Mind you he also says he supported Leave, ridiculous! I mean I can understand Remainers who want soft Brexit at all costs or ?
There are a lot of us who like Phillips wanted and campaigned for a soft Brexit. There are more than a few of us on here who want exactly that - an EEA type relationship with the EU. Just because it is not what you wanted doesn't mean it is not a respectable wish. And one that is entirely possible. Indeed I have a £100 bet with Richard Nabavi on that very outcome. I know Phillips wanted that because I campaigned alongside him.
Given the focus of much of the Leave campaign on immigration, which was crucial in taking them over the line in many white working class
I am well aware you voted remain. We discussed it enough before the vote. But you like many
I have no doubt you played your part in the Leave victory but Leave would almost certainly not have got over 50% of the vote without the support of voters who wanted to control immigration, that was a key plank of your side's campaign platform, you cannot now disown it completely because it is no longer convenient I am afraid
I disowned it all the time we were actually fighting it. Go back and look at my comments on here. We should I suddenly sign up to it when we won when I didn't while we were still
That was part of the platform of the Vote Leave campaign, whether you personally disliked it or
Doesn't matter. The democratic legitimacy of the result (that it was supported by 50%+ of those who voted) has been emphasised as crucial by the winning side.
This means that you have to demonstrate that over 96% of the Leave voters supported your anti-immigration position for that to be explicitly valid. If that's not possible, then no variant of Brexit has explicit legitimacy and we have to find the best compromise variant for everyone - not just the most hardline Leavers.
Even if you include Remainers a clear majority of the country wants the PM to try and control immigration, for her to refuse to even try would be electoral suicide. In any case when a party wins a general election it has a mandate for its manifesto even if significantly less than 50% voted for each plank of it, over 50% voted for the Leave referendum manifesto
Where's the Leave manifesto? I've heard again and again about how promises like £350 million a week for the NHS can't be seen like manifesto promises because they weren't an alternative Government. But you're saying they were?
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
LOL. Not that they've proved useful to get what you want, you can insult them as much as you like!
Well, you can't actually. But at east they now know what you really feel about them!
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
LOL. Not that they've proved useful to get what you want, you can insult them as much as you like!
Well, you can't actually. But at east they now know what you really feel about them!
How has he used Remain voters to get what he wants?
Mind you he also says he supported Leave, ridiculous! I mean I can understand Remainers who want soft Brexit at all costs or ?
There are a lot of us who like Phillips wanted and campaigned for a soft Brexit. There are more than a few of us on here who want exactly that - an EEA type relationship with the EU. Just because it is not what you wanted doesn't mean it is not a respectable wish. And one that is entirely possible. Indeed I have a £100 bet with Richard Nabavi on that very outcome. I know Phillips wanted that because I campaigned alongside him.
Given the focus of much of the Leave campaign on immigration, which was crucial in taking them over the line in many white working class
I am well aware you voted remain. We discussed it enough before the vote. But you like many
I have no doubt you played your part in the Leave victory but Leave would almost certainly not have got over 50% of the vote without the support of voters who wanted to control immigration, that was a key plank of your side's campaign platform, you cannot now disown it completely because it is no longer convenient I am afraid
I disowned it all the time we were actually fighting it. Go back and look at my comments on here. We should I suddenly sign up to it when we won when I didn't while we were still
That was part of the platform of the Vote Leave campaign, whether you personally disliked it or
Doesn't matter. The democratic legitimacy of the .
Even if you include Remainers a clear majority of the country wants the PM to try and control immigration, for her to refuse to even try would be electoral suicide. In any case when a party wins a general election it has a mandate for its manifesto even if significantly less than 50% voted for each plank of it, over 50% voted for the Leave referendum manifesto
Where's the Leave manifesto?
If ultimately in the longer term the savings from Brexit enable £350 million to be given to the NHS then so be it, May will certainly be trying to limit any future UK contributions to the EU budget. However that point was really one poster, immigration control was at the core throughout the Leave campaign and the key reason it one so many white working class areas
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
LOL. Not that they've proved useful to get what you want, you can insult them as much as you like!
Well, you can't actually. But at east they now know what you really feel about them!
If you actually bothered to look at the thread you would see I was talking about Remain voters not Leave voters. Remain voters helped me to get nothing at all.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
Not really. If we are to have our rules and migration set by others and to pay in for the privilege, then I want to be represented at all levels. Either in or out is fine, but half in? No thanks!
In any case voters are allowed to be stupid. That is democracy.
I am with you on both counts, Dr Fox. Fully out is better than the worst of both worlds, and voters are allowed to be stupid.
My one caveat is that I really don't know how anyone can justifiably claim another person's view or vote is stupid. To know that would require perfect knowledge of that 'stupid' voters private preferences and priorities. Different is not necessarily stupid.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
No Alistair it really wasn't and that is just your long established bigotry showing through again.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
No Alistair it really wasn't and that is just your long established bigotry showing through again.
Turkey is joining the EU, Vote Leave insisted. It was the vilest of lies, told to inflame prejudices about Muslims, bookended with advocating Australian points systems, chosen for their white overtones.
You can't fight a referendum campaign with xenophobia then walk away whistling as if it isn't your problem.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
LOL. Not that they've proved useful to get what you want, you can insult them as much as you like!
Well, you can't actually. But at east they now know what you really feel about them!
If you actually bothered to look at the thread you would see I was talking about Remain voters not Leave voters. Remain voters helped me to get nothing at all.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
No Alistair it really wasn't and that is just your long established bigotry showing through again.
Turkey is joining the EU, Vote Leave insisted. It was the vilest of lies, told to inflame prejudices about Muslims, bookended with advocating Australian points systems, chosen for their white overtones.
You can't fight a referendum campaign with xenophobia then walk away whistling as if it isn't your problem.
I would agree on much of that and Mrs May clearly understands that too, as a reluctant Remainer she inherited the Leave vote and knows it has to be implemented, Leave won on the backs of the white working class, they cannot wash their hands of them now
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
Oh god, Alistair, this is just idiotic. And you know it. Get over yourself.
You lost, but we can have a Brexit that will keep people like me happy and will preserve much of what you like about the EU, but in your determination to prove the Brexiteers are total idiots, you'd rather see a calamitous Hard Brexit. Literally: just to say "I told you so"
It's juvenile.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
No Alistair it really wasn't and that is just your long established bigotry showing through again.
Turkey is joining the EU, Vote Leave insisted. It was the vilest of lies, told to inflame prejudices about Muslims, bookended with advocating Australian points systems, chosen for their white overtones.
You can't fight a referendum campaign with xenophobia then walk away whistling as if it isn't your problem.
You are aware (part of) the reason for the Australian immigation system etc was to remove racial bias in immigration? As opposed to the previous, overt White Australia policies?
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
Oh god, Alistair, this is just idiotic. And you know it. Get over yourself.
