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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » CON lead over LAB drops 9% in latest Ipsos MORI phone poll

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  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    edited November 2016
    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?

    Earlier this year, a computer (AlphaGo) beat the one of the best ranked humans Lee Sodol 4 v 1 after five matches.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    justin124 said:

    Essexit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Labour going to score 33% at the next general election? Looks like the next polling disaster is already in the making...

    33% might just be accurate in the hypothetical event of an election tomorrow with no warning.

    In the real world there will be six weeks of Conservative billboards with Corbyn/McDonnell quotes about the IRA/Hamas/printing money, perhaps plus a concerted UKIP campaign in the North.
    Opinium had Labour on 32% just over a week ago.

    On the whole, Governments tend to lose ground in the formal election campaign period.
    We are not in 'on the whole' times here.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?


    AlphaGo is now beating the leading human players, as of this year.

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,298
    edited November 2016
    PClipp said:

    justin124 said:

    I would pitch the LibDems lower than that at 9/10% simply because they now have so much competition as the NOTA option.Many who in the past would have supported them on that basis will now opt for the Greens or UKIP.

    I think you are running about two years behind the times, Mr Justin.
    +1

    Why be Green when you can love Corbyn, and why be UKIP when it's 'job done' and both Banks and Farage are about to take their energies and £ elsewhere?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907

    Sandpit said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    F**k, how is that even possible - is the control fully manual with no safety backups?
    From the discussion a few days ago, it appears the speed limit elsewhere is higher, and only the max speed is capped. The tram doesn't "know" it's on a 12 MPH section.
    Yes, from a quick skim of the report the speed limit dropped from 80kph to 20kph for the turn, the tram barely slowed and hit the turn at 70kph. Tram had a 'black box' recording driver inputs, but as you say it doesn't appear there's any mechanism to automatically slow the tram as it flies past a speed limit sign. Looks like the driver was either asleep or distracted unfortunately.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045
    Sandpit said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    F**k, how is that even possible - is the control fully manual with no safety backups?

    RAIB report :
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/569620/IR012016_161116_Sandilands_Jn.pdf
    There are very few automated systems because trams ('light rail') are treated under different regulations from both heavy rail and busses, AIUI.

    From what I've read the trams have a deadmans' handle-type thing, but there is very little signalling. This is because trams traditionally run along roads. The problem appears to be where the tram rums along an old railway line, and therefore can get up to highish speeds, before transitioning to on-street running.

    In this, it's a bit like the Spanish high-speed rail crash of a few years ago, which occurred on a transition between high- and low-speed sections.

    As an aside, the Cambridge (mis)Guided Bus has suffered a number of accidents over the last couple of years, including busses ending up on their sides. The investigations have appeared short, and the drivers blamed and sacked perfunctorily. This is, to my mind, a really bad thing, as causal factors won't be discovered.

    At least RAIB's involved in Croydon.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Does anyone agree with me, that the media in this country has never been so inept, so dire and justso embarrassingly awful.

    I see Sophy Ridge (SKY) is being given a new Sunday Politics Show. WHY? Do we really need another one, with the same people just dashing from studio to studio?

    I've stopped watching it. I was very unimpressed over post-Brexit - and Trump has just confirmed it. The DT has just tweeted an article about a 'source' that 'allegedly part of the transition team' rubbishing Trump.

    Seriously? This isn't news - it's gossip of the lowest kind. Fake news is too kind.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    edited November 2016
    CD13 said:

    The Labour recipe for success.

    Keep Jezza locked away in Mrs Rochester's attic.

    Then set fire to the attic....
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    Essexit said:

    justin124 said:

    Essexit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Labour going to score 33% at the next general election? Looks like the next polling disaster is already in the making...

    33% might just be accurate in the hypothetical event of an election tomorrow with no warning.

    In the real world there will be six weeks of Conservative billboards with Corbyn/McDonnell quotes about the IRA/Hamas/printing money, perhaps plus a concerted UKIP campaign in the North.
    Opinium had Labour on 32% just over a week ago.

    On the whole, Governments tend to lose ground in the formal election campaign period.
    We are not in 'on the whole' times here.
    You need to be careful with dismissing 'on the whole' arguments completely though. POTUS fundamentally pointed toward a GOP victory off of historic precedents.

    Corbyn's Labour definitely looks to be in a piss weak position to me though.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Afternoon everyone. I've managed to avoid politics for a whole 48 hours. Lovely.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    IanB2 said:

    weejonnie said:

    justin124 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    International Spectator
    Willing to fight for country.

    Pakistan: 89%
    India: 75%
    Turkey: 73%
    China: 71%
    Russia: 59%
    US: 44%
    UK: 27%
    Germany: 18%
    Japan: 11%

    (Gallup)

    Surely the response is likely to be dependent on the cause! Many would fight to defend their country from invasion who would have no wish to participate in British aggression in Iraq.
    The worrying thing about the data is the top two. Totally incompatible with each other and both having nuclear weapons.
    Surely it mainly illustrates that what we would call the 'middle class' (and upper) in each of these countries will generally say 'no'? Look at it in that light, and the data seems almost entirely explained. Factor in residual anti-militarism in the WWII aggressors and you are there.
    I would offer an alternative explanation. Pakistan and India are in direct conflict at the moment, albeit through the proxy of Kashmir, but people are being killed daily in this direct conflict.

    Turkey has recently had a coup and has a war on its doorstep.

    China and Russia run militaristic governments and are both in very expansionist mindsets (South China sea for China, Middle East and Eastern Europe for Russia).

    The West is at peace and has no real immediate threat of getting sucked into wars on their own patch (terrorism excluded)

    My thesis is that it is the proximity of the threat that yields these numbers. If war were to erupt in France with a danger of spilling into the UK, you'd see our numbers go up into the 80s and 90s very, very quickly.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited November 2016

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    A tragedy that could so easily have been avoided. No doubt there will now be recommendation to install automatic breaking on all tram lines?
  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    Do you know why there were so many fatalities? It looked from the images like it fell over and slid to a halt - more of a cuts and bruises sort of thing, with a few broken bones for the unlucky.
  • Options
    Mr. T, I think that's an astute observation on the nature of nations and the willingness of citizens to fight.

    Miss Plato, if you ask nicely, Lily Allen may apologise to you on behalf of Sky.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    AndyJS said:

    Afternoon everyone. I've managed to avoid politics for a whole 48 hours. Lovely.

    Slacker.....
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,996
    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    ...We only have a Parliament because we can't have referenda on every matter. It's a practicability issue....

    No it isn't. "The People" generally want their cake and eat it too. Lower taxes and better public services. In the single market but no free movement of people. That is the kind of childish behaviour that can be exploited by demagogues backed by foreign owned media.

