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  • Charles Delavan, a Clinton campaign aide, incorrectly legitimized a phishing email sent to the personal account of John D. Podesta, the campaign chairman.

    Oh dear, oh dear...

    Mr. Delavan, in an interview, said that his bad advice was a result of a typo: He knew this was a phishing attack, as the campaign was getting dozens of them. He said he had meant to type that it was an “illegitimate” email, an error that he said has plagued him ever since.
  • Patrick said:

    For that matter, Blair was the worst. He actively frolicked into Brussels, threw away half the rebate, and got nothing in return.

    Thatcher getting the rebate was probably the last good deal the UK got.

    Nonsense, your grasp of history of any era is rubbish.

    The Single European Act and Maastricht to name but two were good deals the U.K. obtained post Fontainebleau
    If Maastricht had been a good deal, we wouldn't have had 20 years of people pushing for a referendum to roll back ever closer union.
    Maastricht created the Euro. Which will come be seen as the folly which ultimately doomed the EU by future historians.
    It also created the EU. It was the EC before then.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    It rather plays into the idea that the Democrats can't be trusted with emails, doesn't it?
    Assume that anything sent by email might end up as public domain.
    Even in the days before email we were told 'don't write anything you wouldn't want to see on the front page of the New York Times.' Good advice then, good advice now.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Mr. Jonathan, I prefer coffee-flavoured, to be honest.

    Don't want Turkish Delight.

    Urgh, coffee flavoured anything ends up in the bin since my mum died. I hate them.

    Turkish Delight is fabulous - trying to make it really tricky, how it ever came into existence is a wonder. Mine was always rather hydrophilic and kept going sticky despite oodles of icing sugar.

    #PBSweeties
  • Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    TBF his Gmail account was secured by Gmail, which did all the right things. They could have had more security but it would have cost them efficiency, and inefficiency is bad. There's a practical limit to how far you can secure everyday communications, as Britain will find out ahead of 2020 when Fancy Bear release whatever they've got on the Tories.

    PS The bit where the DNC tech guy meant to say "this email is illegitimate" and brain-farted "this email is legitimate" shows why it's a bad idea to communicate in banal corporate bureaucrat-speak. He'd have far been less likely to bollocks it up if he'd set out trying to say something fruitier and more expressive like "this email is dodgy af".
  • Miss Plato, then if we ever meet and share mixed chocolates, the division will be a lot easier negotiation than the UK/EU one :p

    Tried blackcurrant tea the other day. Was horrendous. I have decided fruit teas are the work of Satan. Tea should be tea flavoured.
  • For that matter, Blair was the worst. He actively frolicked into Brussels, threw away half the rebate, and got nothing in return.

    Thatcher getting the rebate was probably the last good deal the UK got.

    Major got opt-outs from the Euro and Social Chapter.
    But thereby gave British consent to the creation of a Superstate on the continent of Europe - against 500 years of successful UK foreign policy. He should be burned at the stake. We could simply have avoided all the poison the EU has brought to British politics for decades if our miserable political class had followed the good instincts of the people and remembered that we are an island apart from the continent of Europe, with it but not of it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259
    PlatoSaid said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    Another random person took control of Podesta's AppleMail and iPhone - stuck it all on Twitter before deleting the entire contents to annoy Podesta.

    Anyone stupid enough to email their own password/username to a bunch of people is asking for it.

    Assange indicated that the DNC staffer murdered in a random street shooting was the source. It was a very small nod, but seized on. I've no view here - but being a source, and then shortly later shot in the back in broad daylight doesn't help to defuse motives.
    Funny no-one has picked up on this. Why do I get the feeling if the circumstances surrounding this shooting were to have happened in Russia, the conspiracy theory would have been splashed all over the British media?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    # It's starting to feel a lot like Brexit #
    # Rocking around the Brexit tree #
    # White Brexit #
    # I will be lonely this Brexit #
    # Happy Brexit, war is over #
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited December 2016

    Miss Plato, then if we ever meet and share mixed chocolates, the division will be a lot easier negotiation than the UK/EU one :p

    Tried blackcurrant tea the other day. Was horrendous. I have decided fruit teas are the work of Satan. Tea should be tea flavoured.

    I drink Earl Grey - black. I discovered that bergamot - the perfumey tasting plant addition dries your eyes out something chronic. Took me ages to work out why my contact lenses kept catching after a few cups. What a weird side-effect.

    I wear glasses when drinking it now :smiley:

    EDIT - hate fruit teas bar lemon.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,387
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    It rather plays into the idea that the Democrats can't be trusted with emails, doesn't it?
    Somewhat.

    Ironically, this is the sort of project for which they should have got a dedicated mail server, behind a VPN and firewall, with a white list of appproved and managed devices allowed to connect to it - exactly the same as any large company does!!!!!

    Hopefully politicians and staffers of all stripes will learn from this.

    1. Spend money on IT infrastructure and people, it can and will save your reputation. A mail server with support would have cost them no more than $100k a year, and the admin guy could probably have done a load more stuff with them at the same time - like secure their Dropbox or whatever, that they were lucky not to get hacked in the same way!

    2. Assume that anything sent by email might end up as public domain. Have secret strategy discussions as actual meetings or video conferences, rather than by long email chains.
    Don't they always meet on park benches or standing on bridges? Or is that just on TV?
  • Miss Plato, a lady with tea-spectacles is posh indeed ;)
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,420
    HYUFD said:



    Compared to hard Brexit or a Norway EFTA option a Canada style deal was the only one which had a majority saying it would respect the referendum result and be a positive outcome for the UK

    Just over 50% think a "Canada" deal a good outcome for the UK, with a large number of don't knows. Canada is vague. People project whatever they want onto it. Canada, as defined by Yougov probably won't be on offer.

