My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
Though who will the backlash hit? quite possibly Mrs May and her ineffective turncoat Brexiteers.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
Hahah - have you all been given your lines this morning or something?
I fail to see how there will be a backlash against any __________ (insert whatever the oh so clever nickname-du-jour is for brexit campaigners is today), if we don't GET Brexit.
President-elect Donald Trump said Tuesday that the Tokyo-based parent company of Sprint Corp. has agreed to invest $50 billion and create 50,000 jobs in the United States...."
Plato once again so determined to be pro-Trump. Others are saying that pre-election the investment was announced to be £100 billion, of which this is part.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
Who were key to the Brexit winning margin?
I'm not seeing a cogent argument here. Can you expand?
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter.
I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit.
I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy.
Remainers are playing with fire.
I'd agree with much of that, from the other side of the fence. Pro-europeans can do a lot of damage with how they react to this. However from where I'm standing, the real issue is that I don't trust Theresa May an inch. She's claiming the referendum result means a lot of things just because she says so, and trying to get around any scrutiny of what she's up to. Opposing PMs is nothing new for me - but I've never had one whose values were so alien to me. So I'm hoping the courts will give her a smack on the fingers and force her to actually act in the interests of the country not just what she wants. And start to heal the divisions from the referendum she's shown no will or ability to so far. So for me, the initial judgement was very much in line with supporting the will of the people, rather than the Daily Mail's perspective.
I fear you have too much faith. Recent history has shown that MPs are mendacious liars and it is best to try and limit the mischief they can do. I truly believe that those wedded to remaining in the EU will use every ploy to delay and eventually frustrate leaving. The request for more detail on the negotiating stance is a transparent attempt to put more barriers in front of leaving as unreasonable/unacceptable amendments will be created
'A lot of people have said that it's not very attractive that this Court is full of old white men and we will at least see a female QC even if we don't actually hear from her'
The Liberal Democrats were rocked today after police were called in over the party’s 2015 General Election spending.
The Electoral Commission also hit Tim Farron’s party with the maximum fine of £20,000 for failing to properly declare all their spending in the poll, which saw their number of MPs slashed to just eight.
A probe found that a startling 307 payments, totalling £184,676, were missing from the Lib-Dems’ spending return without a reasonable excuse.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter.
I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit.
I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy.
Remainers are playing with fire.
I'd agree with much of that, from the other side of the fence. Pro-europeans can do a lot of damage with how they react to this. However from where I'm standing, the real issue is that I don't trust Theresa May an inch. She's claiming the referendum result means a lot of things just because she says so, and trying to get around any scrutiny of what she's up to. Opposing PMs is nothing new for me - but I've never had one whose values were so alien to me. So I'm hoping the courts will give her a smack on the fingers and force her to actually act in the interests of the country not just what she wants. And start to heal the divisions from the referendum she's shown no will or ability to so far. So for me, the initial judgement was very much in line with supporting the will of the people, rather than the Daily Mail's perspective.
I fear you have too much faith. Recent history has shown that MPs are mendacious liars and it is best to try and limit the mischief they can do. I truly believe that those wedded to remaining in the EU will use every ploy to delay and eventually frustrate leaving. The request for more detail on the negotiating stance is a transparent attempt to put more barriers in front of leaving as unreasonable/unacceptable amendments will be created
What's illegitimate about any of that? If leaving the EU has such deep support in the country then electing a majority government that is truly committed to it should be a doddle.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter.
I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit.
I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy.
Remainers are playing with fire.
I quite agree - if it's seen as a Remainer win, the nuance of legal process blah is lost a la Let Them Eat Cake.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter.
I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit.
I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy.
Remainers are playing with fire.
"subvert the will of the people" You missed the word 'half'.
It is not half - the last poll showed that 60% + support leaving now the decision has been made, and that is before this judgement if it over rules Theresa May
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Well if the PM's amendment passes with a big Labour backed majority tonight then yer average voter is going to wonder what on earth this supreme court case was all about other than insisting on a box ticking vote.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
As a special Christmas present I appear to have received a tax bill that isn't due.
Marvellous. Trying to hunt down the paperwork from my self-assessment (last one seems to have gone walkies). If it's NI, that's fine, but it appears to be income tax [which makes no sense]. *sighs*
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
Hopefully against the loonies, yes, but there's no stopping people thinking the legal case is about stopping Brexit entirely, even though it absolutely isn't (no matter that the claimants hope to use the opportunity for that end), the legal point is absolutely not about denying the referendum, but people think it is, and other people know it isn't but are pretending it is.
The case is utterly justifiable in my view, whether the government is right it has the power ir they are wrong, it is an important question which since raised needs an answer, and better an answer now. The idea people should not have been able to challenge the government on that point is repugnant. But it probably will lead to a backlash, it will be seen as judges trying to stop Brexit, and the government is probably loving that (May's comments previously bear that out, warning politicians 'and judges' not to stymie Brexit even though this case doesn't stymie anything if the politicians do as they should and trigger Brexit), and since they have a plan for a one line bill regardless, while they may think they can win, clearly they know it doesn't matter if they lose. We know some remainers are frustrated and want to get a move on, that they feel as aggrieved a some leavers at attempts to delay matters, and even though none of that is relevant to a point of law, the public won't see it that way, by and large. They don't trust judges or politicians, plenty of the latter are saying the court should not even hear this case even though the governemnt in court acknowledges is it perfectly reasonable for the court to do so, and we know what the media will say if the result is as currently expected.
The more anger, the more likely a Hard Brexit (already the easiest option).
'A lot of people have said that it's not very attractive that this Court is full of old white men and we will at least see a female QC even if we don't actually hear from her'
Extraordinary comment.
Even more extraordinary as you can already see Lady Hale on the Supreme Court bench.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
It will be targeted at the three Brexiteers for making a hash of the whole thing.
No it won't. Remainers are going to find a wave of anger coming their way from ordinary voters who will feel a great sense of injustice if the remainers prevarification causes the leaving to be delayed and even prevented.
