lol. Now that's proper BONKERS, that is. Pure 100% single source, chateau-bottled David Icke. You sound like the most insane of eurosceptics, without even realising.
I have theory about people like you and Meeks - you sad, unpleasant creatures.
I reckon middle class liberal Remainers like you are acting so weirdly & hysterically about Brexit because, for you, the EU had, in a sense, replaced Faith.
That is to say: for certain atheist liberal internationalists, the EU was part of a post-religious belief structure. So Brexit feels like heresy.
Therefore you guys will NEVER be reconciled to Brexit. It will ALWAYS be wrong (even if Brexit Britain prospers). It was and is a blasphemy.
In that light, I feel kinda sorry for you. Sometimes.
Why do I dislike Brexit so much? It's nothing to do with any emotional attachment to the EU. There's much about the EU to dislike and little to love.
No, the reason I dislike Brexit so much is because it is spawned by a repulsive xenophobia, a barely suppressed hatred of foreigners (be they immigrants, other Europeans or Muslims) and dressed up as patriotism. Vile and immoral gurning dullards have dared to take my identity as a Briton and have turned it into something backward-looking, racist, dreary and frightened.
It sickens me. People like you sicken me. Your crazed monomania has destroyed the dignity of this once-decent country.
So no, why do I dislike Brexit so much? It's because of odious shits like you.
You both sound equally bad to me... :-)
It's a Christmas Special ironic tribute to the Referendum campaign.
They take our Like button, and we fall back. They take our Quote button, and we fall back. Not again! The line must be drawn here. This far, and no further!!
I have no doubt that eventually some of the thoughtful Leavers will feel a burning shame for ever having been associated with the campaign that they fought for.
Dan Hannan has skipped the shame part and moved straight to pretending he was part of a different campaign.
Dan Hannan blocked me on twitter when he said Leave winning had nothing to do with immigration and I tweeted some vote Leave materials that proved otherwise, and a screen grab of the Vote Leave board of which he was a member of.
I have no doubt that eventually some of the thoughtful Leavers will feel a burning shame for ever having been associated with the campaign that they fought for.
Dan Hannan has skipped the shame part and moved straight to pretending he was part of a different campaign.
Dan Hannan blocked me on twitter when he said Leave winning had nothing to do with immigration and I tweeted some vote Leave materials that proved otherwise, and a screen grab of the Vote Leave board of which he was a member of.
He deleted a series of tweets about how Brexit means we can lower tariffs on Chilean wine without realising that the EU has an FTA with Chile.
BTW, I'm watching Weiner, the excruciatingly embarrassingly fly-on-the-wall documentary following the New York Mayoral campaign of former Congressman Wiener. If anyone thought Remain had a bad campaign.....
Mr. Jonnie, takes me back. Used to play on a MUD and in one area there was a mob that came out with stuff like "I have solved the Riemann Hypothesis!" and "I have conceived the Mandelbrot set!"
I believe Smithson Jnr is on the case. Meanwhile, you can use the quote facility via the forum if you don’t mind the faffing about. Just click on the comment time stamp to get you there.
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
Which bit of the EU noose particularly affected your life?
Or was it the diminution* in workers' wages that so angered you to action?
Nice of the EU to translate its negotiating brief into a English before leaking it.
I don't have a quote button at all any more. Still for weeks now the only way I can log on from an iPad is by going through the forgotten password routine, and the system logs me off once or twice every day. Poor rcs mus be getting fed up sending me the emails.
@KennyFarq: My money's on Sturgeon agreeing to top up child benefit and create a new allowance for young carers, winning Green support for her budget.
@KennyFarq: / Although one disadvantage would be that it accepted the true significance of welfare powers being devolved to Scots under Smith Agreement.
@KennyFarq: / Many of Sturgeon's supporters continue to believe these powers are meaningless. Or even that they don't exist.
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
The EU have real problems with the falling currency, immigration, rise of anger throughout the Union, unacceptably high rates of youth unemployment, and all they can do today is act like a bunch of children and disresect the Prime Minister and our Country.
After seeing that today the sooner we recover our self respect and leave the EU to descend into their own strife and internal power plays the better
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
Which bit of the EU noose particularly affected your life?
Or was it the diminution* in workers' wages that so angered you to action?
*trivial.
*No pay rise for a decade/decreased job security
.. and why harangue people like this as if you have discovered a killer tactic that wins you the argument? People that were never going to marry someone of the same sex may vote for gay marriage, people that are earn a lot of money may vote for a rise in income tax, personal gratification or lack of is neither here nor there.
"Which bit of the EU noose particularly affected your life."
Nothing, because I have far more serious things to worry about. Why did I vote Leave? Because the lies told in 1975 annoyed me.
Don't all politicians lie? Most are merely economical with the truth, because expecting to get away with bare-faced fibs is an insult to the electorate. Had Remain won, I'd have accepted it. That's a word of nine letters beginning with 'D' and ending in 'cracy'.
Hating others for their views is self-defeating. And if you're in a minority, pointless.
The interior of the Scottish Parliament Building is almost as hideous as the outside, it looks like a 1950s derelict cinema, - have they finished building it?
Mr. Herdson, could just be the negotiating position.
If they really think that free movement of people will fly in exchange merely for negotiation on access, I suspect that won't go down well in Blighty.
Be interesting to see how the electorate would react. Economic hardship, but also contempt and aggression from the EU.
UKIP might do well to invoke an economic Blitz spirit [I fear 'Britz' spirit may end up being coined...].
Might play well for May, perversely. A 'hard' departure from the EU, but her being forced into it, means she gets to blame Johnny Foreigner for any problems that arise, and her backbenches will be quite content.
Lib Dems may make hay but could overdo it and be seen to be siding with Brussels over Britain.
The interior of the Scottish Parliament Building is almost as hideous as the outside, it looks like a 1950s derelict cinema, - have they finished building it?
