The more we continue with this insanity, the more we support Sturgeon's narrative that the country has been captured by a loony minority in the Tory party. A Brexit that dissolves the Union is no victory at all.
But that narrative would be pursued regardless of anything else that was going on, along with the new list of grievances: demands for Scottish exceptionalism on issues such as immigration and single market access, which cannot possibly be met by anything other than independence, yet which the UK Government will be accused of wrongfully denying to Scotland when they are not forthcoming. Regardless of how well or not Brexit itself actually goes, the SNPs usual array of hate figures and institutions is being set up to fail. It was ever thus.
Beyond that, whilst I don't expect the Union to founder and I don't want it to founder, there is a hierarchy of priorities at work here. The ultimate purpose of the EU is to dismantle the nation states of Europe. If the EU were to survive and achieve its aims with us still in it, then eventually there would be no UK regardless. With the country out of the EU, there is a chance for the Union between England and Scotland to survive. Within the EU, should the project progress to its logical conclusion, the terms England and Scotland would eventually cease to have any meaning.
Therefore, the primary aim has to be to extract the UK from the EU, even at the risk of compromising its integrity. Keeping the UK 92% intact outside of the EU would be better than having 100% of the UK gradually dissolved to mush inside of it.
My point is really about the PR battle. We liberal eliters are desperate for someone with a bit of fight to stick it the three Brexiteers.
Look at Aaronovitch's piece today lauding Starmer as the next Labour leader - after one good news cycle!
Sturgeon will Sturgeon, but there's no reason to give her ammunition. I think we need the brave, open Brexit of, I guess, Boris Johnson. May had/has the opportunity to take the great majority of the country with her. She won't if she appears like UKIP light.
By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
And another post debate poll, national this time that shows the situation returning back to normal:
All the national polls done after the debate show now an average Hillary lead of 3.6% .
Normal with one difference - Johnson and Stein are getting squeezed out of the picture in the 4-way, but without evidence of a decisive break towards either Trump or Clinton. It's still wide open.
3.6% isn't wide open.
Thats strange. We keep getting told here that 3.8% as in 51. 9 to 48.1 is so close as to make the result meaningless
The more we continue with this insanity, the more we support Sturgeon's narrative that the country has been captured by a loony minority in the Tory party. A Brexit that dissolves the Union is no victory at all.
But that narrative would be pursued regardless of anything else that was going on, along with the new list of grievances: demands for Scottish exceptionalism on issues such as immigration and single market access, which cannot possibly be met by anything other than independence, yet which the UK Government will be accused of wrongfully denying to Scotland when they are not forthcoming. Regardless of how well or not Brexit itself actually goes, the SNPs usual array of hate figures and institutions is being set up to fail. It was ever thus.
Beyond that, whilst I don't expect the Union to founder and I don't want it to founder, there is a hierarchy of priorities at work here. The ultimate purpose of the EU is to dismantle the nation states of Europe. If the EU were to survive and achieve its aims with us still in it, then eventually there would be no UK regardless. With the country out of the EU, there is a chance for the Union between England and Scotland to survive. Within the EU, should the project progress to its logical conclusion, the terms England and Scotland would eventually cease to have any meaning.
Therefore, the primary aim has to be to extract the UK from the EU, even at the risk of compromising its integrity. Keeping the UK 92% intact outside of the EU would be better than having 100% of the UK gradually dissolved to mush inside of it.
My point is really about the PR battle. We liberal eliters are desperate for someone with a bit of fight to stick it the three Brexiteers.
Look at Aaronovitch's piece today lauding Starmer as the next Labour leader - after one good news cycle!
Sturgeon will Sturgeon, but there's no reason to give her ammunition. I think we need the brave, open Brexit of, I guess, Boris Johnson. May had/has the opportunity to take the great majority of the country with her. She won't if she appears like UKIP light.
By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
And continuing with the good polling news for Trump, my average daily tracker has turned the corner for him, the first time today he has gone up since Oct.1st.
And another post debate poll, national this time that shows the situation returning back to normal:
All the national polls done after the debate show now an average Hillary lead of 3.6% .
