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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Punters remain solidly behind Zac to hold onto Richmond Park

SystemSystem Posts: 12,265
edited November 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Punters remain solidly behind Zac to hold onto Richmond Park

The chart above based on Betfair prices shows Zac Goldsmith holding on well in the betting at least in the Richmond Park by-election which was caused by his resignation as a CON MP in protest at the government’s decision to go ahead with the Heathrow expansion.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    edited November 2016
    First like Fillon and Farron
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    edited November 2016
    Second like Rob
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,155
    No bung for you now, TSE ;)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,155
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    But I guess he'd prefer the RAF and the government to ignore the clearly expressed will of Parliament about Syrian intervention? Even the number of sorties they are doing is pushing the boundaries of their mandate.
    Why do you want the terrorists to win?
    I don't.

    Cameron didn't need to seek Parliamentary authorisation, but he chose to. Unless Parliament revisits their position then that remains a constraint on how the executive can act.
    Does the lost vote legally mean we can't fight in Syria? I thought military action was still a prerogative power?
    Not a constitutional lawyer* but the executive acting against clear instructions of Parliament (even if prerogative power) is definitely murky water

    * although I did study constitutional government at uni for s&g
    I guess HMG could argue that the situation has changed?
    Then go back to Parliament and argue the case
    Has the loss of the vote precluded any use of the royal prerogative to wage war in Syria?
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited November 2016
    This looks ugly stuff

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/11/20/world/europe/ap-eu-norway-pedophile-network.html?_r=0&referer=https://t.co/Jrpd86W7lC

    "HELSINKI — Norwegian police say they investigating a pedophile network suspected to involve at least 51 people, which includes the abuse of infants and at least one case of a suspect acknowledging abusing his own children.

    Deputy Police Chief Gunnar Floystad says that in Norway's largest abuse case to date they have arrested 20 men so far, with three convictions, in western Norway. The 31 other suspects are from other regions in Norway.

    Floystad told reporters Sunday that many of the suspects are highly educated, and include lawyers and politicians. He said he could not reveal more details pending the conclusion of the investigation, known as "Dark Room," which began in 2015...
  • I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/799707376144105473
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,227
    Zac is home and dry.

    My father, who lives in the constituency, is backing the LDs. He has backed every single losing cause you could imagine since about 1990. He has a reputation in our family as a Dr Doom that even exceeds Gordon Brown's.

    So his backing of the LDs is the best possible news Zac could have.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,155

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/799707376144105473

    I think we are all disappointed in the lack of bar chart ;)
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/799707376144105473

    Desperate stuff.

    They've raised expectations too far *again* and are going to get stuffed, aren't they.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,905
    Mortimer said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/799707376144105473

    Desperate stuff.

    They've raised expectations too far *again* and are going to get stuffed, aren't they.
    Desperate stuff is the 'scandal' that Olney's husband knows something about infrastructure projects.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,296

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469
  • I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/799707376144105473

    So Goldsmith is mates with one of the world's most influential politicians whereas the LibDems are .....

    What the LibDems need is a new, distinctive policy.

    I suggest that they give a signed pledge to oppose any increases in university tuition fees.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,400
    edited November 2016
    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    The pro third runway candidate if there is one.

    If not I'd spoil my ballot paper by drawing a giant phallus on my ballot paper and an arrow pointing to Zac's name.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295

    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    The pro third runway candidate if there is one.

    If not I'd spoil my ballot by drawing a giant phallus on my ballot paper and an arrow pointing to Zac's name.
    Most returning officers would regard that as a hard vote for Zac.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,332

    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    The pro third runway candidate if there is one.

    If not I'd spoil my ballot by drawing a giant phallus on my ballot paper and an arrow pointing to Zac's name.
    Is there one?
  • JohnO said:

    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    The pro third runway candidate if there is one.

    If not I'd spoil my ballot by drawing a giant phallus on my ballot paper and an arrow pointing to Zac's name.
    Most returning officers would regard that as a hard vote for Zac.
    This would be clearly flaccid.
  • MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    The pro third runway candidate if there is one.

    If not I'd spoil my ballot by drawing a giant phallus on my ballot paper and an arrow pointing to Zac's name.
    Is there one?
    Pass.
  • Good morning, everyone.
  • So this Fillon bloke - who nobody on PB seemed to have heard of a week ago - is now favourite to become President of France.

