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  • Options
    Mr. Pulpstar, cheers, joined.

    A note to any new players: it's not too difficult to get to grips with (I've only played a few games myself) but the core of the game is interacting with other players. A mute Diplomacy player is as frustrating as a mime artist acting as a radio host.
  • Options

    This is a good question for the Corbynista:

    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 14m14 minutes ago
    Could anyone who is a Corbyn supporter explain why - given Labour is now supposedly "united" - the Tory poll lead continues to widen.

    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?
    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027

    Mr. Rentool, no, it didn't. It was always idiotic.

    The Miliband changes meant the role of MPs had changed to being gatekeepers, from having substantial voting weight. Their task was to only permit credible leaders who found they acceptable onto the shortlist. They failed to understand their own rules, backed a man they didn't want then found out they'd made a terrible mistake.

    There was nothing wrong with Ed Miliband's changes.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/who-are-the-morons-who-nominated-jeremy-corbyn-for-the-labour-leadership-contest-10406527.html

    Some of those 35, Skinner, Burgon, Abbott, McDonnell... clearly wanted Corbyn to become leader.

    It is the ones who nominated and have subsequently reverse ferreted that are getting the punishment they richly deserve.
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    Mr. Pulpstar, I didn't actually criticise the rules, just the PLP's failure to understand them.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, remind us of the URL, could you?

    http://www.playdiplomacy.com/
    I'm in.

    After all not much going on politically...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027

    Mr. Pulpstar, cheers, joined.

    A note to any new players: it's not too difficult to get to grips with (I've only played a few games myself) but the core of the game is interacting with other players. A mute Diplomacy player is as frustrating as a mime artist acting as a radio host.

    I've gone for a leisurely pace - but moves should be resolved as soon as everyone has finalised.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,785
    Patrick said:

    This is a good question for the Corbynista:

    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 14m14 minutes ago
    Could anyone who is a Corbyn supporter explain why - given Labour is now supposedly "united" - the Tory poll lead continues to widen.

    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?
    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027

    Mr. Pulpstar, I didn't actually criticise the rules, just the PLP's failure to understand them.

    The rules were fine. You don't need to have been a "mastermind" to understand that you are indeed the gatekeeper ;)
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    [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2016

    Patrick said:

    This is a good question for the Corbynista:

    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 14m14 minutes ago
    Could anyone who is a Corbyn supporter explain why - given Labour is now supposedly "united" - the Tory poll lead continues to widen.

    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?
    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
    Good luck with that. The more radical the better.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240
    Scott_P said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    The Times tried this stupid filter - and was pwned in 24hrs. I can't be bothered with any MSM now. It's all the same variant of monopoly Establishment viewpoint since 23rd June. They're protecting their pay cheques.

    I've no interest in paying for their propaganda masquerading as news.

    https://twitter.com/aesensten/status/803141756325806083
    Classic!
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    Patrick said:

    This is a good question for the Corbynista:

    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 14m14 minutes ago
    Could anyone who is a Corbyn supporter explain why - given Labour is now supposedly "united" - the Tory poll lead continues to widen.

    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?
    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
    The only Working Men's Club round here closed some 5 years ago. We were once a mining town North Stoke on Trent. Now solidly Conservative,,,
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Mr. 43, given the importance of farmers I wonder if there'd be an extension of the voluntarily expensive milk.

    Mr. Max, understandable advice. [As an aside, it's counter-intuitive but the story a couple of years ago indicated most victims were male].

    The deliberately expensive milk, meat and grains come from tariff quotas. If we "fall back" on WTO rules we won't have them any more and these products will see their farm gate prices fall by a third or more. The same may occur anyway as part of the WTO renegotiations that follow Brexit. That will make most agriculture in Britain uneconomic, certainly on current land values.
    Not necessarily. Look at what happened in New Zealand when they abolished tariffs and subsidies.
    I agree there is a case for abolishing tariffs. The difference with New Zealand is that it is a country with relatively large amounts of land suitable for animal grazing with a small population to be supported by it. The New Zealand experience was a pretty brutal one as well. It wasn't planned but was forced by a crisis.
    90% of New Zealand's agricultural production is exported despite the total lack of subsidies. Their farmers can compete effectively against subsidised farmers overseas. As could ours if our farmers were liberated to farm based on what works productively rather than farming to maximise bureaucracy.

    As for it being forced by a crisis - so what? Necessity is the mother of invention but that doesn't mean we should discard it afterwards. The evidence is that an agricultural free market works so let's embrace it.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "We will not only be more isolated and poorer but we will continue to be frustrated, just as we were in the dim, distant, past before we joined."

    Can't say I felt isolated or frustrated before 1973. Used to travel to the continent several times a year, lived in Portugal for a spell. Didn't even need a full passport to visit most European countries.

    As for poorer, yes we were as a nation but how much our increased prosperity has had to do with the EEC/EC/EU we will never know. Lots of countries outside the EEC/EC/EU have got richer over the past forty years. However, that overall picture doesn't count for much in peoples minds. It is their personal experience that matters not some figures that are meaningless to them.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240

    This is a good question for the Corbynista:

    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 14m14 minutes ago
    Could anyone who is a Corbyn supporter explain why - given Labour is now supposedly "united" - the Tory poll lead continues to widen.

    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?
    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    One of the main requirements is to get an effective communicator. There needs to be one voice and it needs to be heard loud snd often. I've never yet been able to understand whether the relationship between the politburo and the media is so hopeless because

    1. The politburo and/or Milne are clueless
    2. They are trying but the media are ignoring them
    3. Both
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    Mr. Rentool, if it weren't for the PLP itself, idiotically putting Corbyn on the ballot.

