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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What Corbyn’s re-election and the huge increase in membership

SystemSystem Posts: 12,264
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What Corbyn’s re-election and the huge increase in membership is doing to LAB as an electoral force

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Comments

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,382
    First, barring recounts.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,385
    Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

    With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,448
    edited December 2016
    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,913
    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's almost like he wants to lose the Sunderland seats.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,860
    Corbyn can't stagger on past 2017 can he? Even someone with his cataclysmic lack of self-awareness must realise the game is up.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

    With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

    Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake. We should all just sit back and let Jezza do what he does.
    Jezza why don't you ban the meat industry as well as the car industry - you know you want to!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    That's a bar chart to make a Lib Dem smile.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,944
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

    With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

    Could it be that he spends the next two years getting such a grip on the party that the moderates can't take it back, then steps down just before the election so a more electable left winger can beat a by then unpopular May?
    Nah.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    For anyone who missed Niall Ferguson in STimes, here it for free

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2016/12/12/was-wrong-brexit/P9xUZuE1OGjpkV1wxiZ79J/story.html?event=event25
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Morris_Dancer said:

    That's a bar chart to make a Lib Dem smile.

    That's a bar chart based on 3 by-elections including one in Richmond. It's an OGH headgasm of very very little relevance or meaning.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Dura_Ace said:

    Corbyn can't stagger on past 2017 can he? Even someone with his cataclysmic lack of self-awareness must realise the game is up.

    Tosh.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,387
    On percentage change, May's Tories doing far worse than Jezza's Labour!
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

    With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

    Or for evil?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Patrick said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

    With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

    Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake. We should all just sit back and let Jezza do what he does.
    Jezza why don't you ban the meat industry as well as the car industry - you know you want to!
    Labour are as relevant as the Lib Dems right now. I don't even think of what they'd say.

    This isn't good for democracy, but we are where we are. And it's all self inflicted via EdM
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    Wisconsin fully recounted, Trump pulls even further ahead

    http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/completed-wisconsin-recount-widens-donald-trump-s-lead-by-votes/article_3f61c6ac-5b18-5c27-bf38-e537146bbcdd.html
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,970
    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Miss Plato, I think Miliband deserves some blame, but the lion's share belongs to idiotic Labour MPs who failed to understand their own leadership rules.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,572
    FPT, for @David_Herdson

    I double checked sources for UK govt fuel duty receipts and the accepted 15/16 figure is 27.6bn - 5% of total govt receipts.

    Also add 5.5bn for VED revenue, for which electric cars are exempt.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/284323/united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts-fuel-duty/
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Pulpstar said:

    Wisconsin fully recounted, Trump pulls even further ahead

    http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/completed-wisconsin-recount-widens-donald-trump-s-lead-by-votes/article_3f61c6ac-5b18-5c27-bf38-e537146bbcdd.html

    Oh dear, this result has effectively ended the recount efforts of Green Party presidential hopeful Jill Stein in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Michigan.

    Wonder what she’ll do with all those left over $millions...
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,944
    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
    There are some electric cars that I would consider when my current one dies, the range is getting reasonable but they are currently too expensive.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,572
    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).
    When the EU banned light bulbs a year or two ago?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
    The focus at the moment should be on getting the diesel killers off the roads which is what Sadiq Khan is pressing for in London.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,899
    JosiasJessop said:

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

    It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    Who bears the risk of installing the EV charging points, and where will the energy come from? Tesla have had serious problems with chargers and several recalls. I look forward to hearing how much extra will be needed to replace the fleets of ambulances, fire engines et al.

    Cobyn and others will only be happy if consumers have the E-Trabant available.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Pulpstar said:

    Wisconsin fully recounted, Trump pulls even further ahead

    http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/completed-wisconsin-recount-widens-donald-trump-s-lead-by-votes/article_3f61c6ac-5b18-5c27-bf38-e537146bbcdd.html


    Perhaps Trump should start asking for a few recounts...


