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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » First post-grammar school phone poll sees TMay’s ratings sl

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  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    glw said:

    HYUFD said:

    In a last clutching of straws by Remainers, Rosamund Urwin suggests that if a second EU referendum could be held in 2020 Remain could win because of younger voters voting for the first time and Leave voters dying off
    http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/rosamund-urwin-brexit-limbo-is-a-further-insult-to-britain-s-youth-a3345806.html

    If that worked we would have perpetual Labour governments.
    It took us 40 years to get the travesty of 1975 reversed - the Remainers are just going to have to live with it for another 40 years before they get their second chance.

    And since the status quo tends to win the day they will be at a significant disadvantage.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    West Wing Reports
    President has only done a few campaign events for Clinton - none in key swing states like FLA, OH. WWR asked @presssec why? "Stay tuned"
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods but it certainly can impose tariffs that apply elsewhere - and if they refuse to sign a deal with us but everyone else does (which if we join TPP and get a deal with India and China will cover the vast majority of non-EU world trade) then it would effectively be possible to discriminate since they will be the worst case Most Favoured Nation then.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    Then the lies told by the dishonest leave campaign will really come home to roost. Brexit will put us in the vanguard of the new wave of protectionism while the EU will be the only notable stable example of a free trade area.
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Anatole Kaletsky said the same thing last night. He thinks May's Government could fall c.2018-2019 on that basis.
    Is there a man more consistently wrong than Anatole?
    Whoever commissions his columns must be in the running.
  • Options
    rpjs said:

    Ishmael_X said:

    HYUFD said:

    If Trump and Le Pen won the EU and NAFTA and probably NATO and the WTO would collapse, so no not much change in international relations there then!

    That raises a question: does a US president actually have the power to withdraw the US from international treaties without congressional approval?
    Terminating Treaties
    The Constitution is silent about how treaties might be terminated. The breaking off of two treaties during the Jimmy Carter administration stirred controversy. In 1978 the president terminated the U.S. defense treaty with Taiwan in order to facilitate the establishment of diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China. Also in 1978 the new Panama Canal treaties replaced three previous treaties with Panama. In one case, the president acted unilaterally; in the second, he terminated treaties in accordance with actions taken by Congress. Only once has Congress terminated a treaty by a joint resolution; that was a mutual defense treaty with France, from which, in 1798, Congress declared the United States "freed and exonerated." In that case, breaking the treaty almost amounted to an act of war; indeed, two days later Congress authorized hostilities against France, which were only narrowly averted.

    http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Treaties.htm

    It seems that in 1978 Carter terminated a defence treaty with Taiwan and got away with it.

    And here is Carter explaining to Walter Cronkite why he thought he could get away with it.
    Although after that, Carter abrogated the Bancroft Treaties (preventing dual citizenship, which SCOTUS had ruled unconstitutional) in 1980 "acting in consultation with the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations" (Wikipedia) which suggests he later felt it was sensible to include Congress in some way.
    That is one cool avatar
  • Options
    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    Aye
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    West Wing Reports
    President has only done a few campaign events for Clinton - none in key swing states like FLA, OH. WWR asked @presssec why? "Stay tuned"

    Obama endorsing Trump?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited September 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    Count me in.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Errrr... once Article 50 has been invoked, we'll be leaving in two years no matter how tough they are in negotiations.
    You need unanimous agreement to extend the negotiation period, but it appears to be the case that Article 50 can be unilaterally withdrawn so we would still have the power to reset the clock.
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    West Wing Reports
    President has only done a few campaign events for Clinton - none in key swing states like FLA, OH. WWR asked @presssec why? "Stay tuned"

    Well we all know she is best of friends with "that man".
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Perhaps a PB doctor can comment here, another doctor has a few issues with Hillary's health report

    http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/09/15/hillarys-health-report-full-holes-doctor-claims-took-test-not-exist-390810
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    We now have a change on 538 in that the NOWCAST model (41.3) is more favourable for Trump than the Polls Plus model (39.6)
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods but it certainly can impose tariffs that apply elsewhere - and if they refuse to sign a deal with us but everyone else does (which if we join TPP and get a deal with India and China will cover the vast majority of non-EU world trade) then it would effectively be possible to discriminate since they will be the worst case Most Favoured Nation then.
    Sadly, neither India, nor China, nor the US is anywhere near as pro-free trade as you think they are.