    Meanwhile Juppe - who we were told was a certainty - flopped badly.

    Two conclusions might be drawn:

    1) Elections continue to produce surprise results
    2) PB isn't as knowledgeable as it thinks it is
  • timmo said:
    Is it gutter politics or are the LibDems trying to shift the byelection away from Heathrow and onto Brexit? Presumably hoping the good people of Richmond are agin it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    edited November 2016
    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    The pro third runway candidate if there is one.

    If not I'd spoil my ballot by drawing a giant phallus on my ballot paper and an arrow pointing to Zac's name.
    Is there one?
    There were suggestions of a pro-LHR3 Tory standing as an independent Con - not sure whether this came to anything.

    Edit/ Fiona Syms
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,296

    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    The pro third runway candidate if there is one.

    If not I'd spoil my ballot paper by drawing a giant phallus on my ballot paper and an arrow pointing to Zac's name.
    It looks like Fiona Syms is the one for you:

    http://tinyurl.com/hjebsmc

    Pro-remain (ish) and pro third runway (apparently). However, this might put you off voting for her:

    http://tinyurl.com/zyjc45x

  • So this Fillon bloke - who nobody on PB seemed to have heard of a week ago - is now favourite to become President of France.

    Meanwhile Juppe - who we were told was a certainty - flopped badly.

    Two conclusions might be drawn:

    1) Elections continue to produce surprise results
    2) PB isn't as knowledgeable as it thinks it is

    If you look back a thread or several, there are lots of pb punters talking about backing Fillon from 7/1 down. As a latecomer to the party, I took 11/4 yesterday.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    JohnO said:

    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    The pro third runway candidate if there is one.

    If not I'd spoil my ballot by drawing a giant phallus on my ballot paper and an arrow pointing to Zac's name.
    Most returning officers would regard that as a hard vote for Zac.
    If it was upwards pointing one could perhaps conclude his vote was err....firming up?
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    Just heard the news about the unprovoked assault on Gorka Marquez in Blackpool.

    What a lovely country we live in these days.
  • tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    The pro third runway candidate if there is one.

    If not I'd spoil my ballot paper by drawing a giant phallus on my ballot paper and an arrow pointing to Zac's name.
    It looks like Fiona Syms is the one for you:

    http://tinyurl.com/hjebsmc

    Pro-remain (ish) and pro third runway (apparently). However, this might put you off voting for her:

    http://tinyurl.com/zyjc45x

    I like her.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,296

    So this Fillon bloke - who nobody on PB seemed to have heard of a week ago - is now favourite to become President of France.

    Meanwhile Juppe - who we were told was a certainty - flopped badly.

    Two conclusions might be drawn:

    1) Elections continue to produce surprise results
    2) PB isn't as knowledgeable as it thinks it is

    If you look back a thread or several, there are lots of pb punters talking about backing Fillon from 7/1 down. As a latecomer to the party, I took 11/4 yesterday.
    Yes, PB does make mistakes, but it tends to spot the mistakes early enough to correct them.
  • Just heard the news about the unprovoked assault on Gorka Marquez in Blackpool.

    What a lovely country we live in these days.

    Link please. He's lovely.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,155

    Just heard the news about the unprovoked assault on Gorka Marquez in Blackpool.

    What a lovely country we live in these days.

    Link please. He's lovely.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-38047558
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838

    Just heard the news about the unprovoked assault on Gorka Marquez in Blackpool.

    What a lovely country we live in these days.

    Link please. He's lovely.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38047558
  • RobD said:
    Bring it to zero and push taxes in other areas (dividends etc)
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    If you missed the fart speech

    Hassan
    Meanwhile in Canada .. https://t.co/nS8ZkzFnbq
  • RobD said:

    Just heard the news about the unprovoked assault on Gorka Marquez in Blackpool.

    What a lovely country we live in these days.

    Link please. He's lovely.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-38047558

    Just heard the news about the unprovoked assault on Gorka Marquez in Blackpool.

    What a lovely country we live in these days.

    Link please. He's lovely.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-38047558
    Thanks.

    Bring back the death penalty for the [moderated] who attacked Gorka the corker.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291

    timmo said:
    Is it gutter politics or are the LibDems trying to shift the byelection away from Heathrow and onto Brexit? Presumably hoping the good people of Richmond are agin it.
    That was always both the obvious and the reasonable strategy.

