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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,995
    edited July 2013
    JackW said:



    Rutland - Excellent idea. Squeeze the mp's into historic Oakham Castle !!

    Surely that would be MEPs? A sea of acronyms for our legislators.

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Should England eventually have a national assembly where would PBers like to see it located ?

    Perhaps one of the historic locations - York, Oxford or Winchester ??

    Given all the paraphenalia that would accompany it, it would need to be in a major city - Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds.

    If it could be squeezed somewhere historic York or Rutland.
    Rutland - Excellent idea. Squeeze the mp's into historic Oakham Castle !!
    It would sort of remind them of the principles of small government :-)
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    Should England eventually have a national assembly where would PBers like to see it located ?

    Perhaps one of the historic locations - York, Oxford or Winchester ??

    I'd want somewhere up North, so York seems like an attractive option. Just need a spur off the M1, and a bit of an extension of HS2! Would also be a nice coup for the Yorkists after their humiliating defeat in '85.
    York certainly appeals to my Jacobite sensibilities with the white rose/cockade.

    So York or Rutland it is !!
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724



    then Labour's bust. TU donations in kind alone amount to more than £5k p.a. so they'd all have to be scaled back and Unions couldn't give them any cash. Or maybe the system get gamed again and we end up with 2000 small unions. Where money and politics are involved the rules will be bent.

    Indeed. If there's a cap from an organisation - then say GE funding will have to be from hundreds of small units - say CLPs or whatever.

    Trying to remove the money from politics is impossible - like water, it will find a way to reach its destination point and leak out.
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420

    Ho ho. I thought that Project Fear had given up on the "Arc of Insolvency" jibes.

    And here's why:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

    Hint: look at where Ireland and Iceland are, relative to the Yookay.

    Jim Murphy slagging off Ireland, Norway, Iceland etc was a great chortle here at PB at the time. Not so funny now, huh?


    Swedie-boy,

    You've been away, so may be out-off-the-loop: Check PPP, GNI, NNI for comparisons.* As the Oirish Finance Minister admits actual income in The Republic is about 70% of the headline figure. **

    * I believe Neil offers remedial classes for you and your ilk.
    ** See t'Economist.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    With Parliament rising for the summer next week, it looks like the PM is packing in as much as possible before everyone goes for a break.

    I’m hearing a mini-reshuffle is expected next week now (with perhaps only 8 or so posts at sub-Cabinet level changing). Tuesday, Thursday (when the House formally rises) and Friday are all mooted as possible days for the announcement.

    Watch for some rising stars to get advancement and some of the older guard to realise their time is up.

    More importantly, a limited Cabinet reshuffle is expected to take place next spring to get the Coaliton teams ready for the election. Women will be a priority. The bookies should cut their odds on Liz Truss getting a promotion.

    The idea of splitting a reshuffle over July and then September seems to have been roundly rubbished http://www.politicshome.com/uk/article/81670/reshuffle_kerfuffle.html
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,422
    My reading is that the Tories need constant poll leads from firms like ICM of 7%+ before securing an overall majority comes into the frame.

    Nah, there's only one day on which it matters. The polling two years beforehand takes into account all sorts of factors that will have changed by then, from it not being a *real* poll taken after real scrutiny has been given to the various parties and leaders, to the improvements in the economy that are likely to occur between now and 2015.

    To put the scale of change into context, the Tories only need a net swing of about a third of a percentage point per month from Labour (though some of that would also come from UKIP to Con and Lab to LD), in the 22 months between now and the election to be in majority-winning territory.

    Ref the LD / UKIP figures, they're probably right. The chances of the Lib Dems securing an overall majority are actually much less than the 0.5% quoted. I cannot think of any credible scenario by which they will gain support on 2010 after the events of the last three years (they may well gain some back between now and 2015 but not the full 10-15% they've lost since last time). By contrast, in bad times, there is an outside chance that a populist party *with no historic failure behind it* could capitalise on the simultaneous unpopularity of all three established parties and secure 25-30% at a general election, especially if their leader takes part in, and performs very well in, national debates. It is highly unlikely (the 100/1 is probably right), but it's not inconceivable.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Should England eventually have a national assembly where would PBers like to see it located ?

    Perhaps one of the historic locations - York, Oxford or Winchester ??

    Given all the paraphenalia that would accompany it, it would need to be in a major city - Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds.

    If it could be squeezed somewhere historic York or Rutland.
    Rutland - Excellent idea. Squeeze the mp's into historic Oakham Castle !!
    It would sort of remind them of the principles of small government :-)
    Rutland motto - Multum in Parvo - Much in Little.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    @David_Herdson

    Good point - it'd be interesting to know how much polls change DURING a GE campaign and if they changed the result from start to end - much, at all, the Party who won.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Will Balls and other union paid Mps be heckling Cameron or rEd at PMQs today ?

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Having been on the receiving end of this - I concur.

    "Patients' lives are being put at risk because thousands of healthcare assistants in hospitals across the country receive no training at all, an inquiry has found.

    A third of trusts do not even check whether the assistants, who carry out a range of vital caring tasks instead of nurses, can read or write properly, according to a government-commissioned study. The only training some staff received before caring for the sick was watching a DVD.

    Report author Camilla Cavendish warned the NHS is 'extremely bad at getting rid of people', damaging public confidence in the entire health service.

    'I think what you need is proper leadership and management, which is in every care home and every hospital the employers are held responsible for the quality of those staff and they are held responsible for meeting certain basic standards of competence and care,; she told BBC Radio 4.

    The situation is so dangerous because on most wards there are more healthcare assistants than fully-trained nurses.

    The Cavendish review was ordered in the wake of the Mid Staffs scandal in which hundreds of patients are thought to have died needlessly as a result of poor care and neglect.


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359128/Cavendish-report-warns-thousands-untrained-healthcare-assistants-putting-patients-lives-risk.html#ixzz2Yd5A5XvY
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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    No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,853
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Should England eventually have a national assembly where would PBers like to see it located ?

    Perhaps one of the historic locations - York, Oxford or Winchester ??

    Given all the paraphenalia that would accompany it, it would need to be in a major city - Birmingham, Manchester or Leeds.

    If it could be squeezed somewhere historic York or Rutland.
    Rutland - Excellent idea. Squeeze the mp's into historic Oakham Castle !!
    It would sort of remind them of the principles of small government :-)
    Rutland motto - Multum in Parvo - Much in Little.
    The motto of my old school is "Parva Magna Crescunt".
    (will that go through the obscenity filter ?)
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    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    "But in the past incumbency works for the yellows much more than the other parties": very probably a side effect of being regarded as a party which would never be in power, therefore able to be very good constituency MPs because of lack of distractions, and not to blame for anything happening on a national scale.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And simple but effective recommendations:

    "All healthcare assistants in hospitals and home helps employed by councils should undergo the same basic level of training so that the public could be confident they were ‘up to the job’, Miss Cavendish said.

    They should be forced to go through a two-week induction and then undergo a six-month probation period, during which they are monitored to ensure they are providing decent care. If they fail, they would have to be sacked.

    Miss Cavendish said there was a tendency to ‘understate’ what we regard as basic patient care, what it actually involves and how important it is.

    ‘I’m proposing a certificate of fundamental care which will be a basic minimum of care.. infection control, dementia awareness...

    ‘The best hospitals are giving people inductions and then having long probationary periods where members of staff are supervised. Everything I’ve recommended is based on what the best organisations are doing,’ she said.

