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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » New YouGov polling finds REMAIN voters far from being reconcil

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  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is basically begging the SNP to hold a vote on having the Referendum for realsies and setting a date.

    May then refuses?
    Scotland then holds pseudo Referendum?

    I don't get May's angle here.
    I imagine she's daring them. Which is exactly what I would do. They will have to get it past the Westminster Parliament, who aren't going to be minded to grant it but might if there is a three line whip. Then they'll have to get it past the Lords, who will be even more reluctant I imagine. Then the delay that will cause will push it back towards the actual date of Brexit and the known outcome of that.

    Then if I was May, I'd set the date, and let the Scots get on with it, make it clear that its a Scottish matter and that Westminster won't run any campaign at all.
  • Options
    Speedy said:

    Scott_P said:

    @britainelects: Scottish independence poll:
    Yes: 39%
    No: 47%
    (via BMG / 28 Sep - 04 Oct)

    What will the SNP do when it loses a second time ?
    Shame Tessy doesn't have the balls..
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    IanB2 said:

    Jobabob said:

    I'm not sure why Mike says this YouGov survey shows that Remainers aren't reconciled to the result. It shows that they still think there will be economic damage, which is hardly a controversial point and in any case is different from not being reconciled to the result.

    I thought it had been established that it doesn't matter what Remainers think, anyway.

    Yes, after all, what are 16 million people going to do about it when the traitorous pinko subversives are LOCKED UP IN THE TOWER?
    And building such a large tower will be a huge infrastructural investment boost for the economy.
    Its going to be beautiful, people will come and take pictures of it! Who's going to pay for it? FRANCE!

    MTTOLGA (Make the Tower of London Great Again)
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Scott_P said:

    @britainelects: Scottish independence poll:
    Yes: 39%
    No: 47%
    (via BMG / 28 Sep - 04 Oct)

    Looks winnable for Sturgeon. Salmond started from 20-odd% support. If May carries on with the "you can't have another referendum" schtick, it becomes easier for Nicola.
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,853
    On topic: I hope and trust that YouGov are going to keep track of this particular question over the months and years to come.

    How very stark the divide is at the moment, to me that is also an indicator of how early in the Brexit process we are, one side or the other changing their mind on the economics will be a good indirect slider bar towards the ultimate destination.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Talking bout my generation
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    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,902
    edited October 2016

    Mr. Enjineeya, can't speak for others, but my view is that we'll have economic turbulence over the short or medium term but that long term the economy is better served out of the EU.

    I wonder how many Leave voters will be as patient as you (edit: if, indeed, you are correct in your forecast).
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    And the post-debate polls continue to show a strong Trump bounce (the Fox poll seems to be an outlier):

    N.Hampshire ,WBUR, changes from 2 weeks go.

    Hillary 41 -1
    Trump 38 +3
    Johnson 11
    Stein 3

    http://www.wbur.org/politicker/2016/10/14/poll-trump-clinton-new-hampshire
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Interesting, TUD.

    Is that poll among Scots or all UK respondents?
  • Options
    Jobabob said:

    Sean_F said:

    IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Jobabob said:

    Do these Yougov figures overstate the number of 18-24 voters compared to the 65+ voters, that will actually vote?

    Interesting age skew:

    Net 'right to leave':

    18-24: -35
    25-49: -12
    50-64: +13
    65+ : +37
    A massive Remain majority for those of working age, who pay for the country.

    Who'd a thunk it?
    Most of the over 65's will have spent 40 to 50 years working and paying taxes.
    True, but that's not really the point, is it? They are now drawing on assets that they are relying upon the younger working population to generate.
    The original point is that they are somehow, spongers, whose votes are less legitimate than younger age cohorts.
    You inferred that. I said no such thing. I merely pointed out that Remain has a large majority among the economically active.
    Again that has not been demonstrated. The 18 to 24 are mostly not economically active and not all 65+ are not active.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,997
    Speedy said:

    And the post-debate polls continue to show a strong Trump bounce (the Fox poll seems to be an outlier):

    N.Hampshire ,WBUR, changes from 2 weeks go.

    Hillary 41 -1
    Trump 38 +3
    Johnson 11
    Stein 3

    http://www.wbur.org/politicker/2016/10/14/poll-trump-clinton-new-hampshire

    I have to say I'm surprised that Trump is not consistently behind by 10%+
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jobabob said:

    I'm not sure why Mike says this YouGov survey shows that Remainers aren't reconciled to the result. It shows that they still think there will be economic damage, which is hardly a controversial point and in any case is different from not being reconciled to the result.

    I thought it had been established that it doesn't matter what Remainers think, anyway.

    Yes, after all, what are 16 million people going to do about it when the traitorous pinko subversives are LOCKED UP IN THE TOWER?
    And building such a large tower will be a huge infrastructural investment boost for the economy.
    Its going to be beautiful, people will come and take pictures of it! Who's going to pay for it? FRANCE!

    MTTOLGA (Make the Tower of London Great Again)
    Why not go the whole hog and build a giant wall on the M25, and shove all the Remainer Subversive Pinko Liberal Elite Traitors inside, like a Escape From New York-style penal colony?

