Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The legacy from the coalition that ties Theresa May’s hands on

124

Comments

  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    People should remember states don't stay blue or red forever

    In the 2032 election I'd guess Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota to be definitely republican, with Arizona, Texas Democrat.

    Demographics change over time but political change happens also within specific demographics.

    There's been a strong swing to the GOP among Irish / Italian / Polish Catholics for example.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited November 2016

    The truth about why an Italian - or indeed Russian - airline might register planes overseas seems to be rather more complicated, an interesting fairly short read:

    http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/414016-italian-aircraft-irish-registered.html

    Not really. The final bit is the key one: nobody trusts the Italian judiciary or bureaucracy to be objective. Local favours are more important.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Are PB Leavers incapable of reading stuff that might violate their safe space?

    The evidence so far suggests that is indeed the case...
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    RobD said:

    Did the judges vote on it? If not, I doubt one recusal would have changed the result.

    We're not America, we don't do minority opinions. They ruled as a panel of three.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    edited November 2016

    Are PB Leavers incapable of reading stuff that might violate their safe space?

    Felicity Hannah didn't write the article.

    She tweeted an article written by 'SecretBarrister' who blogs here

    https://thesecretbarrister.com/

    Honestly, if you read her twitter profile, how about reading the piece itself.

    No one wants you and your facts in here, TSE :p
  • Options
    Trump is going to Minnesota tomorrow.He couldn't be close there or could he?
  • Options

    Mr. Cocque, I'm not so sure. When I met Mr. Eagles, his dress sense clearly indicated a man unfamiliar with the human concept of fashion, and quite possibly possessing eyes incapable of registering the light frequency range homo sapiens can see.

    I always thought TSE was very proud of his dress sense, especially in the footwear department.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,788
    edited November 2016

    Apols if posted before......but 'Jeremy Corbyn running away from a reporter asking if he'd welcome a General Election'

    http://www.itv.com/news/2016-11-05/corbyn-demands-may-give-mps-more-transparency-on-brexit-plans/

    He can't stand his ground on anything can he ... how utterly pathetic!
    If the Leader of the Opposition can't answer a question about
    CALLING A GENERAL ELECTION frankly, wtf are they for?
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920

    Are PB Leavers incapable of reading stuff that might violate their safe space?

    Felicity Hannah didn't write the article.

    She tweeted an article written by 'SecretBarrister' who blogs here

    https://thesecretbarrister.com/

    Honestly, if you read her twitter profile, how about reading the piece itself.

    Trouble is "Scott and Paste" posts so many "Tweets" that most people just vaguely look at the tweet and then carry on scrolling through the rest of the day's posts.

    Only reason I asked about Ms/Mrs Hannah is because that particular copy/paste tweet seemed to be generating such comment...
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
  • Options

    Pulpstar said:

    People should remember states don't stay blue or red forever

    In the 2032 election I'd guess Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota to be definitely republican, with Arizona, Texas Democrat.

    Demographics change over time but political change happens also within specific demographics.

    There's been a strong swing to the GOP among Irish / Italian / Polish Catholics for example.
    I thought Trump had been excommunicated?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,472
    edited November 2016

    Anyway, IANAL, but some of you guys are. What's your feeling on whether the government's appeal will be successful?

    It is hard to see how it can succeed, unless they have the photos and recordings of the Supreme Court judges neatly filed away.

    The mystery is why May is apparently so confident of her prospects. Possible answers:

    A) it is all part of her cunning plan manoeuvring towards a 2017 general election
    B )the government has as yet no clue what it is doing and needs to play for more time
    C) the law is a fruit machine; pull the handle again and there's always some chance of getting three lemons
    D) the Supreme Court is somehow in her pocket as above
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Are PB Leavers incapable of reading stuff that might violate their safe space?

    GIN1138 said:

    most people just vaguely look at the tweet and then carry on scrolling through the rest of the day's posts.

    So that's a YES then...
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    What a bucket of hysterical sputum.

    SCORCHED TO THE GROUND

    OUR CONSTITUTION HAS BEEN NUKED

    THE QUEEN IS LITERALLY IN FLAMES AND NELSON'S COLUMN HAS BEEN TURNED INTO A RADIOACTIVE DILDO INSERTED INTO THE BURNING ANUS OF PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY

    Jesus. What's happened to you? What's happened to Remainers? They need anti-psychotics
    It is you Leavers who need the anti-psychotics . Having maintained that it wasn't your closet xenophobia that was driving your desire to Leave but upholding the sovereignity of Parliament you now attack judges who are doing just that . What a bunch of toerag hypocrites you are .
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,982

    Anyway, IANAL, but some of you guys are. What's your feeling on whether the government's appeal will be successful?

    Probably not, but one never knows. The first instance judgement is well-reasoned, but some well-reasoned judgements get overturned.

    But, certainly the Supreme Court needs to rule on a case of such importance, and has to spell out what Parliament must do to trigger A 50, in the event that the High Court judgement is upheld.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    IanB2 said:

    Anyway, IANAL, but some of you guys are. What's your feeling on whether the government's appeal will be successful?

    It is hard to see how it can succeed, unless they have the photos and recordings of the Supreme Court judges neatly filed away.

    The mystery is why May is apparently so confident of her prospects. Possible answers:

    A) it is all part of her cunning plan manourvering towards a 2017 general election
    B )the government has as yet no clue what it is doing and needs to play for more time
    C) the law is a fruit machine; pull the handle again and there's always some chance of three lemons
    D) the Supreme Court is somehow in her pocket as above

    DavidL's point from earlier was very good.

  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    What a bucket of hysterical sputum.

    SCORCHED TO THE GROUND

    OUR CONSTITUTION HAS BEEN NUKED

    THE QUEEN IS LITERALLY IN FLAMES AND NELSON'S COLUMN HAS BEEN TURNED INTO A RADIOACTIVE DILDO INSERTED INTO THE BURNING ANUS OF PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY

    Jesus. What's happened to you? What's happened to Remainers? They need anti-psychotics
    Their dream of a USE is dying. They can't handle it. Which is why some of the more pragmatic remainers seem to have adjusted a lot better.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,990
    IanB2 said:

    Anyway, IANAL, but some of you guys are. What's your feeling on whether the government's appeal will be successful?

