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  • geoffw said:

    Off topic
    Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.
    It seems that the thorough report Dutch investigators managed to produce was partly with the assistance of the Finns who have Russian BUK missile launchers and which enabled them to be used to test hypotheses against the evidence found in Eastern Ukrainian fields. However the Finnish parliament was unaware of this until yesterday’s report in Dutch newspapers. The secrecy is creating a bit of a hoohah in Helsinki.

    Compelling videos from the joint investigation team:

    https://youtu.be/Sf6gJ8NDhYA

    also: http://www.ruutu.fi/video/2232494

    That's bloody thorough. Impressive. To be honest what happened was obvious the moment the separatists' social media accounts began to delete their own claims they'd shot down a plane, but it's good to see the kind of investigation that might - hopefully - one day stand up in court. Doubt it will shut the conspiracy theorists up though.
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Dear oh dear, tractor stats
  • jonny83 said:

    Repealing the trade union act would be insane, back to the 70's indeed.

    wildcat strikes all round!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited September 2016
    10 "MEGABTYE" broadcast....f##king idiot, not a clue what he is reading.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Porkies and fibs in abundance. He's using his old material. If not he might have noticed that rail subsidy now is lower than the old BR days, house building this year was the highest since the crash...
  • PClipp said:

    Spectacularly and laughably wrong, and a good indication of how commenting on other countries' politics is fraught with pitfalls.
    It is just conceivable that the Lib Dems might form the next government - the scenario runs something like 1981-2, where the Alliance was regularly polling 40%+ before they dropped off (pre-Falklands, contrary to myth) - but if so, it'll be despite their stance on Brexit, not because of it.

    Well, it certainly helps that the Labour Party has fragmented and it is hard to see how it can come back again into one piece.

    It also helps, in that the Conservatives have lost their USP as the party of business and commerce. How they ever thought they could turn their back on the European market and stability; and yet maintain their reputation for being business-friendly beats me. All their leaders seem to have gone bonkers.

    So if both Labour and the Tories are going down the drain, it is the Lib Dems who will have to step up to the plate. Mr Dean may be foreign, but he is not necessarily wrong.
    This is one of the big divisions between Con and LD. The EU has generally been good for big business but it hasn't been for small business, particularly since it took on the 'social Europe' project. There's a lot of world out there and being tied to the EU is for much of UK business a mixed blessing. One reason I was a Remainer was that i thought that the UK's influence was towards maintaining a more competitive, less regulated EU but we were always swimming against the tide and once we're outside the ability to set our own regulations will help business.

    I don't particularly see Brexit as damaging the Conservatives' reputation on being business-friendly or for economic competence, not least because the policy was forced on the government against the advice of the then-PM.

    But even if it were, Farron would have to play to the Con vote and that is something he is simply incapable of doing. In fact, he'd be better off taking a leaf out the SNP's book (which to be fair, he seems to be trying to do), and try to prove the Lib Dems to be more effective opposition to the Tories than Labour is. Problem is, starting with 8 MPs, it's difficult to credibly make that case.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    jonny83 said:

    Repealing the trade union act would be insane, back to the 70's indeed.

    wildcat strikes all round!
    Is he repealing the changes brought in by the government recently, or the entire legislation?
  • National Education Service....is this Trots Tots on steroids?
  • jonny83 said:

    Repealing the trade union act would be insane, back to the 70's indeed.

    wildcat strikes all round!
    ‏Flying pickets, burning oil drums and shouts of scab to those trying to work – very 1970/80s
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    TOPPING said:

    Is that really right about housebuilding? Pretty sure it's not.

    Where are Avery's yellow boxes? Can't be a***ed to look myself for that spreadsheet.

    Housebuilding now highest for seven years:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/housing-starts-and-completions-hit-7-year-high
  • nunu said:

    Time for the Howard Dean scream.

    https://youtu.be/l6i-gYRAwM0

    seriously that was the scream that ended for him? How petty.
    It was more the context that it came in response to a disappointing result in Iowa after having been the favourite shortly before.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Is that really right about housebuilding? Pretty sure it's not.

    Where are Avery's yellow boxes? Can't be a***ed to look myself for that spreadsheet.

    Housebuilding now highest for seven years:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/housing-starts-and-completions-hit-7-year-high
    Good stuff.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2016
    If it wasn't for the boundary changes I think Theresa May would probably call a snap election in either May 2017 or May 2018.
  • Spectacularly and laughably wrong, and a good indication of how commenting on other countries' politics is fraught with pitfalls.

    It is just conceivable that the Lib Dems might form the next government - the scenario runs something like 1981-2, where the Alliance was regularly polling 40%+ before they dropped off - but if so, it'll be despite their stance on Brexit, not because of it.

    So many impossible things have happened (Corbyn, Trump, Syriza, Tory majority, Brexit) that you can't rule anything out, but it does sound unlikely.
    If Brexit becomes unpopular, which it will if companies start closing UK operations, and the LibDems or a new LD/SDP Alliance gets to 40% at the appropriate time, then FPTP will deliver.
    Now, that would beat 50:1!