You lost, but we can have a Brexit that will keep people like me happy and will preserve much of what you like about the EU, but in your determination to prove the Brexiteers are total idiots, you'd rather see a calamitous Hard Brexit. Literally: just to say "I told you so"
It's juvenile.
My fear is that whilst it might keep you and people like you happy, there will be many, many people - some the very same UKIPpy people who were noisy about leaving in the first place - who will be unhappy.
At best that will lead to calls for us to withdraw from whatever EEA-style approach is decided upon: perhaps because of monies being paid in, and/or the fact we are still in 'Europe' in some form. At medium it will lead to sustained political unrest (as good as they may be for betting opportunities). At worst there might be real social schisms "they aren't listening to us / they cheated us!"
There's another point: there's been a great trend of politicians, the media and the public blaming the EU for things that were at best tangential to the EU. This will continue if we are in the EEA.
Having said that, nothing has changed my mind from Quexit, whether that is Hard or Semi-soft.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
Oh god, Alistair, this is just idiotic. And you know it. Get over yourself.
You lost, but we can have a Brexit that will keep people like me happy and will preserve much of what you like about the EU, but in your determination to prove the Brexiteers are total idiots, you'd rather see a calamitous Hard Brexit. Literally: just to say "I told you so"
It's juvenile.
It does not necessarily have to be a fully hard Brexit but the idea that May can throw back the votes of the white working class in their face and not try to obtain any controls on free movement at all is ridiculous
That doesn't sound much for what appears to be an important position in central London.
So I'll give it a pass.
Yes, I thought that too - lead the Brexit team reporting to the Prime Minister for 30 grand? Perhaps they are counting on super-enthusiasts to be willing to do it while living in a garret.
"If leader ratings are indeed a good guide to electoral outcomes then Clinton should do it on Tuesday"
Here's hoping you're right Mike, for my sake as much as yours!
A dull election, with only three states changing hands. OH, IA, NC. HC wins 323 - 215.
This is my view, for the moment.
I'm staying with 308 - 229 -1 for now and *gulp* just about a break even on my spread-betting. Hopefully a few tidy pick-ups on some single state betting, like your very tasty suggestion yesterday in relation to Utah which looked like the easiest money over the entire campaign.
Yep I have to say I think it is my favourite "straight up" bet of the election, rather than any more errm nefarious stuff
I await my 1-70 on Maryland and California to arrive with enough profit for about 4 pints of beer too.
And the 1-50 on DC
It seemed extraordinary that two of our largest bookies, Ladbrokes and Hills were locked onto offering the GOP at 8/11 last night, despite one going back for more and more at that price. I don't know when they finally woke up but I see tonight that Ladbrokes have the Mormon State on offer at 2/7 with Hills going even shorter at 1/4. It just goes to show there are bargains to be had, even at this late stage in the proceedings, but it certainly helps to have any number of pairs of eyes seeking them out.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
Oh god, Alistair, this is just idiotic. And you know it. Get over yourself.
You lost, but we can have a Brexit that will keep people like me happy and will preserve much of what you like about the EU, but in your determination to prove the Brexiteers are total idiots, you'd rather see a calamitous Hard Brexit. Literally: just to say "I told you so"
It's juvenile.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your inability to recognise that the way in which the referendum was won is what is so fatally damaging to society is why you and those like you are so clueless about what is coming. You can't stir up fear and anger for four months and expect those emotions to evaporate when you don't need them any more.
The rest of us have to clear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
That doesn't sound much for what appears to be an important position in central London.
So I'll give it a pass.
Yes, I thought that too - lead the Brexit team reporting to the Prime Minister for 30 grand? Perhaps they are counting on super-enthusiasts to be willing to do it while living in a garret.
It is a Policy lead on the Brexit team, not the Permanent Secretary and it is public sector. The average full time London wage is £37k so at the top end it is above that, for all London workers the average wage is £28k
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
Oh god, Alistair, this is just idiotic. And you know it. Get over yourself.
You lost, but we can have a Brexit that will keep people like me happy and will preserve much of what you like about the EU, but in your determination to prove the Brexiteers are total idiots, you'd rather see a calamitous Hard Brexit. Literally: just to say "I told you so"
It's juvenile.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your inability to recognise that the way in which the referendum was won is what is so fatally damaging to society is why you and those like you are so clueless about what is coming. You can't stir up fear and anger for four months and expect those emotions to evaporate when you don't need them any more.
The rest of us have to clear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
you're about the last person to clear up the mess
since the vote you've done nothing but throw oil on the fire
if you want to see what damages society look at your own behaviour
Ultra Hardcore Brexiteers will be cheesed off, whatever. They literally want Zero Migration, if not Deportation. They are about 10-15% of the country. Max. They will never be content with any conceivable Brexit, but we will cope.
Meanwhile there is a hardcore of Federalists like williamglenn who want the UK absorbed into a superstate, maybe 5-10% of the country? They likewise will never be happy with any imaginable Brexit, but who cares.
In the middle is a sensible shrugging majority who would be content with a soft Brexit which preserves as much of the single market as poss, while giving us at least a semblance of control over migration. That's where we should steer the ship of state.
The committed hardcore can of course sweep the less certain along with them, even if they are a minority. It is certainly idiotic to suggest you have to commit to something to 'honour' an implied (if likely correct) indication of the wishes of the country even if it would be disastrous (there's a reason the options were woolly and that options would be taken by the government afterward no matter what, to allow flexibility - it requires herculean mental gymnastics to make such rigidity from a vote with no options and just strong mood music binding despite difference of opinion from those within), and while soft brexiteers may end up quite disappointed, ultra brexiters very disappointed (since as you say nothing will satisfy them) and federalists are impossible to please at this point, there's plenty to play for and it is perfectly appropriate for the sides to fight for it.
Free movement is ending, Keir Starmer's tone as much as anything confirms this.
I agree...Alistair is right, FoxintheUK is right.....and Keir Starmer is right
We voted for Brexit...there is fuck all we can do about it now. We are not going to get a deal anyway- 27 EU countries on one side and Brexit notrights on t'other. No.
So let's do a hard Brexit quickly..see how we go...and then do something different in the future if we have to. Brexit will not be as bad as the 2008 banking crash. It will certainly not be as difficult as a war, or maybe even the 1981 recession. People like me have lost that European dream...but maybe that is all it was, and Europe will come crashing down soon enough.
So, let's stop fucking around with the hard/soft Brexit bullshit. It's becoming a torture..a death by a thousand cuts and a thousand Guardian columnists...
There's another point: there's been a great trend of politicians, the media and the public blaming the EU for things that were at best tangential to the EU. This will continue if we are in the EEA.
Having said that, nothing has changed my mind from Quexit, whether that is Hard or Semi-soft.
