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  • I was right

    The coalition worked better as a government than a small majority government.

    Ancient history isn't my strong point but did Dave build HR3 during the six years he was in No. 10?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,250
    MaxPB said:

    SeanT said:

    Hard Brexit and Heathrow Delayed. I started the day quite cheerful.

    Let's wait and see whether the chancellor resigns.
    Perhaps he ought.

    Playing chicken with the economy seems to be "having a moment" as the fashion people say.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    How crap do you have to be before Lucy Powell can legitimately mock you?

    YOu also saying you prefer leadsom now?

    That's a lot of wasted re-tweets, right there.
  • RoyalBlue said:

    TSE has well and truly lost his marbles. How many people in the Republic of Ireland wish to rejoin the UK, or Mongolia China?

    It has happened before (of a sort). TSE, being learned in classical stuff, might even have been thinking of it, though I suspect it's a little after his usual period:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groans_of_the_Britons
    Good ol General Wade finally sorted that....
  • nunu said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness sakes its never getting built is it. TMay is turning out to be a not very good PM.She dithers too much.
    Perhaps she is a Macavity coward.
    Even though we all think Heathrow would pass with Labour's support, she's just not willing to risk a Commons defeat (yet).

    On the face of it, this seems barking, and has wider implications at this particular febrile moment, than airport capacity alone.

    Edit: perhaps she's waiting for post election when she has a proper majority.

    God who knows. It's insane.
    The SNP support Heathrow and there is a large majority in the HOC for it. The problem for TM is that their are many conservative held London seats, her's included, that are vehemently against together with the London mayor and in these circumstances it is a difficult decision for her politically, the economic case is not the issue
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,188
    Presumably Theresa May as MP for Maidstone has "significant constituency interest" in the Heathrow outcome and could derogate from publicly supporting her own policy on airport expansion. She has to apply for permission from the Prime Minister first however.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121

    So, Heathrow is NOT delayed. This is about as fast as it could be (which is very slow, admittedly).

    Indeed. HUGE amount of silliness on here this afternoon...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    No geriatric Lamborghinis...

    @SkyNewsBreak: The Treasury has abandoned plans to allow millions of pensioners to cash in their annuities which had been due to come into force next year
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,250
    After two successive briefings over the past week that we were about to get a clear decision?

    Who's doing their PR?

    Is Seams Milne honeymooning?
  • GIN1138 said:

    So, Heathrow is NOT delayed. This is about as fast as it could be (which is very slow, admittedly).

    Indeed. HUGE amount of silliness on here this afternoon...
    I blame TSE the TINO :lol:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,347
    edited October 2016
    Scott_P said:

    No geriatric Lamborghinis...

    @SkyNewsBreak: The Treasury has abandoned plans to allow millions of pensioners to cash in their annuities which had been due to come into force next year

    Its like anything Osborne proposed is getting cancelled....Just sugar tax left.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Its like anything Osborne proposed is getting cancelled....Just sugar tax left.

    Which will make his triumphant return all the sweeter...
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    I'm increasingly of the view that the 1947 Town and Country Planning Act is the worst legacy of the Attlee government. We are still suffering the consequences today!
  • FF43 said:

    Presumably Theresa May as MP for Maidstone has "significant constituency interest" in the Heathrow outcome and could derogate from publicly supporting her own policy on airport expansion. She has to apply for permission from the Prime Minister first however.

    Maidenhead NOT Maidstone!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,250

    Scott_P said:

    No geriatric Lamborghinis...

    @SkyNewsBreak: The Treasury has abandoned plans to allow millions of pensioners to cash in their annuities which had been due to come into force next year

    Its like anything Osborne proposed is getting cancelled....Just sugar tax left.
    I feel like the government is losing its ability to *do* anything. Small staters might like that of course.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness sakes its never getting built is it. TMay is turning out to be a not very good PM.She dithers too much.
    Theresa Maybe could prove to be one of the worst PMs in the modern era.

    The LHR3 wobble is utterly ridiculous, shambolic stuff.

    And what's this garbage about UK visas? Where is she getting this guff from?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness sakes its never getting built is it. TMay is turning out to be a not very good PM.She dithers too much.
    Perhaps she is a Macavity coward.
    Even though we all think Heathrow would pass with Labour's support, she's just not willing to risk a Commons defeat (yet).

    On the face of it, this seems barking, and has wider implications at this particular febrile moment, than airport capacity alone.

    Edit: perhaps she's waiting for post election when she has a proper majority.

    God who knows. It's insane.
    The SNP support Heathrow and there is a large majority in the HOC for it. The problem for TM is that their are many conservative held London seats, her's included, that are vehemently against together with the London mayor and in these circumstances it is a difficult decision for her politically, the economic case is not the issue
    She's facing the weakest Labour leader in generations, and has a majority government. No excuses.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,188

    FF43 said:

    Presumably Theresa May as MP for Maidstone has "significant constituency interest" in the Heathrow outcome and could derogate from publicly supporting her own policy on airport expansion. She has to apply for permission from the Prime Minister first however.

    Maidenhead NOT Maidstone!
    Crap! Thanks for that.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,250
    edited October 2016

    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness sakes its never getting built is it. TMay is turning out to be a not very good PM.She dithers too much.
    Perhaps she is a Macavity coward.
    Even though we all think Heathrow would pass with Labour's support, she's just not willing to risk a Commons defeat (yet).

    On the face of it, this seems barking, and has wider implications at this particular febrile moment, than airport capacity alone.

    Edit: perhaps she's waiting for post election when she has a proper majority.

    God who knows. It's insane.
    The SNP support Heathrow and there is a large majority in the HOC for it. The problem for TM is that their are many conservative held London seats, her's included, that are vehemently against together with the London mayor and in these circumstances it is a difficult decision for her politically, the economic case is not the issue
    Theresa May is riding high in the polls.
    If she's not wiling to spend a little capital in the best interests of the country now, she never will be.