    She said there had to be a cultural change in the NHS towards the role of care staff.

    ‘There are 60 different titles for healthcare assistants – they should all be called nursing assistants, they should have clear job descriptions, and be held accountable against what they are responsible for.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2359128/Cavendish-report-warns-thousands-untrained-healthcare-assistants-putting-patients-lives-risk.html#ixzz2Yd5ssqoi
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    tim said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Exclusive: Miliband's proposed donation cap will be £5,000. http://t.co/O6C2UYhwPG

    Very sensible

    And it will apply to Trade Unions

    except when it doesn't.
    It would apply to all TU donations
    then Labour's bust. TU donations in kind alone amount to more than £5k p.a. so they'd all have to be scaled back and Unions couldn't give them any cash. Or maybe the system get gamed again and we end up with 2000 small unions. Where money and politics are involved the rules will be bent.

    That's the risk Ed is taking
    And the idea that Trades Unions will break themselves up we'll file under "PB Tories on acid"

    I don't think Dave wants a cap that forces political parties to build a mass membership though.
    colour me sceptical. That Ed would risk Labour offending his paymasters when he's up to his eyes in debts is highly unlikely imo. I doubt he'll want his legacy to be the man who bankrupted Labour.

    As for payments, that rather depends on how it's done and how legislation is written, there's lots of scope for creative accountancy. And still the biggest scope remains TU benefits in kind and how that will be accounted for. However Ed has remained helpfully obtuse on his plan so we'll just have to see how it develops. Maybe it will need some focus groups, or he'll publish the details at 2 a.m. on a rainy Tuesday after all the leader debates.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    RE:WLQ

    In Wales there is always pressure for more than the 60AMs as the case is made that the WG is not subject to enough scrutiny. There is of course resistance from the electorate to the employment of more politicians.

    However, I see no reason that (if HoC business is organised correctly) that the 40 Welsh MPs could not sit as a form of Upper Chamber in Cardiff, in the rest of their time, and scrutinise the work of the WG and AMs.

    At least it would stop my local MP from saying that topics like health, education etc are nothing to do with him as there are devolved matters. Of course the cost of these MPs could be split between Westminster and Cardiff.

    Probably the same arrangement could work for Scotland (presuming no independence) and NI.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    More tightening up of the Civil Service

    "The Civil Service is already 15 per cent smaller than at the time of the last election. It’s the smallest it has been since the Second World War. But with fewer staff, it’s doing more. This jump in productivity contrasts with the period from 1997 to 2010, when public sector productivity flat-lined...

    None of these new proposals require legislation or affect the fundamental Civil Service values which are enshrined in law.

    Our changes include:

    - Allowing ministers to establish Extended Ministerial Offices (EMOs). The officials and special advisers in these offices can be personally appointed by the minister to whom they will be accountable. These offices will include career Civil Servants working alongside other officials, brought in from outside on fixed-term appointments to provide - for example - policy advice, as well as special advisers.

    - Moving Permanent Secretaries on to fixed-tenure appointments. This will sharpen accountability and make a reality of an announcement that the then Prime Minister Tony Blair made back in 2004.

    - Introducing cross-Whitehall functional leadership. These heads of function (such as HR and procurement) will help drive greater savings and strengthen the corporate culture.

    - Strengthening the accountability of Civil Servants to Parliament. We are reviewing the Osmotherly rules and will announce our changes in due course. http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2013/07/francis-maude-mp-fixed-tenure-permanent-secretaries-and-much-more-our-next-steps-in-civil-service-re.html
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    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    JackW said:

    Jack, I note that your preliminary Scotch ARSE is predicting a 60/40 victory for Alistair Darling's "Project Fear" campaign.

    In that case, I assume that you consider Paddy Power's 5/6 on the YES vote percentage being lower that 41.5% to be money in the bank? How much have you put on?

    Incorrect Stuart.

    The 60/40 was my own initial view. My tartan ARSE, not a "Scotch ARSE", has yet to issue its first projection and will not do so until the autumn.

    The PP 5/6 is value but I rarely tie money up in long date wagers and more personally the allowed stakes are often too paltry to bother !!
    Re "the allowed stakes are often too paltry to bother": agreed. PP allow me pathetic sums on political bets, no doubt due to my wins at the Scottish GE 2011. Hills are only slightly better, but will only allow me 50 GBP on Yes.

    Mind you, Victor Chandler takes the biscuit. They were in such a huff over my wins they closed my account.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,366
    @DavidKendrick

    "Over 80% of the money on Betfair is now 'professional', where there is no element of wanting a particular result."

    I believe, David, that a high proportion is also robotic. Certainly in horse racing margins have been squeezed to the point where I find myself using the exchanges less and less.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Betfair most seats

    Lab 1.7
    Con 2.44

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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Having lived and worked in York during the early days of PB having moving from Oxford I would back it.

    A great city but like many of the places that I have lived/work in lost its league football in recent times. Same with Oxford, Cambridge and Bedfordshire (Luton). Oxford United only returned after I'd left the city.



    JackW said:

    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    Should England eventually have a national assembly where would PBers like to see it located ?

    Perhaps one of the historic locations - York, Oxford or Winchester ??

    I'd want somewhere up North, so York seems like an attractive option. Just need a spur off the M1, and a bit of an extension of HS2! Would also be a nice coup for the Yorkists after their humiliating defeat in '85.
    York certainly appeals to my Jacobite sensibilities with the white rose/cockade.

    So York or Rutland it is !!
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    Stuart_DicksonStuart_Dickson Posts: 3,557
    JackW said:

    Should England eventually have a national assembly where would PBers like to see it located ?

    Perhaps one of the historic locations - York, Oxford or Winchester ??

    Was Athelstan's capital not at Malmsebury? Or was it Winchester?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malmesbury

    Fine place.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    This will be rubbished but...

    Dylan Sharpe @dylsharpe
    Well look at that, Tory Govt creating a more equal society than under Labour! MT @ITVLauraK ONS says income inequality at lowest since 1986

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/household-income/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income/2011-2012/etb-stats-bulletin-2011-12.html

    There was a fall in income inequality between 2010/11 and 2011/12. This was driven partly by earnings falling for higher income households and partly by changes in taxes and benefits. These changes include an increase in the income tax personal allowance and changes to National Insurance Contributions and Child Tax Credits.

    Disposable incomes have fallen since the start of the economic downturn, with average equivalised income falling by £1,200 since 2007/08 in real terms. The fall in income has been largest for the richest fifth of households (6.8%). In contrast, after accounting for inflation and household composition, average income for the poorest fifth has grown over this period (6.9%).

    Before taxes and benefits, the richest fifth of households had an average income of £78,300 in 2011/12, 14 times greater than the poorest fifth, who had an average income of £5,400.

    Overall, taxes and benefits lead to income being shared more equally between households. After all taxes and benefits are taken into account, the ratio between the average incomes of the top and the bottom fifth of households (£57,300 per year and £15,800 respectively) is reduced to four-to-one.

    The proportion of disposable income paid in indirect taxes increased across the income distribution in 2011/12 compared with the previous two years. This is largely explained by the increase in the standard rate of VAT in 2010 and 2011.