    We need a representative democracy with dedicated MPs to make the difficult trade-offs that "The people" are incapable of. If you don't like the way they do it, you can vote them out next time. That is what our democracy is about.

    Germany has forbidden the use of referenda for a reason.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited November 2016

    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?


    AlphaGo is now beating the leading human players, as of this year.

    Thanks. Is that for the normal version of Go, or a competition version of the rules that limits multi-player aspects and non-zero sum outcomes?
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    Afternoon everyone. I've managed to avoid politics for a whole 48 hours. Lovely.

    Now you're here, would you mind telling us all what the final result of the US election in percentage terms will be? Ideally including turnout :)
  • Options
    Mr. Barnesian, if Germans had had a vote, perhaps they wouldn't've allowed in over a million totally unvetted foreigners (which had the charming side-effect of pissing off most of their neighbours).
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?

    The most recent game series was won by a computer. However that does not mean that your desktop computer has the capacity to run the program to beat a human while complying with the time rules. (There is no time limit IIRC - when you run out of normal time you are given a short period (1 minute) to make each move - Byo Yomi).

    There have been accusations in high-level chess games of people going to the toilet to do a quick analysis of their position on a computer.

    Go, like chess, is a game where the status is fully analyseable and I assume that tree pruning is still used for simple life-and-death situations of the armies. However there are so many more combinations available that depth-first analysis is pretty hopeless. I would assume that the latest AI machines are able to analyse the whole-board position (influence, territory) as well as target individual areas.

    Programmes playing bridge or other card games have incomplete information and they tend to run multiple simulations consistent with the information that they do have and work out the best chance of optimising the result. (Humans cheat in Bridge by exchanging information illegally between them.)
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,298
    AndyJS said:

    Afternoon everyone. I've managed to avoid politics for a whole 48 hours. Lovely.

    Welcome back. While you have been slacking there have been plenty of others working away to keep the PB plates a-spinning...
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Thanks all for your comments on Go. I don't know the game, so think I'll have to look at that and how AlphaGo won before reading more of Case's book.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907

    Sandpit said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    F**k, how is that even possible - is the control fully manual with no safety backups?

    RAIB report :
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/569620/IR012016_161116_Sandilands_Jn.pdf
    There are very few automated systems because trams ('light rail') are treated under different regulations from both heavy rail and busses, AIUI.

    From what I've read the trams have a deadmans' handle-type thing, but there is very little signalling. This is because trams traditionally run along roads. The problem appears to be where the tram rums along an old railway line, and therefore can get up to highish speeds, before transitioning to on-street running.

    In this, it's a bit like the Spanish high-speed rail crash of a few years ago, which occurred on a transition between high- and low-speed sections.

    As an aside, the Cambridge (mis)Guided Bus has suffered a number of accidents over the last couple of years, including busses ending up on their sides. The investigations have appeared short, and the drivers blamed and sacked perfunctorily. This is, to my mind, a really bad thing, as causal factors won't be discovered.

    At least RAIB's involved in Croydon.
    The accident was on the corner where the old rail line turns to meet the on-street line, where a significant change of speed is required.

    If the RAIB are anything like the AAIB, they'll issue a comprehensive final report and not stop short of understanding all the factors behind the accident. They will make such recommendations as to prevent a single error from causing another similar accident. This will undoubtedly include a means of alerting the driver to an overspeed, and probably recommend research on automated brakeing systems.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045
    Anorak said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    Do you know why there were so many fatalities? It looked from the images like it fell over and slid to a halt - more of a cuts and bruises sort of thing, with a few broken bones for the unlucky.
    Note: heavy speculation follows:

    According to the RAIB document Mr Pit posted, the tram slid on its side for 25 metres. Tram sides are mostly glass, and the ground surface uneven, with tracks, ballast shoulders and other items. The glass shatters, and people get trapped between ground and sliding tram.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?

    Go is a two player game, it is "too complex" to 'solve'

    Computers were terrible at it previously.

    Deep Mind thrashed Lee Sedol, the world champ at it - Now. It doesn't 'solve' the game, but uses evolving algorithms as it plays itself.
    Thanks. So it uses genetic algorithms. Hmm...
  • Options
    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    MTimT said:

    IanB2 said:

    weejonnie said:

    justin124 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    International Spectator
    Willing to fight for country.

    Pakistan: 89%
    India: 75%
    Turkey: 73%
    China: 71%
    Russia: 59%
    US: 44%
    UK: 27%
    Germany: 18%
    Japan: 11%

    (Gallup)

    Surely the response is likely to be dependent on the cause! Many would fight to defend their country from invasion who would have no wish to participate in British aggression in Iraq.
    The worrying thing about the data is the top two. Totally incompatible with each other and both having nuclear weapons.
    Surely it mainly illustrates that what we would call the 'middle class' (and upper) in each of these countries will generally say 'no'? Look at it in that light, and the data seems almost entirely explained. Factor in residual anti-militarism in the WWII aggressors and you are there.
    I would offer an alternative explanation. Pakistan and India are in direct conflict at the moment, albeit through the proxy of Kashmir, but people are being killed daily in this direct conflict.

    Turkey has recently had a coup and has a war on its doorstep.

    China and Russia run militaristic governments and are both in very expansionist mindsets (South China sea for China, Middle East and Eastern Europe for Russia).

    The West is at peace and has no real immediate threat of getting sucked into wars on their own patch (terrorism excluded)

    My thesis is that it is the proximity of the threat that yields these numbers. If war were to erupt in France with a danger of spilling into the UK, you'd see our numbers go up into the 80s and 90s very, very quickly.
    I'm sure you're right, and anyway it's easy to read far too much into this sort of thing, as Hitler reportedly did after the King and Country Debate.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    IanB2 said:

    PClipp said:

    justin124 said:

    I would pitch the LibDems lower than that at 9/10% simply because they now have so much competition as the NOTA option.Many who in the past would have supported them on that basis will now opt for the Greens or UKIP.

    I think you are running about two years behind the times, Mr Justin.
    +1

    Why be Green when you can love Corbyn, and why be UKIP when it's 'job done' and both Banks and Farage are about to take their energies and £ elsewhere?
    The point is that in the past many people voted LibDem - or Liberal - despite not supporting their policy agendas at all. Many were anti - EU and quite a few had racist views more likely to be associated with the BNP.They voted LibDem simply out of a wish to reject both Tories and Labour.Today they continue to be beneficiaries of such votes - but have much more competition.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?


    AlphaGo is now beating the leading human players, as of this year.

    Thanks. Is that for the normal version of Go, or a competition version of the rules that limits multi-player aspects and non-zero sum outcomes?