    This Heathrow ago-go is the aviation equivalent of the election-that-never-was.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    Jobabob said:

    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness sakes its never getting built is it. TMay is turning out to be a not very good PM.She dithers too much.
    Theresa Maybe could prove to be one of the worst PMs in the modern era.

    The LHR3 wobble is utterly ridiculous, shambolic stuff.

    And what's this garbage about UK visas? Where is she getting this guff from?
    I'm not sure the whole visa plan will actually go ahead.

    U-turned, delayed, long grassed, "grammared" etc etc
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited October 2016
    On the collective responsibility point, the PM is trying hard to limit the opposition from those ministers who are against R3, but I think she'll have great difficulty holding that line. I'm not sure it's realistic to say 'you can oppose the decision but not in the House, and you can't campaign against it, and you can't criticise the process'. I don't think that will work.

    To be fair to Theresa May, I don't think this circle can be squared. The issue is completely toxic politically, and the government has a tiny majority. I do think, though, that she should have gone for it in the first couple of weeks of her premiership, and I said this at the time. She has let political capital drain away to no purpose, and wasted some of it on the grammar-school nonsense.
  • I get the sensitivities around Heathrow, but in the meantime why the hell not give Gatwick it's second runway anyway? It doesn't need any public money and they're pretty much ready to go now. Total madness!
  • I get the sensitivities around Heathrow, but in the meantime why the hell not give Gatwick it's second runway anyway? It doesn't need any public money and they're pretty much ready to go now. Total madness!

    There would be just as much opposition in the Gatwick area, if not more.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    edited October 2016

    After two successive briefings over the past week that we were about to get a clear decision?

    Who's doing their PR?

    Is Seams Milne honeymooning?

    The governments decision is clearly (to build the runway) but of course the government has to have a "consultation" as people will be having their homes knocked down to make way for the runway.

    If they tried to do it without consulting first it would be subject to all sorts of legal challenge,
  • So why didn't the REMAINERs' heart-throb Dave do anything about Heathrow? He was PM for SIX YEARS! Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

    Theresa has been PM for only three months!
  • I get the sensitivities around Heathrow, but in the meantime why the hell not give Gatwick it's second runway anyway? It doesn't need any public money and they're pretty much ready to go now. Total madness!

    There would be just as much opposition in the Gatwick area, if not more.
    The area around Gatwick is less densely built up.
  • Jobabob said:
    Why? She's clearly waving with a significant bend at the elbow.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    SeanT said:

    Who the F do I vote for now?

    Tories are silly Hard Brexiteers but soft on Heathrow
    Labour: Corbyn
    Lib Dems: lol
    SNP: lol
    UKIP: lol

    What a mess.

    Plaid Cymru, boss.

    The Welsh government is skint as shit but with Plaid now in a coalition with Labour they've just decided to splurge a load of money on, erm, the Welsh language.

    That worldwide language spoken only in rural Wales and Patagonia.

    I'm Welsh. I love Wales. But why prioritise the Welsh language over cancer care?
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    "the proposed new visa regime would force EU citizens to secure a skilled job in the U.K. before they were allowed in"

    So are they allowed to attend the UK for interviews? Once they have got a job sorted they can stay forever right?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,250
    edited October 2016
    GIN1138 said:

    After two successive briefings over the past week that we were about to get a clear decision?

    Who's doing their PR?

    Is Seams Milne honeymooning?

    The governments decision is clearly (to build the runway) but of course the government has to have a "consultation" as people will be having their homes knocked down to make way for the runway.

    If they tried to do it without consulting first it would be subject to all sorts of legal challenge,
    We've had more bloody consultation than Sigmund Freud.

    This is sloppy. The PR has been shambolic.
    The City must be tearing it's hair out.

    Ugh.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807


    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness sakes its never getting built is it. TMay is turning out to be a not very good PM.She dithers too much.
    Perhaps she is a Macavity coward.
    Even though we all think Heathrow would pass with Labour's support, she's just not willing to risk a Commons defeat (yet).

    On the face of it, this seems barking, and has wider implications at this particular febrile moment, than airport capacity alone.

    Edit: perhaps she's waiting for post election when she has a proper majority.

    God who knows. It's insane.
    The SNP support Heathrow and there is a large majority in the HOC for it. The problem for TM is that their are many conservative held London seats, her's included, that are vehemently against together with the London mayor and in these circumstances it is a difficult decision for her politically, the economic case is not the issue
    Theresa May is riding high in the polls.
    If she's not wiling to spend a little capital in the best interests of the country now, she never will be.

    This Heathrow ago-go is the aviation equivalent of the election-that-never-was.
    For once, a neat analogy on PB!!
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:
    Why? She's clearly waving with a significant bend at the elbow.

    Not waving but drowning?
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    edited October 2016
    Anyone know what time the high court decision on a50 to be announced?
  • Jobabob said:

    "the proposed new visa regime would force EU citizens to secure a skilled job in the U.K. before they were allowed in"

    So are they allowed to attend the UK for interviews? Once they have got a job sorted they can stay forever right?

    Remember - everything that we impose on EU citizens will be reciprocated. I cannot see this happening. I wonder if the definition of immigrant might change.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121

    GIN1138 said:

    After two successive briefings over the past week that we were about to get a clear decision?

    Who's doing their PR?

    Is Seams Milne honeymooning?

    The governments decision is clearly (to build the runway) but of course the government has to have a "consultation" as people will be having their homes knocked down to make way for the runway.

    If they tried to do it without consulting first it would be subject to all sorts of legal challenge,
    We've had more bloody consultation that Sigmund Freud.

