That is a possible outcome but there is also a strong likelihood that many areas, such as hill farms, would simply not be viable at all and return to wilderness rather than being intensively farmed.
What we need to do is to subsidise the nutritional content within our food, rather than the yield. Nitrate fertilisers (understandably if you apply some thought) result in crops that are bulky but totally starved of the full complement of minerals they should have for healthy people. It's like the difference between a stage set and a house. They also end up just as expensive for farmers with the cost of weedkillers, spraying equipment etc.
We need to move back to mixed farming, and soils should be enriched with essential minerals to encourage strong growth rather than fertilisers. The landscape would benefit, the taxpayer would benefit, but most of all people would be healthier and stronger. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/3324442/We-want-real-food.html
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?
Crikey! I have never seen demand that close to capacity before. Gas is pretty much maxed out and wind is, as usual, bloody useless (1.98gw). Coal and nuclear moving onto the red zones too. Yes, I think we should be worried but not for tonight. Kettles will be going on soon but offices and factories will be switching off.
Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?
I'm guessing GridWatch's figures don't automatically include capacity that is held in reserve and can be switched on quickly - a function we consumers pay a pretty packet for. I guess as they get switched on the maximum capacity on the figures will alter accordingly.
However this has been a longstanding disagreement between RCS and myself: I think we're cutting our power generation reserves too close to the bone, and he disagrees.
I'm not saying we're going to get brownouts; just that the risk of them is too high. And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
Gridwatch gets its data from the Elexon portal that I linked to. Its indications of current consumption are accurate, but the fixed limits to the gauges don't properly reflect the changing availability of the different generation capacities.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
wouldnt it be better to stop running the London Underground and the internet ?
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?
Crikey! I have never seen demand that close to capacity before. Gas is pretty much maxed out and wind is, as usual, bloody useless (1.98gw). Coal and nuclear moving onto the red zones too. Yes, I think we should be worried but not for tonight. Kettles will be going on soon but offices and factories will be switching off.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
As a one off it would be hard to disagree. But one of the things that JLR were looking for assurances on before they commit to doubling their car production is the security and cost of power. We would not want to get the reputation of being a country where manufacturers were subject to such restraints.
The Crown Prosecution Service seem to have decided it is in the public interest to prosecute after all - after a few years of deciding otherwise.
The football story may have been released to take the spotlight off the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse after the most recent resignation from that hot potato.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
wouldnt it be better to stop running the London Underground and the internet ?
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
That it will be a rare occurrence is a presumption. I'm far from sure it will; for one thing, it may be easier politically then creating more power stations. It also hurts our economy every time it is done.
I also disagree with the main idea; consumers pay a fortune at the moment to have power stations in reserve for when renewables output dips, and they are barely cost-effective as it is. The problem is that the rush for renewables, whilst understandable, has unbalanced the generation side of things.
we desperately need to develop mass power storage, and more than pumped storage can deliver.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
wouldnt it be better to stop running the London Underground and the internet ?
What generally or on this specific occasion?
all the time. and I'd stop power supplies to certain categories or engineers too :-)
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
As a one off it would be hard to disagree. But one of the things that JLR were looking for assurances on before they commit to doubling their car production is the security and cost of power. We would not want to get the reputation of being a country where manufacturers were subject to such restraints.
I wouldn't envisage any manufacturer being forced to cut consumption, but there must be manufacturers for whom it would make economic sense to, say, receive cheaper electricity in return for flexibility in consumption.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
wouldnt it be better to stop running the London Underground and the internet ?
We need to think of alternative forms of power beyond renewables. I might patent my idea for a chip that harnesses outrage. Every time it looks as though we're short of power, broadcast something outrageous: "Jimmy Saville was a good man", or "the Queen should be sent to a Gulag" and wait for the Gigawatts to roll in.
That is a possible outcome but there is also a strong likelihood that many areas, such as hill farms, would simply not be viable at all and return to wilderness rather than being intensively farmed.
What we need to do is to subsidise the nutritional content within our food, rather than the yield. Nitrate fertilisers (understandably if you apply some thought) result in crops that are bulky but totally starved of the full complement of minerals they should have for healthy people. It's like the difference between a stage set and a house. They also end up just as expensive for farmers with the cost of weedkillers, spraying equipment etc.
We need to move back to mixed farming, and soils should be enriched with essential minerals to encourage strong growth rather than fertilisers. The landscape would benefit, the taxpayer would benefit, but most of all people would be healthier and stronger. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/3324442/We-want-real-food.html
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
In my opinion (and I admit I have little first hand experience) they, and we, have all been encouraged to think solely about yield, to the detriment of food quality and health.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
That it will be a rare occurrence is a presumption. I'm far from sure it will; for one thing, it may be easier politically then creating more power stations. It also hurts our economy every time it is done.
I also disagree with the main idea; consumers pay a fortune at the moment to have power stations in reserve for when renewables output dips, and they are barely cost-effective as it is. The problem is that the rush for renewables, whilst understandable, has unbalanced the generation side of things.
we desperately need to develop mass power storage, and more than pumped storage can deliver.