    Go is a two-player game. Each side places black/white pieces to conquer the board. Rules are straightforward, but it is considered more complex than chess to master.

    I am not aware of any multi-player aspects.

  • Options
    weejonnie said:

    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?

    The most recent game series was won by a computer. However that does not mean that your desktop computer has the capacity to run the program to beat a human while complying with the time rules. (There is no time limit IIRC - when you run out of normal time you are given a short period (1 minute) to make each move - Byo Yomi).

    There have been accusations in high-level chess games of people going to the toilet to do a quick analysis of their position on a computer.

    Go, like chess, is a game where the status is fully analyseable and I assume that tree pruning is still used for simple life-and-death situations of the armies. However there are so many more combinations available that depth-first analysis is pretty hopeless. I would assume that the latest AI machines are able to analyse the whole-board position (influence, territory) as well as target individual areas.

    Programmes playing bridge or other card games have incomplete information and they tend to run multiple simulations consistent with the information that they do have and work out the best chance of optimising the result. (Humans cheat in Bridge by exchanging information illegally between them.)
    No human cheats at bridge! People who cheat at bridge are inhuman.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    It still strikes me as odd that an accident where essentially a vehicle tilts through 90 degrees should kill seven people. Thee must have been a terrible amount of internal destruction to have inflicted that. I'd be wanting to look at the construction of the whole fleet.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Fascinating blog post from Scott Adams

    http://blog.dilbert.com/post/153259019196/the-hypnosis-lawyer

    "But if I have taught you anything this year it is that mass delusions – and small group delusions – are totally common and expected in life. On the other hand, the rise of the world’s most powerful super-hypnotist – who can’t win a jury trial – is unlikely..."
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045
    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?

    Go is a two player game, it is "too complex" to 'solve'

    Computers were terrible at it previously.

    Deep Mind thrashed Lee Sedol, the world champ at it - Now. It doesn't 'solve' the game, but uses evolving algorithms as it plays itself.
    Thanks. So it uses genetic algorithms. Hmm...
    Tim, I read this yesterday:
    http://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2016/11/decades-after-deadly-lab-accident-a-secret-russian-bioweapon-decoded/

    Thought it was just up your street, though you're probably all to aware of it.
  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2016

    Anorak said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    Do you know why there were so many fatalities? It looked from the images like it fell over and slid to a halt - more of a cuts and bruises sort of thing, with a few broken bones for the unlucky.
    Note: heavy speculation follows:

    According to the RAIB document Mr Pit posted, the tram slid on its side for 25 metres. Tram sides are mostly glass, and the ground surface uneven, with tracks, ballast shoulders and other items. The glass shatters, and people get trapped between ground and sliding tram.
    Oh. How horrible. :anguished:
  • Options

    PlatoSaid said:

    International Spectator
    Willing to fight for country.

    Pakistan: 89%
    India: 75%
    Turkey: 73%
    China: 71%
    Russia: 59%
    US: 44%
    UK: 27%
    Germany: 18%
    Japan: 11%

    (Gallup)

    No more banzai charges, then.
    Not many Light Brigade ones either by the look of it.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    MTimT said:

    Thanks all for your comments on Go. I don't know the game, so think I'll have to look at that and how AlphaGo won before reading more of Case's book.

    Go: A game for those who are bored with chess.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,298
    justin124 said:

    IanB2 said:

    PClipp said:

    justin124 said:

    I would pitch the LibDems lower than that at 9/10% simply because they now have so much competition as the NOTA option.Many who in the past would have supported them on that basis will now opt for the Greens or UKIP.

    I think you are running about two years behind the times, Mr Justin.
    +1

    Why be Green when you can love Corbyn, and why be UKIP when it's 'job done' and both Banks and Farage are about to take their energies and £ elsewhere?
    The point is that in the past many people voted LibDem - or Liberal - despite not supporting their policy agendas at all. Many were anti - EU and quite a few had racist views more likely to be associated with the BNP.They voted LibDem simply out of a wish to reject both Tories and Labour.Today they continue to be beneficiaries of such votes - but have much more competition.
    I think you will find, however, that all of the parties draw significant support from people who don't support (or are even aware of) their policy agenda. Not least because it is a well established fact that as many people vote 'against' what they don't want as are attracted positively to the party of their choice. There was a recent example in a high profile contest, let me see if I can find a link....
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    edited November 2016
    Anorak said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    Do you know why there were so many fatalities? It looked from the images like it fell over and slid to a halt - more of a cuts and bruises sort of thing, with a few broken bones for the unlucky.
    The interim report didn't make mention of injuries, although the final report will. There were reportedly around 60 passengers on board, knowing if that number would mean lots were standing would be a good starting point. Unfortunately the RAIB believe the CCTV on board to have been unserviceable at the time of the accident. The tram slid for approx 25 metres, during which time it decelerated from 70kph (20m/s) to a standstill - assuming a linear deceleration would have been a 1.2s stop, at just under 2g. That's not a massive g-force, so there must have been serious damage to the vehicle itself. Sad.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    AFAIK AlphaGo uses a huge neural network (i.e. pattern recognition) and built up a huge knowledge by playing millions of games against itself, as well as against humans.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    F**k, how is that even possible - is the control fully manual with no safety backups?

    RAIB report :
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/569620/IR012016_161116_Sandilands_Jn.pdf
    There are very few automated systems because trams ('light rail') are treated under different regulations from both heavy rail and busses, AIUI.

    From what I've read the trams have a deadmans' handle-type thing, but there is very little signalling. This is because trams traditionally run along roads. The problem appears to be where the tram rums along an old railway line, and therefore can get up to highish speeds, before transitioning to on-street running.

    In this, it's a bit like the Spanish high-speed rail crash of a few years ago, which occurred on a transition between high- and low-speed sections.

    As an aside, the Cambridge (mis)Guided Bus has suffered a number of accidents over the last couple of years, including busses ending up on their sides. The investigations have appeared short, and the drivers blamed and sacked perfunctorily. This is, to my mind, a really bad thing, as causal factors won't be discovered.

    At least RAIB's involved in Croydon.
    The accident was on the corner where the old rail line turns to meet the on-street line, where a significant change of speed is required.

    If the RAIB are anything like the AAIB, they'll issue a comprehensive final report and not stop short of understanding all the factors behind the accident. They will make such recommendations as to prevent a single error from causing another similar accident. This will undoubtedly include a means of alerting the driver to an overspeed, and probably recommend research on automated brakeing systems.
    RAIB are excellent at finding and listing causal factors. If anything, I think their reports are better (and more accessible) than the AAIB.