    TPP is likely dead in the water, sadly, as Hillary doesn't support it, and neither does Donald Trump or Congress. The US will not be signing a free trade deal with us, or anyone else, any time soon.

    The Indian government is extremely protectionist. They're not going to suddenly open up their markets to us.

    Which leaves China. Go and look at the details of the Switzerland-China trade deal (I'm not going to call it a free trade area, because it's really a reduced tariff area). It is extremely one sided.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    PlatoSaid said:

    West Wing Reports
    President has only done a few campaign events for Clinton - none in key swing states like FLA, OH. WWR asked @presssec why? "Stay tuned"

    Obama has cleared his October schedule for campaigning.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2016
    Alistair said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    West Wing Reports
    President has only done a few campaign events for Clinton - none in key swing states like FLA, OH. WWR asked @presssec why? "Stay tuned"

    Obama has cleared his October schedule for campaigning.
    What you mean he has cancelled his daily golf game? Election must be close...
  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    Count me in.
    Yes
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Just watching an old Michael Palin show on travel channel made in 1997.


    He is on the border between US and Mexico. Mile after mile of..er wall.

    Who had been the pres for the previous 4 years.... one Bill Clinton

    The whole "wall" thing is a ridiculous red herring. Firstly, as you say, because there is already a wall or fence for most of the border. Secondly, because most illegal immigrants don't cross the border that way. They get in their car, they drive to the border, they show their passport and their $10 tourist visa, and they say "No officer, I'm not coming to work, I'm just going to visit my cousin for his wedding. I'll be staying about a week." And then they forget to return.
    To be fair, unlike Trumps wall, the wall on the Palin show wasn't at all Beautiful.....
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    Probably
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    nunu said:

    MaxPB said:

    nunu said:

    nunu's fanatical devotion to Hillary is touching :lol:

    I'm not devoted to anyone I'm just not a conspiracy theorist like many Trump supporters on here seem to be, support him if you want to but please drop the nutcase biased liberal media meme, anyone can make that claim doesn't mean its true.
    The media in the US is massively liberal. Pointing that out doesn't make anyone a Trump supporter, but it does help understand what may be fuelling some of the injustice Trump supporters feel. The deplorables speech feeds into that as well, which is why it was such a misstep.

    I can tell you now, I'm not a Trump supporter. I have no enthusiasm for Hillary, I'd vote for her but that's about it. I can see why Trump exists, he is a symptom of globalisation, high immigration, cultural deterioration and stagnating long term wages for the lower middle classes. He is not the cause of dysfunction in the US, Hillary and her ilk are. Until the Dems recognise this then someone like Trump will be back in 2020 even if they scrape a win this time. The US needs an economy that works for everyone, not one that works for the very rich, subsidises poverty and does nothing for millions of people who work hard, play by the rules and get shat on, just like those Ford workers who's jobs are about to be outsourced to Mexico, enabled by NAFTA.
    O agree with most of what you just said, but the media in America played the Hillary falling down clip over and over again, so how can Ishmael claim that's biased reporting. Yes the New York and L.A based media are more liberal but the right has Fox news and a plethora of right wing media they don't really have a leg to stand on (pun not intended).
    Do stop whining. I pointed out two instances of deceptive presentation of one particular set of facts relevant to the campaign. You know nothing about my politics or beliefs but jumped in with an epic whineathon apparently based on the twin foundations that you have a conspiracy theory about conspiracy theorists, and have got the hots for Hillary. I said nothing about bias. I hold no theory about bias. I have nothing to say about bias. Is that clear?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods but it certainly can impose tariffs that apply elsewhere - and if they refuse to sign a deal with us but everyone else does (which if we join TPP and get a deal with India and China will cover the vast majority of non-EU world trade) then it would effectively be possible to discriminate since they will be the worst case Most Favoured Nation then.
    Sadly, neither India, nor China, nor the US is anywhere near as pro-free trade as you think they are.

    TPP is likely dead in the water, sadly, as Hillary doesn't support it, and neither does Donald Trump or Congress. The US will not be signing a free trade deal with us, or anyone else, any time soon.

    The Indian government is extremely protectionist. They're not going to suddenly open up their markets to us.