Edit: whatever!=withdraw
Ultra Hardcore Brexiteers will be cheesed off, whatever. They literally want Zero Migration, if not Deportation. They are about 10-15% of the country. Max. They will never be content with any conceivable Brexit, but we will cope.
Meanwhile there is a hardcore of Federalists like williamglenn who want the UK absorbed into a superstate, maybe 5-10% of the country? They likewise will never be happy with any imaginable Brexit, but who cares.
In the middle is a sensible shrugging majority who would be content with a soft Brexit which preserves as much of the single market as poss, while giving us at least a semblance of control over migration. That's where we should steer the ship of state.
Leaving aside the accuracy of the percentages, there are two problems with that thinking: it is a continuum rather than distinct groupings (*), and people are influenced by many different factors.
The middle 'sensible shrugging majority' are also, by their nature, quieter and less troublesome.
(*) And the continuum may not be a continuous gradient.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Oh god, It's juvenile.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your inability to recognise that the way in which the referendum was won is what is so fatally damaging to society is why you and those like you are so clueless about what is coming. You can't stir up fear and anger for four months and expect those emotions to evaporate when you don't need them any more.
The rest of us have to clear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The fear and anger were stirred up, you craven, narcissistic moron, by 20-30 years of multiculturalism and mass migration imposed on an unwilling population by an entire generation of irresponsible liberal idiots, i.e. people like you - an elite which simultaneously lied about, and evaded, referendums on Europe at every possible juncture, any one of which, if it had been called, would have been lost, thus preventing the final and fatal rupture of Brexit.
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your inability to recognise that the way in which the referendum was won is what is so fatally damaging to society is why you and those like you are so clueless about what is coming. You can't stir up fear and anger for four months and expect those emotions to evaporate when you don't need them any more.
The rest of us have to clear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The fear and anger were stirred up, you craven, narcissistic moron, by 20-30 years of multiculturalism and mass migration imposed on an unwilling population by an entire generation of irresponsible liberal idiots, i.e. people like you - an elite which simultaneously lied about, and evaded, referendums on Europe at every possible juncture, any one of which, if it had been called, would have been lost, thus preventing the final and fatal rupture of Brexit.
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
Oh god, Alistair, this is just idiotic. And you know it. Get over yourself.
You lost, but we can have a Brexit that will keep people like me happy and will preserve much of what you like about the EU, but in your determination to prove the Brexiteers are total idiots, you'd rather see a calamitous Hard Brexit. Literally: just to say "I told you so"
It's juvenile.
My f There's another point: there's been a great trend of politicians, the media and the public blaming the EU for things that were at best tangential to the EU. This will continue if we are in the EEA.
Having said that, nothing has changed my mind from Quexit, whether that is Hard or Semi-soft.
Edit: whatever!=withdraw
Ultra Hardcore Brexiteers will be cheesed off, whatever. They literally want Zero Migration, if not Deportation. They are about 10-15% of the country. Max. They will never be content with any conceivable Brexit, but we will cope.
Meanwhile there is a hardcore of Federalists like williamglenn who want the UK absorbed into a superstate, maybe 5-10% of the country? They likewise will never be happy with any imaginable Brexit, but who cares.
In the middle is a sensible shrugging majority who would be content with a soft Brexit which preserves as much of the single market as poss, while giving us at least a semblance of control over migration. That's where we should steer the ship of state.
There's another point: there's been a great trend of politicians, the media and the public blaming the EU for things that were at best tangential to the EU. This will continue if we are in the EEA.
Having said that, nothing has changed my mind from Quexit, whether that is Hard or Semi-soft.
Edit: whatever!=withdraw
Ultra Hardcore Brexiteers will be cheesed off, whatever. They literally want Zero Migration, if not Deportation. They are about 10-15% of the country. Max. They will never be content with any conceivable Brexit, but we will cope.
Meanwhile there is a hardcore of Federalists like williamglenn who want the UK absorbed into a superstate, maybe 5-10% of the country? They likewise will never be happy with any imaginable Brexit, but who cares.
In the middle is a sensible shrugging majority who would be content with a soft Brexit which preserves as much of the single market as poss, while giving us at least a semblance of control over migration. That's where we should steer the ship of state.
Leaving aside the accuracy of the percentages, there are two problems with that thinking: it is a continuum rather than distinct groupings (*), and people are influenced by many different factors.
The middle 'sensible shrugging majority' are also, by their nature, quieter and less troublesome.
(*) And the continuum may not be a continuous gradient.
By that measure the country would be ungovernable on any issue at all. There is a continuum of views on every issue. But only a small percentage at each end are unwilling to compromise. It is funny and rather sad that the same people who have spent so long telling us that the only way to win elections is by moving to the centre ground are now the same people who are saying there can be no compromise. One might think you want Brexit to be as difficult as possible just so you can have gloating rights.
There's another point: there's been a great trend of politicians, the media and the public blaming the EU for things that were at best tangential to the EU. This will continue if we are in the EEA.
Having said that, nothing has changed my mind from Quexit, whether that is Hard or Semi-soft.
Edit: whatever!=withdraw
Ultra Hardcore Brexiteers will be cheesed off, whatever. They literally want Zero Migration, if not Deportation. They are about 10-15% of the country. Max. They will never be content with any conceivable Brexit, but we will cope.
Meanwhile there is a hardcore of Federalists like williamglenn who want the UK absorbed into a superstate, maybe 5-10% of the country? They likewise will never be happy with any imaginable Brexit, but who cares.
In the middle is a sensible shrugging majority who would be content with a soft Brexit which preserves as much of the single market as poss, while giving us at least a semblance of control over migration. That's where we should steer the ship of state.
Leaving aside the accuracy of the percentages, there are two problems with that thinking: it is a continuum rather than distinct groupings (*), and people are influenced by many different factors.
The middle 'sensible shrugging majority' are also, by their nature, quieter and less troublesome.
(*) And the continuum may not be a continuous gradient.
By that measure the country would be ungovernable on any issue at all. There is a continuum of views on every issue. But only a small percentage at each end are unwilling to compromise. It is funny and rather sad that the same people who have spent so long telling us that the only way to win elections is by moving to the centre ground are now the same people who are saying there can be no compromise. One might think you want Brexit to be as difficult as possible just so you can have gloating rights.
No. The country will only pull back together once Brexit has been explored in the manner anticipated by the referendum campaign. Britain's least bad route from this awful starting point is to show the public that their views were properly listened to.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your inability to recognise that the way inhs and expect those emotions to evaporate when you don't need them any more.
The rest of us have to clear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The fear and anger wetal rupture of Brexit.
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
Last time we saw our "help" it was on Syrian refugees
you wouldnt actually take one yourself but would pay to dump one on TykeJohnno
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
No Alistair it really wasn't and that is just your long established bigotry showing through again.