  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    MarkHopkins said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Wisconsin fully recounted, Trump pulls even further ahead

    http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/completed-wisconsin-recount-widens-donald-trump-s-lead-by-votes/article_3f61c6ac-5b18-5c27-bf38-e537146bbcdd.html


    Perhaps Trump should start asking for a few recounts...


    I realise that is not an entirely serious suggestion, but Trump's was by far the most efficient vote, there were several narrow wins and few if any narrow defeats.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,572
    edited December 2016
    logical_song said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
    There are some electric cars that I would consider when my current one dies, the range is getting reasonable but they are currently too expensive.
    The forthcoming Tesla Model 3 is looking like the game-changer for electric cars, but it's not due for another year and the first couple of years' production are sold out - at $35-40k (add 10% duty and VAT for the UK) less any subsidies.

    Still double the price of a Focus or Golf though.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited December 2016
    The Great Horse Manure Crisis of 1894 was mentioned on the last thread. This was a thing of which I had not heard. As ever, Google was my friend.

    http://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/

    "Horse carcasses therefore also had to be removed from the streets. The bodies were often left to putrefy so the corpses could be more easily sawn into pieces for removal." - thank goodness for Henry Ford.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,899
    dr_spyn said:

    Cobyn and others will only be happy if consumers have the E-Trabant available.

    The plan is probably to get Theresa May to give a bribe to Tesla to build a factory here, and then nationalise it once they gain power. :)
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,120
    O/T so early......it is a given that Corbyn is a loser whichever way you look at it.

    What do Trump and May have in common? I think both are finding the reality of being a leader much worse than their fantasy. Sore winners who cannot take criticism.

    As much as I don't like the British public school system, it trains people for the rigours of political leadership, thickens the skin so so speak... Cameron, Blair, Johnson, Osborne and even Farage.

    Despite Cameron being an unmitigated disaster delivering us the chaos of Brexit, and saddling Europe with a lawless Libya...his 2 defining policies....I miss his sunny personality.

  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,070
    PlatoSaid said:

    Patrick said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

    With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

    Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake. We should all just sit back and let Jezza do what he does.
    Jezza why don't you ban the meat industry as well as the car industry - you know you want to!
    Labour are as relevant as the Lib Dems right now. I don't even think of what they'd say.

    This isn't good for democracy, but we are where we are. And it's all self inflicted via EdM
    I was a very regular poster in the very early days of PB, but sadly through time commitments became a lurker, with a few aborted attempts to come back.

    Plato, I note you say 'I don't even think of what they say'. I also note you have said the same sort of thing a lot about various commentators, media outlets, etc recently, in particular during the US election. You refer to not even reading them now. How do you get a balanced view on things if you don't read stuff you don't agree with even if you think they are talking rubbish.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    Sandpit said:

    logical_song said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
    There are some electric cars that I would consider when my current one dies, the range is getting reasonable but they are currently too expensive.
    The forthcoming Tesla Model 3 is looking like the game-changer for electric cars, but it's not due for another year and the first couple of years' production are sold out - at $35-40k (add 10% duty and VAT for the UK) less any subsidies.

    Still double the price of a Focus or Golf though.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
    I'm interested - if you are able to sell out 2 years in advance, is that not enough time to widen your supply chain? I know cars are more complicated than most things but that does seem like a long time.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,120
    On thread...OGH...I do like your updates on Corbyn. It seems that you view his continued leadership with even more incredulity and horror by the day.....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    edited December 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's almost like he wants to lose the Sunderland seats.
    Sunderland Central

    Target 136, ~ 13.4% swing needed for the Tories, ~ 15.6% for UKIP.

    The split opposition will probably save Labour here.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    edited December 2016
    MikeSmithson said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
    The focus at the moment should be on getting the diesel killers off the roads which is what Sadiq Khan is pressing for in London.