    Which leaves China. Go and look at the details of the Switzerland-China trade deal (I'm not going to call it a free trade area, because it's really a reduced tariff area). It is extremely one sided.
    Clinton's close aide, Terry McAuliffe, has said she will back TPP in office (he believes she only expressed some reservations to see off Sanders in the primary)
    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/terry-mcauliffe-hillary-clinton-tpp-trade-226253
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    PlatoSaid said:

    West Wing Reports
    President has only done a few campaign events for Clinton - none in key swing states like FLA, OH. WWR asked @presssec why? "Stay tuned"

    Well we all know she is best of friends with "that man".
    I'm still chuckling about "dicking bimbos". Bill as First Gentleman is going to be a hoot.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    PlatoSaid said:

    Perhaps a PB doctor can comment here, another doctor has a few issues with Hillary's health report

    http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/09/15/hillarys-health-report-full-holes-doctor-claims-took-test-not-exist-390810

    The ICD 10 does not code for whether a patient is contagious or not, as that depends on the stage of a condition rather than the cause.

    A CT angiogram does indeed require contrast, but is not the best imaging for looking at the cerebral venous sinuses. I suspect that it was an MRI angiogram as this is better for neuro-imaging and in particular for imaging the cerebral venous system. It does not require intravenous contrast because by tuning the machine it is possible to detect flow and reconstruct this in 3 dimensions.

  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    It did not work out well for the world.
    That graph should have been used by the Remain campaign as a more realistic 'doom' scenario once the Brexit dominoes start falling. We made a big mistake.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,292

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Errrr... once Article 50 has been invoked, we'll be leaving in two years no matter how tough they are in negotiations.
    You need unanimous agreement to extend the negotiation period, but it appears to be the case that Article 50 can be unilaterally withdrawn so we would still have the power to reset the clock.
    I think that is speculation at best. It was discussed last night as an issue on radio four's legal programme, and generally dismissed both on legal and common sense grounds (the latter being that in such circumstances the leaving process could become never-ending).
  • Options
    Paul_BedfordshirePaul_Bedfordshire Posts: 3,632
    edited September 2016
    <
    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK

    "He also warned Europe would accept economic pain to defend its core principles"

    Comedy Gold. I bet that will go down well in places like Greece and France
  • Options
    IanB2 said:


    I think that is speculation at best. It was discussed last night as an issue on radio four's legal programme, and generally dismissed both on legal and common sense grounds (the latter being that in such circumstances the leaving process could become never-ending).

    Just like Sweden is in a never-ending process of joining the Euro? Such fudges are not unknown.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.
    The combination of a trade war and populist politicians of the left and right is not an appealling one. It is probably particularly bad for an economy as open as ours.

    It is hard to know whare to best shelter assets. I suppose a neutral country with a stable democracy and strong currency. Switzerland I suppose.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited September 2016
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.
    I never said it would be a good thing (I voted for Remain and would probably vote for Hillary if I was American) but if by the end of the year we have had Brexit and Trump elected president it will certainly be on the cards!
  • Options
    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I created an account just to raise my hand!
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.
    The combination of a trade war and populist politicians of the left and right is not an appealling one. It is probably particularly bad for an economy as open as ours.

    It is hard to know whare to best shelter assets. I suppose a neutral country with a stable democracy and strong currency. Switzerland I suppose.
    Winning at life, clearly. Though a "kill all the bankers" movement might not go well should the world economy fall apart.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    There are other ways of doing it. Eg subjecting all incoming lorries to exhaustive searches with only one inspector so they have to wait days and their goods are rotten before they even get out of the port onto the motorway.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Are we expecting a YouGov poll tonight?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.
    The combination of a trade war and populist politicians of the left and right is not an appealling one. It is probably particularly bad for an economy as open as ours.

    It is hard to know whare to best shelter assets. I suppose a neutral country with a stable democracy and strong currency. Switzerland I suppose.
    Though if Switzerland persists with attempts to restrict free movement the EU may treat it in the same way as the UK
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    edited September 2016


    'Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK

    "He also warned Europe would accept economic pain to defend its core principles"

    Comedy Gold. I bet that will go down well in places like Greece and France'

    Yes, Germany and Luxembourg would be the last ones left standing and if the AfD continues to rise in Germany then Juncker may be back effectively leading Luxembourg!
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.
    That is a great graph.
  • Options
    welshowl said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    In which case we fulfil De Gaulle's prophecy and head for the "open sea ". If the article is halfway true it's a statement of how little ability they think they have to keep the EU together by consent: there's now some stick appearing - pour encourager les autres. In which case fuck 'em totally. I did not vote out to be bullied back in by a Continental Power. I'm not selling my soul for thirty pieces of silver.
    It sounds like a dangerous game. One source said in the article that the EU was willing to endanger their economic interests to defend EU fundamentals. I wonder how Ireland feels about that. Would they be willing to endanger their security interests too? The UK could easily threaten to withdraw all military guarantees to Eastern Europe, and intelligence co-operation too. They would be in danger of turning more member states against the EU.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited September 2016
    International Spectator
    The Iraq War will have cost the US over $2.4 trillion by 2017, according to the Congressional Budget Office. https://t.co/s7oKkL6d06

    Willing to fight for country.