    We could call it: LONDON.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Jamie Ross
    A new poll from @BMGResearch has support for Scottish independence down at 39%. https://t.co/IRaLBWPlmj #SNP16 https://t.co/PekemtRg55
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,997
    Jobabob said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jobabob said:

    I'm not sure why Mike says this YouGov survey shows that Remainers aren't reconciled to the result. It shows that they still think there will be economic damage, which is hardly a controversial point and in any case is different from not being reconciled to the result.

    I thought it had been established that it doesn't matter what Remainers think, anyway.

    Yes, after all, what are 16 million people going to do about it when the traitorous pinko subversives are LOCKED UP IN THE TOWER?
    And building such a large tower will be a huge infrastructural investment boost for the economy.
    Its going to be beautiful, people will come and take pictures of it! Who's going to pay for it? FRANCE!

    MTTOLGA (Make the Tower of London Great Again)
    Why not go the whole hog and build a giant wall on the M25, and shove all the Remainer Subversive Pinko Liberal Elite Traitors inside, like a Escape From New York-style penal colony?

    We could call it: LONDON.
    No need, we'll send them for re-education.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    TonyE said:

    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is basically begging the SNP to hold a vote on having the Referendum for realsies and setting a date.

    May then refuses?
    Scotland then holds pseudo Referendum?

    I don't get May's angle here.
    I imagine she's daring them. Which is exactly what I would do. They will have to get it past the Westminster Parliament, who aren't going to be minded to grant it but might if there is a three line whip. Then they'll have to get it past the Lords, who will be even more reluctant I imagine. Then the delay that will cause will push it back towards the actual date of Brexit and the known outcome of that.

    Then if I was May, I'd set the date, and let the Scots get on with it, make it clear that its a Scottish matter and that Westminster won't run any campaign at all.
    HM the Queen is 90.

    Nobody likes Charles.

    Referendums are never about what they are ostensibly about (before the analogy ban, I would have said something about that being like marital rows.)

    Do the math. If I were Sturgeon I would be holding out for a flowering of Scots republicanism following the accession of Charles.
  • Options
    May should back a second Indyref on condition of the SNP abstaining on English only legislation (like fox hunting, Sunday trading and grammar schools) and passing full EVEL max.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,298
    edited October 2016
    Jobabob said:

    Interesting, TUD.

    Is that poll among Scots or all UK respondents?
    Not sure. Don't know if they have their own polling operation or if it's from someone else's poll. My (possibly faulty) memory tells me Sky tends to work with Yougov.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Ishmael_X said:

    TonyE said:

    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is basically begging the SNP to hold a vote on having the Referendum for realsies and setting a date.

    May then refuses?
    Scotland then holds pseudo Referendum?

    I don't get May's angle here.
    I imagine she's daring them. Which is exactly what I would do. They will have to get it past the Westminster Parliament, who aren't going to be minded to grant it but might if there is a three line whip. Then they'll have to get it past the Lords, who will be even more reluctant I imagine. Then the delay that will cause will push it back towards the actual date of Brexit and the known outcome of that.

    Then if I was May, I'd set the date, and let the Scots get on with it, make it clear that its a Scottish matter and that Westminster won't run any campaign at all.
    HM the Queen is 90.

    Nobody likes Charles.

    Referendums are never about what they are ostensibly about (before the analogy ban, I would have said something about that being like marital rows.)

    Do the math. If I were Sturgeon I would be holding out for a flowering of Scots republicanism following the accession of Charles.
    If she passes the legislation as a threat, then May picks the timing. Sturgeon should know this, it won't be a moment of her choosing because constitutional issues are reserved. May will also have to knock down the Scottish act in the Scottish courts first to uphold the balance of the powers between the two parliaments, before she passes new Scots referendum bill in the Westminster Parliament, so that no precedent is set.
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    If I'd been abused by someone I'd have a vendetta against them too.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,091
    Sean_F said:

    Jobabob said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jobabob said:

    I'm not sure why Mike says this YouGov survey shows that Remainers aren't reconciled to the result. It shows that they still think there will be economic damage, which is hardly a controversial point and in any case is different from not being reconciled to the result.

    I thought it had been established that it doesn't matter what Remainers think, anyway.

    Yes, after all, what are 16 million people going to do about it when the traitorous pinko subversives are LOCKED UP IN THE TOWER?
    And building such a large tower will be a huge infrastructural investment boost for the economy.
    Its going to be beautiful, people will come and take pictures of it! Who's going to pay for it? FRANCE!

    MTTOLGA (Make the Tower of London Great Again)
    Why not go the whole hog and build a giant wall on the M25, and shove all the Remainer Subversive Pinko Liberal Elite Traitors inside, like a Escape From New York-style penal colony?

    We could call it: LONDON.
    No need, we'll send them for re-education.
    Whist all the leavers will need to be sent for just an education. :)
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,445
    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Except as far as I can see the article doesn't establish whether it is the same "Jessica Leeds".

    As it says: "What are the odds this is two different women with the exact same name, of the same age?"

    I don't know, but America is a very big country.