    It is hard to see how it can succeed, unless they have the photos and recordings of the Supreme Court judges neatly filed away.

    The mystery is why May is apparently so confident of her prospects. Possible answers:

    A) it is all part of her cunning plan manourvering towards a 2017 general election
    B )the government has as yet no clue what it is doing and needs to play for more time
    C) the law is a fruit machine; pull the handle again and there's always some chance of three lemons
    D) the Supreme Court is somehow in her pocket as above
    Why would the government not want to appear confident? You don't go in saying "oh I'm going to lose, but what the hell"
  • Options

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
  • Options

    Felicity Hannah didn't write the article.

    So she's not a High Priestess of Remainers in Denial?

    Why else would ScottP have cited her as an authority worth paying heed to?
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    Scott_P said:

    Are PB Leavers incapable of reading stuff that might violate their safe space?

    GIN1138 said:

    most people just vaguely look at the tweet and then carry on scrolling through the rest of the day's posts.

    So that's a YES then...
    Yeah but only because if we actually investigated all 5000 daily Tweets you post we'd never have time to actually comment on here.

    And to be fair Ms. Plato can be as bad for copy/pasting Tweets that seem pretty pointless 90% of the time...
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,472
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyway, IANAL, but some of you guys are. What's your feeling on whether the government's appeal will be successful?

    It is hard to see how it can succeed, unless they have the photos and recordings of the Supreme Court judges neatly filed away.

    The mystery is why May is apparently so confident of her prospects. Possible answers:

    A) it is all part of her cunning plan manourvering towards a 2017 general election
    B )the government has as yet no clue what it is doing and needs to play for more time
    C) the law is a fruit machine; pull the handle again and there's always some chance of three lemons
    D) the Supreme Court is somehow in her pocket as above
    Why would the government not want to appear confident? You don't go in saying "oh I'm going to lose, but what the hell"
    The question is why she doesn't simply accept the inevitable and take the issue to parliament now? Losing twice buys her nothing but a bit of time, at some cost to credibility.
  • Options

    Are PB Leavers incapable of reading stuff that might violate their safe space?

    Felicity Hannah didn't write the article.

    She tweeted an article written by 'SecretBarrister' who blogs here

    https://thesecretbarrister.com/

    Honestly, if you read her twitter profile, how about reading the piece itself.

    Perhaps you should have a word with Scott about his pasting of endless tweets rather than source documents.

    Although it would be mildly interesting to know how many people Scott follows on twitter.

    Unless that is he is being passed the tweets by someone higher up the chain.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Why else would ScottP have cited her as an authority worth paying heed to?

    I didn't. I posted a link to a New Statesman article that just happened to be in a Tweet
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Trump is going to Minnesota tomorrow.He couldn't be close there or could he?

    Average Clinton lead of last 8 polls 7 points so not close no .
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    Why else would ScottP have cited her as an authority worth paying heed to?

    I didn't. I posted a link to a New Statesman article that just happened to be in a Tweet
    Out of interest Scott how many people do you follow on twitter ?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Although it would be mildly interesting to know how many people Scott follows on twitter.

    647 today
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,982

    RobD said:

    Did the judges vote on it? If not, I doubt one recusal would have changed the result.

    We're not America, we don't do minority opinions. They ruled as a panel of three.
    It's not unusual for judges sitting as part of a panel to issue dissenting judgements.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Trump is going to Minnesota tomorrow.He couldn't be close there or could he?

    Average Clinton lead of last 8 polls 7 points so not close no .
    Very few polls though.
  • Options

    Trump is going to Minnesota tomorrow.He couldn't be close there or could he?

    Average Clinton lead of last 8 polls 7 points so not close no .
    I doubt Trump is following any kind of electoral advice or logic. He hasn't so far.
  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    edited November 2016

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    As this is a particularly rancorous thread, let's end it Godwin style:

    Over to Joe:

    "Now, people, rise up, and let the storm break loose"

    (Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!)
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,982
    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Anyway, IANAL, but some of you guys are. What's your feeling on whether the government's appeal will be successful?

    It is hard to see how it can succeed, unless they have the photos and recordings of the Supreme Court judges neatly filed away.

    The mystery is why May is apparently so confident of her prospects. Possible answers:

    A) it is all part of her cunning plan manourvering towards a 2017 general election
    B )the government has as yet no clue what it is doing and needs to play for more time
    C) the law is a fruit machine; pull the handle again and there's always some chance of three lemons
    D) the Supreme Court is somehow in her pocket as above
    Why would the government not want to appear confident? You don't go in saying "oh I'm going to lose, but what the hell"
    The question is why she doesn't simply accept the inevitable and take the issue to parliament now? Losing twice buys her nothing but a bit of time, at some cost to credibility.
    It would be unsatisfactory for the constitutional issues raised by this case not be ruled on definitively. A High Court judgement would not establish a binding precedent if a similar case about prerogative powers were brought in the future.
  • Options
    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    As this is a particular rancourous thread, let's end it Godwin style:

    Over to Joe:

    "Now, people, rise up, and let the storm break loose"

    (Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!)
    You'll set Justin off again.
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    Why else would ScottP have cited her as an authority worth paying heed to?

    I didn't. I posted a link to a New Statesman article that just happened to be in a Tweet
    I thought you might have been adorning what was otherwise hysterical drivel via endorsement from someone whose opinion might carry weight.....
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,472
    SeanT said:

    IanB2 said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    There is a big difference between criticising judges and accusing them of bias. Friday morning's front pages were unprecedented and based on the flimsiest of evidence.
    I've given you evidence, which you have studiously ignored. Baron Thomas, who ruled on A50:

    "is one of the Founding Members of the European Law Institute, a non-profit organisation that conducts research, makes recommendations and provides practical guidance in the field of European legal development with a goal of enhancing the European legal integration."

    He should have recused himself. Clear conflict of interest.