    It seemed like a good idea at the time to "widen the debate".
    "Nobody thought that Corbyn/Leave/Trump would actually win!"
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,189

    Mr. Rentool, if it weren't for the PLP itself, idiotically putting Corbyn on the ballot.

    It seemed like a good idea at the time to "widen the debate".
    Only if you are a simpleton of the "Aw, bless" Tendency....
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    Dr. Foxinsox, objective facts. Truth is philosophical.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6YGbunDHLs

    Mr. Dancer, "and zis is how ve say goodbye in Germany": [whack]
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    Scott_P said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    The Times tried this stupid filter - and was pwned in 24hrs. I can't be bothered with any MSM now. It's all the same variant of monopoly Establishment viewpoint since 23rd June. They're protecting their pay cheques.

    I've no interest in paying for their propaganda masquerading as news.

    https://twitter.com/aesensten/status/803141756325806083
    Classic!
    I wonder what inspired it?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027

    Mr. Rentool, if it weren't for the PLP itself, idiotically putting Corbyn on the ballot.

    It seemed like a good idea at the time to "widen the debate".
    "Nobody thought that Corbyn/Leave/Trump would actually win!"
    Jeremy Corbyn, 61.8%
    Leave 52%
    Trump 46%
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    16%


    TITTERS
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027

    16%
    TITTERS

    Who is on 16% ?
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    Pulpstar said:

    16%
    TITTERS

    Who is on 16% ?
    The gap in the icm poll
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    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Rentool, if it weren't for the PLP itself, idiotically putting Corbyn on the ballot.

    It seemed like a good idea at the time to "widen the debate".
    "Nobody thought that Corbyn/Leave/Trump would actually win!"
    Jeremy Corbyn, 61.8%
    Leave 52%
    Trump 46%
    Corbyn should really be quoted as 59.5%, as the original comment related to his initial nomination and the 'loaned' votes.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Crikey, a new PB diplomacy game. The first one was I think in 2008, in which Nick Palmer played England and Andy Cooke shafted me (not that I bear grudges, you understand). I can't resist so I am in. Remind me someone, who is Temujin. Mr. Dancer you don't appear in the list of signed up players. Have I answered my own question?

    I quite like the idea of a more leisurely pace, orders every five days should allow a lot of diploming, as long as people talk.
  • Options

    Mr. Rentool, if it weren't for the PLP itself, idiotically putting Corbyn on the ballot.

    It seemed like a good idea at the time to "widen the debate".
    "Nobody thought that Corbyn/Leave/Trump would actually win!"
    Didn't Rod Crosby call all 3 of those?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,383
    edited November 2016
    Welsh Kippers are 'special' - having your fruitcake and eating it I believe it's known as.

    'Welsh UKIP politician suggests Ireland could access EU funds for Welsh motorway works

    Speaking in the Assembly this afternoon, Assembly Member David Rowlands asked: "Will the First Minister explore the possibility of part of the cost for the M4 improvement scheme being borne by the Irish Government, given that three quarters of all Irish exports to the EU and UK pass along that road?"
    First Minister Carwyn Jones swiftly denied the possibility, saying it is the Welsh Government's responsibility to maintain Welsh roads.
    However, Mr Rowlands followed up by stating: "This is a serious proposition, as I understand Ireland may be able to access funds from the Trans-European highways fund".'

    http://tinyurl.com/jcrvod9
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027
    edited November 2016

    Crikey, a new PB diplomacy game. The first one was I think in 2008, in which Nick Palmer played England and Andy Cooke shafted me (not that I bear grudges, you understand). I can't resist so I am in. Remind me someone, who is Temujin. Mr. Dancer you don't appear in the list of signed up players. Have I answered my own question?

    I quite like the idea of a more leisurely pace, orders every five days should allow a lot of diploming, as long as people talk.

    Superb, we're up to 4 players out of 7 now. Temujin is Morris, I'm fairly certain.
    Orders resolve once all finalised, so bear that in mind (There are some points in the game where 2 days is definitely too long for a single retreat !)
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    Mr. Llama, indeed.

    Temujin was the original name of Genghis Khan.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Welsh Kippers are 'special' - having your fruitcake and eating it I believe it's known as.

    'Welsh UKIP politician suggests Ireland could access EU funds for Welsh motorway works

    Speaking in the Assembly this afternoon, Assembly Member David Rowlands asked: "Will the First Minister explore the possibility of part of the cost for the M4 improvement scheme being borne by the Irish Government, given that three quarters of all Irish exports to the EU and UK pass along that road?"
    First Minister Carwyn Jones swiftly denied the possibility, saying it is the Welsh Government's responsibility to maintain Welsh roads.
    However, Mr Rowlands followed up by stating: "This is a serious proposition, as I understand Ireland may be able to access funds from the Trans-European highways fund".'

    http://tinyurl.com/jcrvod9

    "We will build a great road along the M4 corridor. And Ireland will pay for the road!"
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    Patrick said:

    This is a good question for the Corbynista:

    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 14m14 minutes ago
    Could anyone who is a Corbyn supporter explain why - given Labour is now supposedly "united" - the Tory poll lead continues to widen.

    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?
    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
    Are you thinking of co-opting Paul Nuttall?

    The more basic question is how can the collection of interests, from middle-class liberals to full-blown socialists to client demographics, be held together by *any* radical programme? (Not that Labour is unique in having this problem).

    It's possible that Labour could get elected with a radical manifesto but it'll need a fair wind in terms of the other parties being tired, split and useless, and it'll also need to be delivered to an extent by stealth: it wouldn't be the manifesto that'd win it; it'd be a charismatic leader.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027

    Mr. Rentool, if it weren't for the PLP itself, idiotically putting Corbyn on the ballot.