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
Which bit of the EU noose particularly affected your life?
Or was it the diminution* in workers' wages that so angered you to action?
*trivial.
*No pay rise for a decade/decreased job security
.. and why harangue people like this as if you have discovered a killer tactic that wins you the argument? People that were never going to marry someone of the same sex may vote for gay marriage, people that are earn a lot of money may vote for a rise in income tax, personal gratification or lack of is neither here nor there.
I'm not haranguing, this is PB.
Plus the idea that EU immigrants have depressed the wages of the low-skilled is far from conclusive. Economic studies put it as less important a factor as many others.
I keep on at it because my belief is that voting Brexit didn't come from any reasoned analysis of where we benefit from and where we make compromises with the EU. It came from a desire to try to make sense of an increasingly unpredictable and challenging world (it is no coincidence that the Leave vote followed soon after the GFC). Leave's Take Control slogan was perfectly judged. It gave people the idea that they could indeed take control whereas in actual fact, not only was the EU not denying them control in any sensible terms (apart from droit de suite and another one or two non-issues), nor did it impinge upon sovereignty, as was proven by our vote to Leave. Whereas in actual fact they will still be as much at the mercy of governement, their bosses, a resurgent Chelsea as they were before.
I keep on banging on about it because the illogicality does my head in and no one can quite put their finger on why they voted to leave that stands up to any sensible scrutiny. Not you and the phantom wage depression, nor Tyndall with his nebulous idea of sovereignty.
The crossbreaks on this poll look a bit odd. The figures for Scotland are SNP 36 Con 30 Lab 16 – which I suspect has the SNP far too low and the Tories too high. The England data comes out at Con 41 Lab 30 LD 14 . The Tory 11% lead compares with a lead of 9.5% in England in May 2015 – implying a swing of just 0.75% from Lab to Con there.On that swing Labour would lose just 7 seats – and most of them are held by Labour MPs likely to enjoy a first time incumbency boost. Very few seats in England, therefore, might change hands at all! The sample size of those giving a voting preference is under 700. I am a bit suspicious of the poll to be honest – exceptionally good for the Tories in Scotland but rather reassuring for Labour in England!
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
Which bit of the EU noose particularly affected your life?
Or was it the diminution* in workers' wages that so angered you to action?
*trivial.
*No pay rise for a decade/decreased job security
.. and why harangue people like this as if you have discovered a killer tactic that wins you the argument? People that were never going to marry someone of the same sex may vote for gay marriage, people that are earn a lot of money may vote for a rise in income tax, personal gratification or lack of is neither here nor there.
I'm not haranguing, this is PB.
Plus the idea that EU immigrants have depressed the wages of the low-skilled is far from conclusive. Economic studies put it as less important a factor as many others.
I keep on at it because my belief is that voting Brexit didn't come from any reasoned analysis of where we benefit from and where we make compromises with the EU. It came from a desire to try to make sense of an increasingly unpredictable and challenging world (it is no coincidence that the Leave vote followed soon after the GFC). Leave's Take Control slogan was perfectly judged. It gave people the idea that they could indeed take control whereas in actual fact, not only was the EU not denying them control in any sensible terms (apart from droit de suite and another one or two non-issues), nor did it impinge upon sovereignty, as was proven by our vote to Leave. Whereas in actual fact they will still be as much at the mercy of governement, their bosses, a resurgent Chelsea as they were before.
I keep on banging on about it because the illogicality does my head in and no one can quite put their finger on why they voted to leave that stands up to any sensible scrutiny. Not you and the phantom wage depression, nor Tyndall with his nebulous idea of sovereignty.
Very simply because the UK and continental Europe have fundamentally different legal systems and cultures and I didn't believe that the future direction of travel of the EU would be in the UK's best interests.
Can you validate that? No - it's a belief about the future based on experience of the past.
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
*trivial.
*No pay rise for a decade/decreased job security
.. and why harangue people like this as if you have discovered a killer tactic that wins you the argument? People that were never going to marry someone of the same sex may vote for gay marriage, people that are earn a lot of money may vote for a rise in income tax, personal gratification or lack of is neither here nor there.
I'm not haranguing, this is PB.
Plus the idea that EU immigrants have depressed the wages of the low-skilled is far from conclusive. Economic studies put it as less important a factor as many others.
I keep on at it because my belief is that voting Brexit didn't come from any reasoned analysis of where we benefit from and where we make compromises with the EU. It came from a desire to try to make sense of an increasingly unpredictable and challenging world (it is no coincidence that the Leave vote followed soon after the GFC). Leave's Take Control slogan was perfectly judged. It gave people the idea that they could indeed take control whereas in actual fact, not only was the EU not denying them control in any sensible terms (apart from droit de suite and another one or two non-issues), nor did it impinge upon sovereignty, as was proven by our vote to Leave. Whereas in actual fact they will still be as much at the mercy of governement, their bosses, a resurgent Chelsea as they were before.
I keep on banging on about it because the illogicality does my head in and no one can quite put their finger on why they voted to leave that stands up to any sensible scrutiny. Not you and the phantom wage depression, nor Tyndall with his nebulous idea of sovereignty.
You seem to want a pick a fight, and I am no longer in the mood to fight about this, particularly as my side/argument won.
It isn't phantom wage depression, it is a lack of a pay rise in a decade (actually a small decrease), while living standards rise, housing becomes more expensive etc etc.. added to this, the people experiencing this wage stagnation/job insecurity are at the same time finding their hometowns changing rapidly, increasing their anxiety.
When they complained, at best no one listened, at worst they were called racist/little Englanders by people with no experience of the lifestyle they had.
They had the chance to vote and they took it, and that's that.
The line about the four freedoms being a pre-requisite to 'access' to the Single Market implies a hard line being taken. I can't see this ending well.