    Pakistan: 89%
    India: 75%
    Turkey: 73%
    China: 71%
    Russia: 59%
    US: 44%
    UK: 27%
    Germany: 18%
    Japan: 11%

    (Gallup)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    welshowl said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    In which case we fulfil De Gaulle's prophecy and head for the "open sea ". If the article is halfway true it's a statement of how little ability they think they have to keep the EU together by consent: there's now some stick appearing - pour encourager les autres. In which case fuck 'em totally. I did not vote out to be bullied back in by a Continental Power. I'm not selling my soul for thirty pieces of silver.
    It sounds like a dangerous game. One source said in the article that the EU was willing to endanger their economic interests to defend EU fundamentals. I wonder how Ireland feels about that. Would they be willing to endanger their security interests too? The UK could easily threaten to withdraw all military guarantees to Eastern Europe, and intelligence co-operation too. They would be in danger of turning more member states against the EU.
    If the UK and a Trump led US withdraw all military guarantees to Eastern Europe, Putin would march into Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in the blink of an eye!
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I voted Leave and would vote Johnson.
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.
    The combination of a trade war and populist politicians of the left and right is not an appealling one. It is probably particularly bad for an economy as open as ours.

    It is hard to know whare to best shelter assets. I suppose a neutral country with a stable democracy and strong currency. Switzerland I suppose.
    Though if Switzerland persists with attempts to restrict free movement the EU may treat it in the same way as the UK
    Ditto Hungary. Lot of toys being thrown out of cots.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    There are other ways of doing it. Eg subjecting all incoming lorries to exhaustive searches with only one inspector so they have to wait days and their goods are rotten before they even get out of the port onto the motorway.
    There are of course many ways of doing it but it would all be part of the same trend
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    HYUFD said:

    In a last clutching of straws by Remainers, Rosamund Urwin suggests that if a second EU referendum could be held in 2020 Remain could win because of younger voters voting for the first time and Leave voters dying off
    http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/rosamund-urwin-brexit-limbo-is-a-further-insult-to-britain-s-youth-a3345806.html

    If that worked we would have perpetual Labour governments.
    Except voters tend to be more likely to vote Tory the older they get
    Partly that, but not the only factor in play. Life expectancy for Tory voters is longer, so the non-Tories tend to die off first. And people's political outlook is shaped during late teenage and early adulthood, which for the current elderly was at a time when the two-party system was at its peak.
    True, though I would suggest LDs or Greens probably live the longest, as they are the most middle class parties and the most health conscious
    Ah, but how many of them believe in the healing power of crystals or homeopathy?
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Andy Financial
    The Guardian announces 30% staff cut at U.S. operation: The Guardian is about to make major cuts to its U.S. ... https://t.co/QKQ4XEOu0d
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    welshowl said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    In which case we fulfil De Gaulle's prophecy and head for the "open sea ". If the article is halfway true it's a statement of how little ability they think they have to keep the EU together by consent: there's now some stick appearing - pour encourager les autres. In which case fuck 'em totally. I did not vote out to be bullied back in by a Continental Power. I'm not selling my soul for thirty pieces of silver.
    It sounds like a dangerous game. One source said in the article that the EU was willing to endanger their economic interests to defend EU fundamentals. I wonder how Ireland feels about that. Would they be willing to endanger their security interests too? The UK could easily threaten to withdraw all military guarantees to Eastern Europe, and intelligence co-operation too. They would be in danger of turning more member states against the EU.
    If the UK and a Trump led US withdraw all military guarantees to Eastern Europe, Putin would march into Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in the blink of an eye!
    I think that is an exaggeration. He might demand that Lithuania cede a corridor between Belarus and East Prussia though, which has a certain familiarity.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    PlatoSaid said:

    International Spectator
    The Iraq War will have cost the US over $2.4 trillion by 2017, according to the Congressional Budget Office. https://t.co/s7oKkL6d06

    Willing to fight for country.