It is wholly wrong for Gina Miller to be targetted and I condemn anyone who does intimidate her
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
A much more succinct version of what I feel the outcome will be. A lot of people are very wrong about what is happening, partly due to the motivations of the claimants in fairness, but won't care. People hoping for Soft Brexit may take a hit in the backlash, while those hoping still to Remain may briefly surge, but have their hopes dashed very shortly thereafter.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter.
I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit.
I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy.
Remainers are playing with fire.
I'd agree with much of that, from the other side of the fence. Pro-europeans can do a lot of damage with how they react to this. However from where I'm standing, the real issue is that I don't trust Theresa May an inch. She's claiming the referendum result means a lot of things just because she says so, and trying to get around any scrutiny of what she's up to. Opposing PMs is nothing new for me - but I've never had one whose values were so alien to me. So I'm hoping the courts will give her a smack on the fingers and force her to actually act in the interests of the country not just what she wants. And start to heal the divisions from the referendum she's shown no will or ability to so far. So for me, the initial judgement was very much in line with supporting the will of the people, rather than the Daily Mail's perspective.
I fear you have too much faith. Recent history has shown that MPs are mendacious liars and it is best to try and limit the mischief they can do. I truly believe that those wedded to remaining in the EU will use every ploy to delay and eventually frustrate leaving. The request for more detail on the negotiating stance is a transparent attempt to put more barriers in front of leaving as unreasonable/unacceptable amendments will be created
What's illegitimate about any of that? If leaving the EU has such deep support in the country then electing a majority government that is truly committed to it should be a doddle.
It's looking like Gina Miller and co may have saved Brexit after all, then.
After all, compare the following outcomes:
THE WAY THINGS ARE: - The case is taken to Court before Government tries to invoke A50. The High Court checks constitutional law and affirms that the constitutional requirements for the UK are that Parliament makes the official decision to withdraw. The Supreme Court either uphold or reject this. If they reject it, no delay, no issue. If they uphold it, TMay has three-and-a-half months to get a short Bill through Parliament whilst holding an absolute majority in the Commons and the moral backing of a referendum. It either passes easily or MPs block it; if they block it, she has plenty of routes to dissolving Parliament (even with the FTPA) in plenty of time to let the people kick out the blockers. No delay.
IN A WORLD WHERE THE REMAINERS PLAY CUNNING: - They wait for after March, and maybe into next year. Or even 18 months into negotiations and then bring the case. The law is the same, and the outcome is revealed similarly. It is found that this Member State has not followed the first provision of Article 50: "1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." A case is brought to the ECJ to block Brexit on account of Article 50 not having been lawfully invoked. The exit process is halted while the court finds - and given the law, it looks pretty clear. We're now deep into 2019 or even 2020. Article 50 has not been officially invoked and everything is a clusterfuck. Given the fallout and chaos, the chance of actually halting Brexit completely would be orders of magnitude greater.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Well if the PM's amendment passes with a big Labour backed majority tonight then yer average voter is going to wonder what on earth this supreme court case was all about other than insisting on a box ticking vote.
It was about the inner grief of a bunch of middle class liberals.
It's looking like Gina Miller and co may have saved Brexit after all, then.
After all, compare the following outcomes:
THE WAY THINGS ARE: - The case is taken to Court before Government tries to invoke A50. The High Court checks constitutional law and affirms that the constitutional requirements for the UK are that Parliament makes the official decision to withdraw. The Supreme Court either uphold or reject this. If they reject it, no delay, no issue. If they uphold it, TMay has three-and-a-half months to get a short Bill through Parliament whilst holding an absolute majority in the Commons and the moral backing of a referendum. It either passes easily or MPs block it; if they block it, she has plenty of routes to dissolving Parliament (even with the FTPA) in plenty of time to let the people kick out the blockers. No delay.
IN A WORLD WHERE THE REMAINERS PLAY CUNNING: - They wait for after March, and maybe into next year. Or even 18 months into negotiations and then bring the case. The law is the same, and the outcome is revealed similarly. It is found that this Member State has not followed the first provision of Article 50: "1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." A case is brought to the ECJ to block Brexit on account of Article 50 not having been lawfully invoked. The exit process is halted while the court finds - and given the law, it looks pretty clear. We're now deep into 2019 or even 2020. Article 50 has not been officially invoked and everything is a clusterfuck. Given the fallout and chaos, the chance of actually halting Brexit completely would be orders of magnitude greater.
I will be writing Gina Miller a thank you letter.
Expect the cops bashing in your door for a hate crime.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
Though who will the backlash hit? quite possibly Mrs May and her ineffective turncoat Brexiteers.
The backlash will hit anyone seeming to get in the way of Brexit, she is only in some difficulty if she wants a softer brexit (which I am far from convinced she does) and the hard brexiters successfully argue, as they have been attempting for months, that anything less than the hardest brexit is no brexit at all. If the backlash, for surely there will be one, agains tthe judges should they rule against the government, leads to a surge in support for the view that soft brexiters are, in their own way, trying to frustrate true brexit, then she will need to change tack quick. But I think while thinking they could win the case, May and co will be content if they lose, since they can put up hard brexit if they need to and suggest any mp voting against is going against the people, like the judges.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
The Brexiteer's biggest problem in the court case is that the referendum simply wasn't made legally binding (Which as I understand it is the crux of the matter to change it from a parliamentary to a government decision) It's a point that isn't in dispute by any of the sides, and one I'd conclude on balance will have to make the court uphold the High court's decision.
You could swap Pannick, Eadie or any other competent barrister for any of the arguments and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to the outcome. I reckon there'll be a couple of dissents mind - 9 to 2 in favour of the claimants is my guess.
And thus the "The government will implement whatever you decide" will become the government's "£350 million a week". A pile of steaming tosh.
Anyway I'd expect three line whips and deselections for supporting wrecking amendments/not showing up for the bill unpaired once it gets through - and potential use of the supremacy of the commons to force it through the Lords, as it should be as it was a manifesto commitment to the referendum.
I still struggle even now to get my head around the fact that Brexit, an extreme position at the right of British politics, has worked its way in to the mainstream.
The catalogue of events to make this position happen is incredible. Brexit really represents a pathway of unintended consequences. Who takes the blame for this terrible set of affairs? There are many people with their fingerprints in the pie.