They're hardly likely to concede that before negotiations begin, are they?
Difference between 'access' and 'membership', as has been noted many times. Certainly membership of the SM was always going to have to mean signing up to all four freedoms but *access*?
The line about the four freedoms being a pre-requisite to 'access' to the Single Market implies a hard line being taken. I can't see this ending well.
They're hardly likely to concede that before negotiations begin, are they?
Difference between 'access' and 'membership', as has been noted many times. Certainly membership of the SM was always going to have to mean signing up to all four freedoms but *access*?
It emphasises that they are treating it as a divorce settlement, not a trade negotiation.
It emphasises that they are treating it as a divorce settlement, not a trade negotiation.
We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
It emphasises that they are treating it as a divorce settlement, not a trade negotiation.
No doubt, but that's a typical example of a battle plan which won't survive contact with the enemy. What on earth do they expect to happen when we answer (very reasonably) that we can't comment of issues such as payments into EU programmes or the rights of EU citizens in the UK until we know what the trade relationship is going to be?
Also, the first tab from this box now goes to signing out, rather than posting... it's bloody irksome.
Dollar is rising more than anything else so Sterling is falling too, but in relative terms the fall hasn't been as bad for Sterling because there was a recovery over the last few weeks. The Euro has been falling ever since Trump won and now it's crashing.
It emphasises that they are treating it as a divorce settlement, not a trade negotiation.
No doubt, but that's a typical example of a battle plan which won't survive contact with the enemy. What on earth do they expect to happen when we answer (very reasonably) that we can't comment of issues such as payments into EU programmes or the rights of EU citizens in the UK until we know what the trade relationship is going to be?
It's a game of brinkmanship we are ill-equipped to win.
we can't comment of issues such as payments into EU programmes or the rights of EU citizens in the UK until we know what the trade relationship is going to be?
I am struggling to see how citizen's rights is a "winner" for the UK.
I think the EU would be quite happy to send home the Brits abroad, and whereas each country might have an interest in keeping their citizens in the UK, I don't see a collective EU advantage
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
*trivial.
*No pay rise for a decade/decreased job security
.. and why harangue people like this as if you have discovered a killer tactic that wins you the argument? People that were never going to marry someone of the same sex may vote for gay marriage, people that are earn a lot of money may vote for a rise in income tax, personal gratification or lack of is neither here nor there.
I'm not ha
I keep on banging on about it because the illogicality does my head in and no one can quite put their finger on why they voted to leave that stands up to any sensible scrutiny. Not you and the phantom wage depression, nor Tyndall with his nebulous idea of sovereignty.
You seem to want a pick a fight, anns changing rapidly, increasing their anxiety.
When they complained, at best no one listened, at worst they were called racist/little Englanders by people with no experience of the lifestyle they had.
They had the chance to vote and they took it, and that's that.
picking a fight = discussing = PB. I know you had a short break but that's what happens on here.
Wages are growing, btw - a Leaver on here criticised the BBC for referring to the 2.5% rise as small only today.
But you prove my point. People experiencing wage stagnation and job insecurity are scared, or feel themselves ill-prepared for the complicated, globalised world and wanted to try to do something Canute-like to stop it. Thing is, it's not the EU that is responsible and they can't stop it, whether we're in or out. It's just the way the world is. Or would you like to reopen the mines? I know you were a Labour man.
And as for changing communities, yes there has been some of that, the odd Polish supermarket, but I'm pretty sure that the type of change you describe and dislike so intensely isn't coming from EU immigrants, now is it, Sam?
Also, the first tab from this box now goes to signing out, rather than posting... it's bloody irksome.
Dollar is rising more than anything else so Sterling is falling too, but in relative terms the fall hasn't been as bad for Sterling because there was a recovery over the last few weeks. The Euro has been falling ever since Trump won and now it's crashing.
Also, the first tab from this box now goes to signing out, rather than posting... it's bloody irksome.
Because US interest rates are increasing the dollar is strengthening against the Euro and the pound sterling today.
Not sure why this wasn't anticipated in previous days and onkly happened today.
I think the difference is that now people believe Yellen's forward guidance about 3 rises next year whereas before the default assumption was that the central banks were just jawboning.
It emphasises that they are treating it as a divorce settlement, not a trade negotiation.
No doubt, but that's a typical example of a battle plan which won't survive contact with the enemy. What on earth do they expect to happen when we answer (very reasonably) that we can't comment of issues such as payments into EU programmes or the rights of EU citizens in the UK until we know what the trade relationship is going to be?
The EU negotiators are as clueless and behind the curve as the British government. This does not, however, instil me with any more confidence.
Alastair Meeks: "No, the reason I dislike Brexit so much is because it is spawned by a repulsive xenophobia, a barely suppressed hatred of foreigners (be they immigrants, other Europeans or Muslims) and dressed up as patriotism. Vile and immoral gurning dullards have dared to take my identity as a Briton and have turned it into something backward-looking, racist, dreary and frightened.
It sickens me. People like you sicken me. Your crazed monomania has destroyed the dignity of this once-decent country.
So no, why do I dislike Brexit so much? It's because of odious shits like you."
You do realise that it is democracy you are shaking your fist against?
If all these issues were as you paint them, then I can see that - having been unable to articulate persuasive counter-arguments during the referendum campaign - that is going to hurt. Staying in the EU was such a slam dunk, yet you still couldn't find the hoop.
Maybe you should take some time off, to reflect why you were such a poor advocate. That your failure to win the argument has destroyed the dignity of this once-decent country. What with you being a lawyer and that.
I repeatedly noted in the referendum campaign that if Leave were to stand a chance of winning it was by majoring on immigration. That makes it no less ugly and the people who were content to do so no less morally disgraced.
I have no doubt that eventually some of the thoughtful Leavers will feel a burning shame for ever having been associated with the campaign that they fought for.