Normal with one difference - Johnson and Stein are getting squeezed out of the picture in the 4-way, but without evidence of a decisive break towards either Trump or Clinton. It's still wide open.
3.6% isn't wide open.
Thats strange. We keep getting told here that 3.8% as in 51. 9 to 48.1 is so close as to make the result meaningless
I've been following the debate on here for some time. I think people have far too much confidence on here that the current government can weather the course they have embarked on. There must be a high chance that the current government will fall, when the implications of the Brexit strategy fall in to place. As it is starting to now. Scotland is one issue, Ireland is another, the economic fallout of the fall in value of the pound another. And then there are a whole host of other interrelated issues, issues that have already been considered but will start to become more real over the next few months: what happens to trident if Scotland becomes independent. What happens to the land border in Ireland. and so on. These are all questions that we know about already, but they haven't been thought through by anyone to any conclusion, because there is so much uncertainty, and there are so many distractions as events roll out on a daily basis. The key developments I would argue is that there is now an organised 'opposition' in parliament. Businesses are spooked. The bizarre movements of the pound. The statements by Nissan, land rover, American banks. Petrol prices have risen 10%. In the town where I work every single private sector funded major investment project has been stopped or halted due to Brexit. I'm not saying anything new, but all I am saying is look at the volatility. It is completely unprecedented. The decision to go forward with leaving the EU would result in vast political, economic and constitional chaos. I don't believe that the government can weather it. I believe that they will fall, and that the tories will not be able to decide how resolve it when they call a general election, because the Brexitters are already starting to argue amongst themselves.
And it is anyones guess how it could play out after that.
I think people are in denial about the true scale of the political, economic and social volatility the UK is currently in. The phoney peace is currently coming to an end, and people are starting to wake up.
On topic, from a betting point of view, I think the odds that A50 wont be triggered until the second half of next year are very good.
Welcome. Another voice of sanity.
I disagree with you around the odds of A50 though. Or rather, I think that now that May has set a date, it's either that or an early election.
The more we continue with this insanity, the more we support Sturgeon's narrative that the country has been captured by a loony minority in the Tory party. A Brexit that dissolves the Union is no victory at all.
But that narrative would be pursued regardless of anything else that was going on, along with the new list of grievances: demands for Scottish exceptionalism on issues such as immigration and single market access, which cannot possibly be met by anything other than independence, yet which the UK Government will be accused of wrongfully denying to Scotland when they are not forthcoming. Regardless of how well or not Brexit itself actually goes, the SNPs usual array of hate figures and institutions is being set up to fail. It was ever thus.
Beyond that, whilst I don't expect the Union to founder and I don't want it to founder, there is a hierarchy of priorities at work here. The ultimate purpose of the EU is to dismantle the nation states of Europe. If the EU were to survive and achieve its aims with us still in it, then eventually there would be no UK regardless. With the country out of the EU, there is a chance for the Union between England and Scotland to survive. Within the EU, should the project progress to its logical conclusion, the terms England and Scotland would eventually cease to have any meaning.
Therefore, the primary aim has to be to extract the UK from the EU, even at the risk of compromising its integrity. Keeping the UK 92% intact outside of the EU would be better than having 100% of the UK gradually dissolved to mush inside of it.
My point is really about the PR battle. We liberal eliters are desperate for someone with a bit of fight to stick it the three Brexiteers.
Look at Aaronovitch's piece today lauding Starmer as the next Labour leader - after one good news cycle!
Sturgeon will Sturgeon, but there's no reason to give her ammunition. I think we need the brave, open Brexit of, I guess, Boris Johnson. May had/has the opportunity to take the great majority of the country with her. She won't if she appears like UKIP light.
By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
It is the logical conclusion affirmed by the opening passage in the Treaty of Rome. It is no myth.