Ed Miliband is a contender....for putting his ego against the interests of the Labour party's electoral fortunes. Or Len McCluskey for influencing the voting system to make such an out of touch figure leader. Or Nick Clegg for his shameful U turn on tuition and paving the way for the destruction of the LDS's. Or Chris Huhne's wife, or her wife's friend for taking out the only person who had the balls to take on Clegg and re-postion the LD's to at least salvage something at GE 2015. Or David Cameron for his expedient gesture to allow a referendum. Ed Miliband again, for changing the membership rules and opening the door to Corbyn. Ed Miliband again for running such an incompetent 2015 campaign culminating in the EdStone Or those moderate Labour MP's, Sadiq Khan, Becket and sadly Jo Cox who nominated Corbyn for a debate. Or the EU leadership for not giving David Cameron more concessions to take into said referendum. Or Jeremy Corbyn and his half hearted attempts at campaigning. Or the hugely popular Boris Johnson and his opportunistic move to head the Out campaign in order to position himself for the Tory leadership. Or the media in not exposing the outrageous lies and misinformation at the heart of the Out campaign. Not doing this made Brexit seem like a sensible choice.
(Personally I do not give Farage any credit. Cameron made the promise of a referendum as a sop to his loony MP's. Farage was a liability or the vote.)
The right wing extremist turn the country took I think required all the above to be in place to happen.
I personally think that Ed Miliband is the person who is most at fault. I'd be interested to know what others think.
As a special Christmas present I appear to have received a tax bill that isn't due.
Marvellous. Trying to hunt down the paperwork from my self-assessment (last one seems to have gone walkies). If it's NI, that's fine, but it appears to be income tax [which makes no sense]. *sighs*
If it makes you feel any better, a few years ago I had a doorstep visit from an HMRC inspector. She was armed with documentation that presumed I owed c£50k in tax. I fell about laughing as she stood in my porch.
It shortly became apparent - as she stood there - that HMRC had decided I was a duplicate of decade old divorced self, that I'd been on PAYE during the entire period of my tax crimes and we went on to discuss cats.
Finally, HMRC decided I owed not £50k, but £317. I'm sure I could've quibbled this down to £0 if I could've been bothered several months later.
I've fought about £80k of false HMRC claims to Nil by simply saying Silly. It's almost always coercive nonsense - including their supposed fines. Stick to your guns. I dumped carrier bags of evidence at my local tax office and they blanched/decided my case wasn't worth the effort.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
I doubt anyone can answer that convincingly until the judgement in January.
I still struggle even now to get my head around the fact that Brexit, an extreme position at the right of British politics, has worked its way in to the mainstream.
The catalogue of events to make this position happen is incredible. Brexit really represents a pathway of unintended consequences. Who takes the blame for this terrible set of affairs? There are many people with their fingerprints in the pie.
Ed Miliband is a contender....for putting his ego against the interests of the Labour party's electoral fortunes. Or Len McCluskey for influencing the voting system to make such an out of touch figure leader. Or Nick Clegg for his shameful U turn on tuition and paving the way for the destruction of the LDS's. Or Chris Huhne's wife, or her wife's friend for taking out the only person who had the balls to take on Clegg and re-postion the LD's to at least salvage something at GE 2015. Or David Cameron for his expedient gesture to allow a referendum. Ed Miliband again, for changing the membership rules and opening the door to Corbyn. Ed Miliband again for running such an incompetent 2015 campaign culminating in the EdStone For those moderate Labour MP's, Sadiq Khan, Becket and sadly Jo Cox who nominated Corbyn for a debate. Or the EU leadership for not giving David Cameron more concessions to take into said referendum. For Jeremy Corbyn and his half hearted attempts at campaigning. For the hugely popular Boris Johnson and his opportunistic move to head the Out campaign in order to position himself for the Tory leadership. For the media in not exposing the outrageous lies and misinformation at the heart of the Out campaign. Not doing this made Brexit seem like a sensible choice.
(Personally I do not give Farage any credit. Cameron made the promise of a referendum as a sop to his loony MP's. Farage was a liability or the vote.)
The right wing extremist turn the country took I think required all the above to be in place to happen.
I personally think that Ed Miliband is the person who is most at fault. I'd be interested to know what others think.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
I'm not denying some are attempting to wriggle out of Brexit. Equally I'm sure the judges are trying to ensure that the law is followed correctly.
I'm agreeing that the backlash will ,initially at least hit those perceived to be delaying/attempting to stop Brexit. Equally I suspect in the next few years there will be an anti Brexiteer backlash when some of the promises made in the referendum are impossible to keep.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
I doubt anyone can answer that convincingly until the judgement in January.
In January. Govt win = zero delay. Govt lose = push a short Bill through Parliament. Three months to complete a task that can be completed in days. If Parliament does, bizarrely, play silly buggers, maximum of two weeks to get Parliament dissolved, 6 weeks to have new elections, push Bill through immediately and you've still got weeks of leeway before causing even one day of delays.
It's looking like Gina Miller and co may have saved Brexit after all, then.
After all, compare the following outcomes:
THE WAY THINGS ARE: - The case is taken to Court before Government tries to invoke A50. The High Court checks constitutional law and affirms that the constitutional requirements for the UK are that Parliament makes the official decision to withdraw. The Supreme Court either uphold or reject this. If they reject it, no delay, no issue. If they uphold it, TMay has three-and-a-half months to get a short Bill through Parliament whilst holding an absolute majority in the Commons and the moral backing of a referendum. It either passes easily or MPs block it; if they block it, she has plenty of routes to dissolving Parliament (even with the FTPA) in plenty of time to let the people kick out the blockers. No delay.
IN A WORLD WHERE THE REMAINERS PLAY CUNNING: - They wait for after March, and maybe into next year. Or even 18 months into negotiations and then bring the case. The law is the same, and the outcome is revealed similarly. It is found that this Member State has not followed the first provision of Article 50: "1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements." A case is brought to the ECJ to block Brexit on account of Article 50 not having been lawfully invoked. The exit process is halted while the court finds - and given the law, it looks pretty clear. We're now deep into 2019 or even 2020. Article 50 has not been officially invoked and everything is a clusterfuck. Given the fallout and chaos, the chance of actually halting Brexit completely would be orders of magnitude greater.
I will be writing Gina Miller a thank you letter.