I'd do it all over again.
I'd do it every day and twice on a Sunday. Burning shame? Bugger off.
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
*trivial.
*No pay rise for a decade/decreased job security
.
I'm not ha
.
You seem to want a pick a fight, anns changing rapidly, increasing their anxiety.
When they complained, at best no one listened, at worst they were called racist/little Englanders by people with no experience of the lifestyle they had.
They had the chance to vote and they took it, and that's that.
picking a fight = discussing = PB. I know you had a short break but that's what happens on here.
Wages are growing, btw - a Leaver on here criticised the BBC for referring to the 2.5% rise as small only today.
But you prove my point. People experiencing wage stagnation and job insecurity are scared, or feel themselves ill-prepared for the complicated, globalised world and wanted to try to do something Canute-like to stop it. Thing is, it's not the EU that is responsible and they can't stop it, whether we're in or out. It's just the way the world is. Or would you like to reopen the mines? I know you were a Labour man.
And as for changing communities, yes there has been some of that, the odd Polish supermarket, but I'm pretty sure that the type of change you describe isn't coming from EU immigrants, now is it, Sam?
Wages for the people competing with EU migrants for low paid jobs is not rising at 2.5%
I am sorry to second guess insincerity, but I don't appreciate what appears to be patronisation wrapped in a a velvet glove. We disagree, fair enough. I don't see what you think you are going to get by carrying on and on? I am hardly going to say, "fair enough you're right, I don't believe anything I steadfastly believe" am I? We had a vote and one side won, the other lost, its really the end of it. I was away from PB for 9 months, in that time we had a referendum on the matter.. but you'd never know it.
I would like to see a degree of protectionism for lower paid workers though, wouldn't go as far as reopening the mines. Preventing immigration from anyone who will be earning less than the national average wage maybe?
It emphasises that they are treating it as a divorce settlement, not a trade negotiation.
No doubt, but that's a typical example of a battle plan which won't survive contact with the enemy. What on earth do they expect to happen when we answer (very reasonably) that we can't comment of issues such as payments into EU programmes or the rights of EU citizens in the UK until we know what the trade relationship is going to be?
The EU negotiators are as clueless and behind the curve as the British government. This does not, however, instil me with any more confidence.
Yes, there's a substantial risk of a fairly chaotic outcome which is in neither side's interest, not least because of the cumbersome decision-making process on the EU side. In fact, if anything, the UK's position is clearer and more coherent than theirs.
The line about the four freedoms being a pre-requisite to 'access' to the Single Market implies a hard line being taken. I can't see this ending well.
They're hardly likely to concede that before negotiations begin, are they?
Difference between 'access' and 'membership', as has been noted many times. Certainly membership of the SM was always going to have to mean signing up to all four freedoms but *access*?
I'd settle for full access to the Quote button in exchange for freedom of movement right now.
It emphasises that they are treating it as a divorce settlement, not a trade negotiation.
No doubt, but that's a typical example of a battle plan which won't survive contact with the enemy. What on earth do they expect to happen when we answer (very reasonably) that we can't comment of issues such as payments into EU programmes or the rights of EU citizens in the UK until we know what the trade relationship is going to be?
It's a game of brinkmanship we are ill-equipped to win.
So you claim but you forget the key fact that we are the ones seeking to make a move. This wasn't a fight the EU27 want so currently of course they're reacting like a deer in the headlights refusing to move. Once we make a move they will start to react too.
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
*trivial.
*No pay rise for a decade/decreased job security
.. and why harangue people like this as if you have discovered a killer tactic that wins you the argument? People that were never going to marry someone of the same sex may vote for gay marriage, people that are earn a lot of money may vote for a rise in income tax, personal gratification or lack of is neither here nor there.
I'm not ha
I keep on banging on about it because the illogicality does my head in and no one can quite put their finger on why they voted to leave that stands up to any sensible scrutiny. Not you and the phantom wage depression, nor Tyndall with his nebulous idea of sovereignty.
You seem to want a pick a fight, anns changing rapidly, increasing their anxiety.
When they complained, at best no one listened, at worst they were called racist/little Englanders by people with no experience of the lifestyle they had.
They had the chance to vote and they took it, and that's that.
picking a fight = discussing = PB. I know you had a short break but that's what happens on here.
Wages are growing, btw - a Leaver on here criticised the BBC for referring to the 2.5% rise as small only today.
But you prove my point. People experiencing wage stagnation and job insecurity are scared, or feel themselves ill-prepared for the complicated, globalised world and wanted to try to do something Canute-like to stop it. Thing is, it's not the EU that is responsible and they can't stop it, whether we're in or out. It's just the way the world is. Or would you like to reopen the mines? I know you were a Labour man.
And as for changing communities, yes there has been some of that, the odd Polish supermarket, but I'm pretty sure that the type of change you describe and dislike so intensely isn't coming from EU immigrants, now is it, Sam?
For me, Brexit means exactly the opposite. I see it as the beginning of the dawning of reality. I see the EU apart from anything else as a luxury we can no longer afford. We are not fit to win in the world you describe when we're little more than a big leaky money culender. Other countries - even relatively troubled countries like France, have a fundamental survival instinct that we as Britains have forgotten.
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
*trivial.
*No pay rise for a decade/decreased job security
.. and why harangue people like this as if you have discovered a killer tactic that wins you the argument? People that were never going to marry someone of the same sex may vote for gay marriage, people that are earn a lot of money may vote for a rise in income tax, personal gratification or lack of is neither here nor there.
I'm not ha
I keep on banging on about it because the illogicality does my head in and no one can quite put their finger on why they voted to leave that stands up to any sensible scrutiny. Not you and the phantom wage depression, nor Tyndall with his nebulous idea of sovereignty.
You seem to want a pick a fight, anns changing rapidly, increasing their anxiety.