    But where Dean is utterly wrong is that the Lib Dems might win off the back of a 'No Brexit' campaign. Firstly, it won't be practically possible to stop it; once A50's invoked, that's it, the clock is ticking. And secondly, even if it were possible, the British public simply don't feel strongly enough about it in sufficient numbers for it to act as a vote switching prompt.
    I did say 'if Brexit becomes unpopular'. Time and 'events' will tell.
    Politics is the 'art of the possible'. If it's necessary to ditch Brexit or more likely fudge it, then it will be done (A50 or no A50).
    The timeline doesn't work though.

    The next GE is likely to be in 2020. In all probability, Brexit will be complete by then, so a 'No Brexit' policy makes no sense. A 'let's reapply for EU membership' would be possible and if Brexit is unpopular by then, might make sense, though I still harbour exterme reservations that it'd be an election-winning policy.

    Even if the election's earlier and Brexit is not complete, A50 will have been invoked. No matter what a new British government might want, the UK would then only be staying in the EU if all other 27 countries want it, and given the problems the UK's caused over the past four decades, I simply don't see how that happens.

    Politics is indeed the art of the possible, but 'No Brexit' isn't possible once A50's been invoked.
    A 'No Brexit' policy makes sense now. If there comes a time when it no longer makes sense, then it should be amended.
    If, and I admit it's a big 'if', Britain wanted to call off Brexit, I'm sure that Germany and France would be able to persuade reluctant others to go along with it.
  • Back to good businesses vs evil businesses....
  • Corbyn really needs to learn cadence
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    So in summary:

    Tax and investment spend
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    notme said:

    jonny83 said:

    Repealing the trade union act would be insane, back to the 70's indeed.

    wildcat strikes all round!
    Is he repealing the changes brought in by the government recently, or the entire legislation?
    I took it to mean the whole act, unless he says something mor specific. Not sure the union barons which bankroll the party will accept them only repealing part of it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Is that really right about housebuilding? Pretty sure it's not.

    Where are Avery's yellow boxes? Can't be a***ed to look myself for that spreadsheet.

    Housebuilding now highest for seven years:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/housing-starts-and-completions-hit-7-year-high
    indeed.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    "More apple pie, less s**t sandwiches"

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "The man in charge of maintaining Buckingham Palace has been jailed for five years after he accepted more than £100,000 in bribes.
    Ronald Harper, 64, from Suffolk, took payments or gifts from companies who were then given large contracts.
    He was also responsible for St James's Palace, Clarence House and Windsor Castle from 1994 until he was suspended in 2012."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37497808
  • £160 million spending on school arts...poems, songs and paintings of the great leader?
  • My Grandson age 4 can name all the dinosaurs. He needs to add the name of 'Corbyn' to his list
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,740
    edited September 2016
    2020 GE Conservative playbook attack on Labour will be:

    NATO
    Trident
    Strike action
    Secondary pickets
    Unlimited immigration
    Unlimited welfare
    Higher Taxes
    Debt
    Waste

    Plus, to cap it all off - Corbyn will get challenged on the Monarchy.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    AndyJS said:

    "The man in charge of maintaining Buckingham Palace has been jailed for five years after he accepted more than £100,000 in bribes.
    Ronald Harper, 64, from Suffolk, took payments or gifts from companies who were then given large contracts.
    He was also responsible for St James's Palace, Clarence House and Windsor Castle from 1994 until he was suspended in 2012."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37497808

    Anyone watching ITV's "Victoria" would not be surprised.
  • Mr. L, has Corbyn said anything about the monarchy?

    Mr. Urquhart, will Chairman Corbyn be flinging any largesse towards self-employed writers? :p
  • MikeL said:

    2020 GE Conservative playbook attack on Labour will be:

    NATO
    Trident
    Strike action
    Secondary pickets
    Unlimited immigration
    Unlimited welfare
    Higher Taxes
    Debt
    Waste

    Plus, to cap it all off - Corbyn will get challenged on the Monarchy.

    And the IRA too.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,740
    Lab: No test before you get Incapacity Benefit.
  • IanB2 said:

    Spectacularly and laughably wrong, and a good indication of how commenting on other countries' politics is fraught with pitfalls.

    It is just conceivable that the Lib Dems might form the next government - the scenario runs something like 1981-2, where the Alliance was regularly polling 40%+ before they dropped off (pre-Falklands, contrary to myth) - but if so, it'll be despite their stance on Brexit, not because of it.

    So many impossible things have happened (Corbyn, Trump, Syriza, Tory majority, Brexit) that you can't rule anything out, but it does sound unlikely.
    If Brexit becomes unpopular, which it will if companies start closing UK operations, and the LibDems or a new LD/SDP Alliance gets to 40% at the appropriate time, then FPTP will deliver.
    Now, that would beat 50:1!
    As I said earlier, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility of a LD govt simply because of Labour's current problems. If the Lib Dems can capture the sensible left and ally it to a discontented centre-right then they have an election winning coalition. FWIW, I don't think Farron would be capable of either, and wouldn't even want to try to appeal to the centre-right.

