of allegiance to America and the flag etc but again it is about being part of "us" in America and not "them".
The Victorian Commons Died #onthisday 1881, from injuries sustained by falling on a turnip, Sir William Payne Gallwey, Conservative MP for Thirsk, 1851-80.
The loyalty oath reminds me of Blairs dragging them to cash points policy.lasted a Sunday afternoon.When they have nothing sensible to say, why don't they just shut the f up.,Was surprised Osborne on Marr thought it was a good idea.Thought he had more nous than that.Politicians are certainly a different breed with no common sense sometimes.
Quite what the mechanism is by which a graduate Sir Humphrey mumbling a few words in Whitehall encourages a Muslim woman in Luton to learn better English isn't fully explained.
Because the Muslim women, when she arrived in this country as an immigrant will have taken this oath and hopefully realised what rights she has in this country and what the basic cultural expectations of the UK are. You seem quite happy to leave people trapped in their ghettos rather than allowing them to fully participate in the freedoms they have in this country.
At the moment there's no proposal for the Muslim woman to take such an oath.
As for integration, presumably you would support British migrants into Spain to be similarly required to learn Spanish and give up meat and two veg in favour of tapas?
Javid's article was that as a first step towards asking new immigrants to take a loyalty oath, public servants should set an example by taking it themselves. Public officials taking it wasn't the be all and end all of the proposal.
How other countries ask their immigrants to behave is up to the host country but as basic good manners I would expect British migrants to learn the local language and behave in a culturally appropriate manner.
On topic: it seems very strange that we don't yet know what the voting system will be for an election which takes place in four and a half months' time. Whose decision is it?
The loyalty oath reminds me of Blairs dragging them to cash points policy.lasted a Sunday afternoon.When they have nothing sensible to say, why don't they just shut the f up.,Was surprised Osborne on Marr thought it was a good idea.Thought he had more nous than that.Politicians are certainly a different breed with no common sense sometimes.
Quite what the mechanism is by which a graduate Sir Humphrey mumbling a few words in Whitehall encourages a Muslim woman in Luton to learn better English isn't fully explained.
Because the Muslim women, when she arrived in this country as an immigrant will have taken this oath and hopefully realised what rights she has in this country and what the basic cultural expectations of the UK are. You seem quite happy to leave people trapped in their ghettos rather than allowing them to fully participate in the freedoms they have in this country.
At the moment there's no proposal for the Muslim woman to take such an oath.
As for integration, presumably you would support British migrants into Spain to be similarly required to learn Spanish and give up meat and two veg in favour of tapas?
Javid's article was that as a first step towards asking new immigrants to take a loyalty oath, public servants should set an example by taking it themselves. Public officials taking it wasn't the be all and end all of the proposal.
How other countries ask their immigrants to behave is up to the host country but as basic good manners I would expect British migrants to learn the local language and behave in a culturally appropriate manner.
It is too late now, but the way to ensure (as much as it is possible to) that migrants assimilate, is to control the numbers. It is weight of numbers that allows such lack of integration.
But now it is surely too late? Most people like being with people similar to them, given the choice. Why would you live somewhere you don't speak the language when you can go live somewhere that's just like home?
On topic: it seems very strange that we don't yet know what the voting system will be for an election which takes place in four and a half months' time. Whose decision is it?
This is horrible to watch. India post 700 and Karun, on 267, sends for his '20/20 bat' from the dressing room and promptly scores 15 from the remaining five balls of the over! 717/6, lead of 241...
If liberals won't defend the rights of women then we're leaving it to people like Le Pen. And people like her will then be accused of being obnoxious and populist and all the other boo words. And this may be well deserved. But we're failing to look at the beams in our own eyes. Or in this case the blind eyes we are turning to behavior that we would normally call out for the obnoxious behavior it is.
The loyalty oath reminds me of Blairs dragging them to cash points policy.lasted a Sunday afternoon.When they have nothing sensible to say, why don't they just shut the f up.,Was surprised Osborne on Marr thought it was a good idea.Thought he had more nous than that.Politicians are certainly a different breed with no common sense sometimes.
Quite what the mechanism is by which a graduate Sir Humphrey mumbling a few words in Whitehall encourages a Muslim woman in Luton to learn better English isn't fully explained.
Maybe - just maybe - some public officials might realize that making it easy for citizens not to speak English by providing information in a range of foreign languages is counterproductive because it removes one incentive to learn English and because it sends out a signal that it is OK to live in England while not bothering to learn English and that making it essential to speak English in England (the horror!) might be more sensible.