When they complained, at best no one listened, at worst they were called racist/little Englanders by people with no experience of the lifestyle they had.
They had the chance to vote and they took it, and that's that.
picking a fight = discussing = PB. I know you had a short break but that's what happens on here.
Wages are growing, btw - a Leaver on here criticised the BBC for referring to the 2.5% rise as small only today.
But you prove my point. People experiencing wage stagnation and job insecurity are scared, or feel themselves ill-prepared for the complicated, globalised world and wanted to try to do something Canute-like to stop it. Thing is, it's not the EU that is responsible and they can't stop it, whether we're in or out. It's just the way the world is. Or would you like to reopen the mines? I know you were a Labour man.
And as for changing communities, yes there has been some of that, the odd Polish supermarket, but I'm pretty sure that the type of change you describe and dislike so intensely isn't coming from EU immigrants, now is it, Sam?
Oh as for your last point/sneer, it is a factor but I am not going to lie, you don't have to try to be super clever, Islamic immigration is a much much much bigger problem/worry. But there appears to be nothing we can do about that.
It emphasises that they are treating it as a divorce settlement, not a trade negotiation.
No doubt, but that's a typical example of a battle plan which won't survive contact with the enemy. What on earth do they expect to happen when we answer (very reasonably) that we can't comment of issues such as payments into EU programmes or the rights of EU citizens in the UK until we know what the trade relationship is going to be?
The EU negotiators are as clueless and behind the curve as the British government. This does not, however, instil me with any more confidence.
Yes, there's a substantial risk of a fairly chaotic outcome which is in neither side's interest, not least because of the cumbersome decision-making process on the EU side. In fact, if anything, the UK's position is clearer and more coherent than theirs.
It's ironic that a process that started because the UK knew what it didn't want, but not what it wanted, may come to be dominated by a negotiation in which the EU knows what it doesn't want but not what it wants.
It emphasises that they are treating it as a divorce settlement, not a trade negotiation.
No doubt, but that's a typical example of a battle plan which won't survive contact with the enemy. What on earth do they expect to happen when we answer (very reasonably) that we can't comment of issues such as payments into EU programmes or the rights of EU citizens in the UK until we know what the trade relationship is going to be?
The EU negotiators are as clueless and behind the curve as the British government. This does not, however, instil me with any more confidence.
Yes, there's a substantial risk of a fairly chaotic outcome which is in neither side's interest, not least because of the cumbersome decision-making process on the EU side. In fact, if anything, the UK's position is clearer and more coherent than theirs.
The other complication is that ultimately, on the UK side there is one party - the UK government (it may well have internal fights and a domestic battle on its hands, but at the end of the day, its got one voice) - while the EU is trying to hold the line that their only voice is the EU - lets see how long that lasts......there's 27 governments and 27 electorates that they ignore at their peril....
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
*trivial.
*No pay rise for a decade/decreased job security
.
I'm not ha
.
You seem to want a pick a fight, anns changing rapidly, increasing their anxiety.
When they complained, at best no one listened, at worst they were called racist/little Englanders by people with no experience of the lifestyle they had.
They had the chance to vote and they took it, and that's that.
picking a
Wages for the people competing with EU migrants for low paid jobs is not rising at 2.5%
I am sorry to second guess insincerity, but I don't appreciate what appears to be patronisation wrapped in a a velvet glove. We disagree, fair enough. I don't see what you think you are going to get by carrying on and on? I am hardly going to say, "fair enough you're right, I don't believe anything I steadfastly believe" am I? We had a vote and one side won, the other lost, its really the end of it. I was away from PB for 9 months, in that time we had a referendum on the matter.. but you'd never know it.
I would like to see a degree of protectionism for lower paid workers though, wouldn't go as far as reopening the mines. Preventing immigration from anyone who will be earning less than the national average wage maybe?
I'm happy that you don't say "fair enough you're right", although you should, because I am. But by the same token you wonder why I am not shutting up about it.
We are not refighting the referendum, we are discussing politics, of which most is today concerned with Brexit.
So you want British jobs for British workers? Great soundbite. And we have a minimum wage with a large nudge towards a so-called living wage. Not paying the former is illegal. Paying the latter is being encouraged more often.
We have low unemployment and if wages are stagnant in your sector then that is incentive to "upskill".
I would ask more about these changing communities you dislike so much but I guess if we develop that theme we actually will fall out.
"I would like to see a degree of protectionism for lower paid workers though, wouldn't go as far as reopening the mines. Preventing immigration from anyone who will be earning less than the national average wage maybe?"
That will mean a lot of care homes closing down and a lot of farms leaving their produce rotting in the fields and on trees.
I think we all need to accept that post-Brexit life is going to get a lot more expensive in many ways. For those who do earn a living that may not be a bad thing, if wage rises track or beat inflation. For pensioners, it is going to be very hard indeed, so we may all have to pay a lot more tax to make sure that they are looked after OK.
The Brexit situation is thus. The UK wants a "Canada" style preferential trade agreement with the EU. The EU won't necessarily be averse to that idea (AFAIK they haven't expressed an opinion), but as with all such deals it will take a decade or so to sort out. Preferential trade deals relate to your standard trading terms which will need to agreed unanimously at the WTO and are another complicated multiyear negotiation. In March next year we call Article 50, agree the separation terms, and maybe a direction (ie the Canada PTA) and maybe a transition arrangement. As noted, the transition arrangement will need to last ten years or more until the PTA comes into effect. Those will be ten years of uncertainty for businesses and individuals until they know how the PTA works out.
There will be at most a few months to agree a potential transition arrangement. In practice it will be one of two things:
(1) Minimal agreement. No meaningful trading deal with the EU or any other country (remember the WTO schedules haven't been agreed, so it won't be "WTO rules" either, at least initially)
(2) Minimal change. Carry on as at present for the ten year plus transition, with the "four freedoms" intact. And also some form at least of ECJ oversight.