    As things stand now, Lab+LD is routinely less than Con. In other words, the Lib Dems (or Labour) can only win by gaining votes back from Con and UKIP (and perhaps SNP), or from former non-voters, but that really is wishful thinking.

    But where Dean is utterly wrong is that the Lib Dems might win off the back of a 'No Brexit' campaign. Firstly, it won't be practically possible to stop it; once A50's invoked, that's it, the clock is ticking. And secondly, even if it were possible, the British public simply don't feel strongly enough about it in sufficient numbers for it to act as a vote switching prompt.
    That latter sentence breaks down in the scenario envisaged, of a seriously deteriorating economy due to the Brexit process.
    'Latter' = final?

    if so, I don't think it does. Partly that's because there's a large chunk of the public who think that the pain is worth it but more, it's because there's no reverse. if Britain did want back in then it'd be with Schengen and the Euro, which is a very different prospect from the deal we rejected in June.

    Besides, the evidence is that the economy doesn't seem to be much affected by the vote so far.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Conservatives fault for not building enough homes to cope with every migrant that wants to come to the Uk.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,334
    MikeL said:

    Lab: No test before you get Incapacity Benefit.

    I thought Blairism was not in favour?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited September 2016
    Corbyn's speech would be shorter if he simply listed everything they weren't going to spend more money on.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited September 2016
    I can see this bit of the speech going down well in places like Stoke and Sunderland.....NOT.
  • MikeL said:

    2020 GE Conservative playbook attack on Labour will be:

    NATO
    Trident
    Strike action
    Secondary pickets
    Unlimited immigration
    Unlimited welfare
    Higher Taxes
    Debt
    Waste

    Plus, to cap it all off - Corbyn will get challenged on the Monarchy.

    Terrorist mates
    Anti Semitism
    Misogyny
    MPs no confidence
    Won't sing national anthem
    Blah
    blah
    blah
    etc

    The monstering of Redward will be as nothing....
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    I did say 'if Brexit becomes unpopular'. Time and 'events' will tell. Politics is the 'art of the possible'. If it's necessary to ditch Brexit or more likely fudge it, then it will be done (A50 or no A50).

    The timeline doesn't work though.
    The next GE is likely to be in 2020. In all probability, Brexit will be complete by then, so a 'No Brexit' policy makes no sense. A 'let's reapply for EU membership' would be possible and if Brexit is unpopular by then, might make sense, though I still harbour exterme reservations that it'd be an election-winning policy.
    Even if the election's earlier and Brexit is not complete, A50 will have been invoked. No matter what a new British government might want, the UK would then only be staying in the EU if all other 27 countries want it, and given the problems the UK's caused over the past four decades, I simply don't see how that happens.
    Politics is indeed the art of the possible, but 'No Brexit' isn't possible once A50's been invoked.
    Getting ahead of yourself a bit, I fear, Mr Herdson. There is an election for a Westminster seat next month. What would the May government do if they lost it? (Apart from panic of course).

    Betting on the result shows the Lib Dems are clearly the challengers in Witney. So far, the campaign seems to be going very well for them. (Only what I read - no inside knowledge)

    If you were a wealthy businessman who wanted Mrs May to stop dithering and to start cherishing the business interest again, what would you do? Make her halt in her tracks, by making sure that there is a Lib Dem gain in Witney. It will be very interesting to see how many large donations come flooding into the Lib Dem coffers.

    That would certainly be in the best interests of the business community.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,740
    edited September 2016

    Mr. L, has Corbyn said anything about the monarchy?

    Yep:

    When challenged he said "I am not campaigning on the Monarchy"

    He very noticeably did not support it.

    He'll get challenged on it in a GE campaign - and if he doesn't give crystal clear support he'll get slaughtered.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    edited September 2016

    Even if the election's earlier and Brexit is not complete, A50 will have been invoked. No matter what a new British government might want, the UK would then only be staying in the EU if all other 27 countries want it, and given the problems the UK's caused over the past four decades, I simply don't see how that happens.

    If we're talking about revoking an article 50 notification and saying forget the whole thing, the hurdle is probably more like 27 countries exasperatedly going along with it, rather than actively wanting it. Exasperatedly going along with things for the sake of a quiet life is pretty much the EU's core competency.

    Failing that it's not obvious that if somebody sued to force Britain out they'd win their case, but it's hard to see anybody bringing the case in the first place.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    We welcome migrants...and then will charge them more to become UK citizens.

    Nice touch, Jezza.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654

    Corbyn's speech would be shorter if he simply listed everything they weren't going to spend more money on.

    There is a saving on nuclear weapon infrastructure.
  • FiveThirtyEight taking the mick out of the Voodoo polls

    natesilver (Nate Silver, editor in chief): Did you see the Drudge poll? Trump won 80-20.

    micah: I don’t trust the Drudge poll; I always go to the Patch poll first.

    clare.malone (Clare Malone, senior political writer): I like to ask my cab drivers what they thought.

    natesilver: I’m a big fan of the Pravda.ru poll, but it’s a little Trump-leaning. The raw numbers were 99-1 Trump, but our model adjusts it to 97-3.
  • Mr. L, cheers.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    MikeL said:

    Lab: No test before you get Incapacity Benefit.

    oh good so everyone plus their dog can get it.
  • SandraMSandraM Posts: 206
    Anything about 2nd homes? I know several Corbynistas who own 2nd homes.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Corbyn's speech would be shorter if he simply listed everything they weren't going to spend more money on.