  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    Sean_F said:

    Jobabob said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jobabob said:

    I'm not sure why Mike says this YouGov survey shows that Remainers aren't reconciled to the result. It shows that they still think there will be economic damage, which is hardly a controversial point and in any case is different from not being reconciled to the result.

    I thought it had been established that it doesn't matter what Remainers think, anyway.

    Yes, after all, what are 16 million people going to do about it when the traitorous pinko subversives are LOCKED UP IN THE TOWER?
    And building such a large tower will be a huge infrastructural investment boost for the economy.
    Its going to be beautiful, people will come and take pictures of it! Who's going to pay for it? FRANCE!

    MTTOLGA (Make the Tower of London Great Again)
    Why not go the whole hog and build a giant wall on the M25, and shove all the Remainer Subversive Pinko Liberal Elite Traitors inside, like a Escape From New York-style penal colony?

    We could call it: LONDON.
    No need, we'll send them for re-education.
    Brexit building boost for UK schools
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Interesting, BMG didn't poll the IndyRef as far as I can tell so we have nothing to compare them against.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    Jobabob said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jobabob said:

    I'm not sure why Mike says this YouGov survey shows that Remainers aren't reconciled to the result. It shows that they still think there will be economic damage, which is hardly a controversial point and in any case is different from not being reconciled to the result.

    I thought it had been established that it doesn't matter what Remainers think, anyway.

    Yes, after all, what are 16 million people going to do about it when the traitorous pinko subversives are LOCKED UP IN THE TOWER?
    And building such a large tower will be a huge infrastructural investment boost for the economy.
    Its going to be beautiful, people will come and take pictures of it! Who's going to pay for it? FRANCE!

    MTTOLGA (Make the Tower of London Great Again)
    Why not go the whole hog and build a giant wall on the M25, and shove all the Remainer Subversive Pinko Liberal Elite Traitors inside, like a Escape From New York-style penal colony?

    We could call it: LONDON.
    Labour camps run by the minority of Leave voters. You will work, or you will die. I like the sound of that, as a leave voter. :D
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Survey question was "If a referendum were held tomorrow, on whether Scotland should leave or remain a member of the United Kingdom, how would you vote?"
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    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Sean_F said:

    Speedy said:

    And the post-debate polls continue to show a strong Trump bounce (the Fox poll seems to be an outlier):

    N.Hampshire ,WBUR, changes from 2 weeks go.

    Hillary 41 -1
    Trump 38 +3
    Johnson 11
    Stein 3

    http://www.wbur.org/politicker/2016/10/14/poll-trump-clinton-new-hampshire

    I have to say I'm surprised that Trump is not consistently behind by 10%+
    Since the debate polls from all swing states give a range of a Trump lead of 1 to a Hillary lead of 6.

    That N.Hampshire is back in play is significant, in that it re-opens the non Pennsylvania route for Trump.
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    https://twitter.com/JimmyRushmore/status/786900327450697728

    That is btw an extraordinary shade of hair - 'Nicotine Sunrise by L'Oreal'.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    And if you take out the DKs for a headline figure it's 45/55
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''don't know, but America is a very big country.''

    Actually, that's a good point. Even so, I still have my doubts about the way the Dems are going about trying to beat Trump.

    The sh8tstorm is enormous, and yet he is still standing. I wonder if that is counting for something with US voters.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    :lol:

    BBC Breakfast accidentally shows footage of escaped gorilla instead of Nicola Sturgeon https://t.co/fyZPX8golZ https://t.co/TNCjrEVSEA
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    TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Except as far as I can see the article doesn't establish whether it is the same "Jessica Leeds".

    As it says: "What are the odds this is two different women with the exact same name, of the same age?"

    I don't know, but America is a very big country.

    The problem is that in the USA now, there is no divide between journalism and campaigning (where there used to be). If this allegation turns out to be correct, and the story is falling apart, the NYT is going to suffer some fall out.

    If I recall, the first attack on this story was that the description of the incident didn't make sense due to the design on Airplane seats in first class having no movable armrests in the 80's.

    For Trump, if he knocks this down clean, that's it. They can't keep coming up with new claims with anything like the hope of attention that they have had so far - and it will change the election. Probably not enough to change the result, but it will alter the shape. If Clinton is linked to any of the journos directly, or any email is leaked between her team and the paper, it gets even closer.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Final comment, they weigh by 2015 General Election vote but not 2016 Scottish Government Vote.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Well if he had sexually abused her she might want to harass Trump and it would be justified grounds for having a vendetta. I don't see how this disproves or proves anything either way. I'll be interested to see if Trump takes it to court, he might not win.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,994
    Alistair said:

    Final comment, they weigh by 2015 General Election vote but not 2016 Scottish Government Vote.

    With all things said, Good for Yes? :D
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Jobabob said:

    Scott_P said:

    No because I say so, rarely turns out well!
    I am really struggling to grasp May's thinking here
    She's holding the Scottish government to its promises.
  • Options
    TonyE said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Except as far as I can see the article doesn't establish whether it is the same "Jessica Leeds".

    As it says: "What are the odds this is two different women with the exact same name, of the same age?"

    I don't know, but America is a very big country.