You may construe it that way. I do not. And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
I've been following the debate on here for some time. I think people have far too much confidence on here that the current government can weather the course they have embarked on. There must be a high chance that the current government will fall, when the implications of the Brexit strategy fall in to place. As it is starting to now. Scotland is one issue, Ireland is another, the economic fallout of the fall in value of the pound another. And then there are a whole host of other interrelated issues, issues that have already been considered but will start to become more real over the next few months: what happens to trident if Scotland becomes independent. What happens to the land border in Ireland. and so on. These are all questions that we know about already, but they haven't been thought through by anyone to any conclusion, because there is so much uncertainty, and there are so many distractions as events roll out on a daily basis. The key developments I would argue is that there is now an organised 'opposition' in parliament. Businesses are spooked. The bizarre movements of the pound. The statements by Nissan, land rover, American banks. Petrol prices have risen 10%. In the town where I work every single private sector funded major investment project has been stopped or halted due to Brexit. I'm not saying anything new, but all I am saying is look at the volatility. It is completely unprecedented. The decision to go forward with leaving the EU would result in vast political, economic and constitional chaos. I don't believe that the government can weather it. I believe that they will fall, and that the tories will not be able to decide how resolve it when they call a general election, because the Brexitters are already starting to argue amongst themselves.
And it is anyones guess how it could play out after that.
I think people are in denial about the true scale of the political, economic and social volatility the UK is currently in. The phoney peace is currently coming to an end, and people are starting to wake up.
On topic, from a betting point of view, I think the odds that A50 wont be triggered until the second half of next year are very good.
Welcome. Another voice of sanity.
I disagree with you around the odds of A50 though. Or rather, I think that now that May has set a date, it's either that or an early election.
The voice of ill informed lunacy more like.
Gracious welcome to a newcomer!
What is it with some Leavers and alternative points of view?
I've been following the debate on here for some time. I think people have far too much confidence on here that the current government can weather the course they have embarked on. There must be a high chance that the current government will fall, when the implications of the Brexit strategy fall in to place. As it is starting to now. Scotland is one issue, Ireland is another, the economic fallout of the fall in value of the pound another. And then there are a whole host of other interrelated issues, issues that have already been considered but will start to become more real over the next few months: what happens to trident if Scotland becomes independent. What happens to the land border in Ireland. and so on. These are all questions that we know about already, but they haven't been thought through by anyone to any conclusion, because there is so much uncertainty, and there are so many distractions as events roll out on a daily basis. The key developments I would argue is that there is now an organised 'opposition' in parliament. Businesses are spooked. The bizarre movements of the pound. The statements by Nissan, land rover, American banks. Petrol prices have risen 10%. In the town where I work every single private sector funded major investment project has been stopped or halted due to Brexit. I'm not saying anything new, but all I am saying is look at the volatility. It is completely unprecedented. The decision to go forward with leaving the EU would result in vast political, economic and constitional chaos. I don't believe that the government can weather it. I believe that they will fall, and that the tories will not be able to decide how resolve it when they call a general election, because the Brexitters are already starting to argue amongst themselves.
And it is anyones guess how it could play out after that.
I think people are in denial about the true scale of the political, economic and social volatility the UK is currently in. The phoney peace is currently coming to an end, and people are starting to wake up.
On topic, from a betting point of view, I think the odds that A50 wont be triggered until the second half of next year are very good.
Nice post.
My own view is that it's when no one can see a catalyst for change in sight that change occurs.
So we are at get three in a hunded wrong people wrong in the polls and we have an almighty shock territory.
With a sample size of 500 that is 15 people
Honestly, I've seen enough bias everywhere to ignore the polling and look entirely at the campaign behaviour now.
If HRC was as far ahead as claimed - they wouldn't be resorting to implying that Trump's a paedo or serial groper from 35yrs ago. It smacks of desperation, not clear lead. Hillary isn't campaigning again today - even Michelle is turning out for an event.
There's a problem that's more than a course of anti-biotics.
Plato: the problem is that you're not looking at the campaign behaviour: you're looking at the campaign behaviour through the prism of a one-sided set of sources, with your mind already set to look for things which reinforce your existing view.
Thus you ignore polling that contradicts your view, and say it's because they are biased.
From your posts, I'd say it's much more likely that you're biased than the polls.
Im looking at it from the view of making some more money out of William Hill.
I now scroll by Mr Jessop as he's rude or passive aggressive towards me.