    After all. It's the issue of the day and there are significant differences between the candidates.

    Otherwise the election would be a vanity one for Zac with the other principal party candidates all taking an identical stance. Which would be a pointless waste of money and not be asking the voters of Richmond anything at all.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    America Called Bullshit on the Cult of Clinton

    Be careful, I would not want anyone having neck injuries nodding in agreement with this article.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,919
    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Just heard the news about the unprovoked assault on Gorka Marquez in Blackpool.

    What a lovely country we live in these days.

    Link please. He's lovely.
    how do we know it was unprovoked.. it wasn't even reported to the police.. sounds fishy to me.. BBC doesn't want a bad strictly story morelike.
  • So this Fillon bloke - who nobody on PB seemed to have heard of a week ago - is now favourite to become President of France.

    Meanwhile Juppe - who we were told was a certainty - flopped badly.

    Two conclusions might be drawn:

    1) Elections continue to produce surprise results
    2) PB isn't as knowledgeable as it thinks it is

    If you look back a thread or several, there are lots of pb punters talking about backing Fillon from 7/1 down. As a latecomer to the party, I took 11/4 yesterday.
    And well done to all those who are green on the French election.

    I wonder though how many are down overall having previously bet on the supposed certainty Juppe.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,296
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I see there aren't that many first round polls with Fillon in. It will be interesting to see how they move over next couple of months.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,296
    If the first round was looking tight, would it be illegal for FN to try to lend some votes to their preferred opponent? Perhaps they could instruct voters with a surname beginning with certain letters to vote for someone else. It would be a risky strategy, but would it be against the rules?
  • rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I'd just put a bit on Macron - it certainly looks the value bet.

    Fillon's too risky at odds on in the current political climate and I can't see Marine winning.

    Is there any possibility that Bayrou could get through to the second round ?

  • The Lady is for turning.

    She's no Margaret Thatcher.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,905
    edited November 2016

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I'd just put a bit on Macron - it certainly looks the value bet.

    Fillon's too risky at odds on in the current political climate and I can't see Marine winning.

    Is there any possibility that Bayrou could get through to the second round ?

    Almost none.

    The main wildcard at the moment is who the Socialist candidate will be. It seems inconceivable to me that Hollande would want to put himself through the humiliation of a campaign so there could be a surprise package. Once Hollande pulls out then the heavyweights can declare.
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711
    edited November 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I think that following yesterday's surprise result, we will have one more major surprise in this market before next May.

    It COULD be Juppe overcoming Fillon next weekend, but I doubt that because the Fillon surprise of yesterday has not fully unwound yet. Fillon's supporters will be pumped up to finish the job next weekend and Juppe's supporters will be loathe to pay their two euro's to vote for someone so far behind in yesterday's contest.

    So yes, Macron is a good bet to spring the next surprise and, as you point out, if Bayrou withdraws, then it is game on.

    The other possible surprise, of course, is a Le Pen victory.

    If a week is along time in politics then the 22 weeks we have left before the market is settled is a very long time.

    Plenty of time for events to cause further twists and turns before this market is done with.
  • rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I'd just put a bit on Macron - it certainly looks the value bet.

    Fillon's too risky at odds on in the current political climate and I can't see Marine winning.

    Is there any possibility that Bayrou could get through to the second round ?

    Almost none.

    The main wildcard at the moment is who the Socialist candidate will be. It seems inconceivable to me that Hollande would want to put himself through the humiliation of a campaign so there could be a surprise package.
    500/1 though is tempting for £2 and I wouldn't rule anything out in the current circumstances.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    BudG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I think that following yesterday's surprise result, we will have one more major surprise in this market before next May.

    It COULD be Juppe overcoming Fillon next weekend, but I doubt that because the Fillon surprise of yesterday has not fully unwound yet. Fillon's supporters will be pumped up to finish the job next weekend and Juppe's supporters will be loathe to pay their two euro's to vote for someone so far behind in yesterday's contest.

    So yes, Macron is a good bet to spring the next surprise and, as you point out, if Bayrou withdraws, then it is game on.

    The other possible surprise, of course is a Le Pen victory.

    If a week is along time in politics then the 22 weeks we have left before the market is settled is a very long time.

