An interesting observation from the ever-excellent Andrew Sparrow on the Guardian live-blog:
Thornberry was forensic and effective, and her line of attack was interesting because it suggests that customs union membership, not single market membership, is now emerging as the key Brexit demand around which Labour is now coalescing.
Customs union membership does make a lot of sense, most particularly for the car industry, and Labour could very reasonably argue for this as their preferred form of Brexit. They'd get substantial support both from MPs of other parties, and from business (although not universally - the CBI is split on this point). At the very least it would be a defensible position for Labour.
Snap PMQs verdict: Theresa May won’t have to worry about being outshone by David Lidington. He did an acceptable job of not answering Emily Thornberry’s questions about Brexit and the customs union, but other ministers have flannelled on this subject with a lot more flair and Lidington’s final splurge of Labour-bashing, in his final response, didn’t really come off. Thornberry was forensic and effective, and her line of attack was interesting because it suggests that customs union membership, not single market membership, is emerging as the key Brexit demand around which Labour is now coalescing. Perhaps that is because some in the Corbyn team are ambivalent about SM membership, because of the restrictions it would impose on the use of socialist instruments like state aid? Overall, then, a solid win for Thornberry.
Is anyone clear whether the Tory amendment to the motion discharges the requirement for a commons vote, should they lose the court case? Personally I would be surprised.
Very few are arguing that a simple Commons vote is sufficient. The govt position is that it already has the power; those challenging it, on the other hand, believe that only a full Act of Parliament can undo the provisions of the 1972 ECA.
The amendment is about politics rather than process.
Mr. Eagles, you can't discount the events of 2016 when looking at earlier concepts. It's like when RTD buggered up Who canon with the Time War or when the new trilogy threw out the Star Wars Expanded Universe.
A thoughtful response...and I probably would agree with you over a pint.
Do you not think though that Brexit could be counter productive for the EU phobes? If Britain had stayed in, the EU was on the verge of collapse in the next years, a Grillo, or Le Pen away.
Now that Brexit will happen, the EU will learn from it's mistakes and thrive in the future. In effect Brexit has made it a loss less likely that the EU will collapse...and the UK will pay an economic price.
EU phobes were on the verge of their dream of witnessing the end of the EU. A little bit of patience....... pulling the trigger on Brexit could have set back their cause a generation or more.
"Now that Brexit will happen, the EU will learn from its mistakes"
Well, it's possible. More likely is that the Juncker Class will take the opportunity of the recalcitrant disembarking to push on even faster with The Project, ignoring the rising tide of Euroscepticism on the continent.
Steve Baker publically calls out a succession of BBC journalists for contacting him seeking to create and manufacture stories of back bench rebellion and demands BBC sticks to its charter requirements on accuracy and impartiality
Mr. Eagles, you can't discount the events of 2016 when looking at earlier concepts. It's like when RTD buggered up Who canon with the Time War or when the new trilogy threw out the Star Wars Expanded Universe.
Alas, poor Grand Admiral Thrawn.
No reason a version of him could not be used in a new continuity. Books and movies are different, as early star wars novelisations show only too well I understand. Like comic book movies,I imagine the movies will liberally pick the best stories and characters and incorporate them in some fashion.
There is a non-zero chance that a one line bill will be insufficient
We will have wasted 4 months before finding out, and lost government momentum in the meantime.
I would like to think that the government is using this time to sort out its negotiating position, though this is Fox, Davis and Boris we're talking about.
How long does it take to write a longer Bill, whip it through, threaten to deselect MPs on the Government bench who don't support it unamended and get Parliament dissolved if MPs cause delays or issues?
It depends what needs to be in it. If it needs to be "the Great repeal Bill", them months, or years.
Given the arguments presented to the High Court, I can't see that as being probable, surely? The category one rights (domestic rights for domestic people) would be the only thing in that category, and a statement in the Bill that existing rights conveyed will be brought into legislation, and for the avoidance of doubt, they remain in force by the authority of this Bill until that legislation is drafted and passed. If they want to be really picky about it, get someone to go through the list of rights conveyed by EU legislation and list them in an Annex with a link to the EU legislation in question, stating that they are expressed as of the date of drafting of this Bill. If that takes more than a day or so to put together, someone's being very inefficient.
The loss of category 2 and 3 rights are the entire reason for the need for the Bill in the first place, so its existence would satisfy the constitution - Parliament would have approved their loss.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
It's a case of delaying it enough and hoping (God forbid planning) that 'events dear boy' and economic headwinds result in strong and sustained reversals in popular opinion regarding Brexit, and there's widespread public appetite to 'make it stop' and 'do something', and we stay in - perhaps on the basis of EUref 2. The advance guard of breathless media stories on what slathering racist scumbags we've all suddenly become since the vote is obviously well underway. It's standard procedure.