You exaggerate. Studies have shown that intermittent generation of up to about 30% of generated power can be integrated relatively easily into most grids. This is because the variability of intermittent generation is dwarfed by demand variability up to about this level of penetration. Going beyond 30% or so gets tricky - then you start to need large amounts of storage capacity and/or demand management.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
wouldnt it be better to stop running the London Underground and the internet ?
We need to think of alternative forms of power beyond renewables. I might patent my idea for a chip that harnesses outrage. Every time it looks as though we're short of power, broadcast something outrageous: "Jimmy Saville was a good man", or "the Queen should be sent to a Gulag" and wait for the Gigawatts to roll in.
On that basis PB could power the nation by itself !
Mr. Brooke, indeed. We should've built a load of gas-fired power stations. But that would be 'polluting'. So now we're perilously close to having demand exceed capacity because all major parties have pussyfooted around for decades.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Slightly disappointed that nobody on here has taken up the cudgels on behalf of the Crafty Cockernee - prime 'political correctness gone mad' material for loonballs.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Mr. Jessop, I posted this on my Twitter feed earlier today. It would be very handy for some situations as local generation to reduce energy costs by perhaps 30% (especially those with very high/low temperatures).
@Theuniondivvie The only sensible response to Eric Bristow's outpourings is to ignore them. Any idiot has access to twitter. It doesn't mean that we need to pay his thoughts any notice. The day I take my guidance on current affairs from a superannuated darts player is the day you can declare me officially senile.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
Voluntary peak lopping might be 10% the cost of building new power stations.
Domestic electricity consumption has been slowly declining since 2008. DECC said it would double or triple by 2050. Germany predicted its elec consumption would fall 25% by 2050. Their forecast might turn out to be more accurate for the UK than the UK's own forecast.
A few more auctions for saved capacity would solve the problem for the next 10-20 years or more, but might embarrass the proponents of Hinkley Point C which is said to be essential for all sorts of spurious reasons. So my guess is that they'll be underplayed or won't be held at all.
Nitrate fertilisers (understandably if you apply some thought) result in crops that are bulky but totally starved of the full complement of minerals they should have for healthy people.
Which exact minerals?
I'm vegetarian, but would you stand by your statement if "people" were replaced by "cows"?
@Theuniondivvie The only sensible response to Eric Bristow's outpourings is to ignore them. Any idiot has access to twitter. It doesn't mean that we need to pay his thoughts any notice. The day I take my guidance on current affairs from a superannuated darts player is the day you can declare me officially senile.
Steady, you'll be suggesting Eddie Izzard does not have special insight next. And then where would we be?
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
Voluntary peak lopping might be 10% the cost of building new power stations.
Domestic electricity consumption has been slowly declining since 2008. DECC said it would double or triple by 2050. Germany predicted its elec consumption would fall 25% by 2050. Their forecast might turn out to be more accurate for the UK than the UK's own forecast.
A few more auctions for saved capacity would solve the problem for the next 10-20 years or more, but might embarrass the proponents of Hinkley Point C which is said to be essential for all sorts of spurious reasons. So my guess is that they'll be underplayed or won't be held at all.
Isn't it important because we have a target to cut down on greenhouse emissions?
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Indeed. One of the reasons that National Grid have to pay such hefty fines for mot providing power is because it is far from easy to shut down a production line. I don't know what kind of factories that people run but in my experience it's 3x 8h shifts per day or the owner is losing money.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Aluminium smelting is an example from Germany. This uses enormous amounts of power, so cheaper electricity is a major benefit for such plants, and it is possible for them to temporarily shut down on occasion without major problems. That's why they signed up for it.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Likewise. I was down in Newcastle recently and the road from Haddington to Morpeth is a bloody disgrace. In comparison we have an excellent, if lightly used, dual carriageway now between Dundee and Arbroath. Its really crazy.
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
@Theuniondivvie The only sensible response to Eric Bristow's outpourings is to ignore them. Any idiot has access to twitter. It doesn't mean that we need to pay his thoughts any notice. The day I take my guidance on current affairs from a superannuated darts player is the day you can declare me officially senile.
Current affairs from twitter? I only read pb to find out when to change my underpants.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Because few people would use it? We have a motorway as far North as Leeds, that is surely as far North as any sensible fellow would want to go, except for recreational reasons (rural Northumbria is lovely).
@Theuniondivvie The only sensible response to Eric Bristow's outpourings is to ignore them. Any idiot has access to twitter. It doesn't mean that we need to pay his thoughts any notice. The day I take my guidance on current affairs from a superannuated darts player is the day you can declare me officially senile.
Not having that, it was the mighty Bobby George's pro EU views that swung it for me.
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
The new improved CAP is supposed to incentivise them to achieve many of those things. Whether it succeeds or not is a matter of opinion.
But it is difficult to be too harsh. I had many clients in the 90s who were working 18 hours a day collecting their crops by floodlight to try and keep their Bank manager in his bonuses and themselves in their houses. It can be a tough life.
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Because few people would use it? We have a motorway as far North as Leeds, that is surely as far North as any sensible fellow would want to go, except for recreational reasons (rural Northumbria is lovely).