Expect the cops bashing in your door for a hate crime.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
I doubt anyone can answer that convincingly until the judgement in January.
In January. Govt win = zero delay. Govt lose = push a short Bill through Parliament. Three months to complete a task that can be completed in days. If Parliament does, bizarrely, play silly buggers, maximum of two weeks to get Parliament dissolved, 6 weeks to have new elections, push Bill through immediately and you've still got weeks of leeway before causing even one day of delays.
What's the route to incurring any delays?
It depends what the Supreme Court says about Scotland.
Found the tax thingummyjig. I think HMRC is bundling together NI and income tax for some reason, which threw me. Still going to try and find an e-mail to enquire and make sure.
*collapses*
*dies*
*resurrects temporarily to suggest people buy his book*
Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, cheers. It's not a huge amount, but still. If it's just NI and they've bundled that together income tax, it's actually mildly helpful as it knocks off about a tenner from the bill from income tax I slightly overpaid years ago.
Edited extra bit 2: that's special. They have a telephone number and a mail address but no e-mail. ....
One of the long term things Cameron has probably done is made any future governments' ability to hold a referendum to be viewed with about as much suspicion as Blair's adventures in the Middle East (Did for future ability of government to head to a perhaps necessary future war) I have no idea what on, but at some point in the future a referendum might be necessary, even if one isn't necessary a government might be tempted to go for one... that could be perhaps answered in the negative that they think might yield the result they desire on a low turnout.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
I doubt anyone can answer that convincingly until the judgement in January.
In January. Govt win = zero delay. Govt lose = push a short Bill through Parliament. Three months to complete a task that can be completed in days. If Parliament does, bizarrely, play silly buggers, maximum of two weeks to get Parliament dissolved, 6 weeks to have new elections, push Bill through immediately and you've still got weeks of leeway before causing even one day of delays.
What's the route to incurring any delays?
If they follow Pannick's logic today then every single piece of legislation since 1972 will have to be rewritten before Brexit.
I still struggle even now to get my head around the fact that Brexit, an extreme position at the right of British politics, has worked its way in to the mainstream.
The catalogue of events to make this position happen is incredible. Brexit really represents a pathway of unintended consequences. Who takes the blame for this terrible set of affairs? There are many people with their fingerprints in the pie.
Ed Miliband is a contender....for putting his ego against the interests of the Labour party's electoral fortunes. Or Len McCluskey for influencing the voting system to make such an out of touch figure leader. Or Nick Clegg for his shameful U turn on tuition and paving the way for the destruction of the LDS's. Or Chris Huhne's wife, or her wife's friend for taking out the only person who had the balls to take on Clegg and re-postion the LD's to at least salvage something at GE 2015. Or David Cameron for his expedient gesture to allow a referendum. Ed Miliband again, for changing the membership rules and opening the door to Corbyn. Ed Miliband again for running such an incompetent 2015 campaign culminating in the EdStone Or those moderate Labour MP's, Sadiq Khan, Becket and sadly Jo Cox who nominated Corbyn for a debate. Or the EU leadership for not giving David Cameron more concessions to take into said referendum. Or Jeremy Corbyn and his half hearted attempts at campaigning. Or the hugely popular Boris Johnson and his opportunistic move to head the Out campaign in order to position himself for the Tory leadership. Or the media in not exposing the outrageous lies and misinformation at the heart of the Out campaign. Not doing this made Brexit seem like a sensible choice.
(Personally I do not give Farage any credit. Cameron made the promise of a referendum as a sop to his loony MP's. Farage was a liability or the vote.)
The right wing extremist turn the country took I think required all the above to be in place to happen.
I personally think that Ed Miliband is the person who is most at fault. I'd be interested to know what others think.
In my view, sooner or later, an EU referendum was a certainty.
Remain might have won in an alternate universe, but not by much, and I doubt the issue would have gone away.
The drivers were the fundamentals around globalisation, identity, migration and the political direction of the EU, not personalities.
Found the tax thingummyjig. I think HMRC is bundling together NI and income tax for some reason, which threw me. Still going to try and find an e-mail to enquire and make sure.
*collapses*
*dies*
*resurrects temporarily to suggest people buy his book*
Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, cheers. It's not a huge amount, but still. If it's just NI and they've bundled that together income tax, it's actually mildly helpful as it knocks off about a tenner from the bill from income tax I slightly overpaid years ago.
It's class 2 NI, (the old stamp), Instead of paying it through it year, it's part of your tax return and payable with that. It's a new thing.
There is a non-zero chance that a one line bill will be insufficient
How long does it take to write a longer Bill, whip it through, threaten to deselect MPs on the Government bench who don't support it unamended and get Parliament dissolved if MPs cause delays or issues?
As a special Christmas present I appear to have received a tax bill that isn't due.
Marvellous. Trying to hunt down the paperwork from my self-assessment (last one seems to have gone walkies). If it's NI, that's fine, but it appears to be income tax [which makes no sense]. *sighs*
If it makes you feel any better, a few years ago I had a doorstep visit from an HMRC inspector. She was armed with documentation that presumed I owed c£50k in tax. I fell about laughing as she stood in my porch.
It shortly became apparent - as she stood there - that HMRC had decided I was a duplicate of decade old divorced self, that I'd been on PAYE during the entire period of my tax crimes and we went on to discuss cats.
Finally, HMRC decided I owed not £50k, but £317. I'm sure I could've quibbled this down to £0 if I could've been bothered several months later.
I've fought about £80k of false HMRC claims to Nil by simply saying Silly. It's almost always coercive nonsense - including their supposed fines. Stick to your guns. I dumped carrier bags of evidence at my local tax office and they blanched/decided my case wasn't worth the effort.
Judging by the weight of your postings during POTUS, you strike me as someone who is more than a match for HMRC. My brother is the same...he managed to turn a huge tax bill into a 50k loss. There again he voted Brexit and supports Trump and he doesn't believe in climate change, so paying taxes is a definite no no.
I'm quite happy to pay my taxes without fighting every inch.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter.
I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit.
I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy.
Remainers are playing with fire.