    On average, households in the top two income quintiles paid more in taxes than they received in benefits, while households in the bottom three quintiles received more in benefits than they paid in taxes.
  • Options
    tim said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Exclusive: Miliband's proposed donation cap will be £5,000. http://t.co/O6C2UYhwPG

    Very sensible

    And it will apply to Trade Unions

    except when it doesn't.
    It would apply to all TU donations
    then Labour's bust. TU donations in kind alone amount to more than £5k p.a. so they'd all have to be scaled back and Unions couldn't give them any cash. Or maybe the system get gamed again and we end up with 2000 small unions. Where money and politics are involved the rules will be bent.

    That's the risk Ed is taking
    And the idea that Trades Unions will break themselves up we'll file under "PB Tories on acid"

    I don't think Dave wants a cap that forces political parties to build a mass membership though.
    colour me sceptical. That Ed would risk Labour offending his paymasters when he's up to his eyes in debts is highly unlikely imo. I doubt he'll want his legacy to be the man who bankrupted Labour.

    As for payments, that rather depends on how it's done and how legislation is written, there's lots of scope for creative accountancy. And still the biggest scope remains TU benefits in kind and how that will be accounted for. However Ed has remained helpfully obtuse on his plan so we'll just have to see how it develops. Maybe it will need some focus groups, or he'll publish the details at 2 a.m. on a rainy Tuesday after all the leader debates.
    Dave is going to try and run from the leaders debates as he ran from monthly press conferences when trouble hits.

    But Cameron can accept Labours offer to take union leaders out of the funding equation (above £5k) if he wants to.
    I don't think he wants to.
    You don't think he should wait to find out the details first then? He should just accept the lot based on a plan that wasn't even being considered a couple of weeks ago. Seriously?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    edited July 2013
    tim said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Exclusive: Miliband's proposed donation cap will be £5,000. http://t.co/O6C2UYhwPG

    Very sensible

    And it will apply to Trade Unions

    except when it doesn't.
    It would apply to all TU donations
    then Labour's bust. TU donations in kind alone amount to more than £5k p.a. so they'd all have to be scaled back and Unions couldn't give them any cash. Or maybe the system get gamed again and we end up with 2000 small unions. Where money and politics are involved the rules will be bent.

    That's the risk Ed is taking
    And the idea that Trades Unions will break themselves up we'll file under "PB Tories on acid"

    I don't think Dave wants a cap that forces political parties to build a mass membership though.
    colour me sceptical. That Ed would risk Labour offending his paymasters when he's up to his eyes in debts is highly unlikely imo. I doubt he'll want his legacy to be the man who bankrupted Labour.

    As for payments, that rather depends on how it's done and how legislation is written, there's lots of scope for creative accountancy. And still the biggest scope remains TU benefits in kind and how that will be accounted for. However Ed has remained helpfully obtuse on his plan so we'll just have to see how it develops. Maybe it will need some focus groups, or he'll publish the details at 2 a.m. on a rainy Tuesday after all the leader debates.
    Dave is going to try and run from the leaders debates as he ran from monthly press conferences when trouble hits.

    But Cameron can accept Labours offer to take union leaders out of the funding equation (above £5k) if he wants to.
    I don't think he wants to.
    What's Cameron got to do with it ? Ed's Union issue is Ed's. and Ed's alone and atm he's grandstanding and hoping the problem will be forgotten. He's only in this pickle because he has nothing to say about the country so his agenda is now getting written for him. His silence of the bland policy only works if he can stay on the attack, as soon as the opposition hit back big holes open up because there's nothing there to fill them.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,366
    @StuartDickson

    At least Victor Chandler have the honesty to close accounts outright.

    The other scoundrels rid themselves of winning customers by restricting them to ridiculously small bets.

    It is time the Gambling Commission took a look at this practice.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405
    tim said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    tim said:

    @TheStaggers: Exclusive: Miliband's proposed donation cap will be £5,000. http://t.co/O6C2UYhwPG

    Very sensible

    And it will apply to Trade Unions

    except when it doesn't.
    It would apply to all TU donations
    then Labour's bust. TU donations in kind alone amount to more than £5k p.a. so they'd all have to be scaled back and Unions couldn't give them any cash. Or maybe the system get gamed again and we end up with 2000 small unions. Where money and politics are involved the rules will be bent.

    That's the risk Ed is taking
    And the idea that Trades Unions will break themselves up we'll file under "PB Tories on acid"

    I don't think Dave wants a cap that forces political parties to build a mass membership though.
    colour me sceptical. That Ed would risk Labour offending his paymasters when he's up to his eyes in debts is highly unlikely imo. I doubt he'll want his legacy to be the man who bankrupted Labour.

    As for payments, that rather depends on how it's done and how legislation is written, there's lots of scope for creative accountancy. And still the biggest scope remains TU benefits in kind and how that will be accounted for. However Ed has remained helpfully obtuse on his plan so we'll just have to see how it develops. Maybe it will need some focus groups, or he'll publish the details at 2 a.m. on a rainy Tuesday after all the leader debates.
    Dave is going to try and run from the leaders debates as he ran from monthly press conferences when trouble hits.

    With all the excitement of the Speech you probably missed my request yesterday:

    Can you please suggest a sensible bet that reflects your views on the leaders' debates.

  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    This is very funny even if you think its wrong EdM vs The Unions cartoon

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOzONoQCcAAlM5O.jpg:large
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    It is an interesting piece of statistics, but seems to be mostly a leveling down.

    So despite all the screams of anguish, we are a more equal society than 2010.

    It seems to be a good thing that Labour plan to follow the same policies, but we come back to the same question. What would be the point of a Labour government?
    Plato said:

    This will be rubbished but...

    Dylan Sharpe @dylsharpe
    Well look at that, Tory Govt creating a more equal society than under Labour! MT @ITVLauraK ONS says income inequality at lowest since 1986

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/household-income/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income/2011-2012/etb-stats-bulletin-2011-12.html

    There was a fall in income inequality between 2010/11 and 2011/12. This was driven partly by earnings falling for higher income households and partly by changes in taxes and benefits. These changes include an increase in the income tax personal allowance and changes to National Insurance Contributions and Child Tax Credits.

    Disposable incomes have fallen since the start of the economic downturn, with average equivalised income falling by £1,200 since 2007/08 in real terms. The fall in income has been largest for the richest fifth of households (6.8%). In contrast, after accounting for inflation and household composition, average income for the poorest fifth has grown over this period (6.9%).

    Before taxes and benefits, the richest fifth of households had an average income of £78,300 in 2011/12, 14 times greater than the poorest fifth, who had an average income of £5,400.

    Overall, taxes and benefits lead to income being shared more equally between households. After all taxes and benefits are taken into account, the ratio between the average incomes of the top and the bottom fifth of households (£57,300 per year and £15,800 respectively) is reduced to four-to-one.

    The proportion of disposable income paid in indirect taxes increased across the income distribution in 2011/12 compared with the previous two years. This is largely explained by the increase in the standard rate of VAT in 2010 and 2011.

    On average, households in the top two income quintiles paid more in taxes than they received in benefits, while households in the bottom three quintiles received more in benefits than they paid in taxes.

  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    Mary Riddel who frankly I usually dismiss as a Labour cheerleader in the DT is singing a slightly different tune today.

    Ed Miliband is no weakling but this union battle could destroy him.
    The Labour leader has picked a fight that has very little relevance to voters...