    Plenty of time for events to cause further twists and turns before this market is done with.
    Surely you don't have to pay the two euros again, for the second round?
  • Workers on boards has certainly hobbled German industry.
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711
    IanB2 said:

    BudG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I think that following yesterday's surprise result, we will have one more major surprise in this market before next May.

    It COULD be Juppe overcoming Fillon next weekend, but I doubt that because the Fillon surprise of yesterday has not fully unwound yet. Fillon's supporters will be pumped up to finish the job next weekend and Juppe's supporters will be loathe to pay their two euro's to vote for someone so far behind in yesterday's contest.

    So yes, Macron is a good bet to spring the next surprise and, as you point out, if Bayrou withdraws, then it is game on.

    The other possible surprise, of course is a Le Pen victory.

    If a week is along time in politics then the 22 weeks we have left before the market is settled is a very long time.

    Plenty of time for events to cause further twists and turns before this market is done with.
    Surely you don't have to pay the two euros again, for the second round?
    Not sure, will check that out with my French contact and get back to you on that.
  • The Lady is for turning.

    She's no Margaret Thatcher.
    If you want to go all 'Tory Boy', she's closer to Thatcher than Cameron ever was.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,978

    Just heard the news about the unprovoked assault on Gorka Marquez in Blackpool.

    What a lovely country we live in these days.

    Link please. He's lovely.
    how do we know it was unprovoked.. it wasn't even reported to the police.. sounds fishy to me.. BBC doesn't want a bad strictly story morelike.
    The fact they didn't report it to the police, yet he had two teeth knocked out, is odd.
  • Mr. G, another potential factor could be terrorism. Not only the memory of the many recent attacks, but fresh ones. I hope there aren't, of course, but it's a real possibility.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,997
    edited November 2016
    "If the yellows were able to create a swing as the 19%+ achieved in Witney then they could win"

    Nah. Con will end the night on zero, so the Libs Dems would have a 19%+ swing even if they poll just a single vote. They'll need a lot more than that to win.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    "Blundering Boris Johnson has been accused of bringing the wrong notes to a Brexit meeting with Theresa May. The bumbling Foreign Secretary was said to have prompted "groans of disapproval" when he made the gaffe at a Downing Street get-together.
    According to sources who spoke to the Mail on Sunday, the incident happened at Thursday's meeting of the Cabinet Brexit committee.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,919

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I'd just put a bit on Macron - it certainly looks the value bet.

    Fillon's too risky at odds on in the current political climate and I can't see Marine winning.

    Is there any possibility that Bayrou could get through to the second round ?

    Unlikely, I think. His 'moment' was two cycles ago in 2007, when he ran Segolene Royal close for second place. The shine has come off the MoDem movement somewhat since then, although he remains personally very popular in Pau.
  • RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,919
    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Absolutely right, and a point that is sadly missed by most.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I'd just put a bit on Macron - it certainly looks the value bet.

    Fillon's too risky at odds on in the current political climate and I can't see Marine winning.

    Is there any possibility that Bayrou could get through to the second round ?

    Unlikely, I think. His 'moment' was two cycles ago in 2007, when he ran Segolene Royal close for second place. The shine has come off the MoDem movement somewhat since then, although he remains personally very popular in Pau.
    I do wonder what the chances are of a Melenchon / Le Pen run-off. The centre is getting very crowded with bad candidates.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,919
    edited November 2016

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I'd just put a bit on Macron - it certainly looks the value bet.

    Fillon's too risky at odds on in the current political climate and I can't see Marine winning.

    Is there any possibility that Bayrou could get through to the second round ?

    Almost none.

    The main wildcard at the moment is who the Socialist candidate will be. It seems inconceivable to me that Hollande would want to put himself through the humiliation of a campaign so there could be a surprise package.
    500/1 though is tempting for £2 and I wouldn't rule anything out in the current circumstances.
    It is perfectly possible there are four five* candidates all in the teens: Macron, Fillon, Bayrou, Melenchon and the Socialist**. In those circumstances small bets on the outsiders looks tempting.

    * I can't count.
    ** Le Pen would beat Hollande and Melenchon, but I'm unconvinced she would do particularly well against either Fillon or Macron.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,332
    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Increase the dividend tax rate to to 45% and get rid of corporation tax!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,919

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I'd just put a bit on Macron - it certainly looks the value bet.

