If Clinton wins there is every possibility of investigations around some of Trump's team's associations. Legal investigations. You don't want to be near it.
One point on a second scottish vote. The supposed risk with a second vote is that if it is lost, then the issue is resolved forever/generations. We don't actually have anything to support that other than a 'not-particularly-comparable' quebec vote. there's no actual empirical evidence that you get 2 strikes and o when it comes to independence referendums, it's just one of those things 'they' say.
Realistically, say there is a 2nd vote, and the SNP lose by a slightly smaller margin than last time. For the next couple of years, yes people will say that the issue has been sealed recently, but it will only take another trigger event of any kind for the SNP to use it to go for a 3rd vote, while arguing that demographics have shifted significantly since then.
Nah, it's shite - because the SNP is now in parliamentary decline. They've peaked. Sturreon is not quite as good as Salmond, and her successor will be less good still.
The Nats are unlikely to get another majority for many years, after this Holyrood parliament. This IS their last chance. To that extent I agree with Meeks.
They haven't yet quite completed a cycle of upswing yet though. They'll make big gains in next year's Scottish council elections, with equivalent losses for Labour. Even if they're down on 12-24 months ago, they're still up on where they were 5 years ago.
Some people on Twitter saying turnout in Witney could be as low as 25%. Sounds like total bollocks to me. It'll be at least 40% in such a middle-class area IMO.
Sgt. Sunil: All right, sweethearts, you're a team and there's nothin' to worry about. We come here, and we're gonna conquer, and we're gonna kick some, is that understood? That's what we gonna do, sweethearts, we are going to go and get some. All right, people, on the ready line! Are ya lean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?
PB Tories: LEAN AND MEAN!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? RobD! TSE! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
One point on a second scottish vote. The supposed risk with a second vote is that if it is lost, then the issue is resolved forever/generations. We don't actually have anything to support that other than a 'not-particularly-comparable' quebec vote. there's no actual empirical evidence that you get 2 strikes and o when it comes to independence referendums, it's just one of those things 'they' say.
Realistically, say there is a 2nd vote, and the SNP lose by a slightly smaller margin than last time. For the next couple of years, yes people will say that the issue has been sealed recently, but it will only take another trigger event of any kind for the SNP to use it to go for a 3rd vote, while arguing that demographics have shifted significantly since then.
Nah, it's shite - because the SNP is now in parliamentary decline. They've peaked. Sturreon is not quite as good as Salmond, and her successor will be less good still.
The Nats are unlikely to get another majority for many years, after this Holyrood parliament. This IS their last chance. To that extent I agree with Meeks.
They haven't yet quite completed a cycle of upswing yet though. They'll make big gains in next year's Scottish council elections, with equivalent losses for Labour. Even if they're down on 12-24 months ago, they're still up on where they were 5 years ago.
If the SNP HAVE peaked - who benefits? Ruth Davidson is doing well for the Scottish Tories, but surely the number of SNP-Tory voters is negligible. Labour - and Scottish Labour - are hardly looking like winning back the lost voters of the Central Belt and East Coast right now. The Lib Dems? Apart from their strongholds around the edges of Scotland, the Lib Dems were only ever a minority interest in Scotland and they don't look like turning this around right now. Someone else? This is why I think the SNP can coast along quite happily for a bit yet - there's nowhere else for their voters to go.
Some people on Twitter saying turnout in Witney could be as low as 25%. Sounds like total bollocks to me. It'll be at least 40% in such a middle-class area IMO.
Yeh, only urban seats where no one gives a f*** because they are under so much other pressure does turn out at a by-election hit 25%
I suspect the earlier report was a second hand polling station report from a presiding officer before close of poll and left out postal voters and the normal 9.30pm rush
Some people on Twitter saying turnout in Witney could be as low as 25%. Sounds like total bollocks to me. It'll be at least 40% in such a middle-class area IMO.
Yeh, only urban seats where no one gives a f*** because they are under so much other pressure does turn out at a by-election hit 25%
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Britain Elects @britainelects 1m1 minute ago Liberal Democrat GAIN St Mary's (East Riding of Yorkshire) from Conservative).
Britain Elects @britainelects 1m1 minute ago Conservative GAIN Strood South (Medway) from UKIP.
That was a Lib Dem gain from 4th place - the candidate was Dennis Healy ( no relation) The Strood seat was formerly held for UKIP by Mrs Mark Reckless.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yeah, it is the Leavers who seem most nervous of what happens next.