We almost have a continuous motorway between London and Newcastle, via either the M1/A1 routes or the A1 route.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Aluminium smelting is an example from Germany. This uses enormous amounts of power, so cheaper electricity is a major benefit for such plants, and it is possible for them to temporarily shut down on occasion without major problems. That's why they signed up for it.
Germany taxed its consumers and let industry off. The UK did it the other way round.
@Theuniondivvie The only sensible response to Eric Bristow's outpourings is to ignore them. Any idiot has access to twitter. It doesn't mean that we need to pay his thoughts any notice. The day I take my guidance on current affairs from a superannuated darts player is the day you can declare me officially senile.
Steady, you'll be suggesting Eddie Izzard does not have special insight next. And then where would we be?
Le Pen will have an easy ride next spring if Fillon takes his cue from the Remain campaign and gives the job of debating with her to a transvestite. Goodness, there must have been some laughing in the Russian embassy that evening.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
wouldnt it be better to stop running the London Underground and the internet ?
O/T
Did two more branches of Manchester Metrolink yesterday afternoon: Eccles and the Media City (BBC and ITV next door to each other!).
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
Voluntary peak lopping might be 10% the cost of building new power stations.
Exactly. But although economically sensible, it remains politically difficult because of the ingrained belief that demand management of this kind is a sign of failure. Which politician wants to see apocalyptic headlines of imminent grid collapse in the Daily Mail whenever use is made of such a facility?
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Because few people would use it? We have a motorway as far North as Leeds, that is surely as far North as any sensible fellow would want to go, except for recreational reasons (rural Northumbria is lovely).
The A1 through Northumb(ria/erland) is superb. Not just because of the scenery, but because it means I'm nearing my beloved Edinburgh.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Because few people would use it? We have a motorway as far North as Leeds, that is surely as far North as any sensible fellow would want to go, except for recreational reasons (rural Northumbria is lovely).
Then why are we building a sodding railway even less people will use ?
History shows motorways create their own traffic and eventually open up new opportunities.
While I'm at if I'd also stuff one across the South Downs from Portsmouth to Dover.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Aluminium smelting is an example from Germany. This uses enormous amounts of power, so cheaper electricity is a major benefit for such plants, and it is possible for them to temporarily shut down on occasion without major problems. That's why they signed up for it.
Do we have an aluminium smelting industry? I think that went years ago, mainly because of high energy costs. I am struggling to think of any industry that can cut its electricity consumption and remain operational.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Aluminium smelting is an example from Germany. This uses enormous amounts of power, so cheaper electricity is a major benefit for such plants, and it is possible for them to temporarily shut down on occasion without major problems. That's why they signed up for it.
Do we have an aluminium smelting industry? I think that went years ago, mainly because of high energy costs. I am struggling to think of any industry that can cut its electricity consumption and remain operational.
A friend of mine runs a smelter - his views on energy are always entertaining.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Because few people would use it? We have a motorway as far North as Leeds, that is surely as far North as any sensible fellow would want to go, except for recreational reasons (rural Northumbria is lovely).
The A1 through Northumb(ria/erland) is superb. Not just because of the scenery, but because it means I'm nearing my beloved Edinburgh.
Its immensely frustrating and dangerous. They used to have all those signs about how many had been killed on various stretches over the last 5 years. They've gone now but every time I saw one I used to think, "so build a bloody dual carriageway then."
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
Not met many farmers have you.
Oh but I have. I live in a rural area.
Just bought a house there? That's nice.
Be sure to complain about the noise of the church bells and nearby morning cockerels. You'll be really popular in no time.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Aluminium smelting is an example from Germany. This uses enormous amounts of power, so cheaper electricity is a major benefit for such plants, and it is possible for them to temporarily shut down on occasion without major problems. That's why they signed up for it.
Do we have an aluminium smelting industry? I think that went years ago, mainly because of high energy costs. I am struggling to think of any industry that can cut its electricity consumption and remain operational.
At least without having to cycle down and cycle up, wasting time.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Aluminium smelting is an example from Germany. This uses enormous amounts of power, so cheaper electricity is a major benefit for such plants, and it is possible for them to temporarily shut down on occasion without major problems. That's why they signed up for it.
Do we have an aluminium smelting industry? I think that went years ago, mainly because of high energy costs. I am struggling to think of any industry that can cut its electricity consumption and remain operational.
Virtually every industry will have some electricity price point at which it is worth the cost of the occasion shutdown. This price will be very low for manufacturers for whom a shutdown would be very costly, but higher for large consumers who can more easily tolerate a shutdown.
Hell, even a domestic consumer might be tempted to sign up for half-price electricity on condition that they accept the inconvenience of the occasional, planned power cut!
So it turns out that both Merkel and Donald Tusk are refusing to discuss residency rights for EU and British citizens, not Theresa May. Not holding my breath that the broadcast media will report it or the letter from Donald Tusk which has been sent to Parliamentarians. Sure the Polish PM will be delighted with her colleagues in the EU.
Also Theresa May and Donald Trump have agreed to an early meeting
I live in Newcastle (well, Gateshead now...) but make frequent trips to my native land of the West Midlands. I cannot wait for the Barton to Leeming Bar stretch of the A1(M) to be completed. It has been the bane of my life.