    It seemed like a good idea at the time to "widen the debate".
    "Nobody thought that Corbyn/Leave/Trump would actually win!"
    Didn't Rod Crosby call all 3 of those?
    Along with NOM 2010 and Ed Balls losing his seat 2015.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,093
    When does it cease to be 'clever', 'amusing' trolling, and become incitement ?

    https://twitter.com/SopanDeb/status/803343633755893760
    No, No think of it, you know, it's Russia after all. Somebody said "are you at all offended that he said nice things about you?" I said, "No, No." And they said "Oh Trump should have been much nastier. That's terrible." And then they said, "You know he's killed reporters," and I don't like that. I'm totally against that.
    By the way I hate some of these people, but I would never kill them. I hate them. No I think these people, honestly. I'll be honest. I would never kill them. I would never do that.
    Ah let's see...
    Nah. I would never kill them. But I do hate them. Some of them are such lying, disgusting people. It's true, it's true.
    [CHEERS]
    I would never kill then and anybody that does I think would be despicable. But you know nobody nobody said, they say he killed reporters. I said, "really?" He says he didn't. Other people say he didn't. Who did he kill. Well, we don't know but we hear that. I said, "Tell me, who did he kill?"

    Just hilarious from a man who will command all the powers of the presidency.

  • Options

    This is a good question for the Corbynista:

    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 14m14 minutes ago
    Could anyone who is a Corbyn supporter explain why - given Labour is now supposedly "united" - the Tory poll lead continues to widen.

    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?
    The polls were pretty much on the mark for both Labour leadership elections, in 2015 and 2016.
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    Mr. Rentool, if it weren't for the PLP itself, idiotically putting Corbyn on the ballot.

    It seemed like a good idea at the time to "widen the debate".
    Only if you are a simpleton of the "Aw, bless" Tendency....
    radical socialist = Aw Bless.
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    Totes amaze balls, it's the end of civilisation.

    Michael Gove has used the word 'totes'

    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/803597274630721536
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    Mr. Eagles, under Enormo-Haddock Voting (EHV) such utterances would be a criminal offence.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,698
    edited November 2016

    Mr. Eagles, under Enormo-Haddock Voting (EHV) such utterances would be a criminal offence.

    Totes agree
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,240

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    Mr. 43, given the importance of farmers I wonder if there'd be an extension of the voluntarily expensive milk.

    Mr. Max, understandable advice. [As an aside, it's counter-intuitive but the story a couple of years ago indicated most victims were male].

    The deliberately expensive milk, meat and grains come from tariff quotas. If we "fall back" on WTO rules we won't have them any more and these products will see their farm gate prices fall by a third or more. The same may occur anyway as part of the WTO renegotiations that follow Brexit. That will make most agriculture in Britain uneconomic, certainly on current land values.
    Not necessarily. Look at what happened in New Zealand when they abolished tariffs and subsidies.
    I agree there is a case for abolishing tariffs. The difference with New Zealand is that it is a country with relatively large amounts of land suitable for animal grazing with a small population to be supported by it. The New Zealand experience was a pretty brutal one as well. It wasn't planned but was forced by a crisis.
    90% of New Zealand's agricultural production is exported despite the total lack of subsidies. Their farmers can compete effectively against subsidised farmers overseas. As could ours if our farmers were liberated to farm based on what works productively rather than farming to maximise bureaucracy.

    As for it being forced by a crisis - so what? Necessity is the mother of invention but that doesn't mean we should discard it afterwards. The evidence is that an agricultural free market works so let's embrace it.
    The trouble is that intensive farming, and subsidy free farming is by its very nature extremely intensive, inevitably passes on its external costs to society and/or the taxpayer in the form of environmental degradation, be it polluted rivers, degraded soils, atmospheric emissions or plant and animal diseases. The cost of cleaning eg nitrate out of drinking water is passed on to the consumer; the figures are eye opening - read Pretty et al, an assessment of the total external costs of UK agriculture - some farming systems do more damage than benefit. That's why regulation is important. But once you start regulating you need to offer incentives not to pollute or to pollute within agreed levels.

    WTO rules with no subsidy could put many small farms out of business. It would favour big units of highly intensive management or niche farming. Hill farms would turn into massive ranches. Some changes might be good, but overall we would see another level of intensification that would lead to further environmental degradation.

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027

    The cost of cleaning eg nitrate out of drinking water is passed on to the consumer; the figures are eye opening - read Pretty et al, an assessment of the total external costs of UK agriculture - some farming systems do more damage than benefit.

    Lol, I knew his daughter a few years back...
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,785

    Patrick said:

    This is a good question for the Corbynista:

    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 14m14 minutes ago
    Could anyone who is a Corbyn supporter explain why - given Labour is now supposedly "united" - the Tory poll lead continues to widen.

    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?
    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
    Are you thinking of co-opting Paul Nuttall?

    The more basic question is how can the collection of interests, from middle-class liberals to full-blown socialists to client demographics, be held together by *any* radical programme? (Not that Labour is unique in having this problem).

    It's possible that Labour could get elected with a radical manifesto but it'll need a fair wind in terms of the other parties being tired, split and useless, and it'll also need to be delivered to an extent by stealth: it wouldn't be the manifesto that'd win it; it'd be a charismatic leader.
    Our last charismatic leader did execute some socialism by stealth in his first term - before he found his true vocation post 9/11. We are seeing around the world that the leader is becoming ever more important, with the policy platform playing second fiddle. I thought that Trump would test this notion to destruction, but he just reinforced it - perhaps a British Varoufakis could do the same here?
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    When winning is not everything.
    "Atletico Nacional player Gilberto García led the calls for the tournament to be awarded to their opponents, saying: 'We want Chapecoense to be champions'. "
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3982644/Atletico-Nacional-ask-Copa-Sudamericana-awarded-Chapecoense-plane-crash.html
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,819
    Pulpstar said:

    Crikey, a new PB diplomacy game. The first one was I think in 2008, in which Nick Palmer played England and Andy Cooke shafted me (not that I bear grudges, you understand). I can't resist so I am in. Remind me someone, who is Temujin. Mr. Dancer you don't appear in the list of signed up players. Have I answered my own question?