It is going to be Hard Brexit, and they are going to have to own it.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yeah, it is the Leavers who seem most nervous of what happens next.
It is going to be Hard Brexit, and they are going to have to own it.
I suspect the thinking leaver (e.g. Boris and co) is absolutely sh***** themselves about the contortions they are going to have to pull off.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
We've already got the best possible trade deal with the EU. Why not save the trouble and stick with it?
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
I voted Leave. Ideally, I wanted some EFTA or EEA type arrangement. This remains my favoured solution, and Ill be disappointed if we don't end up with it. To be honest, I was never personally that bothered about immigration, and would personally be prepared to make some compromises on that score - but I'm lucky enough to have a middle-class income and can take a ore relaxed view of such things. But I voted leave accepting that it might result in a hard brexit. I'd rather not have a hard brexit, but we must be prepared for it in order to get any sort of deal at all. And I'd rather have a hard brexit than a hard remain.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
Then we face economic ruin.
The big question being to what extent that becomes obvious before the point of no return, and to what extent a nasty surprise afterwards.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
We've already got the best possible trade deal with the EU. Why not save the trouble and stick with it?
the cheap answer is because the leavers promised a load of bollx like £350m for the NHS. The longer answer is because the public, by a narrow %, want to leave the EU. The question is whether they will change their minds once the true implications are revealed.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
Then we face economic ruin.
The big question being to what extent that becomes obvious before the point of no return, and to what extent a nasty surprise afterwards.
Personally, I think there will be a change of heart at some point as the negotiations drag on into years.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
Then we face economic ruin.
Why? If we have a trade deal with the EU then that is the perfect "have cake and eat it" scenario.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
We've already got the best possible trade deal with the EU. Why not save the trouble and stick with it?
Because we have a terrible deal the nation has rejected.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
We've already got the best possible trade deal with the EU. Why not save the trouble and stick with it?
the cheap answer is because the leavers promised a load of bollx like £350m for the NHS. The longer answer is because the public, by a narrow %, want to leave the EU. The question is whether they will change their minds once the true implications are revealed.
Conrad Black (despite being an odious character) is presumably well connected and his suggestion that the EU will come back with a last ditch final offer - which is what Boris both wanted and expected before the vote - is of some interest.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
We've already got the best possible trade deal with the EU. Why not save the trouble and stick with it?
the cheap answer is because the leavers promised a load of bollx like £350m for the NHS. The longer answer is because the public, by a narrow %, want to leave the EU. The question is whether they will change their minds once the true implications are revealed.
Incidentally one aspect of why our current deal is the best possible is that we have an absolute guarantee that our competitors in France and Germany will not have preferential access to other markets. How sick would the free-trading Brexit mob be if the EU went on to sign significant FTAs that we were frozen out of?
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
Then we face economic ruin.
Why? If we have a trade deal with the EU then that is the perfect "have cake and eat it" scenario.
Get back to me about your cake once the UK has negotiated a trade deal with the EU.
I am surprised we don't yet have the Batley turnout yet, particularly as it is reported to be low.
Only 25.8%
Not good. Theoretically means winner could have won with less than 10% of the electorate if the other main parties had been standing.
I expect if the other parties had stood, turnout would have been higher.
Nobody in mainstream politics wanted the byelection - it exists because we have a democratic system that has no proper protocol for what happens after a political assassination. By not standing, the respectable democratic parties entrench the convention.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
We've already got the best possible trade deal with the EU. Why not save the trouble and stick with it?
the cheap answer is because the leavers promised a load of bollx like £350m for the NHS. The longer answer is because the public, by a narrow %, want to leave the EU. The question is whether they will change their minds once the true implications are revealed.
Both sides told bollocks like the £4300 per family that we'd be worse off if we left. What do you think is due to be revealed that hasn't already been said?
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
We've already got the best possible trade deal with the EU. Why not save the trouble and stick with it?
the cheap answer is because the leavers promised a load of bollx like £350m for the NHS. The longer answer is because the public, by a narrow %, want to leave the EU. The question is whether they will change their minds once the true implications are revealed.
To be fair, I think the public get the implications. I've seen a few times Brexiters saying they understood very well the loss of the single market.
Now they may not be fully across the precise detail (witness the lady in the QT audience tonight who claimed the WTO was just as good) but they get the trade off of control for prosperity.