    This is sloppy. The PR has been shambolic.
    The City must be tearing it's hair out.

    Ugh.

    Well of course we must think about the city but we must also consider the people that are going to be "moved" from their homes.

    The third runway is coming but (as always) when it comes to "planning" things run slowly in this country.
  • I get the sensitivities around Heathrow, but in the meantime why the hell not give Gatwick it's second runway anyway? It doesn't need any public money and they're pretty much ready to go now. Total madness!

    There would be just as much opposition in the Gatwick area, if not more.
    The Gatwick area is a lot more rural than the area around Heathrow. It'd be the equivalent to when Manchester got a 2nd runway in terms of disruption/protests i'd guess.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Surely we're at the stage where the government accepts LH3 and rejects the other options? I.e. move forward with the LH3 option and disregard the others.

    Or are we still going to be in this mess where we don't know which option they're moving forward with?
  • SeanT said:

    And more

    Richard Westcott ‏@BBCwestcott 3m3 minutes ago
    Heathrow tell me "absolutely the expected process" to have vote in a year

    So can we all just stop REMOANING in that case?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,347
    edited October 2016
    Jobabob said:

    "the proposed new visa regime would force EU citizens to secure a skilled job in the U.K. before they were allowed in"

    So are they allowed to attend the UK for interviews? Once they have got a job sorted they can stay forever right?

    Are you been deliberately wally today? Pretty much all countries allow you to attend an interview, the difference is normally if you can visit and openly put yourself about for work eg USA you can't, Canada as a UK cizen you can.

    In this day and age it is mostly irrevelant as you can do both via the internet.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    "the proposed new visa regime would force EU citizens to secure a skilled job in the U.K. before they were allowed in"

    So are they allowed to attend the UK for interviews? Once they have got a job sorted they can stay forever right?

    Are you been deliberately wally today? Pretty much all countries allow you to attend an interview, the difference is normally if you can visit and openly pimut yourself about for work eg USA you can't, Canada as a UK cizen you can.
    Just short of time – the second was the one I was driving at really. Thanks.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121
    edited October 2016
    kjohnw said:

    Anyone know what time the high court decision on a50 to be announced?

    I read it'd be in November sometime.
  • Scott_P said:

    Its like anything Osborne proposed is getting cancelled....Just sugar tax left.

    Which will make his triumphant return all the sweeter...
    Remember the Olympic booing? Osborne's a loser.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-would-make-a-better-prime-minister-than-george-osborne-public-now-believe-a6984436.html

  • "Heathrow is a stupid place to build an additional runway. Its far too close to London, its got limited and highly congested transport links, it blights the lives of all the people around it. But there doesn't seem to be a viable proposal for a replacement hub airport never mind the cost of new transport links and people would need to be able to commute there. So with few options Heathrow is the only place to build an additional runway."

    Its no wonder this country fails to compete with other countries. We're terrified of infrastructure projects. Never mind the benefits to the economy of the construction phase, never mind the long term economic growth, it might upset the NIMBYs. So lets pretend all investment = subsidy, brand it hard left economics and not bother. Aftwer all there's more money to be made now flogging everything off to johnny foreigner and who cares about the peons.

    Frit.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,250
    I'd be interested to know what others think of the annuity change too.

    Not a pensions expert, but given QE, doesn't this mean pensioners will have to live on £5.50 and a packet of crisps until they pop their clogs? Annuities ain't what they were.

    On the face of it, this feels like another May clanger.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    An interesting article from TSE, which has clearly prompted the debate he was hoping for!

    I think however there is a small mistake at the end - AV, whilst probably helping LibDems to come through the middle in a handful of seats, would actually have also helped whichever of the two large parties is the most popular. Most experts suggest it would in most elections have increased the chance of majority government on a minority vote, rather than the reverse. Reform of the voting system needs to be some fair/proportional system, or not worth doing.
  • Scott_P said:

    No geriatric Lamborghinis...

    @SkyNewsBreak: The Treasury has abandoned plans to allow millions of pensioners to cash in their annuities which had been due to come into force next year

    Its like anything Osborne proposed is getting cancelled....Just sugar tax left.
    There were several proposals here, so I'd be interested to know the details.
  • Jobabob said:

    "the proposed new visa regime would force EU citizens to secure a skilled job in the U.K. before they were allowed in"

    So are they allowed to attend the UK for interviews? Once they have got a job sorted they can stay forever right?

    Are you been deliberately wally today? Pretty much all countries allow you to attend an interview, the difference is normally if you can visit and openly put yourself about for work eg USA you can't, Canada as a UK cizen you can.

    In this day and age it is mostly irrevelant as you can do both via the internet.
    I got my job in Colorado back in 2011 via a phone interview in late 2010.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139

    I don't see this makes any sense. Had we voted to Remain we would have ended up forced "to sign up to things like the Euro, The EU Army, and the Schengen agreement, possibly all of them" with the referendum result taken as democratic backing for the Project.

    Nope.

    The referendum would have seen the backing of the "deal" negotiated by Cameron.

    This idea that we were being ineluctably drawn into a nefarious pit of domination is nonsense.

    We were fence-sitting. Uncomfortably. But we'd been doing it successfully for many many years.

    I don't see this makes any sense. Had we voted to Remain we would have ended up forced "to sign up to things like the Euro, The EU Army, and the Schengen agreement, possibly all of them" with the referendum result taken as democratic backing for the Project.

    No. The referendum was clear on remain's side: it was for Cameron's renegotiation, which included none of the above.

    There might have been gradual creep towards them over the years (and that was my biggest fear about remain), but there was no mandate from a remain win for them, especially with such a close vote as we got.