    I quite like the idea of a more leisurely pace, orders every five days should allow a lot of diploming, as long as people talk.

    Superb, we're up to 4 players out of 7 now. Temujin is Morris, I'm fairly certain.
    Orders resolve once all finalised, so bear that in mind (There are some points in the game where 2 days is definitely too long for a single retreat !)
    I'm afraid I won't have time to play this time, but I'm sure I'll enjoy observing.
  • Options

    Patrick said:

    This is a good question for the Corbynista:

    (((Dan Hodges))) ‏@DPJHodges 14m14 minutes ago
    Could anyone who is a Corbyn supporter explain why - given Labour is now supposedly "united" - the Tory poll lead continues to widen.

    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?
    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
    Are you thinking of co-opting Paul Nuttall?

    The more basic question is how can the collection of interests, from middle-class liberals to full-blown socialists to client demographics, be held together by *any* radical programme? (Not that Labour is unique in having this problem).

    It's possible that Labour could get elected with a radical manifesto but it'll need a fair wind in terms of the other parties being tired, split and useless, and it'll also need to be delivered to an extent by stealth: it wouldn't be the manifesto that'd win it; it'd be a charismatic leader.
    Our last charismatic leader did execute some socialism by stealth in his first term - before he found his true vocation post 9/11. We are seeing around the world that the leader is becoming ever more important, with the policy platform playing second fiddle. I thought that Trump would test this notion to destruction, but he just reinforced it - perhaps a British Varoufakis could do the same here?
    So that explains your avatar :)
  • Options
    Mr. Cooke, so, you're playing as Switzerland? :p
  • Options
    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,819
    edited November 2016

    Mr. Cooke, so, you're playing as Switzerland? :p

    Lol!

    EDIT: you guys are up to 6 out of 7.
    This is the danger point for me - the old "only one place left..." feeling so popular with marketing and advertising companies.
    [RESISTS]
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Rentool, if it weren't for the PLP itself, idiotically putting Corbyn on the ballot.

    It seemed like a good idea at the time to "widen the debate".
    "Nobody thought that Corbyn/Leave/Trump would actually win!"
    Didn't Rod Crosby call all 3 of those?
    Along with NOM 2010 and Ed Balls losing his seat 2015.
    And his dignity in 2016? :lol:
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,785

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Rentool, if it weren't for the PLP itself, idiotically putting Corbyn on the ballot.

    It seemed like a good idea at the time to "widen the debate".
    "Nobody thought that Corbyn/Leave/Trump would actually win!"
    Didn't Rod Crosby call all 3 of those?
    Along with NOM 2010 and Ed Balls losing his seat 2015.
    And his dignity in 2016? :lol:
    Possibly your best post ever.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027
    AustinJC seems to have turned into "JonathanA"
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,510
    Nigelb said:

    When does it cease to be 'clever', 'amusing' trolling, and become incitement ?

    https://twitter.com/SopanDeb/status/803343633755893760
    No, No think of it, you know, it's Russia after all. Somebody said "are you at all offended that he said nice things about you?" I said, "No, No." And they said "Oh Trump should have been much nastier. That's terrible." And then they said, "You know he's killed reporters," and I don't like that. I'm totally against that.
    By the way I hate some of these people, but I would never kill them. I hate them. No I think these people, honestly. I'll be honest. I would never kill them. I would never do that.
    Ah let's see...
    Nah. I would never kill them. But I do hate them. Some of them are such lying, disgusting people. It's true, it's true.
    [CHEERS]
    I would never kill then and anybody that does I think would be despicable. But you know nobody nobody said, they say he killed reporters. I said, "really?" He says he didn't. Other people say he didn't. Who did he kill. Well, we don't know but we hear that. I said, "Tell me, who did he kill?"

    Just hilarious from a man who will command all the powers of the presidency.

    He may find this useful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

    It really is horrific. These are brave people.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Pulpstar said:

    AustinJC seems to have turned into "JonathanA"

    It happens
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited November 2016
    Bwahaha

    Media Guido
    http://order-order.com/2016/11/29/week-hugo-rifkind/

    "Friday 25th – Evening

    Oh no. Oh no oh no oh no. Someone has traced the quote back to a joke told by a comedian in 2006. Ivanka didn’t say it at all. And my accidental lie has gone halfway round the world. So this is what they mean by all that ‘fake news’ going round.

    I’m going viral again. But in a bad way.

    *according to Guido.
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    ** Diplomacy Post **
    Mr. Pulpstar, if my failing memory serves, you are in Sheffield aren't you? Mr. Dancer is in Leeds, the good Doctor is in Leicester and I am in darkest Sussex. It is good to know these things because, whilst Diplomacy is a play by mail game, sometimes personal meetings are useful or necessary.

    I have in my Diplomacy career conducted negotiations in numerous boozers, restaurants, the Palace of Westminster and a brothel in Macau, though that was not a PB game I hasten to add.

    I wonder if we could persuade Mrs Cyclefree (lady of this parish) to join in. I reckon she would be a fearsome player.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027
    @HurstLlama Well there is one spot left :)
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,510

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    ].