It really depends on what parliament does with the whole A50 thing. If they let it pass, but want to know what is going on first, as the mood music in the Commons seems to be at the moment, and all this dissipates back into an argument over process that was actually of interest only to the lawyers. And if it fails, a GE with a manifesto commitment on the specifics of triggering A50 ought to sort things out in time.
There are a couple of bumps down the line, both of which relate to European rather than domestic law, so could both wind up at the ECJ. Firstly, the question going through the courts on EEA membership being separate needs to be resolved for the government to finalise their negotiation strategy (they could create their document with an either/or for some items), and further along the question of whether A50 is reversible is one that a different set of hard Remainers could legally test.
On the latter, with a legally sound A50 process in the bag, any government committed to Brexit could not be compelled to reverse things even if A50 was shown to be, in theory, reversible. Your fear might be that a wavering government in the middle of the Brexit realities might welcome the exit door that such a judgement gives and a second referendum could ensue - it would be government, not opposition, judges or lords who would have to make that call.
How long does it take to write a longer Bill, whip it through, threaten to deselect MPs on the Government bench who don't support it unamended and get Parliament dissolved if MPs cause delays or issues?
It depends what needs to be in it. If it needs to be "the Great repeal Bill", them months, or years.
She is only in some difficulty if she wants a softer brexit (which I am far from convinced she does) and the hard brexiters successfully argue, as they have been attempting for months, that anything less than the hardest brexit is no brexit at all.
Theresa May wants an uncontroversial Brexit. She doesn't care too much about what it is or how it will affect the country. Which means she is appeasing those that shout loudest in her party - ie the Hard Leavers - and at the same time trying to say as little as possible about what Brexit will entail. The court case makes both those stances a bit more difficult for her.
Found the tax thingummyjig. I think HMRC is bundling together NI and income tax for some reason, which threw me. Still going to try and find an e-mail to enquire and make sure.
*collapses*
*dies*
*resurrects temporarily to suggest people buy his book*
Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, cheers. It's not a huge amount, but still. If it's just NI and they've bundled that together income tax, it's actually mildly helpful as it knocks off about a tenner from the bill from income tax I slightly overpaid years ago.
Edited extra bit 2: that's special. They have a telephone number and a mail address but no e-mail. ....
HMRC bods are just ordinary people - they've a massive in-tray and don't want the hassle. Give them a sensible argument why they're wrong and they'll move onto someone else.
That's been my entire experience as a SME. My hubby had terrible trouble as they thought he was some Master VAT Carousel criminal - he isn't. His main customer happened to be Swiss as clock experts. Those VAT enforcers in black suits on our doorstep were more scary than Jevoha's Witnesses.
Casino Royale-totally support your conclusion.Tyson's rant is brought on by his utter hatred of Brexiteers.Lies were on both sides not just Brexiteers.
I still struggle even now to get my head around the fact that Brexit, an extreme position at the right of British politics, has worked its way in to the mainstream.
The catalogue of events to make this position happen is incredible. Brexit really represents a pathway of unintended consequences. Who takes the blame for this terrible set of affairs? There are many people with their fingerprints in the pie.
Ed Miliband is a contender....for putting his ego against the interests of the Labour party's electoral fortunes. Or Len McCluskey for influencing the voting system to make such an out of touch figure leader. Or Nick Clegg for his shameful U turn on tuition and paving the way for the destruction of the LDS's. Or Chris Huhne's wife, or her wife's friend for taking out the only person who had the balls to take on Clegg and re-postion the LD's to at least salvage something at GE 2015. Or David Cameron for his expedient gesture to allow a referendum. Ed Miliband again, for changing the membership rules and opening the door to Corbyn. Ed Miliband again for running such an incompetent 2015 campaign culminating in the EdStone Or those moderate Labour MP's, Sadiq Khan, Becket and sadly Jo Cox who nominated Corbyn for a debate. Or the EU leadership for not giving David Cameron more concessions to take into said referendum. Or Jeremy Corbyn and his half hearted attempts at campaigning. Or the hugely popular Boris Johnson and his opportunistic move to head the Out campaign in order to position himself for the Tory leadership. Or the media in not exposing the outrageous lies and misinformation at the heart of the Out campaign. Not doing this made Brexit seem like a sensible choice.
(Personally I do not give Farage any credit. Cameron made the promise of a referendum as a sop to his loony MP's. Farage was a liability or the vote.)
The right wing extremist turn the country took I think required all the above to be in place to happen.
I personally think that Ed Miliband is the person who is most at fault. I'd be interested to know what others think.
The Eu has to take the lion's share of the blame for pushing Europe in a direction that a lot of the British public were not keen on going- ever closer union. In principle, the EU is a great idea- nations geographically close together, standardising laws, rights, defence, working on projects together- what's not to like? The ever closer union mantra was a mistake, I think, and one that many other nations seem to be waking up to. The crucial question for me now is, what happens now? Who in their right mind would join the EU today, as it is, with all the drama and unrest inside it now? If Brexit does get binned (unlikely) or stalled, what then, for us, and also the EU? It's the uncertainty, on both sides now, that is contagious, and very damaging.
It looks like the Establishment is using every trick in the book to delay Brexit and then to stall it completely. Even if it isn't.
Does anyone honestly think it's all to alleviate a lack pf clarity. Suppose the referendum had returned a narrow-ish Remain verdict, and Parliament had suddenly decided to go its own way and Leave. Unlikely I know, but even I, as a Brexit voter, would have been very uneasy about it.
Anecdotally, I know some Labour-voting Remainers also think Labour are playing silly buggers. Give the LDs some credit, they're anti-democratic and proud.
So Labour's position seems to be "We will vote for Article 50, once we tie the Governments hand so Brexit becomes only a pretend Brexit. We assume we have the numbers in Parliament, but even if this fails, we can still stop things further down the line."
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
It's a case of delaying it enough and hoping (God forbid planning) that 'events dear boy' and economic headwinds result in strong and sustained reversals in popular opinion regarding Brexit, and there's widespread public appetite to 'make it stop' and 'do something', and we stay in - perhaps on the basis of EUref 2. The advance guard of breathless media stories on what slathering racist scumbags we've all suddenly become since the vote is obviously well underway. It's standard procedure.
Miss Plato, I did have some contact with them a few years ago and they were entirely reasonable.