    I am less concerned by the openly gay fencer.
    Except that all of us can read their judgement in full, and there is no bias that is apparent. Cromwell won the civil war and they are simply respecting the result.
    Carl Gardner, a senior legal Remainer, thinks the judgement was rubbish, or, as he puts it, surprising, problematic, and wrongly decided.

    It's been quoted here at length so I'll just provide a link

    https://www.headoflegal.com/2016/11/04/why-the-high-court-got-the-law-wrong-about-brexit/?utm_content=buffer02f98&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
    He's doing his best to chip away around the edges, from as many directions as he can dream up, but I don't see any killer argument in his piece. His use of phrases like "it seems to me at least arguable that..." are lawyer-speak for "this is a long shot, but you never know..."
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    AndyJS said:

    Trump is going to Minnesota tomorrow.He couldn't be close there or could he?

    Average Clinton lead of last 8 polls 7 points so not close no .
    Very few polls though.
    8 may be a few but is a bit better than HYUFD cherry picking and quoting 1 odd poll out of 10 recent ones .
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,141
    SeanT said:

    IanB2 said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    There is a big difference between criticising judges and accusing them of bias. Friday morning's front pages were unprecedented and based on the flimsiest of evidence.
    I've given you evidence, which you have studiously ignored. Baron Thomas, who ruled on A50:

    "is one of the Founding Members of the European Law Institute, a non-profit organisation that conducts research, makes recommendations and provides practical guidance in the field of European legal development with a goal of enhancing the European legal integration."

    He should have recused himself. Clear conflict of interest.

    I am less concerned by the openly gay fencer.
    Except that all of us can read their judgement in full, and there is no bias that is apparent. Cromwell won the civil war and they are simply respecting the result.
    Carl Gardner, a senior legal Remainer, thinks the judgement was rubbish, or, as he puts it, surprising, problematic, and wrongly decided.

    It's been quoted here at length so I'll just provide a link

    https://www.headoflegal.com/2016/11/04/why-the-high-court-got-the-law-wrong-about-brexit/?utm_content=buffer02f98&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
    Well, that article is the basis of the discussion we've been having here. It's the stuff about ministers acting unlawfully by signing treaties. The answer is that the treaties had no effect until they were ratified, and they weren't ratified until the required legislation had been passed by Parliament. A couple of the commenters on Gardner's blog do point this out.

    If that's apparent to a layman after a few minutes' Googling, I wonder how senior Carl Gardner is, and whether he may be straying outside his area of expertise.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    There is a big difference between criticising judges and accusing them of bias. Friday morning's front pages were unprecedented and based on the flimsiest of evidence.
    I've given you evidence, which you have studiously ignored. Baron Thomas, who ruled on A50:

    "is one of the Founding Members of the European Law Institute, a non-profit organisation that conducts research, makes recommendations and provides practical guidance in the field of European legal development with a goal of enhancing the European legal integration."

    He should have recused himself. Clear conflict of interest.

    I am less concerned by the openly gay fencer.
    Twaddle. This is the kind of nonsense that's dogged that inquiry into 'historic child sex abuse' - a succession of chairmen having to resign because of supposed links to 'The Establishment'. If you poke around in anyone's background you can find something that will persuade you that they're compromised or corrupt, if you're that mentally inclined. My belief is that you only get appointed to these positions in the first place because you've proven yourself to be scrupulously objective. But then I'm patriotic and have faith in my country.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    IanB2 said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    There is a big difference between criticising judges and accusing them of bias. Friday morning's front pages were unprecedented and based on the flimsiest of evidence.
    I've given you evidence, which you have studiously ignored. Baron Thomas, who ruled on A50:

    "is one of the Founding Members of the European Law Institute, a non-profit organisation that conducts research, makes recommendations and provides practical guidance in the field of European legal development with a goal of enhancing the European legal integration."

    He should have recused himself. Clear conflict of interest.

    I am less concerned by the openly gay fencer.
    Except that all of us can read their judgement in full, and there is no bias that is apparent. Cromwell won the civil war and they are simply respecting the result.
    Carl Gardner, a senior legal Remainer, thinks the judgement was rubbish, or, as he puts it, surprising, problematic, and wrongly decided.
    Prof Tomkins:

    Herein lies the fatal flaw in the third step of the High Court’s reasoning: how can the 1972 Parliament coherently be said to have intended an outcome that was not established in our constitutional law until nearly thirty years later? A ruling that relies on the proposition that the European Communities Act must be interpreted as if its authors intended their work to prevent ministers from exercising their prerogative powers over the making and unmaking of treaties is one that is inevitably anachronistic. It is therefore an irrational conclusion and, for that reason, there must surely be at least the prospect that the UK Supreme Court will in time overturn this week’s High Court ruling.
  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    As this is a particular rancourous thread, let's end it Godwin style:

    Over to Joe:

    "Now, people, rise up, and let the storm break loose"

    (Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!)
    You'll set Justin off again.
    I believe he's just set fire to Norwich Town Hall - he can't afford the Reichstag.
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited November 2016

    Trump is going to Minnesota tomorrow.He couldn't be close there or could he?

    If he can squeeze Johnson back down closer to usual election levels then based on 538 he has a chance of making these midwest states competitive. That would appear to be the strategy; pretty much all the places he's going to are where there is a Johnson vote to squeeze that theoretically could get him over the line.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    There is a big difference between criticising judges and accusing them of bias. Friday morning's front pages were unprecedented and based on the flimsiest of evidence.
    I've g

    I am less concerned by the openly gay fencer.
    What on earth do you see as the conflict of interest? It's an organisation for making European law technically better. Or is it now Leavers' settled view that European law is to be as half-assed as possible?
    Dimwit

    Baron Thomas founded the ELI, Here's just part of its remit:

    Among ELI’s core tasks are:

    "to evaluate and stimulate the development of EU law, legal policy, and practice, and in particular make proposals for the further development of the acquis and for the enhancement
    of EU law implementation by the Member States;

    "to identify and analyse legal developments in areas within the competence of Member States which are relevant at the EU level;

    "to study EU approaches regarding international law and enhance the role EU law could play globally, for instance in drafting international instruments or model rules;

    "to conduct and facilitate pan-European research, in particular to draft, evaluate or improve principles and rules which are common to the European legal systems"

    ***

    It's all about EU law slowly subsuming and incorporating UK law (and that of other member states) as the EU becomes a superstate (indeed the ELI is explicitly modelled on the American Law Institute). It is a powerful body dedicated to furthering ever-deeper EU integration.

