It's odd: when the US and USSR/Russia design tech to do the same job, the USSR versions always seem to *look* better, even if they're less capable. The B1B / TU160 and the Shuttle/Buran being other examples.
errr arent the russian versions just inferior copies of the US ones ?
In some cases, yes. But mostly it's just convergent design. If you envisage the same role, then the fundamental laws of physics mean you end up with similar designs. And if the Russians had something, the US would want to design something similar so they had the same capability. And vice versa.
The Buran is a classic example: the Russians saw the military role the US wanted to use it for, and had to compete. But their solution, whilst looking similar because of the similar roles, was actually much more flexible. For instance, the entire rocket stack could be used without the orbiter (google 'Energia'), and the Thermal Protection System was allegedly far superior.
The US and USSR copied each other: the Shuttle itself is based somewhat on lifting body technology, which the Americans independently evolved from initial Russian research.
I'd also argue the TU160 is superior to the B1B in terms of aerodynamics and structure; but the B1B is far better in what really counts: avionics. That's where the Russians really failed: computers.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
What is a tragedy (of our own making) is the split with our European friends and colleagues, who can blame the Scots for trying to leave us after we did that?
Mr. Glenn, don't forget, the Brussels bureaucracy wants to be as big a pain in the arse to the UK as possible.
Although it's entirely theoretical at this stage, of course.
Sometimes a bit of empathy helps.....look at it from the point of view of the EU. They cannot under any circumstances make Brexit good for Britain. It is not in their interests. They are willing to take a hit on trade knowing that the integrity and continuation of the EU is a much bigger prize. That is a very valid perspective and one that almost exclusively all the senior politicians in the EU subscribe to.
We cannot blame them or criticise them for acting in what they perceive as their collective, national self interests. We have to accept that we are not going to get a good deal from Europe and live with it. After all that is what we voted for.
If you believe that's the case, then there is little point in wringing out the negotiations. We should go for Quick Brexit and get the damage over and done with.
Sadly you are probably right. There are other remainers here like FoxinUK who think the same, go for a quick Brexit, take a hit and then move from there.
If last weeks summit was anything to go by with May given the humiliating 5 minute midnight slot, the exit talks are going to be tortuous and lead us nowhere.
But what I find really irritating is that people criticise the EU for acting in their interests. If they kicked us out of the EU, I could understand the anger and irritation. But they didn't. This is something we the UK imposed on them and they are now responding in a perfectly reasonable and rational way.
And stop the EU hatred...the Eurcocrats/ Brussels/ gravy train/ ....it's tiresome and counterproductive and got us into this stupid, self inflicted mess in the first place.
.......It is quite possible that a few years later there can be a more constructive relationship with Europe can be wrought by an alternative government, but for now the headbangers must have their way.
Anything is possible. But even when under Labour we had a very pro-EU Govt there was little progress on issues that we wanted tackling (such as a full single market in services) and the surrendering of part of our rebate for the promise of major CAP reform was one of the worst examples of getting royally scre*ed by the EU.
Which is why we have to see what Hard Brexit is like before we can appreciate as a country the many benefits of a constructive relationship with the EU.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
May will most likely say EU citizens can still come to the UK but only with a job offer, something even most Scots will support given almost 40% voted Leave. Hardly much of a basis for a second indyref indeed it is likely to annoy ultra hard BREXITeers as much as diehard EUphiles
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
What is a tragedy (of our own making) is the split with our European friends and colleagues, who can blame the Scots for trying to leave us after we did that?
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
iScotland would start with a collosal deficit but it's hardly a basket case. Give it twenty years and a couple of surprise Conservative wins and it would be another small Scandinavian country. And Single Market status on the island of Britain would attractive to FDI. But the answer to your question is " to spite us. "
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
May will most likely say EU citizens can still come to the UK but only with a job offer, something even most Scots will support given almost 40% voted Leave. Hardly much of a basis for a second indyref indeed it is likely to annoy ultra hard BREXITeers as much as diehard EUphiles
I hope you are right. I fear Frankenstein's Cat is out of the Bag on immigration though.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
iScotland would start with a collosal deficit but it's hardly a basket case. Give it twenty years and a couple of surprise Conservative wins and it would be another small Scandinavian country. And Single Market status on the island of Britain would attractive to FDI. But the answer to your question is " to spite us. "
LOL
after 20 years it would be profitable. Half the population would have emigated - probably to England.
As an aside from below: the US Shuttle was the end of a long process that was meant to produce a fully-reusable orbital rocket system. In the end a series of tortuous compromises led to the deeply flawed STS.