    There is a saving on nuclear weapon infrastructure.
    No, I think they'll need the infrastructure spending to support the empty submarines.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    Lol at the this party campaigned hard to remain in the Uk. Maybe your party did Jezza but you sure didn't.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654

    My Grandson age 4 can name all the dinosaurs. He needs to add the name of 'Corbyn' to his list

    Bloody hell.

    All of them ?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    ah there is in a nutshell a key plank of why Jezza was a Leaver.

    Freedom to renationalise and subsidise our struggling industries.
  • If Corbyn wins, will the last one out of the country in 2020 please remember to turn off the lights....
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    In the
    jonny83 said:

    Lol at the this party campaigned hard to remain in the Uk. Maybe your party did Jezza but you sure didn't.

    In the EU*
  • Pulpstar said:

    My Grandson age 4 can name all the dinosaurs. He needs to add the name of 'Corbyn' to his list

    Bloody hell.

    All of them ?
    Pretty much
  • @PClipp can we look forward to as good a performance from the Lib Dems in Witney as they managed in Oldham West & Royton, when you were last enthusiastically talking up their chances?
  • Pulpstar said:

    My Grandson age 4 can name all the dinosaurs. He needs to add the name of 'Corbyn' to his list

    Bloody hell.

    All of them ?
    Joe Gormley, Jack Jones, Red Robbo, Arthur Scargill. Who have I missed?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Just a bizarre ramble of virtue signalling.

  • Pulpstar said:

    My Grandson age 4 can name all the dinosaurs. He needs to add the name of 'Corbyn' to his list

    Bloody hell.

    All of them ?
    Joe Gormley, Jack Jones, Red Robbo, Arthur Scargill. Who have I missed?
    Derek Hatton...
  • Did he just say ban on ALL foreign arms sales?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654

    Pulpstar said:

    Corbyn's speech would be shorter if he simply listed everything they weren't going to spend more money on.

    There is a saving on nuclear weapon infrastructure.
    No, I think they'll need the infrastructure spending to support the empty submarines.
    Yep and thats the problem with Corbyn. He's so wet around the ears (And in hoc to the unions) he can't even do an anti-nuclear platform properly.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,112
    TGOHF said:

    Just a bizarre ramble of virtue signalling.

    A bizarre expensive ramble...
  • PClipp said:

    I did say 'if Brexit becomes unpopular'. Time and 'events' will tell. Politics is the 'art of the possible'. If it's necessary to ditch Brexit or more likely fudge it, then it will be done (A50 or no A50).

    The timeline doesn't work though.
    The next GE is likely to be in 2020. In all probability, Brexit will be complete by then, so a 'No Brexit' policy makes no sense. A 'let's reapply for EU membership' would be possible and if Brexit is unpopular by then, might make sense, though I still harbour exterme reservations that it'd be an election-winning policy.
    Even if the election's earlier and Brexit is not complete, A50 will have been invoked. No matter what a new British government might want, the UK would then only be staying in the EU if all other 27 countries want it, and given the problems the UK's caused over the past four decades, I simply don't see how that happens.
    Politics is indeed the art of the possible, but 'No Brexit' isn't possible once A50's been invoked.
    Getting ahead of yourself a bit, I fear, Mr Herdson. There is an election for a Westminster seat next month. What would the May government do if they lost it? (Apart from panic of course).

    Betting on the result shows the Lib Dems are clearly the challengers in Witney. So far, the campaign seems to be going very well for them. (Only what I read - no inside knowledge)

    If you were a wealthy businessman who wanted Mrs May to stop dithering and to start cherishing the business interest again, what would you do? Make her halt in her tracks, by making sure that there is a Lib Dem gain in Witney. It will be very interesting to see how many large donations come flooding into the Lib Dem coffers.

    That would certainly be in the best interests of the business community.
    Except "the business community" doesn't all support Remain. Certainly post-referendum.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    TOPPING said:

    ah there is in a nutshell a key plank of why Jezza was a Leaver.

    Freedom to renationalise and subsidise our struggling industries.

    that was my fear on leaving.... I believe membership of the single market however is equally restraining...
  • Ah the good old ethical foreign policy. That didn't last long first time around.
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270

    Did he just say ban on ALL foreign arms sales?

    Our economy doesn't need those billions from sales. Money tree will cover that.
  • TGOHF said:

    Just a bizarre ramble of virtue signalling.