    .
    I agree there is a case for abolishing tariffs. The difference with New Zealand is that it is a country with relatively large amounts of land suitable for animal grazing with a small population to be supported by it. The New Zealand experience was a pretty brutal one as well. It wasn't planned but was forced by a crisis.
    90% of New Zealand's agricultural production is exported despite the total lack of subsidies. Their farmers can compete effectively against subsidised farmers overseas. As could ours if our farmers were liberated to farm based on what works productively rather than farming to maximise bureaucracy.

    As for it being forced by a crisis - so what? Necessity is the mother of invention but that doesn't mean we should discard it afterwards. The evidence is that an agricultural free market works so let's embrace it.
    The trouble is that intensive farming, and subsidy free farming is by its very nature extremely intensive, inevitably passes on its external costs to society and/or the taxpayer in the form of environmental degradation, be it polluted rivers, degraded soils, atmospheric emissions or plant and animal diseases. The cost of cleaning eg nitrate out of drinking water is passed on to the consumer; the figures are eye opening - read Pretty et al, an assessment of the total external costs of UK agriculture - some farming systems do more damage than benefit. That's why regulation is important. But once you start regulating you need to offer incentives not to pollute or to pollute within agreed levels.

    WTO rules with no subsidy could put many small farms out of business. It would favour big units of highly intensive management or niche farming. Hill farms would turn into massive ranches. Some changes might be good, but overall we would see another level of intensification that would lead to further environmental degradation.

    That is a possible outcome but there is also a strong likelihood that many areas, such as hill farms, would simply not be viable at all and return to wilderness rather than being intensively farmed.
  • Options

    Totes amaze balls, it's the end of civilisation.

    Michael Gove has used the word 'totes'

    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/803597274630721536

    That would be an F in GCSE English for Mr Gove...
  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    ].

    .
    I agree there is a case for abolishing tariffs. The difference with New Zealand is that it is a country with relatively large amounts of land suitable for animal grazing with a small population to be supported by it. The New Zealand experience was a pretty brutal one as well. It wasn't planned but was forced by a crisis.
    90% of New Zealand's agricultural production is exported despite the total lack of subsidies. Their farmers can compete effectively against subsidised farmers overseas. As could ours if our farmers were liberated to farm based on what works productively rather than farming to maximise bureaucracy.

    As for it being forced by a crisis - so what? Necessity is the mother of invention but that doesn't mean we should discard it afterwards. The evidence is that an agricultural free market works so let's embrace it.
    The trouble is that intensive farming, and subsidy free farming is by its very nature extremely intensive, inevitably passes on its external costs to society and/or the taxpayer in the form of environmental degradation, be it polluted rivers, degraded soils, atmospheric emissions or plant and animal diseases. The cost of cleaning eg nitrate out of drinking water is passed on to the consumer; the figures are eye opening - read Pretty et al, an assessment of the total external costs of UK agriculture - some farming systems do more damage than benefit. That's why regulation is important. But once you start regulating you need to offer incentives not to pollute or to pollute within agreed levels.

    WTO rules with no subsidy could put many small farms out of business. It would favour big units of highly intensive management or niche farming. Hill farms would turn into massive ranches. Some changes might be good, but overall we would see another level of intensification that would lead to further environmental degradation.

    That is a possible outcome but there is also a strong likelihood that many areas, such as hill farms, would simply not be viable at all and return to wilderness rather than being intensively farmed.
    That might be a welcome change. All that's needed is to do nothing and wait 20 years, by which time deciduous trees will be doing nicely.

    Wooded hills look nicer than sloping manicured lawns with small white dots (sheep) on them. It seems that they resist flooding better too because the forest undergrowth is more absorbent of rainwater and stores it better than pasture.
  • Options
    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Well, have to remember that the EU introduced milk quotas, reduced the quotas for UK farmers to below the market level here and sent the rest overseas to their favourite countries. A lot of UK milk farmers had to close. And we have the absurdity that if you wish to support UK farmers by buying milk with the union jack on the bottle the money from that is also sent abroad, because we can't discriminate.
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,616
    edited November 2016
    Apologies if already posted:

    "Kate Bush says Theresa May is "wonderful":

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38144908
  • Options

    Patrick said:



    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?

    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
    Are you thinking of co-opting Paul Nuttall?

    The more basic question is how can the collection of interests, from middle-class liberals to full-blown socialists to client demographics, be held together by *any* radical programme? (Not that Labour is unique in having this problem).

    It's possible that Labour could get elected with a radical manifesto but it'll need a fair wind in terms of the other parties being tired, split and useless, and it'll also need to be delivered to an extent by stealth: it wouldn't be the manifesto that'd win it; it'd be a charismatic leader.
    Our last charismatic leader did execute some socialism by stealth in his first term - before he found his true vocation post 9/11. We are seeing around the world that the leader is becoming ever more important, with the policy platform playing second fiddle. I thought that Trump would test this notion to destruction, but he just reinforced it - perhaps a British Varoufakis could do the same here?
    It was (and is) Tsipras who led (and leads) Syriza.

    But yes, I think that in the right circumstances a far left leader could indeed win given sufficient organisation, charisma and political nous.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,785

    DavidL said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    ].

    .
    I agree there is a case for abolishing tariffs. The difference with New Zealand is that it is a country with relatively large amounts of land suitable for animal grazing with a small population to be supported by it. The New Zealand experience was a pretty brutal one as well. It wasn't planned but was forced by a crisis.


    As for it being forced by a crisis - so what? Necessity is the mother of invention but that doesn't mean we should discard it afterwards. The evidence is that an agricultural free market works so let's embrace it.


    WTO rules with no subsidy could put many small farms out of business. It would favour big units of highly intensive management or niche farming. Hill farms would turn into massive ranches. Some changes might be good, but overall we would see another level of intensification that would lead to further environmental degradation.