    Don't mention diesel powered trains coming into London, or diesel engines on boats on The Thames. How many diesel ambulances, fire engines, police cars, delivery vehicles are there in use in London?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,970
    Sandpit said:

    logical_song said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
    There are some electric cars that I would consider when my current one dies, the range is getting reasonable but they are currently too expensive.
    The forthcoming Tesla Model 3 is looking like the game-changer for electric cars, but it's not due for another year and the first couple of years' production are sold out - at $35-40k (add VAT for the UK) less any subsidies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
    Still got a heck of a long way to go from the Tesla 3 starting price of ~£24,000 before they reach the prices of the majority best-selling cars in the UK. And subsidies should not be removed, as they are still a cost.

    http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/reviews/recommended/best-selling-cars
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,992
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

    With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

    Strictly speaking, that's not true. All the leaders pre-1918 engaged in electoral pacts with the Liberals, where Labour was the junior partner and contested a relatively small number of seats. Labour sought to exercise power by influencing the Liberals via their parliamentary delegation (particularly when the Libs didn't have an overall majority, as after 1910), and by influencing the political debate by raising issues they cared about. But they didn't adopt winning elections outright as a strategy until the back end of WWI, when the Liberals were (1) hopelessly split and (2) in coalition with the Conservatives.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Xmas joke I heard on planet rock.

    What's different about xmas dinner post Brexit?



    No Brussels.................
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,970
    williamglenn said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

    It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.
    Only if the electric cars perform as well as the current generation of fossil-fuel engined cars at the same price or lower.

    They're not there on range, and nowhere near on price.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    St. Nicola's big issue.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon/nicola-sturgeon-tempted-to-let-snp-candidates-stand-in-england-1-4316088
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,992
    On topic, what we really need to see is a contest in a close Con/Lab seat. Batley would have been fascinating had the Tories contested it, as they should have done.

    Labour's performance has been poor (and says something about their ground game as well as their strategy) but only in years like 1995 might they have been in with a genuine chance of winning Sleaford or Witney. They should, however, have (1) stayed in second, (2) increased their vote share and (3) cut the Tory percentage lead.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,572
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Sandpit said:

    logical_song said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
    There are some electric cars that I would consider when my current one dies, the range is getting reasonable but they are currently too expensive.
    The forthcoming Tesla Model 3 is looking like the game-changer for electric cars, but it's not due for another year and the first couple of years' production are sold out - at $35-40k (add 10% duty and VAT for the UK) less any subsidies.

    Still double the price of a Focus or Golf though.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_3
    I'm interested - if you are able to sell out 2 years in advance, is that not enough time to widen your supply chain? I know cars are more complicated than most things but that does seem like a long time.
    The problem is the batteries, and the company are opening a new state of the art 'Gigafactory' next year in Nevada, to produce them for the 3. Very new tech, and massive investment, but if it works it will be a huge game-changer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigafactory_1

    Ask Samsung (and Boeing) what happens if you rush out mass-production of new technology batteries without sufficient testing!
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    MikeSmithson said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
    The focus at the moment should be on getting the diesel killers off the roads which is what Sadiq Khan is pressing for in London.

    I hope he is more successful with that one then some of his other pledges.

    *cough* trees *cough* (for example)

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,385
    david_herdson said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

    With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

    Strictly speaking, that's not true. All the leaders pre-1918 engaged in electoral pacts with the Liberals, where Labour was the junior partner and contested a relatively small number of seats. Labour sought to exercise power by influencing the Liberals via their parliamentary delegation (particularly when the Libs didn't have an overall majority, as after 1910), and by influencing the political debate by raising issues they cared about. But they didn't adopt winning elections outright as a strategy until the back end of WWI, when the Liberals were (1) hopelessly split and (2) in coalition with the Conservatives.
    Yeah loose on my part, I should have said, every leader since Keir Hardie wanted to see Labour in government somehow?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,698
    SandyRentool said:

    On percentage change, May's Tories doing far worse than Jezza's Labour!