Turkey is joining the EU, Vote Leave insisted. It was the vilest of lies, told to inflame prejudices about Muslims, bookended with advocating Australian points systems, chosen for their white overtones.
You can't fight a referendum campaign with xenophobia then walk away whistling as if it isn't your problem.
Well it *was* the official policy of our government to have Turkey joining, even though you and I know they never meant it.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
No Alistair it really wasn't and that is just your long established bigotry showing through again.
Turkey is joining the EU, Vote Leave insisted. It was the vilest of lies, told to inflame prejudices about Muslims, bookended with advocating Australian points systems, chosen for their white overtones.
You can't fight a referendum campaign with xenophobia then walk away whistling as if it isn't your problem.
Well it *was* the official policy of our government to have Turkey joining, even though you and I know they never meant it.
You keep on saying that second clause, yet don't seem to be able to give any evidence for the assertion.
There's another point: there's been a great trend of politicians, the media and the public blaming the EU for things that were at best tangential to the EU. This will continue if we are in the EEA.
Having said that, nothing has changed my mind from Quexit, whether that is Hard or Semi-soft.
Edit: whatever!=withdraw
Ultra Hardcore Brexiteers will be cheesed off, whatever. They literally want Zero Migration, if not Deportation. They are about 10-15% of the country. Max. They will never be content with any conceivable Brexit, but we will cope.
Meanwhile there is a hardcore of Federalists like williamglenn who want the UK absorbed into a superstate, maybe 5-10% of the country? They likewise will never be happy with any imaginable Brexit, but who cares.
In the middle is a sensible shrugging majority who would be content with a soft Brexit which preserves as much of the single market as poss, while giving us at least a semblance of control over migration. That's where we should steer the ship of state.
Leaving aside the accuracy of the percentages, there are two problems with that thinking: it is a continuum rather than distinct groupings (*), and people are influenced by many different factors.
The middle 'sensible shrugging majority' are also, by their nature, quieter and less troublesome.
(*) And the continuum may not be a continuous gradient.
By that measure the country would be ungovernable on any issue at all. There is a continuum of views on every issue. But only a small percentage at each end are unwilling to compromise. It is funny and rather sad that the same people who have spent so long telling us that the only way to win elections is by moving to the centre ground are now the same people who are saying there can be no compromise. One might think you want Brexit to be as difficult as possible just so you can have gloating rights.
No. The country will only pull back together once Brexit has been explored in the manner anticipated by the referendum campaign. Britain's least bad route from this awful starting point is to show the public that their views were properly listened to.
Things will only be pulled back together when we learn to ignore the siren whispers of extremists like you who would rather see the country crash onto the rocks than be proved wrong.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The fear and anger were stirred up, you craven, narcissistic moron, by 20-30 years of multiculturalism and mass migration imposed on an unwilling population by an entire generation of irresponsible liberal idiots, i.e. people like you - an elite which simultaneously lied about, and evaded, referendums on Europe at every possible juncture, any one of which, if it had been called, would have been lost, thus preventing the final and fatal rupture of Brexit.
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
First, seanT...you need to buy a dictionary and read what a narcissist is...I have only ever seen Alastair try and discuss policy here...we don't really hear who he is shagging, what he is drinking and how wonderful his life is......
Second, and more importantly he is right, 100% right. Theresa May knows this, Keir Starmer knows this and Alastair knows this.
Brexit was won on immigration...it was ugly, nihilistic and horrible, populist. xenophobic and fascist...but played on the Goebbels gameplan. So good one. It won.
Brexit has unleashed the populist demons....it's the will of the people..so live with it.
There will not be a soft Brexit...the bigger loser will be London...
There's another point: there's been a great trend of politicians, the media and the public blaming the EU for things that were at best tangential to the EU. This will continue if we are in the EEA.
Having said that, nothing has changed my mind from Quexit, whether that is Hard or Semi-soft.
Edit: whatever!=withdraw
Ultra Hardcore Brexiteers will be cheesed off, whatever. They literally want Zero Migration, if not Deportation. They are about 10-15% of the country. Max. They will never be content with any conceivable Brexit, but we will cope.
Meanwhile there is a hardcore of Federalists like williamglenn who want the UK absorbed into a superstate, maybe 5-10% of the country? They likewise will never be happy with any imaginable Brexit, but who cares.
In the middle is a sensible shrugging majority who would be content with a soft Brexit which preserves as much of the single market as poss, while giving us at least a semblance of control over migration. That's where we should steer the ship of state.
Leaving aside the accuracy of the percentages, there are two problems with that thinking: it is a continuum rather than distinct groupings (*), and people are influenced by many different factors.
The middle 'sensible shrugging majority' are also, by their nature, quieter and less troublesome.
(*) And the continuum may not be a continuous gradient.
By that measure the country would be ungovernable on any issue at all. There is a continuum of views on every issue. But only a small percentage at each end are unwilling to compromise. It is funny and rather sad that the same people who have spent so long telling us that the only way to win elections is by moving to the centre ground are now the same people who are saying there can be no compromise. One might think you want Brexit to be as difficult as possible just so you can have gloating rights.
Nope, that is not my position at all.
And an important point is the noisiness of the complainants. And the anti-EU folks - and especially the ant-immigration folks - are very noisy indeed. Hence the referendum.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
No Alistair it really wasn't and that is just your long established bigotry showing through again.
Turkey is joining the EU, Vote Leave insisted. It was the vilest of lies, told to inflame prejudices about Muslims, bookended with advocating Australian points systems, chosen for their white overtones.
You can't fight a referendum campaign with xenophobia then walk away whistling as if it isn't your problem.
Well it *was* the official policy of our government to have Turkey joining, even though you and I know they never meant it.
You keep on saying that second clause, yet don't seem to be able to give any evidence for the assertion.
Suppose I'm wrong, and the government sincerely and fervently wanted Turkey to join the EU? Why exactly should the Leave campaign be criticised for taking the government at their word?
First, seanT...you need to buy a dictionary and read what a narcissist is...I have only ever seen Alastair try and discuss policy here...we don't really hear who he is shagging, what he is drinking and how wonderful his life is......
Second, and more importantly he is right, 100% right. Theresa May knows this, Keir Starmer knows this and Alastair knows this.
Brexit was won on immigration...it was ugly, nihilistic and horrible, populist. xenophobic and fascist...but played on the Goebbels gameplan. So good one. It won.
Brexit has unleashed the populist demons....it's the will of the people..so live with it.
There will not be a soft Brexit...the bigger loser will be London...
Alistair descibed himself as a naricissist.
As for the rest youre simply projecting your insecurities on other people
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
snip
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The fear and anger were stirred up, you craven, narcissistic moron, by 20-30 years of multiculturalism and mass migration imposed on an unwilling population by an entire generation of irresponsible liberal idiots, i.e. people like you - an elite which simultaneously lied about, and evaded, referendums on Europe at every possible juncture, any one of which, if it had been called, would have been lost, thus preventing the final and fatal rupture of Brexit.