    From what I've read, there are problems with automated systems in trams, not helped by the plethora of different tram systems out there. I'm far from being a tramways expert though.
  • Options
    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2016
    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    Do you know why there were so many fatalities? It looked from the images like it fell over and slid to a halt - more of a cuts and bruises sort of thing, with a few broken bones for the unlucky.
    The interim report didn't make mention of injuries, although the final report will. There were reportedly around 60 passengers on board, knowing if that number would mean lots were standing would be a good starting point. Unfortunately the RAIB believe the CCTV on board to have been unserviceable at the time of the accident. The tram slid for approx 25 metres, during which time it decelerated from 70kph to a standstill - that's quite a g-force, assuming a linear deceleration would have been 1.2s stop, at just under 2g.
    2g is nothing. You get more than that on a roller-coaster*. I think Josias' suggestion of a "cheese-grater" effect is more convincing.

    * Sometimes a lot more: http://rollercoaster.wikia.com/wiki/Highest_G-Force_on_a_Roller_Coaster
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    AndyJS said:
    That means that Trump's margin there has now dropped below 0.25%. Would that not trigger an automatic recount there?
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    Do you know why there were so many fatalities? It looked from the images like it fell over and slid to a halt - more of a cuts and bruises sort of thing, with a few broken bones for the unlucky.
    The interim report didn't make mention of injuries, although the final report will. There were reportedly around 60 passengers on board, knowing if that number would mean lots were standing would be a good starting point. Unfortunately the RAIB believe the CCTV on board to have been unserviceable at the time of the accident. The tram slid for approx 25 metres, during which time it decelerated from 70kph (20m/s) to a standstill - assuming a linear deceleration would have been a 1.2s stop, at just under 2g. That's not a massive g-force, so there must have been serious damage to the vehicle itself. Sad.
    I think I read somewhere that the windows against the ground smashed and some people ended up therefore on moving tarmac and getting dragged under the sliding body of the tram.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907

    weejonnie said:

    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?

    The most recent game series was won by a computer. However that does not mean that your desktop computer has the capacity to run the program to beat a human while complying with the time rules. (There is no time limit IIRC - when you run out of normal time you are given a short period (1 minute) to make each move - Byo Yomi).

    There have been accusations in high-level chess games of people going to the toilet to do a quick analysis of their position on a computer.

    Go, like chess, is a game where the status is fully analyseable and I assume that tree pruning is still used for simple life-and-death situations of the armies. However there are so many more combinations available that depth-first analysis is pretty hopeless. I would assume that the latest AI machines are able to analyse the whole-board position (influence, territory) as well as target individual areas.

    Programmes playing bridge or other card games have incomplete information and they tend to run multiple simulations consistent with the information that they do have and work out the best chance of optimising the result. (Humans cheat in Bridge by exchanging information illegally between them.)
    No human cheats at bridge! People who cheat at bridge are inhuman.
    Didn't we used to say the same about cricket?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,609
    edited November 2016
    Just looking through some of the data, if Trump is going to end all amnesties and turn back illegal immigration I think that puts Nevada into play for the GOP and takes Texas and Georgia off the endangered list for them. For the former even after all of those reports of record early votes, record Hispanic turnout Trump closed the margin for the GOP. It also puts Colorado into play IMO.

    Also, Trump has pulled ahead of Romney in terms of the raw vote. This idea that he pulled in fewer voters than Romney should be consigned to the dustbin because it isn't true. If anything Trump should beat Romney quite handily even with Johnson eating into Trump's base in safe GOP states.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    IanB2 said:

    justin124 said:

    IanB2 said:

    PClipp said:

    justin124 said:

    I would pitch the LibDems lower than that at 9/10% simply because they now have so much competition as the NOTA option.Many who in the past would have supported them on that basis will now opt for the Greens or UKIP.

    I think you are running about two years behind the times, Mr Justin.
    +1

    Why be Green when you can love Corbyn, and why be UKIP when it's 'job done' and both Banks and Farage are about to take their energies and £ elsewhere?
    The point is that in the past many people voted LibDem - or Liberal - despite not supporting their policy agendas at all. Many were anti - EU and quite a few had racist views more likely to be associated with the BNP.They voted LibDem simply out of a wish to reject both Tories and Labour.Today they continue to be beneficiaries of such votes - but have much more competition.
    I think you will find, however, that all of the parties draw significant support from people who don't support (or are even aware of) their policy agenda. Not least because it is a well established fact that as many people vote 'against' what they don't want as are attracted positively to the party of their choice. There was a recent example in a high profile contest, let me see if I can find a link....
    That is true but there is evidence that a lot of LibDem support over the years has been 'easy come easy go!'. Little underlying core support.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045
    Patrick said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    Do you know why there were so many fatalities? It looked from the images like it fell over and slid to a halt - more of a cuts and bruises sort of thing, with a few broken bones for the unlucky.
    The interim report didn't make mention of injuries, although the final report will. There were reportedly around 60 passengers on board, knowing if that number would mean lots were standing would be a good starting point. Unfortunately the RAIB believe the CCTV on board to have been unserviceable at the time of the accident. The tram slid for approx 25 metres, during which time it decelerated from 70kph (20m/s) to a standstill - assuming a linear deceleration would have been a 1.2s stop, at just under 2g. That's not a massive g-force, so there must have been serious damage to the vehicle itself. Sad.
    I think I read somewhere that the windows against the ground smashed and some people ended up therefore on moving tarmac and getting dragged under the sliding body of the tram.
    That's my impression. See below. Except it's not tarmac. The tram might well have slid along or over rails, meaning there would have been gaps, sometimes momentarily.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    justin124 said:

    AndyJS said:
    That means that Trump's margin there has now dropped below 0.25%. Would that not trigger an automatic recount there?
    Michigan: A mandatory recount if 2,000 votes or less separate the top two candidates. Candidates can petition for a recount due to fraud or a counting error.

    No.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    edited November 2016

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    F**k, how is that even possible - is the control fully manual with no safety backups?

    RAIB report :
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/569620/IR012016_161116_Sandilands_Jn.pdf
    There are very few automated systems because trams ('light rail') are treated under different regulations from both heavy rail and busses, AIUI.

    From what I've read the trams have a deadmans' handle-type thing, but there is very little signalling. This is because trams traditionally run along roads. The problem appears to be where the tram rums along an old railway line, and therefore can get up to highish speeds, before transitioning to on-street running.

    In this, it's a bit like the Spanish high-speed rail crash of a few years ago, which occurred on a transition between high- and low-speed sections.

    As an aside, the Cambridge (mis)Guided Bus has suffered a number of accidents over the last couple of years, including busses ending up on their sides. The investigations have appeared short, and the drivers blamed and sacked perfunctorily. This is, to my mind, a really bad thing, as causal factors won't be discovered.