At some point we and our government need to face reality.
It emphasises that they are treating it as a divorce settlement, not a trade negotiation.
No doubt, but that's a typical example of a battle plan which won't survive contact with the enemy. What on earth do they expect to happen when we answer (very reasonably) that we can't comment of issues such as payments into EU programmes or the rights of EU citizens in the UK until we know what the trade relationship is going to be?
The EU negotiators are as clueless and behind the curve as the British government. This does not, however, instil me with any more confidence.
Yes, there's a substantial risk of a fairly chaotic outcome which is in neither side's interest, not least because of the cumbersome decision-making process on the EU side. In fact, if anything, the UK's position is clearer and more coherent than theirs.
It's my default expectation. Time is short, the parties are ill-prepared and they don't seem inclined to want to try to understand each other.
The Brexit situation is thus. The UK wants a "Canada" style preferential trade agreement with the EU. The EU won't necessarily be averse to that idea (AFAIK they haven't expressed an opinion), but as with all such deals it will take a decade or so to sort out. Preferential trade deals relate to your standard trading terms which will need to agreed unanimously at the WTO and are another complicated multiyear negotiation. In March next year we call Article 50, agree the separation terms, and maybe a direction (ie the Canada PTA) and maybe a transition arrangement. As noted, the transition arrangement will need to last ten years or more until the PTA comes into effect. Those will be ten years of uncertainty for businesses and individuals until they know how the PTA works out.
There will be at most a few months to agree a potential transition arrangement. In practice it will be one of two things:
(1) Minimal agreement. No meaningful trading deal with the EU or any other country (remember the WTO schedules haven't been agreed, so it won't be "WTO rules" either, at least initially)
(2) Minimal change. Carry on as at present for the ten year plus transition, with the "four freedoms" intact. And also some form at least of ECJ oversight.
At some point we and our government need to face reality.
The insults could be good news. I think the remnant Remainers are finally getting it. Just like a dying candle splutters and flares as it goes out, so is the realisation coming home. We're free of the EU noose and raging at the dying of the light is their last response.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
*trivial.
*No pay rise for a decade/decreased job security
.
I'm not ha
.
You seem to want a pick a fight, anns changing rapidly, increasing their anxiety.
When they complained, at best no one listened, at worst they were called racist/little Englanders by people with no experience of the lifestyle they had.
They had the chance to vote and they took it, and that's that.
picking a
Wages for the people competing with EU migrants for low paid jobs is not rising at 2.5%
I
I would like to see a degree of protectionism for lower paid workers though, wouldn't go as far as reopening the mines. Preventing immigration from anyone who will be earning less than the national average wage maybe?
I'm happy that you don't say "fair enough you're right", although you should, because I am. But by the same token you wonder why I am not shutting up about it.
We are not refighting the referendum, we are discussing politics, of which most is today concerned with Brexit.
So you want British jobs for British workers? Great soundbite. And we have a minimum wage with a large nudge towards a so-called living wage. Not paying the former is illegal. Paying the latter is being encouraged more often.
We have low unemployment and if wages are stagnant in your sector then that is incentive to "upskill".
I would ask more about these changing communities you dislike so much but I guess if we develop that theme we actually will fall out.
You can say you are right, it is subjective. We had a vote, and more people agreed with me than you, but more people could be wrong than right.
The politics of today re Brexit is how "hard" or "soft" it should be, Given that whatever deal we reach can be altered either way by every future govt, I don't really care what the first deal is. I would have been happy for Cameron to stay on and negotiate an exit barely stronger than his "deal"
"I would like to see a degree of protectionism for lower paid workers though, wouldn't go as far as reopening the mines. Preventing immigration from anyone who will be earning less than the national average wage maybe?"
That will mean a lot of care homes closing down and a lot of farms leaving their produce rotting in the fields and on trees.
I think we all need to accept that post-Brexit life is going to get a lot more expensive in many ways. For those who do earn a living that may not be a bad thing, if wage rises track or beat inflation. For pensioners, it is going to be very hard indeed, so we may all have to pay a lot more tax to make sure that they are looked after OK.
I don't see why we need to accept that at all. Control over immigration means just that. If more immigration is needed (always assuming people wish to migrate here), we can have that. If the rate needs to be slowed, it can be slowed. The amount of wailing, gnashing of teeth and renting of garments over the basic and many would say essential concept that a country needs control over its borders is bizarre.
She has taken a job that doesn't allow party affiliation, so has resigned the whip. That's perfectly normal practice - lots of people have done it in the past.
"I would like to see a degree of protectionism for lower paid workers though, wouldn't go as far as reopening the mines. Preventing immigration from anyone who will be earning less than the national average wage maybe?"
That will mean a lot of care homes closing down and a lot of farms leaving their produce rotting in the fields and on trees.
I think we all need to accept that post-Brexit life is going to get a lot more expensive in many ways. For those who do earn a living that may not be a bad thing, if wage rises track or beat inflation. For pensioners, it is going to be very hard indeed, so we may all have to pay a lot more tax to make sure that they are looked after OK.
Or a lot more people doing low paid jobs rather than claiming benefits
The Brexit situation is thus. The UK wants a "Canada" style preferential trade agreement with the EU. The EU won't necessarily be averse to that idea (AFAIK they haven't expressed an opinion), but as with all such deals it will take a decade or so to sort out. Preferential trade deals relate to your standard trading terms which will need to agreed unanimously at the WTO and are another complicated multiyear negotiation. In March next year we call Article 50, agree the separation terms, and maybe a direction (ie the Canada PTA) and maybe a transition arrangement. As noted, the transition arrangement will need to last ten years or more until the PTA comes into effect. Those will be ten years of uncertainty for businesses and individuals until they know how the PTA works out.