I think they've just changed to bundling NI and income tax together (which does make me wonder if this means I'm technically a taxpayer, even though I'm rather under the threshold).
I'd just like to confirm that. Anyway, searching the site now so hopefully that'll say.
Mr. Slackbladder, huzzah for you! That's precisely what I wanted to know.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
It's a case of delaying it enough and hoping (God forbid planning) that 'events dear boy' and economic headwinds result in strong and sustained reversals in popular opinion regarding Brexit, and there's widespread public appetite to 'make it stop' and 'do something', and we stay in - perhaps on the basis of EUref 2. The advance guard of breathless media stories on what slathering racist scumbags we've all suddenly become since the vote is obviously well underway. It's standard procedure.
A humiliating retreat from Brexit and back into the EU would be more damaging to the UK than most types of Brexit however.
The only 'event' that would be useful in allowing us to rejoin the EU would be for it to completely reform, probably as a result of another crisis.
My instincts tell me that the Supreme Court and remainers may win but will lose the war in the eyes of the voter. I believe that this will lead to increasing anger with the out of touch left elite and those threatening to stop Brexit. I expect to see many remainers siding with leavers as an injustice is perceived to be happening. You can throw as much common law as you like at trying to subvert the will of the people but it will only increase the reasons why Brexit happened, as well as Trump and this week Italy. Remainers are playing with fire.
Very true. There is a backlash coming.
The backlash will be against the loony Brextremists.
I voted Remain, however if I had been a leaver I would be decidedly unimpressed by what appears to be part of the Establishment desperately attempting to subvert the result of the referendum.
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Why do you accept this isn't the case? That's exactly what it is. And although I fully agree with Big G's sentiments and applaud him for them, the phrase 'out of touch elite' is very much passed its sell-by date too. It gives the impression of a bunch of remote but kindly aristocrats who would change their ways if they could only see the suffering of the hard working tenants. In fact the elite is very much in touch with what the people want; it's just not what they want. So they will continue to try and wriggle out of it.
How much delay has this caused or would this cause to the timeline of issuing A50 invocation in March next year? How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
I doubt anyone can answer that convincingly until the judgement in January.
In January. Govt win = zero delay. Govt lose = push a short Bill through Parliament. Three months to complete a task that can be completed in days. If Parliament does, bizarrely, play silly buggers, maximum of two weeks to get Parliament dissolved, 6 weeks to have new elections, push Bill through immediately and you've still got weeks of leeway before causing even one day of delays.
What's the route to incurring any delays?
Obviously it's not technically a given that they would be returned with a majority in the HoC... (stop laughing at the back) - so sorting out a coalition / supply and confidence agreement might be required and take time.
I still struggle even now to get my head around the fact that Brexit, an extreme position at the right of British politics, has worked its way in to the mainstream.
The catalogue of events to make this position happen is incredible. Brexit really represents a pathway of unintended consequences. Who takes the blame for this terrible set of affairs? There are many people with their fingerprints in the pie.
Ed Miliband is a contender....for putting his ego against the interests of the Labour party's electoral fortunes. Or Len McCluskey for influencing the voting system to make such an out of touch figure leader. Or Nick Clegg for his shameful U turn on tuition and paving the way for the destruction of the LDS's. Or Chris Huhne's wife, or her wife's friend for taking out the only person who had the balls to take on Clegg and re-postion the LD's to at least salvage something at GE 2015. Or David Cameron for his expedient gesture to allow a referendum. Ed Miliband again, for changing the membership rules and opening the door to Corbyn. Ed Miliband again for running such an incompetent 2015 campaign culminating in the EdStone Or those moderate Labour MP's, Sadiq Khan, Becket and sadly Jo Cox who nominated Corbyn for a debate. Or the EU leadership for not giving David Cameron more concessions to take into said referendum. Or Jeremy Corbyn and his half hearted attempts at campaigning. Or the hugely popular Boris Johnson and his opportunistic move to head the Out campaign in order to position himself for the Tory leadership. Or the media in not exposing the outrageous lies and misinformation at the heart of the Out campaign. Not doing this made Brexit seem like a sensible choice.
(Personally I do not give Farage any credit. Cameron made the promise of a referendum as a sop to his loony MP's. Farage was a liability or the vote.)
The right wing extremist turn the country took I think required all the above to be in place to happen.
I personally think that Ed Miliband is the person who is most at fault. I'd be interested to know what others think.
Wanting to leave the EU isn't a right wing extremist position itself. Although I grant you that some of the views and personalities of its more vocal proponents are less than appealing.
If Article 50 is invoked without too much delay ... Then fault, if any, will lie with those who supported Leave.
If invoking Article 50 is blocked, or laden with so many caveats it becomes pointless, the memory will forever remain of a crooked Establishment who managed to frustrate the will of the people - whatever the current economic climate.
The Establishment could win the battle and lose the war badly. No more glad, confident morning for any government.
A thoughtful response...and I probably would agree with you over a pint.
Do you not think though that Brexit could be counter productive for the EU phobes? If Britain had stayed in, the EU was on the verge of collapse in the next years, a Grillo, or Le Pen away.
Now that Brexit will happen, the EU will learn from it's mistakes and thrive in the future. In effect Brexit has made it a loss less likely that the EU will collapse...and the UK will pay an economic price.
EU phobes were on the verge of their dream of witnessing the end of the EU. A little bit of patience....... pulling the trigger on Brexit could have set back their cause a generation or more.
A humiliating retreat from Brexit and back into the EU would be more damaging to the UK than most types of Brexit however.
The only 'event' that would be useful in allowing us to rejoin the EU would be for it to completely reform, probably as a result of another crisis.
Yes, it would be worse for the UK, but considerably better for a corporatist elite on the EU (and other international institutions) money and power merry go round. Their interests are utterly divergent with those of most of the population of the UK, and indeed our continuing existence as a viable state.
As for events, the BOE has already done its best to undermine confidence in our currency.
Miss Plato, I did have some contact with them a few years ago and they were entirely reasonable.
I think they've just changed to bundling NI and income tax together (which does make me wonder if this means I'm technically a taxpayer, even though I'm rather under the threshold).
I'd just like to confirm that. Anyway, searching the site now so hopefully that'll say.