I also hope the government follow through with their idea to rename the A1 north of Leeds to Newcastle the M1.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
Voluntary peak lopping might be 10% the cost of building new power stations.
Exactly. But although economically sensible, it remains politically difficult because of the ingrained belief that demand management of this kind is a sign of failure. Which politician wants to see apocalyptic headlines of imminent grid collapse in the Daily Mail whenever use is made of such a facility?
Do you have any evidence that voluntary peak lopping is not only economically sensible, but enough to count? It is also, undoubtedly, a sign of failure. A failure in planning, a failure in investment, and a failure in policy.
Consumers are paying through the nose for a nonsensical and disjointed energy policy. The criteria should be:
1) Security of demand - ensure we can get enough energy. The country's been good at doing this for decades, so we know what to do. 2) Security of supply - where possible, we should not depend on energy supplies from foreign sources that might be cut off. In electricity we've been fairly good at this with coal. In transportation, much less so. 3) Cost. Energy should be affordable. 4) Environment - we should try to generate in as environmentally friendly way as possible, within the constraints of the other three factors.
The new policy is for environmental factors to override the other factors. This is madness.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Because few people would use it? We have a motorway as far North as Leeds, that is surely as far North as any sensible fellow would want to go, except for recreational reasons (rural Northumbria is lovely).
We almost have a continuous motorway between London and Newcastle, via either the M1/A1 routes or the A1 route.
Well, we almost do: M1/M6/M74/M8 - although if your sensible, you'll take a shortcut through the western Borders - but the number of people wanting to do so is so small that the need for a motorway isn't that great.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Aluminium smelting is an example from Germany. This uses enormous amounts of power, so cheaper electricity is a major benefit for such plants, and it is possible for them to temporarily shut down on occasion without major problems. That's why they signed up for it.
Do we have an aluminium smelting industry? (Snip)
I think Rio Tinto's smelter in Fort William's still going. The one in Kinlochleven closed a few years ago, and the one north of Newcastle in 2012. I'm not sure about the Anglesey plant.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Because few people would use it? We have a motorway as far North as Leeds, that is surely as far North as any sensible fellow would want to go, except for recreational reasons (rural Northumbria is lovely).
...
While I'm at if I'd also stuff one across the South Downs from Portsmouth to Dover.
That would be the A27 dual carriageway from Dorset to Dover. A project planned in, I think, the 1950s, but still not completed and never will be. In the 1980s they compulsorily purchased a lot of houses in Worthing to create the space for that section, then the Soviet Union collapsed and the project, much needed and supported by the local community, was summarily cancelled. Thereby confirming the idea that the whole thing was about being able to move the army's armour from it bases around Bovington to the Channel Ports.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Because few people would use it? We have a motorway as far North as Leeds, that is surely as far North as any sensible fellow would want to go, except for recreational reasons (rural Northumbria is lovely).
The A1 through Northumb(ria/erland) is superb. Not just because of the scenery, but because it means I'm nearing my beloved Edinburgh.
Its immensely frustrating and dangerous. They used to have all those signs about how many had been killed on various stretches over the last 5 years. They've gone now but every time I saw one I used to think, "so build a bloody dual carriageway then."
Fair enough. I only travel on it infrequently; it must be very different if you have to use it regularly.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
4 king ludicrous.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
Like building runways. Eh Zac? Give luddites a bad name so he does.
I still cant understand why we cant have a Motorway between London and Edinburgh
Because few people would use it? We have a motorway as far North as Leeds, that is surely as far North as any sensible fellow would want to go, except for recreational reasons (rural Northumbria is lovely).
We almost have a continuous motorway between London and Newcastle, via either the M1/A1 routes or the A1 route.
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
Not met many farmers have you.
Oh but I have. I live in a rural area.
So do I and |I know that there is a big difference between agri-businesses, which behave as you described, and farmers, which on the whole don't. In addition there are different types of farming, a Hill farmer in the Lake District is going to have different imperatives than an arable farmer in Lincolnshire for example.
Your characterisation of all farmers as greedy, grasping buggers who care nothing for animal welfare, the environment, nature and so forth is just wrong.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
why the fk should they ? Just build a bloody power station
It's amazing to read how on one side leaving the EU will supposedly decimate our industries, bit power shortages and planned brown outs will be fine and won't hurt industry at all.
Voluntary peak lopping might be 10% the cost of building new power stations.
Exactly. But although economically sensible, it remains politically difficult because of the ingrained belief that demand management of this kind is a sign of failure. Which politician wants to see apocalyptic headlines of imminent grid collapse in the Daily Mail whenever use is made of such a facility?
Do you have any evidence that voluntary peak lopping is not only economically sensible, but enough to count? It is also, undoubtedly, a sign of failure. A failure in planning, a failure in investment, and a failure in policy.
Consumers are paying through the nose for a nonsensical and disjointed energy policy. The criteria should be:
1) Security of demand - ensure we can get enough energy. The country's been good at doing this for decades, so we know what to do. 2) Security of supply - where possible, we should not depend on energy supplies from foreign sources that might be cut off. In electricity we've been fairly good at this with coal. In transportation, much less so. 3) Cost. Energy should be affordable. 4) Environment - we should try to generate in as environmentally friendly way as possible, within the constraints of the other three factors.
