Scexit is a real possibility. People need to deal with it.
That is true, but not what has been suggested thus far.
Scexit while "staying in the EU" is not feasible. Scexit outside the EU is perfectly possible. Insane, but that is not a barrier these days.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
On EU membership, Spain remains an immoveable barrier to any short-cut entry for an independent Scotland. But that would not preclude a very favourable deal on the Single Market. That could be done on a QMV basis in short time. Scotland as a new Norway would appeal to many Scando-Nats :-)
Mind you, Mr Mason's restaurant of choice looks authentically working class - Brioche Buns for their chicken burgers (£7 - £9) and beer £4.50/pint.....
Nought too good for ta werkers....
"Just your average hipster hang out joint..." (Trip Advisor)
You have nothing to lose but your pale ale.
It looks decent enough place to me, not exactly champagne at the Ritz:
Scotland without oil included has a GDP just below the UK average and higher than any part of the country except London and the South East. Despite the oil job losses of the last two years it has higher employment and lower unemployment than the UK average. If it stays in the single marketplace while England opts out it shall very quickly be more prosperous'.
Only in the minds of the London media, zombies in the Q.T audience and of course yourself is if a "basket case". However dont stop saying it because you are helping the cause.
1) Scotland is leaving the EU 2) If Scotland left the UK it would be leaving it's biggest market
Economics, bad enough already, would get worse.
A basket case would likely become a failed state.
If Scotland stays in the EU, while rUK goes Hard Brexit, then the Seventies oil boom may be surpassed by the Teenies financial services one.
Scotland are not staying in the EU.
It may depend on whether Sindyref 2 occurs before A50 expires. Quite possible indeed.
As Barroso explained last time, an independent Scotland would be a new country and not signatory to the Lisbon Treaty. It would have to apply for membership of the EU and it would take at least five years to join.
No, he said that is what he thought might happen and that there was no definitive answer on what would actually happen until the UK government put the question to the Commission. Which try never did.
Scexit is a real possibility. People need to deal with it.
True. All the reasons it might be a bad idea don't really matter, only 5% need to stop caring about those and switch, or former supporters turn out less, and it could happen. So far it has still looked uncertain, but it's far far too close to comfort.
We did what the law allows: We published newsworthy information about a subject of deep public concern. If Mr. Trump disagrees, if he believes that American citizens had no right to hear what these women had to say and that the law of this country forces us and those who would dare to criticize him to stand silent or be punished, we welcome the opportunity to have a court set him straight.
I always find the US law very confusing. National Enquirer can print nonsense every week with seemingly no recourse, Hulk Hogan can sue Gawker for $100+ million for exposing something that actually happened.
The US takes a different approach on libel to the UK. Due to the First Amendment guaranteeing freedom of speech any public figure taking action for libel against the press has to prove they acted out of malice. This makes it very difficult for public figures to win a libel claim against the US press. It is a little easier for private individuals who only have to prove that the press acted negligently. The UK press would like to enjoy similar protection, hence their occasional complaints about the burden of proof being reversed in libel cases (it isn't) and references to the UK's "restrictive libel laws".
With the National Enquirer specifically, there is the additional factor that many celebrities will work on the basis that most people don't believe what it prints anyway so taking action will simply give further publicity to the allegations.
The Gawker case was not about libel. It was predominantly about invasion of privacy. The decision is controversial in the US on First Amendment grounds but the UK courts would probably have come to the same conclusion.
It is also why so many of the anti-Clinton memes (and anti-Trump too) can circulate.
America has a lot more free expression than us, though this election seems to be a race to the bottom (literally in the case of Trumps hands!)
The other factor is the US FCC dropped its legal requirements for news broadcasters to be neutral, so even the mainstream news is coloured by bias. There was a Harvard (iirc which I might not) study of one of the GWB elections that found even then that Republican and Democrat voters believed different things to be true -- each side had not just its own opinions, as we would expect, but its own facts.
There will be a zillion articles going through the potential impact on the UK of a hard Brexit, ranging from the tumbleweed apocalypse to the liberating trade expansion new dawn ends of the spectrum.
I'd like to know what the collective PB commentariat's wisdom says about the impact of a hard Brexit on the rest of the EU. Personally I think the very survival of the EU hangs in the balance - not because of Brexit but because of the debt situation and the Euro. If something can't last forever it won't. I'm far from convinced the EU and its financial system can survive the coming downturn. Brexit is salt in the wound, but may be a tipping point in an already shite situation. Can Germany pick up the UK's contribution gap and suffer the job losses a hard Brexit would force upon Siemens, BMW, Mercedes, etc? Hmm....How've Deutsche Bank shares been doing lately?
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
How do propose to identify those people? We all bear the costs of government decisions whether we voted for the decision or the government at all. This one is more significant than most, yes, but we all bear costs of things we do t support or do t use all the time.
Mind you, Mr Mason's restaurant of choice looks authentically working class - Brioche Buns for their chicken burgers (£7 - £9) and beer £4.50/pint.....
Nought too good for ta werkers....
"Just your average hipster hang out joint..." (Trip Advisor)
You have nothing to lose but your pale ale.
It looks decent enough place to me, not exactly champagne at the Ritz:
Indeed I am quite tempted by one of their Hard Shakes next time I am up there. Liverpool is a great town at night.
This is all a bit of a non-story, reporter speculating on who follows on from Jezzz in a few years time. Must be a slow news day at the Sun.
Paul Mason told the working class voters whom he professes to love so much to vote to Remain. He's a less authentic voice on the left than Corbyn.