    The problem we are faced with is that leave's meaning was unclear and inconsistent. As was pointed out at the time.
    Both of you, I think, are making the mistake of thinking I'm referring to how it would have been seen in Britain. I'm not, I'm referring to how it would have been seen in Brussels. Had we voted to Remain, any British resistance to further integration would have been met with "you have to, your people voted to stay in".
    It's hard to see into the minds of Eurocrats, but I doubt that a narrow remain vote would have emboldened them. At the very least they'd be aware that they had to deliver Cameron's reforms (not necessarily easy) otherwise there'd be another referendum as the terms would have changed.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    I'm disappointed no one has discussed the AV/electoral reform angle in the thread header.

    You people tell me you love AV threads.

    I think that's what they call false consciousness.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,347
    edited October 2016

    I'd be interested to know what others think of the annuity change too.

    Not a pensions expert, but given QE, doesn't this mean pensioners will have to live on £5.50 and a packet of crisps until they pop their clogs? Annuities ain't what they were.

    On the face of it, this feels like another May clanger.

    Other than the stupid media nanny state oldies will blow it all on sports cars stuff, I don't really remember any legitimate criticsm. Maybe there is some major downside? But this came from the lib dem expert in this field, Steve Webb.
  • Jobabob said:

    "the proposed new visa regime would force EU citizens to secure a skilled job in the U.K. before they were allowed in"

    So are they allowed to attend the UK for interviews? Once they have got a job sorted they can stay forever right?

    Are you been deliberately wally today? Pretty much all countries allow you to attend an interview, the difference is normally if you can visit and openly put yourself about for work eg USA you can't, Canada as a UK cizen you can.

    In this day and age it is mostly irrevelant as you can do both via the internet.
    I got my job in Colorado back in 2011 via a phone interview in late 2010.
    Hopefully Jobabob should reocgnise the system being proposed as that in effect in the EU until 2002(ish)
  • I'd be interested to know what others think of the annuity change too.

    Not a pensions expert, but given QE, doesn't this mean pensioners will have to live on £5.50 and a packet of crisps until they pop their clogs? Annuities ain't what they were.

    On the face of it, this feels like another May clanger.

    No, I think this refers to the proposal to allow existing annuities (i.e. ones already in payment) to be sold on a secondary market. It was a nice idea, but the industry wasn't terribly interested and it hasn't looked viable for some time. I'm not surprised it's collapsed.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121

    "Heathrow is a stupid place to build an additional runway. Its far too close to London, its got limited and highly congested transport links, it blights the lives of all the people around it. But there doesn't seem to be a viable proposal for a replacement hub airport never mind the cost of new transport links and people would need to be able to commute there. So with few options Heathrow is the only place to build an additional runway."

    Its no wonder this country fails to compete with other countries. We're terrified of infrastructure projects. Never mind the benefits to the economy of the construction phase, never mind the long term economic growth, it might upset the NIMBYs. So lets pretend all investment = subsidy, brand it hard left economics and not bother. Aftwer all there's more money to be made now flogging everything off to johnny foreigner and who cares about the peons.

    Frit.

    As posted further down, we're a nation of NIMBY's because, since 1947, we've been stuck with the Town and Country Planning Act which means any major project (and even a lot of small scale local projects) have to jump through hoops to get anything done.

    That said, if someone was planning to put a runway or a road or a railway line through your house I suppose you and your MP wouldn't be very happy...
  • I'd be interested to know what others think of the annuity change too.

    Not a pensions expert, but given QE, doesn't this mean pensioners will have to live on £5.50 and a packet of crisps until they pop their clogs? Annuities ain't what they were.

    On the face of it, this feels like another May clanger.

    No, I think this refers to the proposal to allow existing annuities (i.e. ones already in payment) to be sold on a secondary market. It was a nice idea, but the industry wasn't terribly interested and it hasn't looked viable for some time. I'm not surprised it's collapsed.
    In hindsight asking the market to focus both on more freedom as at the point in retirement *and* reform of the annuities market thereafter might have been a bridge too far.
  • I'm disappointed no one has discussed the AV/electoral reform angle in the thread header.

    You people tell me you love AV threads.

    2011 referendum:

    NO to AV 68%
    YES to AV 32%
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    GIN1138 said:

    "Heathrow is a stupid place to build an additional runway. Its far too close to London, its got limited and highly congested transport links, it blights the lives of all the people around it. But there doesn't seem to be a viable proposal for a replacement hub airport never mind the cost of new transport links and people would need to be able to commute there. So with few options Heathrow is the only place to build an additional runway."

    Its no wonder this country fails to compete with other countries. We're terrified of infrastructure projects. Never mind the benefits to the economy of the construction phase, never mind the long term economic growth, it might upset the NIMBYs. So lets pretend all investment = subsidy, brand it hard left economics and not bother. Aftwer all there's more money to be made now flogging everything off to johnny foreigner and who cares about the peons.

    Frit.

    As posted further down, we're a nation of NIMBY's because, since 1947, we've been stuck with the Town and Country Planning Act which means any major project (and even a lot of small scale local projects) have to jump through hoops to get anything done.

    That said, if someone was planning to put a runway or a road or a railway line through your house I suppose you and your MP wouldn't be very happy...

    Mostly I think it's a compensation issue. If you paid a bonus to all those who lost their homes or were affected, it would go through much more easily.

  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,895
    IanB2 said:

    An interesting article from TSE, which has clearly prompted the debate he was hoping for!

    I think however there is a small mistake at the end - AV, whilst probably helping LibDems to come through the middle in a handful of seats, would actually have also helped whichever of the two large parties is the most popular. Most experts suggest it would in most elections have increased the chance of majority government on a minority vote, rather than the reverse. Reform of the voting system needs to be some fair/proportional system, or not worth doing.