    Only if you include Richmond Park where no official Tory stood
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,970
    edited December 2016
    MikeSmithson said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
    The focus at the moment should be on getting the diesel killers off the roads which is what Sadiq Khan is pressing for in London.
    I can understand that, but I'm not sure how consumers are supposed to react to this new war on diesel, given just a few years ago they were being given incentives to buy them!

    Slightly tongue-in-cheek, how long before electric cars become the new enemy?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    logical_song said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

    With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

    Could it be that he spends the next two years getting such a grip on the party that the moderates can't take it back, then steps down just before the election so a more electable left winger can beat a by then unpopular May?
    Nah.
    /the shadow chancellor perchance?

    oh god, let them try that one
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Morris_Dancer said:

    That's a bar chart to make a Lib Dem smile.

    nah, the scale looks about right :-)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    edited December 2016
    JosiasJessop said:

    williamglenn said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

    It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.
    Only if the electric cars perform as well as the current generation of fossil-fuel engined cars at the same price or lower.

    They're not there on range, and nowhere near on price.
    I might get one for my next car, however I fully intend to get as near to 200,000 miles or so in my '09 diesel 207 as possible (65k atm).
    Am hoping perhaps the tech/price points/charging points have caught up by then...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    What happens if you put the London mayoral election in there.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    JosiasJessop said:

    Slightly tongue-in-cheek, how long before electric cars become the new enemy?

    When they start hitting pedestrians who can't hear them coming
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    Dura_Ace said:

    Corbyn can't stagger on past 2017 can he? Even someone with his cataclysmic lack of self-awareness must realise the game is up.

    Street protests and strikes will be the new elections.

    Voters just have false consciousness, best not to worry about them.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. Jessop, indeed. People will be very pissed off having been encouraged to buy diesels that they're now seen as horrendous.

    Mr. Herdson, I agree the Conservatives should have contested the seat but given the circumstances it would've likely still been nailed on for Labour.

    Dr. Spyn, well, more people might burn to death, but least they'll do so in an environmentally sustainable way.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    Scott_P said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Slightly tongue-in-cheek, how long before electric cars become the new enemy?

    When they start hitting pedestrians who can't hear them coming
    A silent menace. Electric cars are the future. But they are only as green as the fuel that they used to generate the electricity.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    JosiasJessop said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!

    It's another example of people betting the future on technology that isn't here yet. Yes, there are electric cars, but the ones that exist are at neither the price point or performance (e.g. range) to replace fossil-fuelled cars.

    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.
    The focus at the moment should be on getting the diesel killers off the roads which is what Sadiq Khan is pressing for in London.
    I can understand that, but I'm not sure how consumers are supposed to react to this new war on diesel, given just a few years ago they were being given incentives to buy them!

    Slightly tongue-in-cheek, how long before electric cars become the new enemy?
    Greens will go berserk as large areas are mined for Lithium, and ramp up environmental costs of mining, disposal et al.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,899
    O/T - Navalniy has said he'll contest the Russian presidential election.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. P, there's some discussion about deliberately making noise for electric cars. Hooves clopping could be one.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

    Oh, wait...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,970
    Pulpstar said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    williamglenn said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

    It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.
    Only if the electric cars perform as well as the current generation of fossil-fuel engined cars at the same price or lower.

    They're not there on range, and nowhere near on price.
    I might get one for my next car, however I fully intend to get as near to 200,000 miles or so in my '09 diesel 207 as possible (65k atm).
    Am hoping perhaps the tech/price points/charging points have caught up by then...
    The lifespan of electric cars (and particularly battery life) is another significant issue.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    edited December 2016
    JosiasJessop said:

    Pulpstar said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    williamglenn said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

    It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.
    Only if the electric cars perform as well as the current generation of fossil-fuel engined cars at the same price or lower.

    They're not there on range, and nowhere near on price.
    I might get one for my next car, however I fully intend to get as near to 200,000 miles or so in my '09 diesel 207 as possible (65k atm).
    Am hoping perhaps the tech/price points/charging points have caught up by then...
    The lifespan of electric cars (and particularly battery life) is another significant issue.
    Ah does it wear out ?