    There aren't any good choices at this stage; only least bad choices.
  • Mr. Eagles, perversely, that may be skewed by Muslims living in enclaves. The recent Casey Report said some there believed 75% of the UK was Muslim.

    Actually, it didn't.

    https://twitter.com/miqdaad/status/808356465811554304
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    # Do they know its Brexit? #
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,387

    Miss Plato, then if we ever meet and share mixed chocolates, the division will be a lot easier negotiation than the UK/EU one :p

    Tried blackcurrant tea the other day. Was horrendous. I have decided fruit teas are the work of Satan. Tea should be tea flavoured.

    I suppose you only drink Yorkshire Tea!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,578
    PlatoSaid said:

    Charles Delavan, a Clinton campaign aide, incorrectly legitimized a phishing email sent to the personal account of John D. Podesta, the campaign chairman.

    Oh dear, oh dear...
    I can forgive someone making a silly click-error - never done it myself that I know of, but it could happen.

    Emailing your username and password to a bunch of people is cretinous. Who on PB would do this? It's worse than falling for a Nigerian Prince offering you £50m.
    From experience as that IT director, the C-Suite can have no common sense or understanding of the technology and the SOPs for using it, need to be walked through stuff very slowly to make sure they understand. This includes reasons for why we do things as we do, and the consequences of screw ups - which for someone with a public profile means having your emails/photos/contacts on the front page of the newspaper.

    Basic stuff, which the DNC utterly failed to implement properly.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,387
    Jonathan said:

    # It's starting to feel a lot like Brexit #
    # Rocking around the Brexit tree #
    # White Brexit #
    # I will be lonely this Brexit #
    # Happy Brexit, war is over #

    Cliff's classic:

    # Brexit time, Leavers do whine #
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,905
    Jonathan said:

    # Do they know its Brexit? #

    # Feed the trolls... #
    # Let them know it's Brexit time #
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    It rather plays into the idea that the Democrats can't be trusted with emails, doesn't it?
    Somewhat.

    Ironically, this is the sort of project for which they should have got a dedicated mail server, behind a VPN and firewall, with a white list of appproved and managed devices allowed to connect to it - exactly the same as any large company does!!!!!

    Hopefully politicians and staffers of all stripes will learn from this.

    1. Spend money on IT infrastructure and people, it can and will save your reputation. A mail server with support would have cost them no more than $100k a year, and the admin guy could probably have done a load more stuff with them at the same time - like secure their Dropbox or whatever, that they were lucky not to get hacked in the same way!

    2. Assume that anything sent by email might end up as public domain. Have secret strategy discussions as actual meetings or video conferences, rather than by long email chains.
    They never spend any money. Its amazing how people who should know better cheapskate on vital infrastructure.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,498
    Perhaps one of the reasons for that gap is that the problems associated with the Muslim population in the particular country is - or appears to be - out of all proportion to the actual number of Muslims in the country and, indeed, may feel intractable and/or to be getting worse. If you were French, for instance, after the last few years, you might well feel that you had (a) a large Muslim population; and (b) that some of them were a blithering nuisance, to put it at its mildest.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,387

    Jonathan said:

    # It's starting to feel a lot like Brexit #
    # Rocking around the Brexit tree #
    # White Brexit #
    # I will be lonely this Brexit #
    # Happy Brexit, war is over #

    Cliff's classic:

    # Brexit time, Leavers do whine #
    Did I really say Leavers?

    I meant to say Remainers!
  • Mr. Rentool, I'm not fussy, really. Beyond it being tea and not some fruity monstrosity.

    Mr. Meeks, cheers for that update. However, it may still be the case (or not, though it's plausible) that those in enclaves substantially overestimate the number of Muslims in the UK.

    Be interested to get hard facts on that, and corresponding data on large Polish communities (although I'd guess they're less prone to enclaves).
  • PlatoSaid said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    Another random person took control of Podesta's AppleMail and iPhone - stuck it all on Twitter before deleting the entire contents to annoy Podesta.

    Anyone stupid enough to email their own password/username to a bunch of people is asking for it.

    Assange indicated that the DNC staffer murdered in a random street shooting was the source. It was a very small nod, but seized on. I've no view here - but being a source, and then shortly later shot in the back in broad daylight doesn't help to defuse motives.
    Funny no-one has picked up on this.
    It's been extensively covered:

    http://europe.newsweek.com/seth-rich-murder-dnc-hack-julian-assange-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-492084?rm=eu
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Jonathan said:

    # It's starting to feel a lot like Brexit #
    # Rocking around the Brexit tree #
    # White Brexit #
    # I will be lonely this Brexit #
    # Happy Brexit, war is over #

    Cliff's classic:

    # Brexit time, Leavers do whine #
    Did I really say Leavers?

    I meant to say Remainers!
    a classic Freudian slip!
  • Jonathan said:

    # It's starting to feel a lot like Brexit #
    # Rocking around the Brexit tree #
    # White Brexit #
    # I will be lonely this Brexit #
    # Happy Brexit, war is over #

    Baby, it's cold outside (the EU).
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Charles Delavan, a Clinton campaign aide, incorrectly legitimized a phishing email sent to the personal account of John D. Podesta, the campaign chairman.

    Oh dear, oh dear...
    I can forgive someone making a silly click-error - never done it myself that I know of, but it could happen.