    He should instead be much more worried by the silent moderates fearful that the leader may go too far. In their view, Mr Miliband should temper his reforms with a proud defence of a union link intrinsic to the party’s history and future. “For God’s sake, proceed with caution,” says one senior figure, who speaks for what may be the majority of Labour MPs...

    The rise of Ukip and Euroscepticism is one example. While all the major parties have been inert [I have no idea what she's saying here as its nonsense re the Tories], Labour – still dithering over whether to hold a referendum – may reap the whirlwind by failing to make a proper defence of Europe at the outset. Even on smaller, totemic matters there is fudge or silence. On the iniquitous spare bedroom tax, for example, MPs are mortified that they have nothing to say on what has become the biggest doorstep issue. “People are furious,” says one leading party figure. “Yet we have no clear position.”

    Far from demonstrating his Iron Man credentials, Mr Miliband risks being drawn into a scuffle that increases contempt for politics in general and Labour in particular. The Ed and Len show is, at root, a battle of ideology and thus of supreme uninterest to voters engaged in their own survival struggles. Ideology pays no bills, minds no children, trains no teachers and offers no succour to the sick, the elderly and the dying. Mr Miliband’s huge gamble in moving his party to the Left can work only if he can prove that Labour will offer fair wages to those in penury, jobs and training for the young and care for the old. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10168911/Ed-Miliband-is-no-weakling-but-this-union-battle-could-destroy-him.html
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    richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    I see that David Blunkett has just this week taken a second job working for a City firm. He must be very impressed by Ed's speech yesterday
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,896
    Morning all :)

    Excellent to see the policy of raising personal allowances having the desired effect - taking the lowest paid out of tax and increasing their disposable income and thereby starting to erode income inequality.

    Something for Coalition supporters to be very happy about and plaudits to George Osborne for realising what a sensible and effective LD policy it was.

    On topic, it's difficult to fault OGH's logic and I've always thought that of the two mountains, the 21 seat hillside the Conservatives need to climb for their majority looked a tougher one than the 70 or so seat one Labour has to ascend.

    It's hard not to think that the vote share of the two main parties will be higher in 2015 than in 2010 and possibly back to around 75% so the battle is the same old battle in the same old seats which just goes to show nothing much changes in politics and we're back to ground organisations and marginal polling to give us some clues as to what might happen.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    @DavidKendrick

    "Over 80% of the money on Betfair is now 'professional', where there is no element of wanting a particular result."

    I believe, David, that a high proportion is also robotic. Certainly in horse racing margins have been squeezed to the point where I find myself using the exchanges less and less.

    An ex colleague of mine runs a tennis betting operation that uses software to compile odds and they then bet on betfair if there is a discrepancy.

    Ozzies apparently are playing a 19yo debutant slow left armer.

    Laying the draw is free money. Backing England at greater than evs is also good value. May be worth saving some bank for after the toss - could be a good one to lose.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Dylan Sharpe @dylsharpe
    Well look at that, Tory Govt creating a more equal society than under Labour! MT @ITVLauraK ONS says income inequality at lowest since 1986


    Not only is this nothing to be proud of, but it's a hideous example of how the State forces control and regulation on our lives. It's a socialist command economy.

    I want the freedom, the equality of opportunity and the lack of State heavy handed regulation and restriction to be able to succeed or fail. If I succeed I want to be able to do so without boundaries and with a personal nosebleed-high potential. If I fail I don't ask for more than to be picked up and dusted off in an emergency safety net for those with absolutely nothing so that I can try again.

    My measure of utopia for a country is a spectacularly unequal society where the top have got there purely on merit. And, of course, pay a flat rate of tax which is the other dreadful factoid from that link. If it costs 38% of income to run a country then it costs *everyone* 38%.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Though very unfashionable at almost every point in his Cabinet career and since - I've been a bit of a Blunkett fan. I read his autobiog and its fascinating greasy pole stuff

    I see that David Blunkett has just this week taken a second job working for a City firm. He must be very impressed by Ed's speech yesterday

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    So now the labour "fairness" argument has gone.

    Once again, what is the point of Labour ?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    So now the labour "fairness" argument has gone.

    Once again, what is the point of Labour ?

    The Third Way has destroyed it unless you yearn for the 70/80s if the Left are right. Most of us reject that idea - but it shows the paucity of thinking that this is best they can come up with = recycled politics that's failed everywhere.

    on another note

    ONS @statisticsONS
    Quality-adjusted labour input up 3.2% in 2012, following 1.4% in 2011 bit.ly/1aVg3WU
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    So now the labour "fairness" argument has gone.

    Once again, what is the point of Labour ?

    Faux class war and porkbarrelling.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Excellent to see the policy of raising personal allowances having the desired effect - taking the lowest paid out of tax and increasing their disposable income and thereby starting to erode income inequality.


    It's a great policy isn't it. I wonder how high we can raise the personal allowance? Certainly up to full time minimum wage, maybe even full time living wage. It would also be great if that process could be started before the election.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    For EdM fans and Mr Hodges is now in a minority of cheerleaders... http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100225777/forget-len-mccluskeys-crocodile-smile-eds-speech-really-was-a-historic-moment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    "One is the unhelpfully positive response from Len McCluskey. Over the past few days we’ve become accustomed to an avalanche of self-pitying, self-indulgent bombast from the Unite leader. But yesterday he was the epitome of moderation and restraint. Miliband’s speech was “visionary” he said. His union would engage “positively” with the proposals.

    All of which is jolly nice of him, but not necessarily indicative of the response of the union movement as a whole. Over the past week the other union general secretaries have been furious at McCluskey’s grandstanding. And my understanding is that Unite have now agreed to dial down the rhetoric and allow other unions to take a lead in responding to the Miliband plan.

    And their response is instructive. Paul Kenny, general secretary of the GMB union, was said to be “bouncing off the walls” over what Miliband had announced, something reflected in his slightly tortured description of the proposals as “completely without the necessary substance that is required to see if they are workable”. Ominously, he added that “in the scrum of publicity it is important to note that Ed Miliband has said that these ideas will take a considerable length of time to flesh out and if feasible to implement them”. Billy Hayes of the CWU described the announcement as “dog whistle” politics, whilst Dave Prentis of Unison described the whole thing as “an unforgivable diversion from the real issues that this country faces”. That last comment was probably directed as much at the leader of Unite as the leader of the Labour Party...
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763

    Shouldn't Labour just apologise for the last 20 years, wrap up their party and let the LDs get on with being the opposition ? At least the LDs get results.
    TGOHF said:

    So now the labour "fairness" argument has gone.

    Once again, what is the point of Labour ?

    Faux class war and porkbarrelling.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    JonathanD said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Excellent to see the policy of raising personal allowances having the desired effect - taking the lowest paid out of tax and increasing their disposable income and thereby starting to erode income inequality.


    It's a great policy isn't it. I wonder how high we can raise the personal allowance? Certainly up to full time minimum wage, maybe even full time living wage. It would also be great if that process could be started before the election.
    Indeed should be accelerated. Best thing the LDs have done in govt.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,002
    Weather forecast for Trent Bridge looks amazing - 5 days of sunshine ! Laying the draw here.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Just seen Mr Kenny on BBC24 - and he's grimly smiling at it all "Ed talked about *mending not ending* - I think he's ended it"
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,408
    edited July 2013
    So Bresnan or Finn? I would say Finn. If it is Bresnan England are more worried about their batting than they want to admit.

    Australia have called up a young mystery spinner. Looks like they have swallowed the line about spinning pitches.