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Is this the same SeanT who was wringing his hands a day or two after the result and suffering a bout of remorse on behalf of all his friends in London who might lose their jobs?
@Richard Tyndall Did you not see the red top headlines today? To use USA terminology there is no pathway to a soft Brexit. I doubt the EU would agree to it anyway. People like Alastair and me.....we knew that the EU was a bit dysfunctional...but better to stay in and try and improve it. But's that all by the by. A hard Brexit it is....whatever people like you have to say about it.....
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
If there is such thing as Hard or Soft Brexit, then what so we have now? A hard EU, where Juncker, Clegg et all hate hate hate hate the English. Look at poor Louis Smith banned for having a laugh at a rotten religion. Thats the EU for you. Back to good old English, pre-William the Conqueror days please. Couldn't care less about hard brexit. most countries in the world trade happily with the EU monster without being members.
Please let YouGov put Labour on 22%!! I'm sure the rumour isn't true but we can hope
Yesterday YouGov had Labour on 27%.
If Labour isn't on 22% it bloody well deserves to be. There's only Keir Starmer that is stopping the party becoming completely irrelevant..
And I say that as a Labour party member for thirty years.....
The polls *might* still be overstating Labour's support to the same extent as they did before the election. Move 3% from Lab to Con and that would leave Labour on 24%.
I would find a figure like that credible, but nothing much lower. Labour still has a substantial voter coalition in England and Wales: public sector and transport workers, black and Muslim voters, metro left-libs, students, the Far Left, the very poor (working age people largely or wholly long-term benefit dependent,) and the surviving cohort of cultural/habit voters. And they've no real flanking opposition further to the Left, save (on some issues) for the Greens who only poll around 3-4% anyway.
There was some evidence of net churn from Lab to LD in that latest YouGov, but that's probably just the result of slightly more centre-Left and despairing Europhile voters travelling to Farron than more radical Libs being inspired to join forces with Corbyn, and I doubt it there are that many more 2015 Labour voters left for the yellows to mine (especially given that most of them likely still haven't forgiven the LDs for the Coalition.)
All in all, I think that Labour could be led into the next election by the reincarnation of Pol Pot and still bag around a quarter of the popular vote. A bit like the Tories, who haven't won less than 30% of the popular vote in any general election since 1832, their bedrock support is broad, deep and very, very persistent. Absent a wholly extraordinary combination of circumstances (as seen in Scotland, and even there Labour is still not far below 20%,) if the reds are to be ground down and replaced as the main Opposition then it's probably going to take a number of electoral cycles for this to occur.
@Richard Tyndall Did you not see the red top headlines today? To use USA terminology there is no pathway to a soft Brexit. I doubt the EU would agree to it anyway. People like Alastair and me.....we knew that the EU was a bit dysfunctional...but better to stay in and try and improve it. But's that all by the by. A hard Brexit it is....whatever people like you have to say about it.....
you had 40 years you didnt improve it for ordinary people
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
people like... you evaded... referendums on Europe at every possible juncture, any one of which, if it had been called, would have been lost, thus preventing the final and fatal rupture of Brexit.
It seems unlikely that had there been a referendum on Maastricht or Lisbon that would have prevented Brexit. There's very little in Maastricht, and nothing in Lisbon, that relates to the things the Leave campaign ran on: Nearly all of it dates back to the Single European Act or earlier. And had the anti-EU side won a referendum campaign it's not like they'd just have said, "It feels nice to have got all that stress out of my system, let's take the next 30 years off".
They'd have said, reasonably enough, that whenever the British had a chance to vote they voted against the EU because they disliked the entire enterprise, and it was time to they had their say on the whole thing.
An in/out referendum under Labour would have been harder to win than Cameron's referendum. The Tories would have been stronger on Out if they hadn't been in government, and they'd have united the entire axis of people narked off with New Labour.
John Major *might* have been able to win an in/out referendum, depending how Labour had played it, but it wouldn't have been a slam-dunk. Referendums are always a little bit random and there's no cause so popular it's guaranteed a win, and the EU has never been popular.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
snip
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The fear and anger were stirred up, you craven, narcissistic moron, by 20-30 years of multiculturalism and mass migration imposed on an unwilling population by an entire generation of irresponsible liberal idiots, i.e. people like you - an elite which simultaneously lied about, and evaded, referendums on Europe at every possible juncture, any one of which, if it had been called, would have been lost, thus preventing the final and fatal rupture of Brexit.
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Is this the same SeanT who was wringing his hands a day or two after the result and suffering a bout of remorse on behalf of all his friends in London who might lose their jobs?
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophobia. Soft Brexit is inconsistent with that. We have to put controls on immigration in place to honour the referendum result.
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
No Alistair it really wasn't and that is just your long established bigotry showing through again.
Turkey is joining the EU, Vote Leave insisted. It was the vilest of lies, told to inflame prejudices about Muslims, bookended with advocating Australian points systems, chosen for their white overtones.
You can't fight a referendum campaign with xenophobia then walk away whistling as if it isn't your problem.
Well it *was* the official policy of our government to have Turkey joining, even though you and I know they never meant it.
You keep on saying that second clause, yet don't seem to be able to give any evidence for the assertion.
Suppose I'm wrong, and the government sincerely and fervently wanted Turkey to join the EU? Why exactly should the Leave campaign be criticised for taking the government at their word?
It's what was made of it, the realities (*), and the timescales. Oh, and the implicit racism.
But mainly the racism.
And on that bombshell, goodnight everyone.
(*) My view: a Turkey that passed all the hoops and hurdles to join (e.g. the AC) would be a very different Turkey politically. Which is one reason why progress to the AC has been so slow.
@Richard Tyndall Did you not see the red top headlines today? To use USA terminology there is no pathway to a soft Brexit. I doubt the EU would agree to it anyway. People like Alastair and me.....we knew that the EU was a bit dysfunctional...but better to stay in and try and improve it. But's that all by the by. A hard Brexit it is....whatever people like you have to say about it.....
you had 40 years you didnt improve it for ordinary people
Claptrap. Europe has enjoyed its longest period of peace and prosperity in centuries.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
4king hope so
Our opponents are ruthless, intelligent, and unscrupulous. Never underestimate them.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The referendum was won by pandering to xenophd something.
No Alistair it really wasn't and that is just your long established bigotry showing through again.
Turkey is joining the EU, Vote Leave insisted. It was the vilest of lies, told to inflame prejudices about Muslims, bookended with advocating Australian points systems, chosen for their white overtones.
You can't fight a referendum campaign with xenophobia then walk away whistling as if it isn't your problem.
Well it *was* the official policy of our government to have Turkey joining, even though you and I know they never meant it.