    ‏Not just any old virtue signalling – very expensive virtue signalling….!
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,740
    Corbyn congratulating Lab in Scotland!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited September 2016
    I am not sure who makes less sense, Donald Trump or Jeremy Corbyn....They both seem to have a similar bonkers message.
  • The 'socialism of the twenty-first century' sounds very similar to the socialism of the mid twentieth-century.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''that was my fear on leaving.... I believe membership of the single market however is equally restraining... ''

    The single most powerful reason I could think of for staying in Europe is that is would act as a bulwark against a Venezuela type situation happening in the UK.
  • Labour preparing for GE2017.....
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    @PClipp can we look forward to as good a performance from the Lib Dems in Witney as they managed in Oldham West & Royton, when you were last enthusiastically talking up their chances?

    No idea, Mr Meeks. Just speculating on what might happen, like everybody else here...

    Of course the Lib Dems ought to have won Oldham West, but that was in the early months of the last Parliament, when they were starting to be contaminated by the toxic Tories.

    Did I really comment here on that byelection? That was six years ago. I had not realised I had been here that long. Time flies.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 73,016

    National Education Service....is this Trots Tots on steroids?

    Ye gods. Education is far too statist already.

    Clearly an attempt to invoke the NHS brand, but disturbing nonetheless.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited September 2016
    Well the word cloud for Jezzas speech is simple...SOCIALISM...
  • PClipp said:

    I did say 'if Brexit becomes unpopular'. Time and 'events' will tell. Politics is the 'art of the possible'. If it's necessary to ditch Brexit or more likely fudge it, then it will be done (A50 or no A50).

    The timeline doesn't work though.
    The next GE is likely to be in 2020. In all probability, Brexit will be complete by then, so a 'No Brexit' policy makes no sense. A 'let's reapply for EU membership' would be possible and if Brexit is unpopular by then, might make sense, though I still harbour exterme reservations that it'd be an election-winning policy.
    Even if the election's earlier and Brexit is not complete, A50 will have been invoked. No matter what a new British government might want, the UK would then only be staying in the EU if all other 27 countries want it, and given the problems the UK's caused over the past four decades, I simply don't see how that happens.
    Politics is indeed the art of the possible, but 'No Brexit' isn't possible once A50's been invoked.
    Getting ahead of yourself a bit, I fear, Mr Herdson. There is an election for a Westminster seat next month. What would the May government do if they lost it? (Apart from panic of course).

    Betting on the result shows the Lib Dems are clearly the challengers in Witney. So far, the campaign seems to be going very well for them. (Only what I read - no inside knowledge)

    If you were a wealthy businessman who wanted Mrs May to stop dithering and to start cherishing the business interest again, what would you do? Make her halt in her tracks, by making sure that there is a Lib Dem gain in Witney. It will be very interesting to see how many large donations come flooding into the Lib Dem coffers.

    That would certainly be in the best interests of the business community.
    There are two by-elections, actually, and the Lib Dems won't win either (admittedly, they're not standing in one but that won't make much difference to the votes they'd have won there).

    The Lib Dems might well regain second in Witney off the back of labour's national showing; they won't do better. It's over 10½ years since the Lib Dems last gained a seat at a Westminster by-election and the lean spell has some way to go yet.
  • I keep thinking he's finished and then he says a bit more.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited September 2016
    Nigelb said:

    National Education Service....is this Trots Tots on steroids?

    Ye gods. Education is far too statist already.

    Clearly an attempt to invoke the NHS brand, but disturbing nonetheless.
    If memory serves a National Education Service was the subject of a Yes Prime Minister episode. Sir Humphrey did not approve.

    Edited Extra bit. My old memory did not fail me, it was the topic of an episode: Series 2 Episode 7 and here it is

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t6wN4Aew-s
  • Thank god he has finally shut up.
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,095
    PClipp said:

    I did say 'if Brexit becomes unpopular'. Time and 'events' will tell. Politics is the 'art of the possible'. If it's necessary to ditch Brexit or more likely fudge it, then it will be done (A50 or no A50).

    The timeline doesn't work though.
    The next GE is likely to be in 2020. In all probability, Brexit will be complete by then, so a 'No Brexit' policy makes no sense. A 'let's reapply for EU membership' would be possible and if Brexit is unpopular by then, might make sense, though I still harbour exterme reservations that it'd be an election-winning policy.
    Even if the election's earlier and Brexit is not complete, A50 will have been invoked. No matter what a new British government might want, the UK would then only be staying in the EU if all other 27 countries want it, and given the problems the UK's caused over the past four decades, I simply don't see how that happens.
    Politics is indeed the art of the possible, but 'No Brexit' isn't possible once A50's been invoked.
    Getting ahead of yourself a bit, I fear, Mr Herdson. There is an election for a Westminster seat next month. What would the May government do if they lost it? (Apart from panic of course).

    Betting on the result shows the Lib Dems are clearly the challengers in Witney. So far, the campaign seems to be going very well for them. (Only what I read - no inside knowledge)

    If you were a wealthy businessman who wanted Mrs May to stop dithering and to start cherishing the business interest again, what would you do? Make her halt in her tracks, by making sure that there is a Lib Dem gain in Witney. It will be very interesting to see how many large donations come flooding into the Lib Dem coffers.