The Russians saw the military uses the US envisaged for the Shuttle, and had to counter it. This meant the ability to pick up satellites from orbit (allegedly for repair, but an original idea was to be able to 'steal' foreign satellites). The US military also needed significant cross-range capability for polar orbits. (*)
The Russians were not interested in reusability, as they decided it was not economic (and were proven right!) But if you want to recover a satellite from orbit, then you need the ability to return. The ability to return cargo led to the body shape and size; the cross-range capability led to the similarly-shaped wings.
But outside those constraints, they were very different systems.
(*) They wanted to be able to return to the launch site after one orbit. But in the meantime the Earth will have rotated beneath it, meaning it needed to be able to glide a few hundred miles westwards. This was rarely (never?) used, and was the design constraint that most harmed the Shuttle design.
'Seems PB is splitting nicely in two on this one. Some of us think LHR will be the only salient issue and others think Liberals will manage to make it about Brexit.'
Any idea what the Lib Dems policy is to resolve the airport capacity issue ?
Or have they adopted the Green party anti business no airport expansion policy ?
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
iScotland would start with a collosal deficit but it's hardly a basket case. Give it twenty years and a couple of surprise Conservative wins and it would be another small Scandinavian country. And Single Market status on the island of Britain would attractive to FDI. But the answer to your question is " to spite us. "
Surely if the EU said 'Non' to an iScotland then the game is up for Europe?
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
Only Turkey and Morocco have had applications to join declined. The EU is nothing if not expansionist.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
iScotland would start with a collosal deficit but it's hardly a basket case. Give it twenty years and a couple of surprise Conservative wins and it would be another small Scandinavian country. And Single Market status on the island of Britain would attractive to FDI. But the answer to your question is " to spite us. "
Surely if the EU said 'Non' to an iScotland then the game is up for Europe?
the EU wouldnt say non but Oui with conditions which are unworkable
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
May will most likely say EU citizens can still come to the UK but only with a job offer, something even most Scots will support given almost 40% voted Leave. Hardly much of a basis for a second indyref indeed it is likely to annoy ultra hard BREXITeers as much as diehard EUphiles
I hope you are right. I fear Frankenstein's Cat is out of the Bag on immigration though.
Given May's statement in recent days saying she wants a free trade deal with the EU and earlier No 10 statements ruling out a points system in favour of a job offer requirement, that will almost certainly be the 'immigration control' she will impose
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
Only Turkey and Morocco have had applications to join declined. The EU is nothing if not expansionist.
we'd like your oil and fish and you must join the euro. You cant have a rebate, you need to pay more anyway and your financial sector better sign up to these new rules.
'Seems PB is splitting nicely in two on this one. Some of us think LHR will be the only salient issue and others think Liberals will manage to make it about Brexit.'
Any idea what the Lib Dems policy is to resolve the airport capacity issue ?
Or have they adopted the Green party anti business no airport expansion policy ?
As far as I know the policy is basically:
“no net increase in runways across the UK as a whole”.
In 2014 their conference debated the issue and this one detail of the Economy paper:
"Developing a strategic airports policy in the light of the Davies review, while remaining opposed to any expansion of Heathrow, Stansted, Gatwick or any new airport in the Thames Estuary, and ensuring no net increase in runways across the UK as a whole."
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
What is a tragedy (of our own making) is the split with our European friends and colleagues, who can blame the Scots for trying to leave us after we did that?
what did we do ?
We voted to leave the EU in an unprecedented act of national self-harm, for spurious, unclear, undeliverable reasons.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
Only Turkey and Morocco have had applications to join declined. The EU is nothing if not expansionist.
we'd like your oil and fish and you must join the euro. You cant have a rebate, you need to pay more anyway and your financial sector better sign up to these new rules.
I'm not so convinced they would be made to join the Euro. Some fudge could be made around the fact they are in a currency area with rest of UK or something along those lines.
Mr. Glenn, don't forget, the Brussels bureaucracy wants to be as big a pain in the arse to the UK as possible.
Although it's entirely theoretical at this stage, of course.
Sometimes a bit of empathy helps.....look at it from the point of view of the EU. They cannot under any circumstances make Brexit good for Britain. It is not in their interests. They are willing to take a hit on trade knowing that the integrity and continuation of the EU is a much bigger prize. That is a very valid perspective and one that almost exclusively all the senior politicians in the EU subscribe to.