    At least RAIB's involved in Croydon.
    The accident was on the corner where the old rail line turns to meet the on-street line, where a significant change of speed is required.

    If the RAIB are anything like the AAIB, they'll issue a comprehensive final report and not stop short of understanding all the factors behind the accident. They will make such recommendations as to prevent a single error from causing another similar accident. This will undoubtedly include a means of alerting the driver to an overspeed, and probably recommend research on automated brakeing systems.
    RAIB are excellent at finding and listing causal factors. If anything, I think their reports are better (and more accessible) than the AAIB.

    From what I've read, there are problems with automated systems in trams, not helped by the plethora of different tram systems out there. I'm far from being a tramways expert though.
    Me neither, but I'm familiar with the work of the AAIB - they are the best in the world in their field.

    As a starting point, a tram-activated or GPS-based siren sounding before the corner would make sure a sleepy or distracted driver hit the brake on time. More signage before the corner would also help.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    Anorak said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    Do you know why there were so many fatalities? It looked from the images like it fell over and slid to a halt - more of a cuts and bruises sort of thing, with a few broken bones for the unlucky.
    The interim report didn't make mention of injuries, although the final report will. There were reportedly around 60 passengers on board, knowing if that number would mean lots were standing would be a good starting point. Unfortunately the RAIB believe the CCTV on board to have been unserviceable at the time of the accident. The tram slid for approx 25 metres, during which time it decelerated from 70kph to a standstill - that's quite a g-force, assuming a linear deceleration would have been 1.2s stop, at just under 2g.
    2g is nothing. You get more than that on a roller-coaster*. I think Josias' suggestion of a "cheese-grater" effect is more convincing.

    * Sometimes a lot more: http://rollercoaster.wikia.com/wiki/Highest_G-Force_on_a_Roller_Coaster
    Agreed, and edited my earlier post.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    @AndyJS Whats your source for the Michigan numbers

    State website gives:

    http://miboecfr.nictusa.com/election/results/2016GEN_CENR.html

    2,277,914 Trump
    2,264,807 Clinton
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Why are the media making such a fuss about the teenager who decided to leave home for a few days? After all, Tony Blair apparently slept rough in Leicester Square when he was 16 and no-one thought that was especially important.

    http://news.sky.com/story/bored-schoolboy-arthur-heeler-frood-slept-rough-in-london-10659432
  • Options
    One thing's for sure. Should he ever be called upon, Pence would be a change president.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    Data and actual vote counting/statistics seems absolubtely shit in the USA compared to here.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    edited November 2016
    Anorak said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Tram that derailed in Croydon killing seven people was travelling at 43.5mph in a 12mph zone, investigators say

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38003934

    Do you know why there were so many fatalities? It looked from the images like it fell over and slid to a halt - more of a cuts and bruises sort of thing, with a few broken bones for the unlucky.
    The interim report didn't make mention of injuries, although the final report will. There were reportedly around 60 passengers on board, knowing if that number would mean lots were standing would be a good starting point. Unfortunately the RAIB believe the CCTV on board to have been unserviceable at the time of the accident. The tram slid for approx 25 metres, during which time it decelerated from 70kph to a standstill - that's quite a g-force, assuming a linear deceleration would have been 1.2s stop, at just under 2g.
    2g is nothing. You get more than that on a roller-coaster*. I think Josias' suggestion of a "cheese-grater" effect is more convincing.

    * Sometimes a lot more: http://rollercoaster.wikia.com/wiki/Highest_G-Force_on_a_Roller_Coaster
    There really should be some form of external roll-bars to protect against this possibility then.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,011
    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?

    Thank you, I'll add it to my list

  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?

    Go is a two player game, it is "too complex" to 'solve'

    Computers were terrible at it previously.

    Deep Mind thrashed Lee Sedol, the world champ at it - Now. It doesn't 'solve' the game, but uses evolving algorithms as it plays itself.
    Thanks. So it uses genetic algorithms. Hmm...
    Tim, I read this yesterday:
    http://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2016/11/decades-after-deadly-lab-accident-a-secret-russian-bioweapon-decoded/

    Thought it was just up your street, though you're probably all to aware of it.
    Thanks for the link. I had missed that particular article, but know the subject matter well. I wrote the Nature review of the authoritative book on this, Leitenberg and Zilinskas "The Soviet Biological Weapons Program" and I am good friends of long standing of the husband and wife team who did the initial Western epidemiological investigation - Jeanne Guillemin and Matt Meselson:

    http://www.politicsandthelifesciences.org/Biosecurity_course_folder/readings/guillemin.pdf

    I think the article you cite somewhat overstates the achievements in stating that "However, the final product was infectious bacteria that could evade immune responses as well as multiple drugs." I think that was the aim, but getting all of the desired features into the bug at the same time was problematic, and preventing the bug from evolving out the new features was even more so. The article does go onto hint at this, but my review of Ray and Milton's book gives you more detail about the problems

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v489/n7416/full/489364a.html?message-global=remove
  • Options
    Sandpit said:

    weejonnie said:

    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?

    The most recent game series was won by a computer. However that does not mean that your desktop computer has the capacity to run the program to beat a human while complying with the time rules. (There is no time limit IIRC - when you run out of normal time you are given a short period (1 minute) to make each move - Byo Yomi).

    There have been accusations in high-level chess games of people going to the toilet to do a quick analysis of their position on a computer.

    Go, like chess, is a game where the status is fully analyseable and I assume that tree pruning is still used for simple life-and-death situations of the armies. However there are so many more combinations available that depth-first analysis is pretty hopeless. I would assume that the latest AI machines are able to analyse the whole-board position (influence, territory) as well as target individual areas.

    Programmes playing bridge or other card games have incomplete information and they tend to run multiple simulations consistent with the information that they do have and work out the best chance of optimising the result. (Humans cheat in Bridge by exchanging information illegally between them.)
    No human cheats at bridge! People who cheat at bridge are inhuman.
    Didn't we used to say the same about cricket?
    I was simply aiming for the true scotsman... of course people cheat.

    I avoid cheating by repeatedly misremembering which convention is which and how to bid them...
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    The margin in Michigan is the equivalent to a candidate in a typical UK constituency having a lead of just 120 votes.Such a margin would almost certainly result in a full - rather than a bundle - recount.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045
    Sandpit said:

    Me neither, but I'm familiar with the work of the AAIB - they are the best in the world in their field.

    As a starting point, a tram-activated or GPS-based siren sounding before the corner would make sure a sleepy or distracted driver hit the brake on time. More signage before the corner would also help.

    More signage: definitely. As for this crash, we cannot assume it was the driver's fault. There might have been other factors causing, or contributing, to it.