    And Baron Thomas is a founder member. This is his life's passion. If Brexit happens the UK will leave the ELI, and its hub in London (one of three) will be booted out of the country, as EU law and UK law are separated, thus undoing all of the good Baron's life's work.

    And yet - and yet - we are supposed to believe he can set all this aside when adjudicating on a case which could potentially thwart Brexit, and save the gist of his career from total pointlessness.

    As grabcocque has helpfully admitted, lawyers are humans. They have feelings. They're not always balanced. Baron Thomas was incapable of being neutral on this case. He should have recused himself.

    No lawyer with any links whatsoever to the EU should sit on any future hearings to do with Brexit. TMay should put that in her manifesto. Zero tolerance.
    You have gone full on crackpot with that post. I'll put it down to a very early gin o'clock and wish you a good evening.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    As this is a particular rancourous thread, let's end it Godwin style:

    Over to Joe:

    "Now, people, rise up, and let the storm break loose"

    (Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!)
    You'll set Justin off again.
    I believe he's just set fire to Norwich Town Hall - he can't afford the Reichstag.
    * PEDANTRY ALERT * That would be Norwich City Hall, would it not?
  • Options
    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    As this is a particular rancourous thread, let's end it Godwin style:

    Over to Joe:

    "Now, people, rise up, and let the storm break loose"

    (Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!)
    You'll set Justin off again.
    I believe he's just set fire to Norwich Town Hall - he can't afford the Reichstag.
    * PEDANTRY ALERT * That would be Norwich City Hall, would it not?
    It's all the same to Stormkommando Justin when he's all brown-shirty.
  • Options
    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900


    I doubt Trump is following any kind of electoral advice or logic. He hasn't so far.

    There's a logic of sorts: if he's lost Nevada, then he probably needs to win one of MN/WI/MI (on top of FL/NC/AZ/IA/etc etc). Even if it's bit of a long shot, doesn't take much of a polling error to bring it back into play, and his chances there are very strongly correlated with those in WI so it's probably closer than the few polls suggest.

  • Options

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    We're in a badly overwrought situation.

    Lets consider some of the aspects of how we got here:

    1) Government leaflets telling voters that they would make the decision

    2) A Prime Minister who told the voters that he would be immediately trigger A50 and then didn't

    3) A Court decision overruling what the government leaflets had told the voters about them making the decision

    4) The EU - an organisation with a decades long history of overturning referendum results

    5) A widespread feeling that the law is NOT equal and that "there's one rule for them and another for the rest of us"

    Its a mess isn't it.

    But who's fault is it ?

    Not the ordinary person's, not even the media's but the people who are in charge of the country - politicians, judges, bankers etc
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    As this is a particular rancourous thread, let's end it Godwin style:

    Over to Joe:

    "Now, people, rise up, and let the storm break loose"

    (Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!)
    You'll set Justin off again.
    I believe he's just set fire to Norwich Town Hall - he can't afford the Reichstag.
    That might just possibly be defammatory!
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    The same year that the European President, Donald Tusk, said that a vote for Brexit would mean "the end of western political civilisation".

    Based on the Daily Mail's reaction, he was right. :smiley:
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    justin124 said:

    That might just possibly be defammatory!

    Or deflammatory...
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    Although it would be mildly interesting to know how many people Scott follows on twitter.

    647 today
    I'm impressed.

    How many individual tweets have you read ?

    You PB work-rate must rival tim's.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397

    Mr. Cocque, I agree. Law Lords sounds miles better.

    Time Lords better still.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    There is a big difference between criticising judges and accusing them of bias. Friday morning's front pages were unprecedented and based on the flimsiest of evidence.
    I've given you evidence, which you have studiously ignored. Baron Thomas, who ruled on A50:

    "is one of the Founding Members of the European Law Institute, a non-profit organisation that conducts research, makes recommendations and provides practical guidance in the field of European legal development with a goal of enhancing the European legal integration."

    He should have recused himself. Clear conflict of interest.

    I am less concerned by the openly gay fencer.
    Twaddle. This is the kind of nonsense that's dogged that inquiry into 'historic child sex abuse' - a succession of chairmen having to resign because of supposed links to 'The Establishment'. If you poke around in anyone's background you can find something that will persuade you that they're compromised or corrupt, if you're that mentally inclined. My belief is that you only get appointed to these positions in the first place because you've proven yourself to be scrupulously objective. But then I'm patriotic and have faith in my country.
    Read my later tweet on Baron Thomas. He's not just linked to the EU, it is his founding passion.
    So you're saying that if Baron Thomas hadn't been involved they'd have made the completely opposite judgement? I find that rather difficult to believe.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,554
    edited November 2016

    Not the ordinary person's, not even the media's but the people who are in charge of the country - politicians, judges, bankers etc

    Exactly, all we did is believe what were told and vote, it's not our fault that the country is run by weasels.

  • Options
    DavidL said:


    Darn it.

    I'm (reluctantly) coming to the conclusion that the judges were correct.

    * The referendum was unquestionably advisory, so cannot be automatically implemented.

    * Invoking A50 will irrevocably remove legal rights.

    * The government by itself cannot take away rights, so parliament must be involved at the start.

    Hard to argue against those technical points.

    The problem is that the whole think stinks of trickery to avoid a (real) Brexit, and leads to further distrust in the establishment.

    I had an interesting debate yesterday with an SNP QC who was of the view that this argument about taking away rights was a novelty with no basis in our precedents or law. And he was a strong remainer. The government needs new and sharper arguments. I very much hope that Richard Keen, the Advocate General, is brought in for the appeal. He knows how to shape the arguments into a way that can win.
    Was your SNP QC arguing something similar to Prof John Finnis?
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784

    Trump is going to Minnesota tomorrow.He couldn't be close there or could he?