We cannot blame them or criticise them for acting in what they perceive as their collective, national self interests. We have to accept that we are not going to get a good deal from Europe and live with it. After all that is what we voted for.
If you believe that's the case, then there is little point in wringing out the negotiations. We should go for Quick Brexit and get the damage over and done with.
Sadly you are probably right. There are other remainers here like FoxinUK who think the same, go for a quick Brexit, take a hit and then move from there.
If last weeks summit was anything to go by with May given the humiliating 5 minute midnight slot, the exit talks are going to be tortuous and lead us nowhere.
But what I find really irritating is that people criticise the EU for acting in their interests. If they kicked us out of the EU, I could understand the anger and irritation. But they didn't. This is something we the UK imposed on them and they are now responding in a perfectly reasonable and rational way.
And stop the EU hatred...the Eurcocrats/ Brussels/ gravy train/ ....it's tiresome and counterproductive and got us into this stupid, self inflicted mess in the first place.
.......It is quite possible that a few years later there can be a more constructive relationship with Europe can be wrought by an alternative government, but for now the headbangers must have their way.
Anything is possible. But even when under Labour we had a very pro-EU Govt there was little progress on issues that we wanted tackling (such as a full single market in services) and the surrendering of part of our rebate for the promise of major CAP reform was one of the worst examples of getting royally scre*ed by the EU.
Which is why we have to see what Hard Brexit is like before we can appreciate as a country the many benefits of a constructive relationship with the EU.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
What is a tragedy (of our own making) is the split with our European friends and colleagues, who can blame the Scots for trying to leave us after we did that?
what did we do ?
We voted to leave the EU in an unprecedented act of national self-harm, for spurious, unclear, undeliverable reasons.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
Only Turkey and Morocco have had applications to join declined. The EU is nothing if not expansionist.
we'd like your oil and fish and you must join the euro. You cant have a rebate, you need to pay more anyway and your financial sector better sign up to these new rules.
I'm not so convinced they would be made to join the Euro. Some fudge could be made around the fact they are in a currency area with rest of UK or something along those lines.
they would have to give some vague commitment, they couldnt join in ant case as the deficit at 9% is so far removed from 3% they could only make it after 20 years of real austerity
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
May will most likely say EU citizens can still come to the UK but only with a job offer, something even most Scots will support given almost 40% voted Leave. Hardly much of a basis for a second indyref indeed it is likely to annoy ultra hard BREXITeers as much as diehard EUphiles
I hope you are right. I fear Frankenstein's Cat is out of the Bag on immigration though.
Given May's statement in recent days saying she wants a free trade deal with the EU and earlier No 10 statements ruling out a points system in favour of a job offer requirement, that will almost certainly be the 'immigration control' she will impose
I hope you are right. But that's not the referendum we had. And May reaffirmed the ' Tens of Thousands ' net migration pledge. That's before we get to what a Job Offer is. An email ? A bit of head note paper ? 6 days ? 6 weeks ? 6 months ? I hear the arguments about it being about control not numbers. However after that campaign I'm not convinced.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
Only Turkey and Morocco have had applications to join declined. The EU is nothing if not expansionist.
we'd like your oil and fish and you must join the euro. You cant have a rebate, you need to pay more anyway and your financial sector better sign up to these new rules.
I'm not so convinced they would be made to join the Euro. Some fudge could be made around the fact they are in a currency area with rest of UK or something along those lines.
I'm sure Scotland will be forced to join the Euro just like Sweden is.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
What is a tragedy (of our own making) is the split with our European friends and colleagues, who can blame the Scots for trying to leave us after we did that?
what did we do ?
We voted to leave the EU in an unprecedented act of national self-harm, for spurious, unclear, undeliverable reasons.
Only in your opinion, the majority of voters dont agree with you.
The best place to hide £350mn a week is the money-sponge NHS. It won't make the blindest bit of difference to people's experiences. It should be spent (or not-taxed) on policies with long term economic benefit, then the NHS will benefit as a ship on a rising tide.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
'Seems PB is splitting nicely in two on this one. Some of us think LHR will be the only salient issue and others think Liberals will manage to make it about Brexit.'
Any idea what the Lib Dems policy is to resolve the airport capacity issue ?
Or have they adopted the Green party anti business no airport expansion policy ?
No the anti-business position is held by the Brexiteers who want us to withdraw from the single market.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
What is a tragedy (of our own making) is the split with our European friends and colleagues, who can blame the Scots for trying to leave us after we did that?
what did we do ?
We voted to leave the EU in an unprecedented act of national self-harm, for spurious, unclear, undeliverable reasons.