    AIUI heavy rail's had considerable problems with the reliability of GPS-based systems, though there is promise:
    http://www.railway-technology.com/features/feature121215/

    Most railways prefer to use trackside balises to communicate with the train. Basically: if you pass this point and you're going above x MPH, apply full emergency brake.

    Also AIUI, these trams are fitted with electrmagnetic eddy current brakes that are *very* effective in stopping quickly, sometimes to the detriment of passengers within.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balise
  • Options
    Has anyone got the popular vote figures for the House?

    If not, who is likely win the popular vote there, the Dems or the GOP?
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Has anyone got the popular vote figures for the House?

    If not, who is likely win the popular vote there, the Dems or the GOP?

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oArjXSYeg40u4qQRR93qveN2N1UELQ6v04_mamrKg9g/edit#gid=0
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?


    AlphaGo is now beating the leading human players, as of this year.

    Thanks. Is that for the normal version of Go, or a competition version of the rules that limits multi-player aspects and non-zero sum outcomes?

    Go is a two-player game. Each side places black/white pieces to conquer the board. Rules are straightforward, but it is considered more complex than chess to master.

    I am not aware of any multi-player aspects.

    Thanks again.
  • Options
    AndyJS said:

    Has anyone got the popular vote figures for the House?

    If not, who is likely win the popular vote there, the Dems or the GOP?

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oArjXSYeg40u4qQRR93qveN2N1UELQ6v04_mamrKg9g/edit#gid=0
    Ta
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited November 2016
    So when Trump Tweeted it was a lie a request had been made for high level security clearance for his kids that was not true:
    https://twitter.com/redstate/status/798737906970087424
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    MaxPB said:

    Just looking through some of the data, if Trump is going to end all amnesties and turn back illegal immigration I think that puts Nevada into play for the GOP and takes Texas and Georgia off the endangered list for them. For the former even after all of those reports of record early votes, record Hispanic turnout Trump closed the margin for the GOP. It also puts Colorado into play IMO.

    Also, Trump has pulled ahead of Romney in terms of the raw vote. This idea that he pulled in fewer voters than Romney should be consigned to the dustbin because it isn't true. If anything Trump should beat Romney quite handily even with Johnson eating into Trump's base in safe GOP states.

    MaxPB said:

    Just looking through some of the data, if Trump is going to end all amnesties and turn back illegal immigration I think that puts Nevada into play for the GOP and takes Texas and Georgia off the endangered list for them. For the former even after all of those reports of record early votes, record Hispanic turnout Trump closed the margin for the GOP. It also puts Colorado into play IMO.

    Also, Trump has pulled ahead of Romney in terms of the raw vote. This idea that he pulled in fewer voters than Romney should be consigned to the dustbin because it isn't true. If anything Trump should beat Romney quite handily even with Johnson eating into Trump's base in safe GOP states.

    But his share is less than Romney.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    justin124 said:

    The margin in Michigan is the equivalent to a candidate in a typical UK constituency having a lead of just 120 votes.Such a margin would almost certainly result in a full - rather than a bundle - recount.

    Shows how efficient is vote is.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,080

    Ewwww, this fecking minging

    And how often do you see staff in cafes use gloved hands to handle money?
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Dave Wasserman – Verified account ‏@Redistrict

    Clinton's lead in safe states just surpassed 2 million (+2.4%), but she's behind in swing states by 880k (-1.9%). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/edit#gid=19
    5:34 pm - 15 Nov 2016
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2016
    Whinge-o-rama x 100:

    twitter.com/doctor_oxford/status/798523007371276288

    (Probably reflects the views of most of my family, incidentally).
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    AndyJS said:

    Has anyone got the popular vote figures for the House?

    If not, who is likely win the popular vote there, the Dems or the GOP?

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oArjXSYeg40u4qQRR93qveN2N1UELQ6v04_mamrKg9g/edit#gid=0
    Interesting. The Dems seem to have won a number of R+1 and R+2 seats, indicating they did better in the House than an even contest, so more in line with the popular vote.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    justin124 said:

    The margin in Michigan is the equivalent to a candidate in a typical UK constituency having a lead of just 120 votes.Such a margin would almost certainly result in a full - rather than a bundle - recount.

    Neither particularly likely to be overturned, Michigan less so than a UK constituency.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Obama deported 2.5 million people, so Trump deporting 3 million is a big deal, why?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,973
    Shame to see how far the once gold standard has fallen.... titters :D
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    @ rcs1000

    I commented last night to one of your posts about computer vs humans that I have just started James Case's book, Competition: The Birth of a New Science, and that, in that, he addresses why machines are poorer at multi-player games, like Go, than two-player, zero-sum games.

    I have not got fully into his argumentation yet, but you seemed to be implying that computers do well at Go. Is his data out of date (the book is copyright 2007 so was probably written in 2006), or is he still right that the very best human players of Go still beat machines?

    Go is a two player game, it is "too complex" to 'solve'

    Computers were terrible at it previously.

    Deep Mind thrashed Lee Sedol, the world champ at it - Now. It doesn't 'solve' the game, but uses evolving algorithms as it plays itself.
    Thanks. So it uses genetic algorithms. Hmm...
    Tim, I read this yesterday:
    http://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2016/11/decades-after-deadly-lab-accident-a-secret-russian-bioweapon-decoded/

    Thought it was just up your street, though you're probably all to aware of it.
    Thanks for the link. I had missed that particular article, but know the subject matter well. I wrote the Nature review of the authoritative book on this, Leitenberg and Zilinskas "The Soviet Biological Weapons Program" and I am good friends of long standing of the husband and wife team who did the initial Western epidemiological investigation - Jeanne Guillemin and Matt Meselson:

    http://www.politicsandthelifesciences.org/Biosecurity_course_folder/readings/guillemin.pdf

    I think the article you cite somewhat overstates the achievements in stating that "However, the final product was infectious bacteria that could evade immune responses as well as multiple drugs." I think that was the aim, but getting all of the desired features into the bug at the same time was problematic, and preventing the bug from evolving out the new features was even more so. The article does go onto hint at this, but my review of Ray and Milton's book gives you more detail about the problems

    http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v489/n7416/full/489364a.html?message-global=remove
    Cheers. More reading!
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    We'll be in for some interesting times if this is the case

    https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/798880228923871233

    um... Pence forcing Trump out?
    Seems to be clutching at straws. If Trump doesn't want to quit he can overrule the declaration of him being incapacitated, as per the same amendment.
    Unless he is actually incapacitated. Which given he didn't release his medical records and we now all believe the crazyiest wacked out conspiracy shit means he only has 3 months left to live.
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    JasonJason Posts: 1,614
    After watching PMQs today, I have to say this as a Tory supporter, I was disappointed with May. She seems oddly uncomfortable at the dispatch box, at times overtly nervous (similar to Gordon Brown), and even somebody as ridiculous as Jeremy Corbyn has appeared vaguely competent in recent weeks. May and the Tories are lucky that Labour are not anywhere near a government in waiting, with a charismatic and popular leader, otherwise they could be in real trouble. Imagine a young Tony Blair at the dispatch box instead of Corbyn.