    The problem is that in the USA now, there is no divide between journalism and campaigning (where there used to be). If this allegation turns out to be correct, and the story is falling apart, the NYT is going to suffer some fall out.

    If I recall, the first attack on this story was that the description of the incident didn't make sense due to the design on Airplane seats in first class having no movable armrests in the 80's.

    For Trump, if he knocks this down clean, that's it. They can't keep coming up with new claims with anything like the hope of attention that they have had so far - and it will change the election. Probably not enough to change the result, but it will alter the shape. If Clinton is linked to any of the journos directly, or any email is leaked between her team and the paper, it gets even closer.
    Ultimately this will confirm pre existing prejudices. Dems will think no smoke without fire. Trumpists will think he's being persecuted by the liberal media elite.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Final comment, they weigh by 2015 General Election vote but not 2016 Scottish Government Vote.

    With all things said, Good for Yes? :D
    Weighing by 2015 vote probably means No should be higher.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,994
    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    Final comment, they weigh by 2015 General Election vote but not 2016 Scottish Government Vote.

    With all things said, Good for Yes? :D
    Weighing by 2015 vote probably means No should be higher.
    Well blow me down!
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    RobD said:

    Except that's for one year only.
    And it says "could".
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    FPT:

    Not sure if this link has already been posted. It's got some good info on the Brexit negotiating priorities of different EU countries, and also conveniently summaries some of the trade and migration statistics by country:

    http://cicero-group.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Brexit-negotiations-The-View-from-the-EU.pdf

    That's a very concise and helpful summary.
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    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited October 2016

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Except as far as I can see the article doesn't establish whether it is the same "Jessica Leeds".

    As it says: "What are the odds this is two different women with the exact same name, of the same age?"

    I don't know, but America is a very big country.

    I bet if this had been an allegation against a candidate with the machine backing of GOP or DNC, all the minions would have been all over the inconsistencies / issues in hours.

    It is where Trump is totally exposed, when shit hits the fan, he is isolated and very poorly advised / doesn't listen about how to react. It is so obvious when the tape dropped what was coming down the pipe, but Team Trump has been battered all over the place.

    And comparison, Clinton knew wikileaks was coming and they have plan to deal with it.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    MaxPB said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Well if he had sexually abused her she might want to harass Trump and it would be justified grounds for having a vendetta. I don't see how this disproves or proves anything either way. I'll be interested to see if Trump takes it to court, he might not win.
    35yrs later and 28days from an election? Give me a break. It's an enormous smear operation.

    Sexual assault is a nebulous term that invokes moral outraging. It's desperate Hillary stuff.
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    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    taffys said:

    ''don't know, but America is a very big country.''

    Actually, that's a good point. Even so, I still have my doubts about the way the Dems are going about trying to beat Trump.

    The sh8tstorm is enormous, and yet he is still standing. I wonder if that is counting for something with US voters.

    Widely available at 6.5
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    If only they had the objectivity and church/state separation that we enjoy in the UK. When I read the Daily Mail or the Guardian I know I am getting the facts and nothing but the facts.
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Don't get mad, get rich.

    Put your house on Trump at 6.5, widely available at a bookie near you.

    Presumably you are already heavily long on him?
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Jonathan said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    If only they had the objectivity and church/state separation that we enjoy in the UK. When I read the Daily Mail or the Guardian I know I am getting the facts and nothing but the facts.
    Is it chilly on your high horse? There's a massive difference between bias and lying.
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    MaxPB said:

    Jobabob said:

    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    Jobabob said:

    I'm not sure why Mike says this YouGov survey shows that Remainers aren't reconciled to the result. It shows that they still think there will be economic damage, which is hardly a controversial point and in any case is different from not being reconciled to the result.

    I thought it had been established that it doesn't matter what Remainers think, anyway.

    Yes, after all, what are 16 million people going to do about it when the traitorous pinko subversives are LOCKED UP IN THE TOWER?
    And building such a large tower will be a huge infrastructural investment boost for the economy.
    Its going to be beautiful, people will come and take pictures of it! Who's going to pay for it? FRANCE!

    MTTOLGA (Make the Tower of London Great Again)
    Why not go the whole hog and build a giant wall on the M25, and shove all the Remainer Subversive Pinko Liberal Elite Traitors inside, like a Escape From New York-style penal colony?

    We could call it: LONDON.
    Labour camps run by the minority of Leave voters. You will work, or you will die. I like the sound of that, as a leave voter. :D
    Brexit jobs boost for patriotic workers
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    PlatoSaid said:

    MaxPB said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Well if he had sexually abused her she might want to harass Trump and it would be justified grounds for having a vendetta. I don't see how this disproves or proves anything either way. I'll be interested to see if Trump takes it to court, he might not win.
    35yrs later and 28days from an election? Give me a break. It's an enormous smear operation.

    Sexual assault is a nebulous term that invokes moral outraging. It's desperate Hillary stuff.
    But I thought a history of harassment has been uncovered?
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    QTWTAIN
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    MaxPB said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Well if he had sexually abused her she might want to harass Trump and it would be justified grounds for having a vendetta. I don't see how this disproves or proves anything either way. I'll be interested to see if Trump takes it to court, he might not win.
    35yrs later and 28days from an election? Give me a break. It's an enormous smear operation.