I bother to read and watch Wikileaks and propaganda from all sides. I share what seems most likely to shake up lazy views. I found the Young Turks video re Bernie fascinating - they were very unhappy with the corporate culture too - for another yet valid reasons.
TBH, that PB is paying zip attention tells me a great deal about the balance of opinion. Hundreds of posts nitpicking over Marmite FFS. I'm looking at this as a strategic shift in the US - whomever wins. We've 28 days to go and several have already called it.
Why? Are they so convinced it's all over whilst Wiki is dumping horror stories every few hours? And have another 35000 emails to go before the 30k Hillary deleted?
I've been following the debate on here for some time. I think people have far too much confidence on here that the current government can weather the course they have embarked on. There must be a high chance that the current government will fall, when the implications of the Brexit strategy fall in to place. As it is starting to now. Scotland is one issue, Ireland is another, the economic fallout of the fall in value of the pound another. And then there are a whole host of other interrelated issues, issues that have already been considered but will start to become more real over the next few months: what happens to trident if Scotland becomes independent. What happens to the land border in Ireland. and so on. These are all questions that we know about already, but they haven't been thought through by anyone to any conclusion, because there is so much uncertainty, and there are so many distractions as events roll out on a daily basis. The key developments I would argue is that there is now an organised 'opposition' in parliament. Businesses are spooked. The bizarre movements of the pound. The statements by Nissan, land rover, American banks. Petrol prices have risen 10%. In the town where I work every single private sector funded major investment project has been stopped or halted due to Brexit. I'm not saying anything new, but all I am saying is look at the volatility. It is completely unprecedented. The decision to go forward with leaving the EU would result in vast political, economic and constitional chaos. I don't believe that the government can weather it. I believe that they will fall, and that the tories will not be able to decide how resolve it when they call a general election, because the Brexitters are already starting to argue amongst themselves.
And it is anyones guess how it could play out after that.
I think people are in denial about the true scale of the political, economic and social volatility the UK is currently in. The phoney peace is currently coming to an end, and people are starting to wake up.
On topic, from a betting point of view, I think the odds that A50 wont be triggered until the second half of next year are very good.
Welcome. Another voice of sanity.
I disagree with you around the odds of A50 though. Or rather, I think that now that May has set a date, it's either that or an early election.
The voice of ill informed lunacy more like.
Gracious welcome to a newcomer!
What is it with some Leavers and alternative points of view?
If they are ill informed and partial then they do not deserve to be treated any other way.
So we are at get three in a hunded wrong people wrong in the polls and we have an almighty shock territory.
With a sample size of 500 that is 15 people
Honestly, I've seen enough bias everywhere to ignore the polling and look entirely at the campaign behaviour now.
If HRC was as far ahead as claimed - they wouldn't be resorting to implying that Trump's a paedo or serial groper from 35yrs ago. It smacks of desperation, not clear lead. Hillary isn't campaigning again today - even Michelle is turning out for an event.
There's a problem that's more than a course of anti-biotics.
Plato: the problem is that you're not looking at the campaign behaviour: you're looking at the campaign behaviour through the prism of a one-sided set of sources, with your mind already set to look for things which reinforce your existing view.
Thus you ignore polling that contradicts your view, and say it's because they are biased.
From your posts, I'd say it's much more likely that you're biased than the polls.
Im looking at it from the view of making some more money out of William Hill.
I now scroll by Mr Jessop as he's rude or passive aggressive towards me.
I bother to read and watch Wikileaks and propaganda from all sides. I share what seems most likely to shake up lazy views. I found the Young Turks video re Bernie fascinating - they were very unhappy with the corporate culture too - for another yet valid reasons.
TBH, that PB is paying zip attention tells me a great deal about the balance of opinion. Hundreds of posts nitpicking over Marmite FFS. I'm looking at this as a strategic shift in the US - whomever wins. We've 28 days to go and several have already called it.
Why? Are they so convinced it's all over whilst Wiki is dumping horror stories every few hours? And have another 35000 emails to go before the 30k Hillary deleted?
Brave decision.
"I now scroll by Mr Jessop as he's rude or passive aggressive towards me."