    That would certainly be in the best interests of the business community.
    One donor has promised to match all the other donations to the campaign - that could prove expensive!
  • PClipp said:

    @PClipp can we look forward to as good a performance from the Lib Dems in Witney as they managed in Oldham West & Royton, when you were last enthusiastically talking up their chances?

    No idea, Mr Meeks. Just speculating on what might happen, like everybody else here...

    Of course the Lib Dems ought to have won Oldham West, but that was in the early months of the last Parliament, when they were starting to be contaminated by the toxic Tories.

    Did I really comment here on that byelection? That was six years ago. I had not realised I had been here that long. Time flies.
    Oldham West & Royton was the by election last year.
  • If Corbyn wins, will the last one out of the country in 2020 please remember to turn off the lights....

    No need. Power shortages will do that.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,740
    Norman Smith:

    Missed opportunity
    No message to broader country
    Internally focussed
    Comfort blanket
    Policies his party loves
  • sladeslade Posts: 2,095
    PClipp said:

    @PClipp can we look forward to as good a performance from the Lib Dems in Witney as they managed in Oldham West & Royton, when you were last enthusiastically talking up their chances?

    No idea, Mr Meeks. Just speculating on what might happen, like everybody else here...

    Of course the Lib Dems ought to have won Oldham West, but that was in the early months of the last Parliament, when they were starting to be contaminated by the toxic Tories.

    Did I really comment here on that byelection? That was six years ago. I had not realised I had been here that long. Time flies.
    I think you mean Oldham East and Saddleworth.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    @PClipp can we look forward to as good a performance from the Lib Dems in Witney as they managed in Oldham West & Royton, when you were last enthusiastically talking up their chances?

    No idea, Mr Meeks. I was merely speculating, as everybody here is accustomed to do.

    Obviously, the Lib Dems ought to have won Oldham West. But that was at the beginning of the last Government, when Tory toxicity was just beginning to take hold. Things are different now.

    Did I actually comment on the Oldham West byelection? That was six years ago now. I had not thought I had been posting on here that long. How time flies!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,894

    PClipp said:

    Spectacularly and laughably wrong, and a good indication of how commenting on other countries' politics is fraught with pitfalls.
    It is just conceivable that the Lib Dems might form the next government - the scenario runs something like 1981-2, where the Alliance was regularly polling 40%+ before they dropped off (pre-Falklands, contrary to myth) - but if so, it'll be despite their stance on Brexit, not because of it.

    Well, it certainly helps that the Labour Party has fragmented and it is hard to see how it can come back again into one piece.

    It also helps, in that the Conservatives have lost their USP as the party of business and commerce. How they ever thought they could turn their back on the European market and stability; and yet maintain their reputation for being business-friendly beats me. All their leaders seem to have gone bonkers.

    So if both Labour and the Tories are going down the drain, it is the Lib Dems who will have to step up to the plate. Mr Dean may be foreign, but he is not necessarily wrong.
    This is one of the big divisions between Con and LD. The EU has generally been good for big business but it hasn't been for small business, particularly since it took on the 'social Europe' project. There's a lot of world out there and being tied to the EU is for much of UK business a mixed blessing. One reason I was a Remainer was that i thought that the UK's influence was towards maintaining a more competitive, less regulated EU but we were always swimming against the tide and once we're outside the ability to set our own regulations will help business.

    I don't particularly see Brexit as damaging the Conservatives' reputation on being business-friendly or for economic competence, not least because the policy was forced on the government against the advice of the then-PM.

    But even if it were, Farron would have to play to the Con vote and that is something he is simply incapable of doing. In fact, he'd be better off taking a leaf out the SNP's book (which to be fair, he seems to be trying to do), and try to prove the Lib Dems to be more effective opposition to the Tories than Labour is. Problem is, starting with 8 MPs, it's difficult to credibly make that case.
    The SNP started from a lower base than 8. In Britian as a whole anyway.
  • MikeL said:

    Norman Smith:

    Missed opportunity
    No message to broader country
    Internally focussed
    Comfort blanket
    Policies his party loves

    You know it was shit when Red Norman thinks it was bollocks.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    taffys said:

    ''that was my fear on leaving.... I believe membership of the single market however is equally restraining... ''

    The single most powerful reason I could think of for staying in Europe is that is would act as a bulwark against a Venezuela type situation happening in the UK.

    That and the environmental restrictions they force us to impose, largely against our will.. Corbyn and the far left no damn well the restriction the EU and single market impose on them, which is why he is glad to be rid, and their proposals are to not be members of the Single Market.

    I cant understand Tories who are instinctively hostile to the Single Market. It is a neo liberal wet dream. It has liberalised the continent in a way i doubt even national heads of government would have been able to manage.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,740
    Norman Smith:

    How does stopping arms sales and peace in Columbia affect the ordinary person at home?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654

    PClipp said:

    Spectacularly and laughably wrong, and a good indication of how commenting on other countries' politics is fraught with pitfalls.
    It is just conceivable that the Lib Dems might form the next government - the scenario runs something like 1981-2, where the Alliance was regularly polling 40%+ before they dropped off (pre-Falklands, contrary to myth) - but if so, it'll be despite their stance on Brexit, not because of it.