    Given the weather forecast laying the draw here seems to me to be a no brainer. A winner is slightly harder to call. Australia will be enormously up for this and I think their best chance of a win in the series is the first or the last test.

    Edit. And its Finn. Good positive choice for England.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Pulpstar said:

    Weather forecast for Trent Bridge looks amazing - 5 days of sunshine ! Laying the draw here.

    Already have done too. Free money. All over that like a cheap suit.

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    Morning all,

    My prediction for the Ashes is 3-1 England but I think the best bet on England, assuming England are on top, is for Joe Root to be top England batsman @ 11/2. As an opener, he is likely to get the most chance for runs if England ever face a small fourth innings total and he is in form. Obviously, Cook is the top man but I think the significantly longer price on Root is very fair.

    Swann looks the obvious choice for top bowler as England would have been mad not to try get pitches that turn a bit given Australia's struggle to find a spinner. But his record at TB is poor so it might be worth looking for longer prices after the first Test.

    Anyone else have last minute thoughts while we wait the last half hour?



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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    TGOHF said:

    So now the labour "fairness" argument has gone.

    Once again, what is the point of Labour ?

    Faux class war and porkbarrelling.
    I find this so depressing but you're spot on.

    The Class War advocated by numpties like Owen Jones and his Uncle Len are just snobbery dressed up as something worthy - and virtually everything I associate with Labour is playing to the Pressure Group Gallery of minorities, health care and safety nazis et al.

    All parties have their fair share of lobbyist - but Labour has cornered the market in those that demand we pay for them to boss us about and in many cases live rather better-off lives. The ludicrous Bedroom Tax being a prime example of their hypocrisy.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Seumas Milne takes an unsurprising line on Ed Miliband's union reforms:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/09/labour-unite

    He does, however, make one arresting point:

    "Miliband yesterday denounced Falkirk as the "death-throes" of a "hated machine politics". In reality, it was New Labour which deployed machine politics over two decades to parachute in croney candidates, often with the collaboration of pliant union officials.

    One consequence is the hopelessly unrepresentative nature of the parliamentary Labour party, only 9% of whose members are now from a manual occupation, compared with 40% in 1979 and 4% in parliament as a whole."
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    redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    edited July 2013
    England and Wales playing Oz in the ashes,
    I wonder if the English will fly union jacks as not just an English team?
    Thought not.
    Maybe the welsh should get their own team as many in England have difficulty recognising they even exist as a joint team. No flag, just the English one so might as well just call it England as it is in all but very occasional name.
    Everyone is deemed English unless the players put up a stink and then we have to all be British it seems.
    Why is the all England club not called the all UK club I wonder?
    Does it only have authority over England? What about Guernsey where that good tennis player comes from that people say is English? Or that other one from Dunblane that Inverdale thinks is English? : )
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,896
    As an LD, in the unlikely event that we're in a position to be part of another Government, I would have the continued rise in personal allowances as the absolute dealbreaker (it's certainly far more important than electoral reform).

    If we are entering some form of Osbornian golden economic age as Avery posits ad infinitum and ad nauseam, we should be aiming to raise the personal tax allowance threshold to £15k in the life of the next Parliament as well as raising the rate at which the 40% tax rate kicks in to perhaps £47,500 by 2020.

    These seem far more sensible policies than straight tax cuts which some seem to be advocating and which would disproportionately favour the minority of high earners rather than helping the majority of medium to low wage-earners.

    I'm surprised Labour aren't saying more about this.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    stodge said:

    As an LD, in the unlikely event that we're in a position to be part of another Government, I would have the continued rise in personal allowances as the absolute dealbreaker (it's certainly far more important than electoral reform).

    If we are entering some form of Osbornian golden economic age as Avery posits ad infinitum and ad nauseam, we should be aiming to raise the personal tax allowance threshold to £15k in the life of the next Parliament as well as raising the rate at which the 40% tax rate kicks in to perhaps £47,500 by 2020.

    These seem far more sensible policies than straight tax cuts which some seem to be advocating and which would disproportionately favour the minority of high earners rather than helping the majority of medium to low wage-earners.

    I'm surprised Labour aren't saying more about this.

    abolish uni fees and stop crippling the next generation
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,997
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Excellent to see the policy of raising personal allowances having the desired effect - taking the lowest paid out of tax and increasing their disposable income and thereby starting to erode income inequality.

    Something for Coalition supporters to be very happy about and plaudits to George Osborne for realising what a sensible and effective LD policy it was.

    On topic, it's difficult to fault OGH's logic and I've always thought that of the two mountains, the 21 seat hillside the Conservatives need to climb for their majority looked a tougher one than the 70 or so seat one Labour has to ascend.

    It's hard not to think that the vote share of the two main parties will be higher in 2015 than in 2010 and possibly back to around 75% so the battle is the same old battle in the same old seats which just goes to show nothing much changes in politics and we're back to ground organisations and marginal polling to give us some clues as to what might happen.

    I'd expect the Lib Dems to recover to 17/18% in 2015, UKIP to win 7% or so, and Others to win 5/6%.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    OT If you're on Twitter and your timeline is infested with tweets about stuff you really aren't interested in... try this.

    Go to Settings in Tweetdeck [ download it here if you want it separate from your browser page - http://tweetdeck.com/ , click on Mute and type in the words you don't want to read about - even if they're from your favourite Twits.

    I've already added MUFC and CFC to mine...
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,997
    Plato said:

    This will be rubbished but...

    Dylan Sharpe @dylsharpe
    Well look at that, Tory Govt creating a more equal society than under Labour! MT @ITVLauraK ONS says income inequality at lowest since 1986

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/household-income/the-effects-of-taxes-and-benefits-on-household-income/2011-2012/etb-stats-bulletin-2011-12.html

    There was a fall in income inequality between 2010/11 and 2011/12. This was driven partly by earnings falling for higher income households and partly by changes in taxes and benefits. These changes include an increase in the income tax personal allowance and changes to National Insurance Contributions and Child Tax Credits.

    Disposable incomes have fallen since the start of the economic downturn, with average equivalised income falling by £1,200 since 2007/08 in real terms. The fall in income has been largest for the richest fifth of households (6.8%). In contrast, after accounting for inflation and household composition, average income for the poorest fifth has grown over this period (6.9%).

    Before taxes and benefits, the richest fifth of households had an average income of £78,300 in 2011/12, 14 times greater than the poorest fifth, who had an average income of £5,400.

    Overall, taxes and benefits lead to income being shared more equally between households. After all taxes and benefits are taken into account, the ratio between the average incomes of the top and the bottom fifth of households (£57,300 per year and £15,800 respectively) is reduced to four-to-one.

    The proportion of disposable income paid in indirect taxes increased across the income distribution in 2011/12 compared with the previous two years. This is largely explained by the increase in the standard rate of VAT in 2010 and 2011.

    On average, households in the top two income quintiles paid more in taxes than they received in benefits, while households in the bottom three quintiles received more in benefits than they paid in taxes.

    It's not good news, though, as it involves levelling down, rather than levelling up.

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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    *sigh*

    So the Indie scoop on a WLQ 'solution' is based on briefings on an Oliver Nitwit/Danny Alexander master strategy?

    Pity.

    I'll believe it when I see the legislation.