You keep on saying that second clause, yet don't seem to be able to give any evidence for the assertion.
Suppose I'm wrong, and the government sincerely and fervently wanted Turkey to join the EU? Why exactly should the Leave campaign be criticised for taking the government at their word?
It's what was made of it, the realities (*), and the timescales. Oh, and the implicit racism.
But mainly the racism.
And on that bombshell, goodnight everyone.
(*) My view: a Turkey that passed all the hoops and hurdles to join (e.g. the AC) would be a very different Turkey politically. Which is one reason why progress to the AC has been so slow.
@Richard Tyndall Did you not see the red top headlines today? To use USA terminology there is no pathway to a soft Brexit. I doubt the EU would agree to it anyway. People like Alastair and me.....we knew that the EU was a bit dysfunctional...but better to stay in and try and improve it. But's that all by the by. A hard Brexit it is....whatever people like you have to say about it.....
you had 40 years you didnt improve it for ordinary people
Claptrap. Europe has enjoyed its longest period of peace and prosperity in centuries.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
4king hope so
Our opponents are ruthless, intelligent, and unscrupulous. Never underestimate them.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
4king hope so
Our opponents are ruthless, intelligent, and unscrupulous. Never underestimate them.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
Any EU referendum, ANY, between 1990 and 2016, would have prevented Brexit.
Totally agree. And it was also fear of losing a referendum on a single treaty that led to the huge gamble of an in/out referendum in the first place. Cameron and the people advising him thought that if they raised the stakes so the cost of voting no was to be out altogether, they could scare people into supporting them. From that perspective you have to admire the bloody-mindedness of the people in telling them where to stick it.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
A non sequitur!
and an unusual use of 'their'
But a correct one. The will of the 421 constituencies was P45s all round.
Please let YouGov put Labour on 22%!! I'm sure the rumour isn't true but we can hope
Yesterday YouGov had Labour on 27%.
If Labour isn't on 22% it bloody well deserves to be. There's only Keir Starmer that is stopping the party becoming completely irrelevant..
And I say that as a Labour party member for thirty years.....
In recent years Labour has not shared the EU obsession of the Tories, and it might actually be to their benefit to say little at a time when Tory party divisions are returning to the surface. Perceptions of May's competence are likely to have taken a hit following the chaos of the last 36 hours.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
4king hope so
There are not that many MPs who are willing to go on such a kamikaze mission, only MPs like Ken Clarke who are retiring and those who represent Remain areas like David Lammy, Catherine West and Daniel Zeichner
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leaving in Camden, I may be wrong but I don't think it was wealthy novelists living in central London who won the referendum for Leave, welcome though your support was but working and lower middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil to you when you are in this vein, but I also know you have some personal issues relating to this (which explain your hysteria), so I shall pass up the chance of another argument, thanks very much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
4king hope so
Our opponents are ruthless, intelligent, and unscrupulous. Never underestimate them.
they are human beings, just like you
The side I oppose is usually better at politics than the side I favour.
Please let YouGov put Labour on 22%!! I'm sure the rumour isn't true but we can hope
Yesterday YouGov had Labour on 27%.
If Labour isn't on 22% it bloody well deserves to be. There's only Keir Starmer that is stopping the party becoming completely irrelevant..
And I say that as a Labour party member for thirty years.....
In recent years Labour has not shared the EU obsession of the Tories, and it might actually be to their benefit to say little at a time when Tory party divisions are returning to the surface. Perceptions of May's competence are likely to have taken a hit following the chaos of the last 36 hours.
Yes but in the opposite way you think - all the broadcast media show anger from around the Country that the Judges ruled against TM and the result will be increasing popularity for her and a bigger lead for the conservatives
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leavinger middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil tery much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
4king hope so
There are not that many MPs who are willing to go on such a kamikaze mission, only MPs like Ken Clarke who are retiring and those who represent Remain areas like David Lammy, Catherine West and Daniel Zeichner
It's the Lords
shoot the fuckers, grind the place to dust and lets have an elected upper house in Bootle to restore some balance
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leavinger middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil tery much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
4king hope so
There are not that many MPs who are willing to go on such a kamikaze mission, only MPs like Ken Clarke who are retiring and those who represent Remain areas like David Lammy, Catherine West and Daniel Zeichner
It's the Lords
shoot the fuckers, grind the place to dust and lets have an elected upper house in Bootle to restore some balance
I see people are coming round to my constitutional reform ideas.
@Richard Tyndall Did you not see the red top headlines today? To use USA terminology there is no pathway to a soft Brexit. I doubt the EU would agree to it anyway. People like Alastair and me.....we knew that the EU was a bit dysfunctional...but better to stay in and try and improve it. But's that all by the by. A hard Brexit it is....whatever people like you have to say about it.....
you had 40 years you didnt improve it for ordinary people
I come on this site to look at polls and bet and read some interesting leaders....and then as ever I get really caught up in nihilistic conversations with ideologues...which usually I am not. I have voted LD, Labour, Green and Animal Welfare groups,,,and would have supported a Cameron (or Osborne) led Tory party over a Corbyn Labour Party...but I never got that choice.
I doubt I have ever remotely influenced anther poster on this site to think in a different way in all the thousands of posts I have written over the years. My best post was maybe eight years ago putting an impassioned plea against the Israelis bombing Lebanon...but that has been well surpassed by events.
Anyway, I've decided...I will only say nice things to other posters (like I did with Morris earlier)...occasionally mischief make with the likes of Plato, and post without making political comment.
And on that note Alanbrooke... I like the photo you have included, and I like the fact that you do not put little yellow cartoon faces in your posts..
Please let YouGov put Labour on 22%!! I'm sure the rumour isn't true but we can hope
Yesterday YouGov had Labour on 27%.
If Labour isn't on 22% it bloody well deserves to be. There's only Keir Starmer that is stopping the party becoming completely irrelevant..
And I say that as a Labour party member for thirty years.....
The polls *might* still be overstating Labour's support to the same extent as they did before the election. Move 3% from Lab to Con and that would leave Labour on 24%.
I would find a figure like that credible, but nothing much lower. Labour still has a substantial voter coalition in England and Wales: public sector and transport workers, black and Muslim voters, metro left-libs, students, the Far Left, the very poor (working age people largely or wholly long-term benefit dependent,) and the surviving cohort of cultural/habit voters. And they've no real flanking opposition further to the Left, save (on some issues) for the Greens who only poll around 3-4% anyway.
There was some evidence of net churn from Lab to LD in that latest YouGov, but that's probably just the result of slightly more centre-Left and despairing Europhile voters travelling to Farron than more radical Libs being inspired to join forces with Corbyn, and I doubt it there are that many more 2015 Labour voters left for the yellows to mine (especially given that most of them likely still haven't forgiven the LDs for the Coalition.)