    Well, it certainly helps that the Labour Party has fragmented and it is hard to see how it can come back again into one piece.

    It also helps, in that the Conservatives have lost their USP as the party of business and commerce. How they ever thought they could turn their back on the European market and stability; and yet maintain their reputation for being business-friendly beats me. All their leaders seem to have gone bonkers.

    So if both Labour and the Tories are going down the drain, it is the Lib Dems who will have to step up to the plate. Mr Dean may be foreign, but he is not necessarily wrong.
    This is one of the big divisions between Con and LD. The EU has generally been good for big business but it hasn't been for small business, particularly since it took on the 'social Europe' project. There's a lot of world out there and being tied to the EU is for much of UK business a mixed blessing. One reason I was a Remainer was that i thought that the UK's influence was towards maintaining a more competitive, less regulated EU but we were always swimming against the tide and once we're outside the ability to set our own regulations will help business.

    I don't particularly see Brexit as damaging the Conservatives' reputation on being business-friendly or for economic competence, not least because the policy was forced on the government against the advice of the then-PM.

    But even if it were, Farron would have to play to the Con vote and that is something he is simply incapable of doing. In fact, he'd be better off taking a leaf out the SNP's book (which to be fair, he seems to be trying to do), and try to prove the Lib Dems to be more effective opposition to the Tories than Labour is. Problem is, starting with 8 MPs, it's difficult to credibly make that case.
    The SNP started from a lower base than 8. In Britian as a whole anyway.
    They're at about 4.5 now.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    TGOHF said:

    AndyJS said:

    "The man in charge of maintaining Buckingham Palace has been jailed for five years after he accepted more than £100,000 in bribes.
    Ronald Harper, 64, from Suffolk, took payments or gifts from companies who were then given large contracts.
    He was also responsible for St James's Palace, Clarence House and Windsor Castle from 1994 until he was suspended in 2012."


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37497808

    Anyone watching ITV's "Victoria" would not be surprised.
    I am astounded at his moderation. I read somewhere the routine upkeep of Chatsworth is £1m a year. If he is turning over that sort of money "more than £100,000 in bribes" looks pretty small beer.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,045
    edited September 2016
    Better delivery from Corbyn. He's set bar so low this was definitely his best speech yet.

    Not sure how Labour are meant to appeal to marginals though.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,755
    A poem for Jeremy:-

    Green with lust and sick with shyness,
    Let me kiss your lovely toes.
    Let me praise your mighty greatness
    Stick your finger up my nose
    Only you can make me happy.
    Tuck me tight beneath your arm.
    Wrap me in a woollen nappy;
    Let me wet it till it's warm.
    In a plush and plated pram
    Wheel me all around West Ham.
    Let your sleek and soft galoshes
    Slide and slither on my skin.
    Swaddle me in mackintoshes
    Till I lose my sense of sin.
    Lightly plant your plimsolled heel
    Where my privy parts congeal.
  • Owen Jones loves Jeremy's speech. – I really can’t keep up with his love/hate Corbyn thing...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,654
    PClipp said:

    @PClipp can we look forward to as good a performance from the Lib Dems in Witney as they managed in Oldham West & Royton, when you were last enthusiastically talking up their chances?

    No idea, Mr Meeks. I was merely speculating, as everybody here is accustomed to do.

    Obviously, the Lib Dems ought to have won Oldham West. But that was at the beginning of the last Government, when Tory toxicity was just beginning to take hold. Things are different now.

    Did I actually comment on the Oldham West byelection? That was six years ago now. I had not thought I had been posting on here that long. How time flies!
    It was last year.
  • Mr. Urquhart, are you suggesting Smith might throw himself off Wigan pier?

    King Cole, Farron is neither Salmond nor Sturgeon, nor does he have such a simple/popular idea to sell. "Let's ignore your decision" isn't a tantalising prospect when seeking votes.

    That said, the Lib Dems will benefit simply by virtue of being leftwing and not as demented as Labour. It'd be a shock if they didn't gain seats.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited September 2016
    PClipp said:

    @PClipp can we look forward to as good a performance from the Lib Dems in Witney as they managed in Oldham West & Royton, when you were last enthusiastically talking up their chances?

    No idea, Mr Meeks. Just speculating on what might happen, like everybody else here... Of course the Lib Dems ought to have won Oldham West, but that was in the early months of the last Parliament, when they were starting to be contaminated by the toxic Tories.
    Did I really comment here on that byelection? That was six years ago. I had not realised I had been here that long. Time flies.
    It is now 10 years since the Lib Dems gained a seat through a by election for the HoC. Feb 2006 Dunfermline and West Fife.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,894

    PClipp said:

    I did say 'if Brexit becomes unpopular'. Time and 'events' will tell. Politics is the 'art of the possible'. If it's necessary to ditch Brexit or more likely fudge it, then it will be done (A50 or no A50).