    If he can squeeze Johnson back down closer to usual election levels then based on 538 he has a chance of making these midwest states competitive. That would appear to be the strategy; pretty much all the places he's going to are where there is a Johnson vote to squeeze that theoretically could get him over the line.
    maybe, though those voters are younger/hate trump, so could easily break for clinton as well
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    I'd be interested in the view of a constitutional lawyer as to whether the mere repeal of the Fixed Term Parliament Act would restore the Royal Prerogative in the area. The conventional view is that the Royal Prerogative is a residue. If it has already been displaced in a particular respect, does it re-emerge if the displacement is removed? The answer isn't immediately clear to me but it's not my specialism.

    Good valid points, and very intelligent. But if you were really cynical you might wonder whether getting into a big debate about this - something that would fascinate the journalists who cover politics while leaving most people bemused or disinterested - would be a perfect distraction from Brexit.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    edited November 2016
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    The same year that the European President, Donald Tusk, said that a vote for Brexit would mean "the end of western political civilisation".
    If Trump gets elected, are we gonna have to slug it out with him to get the credit?
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    https://twitter.com/RobertMackey/status/794950296325726209

    Could they not be telling trump what their internal polls say
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    edited November 2016
    SeanT said:



    Which is why I am coming to the conclusion we really need an election. As a rightwinger, I don't want one, as it might help Labour get rid of Corbyn.

    Even if Labour does get rid if Jezza they'll probably replace him John McDonnell. Or Owen Jones... Or Shami...

    And anyway if the Tories can get a majority of 100 The Blessed Tony himself could make a comeback and it would still take two elections to unravel the landslide.
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    Poll has Clinton with a 1 point lead in Iowa. That may not go Trumps way, hes losing his lead there

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/304494-poll-trump-clinton-in-dead-heat-in-iowa#
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    There is a big difference between criticising judges and accusing them of bias. Friday morning's front pages were unprecedented and based on the flimsiest of evidence.
    They were indeed ridiculous. But the DM must be chuffed to bits that people are still discussing today's chip wrappings (if the nasty, evil EU had not stopped us wrapping our chips in newsprint).
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,051

    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    As this is a particular rancourous thread, let's end it Godwin style:

    Over to Joe:

    "Now, people, rise up, and let the storm break loose"

    (Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!)
    You'll set Justin off again.
    I believe he's just set fire to Norwich Town Hall - he can't afford the Reichstag.
    * PEDANTRY ALERT * That would be Norwich City Hall, would it not?

    Didn't Hitler want to make Norwich City Hall his HQ for governing Britain?
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    We're in a badly overwrought situation.

    Lets consider some of the aspects of how we got here:

    1) Government leaflets telling voters that they would make the decision

    2) A Prime Minister who told the voters that he would be immediately trigger A50 and then didn't

    3) A Court decision overruling what the government leaflets had told the voters about them making the decision

    4) The EU - an organisation with a decades long history of overturning referendum results

    5) A widespread feeling that the law is NOT equal and that "there's one rule for them and another for the rest of us"

    Its a mess isn't it.

    But who's fault is it ?

    Not the ordinary person's, not even the media's but the people who are in charge of the country - politicians, judges, bankers etc

    You might also add to your list the numerous Continuity Remain politicians and media personalities, who deftly combine outrage about the danger to democracy posed by the demonization of judges with loud and continuous demands for Parliament to ignore the referendum result and cancel Brexit.

    It's no wonder that so many people are willing to swallow a narrative of betrayal, when many in positions of power want to betray them and are proud to say so.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,070

    You have gone full on crackpot with that post. I'll put it down to a very early gin o'clock and wish you a good evening.

    hey it's past 6pm cet, for those of us on brussels time
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    tyson said:

    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    As this is a particular rancourous thread, let's end it Godwin style:

    Over to Joe:

    "Now, people, rise up, and let the storm break loose"

    (Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!)
    You'll set Justin off again.
    I believe he's just set fire to Norwich Town Hall - he can't afford the Reichstag.
    * PEDANTRY ALERT * That would be Norwich City Hall, would it not?

    Didn't Hitler want to make Norwich City Hall his HQ for governing Britain?
    (Wearing serious hat this time): no, that was Blenheim Palace.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,397
    edited November 2016

    DavidL said:


    Darn it.

    I'm (reluctantly) coming to the conclusion that the judges were correct.

    * The referendum was unquestionably advisory, so cannot be automatically implemented.

    * Invoking A50 will irrevocably remove legal rights.

    * The government by itself cannot take away rights, so parliament must be involved at the start.

    Hard to argue against those technical points.

    The problem is that the whole think stinks of trickery to avoid a (real) Brexit, and leads to further distrust in the establishment.

    I had an interesting debate yesterday with an SNP QC who was of the view that this argument about taking away rights was a novelty with no basis in our precedents or law. And he was a strong remainer. The government needs new and sharper arguments. I very much hope that Richard Keen, the Advocate General, is brought in for the appeal. He knows how to shape the arguments into a way that can win.
    Was your SNP QC arguing something similar to Prof John Finnis?
    Yes. The way the Government argued this case would make someone who loves a good conspiracy think that they wanted to lose. It was utterly inept.

    Edit. Thanks for the link by the way. Really interesting read.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:
    Must cost Trump a pretty penny to fly that thing around the country – and very convenient.
  • Options
    tyson said:

    JohnO said:

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:
    That article is withering.

    A starker, more blatant attack on judicial independence is hard to conceive. It is one thing to criticise court rulings. Or to draw attention to judicial decisions where they fall into error. But when the legislature and executive join forces with the media to launch rocket after rocket of personal, unwarranted abuse that is intended not to criticise or inform, but to demean, undermine, unnerve, terrify and intimidate independent judges who cannot answer back, we have a genuine constitutional crisis. The separation of powers is not just breached but scorched to the ground.
    So now we have lawyers screaming 'safezone' and the Continuity Osbornes parroting the New Statesman.