Plato, that's not true.
If I see a post of yours that's worthy of comment - for or against your view - I shall do so.
Julian Wan Hillary's advisers complain the campaign is pointless, shallow, and without message. #Wikileaks #StrongerTogether #ImWithHer #MAGA3X https://t.co/UNJSCB7psO
Julian Wan Hillary's advisers complain the campaign is pointless, shallow, and without message. #Wikileaks #StrongerTogether #ImWithHer #MAGA3X https://t.co/UNJSCB7psO
Not Hillary's advisers complaining. It's a media columnist writing to Hillary's advisory to complain. It's right there in the Sender and Recipient e-mail addresses!!!
Via Mike Cernovich TRUMP ACCUSER LOL #ANONYMOUS Guess she forgot to erase her tracks fast Hillary Clinton your team is pathetic lets keep playing this game https://t.co/DFUHGCiFxO
Edit
Know many detest him, but it's true
Alex Jones did more with $100,000 than anyone else in politics did with one million. https://t.co/30wTiuUE8n
I was joking earlier that the gorilla that escaped had heard about the Marmite shortages. Apparently the think he went ape because he had been put on a diet* !!!
Comments
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37650234
Well blow me down with a feather...
We liberal eliters are desperate for someone with a bit of fight to stick it the three Brexiteers.
Look at Aaronovitch's piece today lauding Starmer as the next Labour leader - after one good news cycle!
Sturgeon will Sturgeon, but there's no reason to give her ammunition. I think we need the brave, open Brexit of, I guess, Boris Johnson. May had/has the opportunity to take the great majority of the country with her. She won't if she appears like UKIP light.
By the way, your premise that the EU has a logical conclusion through dissolution of the nation state is a sad, Brexit myth. It doesn't stand up to reason, or the facts.
NEW THREAD
Well, it's a view.
Washex.am
Trump: Media's agenda is to elect Clinton no matter how many lives they destroy https://t.co/Frz7jkwFjj https://t.co/86XVd2KKGZ
And looking at the policy of France, Germany, and the U.K. within the EU over the last decade or so - neither do they.
What is it with some Leavers and alternative points of view?
My own view is that it's when no one can see a catalyst for change in sight that change occurs.
I bother to read and watch Wikileaks and propaganda from all sides. I share what seems most likely to shake up lazy views. I found the Young Turks video re Bernie fascinating - they were very unhappy with the corporate culture too - for another yet valid reasons.
TBH, that PB is paying zip attention tells me a great deal about the balance of opinion. Hundreds of posts nitpicking over Marmite FFS. I'm looking at this as a strategic shift in the US - whomever wins. We've 28 days to go and several have already called it.
Why? Are they so convinced it's all over whilst Wiki is dumping horror stories every few hours? And have another 35000 emails to go before the 30k Hillary deleted?
Brave decision.
https://youtu.be/4h4DPdJ8WbE
Poland won't endorse former Polish PM Donald Tusk for a second term as EU Council President. Speaks volumes. https://t.co/4yztFoqEho
Plato, that's not true.
If I see a post of yours that's worthy of comment - for or against your view - I shall do so.
BUSTED: Drunken Child Abuser & Hoaxer #MindyMcGillivray Falsely Claims Trump “Nudged” Her At Never-Happened Concert https://t.co/Xy1I2jpIGE
Julian Wan
Hillary's advisers complain the campaign is pointless, shallow, and without message. #Wikileaks #StrongerTogether #ImWithHer #MAGA3X https://t.co/UNJSCB7psO
Why are you doing this?
Villi Conservative
Wikileaks emails now reveal that even @FoxNews was feeding Hillary questions in advance‼️
We can't trust anybody any more‼️‼️
Via Mike Cernovich
TRUMP ACCUSER LOL #ANONYMOUS Guess she forgot to erase her tracks fast Hillary Clinton your team is pathetic lets keep playing this game
Edit
Know many detest him, but it's true
Alex Jones did more with $100,000 than anyone else in politics did with one million. https://t.co/30wTiuUE8n
Go jerry, go jerry, go jerry.
* not a joke.