There will be at most a few months to agree a potential transition arrangement. In practice it will be one of two things:
(1) Minimal agreement. No meaningful trading deal with the EU or any other country (remember the WTO schedules haven't been agreed, so it won't be "WTO rules" either, at least initially)
(2) Minimal change. Carry on as at present for the ten year plus transition, with the "four freedoms" intact. And also some form at least of ECJ oversight.
At some point we and our government need to face reality.
At some point the EU will need to face reality.
Sure but that's the EU's reality. I suggest we concentrate on facing up to our own reality. Which we are totally not doing at the moment
The EU 27 over dinner will be wanting to make sure that their lead negotiator, Michel Barnier, former European Commissioner, doesn’t just negotiate on behalf of the Commission but is closely in touch with individual member states. That, it’s explained, is the only way to have a hope of avoiding a ratification car crash which could scupper a whole deal or mean it drags on for a decade.
"I would like to see a degree of protectionism for lower paid workers though, wouldn't go as far as reopening the mines. Preventing immigration from anyone who will be earning less than the national average wage maybe?"
That will mean a lot of care homes closing down and a lot of farms leaving their produce rotting in the fields and on trees.
I think we all need to accept that post-Brexit life is going to get a lot more expensive in many ways. For those who do earn a living that may not be a bad thing, if wage rises track or beat inflation. For pensioners, it is going to be very hard indeed, so we may all have to pay a lot more tax to make sure that they are looked after OK.
Or a lot more people doing low paid jobs rather than claiming benefits
You missed yesterdays unemployment and record high employment figures then?
Immigration is high as the UK has lots of job vacancies, no one to fill them and good wages. This army of highly skilled spongers sitting around doing nothing and claiming benefits doesn't t exist.
"I would like to see a degree of protectionism for lower paid workers though, wouldn't go as far as reopening the mines. Preventing immigration from anyone who will be earning less than the national average wage maybe?"
That will mean a lot of care homes closing down and a lot of farms leaving their produce rotting in the fields and on trees.
I think we all need to accept that post-Brexit life is going to get a lot more expensive in many ways. For those who do earn a living that may not be a bad thing, if wage rises track or beat inflation. For pensioners, it is going to be very hard indeed, so we may all have to pay a lot more tax to make sure that they are looked after OK.
Or a lot more people doing low paid jobs rather than claiming benefits
You missed yesterdays unemployment and record high employment figures then?
Immigration is high as the UK has lots of job vacancies, no one to fill them and good wages. This army of highly skilled spongers sitting around doing nothing and claiming benefits doesn't t exist.
I remember the days when lefties dismissed Camerons job growth/unemployment fall as massaging due to "self employment" "ZHC" etc
Comments
So just 34% left to win over.
Although they may be losing Lib Dem Leavers and have to make up for these lost supporters.
That's way past next GE.
Fantastic opportunity here for LibDems.
It's very sad. What the referendum has exposed is the hatred for fellow-man hidden beneath the liberal façade of a very small minority.
We hold different views on some things, that's all. It really isn't a big deal.
Not sure Corbyn's open borders policy will fly well in the north.
Mr. CD13, the principle of people having honest disagreements after seeing the same evidence and hearing the same arguments is the basis of democracy.
It's just getting there that will be problematic.
We'll come through this, and hopefully together.
Or was it the diminution* in workers' wages that so angered you to action?
*trivial.
I don't have a quote button at all any more. Still for weeks now the only way I can log on from an iPad is by going through the forgotten password routine, and the system logs me off once or twice every day. Poor rcs mus be getting fed up sending me the emails.
https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3817/Perceptions-are-not-reality-what-the-world-gets-wrong.aspx
@KennyFarq: / Although one disadvantage would be that it accepted the true significance of welfare powers being devolved to Scots under Smith Agreement.
@KennyFarq: / Many of Sturgeon's supporters continue to believe these powers are meaningless. Or even that they don't exist.
Likewise x ∈ ℝ and s = x + iy?
After seeing that today the sooner we recover our self respect and leave the EU to descend into their own strife and internal power plays the better
What's your secret?
Which browser/operating system are you using?
I don't like doing that as it denies OGH the ad revenue. But until the quote button is back, I don't see another way.
No - I use vanillaforums. Click on my name, then click on "discussions", then click on the top discussion, then away you go.
.. and why harangue people like this as if you have discovered a killer tactic that wins you the argument? People that were never going to marry someone of the same sex may vote for gay marriage, people that are earn a lot of money may vote for a rise in income tax, personal gratification or lack of is neither here nor there.
"Which bit of the EU noose particularly affected your life."
Nothing, because I have far more serious things to worry about. Why did I vote Leave? Because the lies told in 1975 annoyed me.
Don't all politicians lie? Most are merely economical with the truth, because expecting to get away with bare-faced fibs is an insult to the electorate. Had Remain won, I'd have accepted it. That's a word of nine letters beginning with 'D' and ending in 'cracy'.
Hating others for their views is self-defeating. And if you're in a minority, pointless.
looks like a 1950s derelict cinema, - have they finished building it?
If they really think that free movement of people will fly in exchange merely for negotiation on access, I suspect that won't go down well in Blighty.
Be interesting to see how the electorate would react. Economic hardship, but also contempt and aggression from the EU.
UKIP might do well to invoke an economic Blitz spirit [I fear 'Britz' spirit may end up being coined...].
Might play well for May, perversely. A 'hard' departure from the EU, but her being forced into it, means she gets to blame Johnny Foreigner for any problems that arise, and her backbenches will be quite content.
Lib Dems may make hay but could overdo it and be seen to be siding with Brussels over Britain.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38327889
Plus the idea that EU immigrants have depressed the wages of the low-skilled is far from conclusive. Economic studies put it as less important a factor as many others.