It hasn't been delayed. TMay's plan was for the end of March and we're not even at the middle of December.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
I doubt anyone can answer that convincingly until the judgement in January.
In January. Govt win = zero delay. Govt lose = push a short Bill through Parliament. Three months to complete a task that can be completed in days. If Parliament does, bizarrely, play silly buggers, maximum of two weeks to get Parliament dissolved, 6 weeks to have new elections, push Bill through immediately and you've still got weeks of leeway before causing even one day of delays.
What's the route to incurring any delays?
Obviously it's not technically a given that they would be returned with a majority in the HoC... (stop laughing at the back) - so sorting out a coalition / supply and confidence agreement might be required and take time.
I think if Leavers are worried about losing an election to Corbyn - one that's specifically on the grounds of Brexit and where more than 400 constituencies voted to Leave...
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
I doubt anyone can answer that convincingly until the judgement in January.
In January. Govt win = zero delay. Govt lose = push a short Bill through Parliament. Three months to complete a task that can be completed in days. If Parliament does, bizarrely, play silly buggers, maximum of two weeks to get Parliament dissolved, 6 weeks to have new elections, push Bill through immediately and you've still got weeks of leeway before causing even one day of delays.
What's the route to incurring any delays?
Obviously it's not technically a given that they would be returned with a majority in the HoC... (stop laughing at the back) - so sorting out a coalition / supply and confidence agreement might be required and take time.
I think if Leavers are worried about losing an election to Corbyn - one that's specifically on the grounds of Brexit and where more than 400 constituencies voted to Leave...
Which Leavers are these? The LGBT partners of unicorns?
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
I doubt anyone can answer that convincingly until the judgement in January.
In January. Govt win = zero delay. Govt lose = push a short Bill through Parliament. Three months to complete a task that can be completed in days. If Parliament does, bizarrely, play silly buggers, maximum of two weeks to get Parliament dissolved, 6 weeks to have new elections, push Bill through immediately and you've still got weeks of leeway before causing even one day of delays.
What's the route to incurring any delays?
Obviously it's not technically a given that they would be returned with a majority in the HoC... (stop laughing at the back) - so sorting out a coalition / supply and confidence agreement might be required and take time.
I think if Leavers are worried about losing an election to Corbyn - one that's specifically on the grounds of Brexit and where more than 400 constituencies voted to Leave...
Which Leavers are these? The LGBT partners of unicorns?
Exactly. I don't think anyone on any side is really giving that much fear.
Comments
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/centers.html
Thornberry was forensic and effective, and her line of attack was interesting because it suggests that customs union membership, not single market membership, is now emerging as the key Brexit demand around which Labour is now coalescing.
Customs union membership does make a lot of sense, most particularly for the car industry, and Labour could very reasonably argue for this as their preferred form of Brexit. They'd get substantial support both from MPs of other parties, and from business (although not universally - the CBI is split on this point). At the very least it would be a defensible position for Labour.
Snap PMQs verdict: Theresa May won’t have to worry about being outshone by David Lidington. He did an acceptable job of not answering Emily Thornberry’s questions about Brexit and the customs union, but other ministers have flannelled on this subject with a lot more flair and Lidington’s final splurge of Labour-bashing, in his final response, didn’t really come off. Thornberry was forensic and effective, and her line of attack was interesting because it suggests that customs union membership, not single market membership, is emerging as the key Brexit demand around which Labour is now coalescing. Perhaps that is because some in the Corbyn team are ambivalent about SM membership, because of the restrictions it would impose on the use of socialist instruments like state aid? Overall, then, a solid win for Thornberry.
06/12/2016 Single To Win
Donald Trump @ 1/2
Time Person Of The Year
Time Person of the Year 2016 £34.08 Pending
(Less £2 saver on Putin @ 25s)
Thanks, @Richard_Nabavi
I wonder if you can fit a train in a screened room ...
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/674587800835092480
The amendment is about politics rather than process.
NEW THREAD
Alas, poor Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Well, it's possible. More likely is that the Juncker Class will take the opportunity of the recalcitrant disembarking to push on even faster with The Project, ignoring the rising tide of Euroscepticism on the continent.
He should have included Sky, Chanel 4 and ITV
The category one rights (domestic rights for domestic people) would be the only thing in that category, and a statement in the Bill that existing rights conveyed will be brought into legislation, and for the avoidance of doubt, they remain in force by the authority of this Bill until that legislation is drafted and passed. If they want to be really picky about it, get someone to go through the list of rights conveyed by EU legislation and list them in an Annex with a link to the EU legislation in question, stating that they are expressed as of the date of drafting of this Bill. If that takes more than a day or so to put together, someone's being very inefficient.
The loss of category 2 and 3 rights are the entire reason for the need for the Bill in the first place, so its existence would satisfy the constitution - Parliament would have approved their loss.
TMay's plan was for the end of March and we're not even at the middle of December.
I don't think anyone on any side is really giving that much fear.