    Fillon's too risky at odds on in the current political climate and I can't see Marine winning.

    Is there any possibility that Bayrou could get through to the second round ?

    Unlikely, I think. His 'moment' was two cycles ago in 2007, when he ran Segolene Royal close for second place. The shine has come off the MoDem movement somewhat since then, although he remains personally very popular in Pau.
    I do wonder what the chances are of a Melenchon / Le Pen run-off. The centre is getting very crowded with bad candidates.
    Getting two hard Left candidates in the run off would not be good for France. It's why I think Bayrou may drop out, especially if he's offered a seat in a winner's cabinet. (He was previously Minister for Education.)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,919
    MaxPB said:

    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Increase the dividend tax rate to to 45% and get rid of corporation tax!
    Dividends are just income and should be charged accordingly.
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711
    BudG said:

    IanB2 said:

    BudG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I think that following yesterday's surprise result, we will have one more major surprise in this market before next May.

    It COULD be Juppe overcoming Fillon next weekend, but I doubt that because the Fillon surprise of yesterday has not fully unwound yet. Fillon's supporters will be pumped up to finish the job next weekend and Juppe's supporters will be loathe to pay their two euro's to vote for someone so far behind in yesterday's contest.

    So yes, Macron is a good bet to spring the next surprise and, as you point out, if Bayrou withdraws, then it is game on.

    The other possible surprise, of course is a Le Pen victory.

    If a week is along time in politics then the 22 weeks we have left before the market is settled is a very long time.

    Plenty of time for events to cause further twists and turns before this market is done with.
    Surely you don't have to pay the two euros again, for the second round?
    Not sure, will check that out with my French contact and get back to you on that.
    He tells me that yes, they do have to pay another two euro's again to vote next weekend.
  • The Lady is for turning.

    She's no Margaret Thatcher.

    It was a very, very stupid thing to say in the first place.

    Tax cuts for the best off and for big business. It's just more of the same.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,291
    BudG said:

    BudG said:

    IanB2 said:

    BudG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I think that following yesterday's surprise result, we will have one more major surprise in this market before next May.

    It COULD be Juppe overcoming Fillon next weekend, but I doubt that because the Fillon surprise of yesterday has not fully unwound yet. Fillon's supporters will be pumped up to finish the job next weekend and Juppe's supporters will be loathe to pay their two euro's to vote for someone so far behind in yesterday's contest.

    So yes, Macron is a good bet to spring the next surprise and, as you point out, if Bayrou withdraws, then it is game on.

    The other possible surprise, of course is a Le Pen victory.

    If a week is along time in politics then the 22 weeks we have left before the market is settled is a very long time.

    Plenty of time for events to cause further twists and turns before this market is done with.
    Surely you don't have to pay the two euros again, for the second round?
    Not sure, will check that out with my French contact and get back to you on that.
    He tells me that yes, they do have to pay another two euro's again to vote next weekend.
    I guess the money pays for the costs. In which case you are right that Juppe's supporters might think twice before signing up to lose again.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,332
    BudG said:

    BudG said:

    IanB2 said:

    BudG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I think that following yesterday's surprise result, we will have one more major surprise in this market before next May.

    It COULD be Juppe overcoming Fillon next weekend, but I doubt that because the Fillon surprise of yesterday has not fully unwound yet. Fillon's supporters will be pumped up to finish the job next weekend and Juppe's supporters will be loathe to pay their two euro's to vote for someone so far behind in yesterday's contest.

    So yes, Macron is a good bet to spring the next surprise and, as you point out, if Bayrou withdraws, then it is game on.

    The other possible surprise, of course is a Le Pen victory.

    If a week is along time in politics then the 22 weeks we have left before the market is settled is a very long time.