Only in your opinion, the majority of voters dont agree with you.
Thankfully people like Jobabob helped in obtaining a majority for Leave.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
The best place to hide £350mn a week is the money-sponge NHS. It won't make the blindest bit of difference to people's experiences. It should be spent (or not-taxed) on policies with long term economic benefit, then the NHS will benefit as a ship on a rising tide.
I completely agree. As I suspect would nearly all of the senior Tories photographed in front of the pledge on unsubtly Labour red backgrounds. But they were lying to get people's votes. Which wouldn't have been a problem except they won.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
May will most likely say EU citizens can still come to the UK but only with a job offer, something even most Scots will support given almost 40% voted Leave. Hardly much of a basis for a second indyref indeed it is likely to annoy ultra hard BREXITeers as much as diehard EUphiles
I hope you are right. I fear Frankenstein's Cat is out of the Bag on immigration though.
Given May's statement in recent days saying she wants a free trade deal with the EU and earlier No 10 statements ruling out a points system in favour of a job offer requirement, that will almost certainly be the 'immigration control' she will impose
I hope you are right. But that's not the referendum we had. And May reaffirmed the ' Tens of Thousands ' net migration pledge. That's before we get to what a Job Offer is. An email ? A bit of head note paper ? 6 days ? 6 weeks ? 6 months ? I hear the arguments about it being about control not numbers. However after that campaign I'm not convinced.
That is what No 10 told the Mail would be the migration control imposed not a points system whether it works or not is another matter
What a thoroughly dishonest thread header from Mr Meeks.
Whatever happens to the NHS either this winter or next would not have been affected one jot by whether we voted for Brexit or not. Not one extra penny would be available as he well knows because even if Article 50 had been triggered the day after the vote we would still be in the EU until at least June 2018.
That's not entirely true as the drop in the value of the pound will cost the NHS, to the extent that it has to pay for things with hard currency. I know their costs are mostly labour but they also have to buy medicines and MRI machines and things.
If border controls are not necessary on the Foyle they are not necessary on the Tweed
Simplistic doesn't quite cover it.
If Scotland is to have free movement of people from the EU, but E&W isn't - how exactly is that to be policed?
I think you need to make an argument that doesn't apply to Ireland too. Otherwise you're like a dog chasing her tail.
glw had a better go at it.
Ireland is not in Schengen.
Scotland as a new member would be in Schengen.
Do you think it beyond the wit of Brussels Man to fudge this point?
It is a point of faith that iScotland would be on the worst possible terms with the EU. That simultaneously Scotland would be bankrupt and making huge net contribution to the EU.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
What is a tragedy (of our own making) is the split with our European friends and colleagues, who can blame the Scots for trying to leave us after we did that?
what did we do ?
We voted to leave the EU in an unprecedented act of national self-harm, for spurious, unclear, undeliverable reasons.
Only in your opinion, the majority of voters dont agree with you.
Thankfully people like Jobabob helped in obtaining a majority for Leave.
It would help if remoaners could append to each post a note of the hours they put in campaigning for remain in the run up to June 23. Posting on here does not count as campaigning.
The best place to hide £350mn a week is the money-sponge NHS. It won't make the blindest bit of difference to people's experiences. It should be spent (or not-taxed) on policies with long term economic benefit, then the NHS will benefit as a ship on a rising tide.
I completely agree. As I suspect would nearly all of the senior Tories photographed in front of the pledge on unsubtly Labour red backgrounds. But they were lying to get people's votes. Which wouldn't have been a problem except they won.
they were lying to get people's votes.
and Leave werent ?
really if you want to prissy around on the moral high ground best not do it stood in a swamp
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
iScotland would start with a collosal deficit but it's hardly a basket case. Give it twenty years and a couple of surprise Conservative wins and it would be another small Scandinavian country. And Single Market status on the island of Britain would attractive to FDI. But the answer to your question is " to spite us. "
Surely if the EU said 'Non' to an iScotland then the game is up for Europe?
the EU wouldnt say non but Oui with conditions which are unworkable
will be open arms and a poke in the eye to Westminster for sure
The best place to hide £350mn a week is the money-sponge NHS. It won't make the blindest bit of difference to people's experiences. It should be spent (or not-taxed) on policies with long term economic benefit, then the NHS will benefit as a ship on a rising tide.
I completely agree. As I suspect would nearly all of the senior Tories photographed in front of the pledge on unsubtly Labour red backgrounds. But they were lying to get people's votes. Which wouldn't have been a problem except they won.
they were lying to get people's votes.
and Leave werent ?