Mr. Slackbladder, huzzah for you! That's precisely what I wanted to know.
TBH, being accused of serious fraud and knowing it's total cobblers was rather fun in retrospect. I didn't realise the severity of it all at the time/totally dismissive and amused as fantastically absurd.
It's the instant belly-laugh response that changes the look on accusers' faces from deadly censorious to WTF/Got This Wrong.
Is anyone clear whether the Tory amendment to the motion discharges the requirement for a commons vote, should they lose the court case? Personally I would be surprised.
Is anyone clear whether the Tory amendment to the motion discharges the requirement for a commons vote, should they lose the court case? Personally I would be surprised.
Not as far as I am aware as it is an opposition day debate.
However, the result of the vote will identify the voting of the individual MP's and those voting No may find that some in the press may not be too kind
Comments
I fail to see how there will be a backlash against any __________ (insert whatever the oh so clever nickname-du-jour is for brexit campaigners is today), if we don't GET Brexit.
I don't think I've seen this mentioned on PB
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/12/boom-trump-announces-sprint-agreement-invest-50-billion-us-create-50000-jobs-video/
"The KC Star reported:
President-elect Donald Trump said Tuesday that the Tokyo-based parent company of Sprint Corp. has agreed to invest $50 billion and create 50,000 jobs in the United States...."
Plato once again so determined to be pro-Trump. Others are saying that pre-election the investment was announced to be £100 billion, of which this is part.
I'm not seeing a cogent argument here. Can you expand?
'A lot of people have said that it's not very attractive that this Court is full of old white men and we will at least see a female QC even if we don't actually hear from her'
Extraordinary comment.
https://blog.data.gov.sg/how-we-caught-the-circle-line-rogue-train-with-data-79405c86ab6a#.ijykfpg0j
The Electoral Commission also hit Tim Farron’s party with the maximum fine of £20,000 for failing to properly declare all their spending in the poll, which saw their number of MPs slashed to just eight.
A probe found that a startling 307 payments, totalling £184,676, were missing from the Lib-Dems’ spending return without a reasonable excuse.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/libdems-hit-with-maximum-fine-for-failing-to-declare-election-cash-a3414391.html
I accept thats not the case but it doesn't look good to the man in the street.
Edit : damn thought I was signed in as Mark Senior
Marvellous. Trying to hunt down the paperwork from my self-assessment (last one seems to have gone walkies). If it's NI, that's fine, but it appears to be income tax [which makes no sense]. *sighs*
The case is utterly justifiable in my view, whether the government is right it has the power ir they are wrong, it is an important question which since raised needs an answer, and better an answer now. The idea people should not have been able to challenge the government on that point is repugnant. But it probably will lead to a backlash, it will be seen as judges trying to stop Brexit, and the government is probably loving that (May's comments previously bear that out, warning politicians 'and judges' not to stymie Brexit even though this case doesn't stymie anything if the politicians do as they should and trigger Brexit), and since they have a plan for a one line bill regardless, while they may think they can win, clearly they know it doesn't matter if they lose. We know some remainers are frustrated and want to get a move on, that they feel as aggrieved a some leavers at attempts to delay matters, and even though none of that is relevant to a point of law, the public won't see it that way, by and large. They don't trust judges or politicians, plenty of the latter are saying the court should not even hear this case even though the governemnt in court acknowledges is it perfectly reasonable for the court to do so, and we know what the media will say if the result is as currently expected.
The more anger, the more likely a Hard Brexit (already the easiest option).
Now they know the train, I'd love to know the cause of the interference.
I was just at a supermarket. The checkout lady was having trouble scanning something.
"Sorry," she said. "I've been away for three months, and it's like I'm starting again."
"Been anywhere nice?" I asked.
"Jail."
There wasn't much I could say to that.
It is wholly wrong for Gina Miller to be targetted and I condemn anyone who does intimidate her
How does this allow the establishment to stop Brexit over the will of Government?
It's a point that isn't in dispute by any of the sides, and one I'd conclude on balance will have to make the court uphold the High court's decision.
You could swap Pannick, Eadie or any other competent barrister for any of the arguments and it wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference to the outcome. I reckon there'll be a couple of dissents mind - 9 to 2 in favour of the claimants is my guess.
And thus the "The government will implement whatever you decide" will become the government's "£350 million a week". A pile of steaming tosh.
Anyway I'd expect three line whips and deselections for supporting wrecking amendments/not showing up for the bill unpaired once it gets through - and potential use of the supremacy of the commons to force it through the Lords, as it should be as it was a manifesto commitment to the referendum.
@Mike Smithson
I still struggle even now to get my head around the fact that Brexit, an extreme position at the right of British politics, has worked its way in to the mainstream.
The catalogue of events to make this position happen is incredible. Brexit really represents a pathway of unintended consequences. Who takes the blame for this terrible set of affairs? There are many people with their fingerprints in the pie.
Ed Miliband is a contender....for putting his ego against the interests of the Labour party's electoral fortunes.
Or Len McCluskey for influencing the voting system to make such an out of touch figure leader.
Or Nick Clegg for his shameful U turn on tuition and paving the way for the destruction of the LDS's.
Or Chris Huhne's wife, or her wife's friend for taking out the only person who had the balls to take on Clegg and re-postion the LD's to at least salvage something at GE 2015.
Or David Cameron for his expedient gesture to allow a referendum.
Ed Miliband again, for changing the membership rules and opening the door to Corbyn.
Ed Miliband again for running such an incompetent 2015 campaign culminating in the EdStone
Or those moderate Labour MP's, Sadiq Khan, Becket and sadly Jo Cox who nominated Corbyn for a debate.
Or the EU leadership for not giving David Cameron more concessions to take into said referendum.
Or Jeremy Corbyn and his half hearted attempts at campaigning.
Or the hugely popular Boris Johnson and his opportunistic move to head the Out campaign in order to position himself for the Tory leadership.
Or the media in not exposing the outrageous lies and misinformation at the heart of the Out campaign. Not doing this made Brexit seem like a sensible choice.
(Personally I do not give Farage any credit. Cameron made the promise of a referendum as a sop to his loony MP's. Farage was a liability or the vote.)
The right wing extremist turn the country took I think required all the above to be in place to happen.