    Emailing your username and password to a bunch of people is cretinous. Who on PB would do this? It's worse than falling for a Nigerian Prince offering you £50m.
    From experience as that IT director, the C-Suite can have no common sense or understanding of the technology and the SOPs for using it, need to be walked through stuff very slowly to make sure they understand. This includes reasons for why we do things as we do, and the consequences of screw ups - which for someone with a public profile means having your emails/photos/contacts on the front page of the newspaper.

    Basic stuff, which the DNC utterly failed to implement properly.
    About a decade ago when I worked for the CTO of BT, the IT Corp guys cut off the research labs geeks as they were regularly breaching the security rules and exposing the other 80k employees to hacking.

    I saw all sorts of WTFery that literally ended up as Dilbert cartoons. Scott Adams clearly had several sources and for those in the loop, it was very funny.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    For PB

    # SO this is Brexit #

    and that lesser know classic.

    # A Trump is born #
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259

    PlatoSaid said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    Another random person took control of Podesta's AppleMail and iPhone - stuck it all on Twitter before deleting the entire contents to annoy Podesta.

    Anyone stupid enough to email their own password/username to a bunch of people is asking for it.

    Assange indicated that the DNC staffer murdered in a random street shooting was the source. It was a very small nod, but seized on. I've no view here - but being a source, and then shortly later shot in the back in broad daylight doesn't help to defuse motives.
    Funny no-one has picked up on this.
    It's been extensively covered:

    http://europe.newsweek.com/seth-rich-murder-dnc-hack-julian-assange-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-492084?rm=eu
    I mean here.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,384
    edited December 2016
    A wee, seasonal, bogof bogeyman gift for the Brexityoons.

    'Alex Salmond due to meet Jean-Claude Juncker in Brussels'

    http://tinyurl.com/h7xx6nz
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,420
    I'm Dreaming of a Blue, Red and White Brexit.
    Hard Brexit Everyone
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Jonathan said:

    # Do they know its Brexit? #

    # Feed the trolls... #
    # Let them know it's Brexit time #
    #Brexit day in the workhouse
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259

    A wee, seasonal, bogof bogeyman gift for the Brexityoons.

    'Alex Salmond due to meet Jean-Claude Juncker in Brussels'

    http://tinyurl.com/h7xx6nz

    Wouldn't like to foot that lunch bill.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Jonathan said:

    # Do they know its Brexit? #

    # Feed the trolls... #
    # Let them know it's Brexit time #
    # In the Brexit winter, frosty wind made moan #
  • Mr. Divvie, concerns must be raised that a smugological singularity could occur when Salmond and Juncker meet.
  • God help you merry gentlemen.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    # Do they know its Brexit? #

    # Feed the trolls... #
    # Let them know it's Brexit time #
    # In the Brexit winter, frosty wind made moan #
    :lol:
  • UK economy really in a holding pattern when it comes to employment and unemployment, a few people shuffling in/out of the workforce but not much else.

    Pay rises of 2.6% will however help them to outpace inflation, if indeed that rises.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,578

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    TBF his Gmail account was secured by Gmail, which did all the right things. They could have had more security but it would have cost them efficiency, and inefficiency is bad. There's a practical limit to how far you can secure everyday communications, as Britain will find out ahead of 2020 when Fancy Bear release whatever they've got on the Tories.

    PS The bit where the DNC tech guy meant to say "this email is illegitimate" and brain-farted "this email is legitimate" shows why it's a bad idea to communicate in banal corporate bureaucrat-speak. He'd have far been less likely to bollocks it up if he'd set out trying to say something fruitier and more expressive like "this email is dodgy af".
    There's always a line between security and efficiency, and a good IT department work with the business to manage that balance. Podesta was using a personal gmail account, on unmanaged machines connecting without a firewall or website logging software. It was a case of when rather than if he got hacked.

    Yes, other political organisations should take note of what happened to the DNC, they're the next targets.

    FWIW I think the 'illegitimate' story is retrospective arsecovering. He fecked up.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,784
    edited December 2016
    # Away from the EU /
    No Brussels no more /
    The Brexit vote happened /
    We'll see what's in store #
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    https://youtu.be/BBi-KXc0CRk

    We need a Christmas version...
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    OT

    Alan Ferrier
    Who would have believed that the perfect Wikipedia photo caption could have been improved upon? https://t.co/pLedKWbs1o
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,905
    Good piece, but 'US-based Russian journalist' would be a better description than 'Putin expert'. If a Russian described Owen Jones as an expert on the British establishment you'd wonder who they were kidding.
  • Jonathan said:

    # It's starting to feel a lot like Brexit #
    # Rocking around the Brexit tree #
    # White Brexit #
    # I will be lonely this Brexit #
    # Happy Brexit, war is over #

    Cliff's classic:

    # Brexit time, Leavers do whine #
    A revealing Freudian.
  • PlatoSaid said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    Another random person took control of Podesta's AppleMail and iPhone - stuck it all on Twitter before deleting the entire contents to annoy Podesta.

    Anyone stupid enough to email their own password/username to a bunch of people is asking for it.

    Assange indicated that the DNC staffer murdered in a random street shooting was the source. It was a very small nod, but seized on. I've no view here - but being a source, and then shortly later shot in the back in broad daylight doesn't help to defuse motives.
    Funny no-one has picked up on this.
    It's been extensively covered:

    http://europe.newsweek.com/seth-rich-murder-dnc-hack-julian-assange-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-492084?rm=eu
    I mean here.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3743880/Alone-bar-guzzling-beer-depressed-trouble-girlfriend-newly-hired-Clinton-campaign-staffer-Seth-Rich-refused-ride-home-staggered-shocking-death.html#ixzz4HhigFJBS
  • Patrick said:

    For that matter, Blair was the worst. He actively frolicked into Brussels, threw away half the rebate, and got nothing in return.