    Can it not be changed after say 7 years or w/e ?

    I mean I'll probably need to replace my clutch at 90 or 100k say..
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,063
    david_herdson said:

    On topic, what we really need to see is a contest in a close Con/Lab seat. Batley would have been fascinating had the Tories contested it, as they should have done.

    Labour's performance has been poor (and says something about their ground game as well as their strategy) but only in years like 1995 might they have been in with a genuine chance of winning Sleaford or Witney. They should, however, have (1) stayed in second, (2) increased their vote share and (3) cut the Tory percentage lead.

    Not sure I wholly agree. Richmond was always going to be a Zac/LD marginal and the Labour vote was going to be squeezed so we can put that to one side.

    Both Witney and S&NH survived the 1997 bloodbath so it would be a tall order for any party to take the seat even in a by election from the Conservatives. In Witney, Labour had always been second (except in 2010) but not far ahead of the LDs and the fact the LDs moved up to second isn't wholly surprising.

    As for S&NH, there were in effect four groups scrapping for the anti-Conservative vote (including the Lincs Independents). Even in 1997, Labour were 10% down if memory serves but I do agree they should have done better - it was a good result for the Conservatives but had there been a clear challenger with momentum it might have been different.

    I also agree the other parties should have stood candidates in Batley. Labour and the LDs stood candidates after Ian Gow was murdered by the IRA and while Jo Cox's death was no less tragic, I don't agree democracy is somehow served by not supporting the democratic process and encouraging the strongest plurality of candidates.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    There is a Tesla operating as a standard Taxi cab in Berlin. Whilst not perfect the torque was unbelievable. Killed all cynicism I had. The fossil fuel cars we passed might has well been horses and carts.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,572
    Scott_P said:

    Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

    Oh, wait...

    So, the first test for an electric car is to get from Brighton to London and back. ;)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. P, there's some discussion about deliberately making noise for electric cars. Hooves clopping could be one.

    There was some interesting research some years ago about the noises emergency vehicles make. Sirens are notoriously difficult to pinpoint directionally. So they experimented with farting noises, which are much better
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,899
    Delivery of Kool Aid for Mr Jessop...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Paging Southam...

    https://twitter.com/guardian/status/808567440036810752
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    This article was amended on 9 December 2016 to clarify that there is almost no capacity to store solar and wind-generated electricity to use later.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/08/electric-car-emissions-climate-change
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,241
    dr_spyn said:

    St. Nicola's big issue.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/nicola-sturgeon/nicola-sturgeon-tempted-to-let-snp-candidates-stand-in-england-1-4316088

    I think it would be fair to say the comments in general are not supportive......
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,385
    Bless,

    Yaya Toure has apologised for his drink driving conviction, stating that he 'unintentionally consumed alcohol'.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    This study on EV by Aberdeen Uni is interesting.

    https://www.theccc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/CCC-EV-pathways_FINAL-REPORT_17-12-13-Final.pdf
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    In the era of electric, driverless cars will trains still be a thing?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

    Oh, wait...

    So, the first test for an electric car is to get from Brighton to London and back. ;)
    That is easy for the range of several on the market now.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,970
    Pulpstar said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Pulpstar said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    williamglenn said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Also, are all petrol cars banned, or only new ones from being registered? If the former there'll be chaos and uproar. If the latter then grandfather rights will make cars purchased immediately before the ban rather valuable.

    It's the latter, but expect road tax to be gradually ramped up and the cars to become less and less viable as the refuelling network dries up.
    Only if the electric cars perform as well as the current generation of fossil-fuel engined cars at the same price or lower.

    They're not there on range, and nowhere near on price.
    I might get one for my next car, however I fully intend to get as near to 200,000 miles or so in my '09 diesel 207 as possible (65k atm).
    Am hoping perhaps the tech/price points/charging points have caught up by then...
    The lifespan of electric cars (and particularly battery life) is another significant issue.
    Ah does it wear out ?