    Plenty of time for events to cause further twists and turns before this market is done with.
    Surely you don't have to pay the two euros again, for the second round?
    Not sure, will check that out with my French contact and get back to you on that.
    He tells me that yes, they do have to pay another two euro's again to vote next weekend.
    If Labour's leadership election was just £2 to vote Corbyn could just be given the position on a permanent basis!
  • rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    What about Valls at around 50/1 as the replacement for Hollande, assuming he drops out?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,332
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Increase the dividend tax rate to to 45% and get rid of corporation tax!
    Dividends are just income and should be charged accordingly.
    Hence 45%!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Increase the dividend tax rate to to 45% and get rid of corporation tax!
    Dividends are just income and should be charged accordingly.
    Hence 45%!
    Seems a bit harsh of those small business owners who would take less than the 45% rate threshold as dividends...
  • Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Increase the dividend tax rate to to 45% and get rid of corporation tax!
    Dividends are just income and should be charged accordingly.
    Hence 45%!
    Seems a bit harsh of those small business owners who would take less than the 45% rate threshold as dividends...
    As owners, they could take it as income instead.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Absolutely right, and a point that is sadly missed by most.

    The UK already has one of the lowest CT rates of any major economy. We can see how companies have behaved on the back of it. Wages outside the boardroom have stagnated, R&D spend is sclerotic.

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    MaxPB said:

    BudG said:

    BudG said:

    IanB2 said:

    BudG said:

    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, I think people are wrong to count Macron out. In the polling, he's only just behind Fillon in the first round (17.5% vs 19%), and Fillon's socially conservative, economically Thatcherite message doesn't go down that well with everyone in France.

    Macron's big problem is that he's fighting for the centrist vote with Bayrou, who's currently on about 8% in the polls. If Bayrou were to choose not to stand, which is by no means unlikely, then that 20-1 would look very, very tempting.

    I think that following yesterday's surprise result, we will have one more major surprise in this market before next May.

    It COULD be Juppe overcoming Fillon next weekend, but I doubt that because the Fillon surprise of yesterday has not fully unwound yet. Fillon's supporters will be pumped up to finish the job next weekend and Juppe's supporters will be loathe to pay their two euro's to vote for someone so far behind in yesterday's contest.

    So yes, Macron is a good bet to spring the next surprise and, as you point out, if Bayrou withdraws, then it is game on.

    The other possible surprise, of course is a Le Pen victory.

    If a week is along time in politics then the 22 weeks we have left before the market is settled is a very long time.

    Plenty of time for events to cause further twists and turns before this market is done with.
    Surely you don't have to pay the two euros again, for the second round?
    Not sure, will check that out with my French contact and get back to you on that.
    He tells me that yes, they do have to pay another two euro's again to vote next weekend.
    If Labour's leadership election was just £2 to vote Corbyn could just be given the position on a permanent basis!
    The whole 'pay to play' element of leadership elections on this country needs to stop. Too many SJW who are happy to pay money rather than actually contribute to a party in terms of volunteerism, standing as councillors, local party officials etc.

    With rights come certain responsibilities.
  • Mr. Mortimer, you sound like you dislike the Miliband micro-transactions model of leadership elections.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mr. Mortimer, you sound like you dislike the Miliband micro-transactions model of leadership elections.

    Hehe. What gave it away?!?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,919
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Increase the dividend tax rate to to 45% and get rid of corporation tax!
    Dividends are just income and should be charged accordingly.
    Hence 45%!
    Not everyone is a super higher rate taxpayer!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Increase the dividend tax rate to to 45% and get rid of corporation tax!
    Dividends are just income and should be charged accordingly.
    Hence 45%!
    Seems a bit harsh of those small business owners who would take less than the 45% rate threshold as dividends...
    As owners, they could take it as income instead.
    True. But it is would be a massive disincentive to small business ownership. The current lower rate is there to recognise that there is an element of risk involved. Agreed some people take the piss - but wouldn't it be fairer to tighten the rules rather than get rid of the playground?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Incidentally, one of my pet theories is that Blair did well as leader because he was supported by small businesses who did very well out of ltd company small income rates...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,332
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Increase the dividend tax rate to to 45% and get rid of corporation tax!
    Dividends are just income and should be charged accordingly.
    Hence 45%!
    Not everyone is a super higher rate taxpayer!
    They aren't?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    So what does Zac's resignation actually prove ? A waste of a lot of public money. The government he supports will not change its policy.
  • Mr. Surbiton, it proves he keeps his promises. Including the stupid ones.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Mortimer said:

    Incidentally, one of my pet theories is that Blair did well as leader because he was supported by small businesses who did very well out of ltd company small income rates...

    No. He was a Tory who was the leader of the Labour Party.
  • The far left is the far right, part 8,912:
    * Both want to "democratise" the courts
    * Both believe media coverage that they do not like is biased.
    * Both back Putin.
    * Both back hard Brexit.
    * Both back tax cuts for the best off.
    * Both have welcomed Trump's victory in the US.