    Pakistan: 89%
    India: 75%
    Turkey: 73%
    China: 71%
    Russia: 59%
    US: 44%
    UK: 27%
    Germany: 18%
    Japan: 11%

    (Gallup)

    Of course Pakistan and India would probably be fighting each other!
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    welshowl said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    In which case we fulfil De Gaulle's prophecy and head for the "open sea ". If the article is halfway true it's a statement of how little ability they think they have to keep the EU together by consent: there's now some stick appearing - pour encourager les autres. In which case fuck 'em totally. I did not vote out to be bullied back in by a Continental Power. I'm not selling my soul for thirty pieces of silver.
    It sounds like a dangerous game. One source said in the article that the EU was willing to endanger their economic interests to defend EU fundamentals. I wonder how Ireland feels about that. Would they be willing to endanger their security interests too? The UK could easily threaten to withdraw all military guarantees to Eastern Europe, and intelligence co-operation too. They would be in danger of turning more member states against the EU.
    Well, I think it's too early to be making apocalyptic predictions, but if the EU institutions do decide to get militant then it'll be down to whether there's enough willpower amongst the member state governments to bring them to heel.

    The risk, as you allude to, is that the British people and Government express an equal and opposite reaction towards continental Europe, and that the rest of the European alliance system then threatens to unravel.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    Not if Britain also proposes tariffs and trade barriers on German, French and Italian cars, French wine etc exported to the UK, which I think May will raise if she needs to. In her meetings with Merkel, Hollande and Renzi she cleverly explained exactly how many German, French and Italian jobs depend on goods sent to the UK
    The UK can't discriminate against EU goods. WTO rules basically state that you need to treat all countries - with which you do not have a free trade or MFN deal with - equally.

    (Of course, if the US is about to leave the WTO, then the global system of free trade might collapse anyway, as it did in the late 1920s and early 1930s.)
    If Trump wins the WTO will almost certainly collapse as he will put tariffs and trade barriers on Mexican and Chinese imports to the US.

    In any case UK tariffs or trade barriers would only be imposed on EU goods coming to the UK if the EU first imposed tariffs or trade barriers on UK goods and services going to the EU in response to UK restrictions on freedom of movement, in which case it would be the EU who was first in breach of WTO rules anyway!
    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.
    The combination of a trade war and populist politicians of the left and right is not an appealling one. It is probably particularly bad for an economy as open as ours.

    It is hard to know whare to best shelter assets. I suppose a neutral country with a stable democracy and strong currency. Switzerland I suppose.
    Though if Switzerland persists with attempts to restrict free movement the EU may treat it in the same way as the UK
    Ditto Hungary. Lot of toys being thrown out of cots.
    Yes, their referendum next month on refugee quotas will be very important
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    PlatoSaid said:

    Andy Financial
    The Guardian announces 30% staff cut at U.S. operation: The Guardian is about to make major cuts to its U.S. ... https://t.co/QKQ4XEOu0d

    Great news.

    The sooner the Guardian goes out of business the better.
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    International Spectator
    The Iraq War will have cost the US over $2.4 trillion by 2017, according to the Congressional Budget Office. https://t.co/s7oKkL6d06

    Willing to fight for country.

    Pakistan: 89%
    India: 75%
    Turkey: 73%
    China: 71%
    Russia: 59%
    US: 44%
    UK: 27%
    Germany: 18%
    Japan: 11%

    (Gallup)

    I suspect that the number in the UK would rise to nearer that of Pakistan if the war was because of a direct threat to the UK
  • Options
    MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Essexit said:

    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I voted Leave and would vote Johnson.
    That is how I would vote aswell.
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    Andy Financial
    The Guardian announces 30% staff cut at U.S. operation: The Guardian is about to make major cuts to its U.S. ... https://t.co/QKQ4XEOu0d

    But Milne is still on the payroll....
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    538 Trying to give the Democrats some hope http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/independent-voters-are-overrated/?ex_cid=2016-forecast based on opinion polls up to 3 weeks old.
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited September 2016
    rcs1000 said:


    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.

    We can argue about depression economics.
    One of the biggest mistakes was the USA putting up tariffs when they had a trade surplus, Europe was the one that had huge trade deficits at the time that needed financing from the USA, protectionism along with currency devaluations led Europe to a much speedier recovery from the Great Depression than the USA.

    I remember the economic tables from the book The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, the balance of economic power shifted against the USA during the Great Depression.