    There were a significant number of people advocating STV, or other form of PR, campaigning against AV in the AV referendum.
  • We're terrified of infrastructure projects.

    It wasn't always like this, of course, as illustrated by the once dense network of canals, followed by the railways.

  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    GIN1138 said:

    "Heathrow is a stupid place to build an additional runway. Its far too close to London, its got limited and highly congested transport links, it blights the lives of all the people around it. But there doesn't seem to be a viable proposal for a replacement hub airport never mind the cost of new transport links and people would need to be able to commute there. So with few options Heathrow is the only place to build an additional runway."

    Its no wonder this country fails to compete with other countries. We're terrified of infrastructure projects. Never mind the benefits to the economy of the construction phase, never mind the long term economic growth, it might upset the NIMBYs. So lets pretend all investment = subsidy, brand it hard left economics and not bother. Aftwer all there's more money to be made now flogging everything off to johnny foreigner and who cares about the peons.

    Frit.

    As posted further down, we're a nation of NIMBY's because, since 1947, we've been stuck with the Town and Country Planning Act which means any major project (and even a lot of small scale local projects) have to jump through hoops to get anything done.

    That said, if someone was planning to put a runway or a road or a railway line through your house I suppose you and your MP wouldn't be very happy...
    Truth is, you can't make an omelette without making eggs. The Eurostar line went through an ancient graveyard in Islington. Pretty horrible for the relatives.

    Why don't we adopt the French policy, which AIUI is that the railway/airport etc goes ahead, but homeowners automatically receive twice the market value for their house in a CPO? Okay, so some people still wouldn't move were that the offer, but it sure as hell sugars the pill... (and I believe it is far cheaper than endless consultation).
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scott_P said:
    Keeping up her fine record as Home Secretary.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,531
    edited October 2016

    IanB2 said:

    An interesting article from TSE, which has clearly prompted the debate he was hoping for!

    I think however there is a small mistake at the end - AV, whilst probably helping LibDems to come through the middle in a handful of seats, would actually have also helped whichever of the two large parties is the most popular. Most experts suggest it would in most elections have increased the chance of majority government on a minority vote, rather than the reverse. Reform of the voting system needs to be some fair/proportional system, or not worth doing.

    There were a significant number of people advocating STV, or other form of PR, campaigning against AV in the AV referendum.
    I would have voted for STV had it been an option. I stuck with FPTP by default.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    I'm disappointed no one has discussed the AV/electoral reform angle in the thread header.

    You people tell me you love AV threads.

    I keep pointing out that Maine is voting on AV on November 8, but you insist on focusing on some other irrelevant trivia due to be decided on the same day. You talk a good game of AV threads...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    FF43 said:

    There is another thing.

    If we successfully Brexit, the old conflation that Europe = EU is broken. Gradually, we move into a world of Europes plural, in which a people can democratically decide how tight they want to couple with the German monetary beast.

    I am not one predicting Nexit or Italexit or Frexit. The EU will stagger on. But longer term - a generation perhaps - our example could see a real loosening around the edges and a final nail in the coffin of the 1950s era "ever closer union".

    We do need statesmen of imagination though. Not sure we've got that.

    If the EU collapses, which is more than a REMOTE possibility, the UK will be in a good position. It's already out and can set the agenda on a new European order. If, as is more likely, the EU carries on, the UK will be in a very frustrating position. There will - literally - be no alternative to the EU. The UK will variously aim to ignore the EU, resist it, work around it, undermine it and co-opt it. These tactics will cancel each other out. The UK will find it difficult to ally with third countries because their more important relationship is with the EU too. Their relationship with the UK will be through the prism of their primary relationship with the EU.

    No, never, not in a million years, not even in your dreams.

    The EU is our biggest trade partner. And, if you were able to trace the EU's debt through the intricate maze that is the world's financial system, you would for a lot of it finish up in London. If the EU collapses we too are looking at a disastrous scenario, from which a few miles of water and a misguided Brexit will do nothing to save us. So we all hope the EU thrives, ok?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    GIN1138 said:

    "Heathrow is a stupid place to build an additional runway. Its far too close to London, its got limited and highly congested transport links, it blights the lives of all the people around it. But there doesn't seem to be a viable proposal for a replacement hub airport never mind the cost of new transport links and people would need to be able to commute there. So with few options Heathrow is the only place to build an additional runway."

    Its no wonder this country fails to compete with other countries. We're terrified of infrastructure projects. Never mind the benefits to the economy of the construction phase, never mind the long term economic growth, it might upset the NIMBYs. So lets pretend all investment = subsidy, brand it hard left economics and not bother. Aftwer all there's more money to be made now flogging everything off to johnny foreigner and who cares about the peons.

    Frit.

    As posted further down, we're a nation of NIMBY's because, since 1947, we've been stuck with the Town and Country Planning Act which means any major project (and even a lot of small scale local projects) have to jump through hoops to get anything done.

    That said, if someone was planning to put a runway or a road or a railway line through your house I suppose you and your MP wouldn't be very happy...
    The owner of our rented stable wants HS2 to plough through his grounds as he's not spent a penny on it and the CPO will be good for him.
    The route however might be changed to go very near his second property into which he's invested heavily..
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    I'd be interested to know what others think of the annuity change too.

    Not a pensions expert, but given QE, doesn't this mean pensioners will have to live on £5.50 and a packet of crisps until they pop their clogs? Annuities ain't what they were.

    On the face of it, this feels like another May clanger.

    Worth noting that this announcement deals with cashing in existing annuities, rather than the much larger Osborne pension freedom proposal

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11468752/New-pension-rules-to-let-retired-savers-cash-in-annuities.html
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    "the proposed new visa regime would force EU citizens to secure a skilled job in the U.K. before they were allowed in"

    So are they allowed to attend the UK for interviews? Once they have got a job sorted they can stay forever right?