The new policy is for environmental factors to override the other factors. This is madness.
No. Insanity is the treatment of environmental protection as an optional luxury rather than the long-term economic imperative that it actually is.
Do you have any evidence that voluntary peak lopping is not only economically sensible, but enough to count? It is also, undoubtedly, a sign of failure. A failure in planning, a failure in investment, and a failure in policy.
Consumers are paying through the nose for a nonsensical and disjointed energy policy. The criteria should be:
1) Security of demand - ensure we can get enough energy. The country's been good at doing this for decades, so we know what to do. 2) Security of supply - where possible, we should not depend on energy supplies from foreign sources that might be cut off. In electricity we've been fairly good at this with coal. In transportation, much less so. 3) Cost. Energy should be affordable. 4) Environment - we should try to generate in as environmentally friendly way as possible, within the constraints of the other three factors.
The new policy is for environmental factors to override the other factors. This is madness.
No. Insanity is the treatment of environmental protection as an optional luxury rather than the long-term economic imperative that it actually is.
I'm not saying it's an optional luxury; it's one of the factors that needs to be considered. But going to far the other way; saying that security of demand, security of supply and cost are all subservient to the environment, is madness.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Aluminium smelting is an example from Germany. This uses enormous amounts of power, so cheaper electricity is a major benefit for such plants, and it is possible for them to temporarily shut down on occasion without major problems. That's why they signed up for it.
Do we have an aluminium smelting industry? (Snip)
I think Rio Tinto's smelter in Fort William's still going. The one in Kinlochleven closed a few years ago, and the one north of Newcastle in 2012. I'm not sure about the Anglesey plant.
The Anglesey Plant shut down years ago, Mr. Jessop. Fort William is still going I think, but I seem to recall it was being reviewed earlier this year, despite having hydro produced electricity, Mind you I think it is very small (about 45,000 tons a year).
The UK seems to have had a policy of shutting down heavy industry for quite sometime now. All in order to save the planet, I understand. That the UK still uses aluminium, steel and so forth means that carbon emissions are not actually reduced, merely moved abroad, seems to be beyond some people.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I wouls. That's why they signed up for it.
Do we have an aluminium smelting industry? (Snip)
I think Rio Tinto's smelter in Fort William's still going. The one in Kinlochleven closed a few years ago, and the one north of Newcastle in 2012. I'm not sure about the Anglesey plant.
The Anglesey Plant shut down years ago, Mr. Jessop. Fort William is still going I think, but I seem to recall it was being reviewed earlier this year, despite having hydro produced electricity, Mind you I think it is very small (about 45,000 tons a year).
The UK seems to have had a policy of shutting down heavy industry for quite sometime now. All in order to save the planet, I understand. That the UK still uses aluminium, steel and so forth means that carbon emissions are not actually reduced seems to be beyond some people.
Why manufacture in the UK when you can help the Chinese open another coal power station ?
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Aluminium smelting is an example from Germany. This uses enormous amounts of power, so cheaper electricity is a major benefit for such plants, and it is possible for them to temporarily shut down on occasion without major problems. That's why they signed up for it.
Do we have an aluminium smelting industry? (Snip)
I think Rio Tinto's smelter in Fort William's still going. The one in Kinlochleven closed a few years ago, and the one north of Newcastle in 2012. I'm not sure about the Anglesey plant.
The Anglesey Plant shut down years ago, Mr. Jessop. Fort William is still going I think, but I seem to recall it was being reviewed earlier this year, despite having hydro produced electricity, Mind you I think it is very small (about 45,000 tons a year).
The UK seems to have had a policy of shutting down heavy industry for quite sometime now. All in order to save the planet, I understand. That the UK still uses aluminium, steel and so forth means that carbon emissions are not actually reduced, merely moved abroad, seems to be beyond some people.
There is a view that ministers who thought it was clever to boast about how they were doing in meeting their global warming targets by such methods really ought to have been strung up (purely to reduce their methane footprint of course). Not that I am inciting violence you understand.
Electricity Demand side balancing makes a lot of sense to me. National Grid say this on their website "The Demand Side Balancing Reserve service (DSBR) is looking to sign up large energy users who have the flexibility to reduce their electricity use - for example by switching to back-up generation - when demand is at its highest between 1600hrs and 2000hrs on winter weekdays. This will be in return for a payment, and on a purely voluntary basis. This will help stimulate a (Demand Side Response or DSR) market which ultimately will help keep energy system costs down for consumers by avoiding the need to build additional power stations to service "peak" demands. National Grid already buys similar demand-side services from a range of businesses, and many large businesses already reduce their electricity usage in peak demand periods to reduce their costs"
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Any industry where energy is a large part of the input cost and you can feasibly switch off for an hour or so on occasion. In exchange for that commitment you would get a substantial discount on your tariff. Or offices or businesses that have a backup generator.
I know CERN, which has a very large energy requirement has a deal like that with the French power company.
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
You missed out their propensity to gobble up subsidies. And moan about everyone else.