    Here it is, Table 14 Per Capita Lev. of Industrialization 1880-1938

    UK 1928: 122, 1938: 157
    USA 1928: 182, 1938: 167
    FR 1928: 82, 1938: 73
    GER 1928: 128, 1938: 144
    IT 1928: 44, 1938: 61
    USSR 1928: 20, 1938 :38
    JAP: 1928:30, 1938 51

    By 1939 the UK had surpassed the USA in per capita income.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    MP_SE said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Andy Financial
    The Guardian announces 30% staff cut at U.S. operation: The Guardian is about to make major cuts to its U.S. ... https://t.co/QKQ4XEOu0d

    Great news.

    The sooner the Guardian goes out of business the better.
    They've been making like a charity just lately and trying to drum up donations from the readership, but I wouldn't have thought it would make much difference.

    The Guardian is burning through its reserves at a rate of knots. One suspects that either they'll have to swallow their socialist principles and erect a paywall, or go the way of the Independent.
  • Options
    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.

    We can argue about depression economics.
    One of the biggest mistakes was the USA putting up tariffs when they had a trade surplus, Europe was the one that had huge trade deficits at the time that needed financing from the USA, protectionism along with currency devaluations led Europe to a much speedier recovery from the Great Depression than the USA.

    I remember the economic tables from the book The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, the balance of economic power shifted against the USA during the Great Depression.

    Here it is, Table 14 Per Capita Lev. of Industrialization 1880-1938

    UK 1928: 122, 1938: 157
    USA 1928: 182, 1938: 167
    FR 1928: 82, 1938: 73
    GER 1928: 128, 1938: 144
    IT 1928: 44, 1938: 61
    USSR 1928: 20, 1938 :38
    JAP: 1928:30, 1938 51

    By 1939 the UK had surpassed the USA in per capita income.
    US and France. Did the frogs go all tariff mad too?
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,449
    MP_SE said:

    Essexit said:

    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I voted Leave and would vote Johnson.
    That is how I would vote aswell.
    Ditto.
    I suppose if I were forced to make a choice between Donald and Hillary, I would vote Hillary, on the grounds that from a British perspective she's the low-risk option. But it would stick in the craw. I'd have to wash my hand for hours afterwards.
    Of course, people with votes arent voting for who would be best for the British interest but who would be best for the American interest - and rightly so.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.

    We can argue about depression economics.
    One of the biggest mistakes was the USA putting up tariffs when they had a trade surplus, Europe was the one that had huge trade deficits at the time that needed financing from the USA, protectionism along with currency devaluations led Europe to a much speedier recovery from the Great Depression than the USA.

    I remember the economic tables from the book The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, the balance of economic power shifted against the USA during the Great Depression.

    Here it is, Table 14 Per Capita Lev. of Industrialization 1880-1938

    UK 1928: 122, 1938: 157
    USA 1928: 182, 1938: 167
    FR 1928: 82, 1938: 73
    GER 1928: 128, 1938: 144
    IT 1928: 44, 1938: 61
    USSR 1928: 20, 1938 :38
    JAP: 1928:30, 1938 51

    By 1939 the UK had surpassed the USA in per capita income.
    US and France. Did the frogs go all tariff mad too?
    If memory serves the French were the last to come off the Gold Standard.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    weejonnie said:

    538 Trying to give the Democrats some hope http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/independent-voters-are-overrated/?ex_cid=2016-forecast based on opinion polls up to 3 weeks old.

    It's rather touching, isn't it?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    PlatoSaid said:

    Perhaps a PB doctor can comment here, another doctor has a few issues with Hillary's health report

    http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/09/15/hillarys-health-report-full-holes-doctor-claims-took-test-not-exist-390810

    The ICD 10 does not code for whether a patient is contagious or not, as that depends on the stage of a condition rather than the cause.

    A CT angiogram does indeed require contrast, but is not the best imaging for looking at the cerebral venous sinuses. I suspect that it was an MRI angiogram as this is better for neuro-imaging and in particular for imaging the cerebral venous system. It does not require intravenous contrast because by tuning the machine it is possible to detect flow and reconstruct this in 3 dimensions.

    Reading the published letter by Clinton's doctor, it does mention a CT Scan of the sinuses in Feb 2016, which included the brain (reported as normal) as well as showing some sinusitis. The CT in September mentioned was a chest one which showed a middle lobe pneumonia, and no cardiac calcification. There would be no need of contrast, so it was a CT rather than CTA, probably simple typo as there is no indication for contrast unless suspecting cardiac disease.