They just don't seem to care.
We Remainers who think it's a matter of explaining it more carefully are backing a losing horse.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
Then we face economic ruin.
Why? If we have a trade deal with the EU then that is the perfect "have cake and eat it" scenario.
Get back to me about your cake once the UK has negotiated a trade deal with the EU.
Sure. We can then also negotiate trade deals with America, Japan, Australia, India etc - get back to me when the EU does those.
At what point do remainers realise they are not that clever and that leavers are not all stupid. Remainers need to keep two things in mind either they were too stupid to convince the electorate that remain was the best choice or Brexit was actually the best choice.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
We've already got the best possible trade deal with the EU. Why not save the trouble and stick with it?
the cheap answer is because the leavers promised a load of bollx like £350m for the NHS. The longer answer is because the public, by a narrow %, want to leave the EU. The question is whether they will change their minds once the true implications are revealed.
Incidentally one aspect of why our current deal is the best possible is that we have an absolute guarantee that our competitors in France and Germany will not have preferential access to other markets. How sick would the free-trading Brexit mob be if the EU went on to sign significant FTAs that we were frozen out of?
Why would that happen? Seriously the opposite is infinitely more likely.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - .
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Strikes me that the louder Leavers shout down everyone else who dares even mention what do we do next, the more they betray their deep underlying fear that they have made a monumental mistake.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
Yes it does, we will be out of it. Out of the single market too and it will be about trying to negotiate the best possible bilateral trade deal between the UK and EU.
We've already got the best possible trade deal with the EU. Why not save the trouble and stick with it?
the cheap answer is because the leavers promised a load of bollx like £350m for the NHS. The longer answer is because the public, by a narrow %, want to leave the EU. The question is whether they will change their minds once the true implications are revealed.
Incidentally one aspect of why our current deal is the best possible is that we have an absolute guarantee that our competitors in France and Germany will not have preferential access to other markets. How sick would the free-trading Brexit mob be if the EU went on to sign significant FTAs that we were frozen out of?
Why would that happen? Seriously the opposite is infinitely more likely.
Except it doesn't work that way. When the economy tanks and businesses that trade with EU shut up shop because Fox's fantasy trading arrangements with India didn't actually materialise, then the people out of work will forget which way they voted and start jumping up and down and moaning why is everything 10x worse than it was a few years ago.
Even if leaving the EU was a good idea at some point, we have picked a bloody bad time, economically, to give it a go.
Remaoners getting a kicking on QT from Hartlepool.
It's a very Brexit town - the audience are coming across as somewhat obsessive.
It was the same in Hendon.
This is the new common ground of British politics.
Consequently, Labour are toast.
What a hate-filled audience.
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
Is that the word you use when people who don't agree with you democratically decide something?
I just call it as it is. Perhaps we were watching different shows.
Honest question Mr Walker - are you an urbanite or a rural dweller?
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
I'm a filthy Islingtonite.
But I was born and grew up in a working class suburb of Auckland, NZ. My people are car mechanics, book-keepers, machinists.
I get it. I get the power of "take back control" and the feeling of not being heard. But I think I also recognise hate and intolerace.
I'm beginning to think Mr Meeks is right: whatever the rights and wrongs of Brexit, this campaign was won by appealing to people's basest instincts.
And now we reap what was sown. Hard Brexit - because it does not require discussion, understanding, tolerance - naturally follows.
As with Trump - all you need to do is to abandon people to your contempt for long enough. They will then find a cause.
A number of years ago I lived in the town of Malmesbury for a while. Lovely looking place - medieval stone buildings etc. The locals don't live in the nice part of the town. They live in the estate over the hill. Priced out. They are sneered at by the incomers - I was actually told off for drinking in a "local" pub, by a wonderfully progressive type. There is no development to "spoil" the locality with jobs - all carefully kept in check by the kind of people who blame Thatcher for the demise of British industry....
The funny bit is that the incomers don't understand why they are not liked - they pay cash in hand for the gardening/decorating jobs after all. And it is so natural to hate people who drink beer from tins and put English flags in their windows.... What could possibly be wrong with that?
Why would that happen? Seriously the opposite is infinitely more likely.
In a trade negotiation size is everything.
Bull. In a trade negotiation flexibility is everything. Besides our size is already big in its own right. Besides the US, China, EU and Japan we are the world's largest economy. The EU can't and won't sign a deal with itself and will not sign a deal with the US, China or Japan either (TTIP is dead). We might with those sign one independent of the EU.