    Are you been deliberately wally today? Pretty much all countries allow you to attend an interview, the difference is normally if you can visit and openly put yourself about for work eg USA you can't, Canada as a UK cizen you can.

    In this day and age it is mostly irrevelant as you can do both via the internet.
    I got my job in Colorado back in 2011 via a phone interview in late 2010.
    I can't imagine offering anyone a job without meeting them face to face at least once. It's very hard on the telephone to strike up a proper rapport, even with videoconferencing. I'd worry that a visa system would discourage EU talent from coming here and applying for jobs.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    Argh, yet more delays for Heathrow?
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    "the proposed new visa regime would force EU citizens to secure a skilled job in the U.K. before they were allowed in"

    So are they allowed to attend the UK for interviews? Once they have got a job sorted they can stay forever right?

    Are you been deliberately wally today? Pretty much all countries allow you to attend an interview, the difference is normally if you can visit and openly put yourself about for work eg USA you can't, Canada as a UK cizen you can.

    In this day and age it is mostly irrevelant as you can do both via the internet.
    I got my job in Colorado back in 2011 via a phone interview in late 2010.
    Hopefully Jobabob should reocgnise the system being proposed as that in effect in the EU until 2002(ish)
    I wasn't an employer in those days so I don't – but I'm happy to take your word for it. I like the system as it is now but would extend FOM to some Commonwealth nations too. Aussie and New Zealanders are well-educated native English speakers yet we face admin hell trying to keep them after two years.
  • RobD said:

    Argh, yet more delays for Heathrow?

    Yeah but I've given you a thread on AV.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,163
    Have we all seen that Paddy is paying out on Clinton win?
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    "Heathrow is a stupid place to build an additional runway. Its far too close to London, its got limited and highly congested transport links, it blights the lives of all the people around it. But there doesn't seem to be a viable proposal for a replacement hub airport never mind the cost of new transport links and people would need to be able to commute there. So with few options Heathrow is the only place to build an additional runway."

    Its no wonder this country fails to compete with other countries. We're terrified of infrastructure projects. Never mind the benefits to the economy of the construction phase, never mind the long term economic growth, it might upset the NIMBYs. So lets pretend all investment = subsidy, brand it hard left economics and not bother. Aftwer all there's more money to be made now flogging everything off to johnny foreigner and who cares about the peons.

    Frit.

    Yes, no wonder our international peers laugh at us. Pathetic.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769

    Have we all seen that Paddy is paying out on Clinton win?

    Yep - but I wouldn't read too much into it, they may have to pay out on Trump too...
  • Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    "the proposed new visa regime would force EU citizens to secure a skilled job in the U.K. before they were allowed in"

    So are they allowed to attend the UK for interviews? Once they have got a job sorted they can stay forever right?

    Are you been deliberately wally today? Pretty much all countries allow you to attend an interview, the difference is normally if you can visit and openly put yourself about for work eg USA you can't, Canada as a UK cizen you can.

    In this day and age it is mostly irrevelant as you can do both via the internet.
    I got my job in Colorado back in 2011 via a phone interview in late 2010.
    I can't imagine offering anyone a job without meeting them face to face at least once. It's very hard on the telephone to strike up a proper rapport, even with videoconferencing. I'd worry that a visa system would discourage EU talent from coming here and applying for jobs.
    How about non-EU talent?
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,597
    So when will Zac trigger his by-election?

    Next week or after the vote in the Commons next year?
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Pulpstar said:

    Have we all seen that Paddy is paying out on Clinton win?

    Yep - but I wouldn't read too much into it, they may have to pay out on Trump too...
    It's a normal gimmick from them – have they ever got it wrong?
  • Talking of delays....

    A proposed eight-team Twenty20 competition in English cricket may not start until 2020.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,179
    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    Keeping up her fine record as Home Secretary.
    She's going to appoint a New Zealand expert to redo the Davies Commission report?
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    "the proposed new visa regime would force EU citizens to secure a skilled job in the U.K. before they were allowed in"

    So are they allowed to attend the UK for interviews? Once they have got a job sorted they can stay forever right?

    Are you been deliberately wally today? Pretty much all countries allow you to attend an interview, the difference is normally if you can visit and openly put yourself about for work eg USA you can't, Canada as a UK cizen you can.

    In this day and age it is mostly irrevelant as you can do both via the internet.
    I got my job in Colorado back in 2011 via a phone interview in late 2010.
    I can't imagine offering anyone a job without meeting them face to face at least once. It's very hard on the telephone to strike up a proper rapport, even with videoconferencing. I'd worry that a visa system would discourage EU talent from coming here and applying for jobs.
    How about non-EU talent?
    They are already overly discouraged IMO!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Jobabob said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "Heathrow is a stupid place to build an additional runway. Its far too close to London, its got limited and highly congested transport links, it blights the lives of all the people around it. But there doesn't seem to be a viable proposal for a replacement hub airport never mind the cost of new transport links and people would need to be able to commute there. So with few options Heathrow is the only place to build an additional runway."

    Its no wonder this country fails to compete with other countries. We're terrified of infrastructure projects. Never mind the benefits to the economy of the construction phase, never mind the long term economic growth, it might upset the NIMBYs. So lets pretend all investment = subsidy, brand it hard left economics and not bother. Aftwer all there's more money to be made now flogging everything off to johnny foreigner and who cares about the peons.

    Frit.

    As posted further down, we're a nation of NIMBY's because, since 1947, we've been stuck with the Town and Country Planning Act which means any major project (and even a lot of small scale local projects) have to jump through hoops to get anything done.

    That said, if someone was planning to put a runway or a road or a railway line through your house I suppose you and your MP wouldn't be very happy...
    Truth is, you can't make an omelette without making eggs. The Eurostar line went through an ancient graveyard in Islington. Pretty horrible for the relatives.