Paul Mason is a genuine WWC Northerner, and may well be proven to be correct over Remain.
Authenticity is in the eye of the beholder and both the Left and the WWC are more nuanced and multifaceted than some on here opine.
His Northern Soul documentary is not just about great music, it is very insightful about WWC in Britain in the Seventies in the North. Indeed if you really want to see the WWC in all its glory try a Northern Soul Weekender in Skegness. It is not like Shoredich!
Mason's dad ran a haulage firm and his mum was a headmistress. Genuine WWC Northerner, you bet.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Scotland without oil included has a GDP just below the UK average and higher than any part of the country except London and the South East. Despite the oil job losses of the last two years it has higher employment and lower unemployment than the UK average. If it stays in the single marketplace while England opts out it shall very quickly be more prosperous'.
Only in the minds of the London media, zombies in the Q.T audience and of course yourself is if a "basket case". However dont stop saying it because you are helping the cause.
1) Scotland is leaving the EU 2) If Scotland left the UK it would be leaving it's biggest market
Economics, bad enough already, would get worse.
A basket case would likely become a failed state.
If Scotland stays in the EU, while rUK goes Hard Brexit, then the Seventies oil boom may be surpassed by the Teenies financial services one.
Scotland are not staying in the EU.
It may depend on whether Sindyref 2 occurs before A50 expires. Quite possible indeed.
As Barroso explained last time, an independent Scotland would be a new country and not signatory to the Lisbon Treaty. It would have to apply for membership of the EU and it would take at least five years to join.
No, he said that is what he thought might happen and that there was no definitive answer on what would actually happen until the UK government put the question to the Commission. Which try never did.
Or there could be a hybrid Soft Exit Devo-Max Scotland (+/- NI) and Hard Brexit England and Wales Brexit, with Scotland and NI joining the EEA with us out. It would be an ideal fudge in many ways, respecting the wishes of all 4 nations voters, and at least nominally preserving the Union.
There'd be a hard customs border within the UK, and the ECJ would have jurisdiction in 2 parts of the UK but not the other 2. No way would it work.
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
"See Iceland" - Actually I did this summer and found a booming economy and prosperous society. More interestingly perhaps so did in quick succession Alex Salmond, Mike Russell and Nicola Sturgeon.
Perhaps they were all there for the (excellent) tourist experience in the Blue Lagoon!
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
And we've been through this before too.
Time to move on Alastair, you're rehashing the old arguments. Arguments that you've lost.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I also visited Ireland a few weeks back and what did I see in the papers - pictures of Salmond with the President and the Taoiseach - no doubt he was was there just to spend some time at the races.
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
Apart from the boroughs that didn't vote that way of course! ;-)
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
And we've been through this before too.
Time to move on Alastair, you're rehashing the old arguments. Arguments that you've lost.
There's a difference between "arguments I've lost" and "arguments you disagree with". In time all bar the malevolent cretins will realise what a cul de sac we have wandered into with the vote to Leave.
Fior now, we must pursue Brexit because the people have spoken. The implications of that vote for society and for Britain will continue to unfold. Whether there is a Britain left at the end of that process must be very open to doubt now.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
Let's see that happen, then. There are plenty of tax cuts in the pipeline for the wealthy, metropolitan elite that this government could reverse. Likewise, there are plenty of spending cuts that adversely affect the less well off that could also be reversed. Maybe the next budget will contain some surprises. What are the chances?
I also visited Ireland a few weeks back and what did I see in the papers - pictures of Salmond with the President and the Taoiseach - no doubt he was was there just to spend some time at the races.
On topic, I don't think that privately expressed doubts about corbyn do mason any harm, or indeed corbyn himself.. Who doesn't at times express concerns about leaders? That's the nature of their role. It is ridiculous that the sun can get away with posting this. It is a gross invasion of privacy and there is no public interest. There need to be safeguards about privacy if we want sane people to enter public life.
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
Apart from the boroughs that didn't vote that way of course! ;-)
I wonder if AM seriously thinks it's worth making Britain look like Israel and Palestine over the EU.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
Nope, you still don't seem to realise that you lost. And lost not because of people like Richerd Tyndall who have fought the fight for years, but lost because people like me voted Leave and 'damn the establishment' that I'm probably part of. People like my family on a council estate in Wales voted Leave because they're fed up with no-one listening to them. Thankfully most Tory politicians have twigged this - but you don't seem to have done.
Almost no-one loves the EU Alastair. You're in a very small minority there. And it is a minority that has done very well out of it.
Many people who voted Leave can't afford an Austin Maestro, let alone an Aston Martin.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Do you think that people in Britain are in general better or worse off in real terms than they were a generation ago?
There will be a zillion articles going through the potential impact on the UK of a hard Brexit, ranging from the tumbleweed apocalypse to the liberating trade expansion new dawn ends of the spectrum.
I'd like to know what the collective PB commentariat's wisdom says about the impact of a hard Brexit on the rest of the EU. Personally I think the very survival of the EU hangs in the balance - not because of Brexit but because of the debt situation and the Euro. If something can't last forever it won't. I'm far from convinced the EU and its financial system can survive the coming downturn. Brexit is salt in the wound, but may be a tipping point in an already shite situation. Can Germany pick up the UK's contribution gap and suffer the job losses a hard Brexit would force upon Siemens, BMW, Mercedes, etc? Hmm....How've Deutsche Bank shares been doing lately?