    Thatcher getting the rebate was probably the last good deal the UK got.

    Major got opt-outs from the Euro and Social Chapter.
    But thereby gave British consent to the creation of a Superstate on the continent of Europe - against 500 years of successful UK foreign policy. He should be burned at the stake. We could simply have avoided all the poison the EU has brought to British politics for decades if our miserable political class had followed the good instincts of the people and remembered that we are an island apart from the continent of Europe, with it but not of it.
    And if he'd vetoed it, the other members would just have created the Euro without us. No British PM could have prevented the development of the Euro and, hence, the proto-state the EU has become.

    But Major kept Britain out (at a time when the debate was almost entirely 'more Europe' or 'no more Europe', not 'less Europe'), and kept Britain within the Single Market (which still hadn't been concluded at the time).
  • Surely Leavers will be singing 'Je ne Bregret Rien'
  • Mr. Eagles, or an action slip.

    [For those unaware, the much-less-referred-to 'action slip' is when you just do or say something wrong, whether saying you want mushy peas when you don't, or putting the toothpaste in the washing basket].
  • Surely Leavers will be singing 'Je ne Bregret Rien'

    I always thought Don't Cry for Me Argentina would be worth a Brexit version

    Perhaps Don't Cry for Me José Manuel Barroso... the truth is I never left you?
  • A wee, seasonal, bogof bogeyman gift for the Brexityoons.

    'Alex Salmond due to meet Jean-Claude Juncker in Brussels'

    http://tinyurl.com/h7xx6nz

    Wouldn't like to foot that lunch bill.
    But he's such a hero:

    Through his leadership, he has helped transform Scotland into a fair, open and democratic society.

    http://www.ideasforeurope.eu/conference/coppieters-awards-2016-to-honor-alex-salmond/
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,578
    PlatoSaid said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Charles Delavan, a Clinton campaign aide, incorrectly legitimized a phishing email sent to the personal account of John D. Podesta, the campaign chairman.

    Oh dear, oh dear...
    I can forgive someone making a silly click-error - never done it myself that I know of, but it could happen.

    Emailing your username and password to a bunch of people is cretinous. Who on PB would do this? It's worse than falling for a Nigerian Prince offering you £50m.
    From experience as that IT director, the C-Suite can have no common sense or understanding of the technology and the SOPs for using it, need to be walked through stuff very slowly to make sure they understand. This includes reasons for why we do things as we do, and the consequences of screw ups - which for someone with a public profile means having your emails/photos/contacts on the front page of the newspaper.

    Basic stuff, which the DNC utterly failed to implement properly.
    About a decade ago when I worked for the CTO of BT, the IT Corp guys cut off the research labs geeks as they were regularly breaching the security rules and exposing the other 80k employees to hacking.

    I saw all sorts of WTFery that literally ended up as Dilbert cartoons. Scott Adams clearly had several sources and for those in the loop, it was very funny.
    Yes, certain departments are always trouble. Tech guys doing development or research are always pains in the proverbial, as are marketing and their need to move massive files and send out emails by the hundred thousand. Lab guys should really have their own separate network well away from the corporate one.

    Yes, one has seen loads of Dilbery cartoons over the last couple of decades. There was a good documentary about it on TV a few years back - 'The IT Crowd' I think they called it. ;)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,259

    https://youtu.be/BBi-KXc0CRk

    We need a Christmas version...

    Loved seeing that again! I for one will not be satisfied with a Brexit that does anything less than stop the EU taking all our FISH and MONEY.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Cyclefree said:

    Perhaps one of the reasons for that gap is that the problems associated with the Muslim population in the particular country is - or appears to be - out of all proportion to the actual number of Muslims in the country and, indeed, may feel intractable and/or to be getting worse. If you were French, for instance, after the last few years, you might well feel that you had (a) a large Muslim population; and (b) that some of them were a blithering nuisance, to put it at its mildest.
    Is it really so surprising that many people over estimate the number of muslims in these countries? I wouldn't say so, I would be surprised if they didn't

    Many of the main news stories of recent times feature Muslims, be it terrorism, Burqas, Trojan Horse schools, immigration, lack of integration. People overestimate the number of air disaters for the same reasons, people probably think there are more murderers and rapists than there are in fact as well

    When a new group of people arrive in the country and look different, dress differently, live by different rules, this is going to be heavily reported, and so it is natural to over estimate their number.

    If you took a photo in the street containing 100 people, 5 wearing Burqas and 10 wearing scarves, I reckon people shown the picture quickly would say more were wearing Burqas than scarves

  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    TBF his Gmail account was secured by Gmail, which did all the right things. They could have had more security but it would have cost them efficiency, and inefficiency is bad. There's a practical limit to how far you can secure everyday communications, as Britain will find out ahead of 2020 when Fancy Bear release whatever they've got on the Tories.

    PS The bit where the DNC tech guy meant to say "this email is illegitimate" and brain-farted "this email is legitimate" shows why it's a bad idea to communicate in banal corporate bureaucrat-speak. He'd have far been less likely to bollocks it up if he'd set out trying to say something fruitier and more expressive like "this email is dodgy af".
    FWIW I think the 'illegitimate' story is retrospective arsecovering. He fecked up.
    Agree - it's inconsistent with the rest of the email......