I keep on at it because my belief is that voting Brexit didn't come from any reasoned analysis of where we benefit from and where we make compromises with the EU. It came from a desire to try to make sense of an increasingly unpredictable and challenging world (it is no coincidence that the Leave vote followed soon after the GFC). Leave's Take Control slogan was perfectly judged. It gave people the idea that they could indeed take control whereas in actual fact, not only was the EU not denying them control in any sensible terms (apart from droit de suite and another one or two non-issues), nor did it impinge upon sovereignty, as was proven by our vote to Leave. Whereas in actual fact they will still be as much at the mercy of governement, their bosses, a resurgent Chelsea as they were before.
I keep on banging on about it because the illogicality does my head in and no one can quite put their finger on why they voted to leave that stands up to any sensible scrutiny. Not you and the phantom wage depression, nor Tyndall with his nebulous idea of sovereignty.
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/809428106897399808
"Dulocracy?"
OK, I have to admit I had to google that.
The figures for Scotland are SNP 36 Con 30 Lab 16 – which I suspect has the SNP far too low and the Tories too high. The England data comes out at Con 41 Lab 30 LD 14 . The Tory 11% lead compares with a lead of 9.5% in England in May 2015 – implying a swing of just 0.75% from Lab to Con there.On that swing Labour would lose just 7 seats – and most of them are held by Labour MPs likely to enjoy a first time incumbency boost. Very few seats in England, therefore, might change hands at all! The sample size of those giving a voting preference is under 700. I am a bit suspicious of the poll to be honest – exceptionally good for the Tories in Scotland but rather reassuring for Labour in England!
Tariffs?
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means
Can you validate that? No - it's a belief about the future based on experience of the past.
It isn't phantom wage depression, it is a lack of a pay rise in a decade (actually a small decrease), while living standards rise, housing becomes more expensive etc etc.. added to this, the people experiencing this wage stagnation/job insecurity are at the same time finding their hometowns changing rapidly, increasing their anxiety.
When they complained, at best no one listened, at worst they were called racist/little Englanders by people with no experience of the lifestyle they had.
They had the chance to vote and they took it, and that's that.
Does this mean we all have to go via your discussion site and get approved? Are you a Russian hacker?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4035172/David-Cameron-peer-drops-Tory-allegiance-three-months-new-job.html
We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.
Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”
Also, the first tab from this box now goes to signing out, rather than posting... it's bloody irksome.
Second (actually third) video - 17 retweets, 38 shares....
But that's twitter for you.....
I think the EU would be quite happy to send home the Brits abroad, and whereas each country might have an interest in keeping their citizens in the UK, I don't see a collective EU advantage
Not sure why this wasn't anticipated in previous days and onkly happened today.
Wages are growing, btw - a Leaver on here criticised the BBC for referring to the 2.5% rise as small only today.
But you prove my point. People experiencing wage stagnation and job insecurity are scared, or feel themselves ill-prepared for the complicated, globalised world and wanted to try to do something Canute-like to stop it. Thing is, it's not the EU that is responsible and they can't stop it, whether we're in or out. It's just the way the world is. Or would you like to reopen the mines? I know you were a Labour man.
And as for changing communities, yes there has been some of that, the odd Polish supermarket, but I'm pretty sure that the type of change you describe and dislike so intensely isn't coming from EU immigrants, now is it, Sam?
I am sorry to second guess insincerity, but I don't appreciate what appears to be patronisation wrapped in a a velvet glove. We disagree, fair enough. I don't see what you think you are going to get by carrying on and on? I am hardly going to say, "fair enough you're right, I don't believe anything I steadfastly believe" am I? We had a vote and one side won, the other lost, its really the end of it. I was away from PB for 9 months, in that time we had a referendum on the matter.. but you'd never know it.
I would like to see a degree of protectionism for lower paid workers though, wouldn't go as far as reopening the mines. Preventing immigration from anyone who will be earning less than the national average wage maybe?
We are not refighting the referendum, we are discussing politics, of which most is today concerned with Brexit.
So you want British jobs for British workers? Great soundbite. And we have a minimum wage with a large nudge towards a so-called living wage. Not paying the former is illegal. Paying the latter is being encouraged more often.
We have low unemployment and if wages are stagnant in your sector then that is incentive to "upskill".
I would ask more about these changing communities you dislike so much but I guess if we develop that theme we actually will fall out.
That will mean a lot of care homes closing down and a lot of farms leaving their produce rotting in the fields and on trees.
I think we all need to accept that post-Brexit life is going to get a lot more expensive in many ways. For those who do earn a living that may not be a bad thing, if wage rises track or beat inflation. For pensioners, it is going to be very hard indeed, so we may all have to pay a lot more tax to make sure that they are looked after OK.
There will be at most a few months to agree a potential transition arrangement. In practice it will be one of two things:
(1) Minimal agreement. No meaningful trading deal with the EU or any other country (remember the WTO schedules haven't been agreed, so it won't be "WTO rules" either, at least initially)
(2) Minimal change. Carry on as at present for the ten year plus transition, with the "four freedoms" intact. And also some form at least of ECJ oversight.
At some point we and our government need to face reality.
At some point the EU will need to face reality.
The politics of today re Brexit is how "hard" or "soft" it should be, Given that whatever deal we reach can be altered either way by every future govt, I don't really care what the first deal is. I would have been happy for Cameron to stay on and negotiate an exit barely stronger than his "deal"
She has taken a job that doesn't allow party affiliation, so has resigned the whip. That's perfectly normal practice - lots of people have done it in the past.
https://www.channel4.com/news/by/gary-gibbon/blogs/eu-brexit-down-agenda-again-putin-at-top
Employment rates are high and unemployment rates are low. People will have to move to where jobs are. That's tricky on a low income.
Immigration is high as the UK has lots of job vacancies, no one to fill them and good wages. This army of highly skilled spongers sitting around doing nothing and claiming benefits doesn't t exist.