    This really is back to the 1970s. Can the centre hold?
  • The far left is the far right, part 8,912:
    * Both want to "democratise" the courts
    * Both believe media coverage that they do not like is biased.
    * Both back Putin.
    * Both back hard Brexit.
    * Both back tax cuts for the best off.
    * Both have welcomed Trump's victory in the US.

    This really is back to the 1970s. Can the centre hold?

    Has always been thus.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,301
    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    Jesus Christ, Fenton.
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Patrick said:

    RobD said:
    Many commentators like Tim Worstall at the Adam Smith Institute have been pointing out for years that CT doesn't really fall on companies - they're inanimate. More tax on profits means less money to pay staff, shareholders, bondholders (all of which are separately taxed anyway). A zero tax rate for CT is actually a fine idea, as long as the resulting diversion of cashflow back to the three interested groups is sensibly taxed.
    Increase the dividend tax rate to to 45% and get rid of corporation tax!
    Dividends are just income and should be charged accordingly.
    Hence 45%!
    Not everyone is a super higher rate taxpayer!
    Just gross it up and apply marginal tax rates/ allowance variation. The only difference is that there is no employer's NI on Dividends. (Remember that there is a 7.5% tax on dividend income at the moment).
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited November 2016
    IanB2 said:

    "Blundering Boris Johnson has been accused of bringing the wrong notes to a Brexit meeting with Theresa May. The bumbling Foreign Secretary was said to have prompted "groans of disapproval" when he made the gaffe at a Downing Street get-together.
    According to sources who spoke to the Mail on Sunday, the incident happened at Thursday's meeting of the Cabinet Brexit committee.

    Nothing new there. He probably bumbled a few words in Latin to show how smart he was.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,419

    The Lady is for turning.

    She's no Margaret Thatcher.

    It was a very, very stupid thing to say in the first place.

    Tax cuts for the best off and for big business. It's just more of the same.

    Brexit will mean buying off a raft of special interest groups with diminished revenues. Brexit will screw the poor bloody infantry, who voted for it in a cry to be heard, more comprehensively than ever.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    dr_spyn said:

    tlg86 said:

    I did like this from the Lib Dems in Richmond Park

    Who would you be voting for if you lived in Richmond Park?
    Jesus Christ, Fenton.
    The abolition of the ludicrous 20mph speed limit
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,721
    surbiton said:
    Go on lose your money sucker
  • surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    Incidentally, one of my pet theories is that Blair did well as leader because he was supported by small businesses who did very well out of ltd company small income rates...

    No. He was a Tory who was the leader of the Labour Party.
    Jeez Labour are screwed then. The only Labour leader to win a general election in the last 42 years was a Tory.

    Time to wind up the Labour Party.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    The Lady is for turning.

    She's no Margaret Thatcher.
    Worse. She thinks she is Margaret Thatcher.
  • surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    Incidentally, one of my pet theories is that Blair did well as leader because he was supported by small businesses who did very well out of ltd company small income rates...

    No. He was a Tory who was the leader of the Labour Party.

    This is why the left always loses.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    FF43 said:

    The Lady is for turning.

    She's no Margaret Thatcher.

    It was a very, very stupid thing to say in the first place.

    Tax cuts for the best off and for big business. It's just more of the same.

    Brexit will mean buying off a raft of special interest groups with diminished revenues. Brexit will screw the poor bloody infantry, who voted for it in a cry to be heard, more comprehensively than ever.
    They were heard and then they were royally screwed.
  • Mr. Surbiton, Article 50 hasn't been triggered. The negotiation has not even begun. Far too early to comment on the short term impact of the vote, let alone the long term result.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,419
    surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    Incidentally, one of my pet theories is that Blair did well as leader because he was supported by small businesses who did very well out of ltd company small income rates...

    No. He was a Tory who was the leader of the Labour Party.
    He was the "wet" Tory Thatcher systematically got rid of. Combined with being leader of the Labour Party he was unbeatable
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Mr. Surbiton, it proves he keeps his promises. Including the stupid ones.

    Is there a place for Justine Greening to sulk ? Or, does she know better that R3 will never be built.

    For the record, I am for R3.
This discussion has been closed.