QE debt will never be repaid. (And this is true, whether it is in the US, the UK, the Japan or the EU.)
Which means there is no debt problem*.
* With the exception of Greece, which still needs to leave the Euro.
Now, it is quite possible that the Eurozone tips back into recession (although right now, the surveys all point to growth continuing at anaemic but steady 1.5-1.6%). In which case, I think the stresses in places like Italy could be very severe.
But it is worth remembering that the Eurozone does have a number of major advantages compared to the UK. Firstly, there is no personal debt problem. In France, Germany and Italy, household debt-to-GDP is less than 60% of GDP. In the UK it's close to 200%. Secondly, unlike the UK, the Eurozone does not live beyond its means. Other than France, I think every Eurozone country now exports more than it imports. It is therefore has less 'funding' risk. Finally, even ignoring QE debt, government debt-to-GDP is in decline in every Eurozone country except Greece. And EZ budget deficits are much lower than ours. This does mean that - if there is consensus in Europe, which is by no means a given - most Eurozone countries have the ability to respond with fiscal stimulus.
I also visited Ireland a few weeks back and what did I see in the papers - pictures of Salmond with the President and the Taoiseach - no doubt he was was there just to spend some time at the races.
As well as a day at the races, I'm sure he found time to frequent expensive restaurants and get in a few rounds of golf on the UK taxpayers' purse. For sure.
I also visited Ireland a few weeks back and what did I see in the papers - pictures of Salmond with the President and the Taoiseach - no doubt he was was there just to spend some time at the races.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Absolutely. Given the unpopularity of Ivory these days, you'd think people would start dismantling their cosy ivory towers.
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
And we've been through this before too.
Time to move on Alastair, you're rehashing the old arguments. Arguments that you've lost.
There's a difference between "arguments I've lost" and "arguments you disagree with". In time all bar the malevolent cretins will realise what a cul de sac we have wandered into with the vote to Leave.
Fior now, we must pursue Brexit because the people have spoken. The implications of that vote for society and for Britain will continue to unfold. Whether there is a Britain left at the end of that process must be very open to doubt now.
Is Meeks a MalcolmG sockpuppet or is MalcolmG a Meeks sockpuppet. I think we should be told.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Do you think that people in Britain are in general better or worse off in real terms than they were a generation ago?
Overall I'd say yes, but there are a lot of people for whom that doesn't apply. I'd also say since 2005 the group which has benefited is much smaller than the group that hasn't.
I rather hoped they might volunteer, as they're telling us so sanctimoniously how little value they place material things in comparison with higher principles!
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Do you think that people in Britain are in general better or worse off in real terms than they were a generation ago?
Overall I'd say yes, but there are a lot of people for whom that doesn't apply. I'd also say since 2005 the group which has benefited is much smaller than the group that hasn't.
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
Apart from the boroughs that didn't vote that way of course! ;-)
I wonder if AM seriously thinks it's worth making Britain look like Israel and Palestine over the EU.
Alastair is just very pissed off that the plebs have poked the elite in the eye when everything appeared to be going so swimmingly. In general we're better off. But if you move Bill Gates to Somalia they'd on average be better off too. Your average Somali might not notice or care though. The problem Alastair and all the Europhiles face is that there is a clear majority of people in this country for whom things aren't any better, in fact getting worse. They have lives and opinions and votes. Votes which have been taken for granted for 40 years.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
I think we also have to recognise the fault of our education and tax & benefits systems. Immigration from Eastern Europe is a symptom of deeper problems.
Unless we solve the root causes, Brexit will be a palliative only.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Do you think that people in Britain are in general better or worse off in real terms than they were a generation ago?
What a silly question. Do you think we'd still be at a seventies standard of living if we hadn't joined the EEC?
Mind you, Mr Mason's restaurant of choice looks authentically working class - Brioche Buns for their chicken burgers (£7 - £9) and beer £4.50/pint.....
Nought too good for ta werkers....
"Just your average hipster hang out joint..." (Trip Advisor)
You have nothing to lose but your pale ale.
It looks decent enough place to me, .
Paul Mason told the working class voters whom he professes to love so much to vote to Remain. He's a less authentic voice on the left than Corbyn.
Paul Mason is a genuine WWC Northerner, and may well be proven to be correct over Remain.
Authenticity is in the eye of the beholder and both the Left and the WWC are more nuanced and multifaceted than some on here opine.
His Northern Soul documentary is not just about great music, it is very insightful about WWC in Britain in the Seventies in the North. Indeed if you really want to see the WWC in all its glory try a Northern Soul Weekender in Skegness. It is not like Shoredich!
Mason's dad ran a haulage firm and his mum was a headmistress. Genuine WWC Northerner, you bet.
Successful ≠ posh
His Grandad was a miner and they must have stayed in the same community, even if his mum became a teacher, as he recently wrote:
Hi Remain vote call was based iirc entirely on not letting people from the Right like Boris win. He predicted it would usher in a period of even more rightwing policies. He argued that the EU was effectively a undemocratic deflationary monster but Tory right was worse.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
I think we also have to recognise the fault of our education and tax & benefits systems. Immigration from Eastern Europe is a symptom of deeper problems.
Unless we solve the root causes, Brexit will be a palliative only.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
And we've been through this before too.
Time to move on Alastair, you're rehashing the old arguments. Arguments that you've lost.
There's a difference between "arguments I've lost" and "arguments you disagree with". In time all bar the malevolent cretins will realise what a cul de sac we have wandered into with the vote to Leave.