    Can it not be changed after say 7 years or w/e ?

    I mean I'll probably need to replace my clutch at 90 or 100k say..
    Batteries have a certain number of charge/discharge cycles before their capacity rapiddly decreases; annoyingly, usage patterns can significantly alter them (software often limits the way devices are charged to compensate, by (say) preventing full discharge). They are also very temperature sensitive.

    Basically: if you get a petrol or diesel car you can expect the same range for the majority of its lifespan. With electric cars, the batteries start to degrade immediately, although at a low initial rate if used properly.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,551
    Scott_P said:

    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. P, there's some discussion about deliberately making noise for electric cars. Hooves clopping could be one.

    There was some interesting research some years ago about the noises emergency vehicles make. Sirens are notoriously difficult to pinpoint directionally. So they experimented with farting noises, which are much better
    I prefer the French sirens. No idea if they are easier to detect, but easier on my ears.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,572
    Jonathan said:

    There is a Tesla operating as a standard Taxi cab in Berlin. Whilst not perfect the torque was unbelievable. Killed all cynicism I had. The fossil fuel cars we passed might has well been horses and carts.

    The $120k P100D version of the Tesla Model S is an extraordinary car for acceleration. With four wheel drive it gets from 0-60mph in under three seconds, which eats most petrol-powered supercars.

    Here is the old P85D model just losing a best-of-3 drag race against a $300k McLaren 650s
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssSdA77GMU
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,769
    What ringtone have to downloaded for your car?
  • Hertsmere_PubgoerHertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!


    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    VHS and Betamax?

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Jonathan said:

    What ringtone have to downloaded for your car?

    Like
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The Conservatives have proved vulnerable in by-elections in the prosperous south. Treating Zac Goldsmith as a Conservative (which seems reasonable given how many Conservative MPs campaigned for him), both Richmond Park and Witney showed massive swings against the blue team.

    Sleaford & North Hykeham tells a very different story of a rural England that so far is content with the government. The country seems to be breaking up regionally in response to Brexit.

    In none of these places was Labour the alternative to the government. It has become irrelevant.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Dura_Ace said:

    Corbyn can't stagger on past 2017 can he? Even someone with his cataclysmic lack of self-awareness must realise the game is up.

    Nice name there Dura_Ace.

    I expect there must be (at least) two fables: one about how how someone who never gives up, loses, and another about how someone who is too thick to quit, wins.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,572
    philiph said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

    Oh, wait...

    So, the first test for an electric car is to get from Brighton to London and back. ;)
    That is easy for the range of several on the market now.
    Most of them can do 150 miles yes, but that's not the same as getting from London to Brighton and back, including slow traffic, heating or a/c as appropriate etc. The Tesla Model S could do it, but not anything cheaper without a very nervous driver for the last few miles.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,385
    https://twitter.com/agnes_guano/status/808613841609302016
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,992
    Sandpit said:

    FPT, for @David_Herdson

    I double checked sources for UK govt fuel duty receipts and the accepted 15/16 figure is 27.6bn - 5% of total govt receipts.

    Also add 5.5bn for VED revenue, for which electric cars are exempt.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/284323/united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts-fuel-duty/

    Ah, ok. I misread and was thinking of VED (which would have made the quoted figure about an order of magnitude out, had that been what it related to).

    Still, the answer, as always, to your original question - how to replace the loss of fuel duty - remains "tax something else".
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,551
    stodge said:

    david_herdson said:

    On topic, what we really need to see is a contest in a close Con/Lab seat. Batley would have been fascinating had the Tories contested it, as they should have done.

    Labour's performance has been poor (and says something about their ground game as well as their strategy) but only in years like 1995 might they have been in with a genuine chance of winning Sleaford or Witney. They should, however, have (1) stayed in second, (2) increased their vote share and (3) cut the Tory percentage lead.