For every other nation in the globe we are bigger than them.
Comments
"probably second"...
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: Are ya mean?
PB Tories: Yeah!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU?
PB Tories: LEAN AND MEAN!
Sgt. Sunil: WHAT ARE YOU? RobD! TSE! Get on the ready line, PB Tories, get some today! Get on the ready line! Move it out! Move it out, goddammit! Get hot! One, two, three, four! Get out, get out, get out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! Move it out, move it out, move it out! One, two, three, four, five, six, seven! Aaarrrrr, absolutely badasses! Let's pack 'em in! Get in there!
https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/789234309613752320
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/trump-national-political-director-steps-back-from-campaign-230120
Like rats from a...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/789236632406851584
They shouted down anyone we dared to even suggest we need to actually figure out what happens next.
And they booed the poor Polish woman who had been living there for a 20 years.
Disgraceful showing. If that's mainstream, we're heading straight for dictatorship.
'Sky News correspondent at Witney: no doubt Tories have won the seat. "Big Tory majority, LDs probably second."
Surely that can't be true after all the endless Lib Dem ramping ?
Britain Elects @britainelects 1m1 minute ago
Liberal Democrat GAIN St Mary's (East Riding of Yorkshire) from Conservative).
Britain Elects @britainelects 1m1 minute ago
Conservative GAIN Strood South (Medway) from UKIP.
Though probably not, as I said take with a heap of salt.
They'll need it...
I think this is going to be one of the biggest cleavages in the next century of our politics....
Just a different sort of urban.
I went there in the eighties once. Not a lot to draw me back.
They can stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'democracy' and 'we voted out' as long as they like, but it still doesn't explain what we will do about being in or out of the customs union.
LD 916
Con 388
Lab 193
Green 98
UKIP 16
The Strood seat was formerly held for UKIP by Mrs Mark Reckless.
It is going to be Hard Brexit, and they are going to have to own it.
But I was born and grew up in a working class suburb of Auckland, NZ. My people are car mechanics, book-keepers, machinists.
I get it. I get the power of "take back control" and the feeling of not being heard. But I think I also recognise hate and intolerace.
I'm beginning to think Mr Meeks is right: whatever the rights and wrongs of Brexit, this campaign was won by appealing to people's basest instincts.
And now we reap what was sown. Hard Brexit - because it does not require discussion, understanding, tolerance - naturally follows.
Congrats to Mark Senior who said it would be 48%.
LD 1497
Con 947
Lab 689
Bev 364
Ind 141
UKIP 101
That should have been contested - would have boosted turnout and proven the candidate, and the value of democracy....
Personally, I think there will be a change of heart at some point as the negotiations drag on into years.
I suspect our bias wants us too....
Nobody in mainstream politics wanted the byelection - it exists because we have a democratic system that has no proper protocol for what happens after a political assassination. By not standing, the respectable democratic parties entrench the convention.
Is that actually how the nun's name was meant to be pronounced?
I've seen a few times Brexiters saying they understood very well the loss of the single market.
Now they may not be fully across the precise detail (witness the lady in the QT audience tonight who claimed the WTO was just as good) but they get the trade off of control for prosperity.
They just don't seem to care.
We Remainers who think it's a matter of explaining it more carefully are backing a losing horse.
Remainers need to keep two things in mind either they were too stupid to convince the electorate that remain was the best choice or Brexit was actually the best choice.
Sometimes people have greater motivations than their own back pocket to decide how they vote.
Even if leaving the EU was a good idea at some point, we have picked a bloody bad time, economically, to give it a go.
So who knows.
My white working class persona tells me it's Ter-ease-a May, and anything else is putting on airs.
A number of years ago I lived in the town of Malmesbury for a while. Lovely looking place - medieval stone buildings etc. The locals don't live in the nice part of the town. They live in the estate over the hill. Priced out. They are sneered at by the incomers - I was actually told off for drinking in a "local" pub, by a wonderfully progressive type. There is no development to "spoil" the locality with jobs - all carefully kept in check by the kind of people who blame Thatcher for the demise of British industry....
The funny bit is that the incomers don't understand why they are not liked - they pay cash in hand for the gardening/decorating jobs after all. And it is so natural to hate people who drink beer from tins and put English flags in their windows.... What could possibly be wrong with that?
For every other nation in the globe we are bigger than them.