    The report makes rather a big deal of the hazards of Coumarin (known as Warfarin in the UK) which is a very safe drug when monitored correctly.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Essexit said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    glw said:

    HYUFD said:

    In a last clutching of straws by Remainers, Rosamund Urwin suggests that if a second EU referendum could be held in 2020 Remain could win because of younger voters voting for the first time and Leave voters dying off
    http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/rosamund-urwin-brexit-limbo-is-a-further-insult-to-britain-s-youth-a3345806.html

    If that worked we would have perpetual Labour governments.
    Except voters tend to be more likely to vote Tory the older they get
    Partly that, but not the only factor in play. Life expectancy for Tory voters is longer, so the non-Tories tend to die off first. And people's political outlook is shaped during late teenage and early adulthood, which for the current elderly was at a time when the two-party system was at its peak.
    True, though I would suggest LDs or Greens probably live the longest, as they are the most middle class parties and the most health conscious
    Ah, but how many of them believe in the healing power of crystals or homeopathy?
    Certainly most of the Greens!
  • Options
    @TSE - I've vanilla'ed you. Ta.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    HYUFD said:

    welshowl said:

    AndyJS said:

    "EU officials 'believe Britain will give up on Brexit if they make negotiations tough enough'"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/15/eu-officials-believe-britain-will-give-up-on-brexit-if-they-make/

    In which case we fulfil De Gaulle's prophecy and head for the "open sea ". If the article is halfway true it's a statement of how little ability they think they have to keep the EU together by consent: there's now some stick appearing - pour encourager les autres. In which case fuck 'em totally. I did not vote out to be bullied back in by a Continental Power. I'm not selling my soul for thirty pieces of silver.
    It sounds like a dangerous game. One source said in the article that the EU was willing to endanger their economic interests to defend EU fundamentals. I wonder how Ireland feels about that. Would they be willing to endanger their security interests too? The UK could easily threaten to withdraw all military guarantees to Eastern Europe, and intelligence co-operation too. They would be in danger of turning more member states against the EU.
    If the UK and a Trump led US withdraw all military guarantees to Eastern Europe, Putin would march into Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania in the blink of an eye!
    I think that is an exaggeration. He might demand that Lithuania cede a corridor between Belarus and East Prussia though, which has a certain familiarity.
    Indeed, he would offer them terms but impossible ones
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited September 2016

    Speedy said:

    rcs1000 said:


    If the WTO collapses, that is not good for the world economy. This is what happened last time people started putting tariffs up to try and protect jobs:

    image

    It did not work out well for the world.

    We can argue about depression economics.
    One of the biggest mistakes was the USA putting up tariffs when they had a trade surplus, Europe was the one that had huge trade deficits at the time that needed financing from the USA, protectionism along with currency devaluations led Europe to a much speedier recovery from the Great Depression than the USA.

    I remember the economic tables from the book The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, the balance of economic power shifted against the USA during the Great Depression.

    Here it is, Table 14 Per Capita Lev. of Industrialization 1880-1938

    UK 1928: 122, 1938: 157
    USA 1928: 182, 1938: 167
    FR 1928: 82, 1938: 73
    GER 1928: 128, 1938: 144
    IT 1928: 44, 1938: 61
    USSR 1928: 20, 1938 :38
    JAP: 1928:30, 1938 51

    By 1939 the UK had surpassed the USA in per capita income.
    US and France. Did the frogs go all tariff mad too?
    France was the last to abandon the idea of fixed currencies, at the detriment of being in no economic condition to fight WW2, they were too stubborn.

    You can see how the shift of economic power against the USA and France and in favour of Germany, Britain, Russia, Italy and Japan, set up the military situation in the first years of WW2.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034



    "He also warned Europe would accept economic pain to defend its core principles"

    Comedy Gold. I bet that will go down well in places like Greece and France

    You have to wonder whether the people making such statements have the faintest idea about the British psyche. We are an easy going tolerant lot until you try to push us around. The more you bully, the more bloody minded we become. Surely, anyone who has even the most passing of acquaintance with Britain should know this.
  • Options
    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    These Trump boosters are awfy shy..
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,826
    edited September 2016
    PlatoSaid said:

    Perhaps a PB doctor can comment here, another doctor has a few issues with Hillary's health report

    http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/09/15/hillarys-health-report-full-holes-doctor-claims-took-test-not-exist-390810

    I'm not a doctor but I struggle to believe Hillary has got (had?) pneumonia.