Fior now, we must pursue Brexit because the people have spoken. The implications of that vote for society and for Britain will continue to unfold. Whether there is a Britain left at the end of that process must be very open to doubt now.
If we do Leave, on 'hard' terms, and make a real success of it I wonder how long in time it will be before the Remain cretins realise that perhaps they were wrong.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Changes in the labour market which make jobs less secure are not solely related to EU migration. They are a consequence of 30 years of globalisation and liberalisation. This has driven up living standards and politically we have accepted the price eg inequality. To blame eu migration is a very effective leave fallacy.
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
Not all of London. But the best bits no doubt. not really sure though why on the basis only people who voted for something should should bear the cost, and thus those who don't not, the 30+% who voted leave get a free pass because they reside in a remain borough. Should the 48% remainers in my county also bear the cost because 4% morevoted leave? Someone who'd like London Independent from the uk surely doesn't think we should regard a ceremonial county boundary as a meaningful way to count people and therefore decide their punishment level. My MP was elected on 52% too I think, why must the 48 suffer under him. Why must any of us pay taxes at all, no majority voted for the government which spends the money raised.
It's almost like you are being illogical and selfish.
But make yourself feel better by calling me a moron, it's obviously what you want.
Just yestetday I was feeling some regret at my decision, a decision which despite thinking about a lot I still pondrered in the voting booth for 30 seconds, but then like some parody of a fanatic who ignores all nuance, all concepts or factors which don't fit your preconceived notions , you pop up.
And I know responding like this is exactly what you want, people don't repeatedly insult others unless they want to get a reaction for it, but it just makes me sad, as even now you make plenty of intelligent, thought provoking pieces, even for those who disagree with their points,
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Absolutely. Given the unpopularity of Ivory these days, you'd think people would start dismantling their cosy ivory towers.
I am glad we all now agree that the Tory spending cuts that have so adversely affected median and low income families in this country were wrong and that they need to be reversed.
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
And we've been through this before too.
Time to move on Alastair, you're rehashing the old arguments. Arguments that you've lost.
There's a difference between "arguments I've lost" and "arguments you disagree with". In time all bar the malevolent cretins will realise what a cul de sac we have wandered into with the vote to Leave.
Fior now, we must pursue Brexit because the people have spoken. The implications of that vote for society and for Britain will continue to unfold. Whether there is a Britain left at the end of that process must be very open to doubt now.
If we do Leave, on 'hard' terms, and make a real success of it I wonder how long in time it will be before the Remain cretins realise that perhaps they were wrong.
We will Leave on hard terms. We'll see which of us is right soon enough.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
I think we also have to recognise the fault of our education and tax & benefits systems. Immigration from Eastern Europe is a symptom of deeper problems.
Unless we solve the root causes, Brexit will be a palliative only.
Yes, absolutely. I've written here about how we need middle schooling and better recognition of technical, vocational and apprentice schools and qualifications. Academic excellence is not the only kind of excellence we should recognise as a country, this has held back our young people for 20-30 years. The Gove reforms went some way to redressing the balance away from academia and university for all to having choices, but we need to go further.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Pret a Manger on Picadilly, a hundred yards from where I work, has a constant sign in the window asking for new staff. They offer £11.50/hour, and extra bonuses. There's not one member of that staff that's not European. You can, as a 23 year old in London, whether living with your parents on not, live a perfectly reasonable life on £11.50/hour. Yet there are no Brits, literally none, in that shop.
Less than 20 minutes walk away, there is social housing with high levels of unemployment.
Are Brits much less employable? Or does our tax & benefits system discourage working?
Or is it a bit of both?
Because I simply don't buy the "Pret is prejudiced against British nationals" bullshit.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Do you think that people in Britain are in general better or worse off in real terms than they were a generation ago?
Overall I'd say yes, but there are a lot of people for whom that doesn't apply. I'd also say since 2005 the group which has benefited is much smaller than the group that hasn't.
The Tory Party and UKIP vs. everyone else.
Given that conservative supporters and voters are the most likely to have done well for themselves over the last 30 years I have no idea what point you are trying to score.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
I think we also have to recognise the fault of our education and tax & benefits systems. Immigration from Eastern Europe is a symptom of deeper problems.
Unless we solve the root causes, Brexit will be a palliative only.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Education generalky in 70s, 80s and early 90s was much worse than it is now.
Mr. kle4, I spent a little while thinking about it in the booth as well.
Ultimately, the long term interest has to come first.
On the EU's potentially imminent demise, (I forget who wrote of that), even if there's the worst case collapse of Deutsche Bank and so forth and some other members peel off, it'll stagger on for a while yet. Both the Western and Eastern Empires kept just about afloat for a couple of centuries when the writing was on the wall, and though the EU won't match that, it'll still be here in a decade or two, whatever happens.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
I think we also have to recognise the fault of our education and tax & benefits systems. Immigration from Eastern Europe is a symptom of deeper problems.
Unless we solve the root causes, Brexit will be a palliative only.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Education generalky in 70s, 80s and early 90s was much worse than it is now.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Absolutely. Given the unpopularity of Ivory these days, you'd think people would start dismantling their cosy ivory towers.
I am glad we all now agree that the Tory spending cuts that have so adversely affected median and low income families in this country were wrong and that they need to be reversed.
Come on, SO. You know as well as I do that the 48% are all foul and vicious traitors richly deserving of death. The Leavers here all think so - what more proof could there possibly be?
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
...