If you're going to lie to get people's votes the trick is not to win. As the Lib Dems found out, it can be deadly.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
Scotland is hardly a basket case.
yeah right, nor is Northern Ireland
What makes you think Scotland is a basket case Alan, hav eyou seen an independent budget and revenues etc or are you basing your opinion on a failed UK budget and trying to apply those fake / very bad debt numbers to a completely different independent Scotland. Or perhaps you have a crystal ball.
Someone complained to Mike about me calling 'Brexiteers, Juncker's fifth columnists' in a recent thread header.
Just imagine if I hadn't cut out this from the original version
'Within a few years time, Leavers may well be spoken by their fellow countrymen in the same breath as Kim Philby, Judas, Brutus, Vidkun Quisling, Benedict Arnold, and Ephialtes of Trachis'
Many people would think twice before calling someone of Jewish descent a "Quisling", but evidently not Farage.
Zac will try very hard, and I think will largely succeed, in framing the by-election as 'a vote for me is a vote against Heathrow expansion'. The LibDems seem likely to try to make it a vote on Theresa May's Brexit policy, but that doesn't actually make much sense, given that Theresa May and indeed her party are not on the ballot paper.
In any case, in Richmond Heathrow trumps Brexit.
It isn't obvious why people would vote FOR Zac. He's done the honourable thing by resigning, but you don't vote in favour of a resignation that has already happened. Resigning strengthens Mr Goldsmith's cause of keeping the Government honest on Heathrow? I doubt anyone would think that. And by the way is he still a Conservative and a member of the party that is ploughing on regardless with the Heathrow expansion?
Maybe people will vote for a man that they think is decent and honourable, as shown by his resignation. Will that be enough to keep the seat?
The best place to hide £350mn a week is the money-sponge NHS. It won't make the blindest bit of difference to people's experiences. It should be spent (or not-taxed) on policies with long term economic benefit, then the NHS will benefit as a ship on a rising tide.
I completely agree. As I suspect would nearly all of the senior Tories photographed in front of the pledge on unsubtly Labour red backgrounds. But they were lying to get people's votes. Which wouldn't have been a problem except they won.
The suggestion that they would spend the (indisputable) Brexit dividend on the NHS is much like saying £4,300 per household (in GDP terms). It's a rather ham-fisted way of trying to make the figures seem like something real in people's minds. I hold no brief for Vote Leave - they were crap as I said repeatedly at the time. But trying to frame this as a manifesto commitment (also a lie) is simply silly, especially as I suspect those making the arguments would actually be horrified if Vote Leave's campaign lines WERE to be used en masse as a manifesto that had been given a mandate by the British people.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
iScotland would start with a collosal deficit but it's hardly a basket case. Give it twenty years and a couple of surprise Conservative wins and it would be another small Scandinavian country. And Single Market status on the island of Britain would attractive to FDI. But the answer to your question is " to spite us. "
Surely if the EU said 'Non' to an iScotland then the game is up for Europe?
the EU wouldnt say non but Oui with conditions which are unworkable
will be open arms and a poke in the eye to Westminster for sure
I'm reminded of the great deal France offered Scotland at the time of Mary Queen of Scots
"A marriage treaty was signed with the Scots, which provided that Scotland and France should eventually be united under Mary and Francis as one kingdom. There were also secret agreements, which the youthful and inexperienced Mary signed, that would have made Scotland a mere adjunct of France."
“no net increase in runways across the UK as a whole”.
In 2014 their conference debated the issue and this one detail of the Economy paper:
"Developing a strategic airports policy in the light of the Davies review, while remaining opposed to any expansion of Heathrow, Stansted, Gatwick or any new airport in the Thames Estuary, and ensuring no net increase in runways across the UK as a whole."
Brilliant,that way they can oppose every airport expansion & grab some Green votes back as the anti business party.
That doesn't strike me as HMG doing the thinking (much as I'd like to believe otherwise) it strikes me as Mark Carney, the WTO and whomever else on the Davos circuit doing a lot of thinking and coming up with 'alternatives' that can enmesh Britain into their system without the expediency of Britain's EU membership. In fact I'm not sure it can be read any other way - the UK Government is pointedly not mentioned.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
Scotland is hardly a basket case.
yeah right, nor is Northern Ireland
What makes you think Scotland is a basket case Alan, hav eyou seen an independent budget and revenues etc or are you basing your opinion on a failed UK budget and trying to apply those fake / very bad debt numbers to a completely different independent Scotland. Or perhaps you have a crystal ball.