    The timeline doesn't work though.
    The next GE is likely to be in 2020. In all probability, Brexit will be complete by then, so a 'No Brexit' policy makes no sense. A 'let's reapply for EU membership' would be possible and if Brexit is unpopular by then, might make sense, though I still harbour exterme reservations that it'd be an election-winning policy.
    Even if the election's earlier and Brexit is not complete, A50 will have been invoked. No matter what a new British government might want, the UK would then only be staying in the EU if all other 27 countries want it, and given the problems the UK's caused over the past four decades, I simply don't see how that happens.
    Politics is indeed the art of the possible, but 'No Brexit' isn't possible once A50's been invoked.
    Getting ahead of yourself a bit, I fear, Mr Herdson. There is an election for a Westminster seat next month. What would the May government do if they lost it? (Apart from panic of course).

    Betting on the result shows the Lib Dems are clearly the challengers in Witney. So far, the campaign seems to be going very well for them. (Only what I read - no inside knowledge)

    If you were a wealthy businessman who wanted Mrs May to stop dithering and to start cherishing the business interest again, what would you do? Make her halt in her tracks, by making sure that there is a Lib Dem gain in Witney. It will be very interesting to see how many large donations come flooding into the Lib Dem coffers.

    That would certainly be in the best interests of the business community.
    There are two by-elections, actually, and the Lib Dems won't win either (admittedly, they're not standing in one but that won't make much difference to the votes they'd have won there).

    The Lib Dems might well regain second in Witney off the back of labour's national showing; they won't do better. It's over 10½ years since the Lib Dems last gained a seat at a Westminster by-election and the lean spell has some way to go yet.
    Do the LD’s actually have win in Witney? A close second there..... recount levels perhaps ...... would put the fear of God into the Tories. Or would there just be a sigh of relief.
  • PClipp said:

    I did say 'if Brexit becomes unpopular'. Time and 'events' will tell. Politics is the 'art of the possible'. If it's necessary to ditch Brexit or more likely fudge it, then it will be done (A50 or no A50).

    The timeline doesn't work though.
    The next GE is likely to be in 2020. In all probability, Brexit will be complete by then, so a 'No Brexit' policy makes no sense. A 'let's reapply for EU membership' would be possible and if Brexit is unpopular by then, might make sense, though I still harbour exterme reservations that it'd be an election-winning policy.
    Even if the election's earlier and Brexit is not complete, A50 will have been invoked. No matter what a new British government might want, the UK would then only be staying in the EU if all other 27 countries want it, and given the problems the UK's caused over the past four decades, I simply don't see how that happens.
    Politics is indeed the art of the possible, but 'No Brexit' isn't possible once A50's been invoked.
    Getting ahead of yourself a bit, I fear, Mr Herdson. There is an election for a Westminster seat next month. What would the May government do if they lost it? (Apart from panic of course).

    Betting on the result shows the Lib Dems are clearly the challengers in Witney. So far, the campaign seems to be going very well for them. (Only what I read - no inside knowledge)

    If you were a wealthy businessman who wanted Mrs May to stop dithering and to start cherishing the business interest again, what would you do? Make her halt in her tracks, by making sure that there is a Lib Dem gain in Witney. It will be very interesting to see how many large donations come flooding into the Lib Dem coffers.

    That would certainly be in the best interests of the business community.
    There are two by-elections, actually, and the Lib Dems won't win either (admittedly, they're not standing in one but that won't make much difference to the votes they'd have won there).

    The Lib Dems might well regain second in Witney off the back of labour's national showing; they won't do better. It's over 10½ years since the Lib Dems last gained a seat at a Westminster by-election and the lean spell has some way to go yet.
    Do the LD’s actually have win in Witney? A close second there..... recount levels perhaps ...... would put the fear of God into the Tories. Or would there just be a sigh of relief.
    Yes the Lib Dems need to hold Witney.

    Witney has had a Lib Dem MP since 2001 according to some*

    *The terminally stupid.
  • Mr. Urquhart, are you suggesting Smith might throw himself off Wigan pier?
    King Cole, Farron is neither Salmond nor Sturgeon, nor does he have such a simple/popular idea to sell. "Let's ignore your decision" isn't a tantalising prospect when seeking votes.
    That said, the Lib Dems will benefit simply by virtue of being leftwing and not as demented as Labour. It'd be a shock if they didn't gain seats.

    For the Lib Dems gaining a seat from a parliamentary by election is becoming, if not now then when?
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270
    No olive branches, this division is just going to rumble on and on. I guess from his perspective why would he reflect on what's happened the past year, he has won and he damn well knows it.

    He wont face anymore leadership challenges, the party has been taken over and with the rules in place Corbyn will only go when he chooses to. A hammering in 2020 will probably still keep him in post. It's a movement to him, in his view getting his party back to where he thinks it belongs, he doesn't really care about power.

    I have no love whatsoever for Labour but I do value and believe in a strong opposition to keep governments on their toes and in check. Otherwise you get complacency and stupid policies with nobody to challenge them. On no level whatsoever does Corbyns labour provide a credible alternative.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,740
    edited September 2016
    Labour delegates arguing with each other on BBC2.

    Andrew Neil: "Not in spirit of unity there"
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,554
    edited September 2016
    Bust up live on BBC2....FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT....
This discussion has been closed.