There is a view that ministers who thought it was clever to boast about how they were doing in meeting their global warming targets by such methods really ought to have been strung up (purely to reduce their methane footprint of course). Not that I am inciting violence you understand.
I'm of the opinion that there's actually a very malign force at the heart of British politics aimed at undermining our viability as a state deliberately, and has been for many years. I'm sorry but I can't see these disastrous decisions being taken just for a bit of backslapping at foreign junkets.
A few key people need the boot before I'll believe we're anywhere near out of the woods.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Any industry where energy is a large part of the input cost and you can feasibly switch off for an hour or so on occasion. In exchange for that commitment you would get a substantial discount on your tariff. Or offices or businesses that have a backup generator.
I know CERN, which has a very large energy requirement has a deal like that with the French power company.
CERN is a research site not a company with a production line, the idea that a company can just shut down for an "hour or so" from time to time without incurring costs is laughable. So that discount would have to be very large indeed. As for back up generators, I thought this was all about emissions, those generators run on diesel - hardly environmentally friendly.
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
You missed out their propensity to gobble up subsidies. And moan about everyone else.
And their greater propensity to commit suicide. But hey, don't let that stop you.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Any industry where energy is a large part of the input cost and you can feasibly switch off for an hour or so on occasion. In exchange for that commitment you would get a substantial discount on your tariff. Or offices or businesses that have a backup generator.
I know CERN, which has a very large energy requirement has a deal like that with the French power company.
CERN is a research site not a company with a production line, the idea that a company can just shut down for an "hour or so" from time to time without incurring costs is laughable. So that discount would have to be very large indeed. As for back up generators, I thought this was all about emissions, those generators run on diesel - hardly environmentally friendly.
Apart from that, why WOULD a factory or something producing value purposely stop doing that? Why would anyone trying to run an economy want them to? This is absurd stuff.
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
Not met many farmers have you.
Oh but I have. I live in a rural area.
So do I and |I know that there is a big difference between agri-businesses, which behave as you described, and farmers, which on the whole don't. In addition there are different types of farming, a Hill farmer in the Lake District is going to have different imperatives than an arable farmer in Lincolnshire for example.
Your characterisation of all farmers as greedy, grasping buggers who care nothing for animal welfare, the environment, nature and so forth is just wrong.
Yes I agree, I often live in the Eden valley,sheep country, and it was truly awful here during foot and mouth, the farmers I met were in tears, and the wholesale slaughter that went on to ensure an election proceeded was terrible. "Blair fiddles, whilst Cumbria burns". It was horrible here during that period. These sheep farmers earn bu***r all, when I talk to them they are genuinely concerned about their animals,out in all weathers on the fells. They are not greedy grasping at all.
There is a view that ministers who thought it was clever to boast about how they were doing in meeting their global warming targets by such methods really ought to have been strung up (purely to reduce their methane footprint of course). Not that I am inciting violence you understand.
I'm of the opinion that there's actually a very malign force at the heart of British politics aimed at undermining our viability as a state deliberately, and has been for many years. I'm sorry but I can't see these disastrous decisions being taken just for a bit of backslapping at foreign junkets.
A few key people need the boot before I'll believe we're anywhere near out of the woods.
Ed Miliband comes immediately to mind. His period as Energy Secretary was truly catastrophic for our manufacturing, our energy security and the long term wealth of the country. Our trade deficit became structural in those years when we stopped making the things we wanted. We have not recovered. We may never do so.
There is a view that ministers who thought it was clever to boast about how they were doing in meeting their global warming targets by such methods really ought to have been strung up (purely to reduce their methane footprint of course). Not that I am inciting violence you understand.
I'm of the opinion that there's actually a very malign force at the heart of British politics aimed at undermining our viability as a state deliberately, and has been for many years. I'm sorry but I can't see these disastrous decisions being taken just for a bit of backslapping at foreign junkets.
A few key people need the boot before I'll believe we're anywhere near out of the woods.
Ed Miliband comes immediately to mind. His period as Energy Secretary was truly catastrophic for our manufacturing, our energy security and the long term wealth of the country. Our trade deficit became structural in those years when we stopped making the things we wanted. We have not recovered. We may never do so.
Ed actually changed the country's energy policy after being heckled by a Z-list celebrity!
HurstLlama re "As for back up generators, I thought this was all about emissions, those generators run on diesel - hardly environmentally friendly."
Whilst that that is true, they only run very infrequently, and for short periods, and this mechanism allows us to source more of our power, for more of the time, from renewable sources.
For now, electricity generation does not have to be perfect for the environment, just better....
When I had farming clients, about 20 years ago now I realised that they looked at their business completely differently from me. I looked into a field and saw, well, a field. They saw a tray approximately 18 inches deep into which they put the ingredients to produce their crops. They took care to ensure that anything deeper than that was not disturbed.
Farmers aren't much interested in anything they don't view as a machine for making money, whether by yielding stuff they can sell or as a basis for applying for grants. Animal welfare? Nature? Education? Cleanliness? Human enjoyment of the natural environment? Food quality? Public health? Not interested in the slightest.
You missed out their propensity to gobble up subsidies. And moan about everyone else.