I'm basing it one wee Mrs McTurnips dash away from fiscal autonomy.
''I still think it will be Soft Brexit with a hard name.''
I disagree. Voters want to control immigration, because they can see that whoever controls this has power over society. Immigration changes countries very radically, and in a very short time.
Look at the US. America has changed vastly in the last 30 years, and it will keep changing at a very fast speed if Hillary Clinton gets in.
Now, whether you think that change is good or bad, or mixed, is up to you, but it can;t be denied that the people who control the flow have huge power.
British voters want that power, and I think Theresa May knows this. She will give it to them.
I'm reminded of the great deal France offered Scotland at the time of Mary Queen of Scots
"A marriage treaty was signed with the Scots, which provided that Scotland and France should eventually be united under Mary and Francis as one kingdom. There were also secret agreements, which the youthful and inexperienced Mary signed, that would have made Scotland a mere adjunct of France."
buff up yer erchie malc it's gonna hurt :-)
Just think:
But for the House-of-Stuart the Anglo-Norse and the remaining Celts may have buried the Brian O'Boru mistake and - who knows - turned his kingdom into a decent cricketing nation. At least his bigoted forefathers kicked the Scots out; poor Picts has to pick up the pieces though...!
I'm reminded of the great deal France offered Scotland at the time of Mary Queen of Scots
"A marriage treaty was signed with the Scots, which provided that Scotland and France should eventually be united under Mary and Francis as one kingdom. There were also secret agreements, which the youthful and inexperienced Mary signed, that would have made Scotland a mere adjunct of France."
buff up yer erchie malc it's gonna hurt :-)
Just think:
But for the House-of-Stuart the Anglo-Norse and the remaining Celts may have buried the Brian O'Boru mistake and - who knows - turned his kingdom into a decent cricketing nation. At least they kicked the Scots out; poor Picts has to pick up the pieces though...!
'What makes you think Scotland is a basket case Alan,'
Would you care to tell which figures are incorrect in this article ?
Scotland's a bigger economic basket case than Greece | Daily Mail ... www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article.../Scotland-s-bigger-economic-basket-case-Greece.ht... Scotland is a bigger economic basket case than Greece: Country would have to double basic ... Published: 19:18 EST, 12 October 2016 | Updated: 02:09 EST, 13 October 2016
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
Scotland is hardly a basket case.
yeah right, nor is Northern Ireland
What makes you think Scotland is a basket case Alan, hav eyou seen an independent budget and revenues etc or are you basing your opinion on a failed UK budget and trying to apply those fake / very bad debt numbers to a completely different independent Scotland. Or perhaps you have a crystal ball.
I'm basing it one wee Mrs McTurnips dash away from fiscal autonomy.
Paul Waugh making some interesting observations......Zac won't have access to the Conservative database in his constituency, as he's not standing as a Conservative.....the Lib Dems on the other hand......
Very good point, which could prove critical to his chances as this information could be worth up to 10% of his would-be vote, maybe more in a by-election where supporters need to be gee'd up to get them to vote.
You dont think hes got a copy!!
You think he's going to break data protection laws?
I say again " you dont think he has a copy?"
Where does he stand if the local party decided to unofficially help him ? What about if they decide to officially help him (ie. it is sanctioned by the local committee) since they don't have their own official candidate ? In either case he would not have to access the information himself, literature could be sent or doors knocked on his behalf.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
Only Turkey and Morocco have had applications to join declined. The EU is nothing if not expansionist.
we'd like your oil and fish and you must join the euro. You cant have a rebate, you need to pay more anyway and your financial sector better sign up to these new rules.
I'm not so convinced they would be made to join the Euro. Some fudge could be made around the fact they are in a currency area with rest of UK or something along those lines.
they would have to give some vague commitment, they couldnt join in ant case as the deficit at 9% is so far removed from 3% they could only make it after 20 years of real austerity
Greece without sunshine
Scotland does not have a deficit , it is a UK only budget and UK deficit and no-one has any clue what an independent Scotland's revenue or budget would look like.
'What makes you think Scotland is a basket case Alan,'
Would you care to tell which figures are incorrect in this article ?
Scotland's a bigger economic basket case than Greece | Daily Mail ... www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article.../Scotland-s-bigger-economic-basket-case-Greece.ht... Scotland is a bigger economic basket case than Greece: Country would have to double basic ... Published: 19:18 EST, 12 October 2016 | Updated: 02:09 EST, 13 October 2016
Now the really zoonies are out , that well known economic expert journal the Daily Heil , what an absolute balloon.