    (Snip)
    There's an interesting (to me at least) story related to that at St Pancras. When the Midland built their line to the new St Pancras terminus, it passed through the graveyard of St Pancras Old church.

    There was controversy over that, so a young architect was put in charge of the disinterment. His name? Thomas Hardy. Some claim that the sombre tone of his books and poems was in some way set by the experience.

    St Pancras church itself, as SeanT reminds us occasionally, might be one of the oldest churches in the country. Though I still prefer the ancient timber church at Greensted and the Roman barn-church of St Peter-in-the-Wall in Essex.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732

    RobD said:

    Argh, yet more delays for Heathrow?

    Yeah but I've given you a thread on AV.
    It's hardly a thread on AV if it's mentioned only at the end of the post script... still, better than nothing :D
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,769
    edited October 2016
    Jobabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Have we all seen that Paddy is paying out on Clinton win?

    Yep - but I wouldn't read too much into it, they may have to pay out on Trump too...
    It's a normal gimmick from them – have they ever got it wrong?
    Greek referendum.

    However it is worth it from a marketing perspective.

    And Louis Van Gaal next out ! (I benefited from that one :) )
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,347
    edited October 2016
    Jobabob said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Have we all seen that Paddy is paying out on Clinton win?

    Yep - but I wouldn't read too much into it, they may have to pay out on Trump too...
    It's a normal gimmick from them – have they ever got it wrong?
    Was it paddy power or another bookmaker that called Tory majority really really early on night on GE 2015? One company definitely did a video within an hour or two of the exit poll & said no ontwon't be largest party, it will be will be Tory majority.
  • JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    Jobabob said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "Heathrow is a stupid place to build an additional runway. Its far too close to London, its got limited and highly congested transport links, it blights the lives of all the people around it. But there doesn't seem to be a viable proposal for a replacement hub airport never mind the cost of new transport links and people would need to be able to commute there. So with few options Heathrow is the only place to build an additional runway."

    Its no wonder this country fails to compete with other countries. We're terrified of infrastructure projects. Never mind the benefits to the economy of the construction phase, never mind the long term economic growth, it might upset the NIMBYs. So lets pretend all investment = subsidy, brand it hard left economics and not bother. Aftwer all there's more money to be made now flogging everything off to johnny foreigner and who cares about the peons.

    Frit.

    As posted further down, we're a nation of NIMBY's because, since 1947, we've been stuck with the Town and Country Planning Act which means any major project (and even a lot of small scale local projects) have to jump through hoops to get anything done.

    That said, if someone was planning to put a runway or a road or a railway line through your house I suppose you and your MP wouldn't be very happy...
    Truth is, you can't make an omelette without making eggs. The Eurostar line went through an ancient graveyard in Islington. Pretty horrible for the relatives.

    (Snip)
    There's an interesting (to me at least) story related to that at St Pancras. When the Midland built their line to the new St Pancras terminus, it passed through the graveyard of St Pancras Old church.

    There was controversy over that, so a young architect was put in charge of the disinterment. His name? Thomas Hardy. Some claim that the sombre tone of his books and poems was in some way set by the experience.

    St Pancras church itself, as SeanT reminds us occasionally, might be one of the oldest churches in the country. Though I still prefer the ancient timber church at Greensted and the Roman barn-church of St Peter-in-the-Wall in Essex.
    I have never visited it.

    Now I shall.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Argh, yet more delays for Heathrow?

    Yeah but I've given you a thread on AV.
    It's hardly a thread on AV if it's mentioned only at the end of the post script... still, better than nothing :D
    2011 referendum:

    NO to AV 68%
    YES to AV 32%

    :innocent:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139

    GIN1138 said:

    "Heathrow is a stupid place to build an additional runway. Its far too close to London, its got limited and highly congested transport links, it blights the lives of all the people around it. But there doesn't seem to be a viable proposal for a replacement hub airport never mind the cost of new transport links and people would need to be able to commute there. So with few options Heathrow is the only place to build an additional runway."

    Its no wonder this country fails to compete with other countries. We're terrified of infrastructure projects. Never mind the benefits to the economy of the construction phase, never mind the long term economic growth, it might upset the NIMBYs. So lets pretend all investment = subsidy, brand it hard left economics and not bother. Aftwer all there's more money to be made now flogging everything off to johnny foreigner and who cares about the peons.

    Frit.

    As posted further down, we're a nation of NIMBY's because, since 1947, we've been stuck with the Town and Country Planning Act which means any major project (and even a lot of small scale local projects) have to jump through hoops to get anything done.

    That said, if someone was planning to put a runway or a road or a railway line through your house I suppose you and your MP wouldn't be very happy...

    Mostly I think it's a compensation issue. If you paid a bonus to all those who lost their homes or were affected, it would go through much more easily.

    They do, at least for CPO. The argument is that it's not enough - ISTR up to 10%. Also, nowadays planning blight is taken into account when deciding the price - a welcome change.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Argh, yet more delays for Heathrow?

    Yeah but I've given you a thread on AV.
    It's hardly a thread on AV if it's mentioned only at the end of the post script... still, better than nothing :D
    2011 referendum:

    NO to AV 68%
    YES to AV 32%

    :innocent:
    68% of PBers voted for no more AV threads? Heresy!!
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Argh, yet more delays for Heathrow?