And, yes, yes, I know all the counterarguments.
But providing endless translations costs money. And if you cannot get on in a country without speaking the language then you're bloody well forced to learn, aren't you?
When my mother came over, her English was not good at all. There were no Italian translations of all and sundry. She learnt to speak better English because she had to. When in Rome etc.
I don't know all the counterarguments, but it is clear to me that immigrants should acquire the language to become a proper citizen. This should not be controversial. If I wanted to become a Finnish citizen I would have to pass a quite rigorous language test. By no means an easy task, yet hardly anyone cavils.
On topic: it seems very strange that we don't yet know what the voting system will be for an election which takes place in four and a half months' time. Whose decision is it?
India will declare when either Nair gets out or his three hundred I think. Dovetails nicely into getting a few overs in at tired/potentially mentally shot English batsmen tonight.
By any reasonable definition that was indeed "Fake News" which means that the big social networks will presumably automatically flag the Guardian as an untrustworthy source and bury it in search results. Cool.
The loyalty oath reminds me of Blairs dragging them to cash points policy.lasted a Sunday afternoon.When they have nothing sensible to say, why don't they just shut the f up.,Was surprised Osborne on Marr thought it was a good idea.Thought he had more nous than that.Politicians are certainly a different breed with no common sense sometimes.
Quite what the mechanism is by which a graduate Sir Humphrey mumbling a few words in Whitehall encourages a Muslim woman in Luton to learn better English isn't fully explained.
Because the Muslim women, when she arrived in this country as an immigrant will have taken this oath and hopefully realised what rights she has in this country and what the basic cultural expectations of the UK are. You seem quite happy to leave people trapped in their ghettos rather than allowing them to fully participate in the freedoms they have in this country.
At the moment there's no proposal for the Muslim woman to take such an oath.
As for integration, presumably you would support British migrants into Spain to be similarly required to learn Spanish and give up meat and two veg in favour of tapas?
Claro, de hecho ya prefiero la comida espanol. Quizas pienses demasiado poco sobre los ingeleses que han salida.
@isam As the non EU migrant numbers show though the Gov't was not willing to attempt to reduce any sort of migration.
Anyway I think the following has lead to the vote out
a) Lack of housing - when the bread goes for sky high prices in banana republics we don't all remark how brilliant their bread is. Should land inside the M25 really be used for farming ?!
b) Benefits system being non contributory & a tax/benefit system that is not designed for migration effects.
c) Lack of an effective system for disallowing illegal workers (Such as the Swiss have)
d) "Family"/dodgy student migration - the latter has been cracked down on.
e) A lack of strong cities outside London (Manchester is perhaps getting there, our 'second' cities are far too small for our size as a nation.
f) A failure to simply properly record migration properly for ages. Count people in and out from airports and seaports, not really so hard !
g) A focus on gdp growth over gdp per capita growth.
h) Median incomes stagnating, alot of the benefits of migration going to those who already have plenty.
i) Lack of investment in alot of areas of the country.
j) The Tories (in particular) pushing high immigration as "unfortunate" in their press releases after another 300k net come in or whatever whilst simultaenously doing zip about it and not even trying to make a positive case. Massive cognitive dissonance !
A great list by Pulpstar that all politicians would do well to study.
By any reasonable definition that was indeed "Fake News" which means that the big social networks will presumably automatically flag the Guardian as an untrustworthy source and bury it in search results. Cool.
I honestly can't quite believe the desperation from many in the MSM and liberal online news-sites. They're so convinced/scared about losing their marketshare that they'll resort to the sort of overt Approved News that would make China and Russia blush. That Facebook et al are colluding with this nonsense speaks volumes - and if I thought for a minute that Ordinary Person would be persuaded by such pathetic sledgehammers - I'd be very concerned.
It's censorship of the most laughable and obvious variety and ruins what's left of their own credibility. It invites those who've been made pariahs to deep dive into their stories and go full-tilt at errors made by the supposed purveyors of 'real news'. It's 101 not to rubbish your own trade as it will certainly boomerang back in spades.
Yet here we are. The MSM and liberal sites are losing everywhere and frankly, almost all of it is well deserved. They brought it on themselves and thought The People were fools.
Morning all: regarding trade deals, it is easiest for countries with non-overlapping areas of activity to enter into trade deals.
Lets not enter into them then. There is no shortcut to economic success.
It's not a shortcut - more opening gates and removing barbed wire from the path.