@Jobabob The end of the British political Union would be a once in several centuries global tragedy. But for the first time in my life I wouldn't blame them. I don't want them to go but it's a truly grim situation. Incidentally I see the Scottish Greens have said they'll vote for the #indyref2 bill " when " it's presented.
As actual Brexit makes independence much harder for Scotland there must be a real chance Sturgeon will cut and run even if the polling hasn't shifted ( which it hasn't todate. )
why do you think the EU wants another small country basket case to fk the place up even more ?
iScotland would start with a collosal deficit but it's hardly a basket case. Give it twenty years and a couple of surprise Conservative wins and it would be another small Scandinavian country. And Single Market status on the island of Britain would attractive to FDI. But the answer to your question is " to spite us. "
Surely if the EU said 'Non' to an iScotland then the game is up for Europe?
the EU wouldnt say non but Oui with conditions which are unworkable
will be open arms and a poke in the eye to Westminster for sure
I'm reminded of the great deal France offered Scotland at the time of Mary Queen of Scots
"A marriage treaty was signed with the Scots, which provided that Scotland and France should eventually be united under Mary and Francis as one kingdom. There were also secret agreements, which the youthful and inexperienced Mary signed, that would have made Scotland a mere adjunct of France."
buff up yer erchie malc it's gonna hurt :-)
Alan, it cannot be worse than the rogering we get from Westminster, it will eb like heaven compared to current shambles.
Comments
The Buran is a classic example: the Russians saw the military role the US wanted to use it for, and had to compete. But their solution, whilst looking similar because of the similar roles, was actually much more flexible. For instance, the entire rocket stack could be used without the orbiter (google 'Energia'), and the Thermal Protection System was allegedly far superior.
The US and USSR copied each other: the Shuttle itself is based somewhat on lifting body technology, which the Americans independently evolved from initial Russian research.
I'd also argue the TU160 is superior to the B1B in terms of aerodynamics and structure; but the B1B is far better in what really counts: avionics. That's where the Russians really failed: computers.
after 20 years it would be profitable. Half the population would have emigated - probably to England.
"who do we want as President? A woman who has spent her life helping children and families or a man who has spent his life helping himself."
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/302831-clinton-camp-launches-final-round-of-ads
The Russians saw the military uses the US envisaged for the Shuttle, and had to counter it. This meant the ability to pick up satellites from orbit (allegedly for repair, but an original idea was to be able to 'steal' foreign satellites). The US military also needed significant cross-range capability for polar orbits. (*)
The Russians were not interested in reusability, as they decided it was not economic (and were proven right!) But if you want to recover a satellite from orbit, then you need the ability to return. The ability to return cargo led to the body shape and size; the cross-range capability led to the similarly-shaped wings.
But outside those constraints, they were very different systems.
(*) They wanted to be able to return to the launch site after one orbit. But in the meantime the Earth will have rotated beneath it, meaning it needed to be able to glide a few hundred miles westwards. This was rarely (never?) used, and was the design constraint that most harmed the Shuttle design.
'Seems PB is splitting nicely in two on this one. Some of us think LHR will be the only salient issue and others think Liberals will manage to make it about Brexit.'
Any idea what the Lib Dems policy is to resolve the airport capacity issue ?
Or have they adopted the Green party anti business no airport expansion policy ?
“no net increase in runways across the UK as a whole”.
In 2014 their conference debated the issue and this one detail of the Economy paper:
"Developing a strategic airports policy in the light of the Davies review, while remaining opposed to any expansion of Heathrow, Stansted, Gatwick or any new airport in the Thames Estuary, and ensuring no net increase in runways across the UK as a whole."
At the time Clegg wanted Gatwick iirc.
Greece without sunshine
Quick update: No, the cocaine-fueled underage model sex parties story re: Trump is NOT one of the two devastating ones I expected to drop..
Scotland is hardly a basket case.
...however, one of those may now not come out in view of Trump's threats to sue. Cost of someone violating a Trump NDA just went way up.
No the anti-business position is held by the Brexiteers who want us to withdraw from the single market.
Its becoming clear we left the EU to get control of immigration.
In the modern world, the people who are in charge of immigration have huge power.
The British voters recognise this, and want that power for themselves. And they won;t be happy until they get it all.
A single market that can't do a trade deal with Canada.
Remainers are using the single market to deny the British voter access to the key power of immigration control.
Luckily, the voter realises the latter is worth a hundred times more than the former.