    Sexual assault is a nebulous term that invokes moral outraging. It's desperate Hillary stuff.
    Desperate? She's miles in the lead.
  • Options
    JobabobJobabob Posts: 3,807
    "Sexual assault is a nebulous term that invokes moral outraging. It's desperate Hillary stuff."

    Stick it in the PB album.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    PlatoSaid said:

    Jonathan said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    If only they had the objectivity and church/state separation that we enjoy in the UK. When I read the Daily Mail or the Guardian I know I am getting the facts and nothing but the facts.
    Is it chilly on your high horse? There's a massive difference between bias and lying.
    Is there a massive difference? Interesting question. Arguably bias is lying by omission.


  • Options

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    No idea on poll bending, but.
    There are clearly some very dubious polling techniques and "rules" in USA. There is that one black guy anomaly altering a poll's results depending upon what side of the bed he gets out of. I know of no UK polling company that would operate like that. Worst we have are some inaccurate age sampling etc which I use to guide my betting accordingly.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,292
    edited October 2016

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    No idea on poll bending, but.
    There are clearly some very dubious polling techniques and "rules" in USA. There is that one black guy anomaly altering a poll's results depending upon what side of the bed he gets out of. I know of no UK polling company that would operate like that. Worst we have are some inaccurate age sampling etc which I use to guide my betting accordingly.
    The fact 538 has to grade polling organizations, with some basically given junk bond status, and other are auto adjusted because they are have an inbuilt bias to one side or the other, is really unacceptable situation.
  • Options
    TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited October 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    .....The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    What shocked me was that report (quoted on PB) that there were circa 30 newspapers endorsing Clinton and none Trump.
  • Options

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    No idea on poll bending, but.
    There are clearly some very dubious polling techniques and "rules" in USA. There is that one black guy anomaly altering a poll's results depending upon what side of the bed he gets out of. I know of no UK polling company that would operate like that. Worst we have are some inaccurate age sampling etc which I use to guide my betting accordingly.
    The fact 538 has to grade polling organization, with some basically given junk bond status, is really bad situation.
    They need an American Polling Council
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Boston Bobblehead
    Why Americans HATE #MSM 24/7 coverage for every unsubstantiated claim while IGNORING hard evidence against Hillary!
    https://t.co/8fsrw7y7Ul

    This sums up sentiment
  • Options

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    No idea on poll bending, but.
    There are clearly some very dubious polling techniques and "rules" in USA. There is that one black guy anomaly altering a poll's results depending upon what side of the bed he gets out of. I know of no UK polling company that would operate like that. Worst we have are some inaccurate age sampling etc which I use to guide my betting accordingly.
    The fact 538 has to grade polling organization, with some basically given junk bond status, is really bad situation.
    They need an American Polling Council
    Agreed. Something we can export!
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brawJsSUtxk
  • Options

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    No idea on poll bending, but.
    There are clearly some very dubious polling techniques and "rules" in USA. There is that one black guy anomaly altering a poll's results depending upon what side of the bed he gets out of. I know of no UK polling company that would operate like that. Worst we have are some inaccurate age sampling etc which I use to guide my betting accordingly.
    The fact 538 has to grade polling organizations, with some basically given junk bond status, and other are auto adjusted because they are have an inbuilt bias to one side or the other, is really unacceptable situation.
    Says it all.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,501
    Hoping the US isn't a nightmare vision of our own political future
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    PlatoSaid said:

    Boston Bobblehead
    Why Americans HATE #MSM 24/7 coverage for every unsubstantiated claim while IGNORING hard evidence against Hillary!
    https://t.co/8fsrw7y7Ul

    This sums up sentiment

    I appreciate that you're on a mission to offer balance to the views on PB for the upcoming election.

    Do you actually like Trump and look forward to seeing him as president on his own merits?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    IanB2 said:

    Hoping the US isn't a nightmare vision of our own political future

    We have our own nightmare vision to look forward to.
  • Options

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brawJsSUtxk
    I preferred the talking dog.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    Alas TSE, your post seems to have become invisible. Sad.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,074
    I don't know whether anyone has seen today's Bank of England Credit Conditions Survey (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/other/monetary/ccs/2016/16q3.pdf)

    It contains a couple of things that I would suggest are very worrying for the UK economy:

    1. Corporate demand for loans investment fell off very sharply. This will likely weigh on the Gross Capital Formation part of Q4 GDP. Right now, firms should be taking advantage of the weakness of Sterling to build capacity in the UK, and that's simply not happening. Hopefully that will change in Q4.

    2. Credit card and other unsecured personal lending increased markedly in the quarter.

    Together, these two suggest that the UK economy is becoming even less balanced, with consumer spending continuing at an unsustainable level, while business investment is subdued.

    Hopefully, the Q4 survey will see investment tick up, thanks to the weakness of sterling. This report is a salutatory reminder that while the headlines have been positive there are still substantial risks ahead of us.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    I think the ever wild rantings of this poster on the POTUS elections need to be put in the ignore category. If ever a lie down in a dark room for 3 weeks were needed......
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    TonyE said:

    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:
    That is basically begging the SNP to hold a vote on having the Referendum for realsies and setting a date.