    Incredible, also, that not a single MP had the courage to congratulate Trump's presidency. They may find him deeply objectionable, however, there are greater things at stake than tribal instincts and personal feelings - like trade deals and economic growth.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,609
    nunu said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just looking through some of the data, if Trump is going to end all amnesties and turn back illegal immigration I think that puts Nevada into play for the GOP and takes Texas and Georgia off the endangered list for them. For the former even after all of those reports of record early votes, record Hispanic turnout Trump closed the margin for the GOP. It also puts Colorado into play IMO.

    Also, Trump has pulled ahead of Romney in terms of the raw vote. This idea that he pulled in fewer voters than Romney should be consigned to the dustbin because it isn't true. If anything Trump should beat Romney quite handily even with Johnson eating into Trump's base in safe GOP states.

    MaxPB said:

    Just looking through some of the data, if Trump is going to end all amnesties and turn back illegal immigration I think that puts Nevada into play for the GOP and takes Texas and Georgia off the endangered list for them. For the former even after all of those reports of record early votes, record Hispanic turnout Trump closed the margin for the GOP. It also puts Colorado into play IMO.

    Also, Trump has pulled ahead of Romney in terms of the raw vote. This idea that he pulled in fewer voters than Romney should be consigned to the dustbin because it isn't true. If anything Trump should beat Romney quite handily even with Johnson eating into Trump's base in safe GOP states.

    But his share is less than Romney.
    Due to traditional voters in safe Dem/GOP seats going for Johnson, IMO. Trump will win the popular vote quite easily in 2020 if he runs.
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    MaxPB said:

    Just looking through some of the data, if Trump is going to end all amnesties and turn back illegal immigration I think that puts Nevada into play for the GOP and takes Texas and Georgia off the endangered list for them. For the former even after all of those reports of record early votes, record Hispanic turnout Trump closed the margin for the GOP. It also puts Colorado into play IMO.

    Also, Trump has pulled ahead of Romney in terms of the raw vote. This idea that he pulled in fewer voters than Romney should be consigned to the dustbin because it isn't true. If anything Trump should beat Romney quite handily even with Johnson eating into Trump's base in safe GOP states.

    Eh. I don't know.

    Me bringing it up officially makes it a cliche but demos in those states are still going to favor the Dems. There are going to be more Hispanic voters four years from now.
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    justin124 said:

    The margin in Michigan is the equivalent to a candidate in a typical UK constituency having a lead of just 120 votes.Such a margin would almost certainly result in a full - rather than a bundle - recount.

    You can't scale up directly as the probability of overturning a result for a given percentage lead diminishes with the size of the vote, unless there are specific structural issues as to why the count might bias one way or another.

    With a turnout of 100 in a town council election, a 1% lead is a single vote. On a turnout of 10k, it amounts to 100 votes. On a turnout of 1m, it amounts to 10k votes.

    Finding a single miscounted vote might not be too difficult, even in a relatively small sample. Finding a hundred, all miscounted the same way, even on a sample a hundred times the size is a much bigger ask. If the miscounting is random then you'd expect errors to largely cancel out. However, there is the risk that in UK elections a bundle has been misallocated and so 100 votes shifts all at once. The chances of 10,000 votes *all* being miscounted the same way (or a net gain of 10k being made through errors), even on a huge sample is trivially small. Those with more recent advanced maths can crunch the numbers; I imagine there's a normal distribution that could be used to calculate the likelihood for given sample sizes.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907

    Sandpit said:

    Me neither, but I'm familiar with the work of the AAIB - they are the best in the world in their field.

    As a starting point, a tram-activated or GPS-based siren sounding before the corner would make sure a sleepy or distracted driver hit the brake on time. More signage before the corner would also help.

    More signage: definitely. As for this crash, we cannot assume it was the driver's fault. There might have been other factors causing, or contributing, to it.

    AIUI heavy rail's had considerable problems with the reliability of GPS-based systems, though there is promise:
    http://www.railway-technology.com/features/feature121215/

    Most railways prefer to use trackside balises to communicate with the train. Basically: if you pass this point and you're going above x MPH, apply full emergency brake.

    Also AIUI, these trams are fitted with electrmagnetic eddy current brakes that are *very* effective in stopping quickly, sometimes to the detriment of passengers within.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balise
    Useful background and links, thanks.

    Interested in more about eddy current brakes, these are what rollercoasters use for 2g or 3g stops, which would be damn uncomfortable in a tram but way better than a crash. If the Croydon trams have them, why are they not used as emergency brakes before these tight corners?
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited November 2016
    nunu said:

    Obama deported 2.5 million people, so Trump deporting 3 million is a big deal, why?

    Interesting stat – presumably those that were silent at Obama’s deportations, will now be the noisiest grumblers at Trump, for doing the same?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,609
    nunu said:

    Obama deported 2.5 million people, so Trump deporting 3 million is a big deal, why?

    The rhetoric will mean more than 3m will leave either by deportation or fear of deportation. There are 11m illegal immigrants in the US, over half could end up leaving within the next 4 years. It will change the nature of politics in border states if it does happen.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,973
    Alistair said:

    We'll be in for some interesting times if this is the case

    https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/798880228923871233

    um... Pence forcing Trump out?
    Seems to be clutching at straws. If Trump doesn't want to quit he can overrule the declaration of him being incapacitated, as per the same amendment.
    Unless he is actually incapacitated. Which given he didn't release his medical records and we now all believe the crazyiest wacked out conspiracy shit means he only has 3 months left to live.
    If we are all believing the craziest whacked out conspiracies, doesn't that mean we believe the records he did release during the campaign? If so, we have nothing to worry about.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Jason said:

    After watching PMQs today, I have to say this as a Tory supporter, I was disappointed with May. She seems oddly uncomfortable at the dispatch box, at times overtly nervous (similar to Gordon Brown), and even somebody as ridiculous as Jeremy Corbyn has appeared vaguely competent in recent weeks.

    https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/798877144227184640
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    nunu said:

    Obama deported 2.5 million people, so Trump deporting 3 million is a big deal, why?

    How screwed up is politics in the US, where the concept of deporting illegals is even seen as an issue?