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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    For those wondering who'd be effected by the ECHR view re whole-life tariffs, here are the contenders. http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/law/article3811907.ece

    "When life means life

    The 49 with whole-life tariffs include:

    Jeremy Bamber Shot dead adoptive parents, sister and twin nephews

    Douglas Vinter Released from life sentence for murder, then killed wife

    Peter Moore Killed, mutilated men

    Robert Maudsley Jailed for murder, he killed three more men in prison

    Dennis Nilsen Muswell Hill killer

    Rosemary West Wife of Fred West

    Stephen Griffiths Crossbow cannibal

    Levi Bellfield Milly Dowler killer

    Dale Cregan Police killer

    Mark Bridger April Jones’s killer

    Steve Wright Suffolk Strangler

    Peter Sutcliffe Yorkshire Ripper

    Ian Brady Moors murderer"
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,997
    tim said:

    The Spectator ‏@spectator
    I’ll tell you what really devalues marriage: patronising, preachy little tax breaks, says @hugorifkind. http://specc.ie/11j6pu1

    Try telling Date Night Dave that, and all he sees are the photo ops.

    Deploy the Sam Cam.

    But I'll bet that he won't turn up his nose at the absolutely mouth-watering tax breaks that well-off married couples get in relation to Inheritance Tax, and Capital Gains Tax.
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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited July 2013
    I assume this is Ozzies fault as well....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23251821

    Small government in action: Corporate interests defeated. The free-market will out...!
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,366

    Morning all,

    My prediction for the Ashes is 3-1 England but I think the best bet on England, assuming England are on top, is for Joe Root to be top England batsman @ 11/2. As an opener, he is likely to get the most chance for runs if England ever face a small fourth innings total and he is in form. Obviously, Cook is the top man but I think the significantly longer price on Root is very fair.

    Swann looks the obvious choice for top bowler as England would have been mad not to try get pitches that turn a bit given Australia's struggle to find a spinner. But his record at TB is poor so it might be worth looking for longer prices after the first Test.

    Anyone else have last minute thoughts while we wait the last half hour?



    That Root call looks a good one, Lucian. I'm joining you.

    Good luck to us all.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    antifrank said:

    Seumas Milne takes an unsurprising line on Ed Miliband's union reforms:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/09/labour-unite

    He does, however, make one arresting point:

    "Miliband yesterday denounced Falkirk as the "death-throes" of a "hated machine politics". In reality, it was New Labour which deployed machine politics over two decades to parachute in croney candidates, often with the collaboration of pliant union officials.

    One consequence is the hopelessly unrepresentative nature of the parliamentary Labour party, only 9% of whose members are now from a manual occupation, compared with 40% in 1979 and 4% in parliament as a whole."

    So laments the Winchester and Balliol horny-handed son of toil.
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    Still not convinced about Bairstow as Test batsman.

    And not totally happy about those clouds.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2013
    LOL

    Hopi Sen @hopisen
    Own up. Who put 'provide helpful quotes for Tory leader to use at PMQs' in Job Description for Trade Union general secretaries? You scamp!
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Once of this parish

    Aaron Bell @AaronBell80
    @DPJHodges England 6-1
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited July 2013

    In Major's second election his share of the two-party share declined by 13.4 percentage points, to 41.5%. A similar decline for Cameron would put him on 42.1% of the two-party share, which would be about 27.4% on a static two-party share, against Labour's 37.7%. Miliband just short of a 100-seat majority...
    Miliband is no Blair...
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Cracking start by Oz :)
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    Ghost of Harmison past bowling first ball.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @JohnO He's an easy target but he makes a fair point. Our MPs are not remotely representative of anything other than themselves.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,896

    stodge said:

    As an LD, in the unlikely event that we're in a position to be part of another Government, I would have the continued rise in personal allowances as the absolute dealbreaker (it's certainly far more important than electoral reform).

    If we are entering some form of Osbornian golden economic age as Avery posits ad infinitum and ad nauseam, we should be aiming to raise the personal tax allowance threshold to £15k in the life of the next Parliament as well as raising the rate at which the 40% tax rate kicks in to perhaps £47,500 by 2020.

    These seem far more sensible policies than straight tax cuts which some seem to be advocating and which would disproportionately favour the minority of high earners rather than helping the majority of medium to low wage-earners.

    I'm surprised Labour aren't saying more about this.

    abolish uni fees and stop crippling the next generation
    Even if the LDs wanted to do it, I suspect neither the Labour nor the Conservative parties would. I agree the commitment to abolishing fees was a disastrous political error for which the Party will be paying for a long time to come.

    That said:

    http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/university-tuition-fees/repaying-your-student-loan/if-you-come-from-england/

    Given what we have, my immediate thoughts are that the income at which loans start to become repayable could be raised to perhaps £30k to give more people more time to start building up savings and I would also be looking at the interest rates charged on the loans and asking if these loans shouldn't really be interest-free. It's part of the investment we're making in the individual and the individual is making in themselves and thereby for the benefit of the whole economy.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    @tim - Just by chance, I can't recall how it happened, but I had supper with young Seumas (whom I knew slightly at college) in 1984 in Bournemouth the same evening following Kinnock's attack on Militant. I was gushing with enthusiasm at the speech - he was rather less impressed. Can't think why! Of course Hugh Gaitskell was also a Wykehamist.

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    tim said:

    So now the labour "fairness" argument has gone.

    Once again, what is the point of Labour ?

    Osborne wanting credit for inequality falling after three years without growth is like the Spanish govt trumpeting a fall in net migration as a sign of success.
    It's not difficult, but you'd be an idiot to rely on perma-stagnation to achieve policy goals.

    The Gini coefficient has been broadly flat since Fatcha trebled benefit dependency.

    https://twitter.com/dlknowles/status/354890013655330816/photo/1


    Back on the attack, because you can't actually answer the question.

    Ed's whole house of cards is built on saying nothing and keeping the pressure on the other side. But once "events" kick in and the pressure is back on Labour Ed's policy vacuum gets filled by events outside his control and the gaping holes in Labour's policy fabric become obvious.

    Ed's now got a problem. Crosby appears to be stopping the self inflicted grief, the economy is picking up and the better off are paying more. So what's Ed going to do ? It appears the government might not want to lose the next election after all and Ed's doing nothing to win it. Call it quits and let the LDs hold the blues to account, at least they get results without bankrupting the country.

    Really what is the point of Labour ? Care to give a reply ?
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    I really rate these Aussie quicks but they seem a yard off with every ball.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    antifrank said:

    @JohnO He's an easy target but he makes a fair point. Our MPs are not remotely representative of anything other than themselves.

    Have they ever been? Tory MPs today are far more representative (no, far less unrepresentative) of Tory voters in terms of background/occupation/gender than ever before.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215
    @tim - Perhaps he wanted to put me, a mere grammar school lad, at ease. After all, he's a gent.
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    Root seemed to be falling over a bit there.

    God, I'm nervous. Feck knows how he feels.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Charles said:


    In Major's second election his share of the two-party share declined by 13.4 percentage points, to 41.5%. A similar decline for Cameron would put him on 42.1% of the two-party share, which would be about 27.4% on a static two-party share, against Labour's 37.7%. Miliband just short of a 100-seat majority...
    Miliband is no Blair...Are you suggesting that the political colossus Gordon Brown was a more formidable opponent for Cameron in 2010 than Kinnock faced in John Major in 1992?