A farmer explained to me that the first 90% of his crop just about covered his fixed costs and overheads and the remaining 10% represented his annual income. Although he would like to allocate 10% of his land to "the environment" (however defined) it would entail a total loss of income. I wonder how many people here would be prepared to make a comparable sacrifice for the sake of a nebulous "green" gesture.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Any industry where energy is a large part of the input cost and you can feasibly switch off for an hour or so on occasion. In exchange for that commitment you would get a substantial discount on your tariff. Or offices or businesses that have a backup generator.
I know CERN, which has a very large energy requirement has a deal like that with the French power company.
CERN is a research site not a company with a production line, the idea that a company can just shut down for an "hour or so" from time to time without incurring costs is laughable. So that discount would have to be very large indeed. As for back up generators, I thought this was all about emissions, those generators run on diesel - hardly environmentally friendly.
The CERN deal is about actually firing up experiments. They need a very stable supply for their base load work - keeping a large number of tons of liquid helium, liquid. That is never, ever, ever switched off.
There is a view that ministers who thought it was clever to boast about how they were doing in meeting their global warming targets by such methods really ought to have been strung up (purely to reduce their methane footprint of course). Not that I am inciting violence you understand.
I'm of the opinion that there's actually a very malign force at the heart of British politics aimed at undermining our viability as a state deliberately, and has been for many years. I'm sorry but I can't see these disastrous decisions being taken just for a bit of backslapping at foreign junkets.
A few key people need the boot before I'll believe we're anywhere near out of the woods.
Ed Miliband comes immediately to mind. His period as Energy Secretary was truly catastrophic for our manufacturing, our energy security and the long term wealth of the country. Our trade deficit became structural in those years when we stopped making the things we wanted. We have not recovered. We may never do so.
Ed actually changed the country's energy policy after being heckled by a Z-list celebrity!
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Any industry where energy is a large part of the input cost and you can feasibly switch off for an hour or so on occasion. In exchange for that commitment you would get a substantial discount on your tariff. Or offices or businesses that have a backup generator.
I know CERN, which has a very large energy requirement has a deal like that with the French power company.
CERN is a research site not a company with a production line, the idea that a company can just shut down for an "hour or so" from time to time without incurring costs is laughable. So that discount would have to be very large indeed. As for back up generators, I thought this was all about emissions, those generators run on diesel - hardly environmentally friendly.
Nice strawman. Nobody is suggesting that these companies can shut down without incurring costs. Of course they will incur costs for doing so. The point is that if these costs are more than compensated by either a direct payment or the provision of cheap electricity during normal grid operation, then it will make financial sense for the company to make such an agreement.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Any industry where energy is a large part of the input cost and you can feasibly switch off for an hour or so on occasion. In exchange for that commitment you would get a substantial discount on your tariff. Or offices or businesses that have a backup generator.
I know CERN, which has a very large energy requirement has a deal like that with the French power company.
CERN is a research site not a company with a production line, the idea that a company can just shut down for an "hour or so" from time to time without incurring costs is laughable. So that discount would have to be very large indeed. As for back up generators, I thought this was all about emissions, those generators run on diesel - hardly environmentally friendly.
Nice strawman. Nobody is suggesting that these companies can shut down without incurring costs. Of course they will incur costs for doing so. The point is that if these costs are more than compensated by either a direct payment or the provision of cheap electricity during normal grid operation, then it will make financial sense for the company to make such an agreement.
At the opportunity cost of being less productive, less efficient and with higher burdens as the electrical company needs to charge consumers in order to pay for providing these incentives rather than spending its money on investing in production capabilities that allow other businesses to produce too.
An all round terrible way to run an economy. Lets pay people to sabotage their business.
And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
I disagree with this point. It surely makes economic sense to ask (and pay for) industry to cut its consumption on rare occasions rather than building power stations that will very rarely be used.
Stuff like glass furnaces you can't just turn on and off at will, you know.
No, but other industries can adjust power consumption. And it is also possible to forecast and plan in advance for times of peak consumption.
Really, which industries can cut power consumption? I would have thought that any industry will always minimise its costs and therefore will not be running using more electricity than it needs to. Reducing consumption therefore means shutting down productive work.
Aluminium smelting is an example from Germany. This uses enormous amounts of power, so cheaper electricity is a major benefit for such plants, and it is possible for them to temporarily shut down on occasion without major problems. That's why they signed up for it.
Do we have an aluminium smelting industry? (Snip)
I think Rio Tinto's smelter in Fort William's still going. The one in Kinlochleven closed a few years ago, and the one north of Newcastle in 2012. I'm not sure about the Anglesey plant.
The Anglesey Plant shut down years ago, Mr. Jessop. Fort William is still going I think, but I seem to recall it was being reviewed earlier this year, despite having hydro produced electricity, Mind you I think it is very small (about 45,000 tons a year).
The UK seems to have had a policy of shutting down heavy industry for quite sometime now. All in order to save the planet, I understand. That the UK still uses aluminium, steel and so forth means that carbon emissions are not actually reduced, merely moved abroad, seems to be beyond some people.