    Its a pity that Cameron lied and didn't immediately trigger A50 as he had promised.

    The mess would be even more amusing in that case.

    This is how Felicity Hannah, who it seems is now so worth quoting at length, describes herself - 'Freelance PF journalist writing for the Independent, Mirror, Yahoo & others'.

    Clearly a political and legal titan to behold.
    Attacking judicial independence is when the government fires or arrests judges, or packs the Courts with their supporters. Rude tabloids don't really amount to that.
    We've seen such an example in Turkey this year.
    And this year a Remain supporting MP was murdered by someone who gave his name as 'Death to traitors, freedom for Britain.'

    The front page editorial of a British newspaper urged their readers to "Rise up people of Britain and fight, fight, fight" in response to the court's decision.
    As this is a particular rancourous thread, let's end it Godwin style:

    Over to Joe:

    "Now, people, rise up, and let the storm break loose"

    (Nun, Volk, steh auf und Sturm brich los!)
    You'll set Justin off again.
    I believe he's just set fire to Norwich Town Hall - he can't afford the Reichstag.
    * PEDANTRY ALERT * That would be Norwich City Hall, would it not?

    Didn't Hitler want to make Norwich City Hall his HQ for governing Britain?
    Story I heard was Bridgnorth...

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/4461879.stm
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,144
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    There is a big difference between criticising judges and accusing them of bias. Friday morning's front pages were unprecedented and based on the flimsiest of evidence.
    I've given you evidence, which you have studiously ignored. Baron Thomas, who ruled on A50:

    "is one of the Founding Members of the European Law Institute, a non-profit organisation that conducts research, makes recommendations and provides practical guidance in the field of European legal development with a goal of enhancing the European legal integration."

    He should have recused himself. Clear conflict of interest.

    I am less concerned by the openly gay fencer.
    Twaddle. This is the kind of nonsense that's dogged that inquiry into 'historic child sex abuse' - a succession of chairmen having to resign because of supposed links to 'The Establishment'. If you poke around in anyone's background you can find something that will persuade you that they're compromised or corrupt, if you're that mentally inclined. My belief is that you only get appointed to these positions in the first place because you've proven yourself to be scrupulously objective. But then I'm patriotic and have faith in my country.
    Read my later tweet on Baron Thomas. He's not just linked to the EU, it is his founding passion.
    Which brings us back to a point I asked the other day (but wasn't answered, AFAIK) - who put together the panel of three judges?
  • Options
    Michael McDonald ‏@ElectProject 7m7 minutes ago
    TX #earlyvote update: 15 largest counties reporting, just shy of 4.5 Million voted, up 32.0% from 2012
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,141

    SeanT said:

    IanB2 said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    There is a big difference between criticising judges and accusing them of bias. Friday morning's front pages were unprecedented and based on the flimsiest of evidence.
    I've given you evidence, which you have studiously ignored. Baron Thomas, who ruled on A50:

    "is one of the Founding Members of the European Law Institute, a non-profit organisation that conducts research, makes recommendations and provides practical guidance in the field of European legal development with a goal of enhancing the European legal integration."

    He should have recused himself. Clear conflict of interest.

    I am less concerned by the openly gay fencer.
    Except that all of us can read their judgement in full, and there is no bias that is apparent. Cromwell won the civil war and they are simply respecting the result.
    Carl Gardner, a senior legal Remainer, thinks the judgement was rubbish, or, as he puts it, surprising, problematic, and wrongly decided.
    Prof Tomkins:

    Herein lies the fatal flaw in the third step of the High Court’s reasoning: how can the 1972 Parliament coherently be said to have intended an outcome that was not established in our constitutional law until nearly thirty years later? A ruling that relies on the proposition that the European Communities Act must be interpreted as if its authors intended their work to prevent ministers from exercising their prerogative powers over the making and unmaking of treaties is one that is inevitably anachronistic. It is therefore an irrational conclusion and, for that reason, there must surely be at least the prospect that the UK Supreme Court will in time overturn this week’s High Court ruling.
    The full article is here for anyone who's interested:
    https://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2016/11/05/brexit-democracy-and-the-rule-of-law/

    But really it seems rather bizarre to argue that Parliament's primacy in the sphere of legislation is a recent innovation. The judges did go to the trouble of giving a detailed survey of the background, starting with Sir Edward Coke in 1610:
    "the King by his proclamation or other ways cannot change any part of the common law, or statute law, or the customs of the realm".
  • Options
    glw said:

    Not the ordinary person's, not even the media's but the people who are in charge of the country - politicians, judges, bankers etc

    Exactly, all we did is believe what were told and vote, it's not our fault that the country is run by weasels.

    Indeed.

    To the average person this looks like some shysters wriggling out of what they had promised.

    Trust has gone.

    The A50 judgement is only the latest straw after endless lies on immigration, the bankers walking away with their millions, politicians and their expenses, Philip Green and the BHS pension fund, tax dodgers and child abusers at the BBC, criminal plods, the Iraq war lies etc etc etc

    We're told that we have to 'respect' Judges.

    Why ???

    In my world respect has to be earned first and the British establishment has done damn all to earn that respect.
  • Options

    We're in a badly overwrought situation.

    Lets consider some of the aspects of how we got here:

    1) Government leaflets telling voters that they would make the decision

    2) A Prime Minister who told the voters that he would be immediately trigger A50 and then didn't

    3) A Court decision overruling what the government leaflets had told the voters about them making the decision

    4) The EU - an organisation with a decades long history of overturning referendum results

    5) A widespread feeling that the law is NOT equal and that "there's one rule for them and another for the rest of us"

    Its a mess isn't it.

    But who's fault is it ?

    Not the ordinary person's, not even the media's but the people who are in charge of the country - politicians, judges, bankers etc

    You might also add to your list the numerous Continuity Remain politicians and media personalities, who deftly combine outrage about the danger to democracy posed by the demonization of judges with loud and continuous demands for Parliament to ignore the referendum result and cancel Brexit.