I personally think that Ed Miliband is the person who is most at fault. I'd be interested to know what others think.
It shortly became apparent - as she stood there - that HMRC had decided I was a duplicate of decade old divorced self, that I'd been on PAYE during the entire period of my tax crimes and we went on to discuss cats.
Finally, HMRC decided I owed not £50k, but £317. I'm sure I could've quibbled this down to £0 if I could've been bothered several months later.
I've fought about £80k of false HMRC claims to Nil by simply saying Silly. It's almost always coercive nonsense - including their supposed fines. Stick to your guns. I dumped carrier bags of evidence at my local tax office and they blanched/decided my case wasn't worth the effort.
I'm agreeing that the backlash will ,initially at least hit those perceived to be delaying/attempting to stop Brexit. Equally I suspect in the next few years there will be an anti Brexiteer backlash when some of the promises made in the referendum are impossible to keep.
There you go.
Govt win = zero delay.
Govt lose = push a short Bill through Parliament. Three months to complete a task that can be completed in days.
If Parliament does, bizarrely, play silly buggers, maximum of two weeks to get Parliament dissolved, 6 weeks to have new elections, push Bill through immediately and you've still got weeks of leeway before causing even one day of delays.
What's the route to incurring any delays?
Found the tax thingummyjig. I think HMRC is bundling together NI and income tax for some reason, which threw me. Still going to try and find an e-mail to enquire and make sure.
*collapses*
*dies*
*resurrects temporarily to suggest people buy his book*
Edited extra bit: Miss Plato, cheers. It's not a huge amount, but still. If it's just NI and they've bundled that together income tax, it's actually mildly helpful as it knocks off about a tenner from the bill from income tax I slightly overpaid years ago.
Edited extra bit 2: that's special. They have a telephone number and a mail address but no e-mail. ....
I have no idea what on, but at some point in the future a referendum might be necessary, even if one isn't necessary a government might be tempted to go for one... that could be perhaps answered in the negative that they think might yield the result they desire on a low turnout.
Remain might have won in an alternate universe, but not by much, and I doubt the issue would have gone away.
The drivers were the fundamentals around globalisation, identity, migration and the political direction of the EU, not personalities.
Should be about £140odd quid.
I'm quite happy to pay my taxes without fighting every inch.
LOL.
There are a couple of bumps down the line, both of which relate to European rather than domestic law, so could both wind up at the ECJ. Firstly, the question going through the courts on EEA membership being separate needs to be resolved for the government to finalise their negotiation strategy (they could create their document with an either/or for some items), and further along the question of whether A50 is reversible is one that a different set of hard Remainers could legally test.
On the latter, with a legally sound A50 process in the bag, any government committed to Brexit could not be compelled to reverse things even if A50 was shown to be, in theory, reversible. Your fear might be that a wavering government in the middle of the Brexit realities might welcome the exit door that such a judgement gives and a second referendum could ensue - it would be government, not opposition, judges or lords who would have to make that call.
That's been my entire experience as a SME. My hubby had terrible trouble as they thought he was some Master VAT Carousel criminal - he isn't. His main customer happened to be Swiss as clock experts. Those VAT enforcers in black suits on our doorstep were more scary than Jevoha's Witnesses.
The crucial question for me now is, what happens now? Who in their right mind would join the EU today, as it is, with all the drama and unrest inside it now? If Brexit does get binned (unlikely) or stalled, what then, for us, and also the EU? It's the uncertainty, on both sides now, that is contagious, and very damaging.
It looks like the Establishment is using every trick in the book to delay Brexit and then to stall it completely. Even if it isn't.
Does anyone honestly think it's all to alleviate a lack pf clarity. Suppose the referendum had returned a narrow-ish Remain verdict, and Parliament had suddenly decided to go its own way and Leave. Unlikely I know, but even I, as a Brexit voter, would have been very uneasy about it.
Anecdotally, I know some Labour-voting Remainers also think Labour are playing silly buggers. Give the LDs some credit, they're anti-democratic and proud.
So Labour's position seems to be "We will vote for Article 50, once we tie the Governments hand so Brexit becomes only a pretend Brexit. We assume we have the numbers in Parliament, but even if this fails, we can still stop things further down the line."
I think they've just changed to bundling NI and income tax together (which does make me wonder if this means I'm technically a taxpayer, even though I'm rather under the threshold).
I'd just like to confirm that. Anyway, searching the site now so hopefully that'll say.
Mr. Slackbladder, huzzah for you! That's precisely what I wanted to know.
Seems quite far north for a spaceport !
The argument is getting tedious
The only 'event' that would be useful in allowing us to rejoin the EU would be for it to completely reform, probably as a result of another crisis.
The Russians don't bother about this, basically because they don't care about the steppes.
If Article 50 is invoked without too much delay ... Then fault, if any, will lie with those who supported Leave.
If invoking Article 50 is blocked, or laden with so many caveats it becomes pointless, the memory will forever remain of a crooked Establishment who managed to frustrate the will of the people - whatever the current economic climate.
The Establishment could win the battle and lose the war badly. No more glad, confident morning for any government.
Nice to see the opposition turn up for a change.
Remain might have won in an alternate universe, but not by much, and I doubt the issue would have gone away.
The drivers were the fundamentals around globalisation, identity, migration and the political direction of the EU, not personalities.
@Casino
A thoughtful response...and I probably would agree with you over a pint.
Do you not think though that Brexit could be counter productive for the EU phobes? If Britain had stayed in, the EU was on the verge of collapse in the next years, a Grillo, or Le Pen away.
Now that Brexit will happen, the EU will learn from it's mistakes and thrive in the future. In effect Brexit has made it a loss less likely that the EU will collapse...and the UK will pay an economic price.
EU phobes were on the verge of their dream of witnessing the end of the EU. A little bit of patience....... pulling the trigger on Brexit could have set back their cause a generation or more.
As for events, the BOE has already done its best to undermine confidence in our currency.
It's the instant belly-laugh response that changes the look on accusers' faces from deadly censorious to WTF/Got This Wrong.
However, the result of the vote will identify the voting of the individual MP's and those voting No may find that some in the press may not be too kind
And yes, I was hoping to see that question answered too.