    Are you Gabble in disguise?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I do hope all those who moan about the occasional TV or film review aren't cricket fans... ;^ )
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    There was a White Flight debate on here yesterday - this is pertinent

    Eric Kaufmann @epkaufm
    ONS LS: London white British working class leaving London at faster rate than professionals. Some indication of trend toward widening gap
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,997
    JohnO said:

    antifrank said:

    @JohnO He's an easy target but he makes a fair point. Our MPs are not remotely representative of anything other than themselves.

    Have they ever been? Tory MPs today are far more representative (no, far less unrepresentative) of Tory voters in terms of background/occupation/gender than ever before.
    Unfortunately, one of the few genuinely working-class Conservative MPs of the 1950s and 60s, Ray Mawby, turned out to be a Czech spy.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Few things are more political than international sport!
    Plato said:

    I do hope all those who moan about the occasional TV or film review aren't cricket fans... ;^ )

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405
    tim said:

    JohnO said:

    @tim - Perhaps he wanted to put me, a mere grammar school lad, at ease. After all, he's a gent.

    He's a c*nt.

    Careful @tim you are upsetting our PB Tory moral compass - my enemy's enemy, etc...

    now as to that leaders debate bet, how about this:

    a £10 bet at evens that Cameron will participate in the leaders' debates

    assumptions: if they don't happen you win, if there is any number of debates and he participates I win, if there is any number of debates with the leaders of LibDem and Lab and not Cameron you win, if there is a "special" debate with the leaders of any three (!) of LibDem, Labour, UKIP, SNP and not Cameron you win. Debates to be defined as debate format (eg. not if Clegg/EdM are both guests on Newsnight, etc).

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,978

    tim said:

    So now the labour "fairness" argument has gone.

    Once again, what is the point of Labour ?

    Osborne wanting credit for inequality falling after three years without growth is like the Spanish govt trumpeting a fall in net migration as a sign of success.
    It's not difficult, but you'd be an idiot to rely on perma-stagnation to achieve policy goals.

    The Gini coefficient has been broadly flat since Fatcha trebled benefit dependency.

    https://twitter.com/dlknowles/status/354890013655330816/photo/1


    Back on the attack, because you can't actually answer the question.

    Ed's whole house of cards is built on saying nothing and keeping the pressure on the other side. But once "events" kick in and the pressure is back on Labour Ed's policy vacuum gets filled by events outside his control and the gaping holes in Labour's policy fabric become obvious.

    Ed's now got a problem. Crosby appears to be stopping the self inflicted grief, the economy is picking up and the better off are paying more. So what's Ed going to do ? It appears the government might not want to lose the next election after all and Ed's doing nothing to win it. Call it quits and let the LDs hold the blues to account, at least they get results without bankrupting the country.

    Really what is the point of Labour ? Care to give a reply ?

    Is there anything that anyone can write that will not produce a LOL from a Labour-hater such as yourself?

    If you ask me, the point of Labour is to strive to produce a society in which there is equality of opportunity, and to seek to do something about it when they are in power. Labour should also be a party built around internationalism and the idea that people and countries are stronger when they work together. If the reforms that EdM announced yesterday are seen through to conclusion (a big if) I think that Labour will be in a far better position to become this kind of party.

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405
    @tim and the debates bet.

    Because otherwise I really don't see that your supposition that Cam will try to avoid them has any merit whatsoever.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Kitty Donaldson @kitty_donaldson
    Ever wondered how many spies the UK has? In 2011/12 GCHQ employed 6,132 people, MI5 3,961 and MI6 3,200. Figures in today's ISC report
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    edited July 2013
    TOPPING said:


    Careful @tim you are upsetting our PB Tory moral compass - my enemy's enemy, etc...

    Seumas Milne is one of those characters that has the ability to unite the whole country in a mutual loathing for him.

    (Though you really shouldnt be surprised that tim cant stand him given tim's own brand of politics.)
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    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    As an LD, in the unlikely event that we're in a position to be part of another Government, I would have the continued rise in personal allowances as the absolute dealbreaker (it's certainly far more important than electoral reform).

    If we are entering some form of Osbornian golden economic age as Avery posits ad infinitum and ad nauseam, we should be aiming to raise the personal tax allowance threshold to £15k in the life of the next Parliament as well as raising the rate at which the 40% tax rate kicks in to perhaps £47,500 by 2020.

    These seem far more sensible policies than straight tax cuts which some seem to be advocating and which would disproportionately favour the minority of high earners rather than helping the majority of medium to low wage-earners.

    I'm surprised Labour aren't saying more about this.

    abolish uni fees and stop crippling the next generation
    Even if the LDs wanted to do it, I suspect neither the Labour nor the Conservative parties would. I agree the commitment to abolishing fees was a disastrous political error for which the Party will be paying for a long time to come.

    That said:

    http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/university-tuition-fees/repaying-your-student-loan/if-you-come-from-england/

    Given what we have, my immediate thoughts are that the income at which loans start to become repayable could be raised to perhaps £30k to give more people more time to start building up savings and I would also be looking at the interest rates charged on the loans and asking if these loans shouldn't really be interest-free. It's part of the investment we're making in the individual and the individual is making in themselves and thereby for the benefit of the whole economy.
    Do you also support taxpayer subsidised loans to people who do not choose to go to university?

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    So I expect that you would support the coalition policies that have reduced inequalities, and maintained international aid and obligations.

    It leaves Labour as the continuity coalition at the next election, though I expect that the Tories will run with a more right wing manifesto. So the political centre shifts rightwards.

    tim said:

    So now the labour "fairness" argument has gone.

    Once again, what is the point of Labour ?

    Osborne wanting credit for inequality falling after three years without growth is like the Spanish govt trumpeting a fall in net migration as a sign of success.
    It's not difficult, but you'd be an idiot to rely on perma-stagnation to achieve policy goals.

    The Gini coefficient has been broadly flat since Fatcha trebled benefit dependency.

    https://twitter.com/dlknowles/status/354890013655330816/photo/1


    Back on the attack, because you can't actually answer the question.

    Ed's whole house of cards is built on saying nothing and keeping the pressure on the other side. But once "events" kick in and the pressure is back on Labour Ed's policy vacuum gets filled by events outside his control and the gaping holes in Labour's policy fabric become obvious.

    Ed's now got a problem. Crosby appears to be stopping the self inflicted grief, the economy is picking up and the better off are paying more. So what's Ed going to do ? It appears the government might not want to lose the next election after all and Ed's doing nothing to win it. Call it quits and let the LDs hold the blues to account, at least they get results without bankrupting the country.

    Really what is the point of Labour ? Care to give a reply ?

    Is there anything that anyone can write that will not produce a LOL from a Labour-hater such as yourself?

    If you ask me, the point of Labour is to strive to produce a society in which there is equality of opportunity, and to seek to do something about it when they are in power. Labour should also be a party built around internationalism and the idea that people and countries are stronger when they work together. If the reforms that EdM announced yesterday are seen through to conclusion (a big if) I think that Labour will be in a far better position to become this kind of party.

  • Options
    anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    edited July 2013
    Sean_F said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Excellent to see the policy of raising personal allowances having the desired effect - taking the lowest paid out of tax and increasing their disposable income and thereby starting to erode income inequality.

    Something for Coalition supporters to be very happy about and plaudits to George Osborne for realising what a sensible and effective LD policy it was.

    On topic, it's difficult to fault OGH's logic and I've always thought that of the two mountains, the 21 seat hillside the Conservatives need to climb for their majority looked a tougher one than the 70 or so seat one Labour has to ascend.