    It's no wonder that so many people are willing to swallow a narrative of betrayal, when many in positions of power want to betray them and are proud to say so.
    Judges are not "in charge of the country". What utter tosh. They apply the law, past by Parliament.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Pulpstar said:
    Must cost Trump a pretty penny to fly that thing around the country – and very convenient.
    It's leased to the campaign by a Trump company. He's making money on it.
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    "Giving judges a roasting isn't part and parcel of any healthy democracy."

    Matron.
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Must cost Trump a pretty penny to fly that thing around the country – and very convenient.
    It's leased to the campaign by a Trump company. He's making money on it.
    That and all the donations he keeps after may help him stay solvent!
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    edited November 2016

    glw said:

    Not the ordinary person's, not even the media's but the people who are in charge of the country - politicians, judges, bankers etc

    Exactly, all we did is believe what were told and vote, it's not our fault that the country is run by weasels.

    Indeed.

    To the average person this looks like some shysters wriggling out of what they had promised.

    Trust has gone.

    The A50 judgement is only the latest straw after endless lies on immigration, the bankers walking away with their millions, politicians and their expenses, Philip Green and the BHS pension fund, tax dodgers and child abusers at the BBC, criminal plods, the Iraq war lies etc etc etc

    We're told that we have to 'respect' Judges.

    Why ???

    In my world respect has to be earned first and the British establishment has done damn all to earn that respect.
    And this is exactly why, if the establishment don't get their head out of the clouds and start coming to terms with the referendum pretty soon, things might actually turn very nasty.

    The country feels like a powder keg right now, waiting to ignite...

    I think Theresa May does "get" this but most of the establishment don't yet.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,554

    In my world respect has to be earned first and the British establishment has done damn all to earn that respect.

    Another thing occurs to me is that the current impasse appears to be another consequence of Cameron rushing, he had until the end of 2017 to call the referendum. He might have got a better deal if he had taken more time, or at least allowed for more preparation for what happens after the vote.
  • Options
    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited November 2016
    Betfair midprices:

    Clinton 1.295
    Trump 4.55
    Pence 885
    Biden 955
    Sanders 960

    Probability of a Trump win:

    Polls (538): 35%
    Betting (Betfair): 22%
  • Options
    619 said:
    'You effete Euros just don't understand the culture, perfectly normal, etc'
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,982
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:


    Darn it.

    I'm (reluctantly) coming to the conclusion that the judges were correct.

    * The referendum was unquestionably advisory, so cannot be automatically implemented.

    * Invoking A50 will irrevocably remove legal rights.

    * The government by itself cannot take away rights, so parliament must be involved at the start.

    Hard to argue against those technical points.

    The problem is that the whole think stinks of trickery to avoid a (real) Brexit, and leads to further distrust in the establishment.

    I had an interesting debate yesterday with an SNP QC who was of the view that this argument about taking away rights was a novelty with no basis in our precedents or law. And he was a strong remainer. The government needs new and sharper arguments. I very much hope that Richard Keen, the Advocate General, is brought in for the appeal. He knows how to shape the arguments into a way that can win.
    Was your SNP QC arguing something similar to Prof John Finnis?
    Yes. The way the Government argued this case would make someone who loves a good conspiracy think that they wanted to lose. It was utterly inept.

    Edit. Thanks for the link by the way. Really interesting read.
    Your points about popular sovereignty were very interesting.

    Certainly, since Dicey's time, women and working class men have been enfranchised, the Lords is no longer the equal of the Commons, the business vote and university seats abolished, the principle of equal-sized constituencies generally accepted, devolved legislatures have been created, and numerous referenda held, and the outcomes of those referenda then legislated upon. It's a very different world.
  • Options
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:


    Darn it.

    I'm (reluctantly) coming to the conclusion that the judges were correct.

    * The referendum was unquestionably advisory, so cannot be automatically implemented.

    * Invoking A50 will irrevocably remove legal rights.

    * The government by itself cannot take away rights, so parliament must be involved at the start.

    Hard to argue against those technical points.

    The problem is that the whole think stinks of trickery to avoid a (real) Brexit, and leads to further distrust in the establishment.

    I had an interesting debate yesterday with an SNP QC who was of the view that this argument about taking away rights was a novelty with no basis in our precedents or law. And he was a strong remainer. The government needs new and sharper arguments. I very much hope that Richard Keen, the Advocate General, is brought in for the appeal. He knows how to shape the arguments into a way that can win.
    Was your SNP QC arguing something similar to Prof John Finnis?
    Yes. The way the Government argued this case would make someone who loves a good conspiracy think that they wanted to lose. It was utterly inept.

    Edit. Thanks for the link by the way. Really interesting read.
    Finnis is very much a non-mug. I'm not sure how well the tax treaty analogy really works (other academics don't seem to think it's such a clincher as he does), but Finnis is not the only non-mug to think the decision was incorrect and other people have other arguments for thinking so - I just found his piece particularly interesting for pinpointing a moment in the courtroom where things might have turned around, and might be argued better the next time. It's pretty clear that the govt had (or could, or should, have had) a decent case.

    It wouldn't surprise me, though, if the Supreme Court ultimately come down the same way but acknowledge a few "corrections" to the thought process.

    You might also be interested in a few of the other short pieces at http://judicialpowerproject.org.uk/high-court-miller-judgment-expert-reactions/ - quite a varied bunch.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,920
    edited November 2016
    glw said:

    In my world respect has to be earned first and the British establishment has done damn all to earn that respect.

    Another thing occurs to me is that the current impasse appears to be another consequence of Cameron rushing, he had until the end of 2017 to call the referendum. He might have got a better deal if he had taken more time, or at least allowed for more preparation for what happens after the vote.
    1. He was never interested in getting a "deal" as evidenced by him telling people in 2013 that he would campaign to remain whatever happened. The "negotiation" was just smoke and mirrors.

    2. He and Osborne would always have arrogantly assumed the riff raff would do what they were told and vote to remain so they would never have taken seriously the prospect that leave might win and planned accordingly.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    We're in a badly overwrought situation.