Economically an FTA is very simpke: an I better offer before or after
Politically it is more difficult to assess. Inevitably there is some sharing of sovereignty. The question is how well defined is that sharing, is it too expensive, and will it be self-expanding over time.
We're not even on the path. All we'd be doing is removing the barbed wire for other countries to squeeze more money out of the great UK money sponge.
MaxPB said: » show previous quotes The point stands though since no one from those ghettos are going to stand for public office or work in the public sector. If it was rolled out to all citizens then it might make a difference, but that would be extremely contentious.
That's not necessarily true, though is it? It is quite possible that there will be some from such communities who will seek public office.
-----------
On topic. Several of the candidates for the Greater Manchester mayoralty are from special interest groups. This enhances the chances of the LD candidate.
As a Mancunian, I would not vote for a Scouser, I deliberately voted against the Tory's candidate for mayor in the Trafford council ward election earlier this year because of his proclivities, and while I share many of the values of the UKIP candidate, he is unlikely to appeal to the WWC vote. The LD candidate is an excellent contender and is also a local Altrincham councillor; she might well get my vote despite my support for Leave.
On(ish) topic: I suppose Labour is now looking for a Mackem to stand in Newcastle, a Yam Yam to stand in Birmingham and a member of Lancashire County Cricket Club/Man United season ticket holder to stand in Leeds.
Comments
The BBC does try to be gender-neutral at times. I was listening (briefly) to an "investigation" by R5L yesterday.
The shocking story of a 42-year-old man being killed by an uncaring NHS. He was demanding a hospital bed because he was anorexic and the beds were currently filled. They were condemning him to death by not doing what he demanded.
I admit to being less than sympathetic. He had the self-entitlement of a Premiership footballer but got a sympathetic hearing. How dare the NHS struggle to give him a bed? Throw out those terminal cancer patients so he can feel wanted (that last bit was my interpretation).
I admit that I'd have more sympathy for a thirteen-year-old girl.
As they say in Viz, I nearly put my foot through the radio and sent the bill to the BBC.
But your point about ignoring statistics is correct.
Don't we have a citizenship test here though ?
We have become blasé about true liberal values. And we risk losing them. It is not a legacy I wish to leave my children.
This article is also interesting on this point - https://www.cato.org/policy-report/novemberdecember-2016/new-old-challenge-global-anti-libertarianism.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/37789613
How are people in this situation ever going to be in a position to hold a public office and therefore swear this new oath?
Am I missing something or is this just 'fill the grid' with froth between xmas break-up day and new year?
James Heartfield
So, it seems the first casualty of @Guardian's campaign against fake news is an article in ...the Guardian https://t.co/MwOiHn7kwu
I know many many counterexamples outside the EU that prove the rule here, nevertheless it is certainly not EU migration that creates situations like the ones you've mentioned here !
All other parties condemned it at the time
Remember when the Remain campaign said there were "similar" numbers of Brits living in Europe as there were European citizens living here... https://t.co/1R7vIAzPWw
"Unfortunately, by Sheen’s own admission, none of this is true. The actor – whose agent must have had a fit – posted a blog on his personal Tumblr feed later the same day completely denying the story:
“I did one interview with The Times of London a few weeks ago, parts of which (including a headline that is not a quote) have been picked up by a lot of other outlets. I DID NOT declare that I’m ‘quitting acting and leaving Hollywood’ to go into politics.”
He continued:
“I certainly did NOT equate people who voted for Brexit or Trump with a fascistic ‘hard right’ that must be stopped. The majority of people in the U.K., including my hometown of Port Talbot, voted for Brexit. That is the will of the people and is to be respected. That is democracy.”
http://order-order.com/2016/12/19/sheen-comes-off-guardians/
Anyway I think the following has lead to the vote out
a) Lack of housing - when the bread goes for sky high prices in banana republics we don't all remark how brilliant their bread is. Should land inside the M25 really be used for farming ?!
b) Benefits system being non contributory & a tax/benefit system that is not designed for migration effects.
c) Lack of an effective system for disallowing illegal workers (Such as the Swiss have)
d) "Family"/dodgy student migration - the latter has been cracked down on.
e) A lack of strong cities outside London (Manchester is perhaps getting there, our 'second' cities are far too small for our size as a nation.
f) A failure to simply properly record migration properly for ages. Count people in and out from airports and seaports, not really so hard !
g) A focus on gdp growth over gdp per capita growth.
h) Median incomes stagnating, alot of the benefits of migration going to those who already have plenty.
i) Lack of investment in alot of areas of the country.
j) The Tories (in particular) pushing high immigration as "unfortunate" in their press releases after another 300k net come in or whatever whilst simultaenously doing zip about it and not even trying to make a positive case. Massive cognitive dissonance !