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't and are stuck in low wage jobs without the means to access training to increase their skills or an employer willing to give them the training. The unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
I think we also have to recognise the fault of our education and tax & benefits systems. Immigration from Eastern Europe is a symptom of deeper problems.
Unless we solve the root causes, Brexit will be a palliative only.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Education generalky in 70s, 80s and early 90s was much worse than it is now.
So were a lot of things - it is no defence for staying in an EU that, with a cockamamy freedom of movement shibboleth breaks the nation's dependence on the betterment of its own people.
I rather hoped they might volunteer, as they're telling us so sanctimoniously how little value they place material things in comparison with higher principles!
Some, yes, others said a certain level of cost would force them to say they made a mistske, but mr. Meeks for one has seriously suggested only leavers bear the costs of Brexit. Since plenty of people even in leave areas voted remain, that means we need to establish which way every single person in the country voted to decide their level of cost, not use administrative boundaries to punish. At least not on a flat scale, a close Brexit region punished less than a heavy brexitvregion.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Pret a Manger on Picadilly, a hundred yards from where I work, has a constant sign in the window asking for new staff. They offer £11.50/hour, and extra bonuses. There's not one member of that staff that's not European. You can, as a 23 year old in London, whether living with your parents on not, live a perfectly reasonable life on £11.50/hour. Yet there are no Brits, literally none, in that shop.
Less than 20 minutes walk away, there is social housing with high levels of unemployment.
Are Brits much less employable? Or does our tax & benefits system discourage working?
Or is it a bit of both?
Because I simply don't buy the "Pret is prejudiced against British nationals" bullshit.
This is not a new problem. I live in the ward of Islington that adjoins the City. At the 2001 census, over 40% of households in the ward had no one in work.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Pret a Manger on Picadilly, a hundred yards from where I work, has a constant sign in the window asking for new staff. They offer £11.50/hour, and extra bonuses. There's not one member of that staff that's not European. You can, as a 23 year old in London, whether living with your parents on not, live a perfectly reasonable life on £11.50/hour. Yet there are no Brits, literally none, in that shop.
Less than 20 minutes walk away, there is social housing with high levels of unemployment.
Are Brits much less employable? Or does our tax & benefits system discourage working?
Or is it a bit of both?
Because I simply don't buy the "Pret is prejudiced against British nationals" bullshit.
That is terrible. Why doesn't the dole office arrange interviews for eligible candidates and insist on a genuine trial of employment
Maybe we should troll the SNP by turning their own logic against them. Parts of Scotland that vote to Remain in the UK will be allowed to if they wish.
Fine, just so long as London is free to Remain in the EU.
And we've been through this before too.
Time to move on Alastair, you're rehashing the old arguments. Arguments that you've lost.
There's a difference between "arguments I've lost" and "arguments you disagree with". In time all bar the malevolent cretins will realise what a cul de sac we have wandered into with the vote to Leave.
Fior now, we must pursue Brexit because the people have spoken. The implications of that vote for society and for Britain will continue to unfold. Whether there is a Britain left at the end of that process must be very open to doubt now.
If we do Leave, on 'hard' terms,.
Only option on the table - Tusk:
In my opinion, the only real alternative to a “hard Brexit” is “no Brexit”.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
...
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
I think we also have to recognise the fault of our education and tax & benefits systems. Immigration from Eastern Europe is a symptom of deeper problems.
Unless we solve the root causes, Brexit will be a palliative only.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Education generalky in 70s, 80s and early 90s was much worse than it is now.
So were a lot of things - it is no defence for staying in an EU that, with a cockamamy freedom of movement shibboleth breaks the nation's dependence on the betterment of its own people.
But it does fly in the face of your claim that EU membership has broken the link between education of natives and economic growth.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Pret a Manger on Picadilly, a hundred yards from where I work, has a constant sign in the window asking for new staff. They offer £11.50/hour, and extra bonuses. There's not one member of that staff that's not European. You can, as a 23 year old in London, whether living with your parents on not, live a perfectly reasonable life on £11.50/hour. Yet there are no Brits, literally none, in that shop.
Less than 20 minutes walk away, there is social housing with high levels of unemployment.
Are Brits much less employable? Or does our tax & benefits system discourage working?
Or is it a bit of both?
Because I simply don't buy the "Pret is prejudiced against British nationals" bullshit.
This is not a new problem. I live in the ward of Islington that adjoins the City. At the 2001 census, over 40% of households in the ward had no one in work.
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain ract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
I think we also have to recognise the fault of our education and tax & benefits systems. Immigration from Eastern Europe is a symptom of deeper problems.
Unless we solve the root causes, Brexit will be a palliative only.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Education generalky in 70s, 80s and early 90s was much worse than it is now.
But on the job training was a lot better.
In which areas? Low income jobs - the ones most affected by EU immigration - have never been ones in which there was a lot of training.
Some, yes, others said a certain level of cost would force them to say they made a mistske, but mr. Meeks for one has seriously suggested only leavers bear the costs of Brexit. Since plenty of people even in leave areas voted remain, that means we need to establish which way every single person in the country voted to decide their level of cost, not use administrative boundaries to punish. At least not on a flat scale, a close Brexit region punished less than a heavy brexitvregion.
No, obviously we're stuck with it, and obviously the people as a whole are going to pay any consequences.
I just find the political claptrap irritating. Even the most gullible Brexit believer must have an inkling of the irony involved, when the great new era of British Democracy is going to be inaugurated by using the royal prerogative to take the decision out of parliament's hands.