    Lets consider some of the aspects of how we got here:

    1) Government leaflets telling voters that they would make the decision

    2) A Prime Minister who told the voters that he would be immediately trigger A50 and then didn't

    3) A Court decision overruling what the government leaflets had told the voters about them making the decision

    4) The EU - an organisation with a decades long history of overturning referendum results

    5) A widespread feeling that the law is NOT equal and that "there's one rule for them and another for the rest of us"

    Its a mess isn't it.

    But who's fault is it ?

    Not the ordinary person's, not even the media's but the people who are in charge of the country - politicians, judges, bankers etc

    You might also add to your list the numerous Continuity Remain politicians and media personalities, who deftly combine outrage about the danger to democracy posed by the demonization of judges with loud and continuous demands for Parliament to ignore the referendum result and cancel Brexit.

    It's no wonder that so many people are willing to swallow a narrative of betrayal, when many in positions of power want to betray them and are proud to say so.
    Judges are not "in charge of the country". What utter tosh. They apply the law, past by Parliament.
    It took me a few moments to work out what you were complaining about.

    @another_richard mentioned, at the end of his remarks, the judges as part of what I read as a broad critique of a complacent establishment.

    I, for my part, only talked about the misbehaviour of some of the politicians and media personalities who want to unpick the verdict of the people, because it runs contrary to what they want. This is beyond dispute. They have called for Parliament to veto Brexit quite unashamedly. I didn't mention the judges at all.
  • Options
    ChrisChris Posts: 11,141
    619 said:
    I see the latest update of Nate Cohn's North Carolina analysis shows Hillary Clinton's projected lead up to 6.4%.

    This is essentially a recalibration of a poll from a fortnight ago, based on demographic data about early voters. As the polls have shifted since then, it certainly can't be taken at face value, but his initial projection was a 6% Clinton lead, so it does imply that in demographic terms the turnout so far is better than had been expected for Clinton.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,903
    edited November 2016
    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    I would compare it to criticising the referees after a defeat and then further accusing them of bias exacerbated by one of them being an admitted homosexual.

    A football manager would probably get a lifetime ban. The Daily Mail gets a bunch of nodding donkeys on PB agreeing with them
  • Options
    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    619 said:

    Trump is going to Minnesota tomorrow.He couldn't be close there or could he?

    If he can squeeze Johnson back down closer to usual election levels then based on 538 he has a chance of making these midwest states competitive. That would appear to be the strategy; pretty much all the places he's going to are where there is a Johnson vote to squeeze that theoretically could get him over the line.
    maybe, though those voters are younger/hate trump, so could easily break for clinton as well
    I'm not sure they're all younger but even assuming that were true, if they aren't already voting Clinton then they probably lean republican. The polling shows a distinct correlation with Stein taking from Clinton and Johnson taking from Trump. Indeed, Trump's recent uptick has largely been at the expense of Johnson's share in the polls.
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    I would compare it to criticising the referees after a defeat and then further accusing them of bias exacerbated by one of them being an admitted homosexual.

    A football manager would probably get a lifetime ban. The Daily Mail gets a bunch of nodding donkeys on PB agreeing with them
    Look, nobody's saying the Mail was acting responsibly, but you'd imagine an openly gay fencer probably won't be triggered by being called an openly olypmic ex-gay fencer, irrespective of the unpleasant motives.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,982
    Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    There does seem to be a view that for the Press to criticise judges (however ignorant that criticism may be) is akin to blasphemy. I think the judges are quite capable of ignoring criticism

    I would compare it to criticising the referees after a defeat and then further accusing them of bias exacerbated by one of them being an admitted homosexual.

    A football manager would probably get a lifetime ban. The Daily Mail gets a bunch of nodding donkeys on PB agreeing with them
    Football fans accuse referees of all manner of depravities.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited November 2016
    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsQeR1HlhHY

    Trump Plane 2016

    Must cost Trump a pretty penny to fly that thing around the country – and very convenient.
    It's leased to the campaign by a Trump company. He's making money on it.
    Not sure how that works, someone's picking up the tab, be it his company or Trump himself.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Chris said:

    619 said:
    I see the latest update of Nate Cohn's North Carolina analysis shows Hillary Clinton's projected lead up to 6.4%.

    This is essentially a recalibration of a poll from a fortnight ago, based on demographic data about early voters. As the polls have shifted since then, it certainly can't be taken at face value, but his initial projection was a 6% Clinton lead, so it does imply that in demographic terms the turnout so far is better than had been expected for Clinton.
    Could you translate the lingo please. I get it means educated voters more Clinton etc but I don't get this tweet at all. Thanx.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Chris said:

    619 said:
    I see the latest update of Nate Cohn's North Carolina analysis shows Hillary Clinton's projected lead up to 6.4%.

    This is essentially a recalibration of a poll from a fortnight ago, based on demographic data about early voters. As the polls have shifted since then, it certainly can't be taken at face value, but his initial projection was a 6% Clinton lead, so it does imply that in demographic terms the turnout so far is better than had been expected for Clinton.
    Yeah, I am not trusting Cohn's analysis at all. I think Trump has won NC.

  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsQeR1HlhHY

    Trump Plane 2016

    Must cost Trump a pretty penny to fly that thing around the country – and very convenient.
    It's leased to the campaign by a Trump company. He's making money on it.
    Not sure how that works, someone's picking up the tab, be it his company or Trump himself.
    The campaign is picking up the tab at the moment. All those small donation are going to pay Trump to fly around in his own aircraft. And rent office space from himself. And pay for holding fund raising events in his resorts.
  • Options
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Pulpstar said:

    ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsQeR1HlhHY

    Trump Plane 2016

    Must cost Trump a pretty penny to fly that thing around the country – and very convenient.
    It's leased to the campaign by a Trump company. He's making money on it.
    Not sure how that works, someone's picking up the tab, be it his company or Trump himself.
    The campaign is picking up the tab at the moment. All those small donation are going to pay Trump to fly around in his own aircraft. And rent office space from himself. And pay for holding fund raising events in his resorts.
    He sounds to a smart businessman, - I take it Hilary is just spending everyone’s money...!
This discussion has been closed.