10:16AM
@isam As the non EU migrant numbers show though the Gov't was not willing to attempt to reduce any sort of migration.
Anyway I think the following has lead to the vote out
a) Lack of housing - when the bread goes for sky high prices in banana republics we don't all remark how brilliant their bread is. Should land inside the M25 really be used for farming ?!
Yes, unless you want people to be sick all the time.
Urbanisation has to be interspersed with significant acreages of agriculture and forestry. It is the plants that clean the air allowing us to have a life.
And, yes, yes, I know all the counterarguments.
But providing endless translations costs money. And if you cannot get on in a country without speaking the language then you're bloody well forced to learn, aren't you?
When my mother came over, her English was not good at all. There were no Italian translations of all and sundry. She learnt to speak better English because she had to. When in Rome etc.
As for integration, presumably you would support British migrants into Spain to be similarly required to learn Spanish and give up meat and two veg in favour of tapas?
One for Muslims is about "them".
Two completely different things. In America you say an oath of allegiance to America and the flag etc but again it is about being part of "us" in America and not "them".
The Victorian Commons
Died #onthisday 1881, from injuries sustained by falling on a turnip, Sir William Payne Gallwey, Conservative MP for Thirsk, 1851-80.
How other countries ask their immigrants to behave is up to the host country but as basic good manners I would expect British migrants to learn the local language and behave in a culturally appropriate manner.
But now it is surely too late? Most people like being with people similar to them, given the choice. Why would you live somewhere you don't speak the language when you can go live somewhere that's just like home?
http://tinyurl.com/jzugtf8
If liberals won't defend the rights of women then we're leaving it to people like Le Pen. And people like her will then be accused of being obnoxious and populist and all the other boo words. And this may be well deserved. But we're failing to look at the beams in our own eyes. Or in this case the blind eyes we are turning to behavior that we would normally call out for the obnoxious behavior it is.
729 India's previous highest score in any test about to be broken.
The 1990s I remembered getting shellacked in every Ashes series that decade, 46 all out, 1992 and 1993 when we went a year without winning a test.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283966.html
India 759/7dec, Karun Nair 303 not out.
'Triple figures' is when you get your first century not your third.
That's got to hurt
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/jan/10/hanif-mohammad-run-out-499
http://www.petertatchellfoundation.org/stop-the-war-uk-has-betrayed-the-syrian-people/
There was also the long-time first class world record, when Hanif Mohammed was run out for 499.
There seems to be a quality mismatch here more than the pitch.
Sadiq Khan appoints Lord Mandelson to new expert Brexit panel
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/sadiq-khan-appoints-lord-mandelson-to-new-expert-brexit-panel-a3423671.html
https://countrysquire.co.uk/2016/12/14/newsnights-inexorable-decline/
It's censorship of the most laughable and obvious variety and ruins what's left of their own credibility. It invites those who've been made pariahs to deep dive into their stories and go full-tilt at errors made by the supposed purveyors of 'real news'. It's 101 not to rubbish your own trade as it will certainly boomerang back in spades.
Yet here we are. The MSM and liberal sites are losing everywhere and frankly, almost all of it is well deserved. They brought it on themselves and thought The People were fools.
Another reason to back him to be the next leader.
MaxPB said:
» show previous quotes
The point stands though since no one from those ghettos are going to stand for public office or work in the public sector. If it was rolled out to all citizens then it might make a difference, but that would be extremely contentious.
That's not necessarily true, though is it? It is quite possible that there will be some from such communities who will seek public office.
-----------
On topic. Several of the candidates for the Greater Manchester mayoralty are from special interest groups. This enhances the chances of the LD candidate.
As a Mancunian, I would not vote for a Scouser, I deliberately voted against the Tory's candidate for mayor in the Trafford council ward election earlier this year because of his proclivities, and while I share many of the values of the UKIP candidate, he is unlikely to appeal to the WWC vote. The LD candidate is an excellent contender and is also a local Altrincham councillor; she might well get my vote despite my support for Leave.
India surely vale at 3.3 for the win, against 1.43 for the draw?
Interestingly CricViz think the other way, making the draw an 85% chance from here.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/article-4046558/The-Mahmood-family-apology.html