    That is a possible outcome but there is also a strong likelihood that many areas, such as hill farms, would simply not be viable at all and return to wilderness rather than being intensively farmed.
    That might be a welcome change. All that's needed is to do nothing and wait 20 years, by which time deciduous trees will be doing nicely.

    Wooded hills look nicer than sloping manicured lawns with small white dots (sheep) on them. It seems that they resist flooding better too because the forest undergrowth is more absorbent of rainwater and stores it better than pasture.
    Many uplands areas are seriously over grazed, thanks to a subsidy policy that encouraged farmers to pack as many sheep onto the land as they could. When Foot & Mouth struck, suddenly there were wild flowers blooming where normally there is just grass.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,189

    Totes amaze balls, it's the end of civilisation.

    Michael Gove has used the word 'totes'

    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/803597274630721536

    I thought there was only the one Tote?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,785

    Patrick said:



    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?

    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
    Are you thinking of co-opting Paul Nuttall?

    The more basic question is how can the collection of interests, from middle-class liberals to full-blown socialists to client demographics, be held together by *any* radical programme? (Not that Labour is unique in having this problem).

    It's possible that Labour could get elected with a radical manifesto but it'll need a fair wind in terms of the other parties being tired, split and useless, and it'll also need to be delivered to an extent by stealth: it wouldn't be the manifesto that'd win it; it'd be a charismatic leader.
    Our last charismatic leader did execute some socialism by stealth in his first term - before he found his true vocation post 9/11. We are seeing around the world that the leader is becoming ever more important, with the policy platform playing second fiddle. I thought that Trump would test this notion to destruction, but he just reinforced it - perhaps a British Varoufakis could do the same here?
    It was (and is) Tsipras who led (and leads) Syriza.

    But yes, I think that in the right circumstances a far left leader could indeed win given sufficient organisation, charisma and political nous.
    Ah, but Tsipras blinked first - Varoufakis would have won the game of chicken with Brussels/Berlin.
  • Options

    Totes amaze balls, it's the end of civilisation.

    Michael Gove has used the word 'totes'

    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/803597274630721536

    I thought there was only the one Tote?
    No, wot he is saying is that the Tote agrees with the Tweet.
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221

    Apologies if already posted:

    "Kate Bush says Theresa May is "wonderful":

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38144908

    Wow, wow, wow, wow, unbelievable!
  • Options
    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    DavidL said:


    That is a possible outcome but there is also a strong likelihood that many areas, such as hill farms, would simply not be viable at all and return to wilderness rather than being intensively farmed.

    Is it actually possible to intensively farm sheep/cattle on the Hills? I wouldn't have thought that it was. Aside from the introduction of modern conveniences such as the quad bike, the pattern of farming on the Hills is pretty much unchanged over hundreds of years.

    The problems come when we have two conflicting desires. We want cheap meat in the supermarket and we want the gorgeous landscapes of places like the Lake District and the Dales. At the moment the solution is to subsidise the farmer (not that they make much of a living even with subsidies).
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,785
    The thin blue line, or the big blue bumps...

    GMP police chief admits drunken abuse over 'boob job'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38148080
  • Options

    Totes amaze balls, it's the end of civilisation.

    Michael Gove has used the word 'totes'

    https://twitter.com/michaelgove/status/803597274630721536

    That would be an F in GCSE English for Mr Gove...
    And it turns out Michael Gove's glorious schools revolution has not made any difference to our children's ability to count and add up and stuff.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38131731
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,205

    Apologies if already posted:

    "Kate Bush says Theresa May is "wonderful":

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38144908

    Darned it. I might just have to start being a Mayophile. Or is it Mayites, Mayfans or Mayflies now? ;)
  • Options
    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Patrick said:



    A good question *from* the Corbynistas is since when were the polls any guide?

    And that is a real problem. Corbynistas have no reason to believe the polls which were wrong about every ballot within recent memory, and after Brown and Miliband were beaten, no reason to believe a more mainstream leader would be elected. So how are you going to convince them?

    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.
    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
    Are you thinking of co-opting Paul Nuttall?

    The more basic question is how can the collection of interests, from middle-class liberals to full-blown socialists to client demographics, be held together by *any* radical programme? (Not that Labour is unique in having this problem).

    It's possible that Labour could get elected with a radical manifesto but it'll need a fair wind in terms of the other parties being tired, split and useless, and it'll also need to be delivered to an extent by stealth: it wouldn't be the manifesto that'd win it; it'd be a charismatic leader.
    Our last charismatic leader did execute some socialism by stealth in his first term - before he found his true vocation post 9/11. We are seeing around the world that the leader is becoming ever more important, with the policy platform playing second fiddle. I thought that Trump would test this notion to destruction, but he just reinforced it - perhaps a British Varoufakis could do the same here?
    It was (and is) Tsipras who led (and leads) Syriza.

    But yes, I think that in the right circumstances a far left leader could indeed win given sufficient organisation, charisma and political nous.
    The right circumstances as in say, Russia in 1917, China in 1949, Cuba in 1959?
  • Options

    Apologies if already posted:

    "Kate Bush says Theresa May is "wonderful":

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38144908

    Darned it. I might just have to start being a Mayophile. Or is it Mayites, Mayfans or Mayflies now? ;)
    In France they very quickly create juppéistes, fillonistes, lepenistes*

    OK that one is less common...
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Excellent.

    Any woman who wants to wear one can be like nun and join a religious order.

    We'd never condone the general female population wearing habits.
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    Excellent.

    Any woman who wants to wear one can be like nun and join a religious order.