    May then refuses?
    Scotland then holds pseudo Referendum?

    I don't get May's angle here.
    I imagine she's daring them. Which is exactly what I would do. They will have to get it past the Westminster Parliament, who aren't going to be minded to grant it but might if there is a three line whip. Then they'll have to get it past the Lords, who will be even more reluctant I imagine. Then the delay that will cause will push it back towards the actual date of Brexit and the known outcome of that.

    Then if I was May, I'd set the date, and let the Scots get on with it, make it clear that its a Scottish matter and that Westminster won't run any campaign at all.
    I don't want to put ideas in their heads, but if I were the SNP I'd bide my time until there is some bad news on the Brexit front. It wouldn't be too difficult to come up with some point of vital national importance to Scotland that is being bargained away in the negotiations. Then resign en masse and fight by elections in all Scottish Westminster seats on a promise to leave the UK if elected. It would have all the moral force of a referendum with the added bonus of the SNP MPs having risked their seats on the outcome and hence put their own skin in the game. The icing on the cake is that it can be done at a moment of their choosing. That's what I'd do anyway.
  • Options

    That's a very concise and helpful summary.

    Yes, it's really well done.

    One point struck me. As one would expect, they say that "The Visegrad Group will oppose any Brexit agreement that limits freedom of movement, particularly access to the labour market for its nationals."

    However, the effect of that priority can work in two opposite ways. Will the Visegrads prioritise the abstract principle that FoM is a sacred part of the Single Market - implying that they would oppose any deal which gave Britain good trading terms unless there is 100% FoM - or would they give most priority to the practical point of how easy it is for their citizens to come and work here? That's an important distinction, because the former would mean a very 'hard-line' position likely in practice to lead to a worse outcome (a very 'hard' Brexit') as regards the second priority.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    rcs1000 said:

    I don't know whether anyone has seen today's Bank of England Credit Conditions Survey (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/other/monetary/ccs/2016/16q3.pdf)

    It contains a couple of things that I would suggest are very worrying for the UK economy:

    1. Corporate demand for loans investment fell off very sharply. This will likely weigh on the Gross Capital Formation part of Q4 GDP. Right now, firms should be taking advantage of the weakness of Sterling to build capacity in the UK, and that's simply not happening. Hopefully that will change in Q4.

    2. Credit card and other unsecured personal lending increased markedly in the quarter.

    Together, these two suggest that the UK economy is becoming even less balanced, with consumer spending continuing at an unsustainable level, while business investment is subdued.

    Hopefully, the Q4 survey will see investment tick up, thanks to the weakness of sterling. This report is a salutatory reminder that while the headlines have been positive there are still substantial risks ahead of us.

    I don't think business investment will pick up until the government makes clear what flavour of Brexit we're getting. Even if it is tariffs, the certainty will help.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,151

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    No idea on poll bending, but.
    There are clearly some very dubious polling techniques and "rules" in USA. There is that one black guy anomaly altering a poll's results depending upon what side of the bed he gets out of. I know of no UK polling company that would operate like that. Worst we have are some inaccurate age sampling etc which I use to guide my betting accordingly.
    The fact 538 has to grade polling organizations, with some basically given junk bond status, and other are auto adjusted because they are have an inbuilt bias to one side or the other, is really unacceptable situation.
    This isn't unique to the US - it would be a helpful thing to do in the UK as well.

    Also note that the "bias" adjustments are just adjustments for where they lean compared to the rest; The point of adjusting for these is that they allow you to compare a poll from one firm to a poll from a different firm. The ones with a House Effect of zero won't necessarily turn out to be the best.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Except as far as I can see the article doesn't establish whether it is the same "Jessica Leeds".

    As it says: "What are the odds this is two different women with the exact same name, of the same age?"

    I don't know, but America is a very big country.

    There are 11 people in the USA named Jessica Leeds
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    PlatoSaid said:

    Boston Bobblehead
    Why Americans HATE #MSM 24/7 coverage for every unsubstantiated claim while IGNORING hard evidence against Hillary!
    https://t.co/8fsrw7y7Ul

    This sums up sentiment

    Ah Fox and Friends - no danger of any 'lean' there.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Jonathan said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Jonathan said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    If only they had the objectivity and church/state separation that we enjoy in the UK. When I read the Daily Mail or the Guardian I know I am getting the facts and nothing but the facts.
    Is it chilly on your high horse? There's a massive difference between bias and lying.
    Is there a massive difference? Interesting question. Arguably bias is lying by omission.


    Lying requires intention, but bias doesn't.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,074
    From Pret, I can confirm that the very pretty girl is indeed from Italy, "outside Bologna". I can also tell you that she loves London, but hates the weather. I did not ask if she was planning to (or would attempt to ) stay post-Brexit, as there were people behind me in the queue who seemed to be under the mistaken impression that I was chatting her up rather than doing research.
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Jonathan said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    If only they had the objectivity and church/state separation that we enjoy in the UK. When I read the Daily Mail or the Guardian I know I am getting the facts and nothing but the facts.
    Is it chilly on your high horse? There's a massive difference between bias and lying.
    Is there a massive difference? Interesting question. Arguably bias is lying by omission.