    Yeah but I've given you a thread on AV.
    It's hardly a thread on AV if it's mentioned only at the end of the post script... still, better than nothing :D
    2011 referendum:

    NO to AV 68%
    YES to AV 32%

    :innocent:
    68% of PBers voted for no more AV threads? Heresy!!
    AV is the TSE Gordon Brown of voting systems :p
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,872
    Awful decision and / or media management on Heathrow. I'm not sure which is worse.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    Jobabob said:

    Jobabob said:

    GIN1138 said:

    "Heathrow is a stupid place to build an additional runway. Its far too close to London, its got limited and highly congested transport links, it blights the lives of all the people around it. But there doesn't seem to be a viable proposal for a replacement hub airport never mind the cost of new transport links and people would need to be able to commute there. So with few options Heathrow is the only place to build an additional runway."

    Its no wonder this country fails to compete with other countries. We're terrified of infrastructure projects. Never mind the benefits to the economy of the construction phase, never mind the long term economic growth, it might upset the NIMBYs. So lets pretend all investment = subsidy, brand it hard left economics and not bother. Aftwer all there's more money to be made now flogging everything off to johnny foreigner and who cares about the peons.

    Frit.

    As posted further down, we're a nation of NIMBY's because, since 1947, we've been stuck with the Town and Country Planning Act which means any major project (and even a lot of small scale local projects) have to jump through hoops to get anything done.

    That said, if someone was planning to put a runway or a road or a railway line through your house I suppose you and your MP wouldn't be very happy...
    Truth is, you can't make an omelette without making eggs. The Eurostar line went through an ancient graveyard in Islington. Pretty horrible for the relatives.

    (Snip)
    There's an interesting (to me at least) story related to that at St Pancras. When the Midland built their line to the new St Pancras terminus, it passed through the graveyard of St Pancras Old church.

    There was controversy over that, so a young architect was put in charge of the disinterment. His name? Thomas Hardy. Some claim that the sombre tone of his books and poems was in some way set by the experience.

    St Pancras church itself, as SeanT reminds us occasionally, might be one of the oldest churches in the country. Though I still prefer the ancient timber church at Greensted and the Roman barn-church of St Peter-in-the-Wall in Essex.
    I have never visited it.

    Now I shall.
    Good. :)

    Make sure you see the Hardy Tree:
    http://www.uncoveringlondon.co.uk/the-hardy-tree.htm
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,725
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Observations:

    1. "Official Sensitive" means "on Twitter".
    2. Option of "no expansion" ruled out.
    3. Heathrow 3rd runway will never be built.

    So, Heathrow is NOT delayed. This is about as fast as it could be (which is very slow, admittedly).

    Nabavi vs Rentoul...

    Interesting.

    How long does an airport runway normally take to get built ?
    Stansted:

    First proposed - 1963 (not shortlisted)
    Proposed again - 1973
    Recommended - 1984
    Opened - 1991
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,139
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Observations:

    1. "Official Sensitive" means "on Twitter".
    2. Option of "no expansion" ruled out.
    3. Heathrow 3rd runway will never be built.

    So, Heathrow is NOT delayed. This is about as fast as it could be (which is very slow, admittedly).

    Nabavi vs Rentoul...

    Interesting.

    How long does an airport runway normally take to get built ?
    Stansted:

    First proposed - 1963 (not shortlisted)
    Proposed again - 1973
    Recommended - 1984
    Opened - 1991
    Is Stansted that new? Wow.
  • This is very confusing about Heathrow. Has a decision been made and now its going to consultation as that's a legally required next step, or has this been kicked into the long grass AGAIN?

    I don't understand how we've gone about a decade discussing this already under three Prime Ministers and with a major report if there hasn't been a consultation yet. Surely that should have been done by now already and should have fed into the Airports Commission's recommendation?
  • IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Observations:

    1. "Official Sensitive" means "on Twitter".
    2. Option of "no expansion" ruled out.
    3. Heathrow 3rd runway will never be built.

    So, Heathrow is NOT delayed. This is about as fast as it could be (which is very slow, admittedly).

    Nabavi vs Rentoul...

    Interesting.

    How long does an airport runway normally take to get built ?
    Stansted:

    First proposed - 1963 (not shortlisted)
    Proposed again - 1973
    Recommended - 1984
    Opened - 1991
    Stansted's original terminal building opened in.... 1969!
  • IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Observations:

    1. "Official Sensitive" means "on Twitter".
    2. Option of "no expansion" ruled out.
    3. Heathrow 3rd runway will never be built.

    So, Heathrow is NOT delayed. This is about as fast as it could be (which is very slow, admittedly).

    Nabavi vs Rentoul...

    Interesting.

    How long does an airport runway normally take to get built ?
    Stansted:

    First proposed - 1963 (not shortlisted)
    Proposed again - 1973
    Recommended - 1984
    Opened - 1991
    Is Stansted that new? Wow.
    Nope, its original terminal building opened as long ago as 1969!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,121

    This is very confusing about Heathrow. Has a decision been made and now its going to consultation as that's a legally required next step, or has this been kicked into the long grass AGAIN?

    I don't understand how we've gone about a decade discussing this already under three Prime Ministers and with a major report if there hasn't been a consultation yet. Surely that should have been done by now already and should have fed into the Airports Commission's recommendation?

    A decision has been made (the government is going to announce it's in favour of the third runway next week) and it's going out for consultation as the next week.

    Of course, it could be "halted" at consultation of a variety of reasons...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,732
    GIN1138 said:

    This is very confusing about Heathrow. Has a decision been made and now its going to consultation as that's a legally required next step, or has this been kicked into the long grass AGAIN?

    I don't understand how we've gone about a decade discussing this already under three Prime Ministers and with a major report if there hasn't been a consultation yet. Surely that should have been done by now already and should have fed into the Airports Commission's recommendation?

    A decision has been made (the government is going to announce it's in favour of the third runway next week) and it's going out for consultation as the next week.

    Of course, it could be "halted" at consultation of a variety of reasons...
    Didn't they just have a big consultation exercise?
This discussion has been closed.