All in all, I think that Labour could be led into the next election by the reincarnation of Pol Pot and still bag around a quarter of the popular vote. A bit like the Tories, who haven't won less than 30% of the popular vote in any general election since 1832, their bedrock support is broad, deep and very, very persistent. Absent a wholly extraordinary combination of circumstances (as seen in Scotland, and even there Labour is still not far below 20%,) if the reds are to be ground down and replaced as the main Opposition then it's probably going to take a number of electoral cycles for this to occur.
I think it more likely that the polls are understating Labour rather than the reverse. In the past big polling leads for any party have failed to be borne out by subsequent actual election results.This proved true in 1966 - 1979 from a couple of months before Polling Day - 1983 - 1997 -and 2001. One of the contributors to last week's Polling Matters Podcast made a similar point.
I voted LEAVE and I want EEA or EFTA, or as close as.
Yes but you are a wealthy thriller writer leavinger middle class voters in the North and Midlands
Irrespective, it is the job of the government to find the exit that gets the support of 70% of the populations, not 51% of Leave voters.
You cannot assume that 100% of Remain voters want a soft Brexit. To many the option of the EEA or similar is tbe worst of both worlds.
They must be really, really stupid then.
The refered sadder but will have learned something.
Im not going to participate in a double betrayal just to please a contemptible minority who were prepared to surf on xenophobia.
I find it very hard to be civil tery much.
Your iear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
The
Your type lied and lied and lied again, you fanned the flames of racism and xenophobia, while ignoring the cries of the people as they protested, or you shouted them down as fruitcakes, bigots and losers.
So now this - your grand epochal hypocrisy - has come back to punch you in your stupid face. Good. Suck it up and savour the taste.
So now you want my and my type's help to effect your soft Brexit vision. Sorry but I'm going to have to pass.
lol. We won.
Not necessarily. We won the Referendum. It doesn't follow that the result will be implemented.
Given 421 constituencies voted Leave if it is not their will be a lot of MPs collecting their P45s at the next election
4king hope so
There are not that many MPs who are willing to go on such a kamikaze mission, only MPs like Ken Clarke who are retiring and those who represent Remain areas like David Lammy, Catherine West and Daniel Zeichner
It's the Lords
shoot the fuckers, grind the place to dust and lets have an elected upper house in Bootle to restore some balance
If they did block Article 50 and May called an election promising that I expect she would win a landslide without any problems
@Richard Tyndall Did you not see the red top headlines today? To use USA terminology there is no pathway to a soft Brexit. I doubt the EU would agree to it anyway. People like Alastair and me.....we knew that the EU was a bit dysfunctional...but better to stay in and try and improve it. But's that all by the by. A hard Brexit it is....whatever people like you have to say about it.....
you had 40 years you didnt improve it for ordinary people
I come on this site to look at polls and bet and read some interesting leaders....and then as ever I get really caught up in nihilistic conversations with ideologues...which usually I am not. I have voted LD, Labour, Green and Animal Welfare groups,,,and would have supported a Cameron (or Osborne) led Tory party over a Corbyn Labour Party...but I never got that choice.
I doubt I have ever remotely influenced anther poster on this site to think in a different way in all the thousands of posts I have written over the years. My best post was maybe eight years ago putting an impassioned plea against the Israelis bombing Lebanon...but that has been well surpassed by events.
Anyway, I've decided...I will only say nice things to other posters (like I did with Morris earlier)...occasionally mischief make with the likes of Plato, and post without making political comment.
And on that note Alanbrooke... I like the photo you have included, and I like the fact that you do not put little yellow cartoon faces in your posts..
Oh come on tyson, when youre not going on about race youre a fun poster we all need to lighten up a bit
apart from Meeksie who just needs a good seeing to
Please let YouGov put Labour on 22%!! I'm sure the rumour isn't true but we can hope
Yesterday YouGov had Labour on 27%.
If Labour isn't on 22% it bloody well deserves to be. There's only Keir Starmer that is stopping the party becoming completely irrelevant..
And I say that as a Labour party member for thirty years.....
The polls *might* still be overstating Labour's support to the same extent as they did before the election. Move 3% from Lab to Con and that would leave Labour on 24%.
I would find a figure like that credible, but nothing much lower. Labour still has a substantial voter coalition in England and Wales: public sector and transport workers, black and Muslim voters, metro left-libs, students, the Far Left, the very poor (working age people largely or wholly long-term benefit dependent,) and the surviving cohort of cultural/habit voters. And they've no real flanking opposition further to the Left, save (on some issues) for the Greens who only poll around 3-4% anyway.
There was some evidence of net churn from Lab to LD in that latest YouGov, but that's probably just the result of slightly more centre-Left and despairing Europhile voters travelling to Farron than more radical Libs being inspired to join forces with Corbyn, and I doubt it there are that many more 2015 Labour voters left for the yellows to mine (especially given that most of them likely still haven't forgiven the LDs for the Coalition.)
All in all, I think that Labour could be led into the next election by the reincarnation of Pol Pot and still bag around a quarter of the popular vote. A bit like the Tories, who haven't won less than 30% of the popular vote in any general election since 1832, their bedrock support is broad, deep and very, very persistent. Absent a wholly extraordinary combination of circumstances (as seen in Scotland, and even there Labour is still not far below 20%,) if the reds are to be ground down and replaced as the main Opposition then it's probably going to take a number of electoral cycles for this to occur.
I think it more likely that the polls are understating Labour rather than the reverse. In the past big polling leads for any party have failed to be borne out by subsequent actual election results.This proved true in 1966 - 1979 from a couple of months before Polling Day - 1983 - 1997 -and 2001. One of the contributors to last week's Polling Matters Podcast made a similar point.
Please let YouGov put Labour on 22%!! I'm sure the rumour isn't true but we can hope
Yesterday YouGov had Labour on 27%.
If Labour isn't on 22% it bloody well deserves to be. There's only Keir Starmer that is stopping the party becoming completely irrelevant..
And I say that as a Labour party member for thirty years.....
In recent years Labour has not shared the EU obsession of the Tories, and it might actually be to their benefit to say little at a time when Tory party divisions are returning to the surface. Perceptions of May's competence are likely to have taken a hit following the chaos of the last 36 hours.
Yes but in the opposite way you think - all the broadcast media show anger from around the Country that the Judges ruled against TM and the result will be increasing popularity for her and a bigger lead for the conservatives
I don't think the electorate is as obsessed with Brexit as you might care to believe. Most are sick of it.
Comments
I've heard again and again about how promises like £350 million a week for the NHS can't be seen like manifesto promises because they weren't an alternative Government. But you're saying they were?
Once it is generally appreciated that is a really stupid idea, we can move on. The country will be poorer, meaner and sadder but will have learned something.
Well, you can't actually. But at east they now know what you really feel about them!