    Not sure I wholly agree. Richmond was always going to be a Zac/LD marginal and the Labour vote was going to be squeezed so we can put that to one side.

    Both Witney and S&NH survived the 1997 bloodbath so it would be a tall order for any party to take the seat even in a by election from the Conservatives. In Witney, Labour had always been second (except in 2010) but not far ahead of the LDs and the fact the LDs moved up to second isn't wholly surprising.

    As for S&NH, there were in effect four groups scrapping for the anti-Conservative vote (including the Lincs Independents). Even in 1997, Labour were 10% down if memory serves but I do agree they should have done better - it was a good result for the Conservatives but had there been a clear challenger with momentum it might have been different.

    I also agree the other parties should have stood candidates in Batley. Labour and the LDs stood candidates after Ian Gow was murdered by the IRA and while Jo Cox's death was no less tragic, I don't agree democracy is somehow served by not supporting the democratic process and encouraging the strongest plurality of candidates.

    I think what we need are a couple of Northern Labour seats. Leigh will be one. Unless there is some kind of miracle and both Corbyn and McD retire from politics and the membership awaken from their dreaming it is clear there will be no swing from Con to Lab in GE, indeed, likely to be a few % the other way on current polling.

    We need some indication of whether the UKIP Northern attack has any legs.

    If it does we can start to think, as betting folks, of a pincer movement and a Labour wipeout on a scale not seen before.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,970
    Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!


    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    VHS and Betamax?
    That was a competition between two new technologies. I'm talking about a replacement; as if DVDs had been the dominant tech for a decade and was then replaced with VHS.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    kjh said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Patrick said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Every Labour leader since Keir Hardie have wanted to win general elections.

    With Corbyn I get the feeling is that he just wants to change the Labour Party for good.

    Never interrupt your enemy when he's making a mistake. We should all just sit back and let Jezza do what he does.
    Jezza why don't you ban the meat industry as well as the car industry - you know you want to!
    Labour are as relevant as the Lib Dems right now. I don't even think of what they'd say.

    This isn't good for democracy, but we are where we are. And it's all self inflicted via EdM
    I was a very regular poster in the very early days of PB, but sadly through time commitments became a lurker, with a few aborted attempts to come back.

    Plato, I note you say 'I don't even think of what they say'. I also note you have said the same sort of thing a lot about various commentators, media outlets, etc recently, in particular during the US election. You refer to not even reading them now. How do you get a balanced view on things if you don't read stuff you don't agree with even if you think they are talking rubbish.
    I pay a lot of attention to a wide range of views from activists across the spectrum - they point me to all sorts of stuff/opinions that I try to understand - even when I want to *close tab*. That's why I was pushing Trump - the MSM didn't want to listen/was riddled with confirmation bias that Average Person saw too.

    Trust is rock bottom - and without brand trust, what is the value of NBC et al?

    The MSM are still shooting themselves with the #fakenews meme. In their attempt to shutdown alternative views - they've managed to create their own version of McCarthyism, and stupidly Streisanded every *fake news* scandal they've pushed.

    Re research - it takes a bit of effort - or in the case of Trump, hundreds of hours of watching cable news/reading tweets/blogs/YouTube over several months. I used to work in PR because I've an instinct for which way the wind is blowing - whether it's left or right or something else. I like learning and understanding how people think, and how 50% of us believe the other 50% are wrong.

    Jonathan Haidt on TED is well worth watching on moral psychology.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Sandpit said:

    philiph said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

    Oh, wait...

    So, the first test for an electric car is to get from Brighton to London and back. ;)
    That is easy for the range of several on the market now.
    Most of them can do 150 miles yes, but that's not the same as getting from London to Brighton and back, including slow traffic, heating or a/c as appropriate etc. The Tesla Model S could do it, but not anything cheaper without a very nervous driver for the last few miles.
    I have found that a seasoned pair of legs and a well appointed bicycle can be good for one day distances of up to 250 miles. Food, lots of it, provides the fuel. You can carry it with you if desired.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,268
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    MarkHopkins said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Wisconsin fully recounted, Trump pulls even further ahead

    http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/completed-wisconsin-recount-widens-donald-trump-s-lead-by-votes/article_3f61c6ac-5b18-5c27-bf38-e537146bbcdd.html


    Perhaps Trump should start asking for a few recounts...