    If one overstays their welcome or misbehaves in any country they can be expected to be put on a plane back home, no?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    nunu said:

    Obama deported 2.5 million people, so Trump deporting 3 million is a big deal, why?

    Interesting stat – presumably those that were silent at Obama’s deportations, will now be the noisiest grumblers at Trump, for doing the same?
    Bit like Obama's fence/wall.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,080
    MaxPB said:

    Due to traditional voters in safe Dem/GOP seats going for Johnson, IMO. Trump will win the popular vote quite easily in 2020 if he runs.

    Especially if the mainstream in 2018 has come around to his way of thinking on issues like infrastructure, immigration and Russia many of the Democratic candidates might think they're better off sitting it out than facing the full barrage of an election campaign against Trump.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Michigan: automatic recount is only if the margin is less than 2,000 votes. But a candidate can request one if it's larger.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,907
    Scott_P said:

    Jason said:

    After watching PMQs today, I have to say this as a Tory supporter, I was disappointed with May. She seems oddly uncomfortable at the dispatch box, at times overtly nervous (similar to Gordon Brown), and even somebody as ridiculous as Jeremy Corbyn has appeared vaguely competent in recent weeks.

    https://twitter.com/iainmartin1/status/798877144227184640
    How is it good for Mr Corbyn, when he spent his questions to get the answers he was expecting anyway, and for which the PM has popular support - before leaving the PM with an open goal at the end? Will he be asking the same question six times next week too, knowing he'll be getting the same answer six times?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,609

    MaxPB said:

    Just looking through some of the data, if Trump is going to end all amnesties and turn back illegal immigration I think that puts Nevada into play for the GOP and takes Texas and Georgia off the endangered list for them. For the former even after all of those reports of record early votes, record Hispanic turnout Trump closed the margin for the GOP. It also puts Colorado into play IMO.

    Also, Trump has pulled ahead of Romney in terms of the raw vote. This idea that he pulled in fewer voters than Romney should be consigned to the dustbin because it isn't true. If anything Trump should beat Romney quite handily even with Johnson eating into Trump's base in safe GOP states.

    Eh. I don't know.

    Me bringing it up officially makes it a cliche but demos in those states are still going to favor the Dems. There are going to be more Hispanic voters four years from now.
    I'm not sure that there will be, the increasing demographics advantage relied on Clinton's 11m illegal immigrant amnesty in the border states. Without the amnesty, the process will be a lot slower. I remember a few liberal commentators saying that Texas would be ultra marginal because of it, how will the Dems make the gains without that massive increase in Hispanic voters.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,045
    edited November 2016
    Sandpit said:


    Useful background and links, thanks.

    Interested in more about eddy current brakes, these are what rollercoasters use for 2g or 3g stops, which would be damn uncomfortable in a tram but way better than a crash. If the Croydon trams have them, why are they not used as emergency brakes before these tight corners?

    I've just done some 'research# (i.e. Googled) and I was wrong: they're magnetic brakes, but not eddy brakes:

    The third braking system is the magnetic 'track brakes' system for emergencies, basically a 'shoe', each side of each bogie, each apply 6.66 tons of pressure onto the track and stops the tram very fast indeed, the shoes are assisted by applying sand onto the track to aid grip. This is sometimes known as the 'Hazard Brake' and all uses have to be reported to Controllers and logged.

    https://croydon-tramlink.co.uk/info/trams/index.shtml

    As for why they're not automatically used: this is the first fatal crash on a UK tram system for many decades (as opposed to collisions with trams) - albeit there were virtually no trams for much of that time. They were probably thought 'safe' without them.
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    justin124 said:

    IanB2 said:

    PClipp said:

    justin124 said:

    I would pitch the LibDems lower than that at 9/10% simply because they now have so much competition as the NOTA option.Many who in the past would have supported them on that basis will now opt for the Greens or UKIP.

    I think you are running about two years behind the times, Mr Justin.
    +1

    Why be Green when you can love Corbyn, and why be UKIP when it's 'job done' and both Banks and Farage are about to take their energies and £ elsewhere?
    The point is that in the past many people voted LibDem - or Liberal - despite not supporting their policy agendas at all. Many were anti - EU and quite a few had racist views more likely to be associated with the BNP.They voted LibDem simply out of a wish to reject both Tories and Labour.Today they continue to be beneficiaries of such votes - but have much more competition.
    An interesting point, Mr Justin. I suppose that, in the same spirit, you would argue that very many people voted Conservative at the last election because they wanted the Coalition Government to continue. And many more did so because they liked that charming Mr Cameron and the utterly astounding Mr Osborne. (The fall in the Tory majority at Witney from 25.000 to only 5000 might support this point.)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930

    MaxPB said:

    Due to traditional voters in safe Dem/GOP seats going for Johnson, IMO. Trump will win the popular vote quite easily in 2020 if he runs.

    Especially if the mainstream in 2018 has come around to his way of thinking on issues like infrastructure, immigration and Russia many of the Democratic candidates might think they're better off sitting it out than facing the full barrage of an election campaign against Trump.
    There's bound to be one republican primary opponent who he will crush utterly too.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,609
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Due to traditional voters in safe Dem/GOP seats going for Johnson, IMO. Trump will win the popular vote quite easily in 2020 if he runs.

    Especially if the mainstream in 2018 has come around to his way of thinking on issues like infrastructure, immigration and Russia many of the Democratic candidates might think they're better off sitting it out than facing the full barrage of an election campaign against Trump.
    There's bound to be one republican primary opponent who he will crush utterly too.
    It really depends, if he does a decent job the GOP might let him run unopposed.
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    Sandpit said:

    nunu said:

    Obama deported 2.5 million people, so Trump deporting 3 million is a big deal, why?

    How screwed up is politics in the US, where the concept of deporting illegals is even seen as an issue?

    If one overstays their welcome or misbehaves in any country they can be expected to be put on a plane back home, no?

    Isn't it clouded a bit in the US by the fact that anyone born on US soil is automatically a US citizen? It means there are a lot of kids who are legal and a lot of parents who are illegal. If you deport the parents you deprive US citizens of a natural right and increase your own cost-base.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,930
    AndyJS said:

    Michigan: automatic recount is only if the margin is less than 2,000 votes. But a candidate can request one if it's larger.

    I can't find a definite original source for the 11k margin, alot of CNN's numbers are out the other way - Arizona not updated for ages.

    It seems once they know who the president they don't particularly give a monkeys anymore.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sandpit said:

    How is it good for Mr Corbyn, when he spent his questions to get the answers he was expecting anyway, and for which the PM has popular support

    He looked comfortable asking them, and Tezza looked very uncomfortable not answering them.

    And she doesn't have public support for her handling of Brexit.
This discussion has been closed.