My one caveat is that I really don't know how anyone can justifiably claim another person's view or vote is stupid. To know that would require perfect knowledge of that 'stupid' voters private preferences and priorities. Different is not necessarily stupid.
You can't fight a referendum campaign with xenophobia then walk away whistling as if it isn't your problem.
https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/794645749757841408
At best that will lead to calls for us to withdraw from whatever EEA-style approach is decided upon: perhaps because of monies being paid in, and/or the fact we are still in 'Europe' in some form. At medium it will lead to sustained political unrest (as good as they may be for betting opportunities). At worst there might be real social schisms "they aren't listening to us / they cheated us!"
There's another point: there's been a great trend of politicians, the media and the public blaming the EU for things that were at best tangential to the EU. This will continue if we are in the EEA.
Having said that, nothing has changed my mind from Quexit, whether that is Hard or Semi-soft.
Edit: whatever!=withdraw
I don't know when they finally woke up but I see tonight that Ladbrokes have the Mormon State on offer at 2/7 with Hills going even shorter at 1/4. It just goes to show there are bargains to be had, even at this late stage in the proceedings, but it certainly helps to have any number of pairs of eyes seeking them out.
The rest of us have to clear up the mess. But that can't start until the victory has been honoured in the spirit that it was won.
since the vote you've done nothing but throw oil on the fire
if you want to see what damages society look at your own behaviour
We voted for Brexit...there is fuck all we can do about it now. We are not going to get a deal anyway- 27 EU countries on one side and Brexit notrights on t'other. No.
So let's do a hard Brexit quickly..see how we go...and then do something different in the future if we have to. Brexit will not be as bad as the 2008 banking crash. It will certainly not be as difficult as a war, or maybe even the 1981 recession. People like me have lost that European dream...but maybe that is all it was, and Europe will come crashing down soon enough.
So, let's stop fucking around with the hard/soft Brexit bullshit. It's becoming a torture..a death by a thousand cuts and a thousand Guardian columnists...
The middle 'sensible shrugging majority' are also, by their nature, quieter and less troublesome.
(*) And the continuum may not be a continuous gradient.
And I say that as a Labour party member for thirty years.....
you wouldnt actually take one yourself but would pay to dump one on TykeJohnno
you have principles, but for other people
It'll lose.
First, seanT...you need to buy a dictionary and read what a narcissist is...I have only ever seen Alastair try and discuss policy here...we don't really hear who he is shagging, what he is drinking and how wonderful his life is......
Second, and more importantly he is right, 100% right. Theresa May knows this, Keir Starmer knows this and Alastair knows this.
Brexit was won on immigration...it was ugly, nihilistic and horrible, populist. xenophobic and fascist...but played on the Goebbels gameplan. So good one. It won.
Brexit has unleashed the populist demons....it's the will of the people..so live with it.
There will not be a soft Brexit...the bigger loser will be London...
And an important point is the noisiness of the complainants. And the anti-EU folks - and especially the ant-immigration folks - are very noisy indeed. Hence the referendum.
As for the rest youre simply projecting your insecurities on other people
@Richard Tyndall
Did you not see the red top headlines today? To use USA terminology there is no pathway to a soft Brexit. I doubt the EU would agree to it anyway.
People like Alastair and me.....we knew that the EU was a bit dysfunctional...but better to stay in and try and improve it. But's that all by the by. A hard Brexit it is....whatever people like you have to say about it.....
I would find a figure like that credible, but nothing much lower. Labour still has a substantial voter coalition in England and Wales: public sector and transport workers, black and Muslim voters, metro left-libs, students, the Far Left, the very poor (working age people largely or wholly long-term benefit dependent,) and the surviving cohort of cultural/habit voters. And they've no real flanking opposition further to the Left, save (on some issues) for the Greens who only poll around 3-4% anyway.
There was some evidence of net churn from Lab to LD in that latest YouGov, but that's probably just the result of slightly more centre-Left and despairing Europhile voters travelling to Farron than more radical Libs being inspired to join forces with Corbyn, and I doubt it there are that many more 2015 Labour voters left for the yellows to mine (especially given that most of them likely still haven't forgiven the LDs for the Coalition.)
All in all, I think that Labour could be led into the next election by the reincarnation of Pol Pot and still bag around a quarter of the popular vote. A bit like the Tories, who haven't won less than 30% of the popular vote in any general election since 1832, their bedrock support is broad, deep and very, very persistent. Absent a wholly extraordinary combination of circumstances (as seen in Scotland, and even there Labour is still not far below 20%,) if the reds are to be ground down and replaced as the main Opposition then it's probably going to take a number of electoral cycles for this to occur.
They'd have said, reasonably enough, that whenever the British had a chance to vote they voted against the EU because they disliked the entire enterprise, and it was time to they had their say on the whole thing.
An in/out referendum under Labour would have been harder to win than Cameron's referendum. The Tories would have been stronger on Out if they hadn't been in government, and they'd have united the entire axis of people narked off with New Labour.
John Major *might* have been able to win an in/out referendum, depending how Labour had played it, but it wouldn't have been a slam-dunk. Referendums are always a little bit random and there's no cause so popular it's guaranteed a win, and the EU has never been popular.
But mainly the racism.
And on that bombshell, goodnight everyone.
(*) My view: a Turkey that passed all the hoops and hurdles to join (e.g. the AC) would be a very different Turkey politically. Which is one reason why progress to the AC has been so slow.
most turks are probably ethnic greeks by dna
its religion and cultures
race is irrelevant
The leader of the Liberal Democrat Party, Vladimir Zhirinovsky, gives his view on Donald J. Trump and “weak, vicious” Hillary Clinton.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/794658193104314372
What we do now is a different question entirely.
Exclusive: The Democratic National Committee Has Told the FBI It Found Evidence Its HQ Was Bugged
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/11/dnc-told-fbi-it-may-have-been-bugged
So, I'm in the cinema watching a film and it dawned on me what I'm going to write about on Sunday, and it features pubic lice.
PUBIC lice, yes PUBIC
You're getting a thread that discusses pubic lice.
shoot the fuckers, grind the place to dust and lets have an elected upper house in Bootle to restore some balance
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2016
THE SNP IS RIGHT ON THIS.
I doubt I have ever remotely influenced anther poster on this site to think in a different way in all the thousands of posts I have written over the years. My best post was maybe eight years ago putting an impassioned plea against the Israelis bombing Lebanon...but that has been well surpassed by events.
Anyway, I've decided...I will only say nice things to other posters (like I did with Morris earlier)...occasionally mischief make with the likes of Plato, and post without making political comment.
And on that note Alanbrooke... I like the photo you have included, and I like the fact that you do not put little yellow cartoon faces in your posts..
apart from Meeksie who just needs a good seeing to
Yeahbut: Corbyn.
Also the Tories (yes the Tories) won a seat of the SNP and a seat off the Lib Dems last night
new thread