On this topic, did anybody see 'The Last Miners' on BBC1 last night?
Seem's insane for us not to keep just 1 pit going, at least for strategic reserve purposes.
Comments
Classic cold winter high - the one weather set that gives you diddly squat wind power, and high demand.
I also disagree with the main idea; consumers pay a fortune at the moment to have power stations in reserve for when renewables output dips, and they are barely cost-effective as it is. The problem is that the rush for renewables, whilst understandable, has unbalanced the generation side of things.
we desperately need to develop mass power storage, and more than pumped storage can deliver.
Look at Le France
78 Gigawatts !
Zey still 'ave ze 'eavy industrie.
it's just yet another sign of this country's fear of investing and doing the simple things.
https://twitter.com/GOsborneGenius/status/803651322323070978
Slightly disappointed that nobody on here has taken up the cudgels on behalf of the Crafty Cockernee - prime 'political correctness gone mad' material for loonballs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGlDsFAOWXc
Domestic electricity consumption has been slowly declining since 2008. DECC said it would double or triple by 2050. Germany predicted its elec consumption would fall 25% by 2050. Their forecast might turn out to be more accurate for the UK than the UK's own forecast.
A few more auctions for saved capacity would solve the problem for the next 10-20 years or more, but might embarrass the proponents of Hinkley Point C which is said to be essential for all sorts of spurious reasons. So my guess is that they'll be underplayed or won't be held at all.
I'm vegetarian, but would you stand by your statement if "people" were replaced by "cows"?
But it is difficult to be too harsh. I had many clients in the 90s who were working 18 hours a day collecting their crops by floodlight to try and keep their Bank manager in his bonuses and themselves in their houses. It can be a tough life.
Did two more branches of Manchester Metrolink yesterday afternoon: Eccles and the Media City (BBC and ITV next door to each other!).
History shows motorways create their own traffic and eventually open up new opportunities.
While I'm at if I'd also stuff one across the South Downs from Portsmouth to Dover.
One such has a role in my splendid new book, Kingdom Asunder:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kingdom-Asunder-Bloody-Crown-Trilogy-ebook/dp/B01N8UF799/
[I hadn't planned on including one, but when I read that Sir Ulrich Von Liechtenstein has been a transvestite jouster, it seemed sensible].
Also, buy my book. Because it's excellent [and I need the money].
Be sure to complain about the noise of the church bells and nearby morning cockerels. You'll be really popular in no time.
Hell, even a domestic consumer might be tempted to sign up for half-price electricity on condition that they accept the inconvenience of the occasional, planned power cut!
Also Theresa May and Donald Trump have agreed to an early meeting
I also hope the government follow through with their idea to rename the A1 north of Leeds to Newcastle the M1.
Consumers are paying through the nose for a nonsensical and disjointed energy policy. The criteria should be:
1) Security of demand - ensure we can get enough energy. The country's been good at doing this for decades, so we know what to do.
2) Security of supply - where possible, we should not depend on energy supplies from foreign sources that might be cut off. In electricity we've been fairly good at this with coal. In transportation, much less so.
3) Cost. Energy should be affordable.
4) Environment - we should try to generate in as environmentally friendly way as possible, within the constraints of the other three factors.
The new policy is for environmental factors to override the other factors. This is madness.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/29/conservatives-riding-high-polls-theresa-may-leads-labour-almost/
Your characterisation of all farmers as greedy, grasping buggers who care nothing for animal welfare, the environment, nature and so forth is just wrong.
And that's where we're heading.
The UK seems to have had a policy of shutting down heavy industry for quite sometime now. All in order to save the planet, I understand. That the UK still uses aluminium, steel and so forth means that carbon emissions are not actually reduced, merely moved abroad, seems to be beyond some people.
National Grid say this on their website
"The Demand Side Balancing Reserve service (DSBR) is looking to sign up large energy users who have the flexibility to reduce their electricity use - for example by switching to back-up generation - when demand is at its highest between 1600hrs and 2000hrs on winter weekdays. This will be in return for a payment, and on a purely voluntary basis. This will help stimulate a (Demand Side Response or DSR) market which ultimately will help keep energy system costs down for consumers by avoiding the need to build additional power stations to service "peak" demands. National Grid already buys similar demand-side services from a range of businesses, and many large businesses already reduce their electricity usage in peak demand periods to reduce their costs"
The maximum volume needed for the coming winters are set out below:
2014/15: 330MW (DSBR)
2015/16: 1,800MW (DSBR and SBR)
2016/17: 1,300MW
2017/18: 800MW
I know CERN, which has a very large energy requirement has a deal like that with the French power company.
A few key people need the boot before I'll believe we're anywhere near out of the woods.
These sheep farmers earn bu***r all, when I talk to them they are genuinely concerned about their animals,out in all weathers on the fells. They are not greedy grasping at all.
Whilst that that is true, they only run very infrequently, and for short periods, and this mechanism allows us to source more of our power, for more of the time, from renewable sources.
For now, electricity generation does not have to be perfect for the environment, just better....
An all round terrible way to run an economy. Lets pay people to sabotage their business.
Seem's insane for us not to keep just 1 pit going, at least for strategic reserve purposes.