On the EU's potentially imminent demise, (I forget who wrote of that), even if there's the worst case collapse of Deutsche Bank and so forth and some other members peel off, it'll stagger on for a while yet. Both the Western and Eastern Empires kept just about afloat for a couple of centuries when the writing was on the wall, and though the EU won't match that, it'll still be here in a decade or two, whatever happens.
That said, I do think I'll outlive it.
Frexit would turn the EU into the deutschmark zone in all but name.
On topic, I don't think that privately expressed doubts about corbyn do mason any harm, or indeed corbyn himself.. Who doesn't at times express concerns about leaders? That's the nature of their role. It is ridiculous that the sun can get away with posting this. It is a gross invasion of privacy and there is no public interest. There need to be safeguards about privacy if we want sane people to enter public life.
You're letting the mask slip a little bit there...
Can 2016 get any stranger? Will Elvis be discovered alive and well?
Trust in the media has taken a massive shock - and many Establishment types who previously appeared quite affable have become almost unhinged. I don't like Paddy much - but thought he's fairly harmless and decent chappy... he's linked my Brexit vote with Oswald Mosley
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
...
...
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
How very convenient for you that the world has gone your way for 30 years and now you're not happy to help those who need it.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
Britain as a whole has done pretty well these last 30 years. As usual, truthiness is more important to Leavers than facts. If Leavers want to pursue a second order question at high cost to society, they should pay for it themselves. I'd like an Aston Martin but I don't expect it to be paid for by the general public.
I think certain people in Britain have done very well for the last 30-40 years. There are a lot of people who haven't unwritten social contract between an employer and employee has been distorted by the unlimited cheap labour pool that the EU comes with. For you and I it doesn't matter since we're not in sectors which rely on cheap unskilled labour, but there are millions for which it does matter.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
I think we also have to recognise the fault of our education and tax & benefits systems. Immigration from Eastern Europe is a symptom of deeper problems.
Unless we solve the root causes, Brexit will be a palliative only.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Education generalky in 70s, 80s and early 90s was much worse than it is now.
So were a lot of things - it is no defence for staying in an EU that, with a cockamamy freedom of movement shibboleth breaks the nation's dependence on the betterment of its own people.
But it does fly in the face of your claim that EU membership has broken the link between education of natives and economic growth.
Mr. Jonathan, an intriguing way to shift even more spending towards areas of the highest wealth.
Stark raving mad, of course.
Do you also support the right of those with private medical insurance to opt out of funding the NHS? Or pacifists not to pay for the military? Or the childless not to fund schools?
Since 'Freedom of Movement' is supposed to be a 'Benefit' of the EU - by giving up that right, surely Britain is disadvantaging itself - 'punishing' itself?
Why on earth would the EU wish to punish us further?
If I'm a member of a club with a swimming pool, squash courts, tennis courts and driving range, why should I pay more if I don't use the swimming pool?
Yep - as many Leave voters have noted, there are some things that are more important than money.
So perhaps the costs of Brexit should actually be borne by those who place such a high value on Nigel Farage's and Boris Johnson's slogans? Any takers?
No - we've been through this. When you have a dissatisfied demos and an enriched metropolitan elite, there is only one group with something to lose. They (we) pay up - for the sake of all our people.
How very convenient for you that you believe that the thing you passionately want should be paid for by other people.
Grotesquely self-serving.
The same argument could be turned on Remainers. For instance, those in the City who want to be in the Single Market and have the financial passport and expect others to bear the costs i.e. free movement of doing so. It is not just leavers who are self-serving.
And the City and all those who benefit from its existence have not been very good at explaining to others why their interests should be more important than the interests of others in the country. Saying that they produce tax revenues is a part of this but is not sufficient. The City is not popular, is arrogant, has a woeful tin ear for how it comes across to those not within its orbit, resembles pre-1979 unions rather more than it might think and, like those unions, risks failing to adapt to a changing world.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Pret a Manger on Picadilly, a hundred yards from where I work, has a constant sign in the window asking for new staff. They offer £11.50/hour, and extra bonuses. There's not one member of that staff that's not European. You can, as a 23 year old in London, whether living with your parents on not, live a perfectly reasonable life on £11.50/hour. Yet there are no Brits, literally none, in that shop.
Less than 20 minutes walk away, there is social housing with high levels of unemployment.
Are Brits much less employable? Or does our tax & benefits system discourage working?
Or is it a bit of both?
Because I simply don't buy the "Pret is prejudiced against British nationals" bullshit.
This is not a new problem. I live in the ward of Islington that adjoins the City. At the 2001 census, over 40% of households in the ward had no one in work.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Pret a Manger on Picadilly, a hundred yards from where I work, has a constant sign in the window asking for new staff. They offer £11.50/hour, and extra bonuses. There's not one member of that staff that's not European. You can, as a 23 year old in London, whether living with your parents on not, live a perfectly reasonable life on £11.50/hour. Yet there are no Brits, literally none, in that shop.
Less than 20 minutes walk away, there is social housing with high levels of unemployment.
Are Brits much less employable? Or does our tax & benefits system discourage working?
Or is it a bit of both?
Because I simply don't buy the "Pret is prejudiced against British nationals" bullshit.
This is not a new problem. I live in the ward of Islington that adjoins the City. At the 2001 census, over 40% of households in the ward had no one in work.
But it is a problem that your pet EU project, because of free movement, is preventing us from solving...