    We'd never condone the general female population wearing habits.
    Nuns are allowed to walk around, aren't they?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,205

    Apologies if already posted:

    "Kate Bush says Theresa May is "wonderful":

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38144908

    Darned it. I might just have to start being a Mayophile. Or is it Mayites, Mayfans or Mayflies now? ;)
    In France they very quickly create juppéistes, fillonistes, lepenistes*

    OK that one is less common...
    LOL.

    Are we now living in a Mayan civilisation?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027

    Apologies if already posted:

    "Kate Bush says Theresa May is "wonderful":

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38144908

    Darned it. I might just have to start being a Mayophile. Or is it Mayites, Mayfans or Mayflies now? ;)
    In France they very quickly create juppéistes, fillonistes, lepenistes*

    OK that one is less common...
    LOL.

    Are we now living in a Mayan civilisation?
    Maybe
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,661
    DavidL said:



    That is a possible outcome but there is also a strong likelihood that many areas, such as hill farms, would simply not be viable at all and return to wilderness rather than being intensively farmed.

    What we need to do is to subsidise the nutritional content within our food, rather than the yield. Nitrate fertilisers (understandably if you apply some thought) result in crops that are bulky but totally starved of the full complement of minerals they should have for healthy people. It's like the difference between a stage set and a house. They also end up just as expensive for farmers with the cost of weedkillers, spraying equipment etc.

    We need to move back to mixed farming, and soils should be enriched with essential minerals to encourage strong growth rather than fertilisers. The landscape would benefit, the taxpayer would benefit, but most of all people would be healthier and stronger.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/3324442/We-want-real-food.html
  • Options

    Patrick said:



    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.

    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
    Are you thinking of co-opting Paul Nuttall?

    The more basic question is how can the collection of interests, from middle-class liberals to full-blown socialists to client demographics, be held together by *any* radical programme? (Not that Labour is unique in having this problem).

    It's possible that Labour could get elected with a radical manifesto but it'll need a fair wind in terms of the other parties being tired, split and useless, and it'll also need to be delivered to an extent by stealth: it wouldn't be the manifesto that'd win it; it'd be a charismatic leader.
    Our last charismatic leader did execute some socialism by stealth in his first term - before he found his true vocation post 9/11. We are seeing around the world that the leader is becoming ever more important, with the policy platform playing second fiddle. I thought that Trump would test this notion to destruction, but he just reinforced it - perhaps a British Varoufakis could do the same here?
    It was (and is) Tsipras who led (and leads) Syriza.

    But yes, I think that in the right circumstances a far left leader could indeed win given sufficient organisation, charisma and political nous.
    The right circumstances as in say, Russia in 1917, China in 1949, Cuba in 1959?
    No need to such extremes. We're only talking about an election, not a revolution.
  • Options
    Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
  • Options
    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Patrick said:



    The first step is to get them to realise that Jezza is a dud. The second step is to offer an option that involves changing the leader but not the manifesto.

    I think you might be a tad confused there Sandy. Yes, people generally speaking hate Jezza. Coz he's a commie. With a commie manifesto. A shiny bright new looking leader with a commie manifesto is going to get creamed just the same. The real challenge for Labour and its leadership and direction / raison d'etre is to learn from history that socialism makes you a lot poorer and a lot less free. No amount of Fidel adulation will change this.
    This is where we have to differ. I believe with the right leader a radical manifesto will see a Labour-led government. The slightly less vanilla approach of Ed enthused no-one. However, I don't mean the Islington version of radical - it has to grounded in the Working Mens' Clubs, not the dinner party circuit.
    Are you thinking of co-opting Paul Nuttall?

    The more basic question is how can the collection of interests, from middle-class liberals to full-blown socialists to client demographics, be held together by *any* radical programme? (Not that Labour is unique in having this problem).

    It's possible that Labour could get elected with a radical manifesto but it'll need a fair wind in terms of the other parties being tired, split and useless, and it'll also need to be delivered to an extent by stealth: it wouldn't be the manifesto that'd win it; it'd be a charismatic leader.
    Our last charismatic leader did execute some socialism by stealth in his first term - before he found his true vocation post 9/11. We are seeing around the world that the leader is becoming ever more important, with the policy platform playing second fiddle. I thought that Trump would test this notion to destruction, but he just reinforced it - perhaps a British Varoufakis could do the same here?
    It was (and is) Tsipras who led (and leads) Syriza.

    But yes, I think that in the right circumstances a far left leader could indeed win given sufficient organisation, charisma and political nous.
    The right circumstances as in say, Russia in 1917, China in 1949, Cuba in 1959?
    No need to such extremes. We're only talking about an election, not a revolution.
    That was my point. In what circumstances here would a far left leader win an election?

    You may be right but I can't see it myself.
  • Options
    paulyork64paulyork64 Posts: 2,461

    ** Diplomacy Post **
    Mr. Pulpstar, if my failing memory serves, you are in Sheffield aren't you? Mr. Dancer is in Leeds, the good Doctor is in Leicester and I am in darkest Sussex. It is good to know these things because, whilst Diplomacy is a play by mail game, sometimes personal meetings are useful or necessary.

    I have in my Diplomacy career conducted negotiations in numerous boozers, restaurants, the Palace of Westminster and a brothel in Macau, though that was not a PB game I hasten to add.

    I wonder if we could persuade Mrs Cyclefree (lady of this parish) to join in. I reckon she would be a fearsome player.

    Sounds like a good game. I'll spectate if i may. I've done most of my playing on webdiplomacy but i guess the rules are the same.
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    Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Didn't know Mike had so many PB servers....
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,510

    DavidL said:


    That is a possible outcome but there is also a strong likelihood that many areas, such as hill farms, would simply not be viable at all and return to wilderness rather than being intensively farmed.