    If it was 'illegitimate' I'd write DO NOT CLICK THE LINK......not 'change your password'....
  • Surely Leavers will be singing 'Je ne Bregret Rien'

    I always thought Don't Cry for Me Argentina would be worth a Brexit version

    Perhaps Don't Cry for Me José Manuel Barroso... the truth is I never left you?
    Or perhaps a cover version of Amy Winehouse's classic, Leave Is A Losing Game:

    "One I wished, I never played
    Oh, what a mess we made
    And now the final frame
    Leave is a losing game"
  • F1: not really news, but I did like Rosberg's reaction to a rather obvious (perhaps stupid) question here:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38310503
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    It rather plays into the idea that the Democrats can't be trusted with emails, doesn't it?
    Somewhat.

    Ironically, this is the sort of project for which they should have got a dedicated mail server, behind a VPN and firewall, with a white list of appproved and managed devices allowed to connect to it - exactly the same as any large company does!!!!!

    Hopefully politicians and staffers of all stripes will learn from this.

    1. Spend money on IT infrastructure and people, it can and will save your reputation. A mail server with support would have cost them no more than $100k a year, and the admin guy could probably have done a load more stuff with them at the same time - like secure their Dropbox or whatever, that they were lucky not to get hacked in the same way!

    2. Assume that anything sent by email might end up as public domain. Have secret strategy discussions as actual meetings or video conferences, rather than by long email chains.
    Don't they always meet on park benches or standing on bridges? Or is that just on TV?
    Or use typewriters like that nice Mr Putin
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23282308
  • Surely Leavers will be singing 'Je ne Bregret Rien'

    I always thought Don't Cry for Me Argentina would be worth a Brexit version

    Perhaps Don't Cry for Me José Manuel Barroso... the truth is I never left you?
    Or perhaps a cover version of Amy Winehouse's classic, Leave Is A Losing Game:

    "One I wished, I never played
    Oh, what a mess we made
    And now the final frame
    Leave is a losing game"
    Or 'EU know I'm no good'
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Sandpit said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Charles Delavan, a Clinton campaign aide, incorrectly legitimized a phishing email sent to the personal account of John D. Podesta, the campaign chairman.

    Oh dear, oh dear...
    I can forgive someone making a silly click-error - never done it myself that I know of, but it could happen.

    Emailing your username and password to a bunch of people is cretinous. Who on PB would do this? It's worse than falling for a Nigerian Prince offering you £50m.
    From experience as that IT director, the C-Suite can have no common sense or understanding of the technology and the SOPs for using it, need to be walked through stuff very slowly to make sure they understand. This includes reasons for why we do things as we do, and the consequences of screw ups - which for someone with a public profile means having your emails/photos/contacts on the front page of the newspaper.

    Basic stuff, which the DNC utterly failed to implement properly.
    About a decade ago when I worked for the CTO of BT, the IT Corp guys cut off the research labs geeks as they were regularly breaching the security rules and exposing the other 80k employees to hacking.

    I saw all sorts of WTFery that literally ended up as Dilbert cartoons. Scott Adams clearly had several sources and for those in the loop, it was very funny.
    Yes, certain departments are always trouble. Tech guys doing development or research are always pains in the proverbial, as are marketing and their need to move massive files and send out emails by the hundred thousand. Lab guys should really have their own separate network well away from the corporate one.

    Yes, one has seen loads of Dilbery cartoons over the last couple of decades. There was a good documentary about it on TV a few years back - 'The IT Crowd' I think they called it. ;)
    I used to get more annoyed by marketing peeps breaking regulations and offering stuff we simply couldn't deliver.

    Before BT, I was at Mercury and it was a nightmare.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,578

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    TBF his Gmail account was secured by Gmail, which did all the right things. They could have had more security but it would have cost them efficiency, and inefficiency is bad. There's a practical limit to how far you can secure everyday communications, as Britain will find out ahead of 2020 when Fancy Bear release whatever they've got on the Tories.

    PS The bit where the DNC tech guy meant to say "this email is illegitimate" and brain-farted "this email is legitimate" shows why it's a bad idea to communicate in banal corporate bureaucrat-speak. He'd have far been less likely to bollocks it up if he'd set out trying to say something fruitier and more expressive like "this email is dodgy af".
    FWIW I think the 'illegitimate' story is retrospective arsecovering. He fecked up.
    Agree - it's inconsistent with the rest of the email......

    If it was 'illegitimate' I'd write DO NOT CLICK THE LINK......not 'change your password'....
    Yes, and then I'd pick up the phone to the guy a minute or two later, and talk him through the password reset process. Emails like that are big red alarms - or should be.
  • Mr. Eagles, surprised you haven't gone Eurovision.

    Hard Brexit, Hallelujah
  • Patrick said:

    For that matter, Blair was the worst. He actively frolicked into Brussels, threw away half the rebate, and got nothing in return.

    Thatcher getting the rebate was probably the last good deal the UK got.