    I realise that is not an entirely serious suggestion, but Trump's was by far the most efficient vote, there were several narrow wins and few if any narrow defeats.
    Them Russkies sure know how to rig a vote.....
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,992
    Morris_Dancer said:

    [snip]

    Mr. Herdson, I agree the Conservatives should have contested the seat but given the circumstances it would've likely still been nailed on for Labour.

    [snip 2]

    Eastleigh wasn't for the Tories in 1990. I suspect it'd have been a Lab hold but with the right Con campaign - focussed on (1) the candidate and (2) the government's achievements, and not going negative on Labour - it could have been close.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,970
    Sandpit said:

    philiph said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:

    Of course we could reduce the numbers of cars if more people took trains...

    Oh, wait...

    So, the first test for an electric car is to get from Brighton to London and back. ;)
    That is easy for the range of several on the market now.
    Most of them can do 150 miles yes, but that's not the same as getting from London to Brighton and back, including slow traffic, heating or a/c as appropriate etc. The Tesla Model S could do it, but not anything cheaper without a very nervous driver for the last few miles.
    It's easy to get 300 miles out of our Jazz, and 600 out of our Passat.

    There are other issues, such as how people with on-street parking charge their cars.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Mr. Eagles, that's rather good.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,899
    JosiasJessop said:

    Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!


    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    VHS and Betamax?
    That was a competition between two new technologies. I'm talking about a replacement; as if DVDs had been the dominant tech for a decade and was then replaced with VHS.
    The initial smartphones were inferior at the function of being a mobile telephone but they still put Nokia out of business.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!


    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    VHS and Betamax?

    Early firearms and the longbow?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Bless,

    Yaya Toure has apologised for his drink driving conviction, stating that he 'unintentionally consumed alcohol'.

    Did he have a very heavy cold.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2934092/Night-Nurse-limit-New-drug-driving-laws-mean-drivers-face-ban-counter-medicines-make-drowsy.html
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,329
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Bless,

    Yaya Toure has apologised for his drink driving conviction, stating that he 'unintentionally consumed alcohol'.

    That's what I used to tell my parents!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/808616624613978112
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565
    Mike Smithson said:


    So this period since October when we’ve had Witney, Richmond Park, and Sleaford + Hykehem N is really quite unique.

    Welcome to North Hykeham. Most mis-spelled by-election location in a generation. Is it famous for anything else?
    Morris_Dancer said:

    That's a bar chart to make a Lib Dem smile.

    Are you kidding? Axes starting at zero, proportional bars, equally spaced - you call that a bar chart?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,075
    Inflation at two year high:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38300919

    Or "barely half the desired rate". We should take note of the direction of travel, but it's hardly astronomical.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,970
    williamglenn said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Hertsmere_Pubgoer said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Third - Like the car manufacturers when Jezza has banned petrol cars!


    I'm struggling to think of when an inferior technology last replaced a superior one (at least from the consumers' point of view).

    VHS and Betamax?
    That was a competition between two new technologies. I'm talking about a replacement; as if DVDs had been the dominant tech for a decade and was then replaced with VHS.
    The initial smartphones were inferior at the function of being a mobile telephone but they still put Nokia out of business.
    The initial ones were inferior - including ones by Nokia AFAICR. It was the iPhone that made the other functions worthwhile over the slight loss in telephony function (e.g. battery life). Mainly as telephony became very much a subsidiary function.

    But yes, that's a good answer to the question posed.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,551
    I have just topped up by bets on Clive Lewis being next Labour leader. Currently on BF he is just ahead of Starmer as the two favourites.
This discussion has been closed.