    It's hard not to think that the vote share of the two main parties will be higher in 2015 than in 2010 and possibly back to around 75% so the battle is the same old battle in the same old seats which just goes to show nothing much changes in politics and we're back to ground organisations and marginal polling to give us some clues as to what might happen.

    I'd expect the Lib Dems to recover to 17/18% in 2015, UKIP to win 7% or so, and Others to win 5/6%.
    The LDs' poll numbers have been very steady since late 2010. Nothing seems to move them up or down.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#Graphical_summary
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    RT @dlknowles Also, all that stuff you hear about inequality soaring... Gini coefficients for the last thirty years: pic.twitter.com/4Ghu3KB7kB

    https://twitter.com/dlknowles/status/354890013655330816/photo/1
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Having lived and worked in York during the early days of PB having moving from Oxford I would back it.

    A great city but like many of the places that I have lived/work in lost its league football in recent times. Same with Oxford, Cambridge and Bedfordshire (Luton). Oxford United only returned after I'd left the city.





    JackW said:

    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    Should England eventually have a national assembly where would PBers like to see it located ?

    Perhaps one of the historic locations - York, Oxford or Winchester ??

    I'd want somewhere up North, so York seems like an attractive option. Just need a spur off the M1, and a bit of an extension of HS2! Would also be a nice coup for the Yorkists after their humiliating defeat in '85.
    York certainly appeals to my Jacobite sensibilities with the white rose/cockade.

    So York or Rutland it is !!
    LOL .... How about moving to Manchester then ?!?

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405
    tim said:

    TOPPING said:

    tim said:

    JohnO said:

    @tim - Perhaps he wanted to put me, a mere grammar school lad, at ease. After all, he's a gent.

    He's a c*nt.

    Careful @tim you are upsetting our PB Tory moral compass - my enemy's enemy, etc...

    now as to that leaders debate bet, how about this:

    a £10 bet at evens that Cameron will participate in the leaders' debates

    assumptions: if they don't happen you win, if there is any number of debates and he participates I win, if there is any number of debates with the leaders of LibDem and Lab and not Cameron you win, if there is a "special" debate with the leaders of any three (!) of LibDem, Labour, UKIP, SNP and not Cameron you win. Debates to be defined as debate format (eg. not if Clegg/EdM are both guests on Newsnight, etc).

    Three debates during the election campaign is my bottom line.
    Dave does three and you win.
    You're Ron
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,763
    edited July 2013

    tim said:

    So now the labour "fairness" argument has gone.

    Once again, what is the point of Labour ?

    Osborne wanting credit for inequality falling after three years without growth is like the Spanish govt trumpeting a fall in net migration as a sign of success.
    It's not difficult, but you'd be an idiot to rely on perma-stagnation to achieve policy goals.

    The Gini coefficient has been broadly flat since Fatcha trebled benefit dependency.

    https://twitter.com/dlknowles/status/354890013655330816/photo/1


    Back on the attack, because you can't actually answer the question.

    Ed's whole house of cards is built on saying nothing and keeping the pressure on the other side. But once "events" kick in and the pressure is back on Labour Ed's policy vacuum gets filled by events outside his control and the gaping holes in Labour's policy fabric become obvious.

    Ed's now got a problem. Crosby appears to be stopping the self inflicted grief, the economy is picking up and the better off are paying more. So what's Ed going to do ? It appears the government might not want to lose the next election after all and Ed's doing nothing to win it. Call it quits and let the LDs hold the blues to account, at least they get results without bankrupting the country.

    Really what is the point of Labour ? Care to give a reply ?

    Is there anything that anyone can write that will not produce a LOL from a Labour-hater such as yourself?

    If you ask me, the point of Labour is to strive to produce a society in which there is equality of opportunity, and to seek to do something about it when they are in power. Labour should also be a party built around internationalism and the idea that people and countries are stronger when they work together. If the reforms that EdM announced yesterday are seen through to conclusion (a big if) I think that Labour will be in a far better position to become this kind of party.

    I didn't put a LOL in that post SO - LOL

    As for your definition well at least you're prepared to give it a go which the party apparatchiks have chickened off doing. However what you say Labour stands for is showing your age. Little of what you propose resembles the modern Labour party. it might have been Labour fifty years ago, but today Labour is primarily a sectional interest group for the Public sector, middle class ideologues and minority pressure groups and is basing it's election plans around getting those people mobilised to vote for it. The principles of a modern forward looking party have long gone and aren't coming back. Porkbarrellissimo.

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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    "Ever wondered how many spies the UK has? In 2011/12 GCHQ employed 6,132 people, MI5 3,961 and MI6 3,200. Figures in today's ISC report"

    I think 'spies' might be a little overenthusiastic! I wonder how many would describe their job as as being in an true intelligence capacity. I'm sure these organisations must have cleaners and other support staff, PAs, HR people, and so on.
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    GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    On the inequality front, although it's an interesting stat from a campaign perspective, I can't help thinking that it's not particularly good news. If PBers recall the Simon Hughes/Margaret Thatcher exchange, then Thatcher's point really was that if the poorest's incomes fall, but the richest's fall proportionately more, that would not be a success and vice-versa. The overall figures show that is pretty much what has happened - although the fall for the poorest has been slight https://twitter.com/jamestplunkett/status/354886182477373441/photo/1
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    JohnO said:

    @tim - Just by chance, I can't recall how it happened, but I had supper with young Seumas (whom I knew slightly at college) in 1984 in Bournemouth the same evening following Kinnock's attack on Militant. I was gushing with enthusiasm at the speech - he was rather less impressed. Can't think why! Of course Hugh Gaitskell was also a Wykehamist.

    Bournemouth again !!

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    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited July 2013
    Plato said:

    There was a White Flight debate on here yesterday - this is pertinent

    Eric Kaufmann @epkaufm
    ONS LS: London white British working class leaving London at faster rate than professionals. Some indication of trend toward widening gap

    Ms Plato,

    Unfortunately the young Yorkshireman chose the wrong target. Mr and Mrs Billy Bragg hardly count as "white-flight"....
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,405
    tim said:

    TOPPING said:

    tim said:

    TOPPING said:

    tim said:

    JohnO said:

    @tim - Perhaps he wanted to put me, a mere grammar school lad, at ease. After all, he's a gent.

    He's a c*nt.

    Careful @tim you are upsetting our PB Tory moral compass - my enemy's enemy, etc...

    now as to that leaders debate bet, how about this:

    a £10 bet at evens that Cameron will participate in the leaders' debates

    assumptions: if they don't happen you win, if there is any number of debates and he participates I win, if there is any number of debates with the leaders of LibDem and Lab and not Cameron you win, if there is a "special" debate with the leaders of any three (!) of LibDem, Labour, UKIP, SNP and not Cameron you win. Debates to be defined as debate format (eg. not if Clegg/EdM are both guests on Newsnight, etc).

    Three debates during the election campaign is my bottom line.
    Dave does three and you win.
    You're Ron

    A tenner though, I might have to put that through the Charlesometer and generate a few dozen posts prevaricating.
    Yep - and no Scottish Mings or whatever they will be called by then.
  • Options
    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    JackW said:


    Bournemouth again !!

    There's something JohnO isnt telling us about his connection to Bournemouth, JackW!
This discussion has been closed.