    Major got opt-outs from the Euro and Social Chapter.
    But thereby gave British consent to the creation of a Superstate on the continent of Europe - against 500 years of successful UK foreign policy. He should be burned at the stake. We could simply have avoided all the poison the EU has brought to British politics for decades if our miserable political class had followed the good instincts of the people and remembered that we are an island apart from the continent of Europe, with it but not of it.
    The other EU members are sovereign states, he couldn't have stopped them signing a treaty with each other. He could have forced them to use a separate institution for the Euro and the Social Chapter parallel to the EU, but that would have had the same outcome, except with less influence over it.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Surely Leavers will be singing 'Je ne Bregret Rien'

    I always thought Don't Cry for Me Argentina would be worth a Brexit version

    Perhaps Don't Cry for Me José Manuel Barroso... the truth is I never left you?
    Or perhaps a cover version of Amy Winehouse's classic, Leave Is A Losing Game:

    "One I wished, I never played
    Oh, what a mess we made
    And now the final frame
    Leave is a losing game"
    The late Colonel Abrams "Trapped" is more suitable

    "I guess Remoaners think that I'm not good enough for EU
    I can tell the way they act and their attitudes
    Oh, oh I'm trapped
    Like a fool I'm in a cage
    I voted out
    You see I'm trapped
    Can't you see I'm so confused?
    I can't get out"
  • Mr. Eagles, or an action slip.

    [For those unaware, the much-less-referred-to 'action slip' is when you just do or say something wrong, whether saying you want mushy peas when you don't, or putting the toothpaste in the washing basket].

    My favourite one of those was when I threw the empty yoghurt pot in the sink and the spoon in the bin...
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    edited December 2016

    umber of Muslims would probably halve if only observant Muslims were included too.

    #Muslimslikeus was quite fascinating on BBC2, well worth catching.

    Interesting.I read a copy of the Mail (and Sun) in a pub where I'd nothing else to do (intrigued to find I really disliked every article outside the sports section, unlike the Sun, most of which seemed relatively innocuous), and they were scathing about it with two angles - one, the predictable one that all these people were pretty horrible (ironically they picked on one cast member for being inufficiently tolerant of gay men, which you'd think the Mail might have been fine with), but the other being a more plausible one one that the producers had obviously picked a variety of people with extreme views who would make good TV.

    A less jaundiced view is intriguing - what did you particularly like?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,905
    edited December 2016

    Surely Leavers will be singing 'Je ne Bregret Rien'

    I always thought Don't Cry for Me Argentina would be worth a Brexit version

    Perhaps Don't Cry for Me José Manuel Barroso... the truth is I never left you?
    And from the same musical:

    # So what happens now?
    Another Brexit in another poll
    Where am I going to?

    Don't ask anymore... #
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Knowing me, knowing EU
    It's the best we can do.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    TBF his Gmail account was secured by Gmail, which did all the right things. They could have had more security but it would have cost them efficiency, and inefficiency is bad. There's a practical limit to how far you can secure everyday communications, as Britain will find out ahead of 2020 when Fancy Bear release whatever they've got on the Tories.

    PS The bit where the DNC tech guy meant to say "this email is illegitimate" and brain-farted "this email is legitimate" shows why it's a bad idea to communicate in banal corporate bureaucrat-speak. He'd have far been less likely to bollocks it up if he'd set out trying to say something fruitier and more expressive like "this email is dodgy af".
    There's always a line between security and efficiency, and a good IT department work with the business to manage that balance. Podesta was using a personal gmail account, on unmanaged machines connecting without a firewall or website logging software. It was a case of when rather than if he got hacked.

    Yes, other political organisations should take note of what happened to the DNC, they're the next targets.

    FWIW I think the 'illegitimate' story is retrospective arsecovering. He fecked up.
    Thereis a balance, but in my own line of employment sometimes the security is so cumbersome as to make the system unusable.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    I'm so Brexcited
    And I just can't hide it
    I'm about to Take Back Control and I think I like it
    I'm so Brexcited
    And I just can't hide it
    And I know
    I know
    I know
    I know
    I know
    I want Out
    I want Out
  • Mr. Eagles, surprised you haven't gone Eurovision.

    Hard Brexit, Hallelujah

    Actually if I get the time, one of Sunday's threads will be about the song Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen and a couple more of his tracks/lyrics, all about Brexit, it begins quite controversially.

    'For those of who consider Brexit and Trump political and moral syphillis, it truly has been a shit show of a year'
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,784
    Lennon said:

    # Away from the EU /
    No Brussels no more /
    The Brexit vote happened /
    We'll see what's in store #

    Verse 2/3:

    # With Boris as PM /
    We'd be in a mess /
    Theresa and Hammond /
    Pure greatness, no less #

    # Her brown leather trousers /
    Should be no concern /
    The Lib Dems must take heed /
    You'll not overturn #
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,498
    isam said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Perhaps one of the reasons for that gap is that the problems associated with the Muslim population in the particular country is - or appears to be - out of all proportion to the actual number of Muslims in the country and, indeed, may feel intractable and/or to be getting worse. If you were French, for instance, after the last few years, you might well feel that you had (a) a large Muslim population; and (b) that some of them were a blithering nuisance, to put it at its mildest.
    Is it really so surprising that many people over estimate the number of muslims in these countries? I wouldn't say so, I would be surprised if they didn't

    Many of the main news stories of recent times feature Muslims, be it terrorism, Burqas, Trojan Horse schools, immigration, lack of integration. People overestimate the number of air disaters for the same reasons, people probably think there are more murderers and rapists than there are in fact as well

    When a new group of people arrive in the country and look different, dress differently, live by different rules, this is going to be heavily reported, and so it is natural to over estimate their number.

    If you took a photo in the street containing 100 people, 5 wearing Burqas and 10 wearing scarves, I reckon people shown the picture quickly would say more were wearing Burqas than scarves

    Years ago at the place I worked, they did a survey of how many women worked there and how many were senior. The answers were not many at all to both questions. They then asked the senior men to estimate how many senior women they were and they all hugely overestimated the number. It turned out that they all knew the same 1 or 2 women MDs and thought that they must know only a few of them and that there were therefore more. It never occurred to them that they only reason these women MDs were so visible was because they were the only ones.