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Pret a Manger on Picadilly, a hundred yards from where I work, has a constant sign in the window asking for new staff. They offer £11.50/hour, and extra bonuses. There's not one member of that staff that's not European. You can, as a 23 year old in London, whether living with your parents on not, live a perfectly reasonable life on £11.50/hour. Yet there are no Brits, literally none, in that shop.
Less than 20 minutes walk away, there is social housing with high levels of unemployment.
Are Brits much less employable? Or does our tax & benefits system discourage working?
Or is it a bit of both?
Because I simply don't buy the "Pret is prejudiced against British nationals" bullshit.
This is not a new problem. I live in the ward of Islington that adjoins the City. At the 2001 census, over 40% of households in the ward had no one in work.
London has special problems.
It offers so much and caters for every taste and need. But because London is so big, busy and convoluted, it's hard sometimes to find what you want/need. It could be on your doorstep, but you might never know.
What a relief it must be for the PB Brexitories to take a break from whining about Project Fear 2.0 and telling every man and his dog that it wasn't about the money, but sovereignty, democratic accountability, taking back control and freedom. That they've reverted to pushing Project Fear 1.1 and telling the poor, old bloke with the collie that for Scotland it's all about the economics and an Indy Scotland would be a worse basket case than Greece is proof of the old adage that a change is as good as a rest.
Some, yes, others said a certain level of cost would force them to say they made a mistske, but mr. Meeks for one has seriously suggested only leavers bear the costs of Brexit. Since plenty of people even in leave areas voted remain, that means we need to establish which way every single person in the country voted to decide their level of cost, not use administrative boundaries to punish. At least not on a flat scale, a close Brexit region punished less than a heavy brexitvregion.
No, obviously we're stuck with it, and obviously the people as a whole are going to pay any consequences.
I just find the political claptrap irritating. Even the most gullible Brexit believer must have an inkling of the irony involved, when the great new era of British Democracy is going to be inaugurated by using the royal prerogative to take the decision out of parliament's hands.
Parliment voted for the referendum to occur. That's nonsense.
You definitely have something there Robert - but don't you think the symptom, through breaking the link between the education of natives and economic growth, also perpetuates the situation? The symptom becomes another cause, and a far more obvious one.
Pret a Manger on Picadilly, a hundred yards from where I work, has a constant sign in the window asking for new staff. They offer £11.50/hour, and extra bonuses. There's not one member of that staff that's not European. You can, as a 23 year old in London, whether living with your parents on not, live a perfectly reasonable life on £11.50/hour. Yet there are no Brits, literally none, in that shop.
Less than 20 minutes walk away, there is social housing with high levels of unemployment.
Are Brits much less employable? Or does our tax & benefits system discourage working?
Or is it a bit of both?
Because I simply don't buy the "Pret is prejudiced against British nationals" bullshit.
This is not a new problem. I live in the ward of Islington that adjoins the City. At the 2001 census, over 40% of households in the ward had no one in work.
London has special problems.
It offers so much and caters for every taste and need. But because London is so big, busy and convoluted, it's hard sometimes to find what you want/need. It could be on your doorstep, but you might never know.
Comments
https://twitter.com/johnnyTR70/status/786806494314369024
On EU membership, Spain remains an immoveable barrier to any short-cut entry for an independent Scotland. But that would not preclude a very favourable deal on the Single Market. That could be done on a QMV basis in short time. Scotland as a new Norway would appeal to many Scando-Nats :-)
STV News has learned the meeting took place in a restaurant as opposed to German foreign office.
http://stv.tv/news/politics/1368655-sturgeon-mocked-for-lunch-meeting-with-junior-german-minister/
The EC does not currently have a publically expressed official position.
Answer, our current Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/borisjohnson/3563578/Dont-blame-George-Osborne-the-falling-pound-is-Gordon-Browns-fault.html
I'd like to know what the collective PB commentariat's wisdom says about the impact of a hard Brexit on the rest of the EU. Personally I think the very survival of the EU hangs in the balance - not because of Brexit but because of the debt situation and the Euro. If something can't last forever it won't. I'm far from convinced the EU and its financial system can survive the coming downturn. Brexit is salt in the wound, but may be a tipping point in an already shite situation. Can Germany pick up the UK's contribution gap and suffer the job losses a hard Brexit would force upon Siemens, BMW, Mercedes, etc? Hmm....How've Deutsche Bank shares been doing lately?
Grotesquely self-serving.
Still not at the acceptance stage I see.
"See Iceland" - Actually I did this summer and found a booming economy and prosperous society. More interestingly perhaps so did in quick succession Alex Salmond, Mike Russell and Nicola Sturgeon.
Perhaps they were all there for the (excellent) tourist experience in the Blue Lagoon!
Time to move on Alastair, you're rehashing the old arguments. Arguments that you've lost.
Fior now, we must pursue Brexit because the people have spoken. The implications of that vote for society and for Britain will continue to unfold. Whether there is a Britain left at the end of that process must be very open to doubt now.
It is ridiculous that the sun can get away with posting this. It is a gross invasion of privacy and there is no public interest.
There need to be safeguards about privacy if we want sane people to enter public life.
Broadstone (Poole) result:
LDEM: 69.3% (+24.0)
CON: 23.3% (-13.2)
UKIP: 4.2% (-7.5)
GRN: 1.8% (-4.8)
LAB: 1.4% (+1.4)
Liberal Democrat GAIN Broadstone (Poole) from Conservative.
Elsewhere LibDems, Labour, Conservative holds and a Residents gain from Tories.
The sooner you see this the sooner you'll understand what has driven this nation to become so polarised.