    Yes there is a massive difference between the two. One is a matter of perspective while the other is a deliberate untruth (a mistaken belief is not a lie even if untrue).

    Eg Paper A claims Corbyn is a dangerous leader whose economics and policies if put into effect would be greatly damaging to the economy and fabric of the nation. Bias. Possibly true, but possibly untrue. Depends what you believe.

    Paper B claims Corbyn is a dangerous traitor who took up arms for the Soviets and Saddam Hussein and has shot British troops. Lie. This isn't true.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,631
    edited October 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    From Pret, I can confirm that the very pretty girl is indeed from Italy, "outside Bologna". I can also tell you that she loves London, but hates the weather. I did not ask if she was planning to (or would attempt to ) stay post-Brexit, as there were people behind me in the queue who seemed to be under the mistaken impression that I was chatting her up rather than doing research.

    Your wife's network of spies reaches that far? And Pret for lunch, Itsu is the clear winner.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405
    When PB is made into a film, one engaging subplot will be the romance between, and eventual marriage of @PlatoSaid and @619.
  • Options
    As the kidz say, 'dafuq'?


    Jeremy Corbyn has praised extraordinary plans to launch a floating House of Commons while repairs are carried out to the Palace of Westminster.

    Labour’s leader said the design for a glass-roofed raft moored on the Thames was “of merit and should be looked at”.


    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-hails-bizarre-plan-for-floating-house-of-commons-on-the-thames-a3369471.html
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    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    .....The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    What shocked me was that report (quoted on PB) that there were circa 30 newspapers endorsing Clinton and none Trump.
    Perhaps that says more about Trump than it does the papers.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,847
    felix said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    I think the ever wild rantings of this poster on the POTUS elections need to be put in the ignore category. If ever a lie down in a dark room for 3 weeks were needed......
    Seeking clarification from wikipedia...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato
    Aristotle merely suggests that Socrates' idea of forms can be discovered through investigation of the natural world, unlike Plato's Forms that exist beyond and outside the ordinary range of human understanding…
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    rcs1000 said:

    From Pret, I can confirm that the very pretty girl is indeed from Italy, "outside Bologna". I can also tell you that she loves London, but hates the weather. I did not ask if she was planning to (or would attempt to ) stay post-Brexit, as there were people behind me in the queue who seemed to be under the mistaken impression that I was chatting her up rather than doing research.

    I can teach you how to chat up a woman without it looking like you're chatting her up.

    My chat up lines are nearly as subtle as my puns.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,501
    edited October 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    From Pret, I can confirm that the very pretty girl is indeed from Italy, "outside Bologna". I can also tell you that she loves London, but hates the weather. I did not ask if she was planning to (or would attempt to ) stay post-Brexit, as there were people behind me in the queue who seemed to be under the mistaken impression that I was chatting her up rather than doing research.

    Like I said in the earlier discussion, she is using the job to pay her way to experience London for a year or two, learning English into the bargain, and the attempted comparison with the employment preferences of our own young people is missing the point entirely.

    Many years ago during my student days, I spent a summer in the Israeli desert doing unskilled manual work for an archaeological dig. Basically a month humping rocks and buckets of earth about in the intense heat, for no pay but free accommodation and food. It allowed me to broaden my horizons spending a summer somewhere I couldn't otherwise have afforded for so long, and I expect the attitudes of the young European Pret workers isn't that different. Obviously if someone back then had offered me the chance to hump rocks in Kent for next to no pay I wouldn't have been interested.
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    felix said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Honestly, anyone who doesn't see this as trench warfare/poll bending is a sheep or liberal confirmation bias.

    The evidence is legion. Hence my WTF outrage. I'm appalled at it - dozens of journalists are in Dems pocket - that isn't reporting - its propaganda as you say.
    Poll bending ? Where? That's a serious allegation, can you provide links from reputable sources ?
    I think the ever wild rantings of this poster on the POTUS elections need to be put in the ignore category. If ever a lie down in a dark room for 3 weeks were needed......
    Hate to nitpick, but you bought into the silliest and most obviously spoof tweet imaginable only yesterday (Liam Fox, Unilever) so your judgment on what to ignore on the internet is hard to take hugely seriously.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    PlatoSaid said:

    MaxPB said:

    taffys said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    I'm shocked

    Paul Joseph Watson
    Trump sexual assault accuser Jessica Leeds has a history of disputes with Trump and a clear vendetta against him. https://t.co/hA8WrDHTel

    You would have thought, wouldn't you, that the NYT would have at least checked that out first.

    But that would have been journalism, instead of propaganda.
    Well if he had sexually abused her she might want to harass Trump and it would be justified grounds for having a vendetta. I don't see how this disproves or proves anything either way. I'll be interested to see if Trump takes it to court, he might not win.
    35yrs later and 28days from an election? Give me a break. It's an enormous smear operation.

    Sexual assault is a nebulous term that invokes moral outraging. It's desperate Hillary stuff.
    If Trump was found deep inside a goat, you'd explain that that the goat walked backwards onto him.