    If there are such problems associated with the relatively small Muslim populations these countries have, it does rather raise the question of whether it makes sense to permit their increase through immigration, unfair as that may be to individuals who do not create problems.

  • Mr. Eagles, that's just trying to goad people. In the loose definition used by an inept media, it sounds like a troll post.

    Mr. Quidder, they can be quite disconcerting (and irksome, depending what you screw up)...
  • Mr. Eagles, that's just trying to goad people. In the loose definition used by an inept media, it sounds like a troll post.

    Mr. Quidder, they can be quite disconcerting (and irksome, depending what you screw up)...

    As if I would troll/click bait people in a thread header.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,905
    Pulpstar said:

    Knowing me, knowing EU
    It's the best we can do.

    One for the Kippers who found a purpose in fighting Brussels:

    # It's funny, but I had no sense of living without aim
    The day before EU came #
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,498

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    It rather plays into the idea that the Democrats can't be trusted with emails, doesn't it?
    Somewhat.

    Ironically, this is the sort of project for which they should have got a dedicated mail server, behind a VPN and firewall, with a white list of appproved and managed devices allowed to connect to it - exactly the same as any large company does!!!!!

    Hopefully politicians and staffers of all stripes will learn from this.

    1. Spend money on IT infrastructure and people, it can and will save your reputation. A mail server with support would have cost them no more than $100k a year, and the admin guy could probably have done a load more stuff with them at the same time - like secure their Dropbox or whatever, that they were lucky not to get hacked in the same way!

    2. Assume that anything sent by email might end up as public domain. Have secret strategy discussions as actual meetings or video conferences, rather than by long email chains.
    Don't they always meet on park benches or standing on bridges? Or is that just on TV?
    Or use typewriters like that nice Mr Putin
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23282308
    I have just returned from a Cyber Crime Conference. One lesson I took away from it is that if you want to keep something secret (certainly on a personal level) use old-fashioned non-electronic methods. Not necessarily very practical in the modern world. But there you go. A shoebox in the attic with old-fashioned photos is less vulnerable than digital photos of your hanky panky on a phone, accessible to pretty much everyone as you sit in Costa Coffee.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    err new thread....
  • Mr. Eagles, David Cameron's 'Little Englander' phase didn't win him universal renown and unsurpassed glory.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Mr. Eagles, or an action slip.

    [For those unaware, the much-less-referred-to 'action slip' is when you just do or say something wrong, whether saying you want mushy peas when you don't, or putting the toothpaste in the washing basket].

    My favourite one of those was when I threw the empty yoghurt pot in the sink and the spoon in the bin...
    The sweetie in the bin and the wrapper in my hand.

    My best was during my A Level Chemistry practical. 3hrs of work - and I poured the contents of my experiment down the sink. It took about 5secs to register - I then I fell about laughing. There really wasn't any other response. I can recall it like yesterday, yet 30yrs ago.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,578

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    TBF his Gmail account was secured by Gmail, which did all the right things. They could have had more security but it would have cost them efficiency, and inefficiency is bad. There's a practical limit to how far you can secure everyday communications, as Britain will find out ahead of 2020 when Fancy Bear release whatever they've got on the Tories.

    PS The bit where the DNC tech guy meant to say "this email is illegitimate" and brain-farted "this email is legitimate" shows why it's a bad idea to communicate in banal corporate bureaucrat-speak. He'd have far been less likely to bollocks it up if he'd set out trying to say something fruitier and more expressive like "this email is dodgy af".
    There's always a line between security and efficiency, and a good IT department work with the business to manage that balance. Podesta was using a personal gmail account, on unmanaged machines connecting without a firewall or website logging software. It was a case of when rather than if he got hacked.

    Yes, other political organisations should take note of what happened to the DNC, they're the next targets.

    FWIW I think the 'illegitimate' story is retrospective arsecovering. He fecked up.
    Thereis a balance, but in my own line of employment sometimes the security is so cumbersome as to make the system unusable.
    Absolutely.

    It is of course, much easier to make the system almost unusable - from the perspective of the CIO trying to cover his own arse - than to work closely with users to understand their needs before designing appropriate system security.

    This, combined with huge legacy systems and equipment, civil service mentality, tight compliance and data protection rules, along with a reluctance to change anything, can indeed be a complete nightmare for those on the coal face.

    The way forward is to engage with senior IT personnel, but on your terms. You don't want to fill in forms, go to a 'workshop' or 'discovery day' - you want a senior IT systems bod to follow you around for a day and see how the systems interact with your daily routine. Good luck!
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    TBF his Gmail account was secured by Gmail, which did all the right things. They could have had more security but it would have cost them efficiency, and inefficiency is bad. There's a practical limit to how far you can secure everyday communications, as Britain will find out ahead of 2020 when Fancy Bear release whatever they've got on the Tories.

    PS The bit where the DNC tech guy meant to say "this email is illegitimate" and brain-farted "this email is legitimate" shows why it's a bad idea to communicate in banal corporate bureaucrat-speak. He'd have far been less likely to bollocks it up if he'd set out trying to say something fruitier and more expressive like "this email is dodgy af".
    FWIW I think the 'illegitimate' story is retrospective arsecovering. He fecked up.
    Agree - it's inconsistent with the rest of the email......