Almost no-one loves the EU Alastair. You're in a very small minority there. And it is a minority that has done very well out of it.
Many people who voted Leave can't afford an Austin Maestro, let alone an Aston Martin.
Which means there is no debt problem*.
* With the exception of Greece, which still needs to leave the Euro.
Now, it is quite possible that the Eurozone tips back into recession (although right now, the surveys all point to growth continuing at anaemic but steady 1.5-1.6%). In which case, I think the stresses in places like Italy could be very severe.
But it is worth remembering that the Eurozone does have a number of major advantages compared to the UK. Firstly, there is no personal debt problem. In France, Germany and Italy, household debt-to-GDP is less than 60% of GDP. In the UK it's close to 200%. Secondly, unlike the UK, the Eurozone does not live beyond its means. Other than France, I think every Eurozone country now exports more than it imports. It is therefore has less 'funding' risk. Finally, even ignoring QE debt, government debt-to-GDP is in decline in every Eurozone country except Greece. And EZ budget deficits are much lower than ours. This does mean that - if there is consensus in Europe, which is by no means a given - most Eurozone countries have the ability to respond with fiscal stimulus.
Unless we solve the root causes, Brexit will be a palliative only.
"Thatcherism destroyed not just the industry our communities were based around, but our social continuity. The pub where I drank my first pint was the same one in which my grandfather drank his. It has gone, together with the resilient solidarity that kept our violence low-key, our crimes rare, and wages high."
(http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2016/09/new-times-paul-mason-why-left-must-be-ready-cause-commotion)
Hi Remain vote call was based iirc entirely on not letting people from the Right like Boris win. He predicted it would usher in a period of even more rightwing policies. He argued that the EU was effectively a undemocratic deflationary monster but Tory right was worse.
The restaurant is a public place - why should anyone have a reasonable expectation of privacy?
If you want to have a confidential conversation you don't hold it in a public restaurant within earshot of others...
Apart from that......
To blame eu migration is a very effective leave fallacy.
It's almost like you are being illogical and selfish.
But make yourself feel better by calling me a moron, it's obviously what you want.
Just yestetday I was feeling some regret at my decision, a decision which despite thinking about a lot I still pondrered in the voting booth for 30 seconds, but then like some parody of a fanatic who ignores all nuance, all concepts or factors which don't fit your preconceived notions , you pop up.
And I know responding like this is exactly what you want, people don't repeatedly insult others unless they want to get a reaction for it, but it just makes me sad, as even now you make plenty of intelligent, thought provoking pieces, even for those who disagree with their points,
Less than 20 minutes walk away, there is social housing with high levels of unemployment.
Are Brits much less employable? Or does our tax & benefits system discourage working?
Or is it a bit of both?
Because I simply don't buy the "Pret is prejudiced against British nationals" bullshit.
Mr. kle4, I spent a little while thinking about it in the booth as well.
Ultimately, the long term interest has to come first.
On the EU's potentially imminent demise, (I forget who wrote of that), even if there's the worst case collapse of Deutsche Bank and so forth and some other members peel off, it'll stagger on for a while yet. Both the Western and Eastern Empires kept just about afloat for a couple of centuries when the writing was on the wall, and though the EU won't match that, it'll still be here in a decade or two, whatever happens.
That said, I do think I'll outlive it.
In my opinion, the only real alternative to a “hard Brexit” is “no Brexit”.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3836799/There-hard-Brexit-EU-chief-Donald-Tusk-crushes-hopes-Remain-camp-want-Britain-stay-single-market.htm
I wonder whether politicians would make different decisions if they were in some way personally liable for the costs.
Somehow I doubt Boris would have backed Brexit if he had to put his hand in his pocket.
I just find the political claptrap irritating. Even the most gullible Brexit believer must have an inkling of the irony involved, when the great new era of British Democracy is going to be inaugurated by using the royal prerogative to take the decision out of parliament's hands.
Trust in the media has taken a massive shock - and many Establishment types who previously appeared quite affable have become almost unhinged. I don't like Paddy much - but thought he's fairly harmless and decent chappy... he's linked my Brexit vote with Oswald Mosley
Stark raving mad, of course.
Do you also support the right of those with private medical insurance to opt out of funding the NHS? Or pacifists not to pay for the military? Or the childless not to fund schools?
Why on earth would the EU wish to punish us further?
If I'm a member of a club with a swimming pool, squash courts, tennis courts and driving range, why should I pay more if I don't use the swimming pool?
Clinton 45 .. Trump 39
https://www.uml.edu/docs/TOPLINE - UMassLowell-7NEWS NH GENERAL 20161013_tcm18-262711.pdf
Perhaps we can bill Blair and New Labour for the Iraq catastrophe.
And the City and all those who benefit from its existence have not been very good at explaining to others why their interests should be more important than the interests of others in the country. Saying that they produce tax revenues is a part of this but is not sufficient. The City is not popular, is arrogant, has a woeful tin ear for how it comes across to those not within its orbit, resembles pre-1979 unions rather more than it might think and, like those unions, risks failing to adapt to a changing world.
Meeksie-Antoinette
It offers so much and caters for every taste and need. But because London is so big, busy and convoluted, it's hard sometimes to find what you want/need. It could be on your doorstep, but you might never know.
That they've reverted to pushing Project Fear 1.1 and telling the poor, old bloke with the collie that for Scotland it's all about the economics and an Indy Scotland would be a worse basket case than Greece is proof of the old adage that a change is as good as a rest.
The Lord High Hat-Eater is off his rocker.