    Is it actually possible to intensively farm sheep/cattle on the Hills? I wouldn't have thought that it was. Aside from the introduction of modern conveniences such as the quad bike, the pattern of farming on the Hills is pretty much unchanged over hundreds of years.

    The problems come when we have two conflicting desires. We want cheap meat in the supermarket and we want the gorgeous landscapes of places like the Lake District and the Dales. At the moment the solution is to subsidise the farmer (not that they make much of a living even with subsidies).
    No it's not. The soil is poor and large areas are needed to sustain each beast which makes the labour input greater and the costs such as fencing greater. We have hill farms because we subsidise them, not because they are economically viable.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Apologies if already posted:

    "Kate Bush says Theresa May is "wonderful":

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38144908

    Darned it. I might just have to start being a Mayophile. Or is it Mayites, Mayfans or Mayflies now? ;)
    In France they very quickly create juppéistes, fillonistes, lepenistes*

    OK that one is less common...
    LOL.

    Are we now living in a Mayan civilisation?
    Not since 2012....
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,027

    Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Didn't know Mike had so many PB servers....
    Back of the queue.
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    Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Probably not, given that the current available outputs are greater than indicated on that site. The current available output of CCGT generation, for example, is about 27 GW, not 25 GW.

    See here for more details:

    http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,667

    Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Probably not, given that the current available outputs are greater than indicated on that site. The current available output of CCGT generation, for example, is about 27 GW, not 25 GW.

    See here for more details:

    http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm
    Plus we can increase our imports from France quite easily.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    edited November 2016
    Sexist white supremacist Elaine Chao gets transportation secretary in Trump's government.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/29/politics/trump-picks-elaine-chao-for-transportation-secretary/index.html
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    MaxPB said:

    Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    Probably not, given that the current available outputs are greater than indicated on that site. The current available output of CCGT generation, for example, is about 27 GW, not 25 GW.

    See here for more details:

    http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm
    Plus we can increase our imports from France quite easily.
    I'm not so sure about that. I seem to remember hearing that the French interconnector is currently limited to half capacity, i.e. 1 GW rather than 2 GW.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,205

    Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    I'm guessing GridWatch's figures don't automatically include capacity that is held in reserve and can be switched on quickly - a function we consumers pay a pretty packet for. I guess as they get switched on the maximum capacity on the figures will alter accordingly.

    However this has been a longstanding disagreement between RCS and myself: I think we're cutting our power generation reserves too close to the bone, and he disagrees.

    I'm not saying we're going to get brownouts; just that the risk of them is too high. And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    ** Diplomacy Post **
    Mr. Pulpstar, if my failing memory serves, you are in Sheffield aren't you? Mr. Dancer is in Leeds, the good Doctor is in Leicester and I am in darkest Sussex. It is good to know these things because, whilst Diplomacy is a play by mail game, sometimes personal meetings are useful or necessary.

    I have in my Diplomacy career conducted negotiations in numerous boozers, restaurants, the Palace of Westminster and a brothel in Macau, though that was not a PB game I hasten to add.

    I wonder if we could persuade Mrs Cyclefree (lady of this parish) to join in. I reckon she would be a fearsome player.

    Sounds like a good game. I'll spectate if i may. I've done most of my playing on webdiplomacy but i guess the rules are the same.
    From what I can see WebDiplomacy is just another online implementation of the the Diplomacy Game. If you fancy joining us then there is still a space left:

    http://www.playdiplomacy.com

    The game name is PB.Com and the password PoliticalBetting
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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited November 2016

    PlatoSaid said:

    Excellent.

    Any woman who wants to wear one can be like nun and join a religious order.

    We'd never condone the general female population wearing habits.
    Nuns are allowed to walk around, aren't they?
    Wrong type of female.

    Can you stop exposing hypocrisy please, it's annoying.
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    MP_SE said:

    Sexist white supremacist Elaine Chao gets transportation secretary in Trump's government.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/29/politics/trump-picks-elaine-chao-for-transportation-secretary/index.html

    Given who her husband is, that's a very shrewd appointment.
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    The Crown Prosecution Service seem to have decided it is in the public interest to prosecute after all - after a few years of deciding otherwise.
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    Off topic, should we be worried that all the electricity-generating capacity seems to be running at (or pretty damn near) maximum, even before people go home and put kettles on?

    http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

    I'm guessing GridWatch's figures don't automatically include capacity that is held in reserve and can be switched on quickly - a function we consumers pay a pretty packet for. I guess as they get switched on the maximum capacity on the figures will alter accordingly.

    However this has been a longstanding disagreement between RCS and myself: I think we're cutting our power generation reserves too close to the bone, and he disagrees.

    I'm not saying we're going to get brownouts; just that the risk of them is too high. And asking industry to cut power usage at certain times is a desperate measure and a sign of failure.
    Gridwatch gets its data from the Elexon portal that I linked to. Its indications of current consumption are accurate, but the fixed limits to the gauges don't properly reflect the changing availability of the different generation capacities.
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    Mr. Evershed, the CPS' judgement is perhaps not a cause for confidence unbounded.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,205

    The Crown Prosecution Service seem to have decided it is in the public interest to prosecute after all - after a few years of deciding otherwise.
    Without discussing this particular case, is there a legal reason why fourteen is important? I would have guessed that 'under sixteen' was the relevant factor.
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    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    MP_SE said:

    Sexist white supremacist Elaine Chao gets transportation secretary in Trump's government.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/29/politics/trump-picks-elaine-chao-for-transportation-secretary/index.html

    Given who her husband is, that's a very shrewd appointment.
    Trump appears to be balancing out the slightly crazier appointments with sensible ones such as Chao.

    Apparently David Clarke is in with a decent shot at the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security role.
This discussion has been closed.