    If it was 'illegitimate' I'd write DO NOT CLICK THE LINK......not 'change your password'....
    Yes, and then I'd pick up the phone to the guy a minute or two later, and talk him through the password reset process. Emails like that are big red alarms - or should be.
    "You don't know me but I'm your IT guy, I'm going to talk you through your password reset process"...

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bm5BDM-CIAAxcSF.jpg
  • PlatoSaid said:

    OT

    Alan Ferrier
    Who would have believed that the perfect Wikipedia photo caption could have been improved upon? https://t.co/pLedKWbs1o

    I maintain the best caption is:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_McPherson
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,578

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    What a mess. I could have 'hacked' Podesta's emails, which were on an unsecured gmail account, which they got into by having him click on a link to a dodgy password reset site they'd set up.

    Given the amount of money in the DNC, their IT team were shit at setting things up, and shit at handling the problems when they occurred. They should have know that a political party would be a target for hackers

    No sympathy. At all.
    TBF his Gmail account was secured by Gmail, which did all the right things. They could have had more security but it would have cost them efficiency, and inefficiency is bad. There's a practical limit to how far you can secure everyday communications, as Britain will find out ahead of 2020 when Fancy Bear release whatever they've got on the Tories.

    PS The bit where the DNC tech guy meant to say "this email is illegitimate" and brain-farted "this email is legitimate" shows why it's a bad idea to communicate in banal corporate bureaucrat-speak. He'd have far been less likely to bollocks it up if he'd set out trying to say something fruitier and more expressive like "this email is dodgy af".
    FWIW I think the 'illegitimate' story is retrospective arsecovering. He fecked up.
    Agree - it's inconsistent with the rest of the email......

    If it was 'illegitimate' I'd write DO NOT CLICK THE LINK......not 'change your password'....
    Yes, and then I'd pick up the phone to the guy a minute or two later, and talk him through the password reset process. Emails like that are big red alarms - or should be.
    "You don't know me but I'm your IT guy, I'm going to talk you through your password reset process"...

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bm5BDM-CIAAxcSF.jpg
    Proper prior planning.....

    You make sure he does know you! The chiefs should know the IT director by name, and have his number in their phones well before he calls for something like that. This shit really isn't difficult, in any organisation. The DNC screwed up, and we all got to read Podesta's emails.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @megalomaniacs4u

    To many companies also skimp on training and planning, especially planning for a critical incident, which they regard as unnecessary costs. Short termism as ever in so many British industries.

    The design and testing of critical incident plans was something of an interest of mine a few years ago. At a dinner I was sat next to a fellow who over the years had built up a very good financial services business (employed sixty odd people) and I asked him what provision/planning he had made for if suddenly he could no longer access his business premises for more than a day. The answer? None. "Why do I want to spend money on something that is never likely to happen? I have been in business for forty years and that situation has never arisen". He had no off-site duplicate data storage, no plan for accessing alternative office space with access to all his critical data, nothing at all.

    Nine months later there was a fire in the building next door to his and the Fire Brigade wouldn't allow him and his staff into his offices for the best part of a week while they checked structural integrity etc.. Eighteen months later he had no business, but a lot of his former clients' lawyers wanted to talk to him.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    umber of Muslims would probably halve if only observant Muslims were included too.

    #Muslimslikeus was quite fascinating on BBC2, well worth catching.

    Interesting.I read a copy of the Mail (and Sun) in a pub where I'd nothing else to do (intrigued to find I really disliked every article outside the sports section, unlike the Sun, most of which seemed relatively innocuous), and they were scathing about it with two angles - one, the predictable one that all these people were pretty horrible (ironically they picked on one cast member for being inufficiently tolerant of gay men, which you'd think the Mail might have been fine with), but the other being a more plausible one one that the producers had obviously picked a variety of people with extreme views who would make good TV.

    A less jaundiced view is intriguing - what did you particularly like?
    The Black Comedian was a great bloke, with a big heart. Devout but not intolerant and a wise peacemaker. Apart from the zealous convert they were a pretty innocuous bunch, and often full of insight.

    As so often, converts seize on the externals of dress and rules without an understanding of the implicit internal way of life that lifelong believers have steeped into them. I see it in my own church too, and I speak as a convert of 20 years. I am just beginning to grasp some of the internals now, the externals were easy and obvious.

    I think the same goes for migrants to a country also, and one of the problems of citizenship tests is that these focus on externalities like language over deeper internal values.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045
    PlatoSaid said:

    Mr. Eagles, or an action slip.

    [For those unaware, the much-less-referred-to 'action slip' is when you just do or say something wrong, whether saying you want mushy peas when you don't, or putting the toothpaste in the washing basket].

    My favourite one of those was when I threw the empty yoghurt pot in the sink and the spoon in the bin...
    The sweetie in the bin and the wrapper in my hand.

    My best was during my A Level Chemistry practical. 3hrs of work - and I poured the contents of my experiment down the sink. It took about 5secs to register - I then I fell about laughing. There really wasn't any other response. I can recall it like yesterday, yet 30yrs ago.
    A colleague of mine some time ago recounted an incident that occurred while he was working with a lumberjack company during the break at University (he was Canadian).
    He would come home completely exhausted and developed a routine that the first two things he did every time he got in were to peel of his (now disgusting) socks, drop them straight in the washing machine, and go to the loo for a long wee.

    One day, on autopilot, he just managed to realise what he was doing and stop himself after unzipping at the washing machine and taking aim at the drum. He breathed a sigh of relief at catching it just in time before realising that he'd already flushed his socks down the loo...
This discussion has been closed.