    Step back and look at yourself. Post less and think more.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    That's a very concise and helpful summary.

    Yes, it's really well done.

    One point struck me. As one would expect, they say that "The Visegrad Group will oppose any Brexit agreement that limits freedom of movement, particularly access to the labour market for its nationals."

    However, the effect of that priority can work in two opposite ways. Will the Visegrads prioritise the abstract principle that FoM is a sacred part of the Single Market - implying that they would oppose any deal which gave Britain good trading terms unless there is 100% FoM - or would they give most priority to the practical point of how easy it is for their citizens to come and work here? That's an important distinction, because the former would mean a very 'hard-line' position likely in practice to lead to a worse outcome (a very 'hard' Brexit') as regards the second priority.
    My - not particularly well-informed - reading is that the Visegrad position is that they don't want their citizens to be treated as second class. So they don't want inferior access to benefits or inferior access to the labour market. That implies the former of your hypothetical positions rather than the latter. Given that Romania and Bulgaria have also cut up very rough with Canada over visa requirements, we can probably assume that they will be following a similar line to the Visegrad 4.

    However, my - again not particularly well-informed - reading of their negotiating strategy is that the Visegrad 4 are rather more likely than the western EU members to eat their words if they think they have something on the table that otherwise suits them.
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    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    From Pret, I can confirm that the very pretty girl is indeed from Italy, "outside Bologna". I can also tell you that she loves London, but hates the weather. I did not ask if she was planning to (or would attempt to ) stay post-Brexit, as there were people behind me in the queue who seemed to be under the mistaken impression that I was chatting her up rather than doing research.

    Like I said in the earlier discussion, she is using the job to pay her way to experience London for a year or two, and the attempted comparison with the employment preferences of our own young people is missing the point entirely.

    Many years ago during my student days, I spent a summer in the Israeli desert doing unskilled manual work for an archaeological dig. Basically a month humping rocks and buckets of earth about in the intense heat, for no pay but free accommodation and food. It allowed me to broaden my horizons spending a summer somewhere I couldn't otherwise have afforded for so long, and I expect the attitudes of the young European Pret workers isn't that different. Obviously if someone back then had offered me the chance to hump rocks in Kent for next to no pay I wouldn't have been interested.
    Good point.

    Though I also wonder if those who believe Brits don't do service jobs have ever travelled north of Watford Gap?
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    eekeek Posts: 25,029

    rcs1000 said:

    From Pret, I can confirm that the very pretty girl is indeed from Italy, "outside Bologna". I can also tell you that she loves London, but hates the weather. I did not ask if she was planning to (or would attempt to ) stay post-Brexit, as there were people behind me in the queue who seemed to be under the mistaken impression that I was chatting her up rather than doing research.

    I can teach you how to chat up a woman without it looking like you're chatting her up.

    My chat up lines are nearly as subtle as my puns.
    Aren't you single at the moment?
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    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    From Pret, I can confirm that the very pretty girl is indeed from Italy, "outside Bologna". I can also tell you that she loves London, but hates the weather. I did not ask if she was planning to (or would attempt to ) stay post-Brexit, as there were people behind me in the queue who seemed to be under the mistaken impression that I was chatting her up rather than doing research.

    Like I said in the earlier discussion, she is using the job to pay her way to experience London for a year or two, and the attempted comparison with the employment preferences of our own young people is missing the point entirely.

    Many years ago during my student days, I spent a summer in the Israeli desert doing unskilled manual work for an archaeological dig. Basically a month humping rocks and buckets of earth about in the intense heat, for no pay but free accommodation and food. It allowed me to broaden my horizons spending a summer somewhere I couldn't otherwise have afforded for so long, and I expect the attitudes of the young European Pret workers isn't that different. Obviously if someone back then had offered me the chance to hump rocks in Kent for next to no pay I wouldn't have been interested.
    Good point.

    Though I also wonder if those who believe Brits don't do service jobs have ever travelled north of Watford Gap?
    Can we rename The Watford Gap?

    It's nowhere near Watford.

    Ditto Leeds Castle, which is in the poncey Jessie South and not in the Garden of Eden that is Yorkshire
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    "New YouGov polling finds REMAIN voters far from being reconciled to leaving EU"

    Well yes, that's surely why they voted remain in the first place wasn't it?
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    brokenwheelbrokenwheel Posts: 3,352

    As the kidz say, 'dafuq'?


    Jeremy Corbyn has praised extraordinary plans to launch a floating House of Commons while repairs are carried out to the Palace of Westminster.

    Labour’s leader said the design for a glass-roofed raft moored on the Thames was “of merit and should be looked at”.


    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-hails-bizarre-plan-for-floating-house-of-commons-on-the-thames-a3369471.html

    Easy for the IRA to sink.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    That's a very good article, summarising exactly where I think we are. The question is now not whether it is hard or soft but whether it is orderly or disorderly.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    On topic, I think it'd be a mistake to equate 'better off' and 'worse off' economically with Leave and Remain. Were not the biggest drivers of Brexit immigration and sovereignty? If so, people might well have accepted that there'd be an economic price to pay but it was one they were happy to do (or at least, were prepared to do).
This discussion has been closed.