Any new EU state has to commit to joining either schengen or the common travel area. It's explicitly in the treaties.
Clinton 49 .. Trump 40
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dead-heat-congress-clintons-advantage-poll/story?id=43047979
Thanks.
Clinton 42 .. Trump 41
http://www.investors.com/politics/ibd-tipp-presidential-election-poll/
and Leave werent ?
really if you want to prissy around on the moral high ground best not do it stood in a swamp
Clinton 44 .. Trump 43
http://m.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/elections/election_2016/white_house_watch_oct26
Clinton Bands 538 Huff NYT ======================================== Under 250 10.11% 0.83% 3.61% 250-259 2.58% 0.76% 1.54% 260-269 2.55% 1.13% 2.07% 270-279 4.37% 3.05% 3.57% 280-289 3.69% 2.34% 2.88% 290-299 4.11% 3.92% 4.25% 300-309 4.90% 6.48% 6.39% 310-319 5.40% 7.71% 5.83% 320-329 6.29% 11.43% 10.23% 330-339 5.98% 9.07% 7.14% 340-349 7.59% 17.91% 11.74% 350-359 8.52% 18.77% 10.61% 360-369 7.15% 5.27% 7.21% 370-379 5.94% 4.42% 6.13% 380-389 4.20% 2.26% 4.29% 390-399 3.13% 2.04% 2.89% 400 or over 13.55% 2.62% 9.60% ======================================== Prob Clinton win 84.78% 97.29% 92.78% Implied fair value for spreads markets: Clinton ECVs 333.6 336.6 339.2 Clinton 270-up 70.0 67.1 71.2 Clinton 300-up 46.4 39.2 45.0 Clinton 330-up 27.0 16.2 23.4 Trump 270-up 6.2 0.4 1.9 Trump 300-up 2.9 0.1 0.6 Trump 330-up 1.1 0.0 0.2Clinton 48 .. Trump 31
http://m.seattlepi.com/local/politics/article/New-Elway-poll-Inslee-is-12-points-ahead-a-10186629.php?cmpid=twitter-mobile
A vote for Zac makes clear Richmond's opposition to Brexit
A vote for the LibDems dilutes that message ("don't like May" "soft Brexit" "LibDem resurgence" etc) despite fact that tgey are anti growth*
I'd imagine that's the way Zac will frame it
* or Heathrow if you prefer, but being agai at all airport expansion seems anti growth to me
Maybe people will vote for a man that they think is decent and honourable, as shown by his resignation. Will that be enough to keep the seat?
"A marriage treaty was signed with the Scots, which provided that Scotland and France should eventually be united under Mary and Francis as one kingdom. There were also secret agreements, which the youthful and inexperienced Mary signed, that would have made Scotland a mere adjunct of France."
buff up yer erchie malc it's gonna hurt :-)
'As far as I know the policy is basically:
“no net increase in runways across the UK as a whole”.
In 2014 their conference debated the issue and this one detail of the Economy paper:
"Developing a strategic airports policy in the light of the Davies review, while remaining opposed to any expansion of Heathrow, Stansted, Gatwick or any new airport in the Thames Estuary, and ensuring no net increase in runways across the UK as a whole."
Brilliant,that way they can oppose every airport expansion & grab some Green votes back as the anti business party.
I disagree. Voters want to control immigration, because they can see that whoever controls this has power over society. Immigration changes countries very radically, and in a very short time.
Look at the US. America has changed vastly in the last 30 years, and it will keep changing at a very fast speed if Hillary Clinton gets in.
Now, whether you think that change is good or bad, or mixed, is up to you, but it can;t be denied that the people who control the flow have huge power.
British voters want that power, and I think Theresa May knows this. She will give it to them.
But for the House-of-Stuart the Anglo-Norse and the remaining Celts may have buried the Brian O'Boru mistake and - who knows - turned his kingdom into a decent cricketing nation. At least his bigoted forefathers kicked the Scots out; poor Picts has to pick up the pieces though...!
a pantywaist game for numpties in silk tights
'What makes you think Scotland is a basket case Alan,'
Would you care to tell which figures are incorrect in this article ?
Scotland's a bigger economic basket case than Greece | Daily Mail ...
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article.../Scotland-s-bigger-economic-basket-case-Greece.ht...
Scotland is a bigger economic basket case than Greece: Country would have to double basic ... Published: 19:18 EST, 12 October 2016 | Updated: 02:09 EST, 13 October 2016
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32680334
https://youtu.be/V9O97P0I950
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