    I've seen people with pneumonia a few times in my life and the patient will be very, very unwell for several days and generally ill for weeks afterwards.

    Mother had it in June 2003 and September 2003 she was still trying to get better...

    The way she scooted up those airplane steps, waving at the camera's as she did so, she did NOT look like someone getting over a serious, potentially life-threatening lung infection....
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited September 2016
    MTimT said:



    "He also warned Europe would accept economic pain to defend its core principles"

    Comedy Gold. I bet that will go down well in places like Greece and France

    You have to wonder whether the people making such statements have the faintest idea about the British psyche. We are an easy going tolerant lot until you try to push us around. The more you bully, the more bloody minded we become. Surely, anyone who has even the most passing of acquaintance with Britain should know this.
    Get to the back of the queue you Little Englander....
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    HYUFD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    International Spectator
    The Iraq War will have cost the US over $2.4 trillion by 2017, according to the Congressional Budget Office. https://t.co/s7oKkL6d06

    Willing to fight for country.

    Pakistan: 89%
    India: 75%
    Turkey: 73%
    China: 71%
    Russia: 59%
    US: 44%
    UK: 27%
    Germany: 18%
    Japan: 11%

    (Gallup)

    Of course Pakistan and India would probably be fighting each other!
    Presumably the 44% in the US are the nationalistic, xenophobic, basket of deplorables.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Ben Page
    Fave statistic this week. If born in 1916 about 1% chance being alive now. Born now maybe 50% chance alive in 2116...
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited September 2016
    I now that others may have posted this but the polls plus forecast of 538 has now Trump just 0.1% less chance than his all time high of 40.2 during the conventions.

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#plus

    It going towards the 272-266 for Hillary that my average daily tacker poll now indicates.

    Literally Trump needs just one of N.H, Michigan, Colorado, Pennsylvania, N.Mexico, and Wisconsin and he wins.

    But we have no recent polls from there.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Is this new?

    COLORADO POLL:

    TRUMP 42% (+4)
    CLINTON 38%

    Emerson Polling (9/11-9/13) / https://t.co/DlAA8dfKrL
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    PlatoSaid said:

    Is this new?

    COLORADO POLL:

    TRUMP 42% (+4)
    CLINTON 38%

    Emerson Polling (9/11-9/13) / https://t.co/DlAA8dfKrL

    President Trump.
  • Options
    Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    PlatoSaid said:

    Ben Page
    Fave statistic this week. If born in 1916 about 1% chance being alive now. Born now maybe 50% chance alive in 2116...

    Horrifying. I sincerely hope to die of a heart attack by 75 at the latest and while I can still wipe my own arse.
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    Ben Page
    Fave statistic this week. If born in 1916 about 1% chance being alive now. Born now maybe 50% chance alive in 2116...

    I guess he doesn't know about The Event in 2074
  • Options
    SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    New state polls:

    Michigan, EPIC/MRA

    Hillary 38
    Trump 35
    Johnson 10
    Stein 4
    Refused to answer/Undecided 13

    Emerson, National

    Trump 43
    Hillary 41
    Johnson 9
    Stein 2

    Colorado

    Trump 42
    Hillary 38
    Johnson 13
    Stein 2

    Georgia

    Trump 45
    Hillary 39
    Johnson 9
    Stein 3

    Missouri

    Trump 47
    Hillary 34
    Johnson 7
    Stein 6

    Arkansas

    Trump 57
    Hillary 29
    Johnson 5
    Stein 3

    Trump passes 270.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    edited September 2016
    Speedy said:

    I now that others may have posted this but the polls plus forecast of 538 has now Trump just 0.1% less chance than his all time high of 40.2 during the conventions.

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#plus

    It going towards the 272-266 for Hillary that my average daily tacker poll now indicates.

    Literally Trump needs just one of N.H, Michigan, Colorado, Pennsylvania, N.Mexico, and Wisconsin and he wins.

    But we have no recent polls from there.

    Trump is 43.4 on the Nowcast but that went up to 55.4.

    If you look at the simulation data (the two curves in the what do you expect from the Electoral College) you will note they are tightening up. Basically when Trump was in the low 30%s any improvement resulted in only a small increased chance of winning. Now the same improvement results in a much larger increased chance of winning.

    NB the chance of Trump winning each of his key states is much less than the equivalent position of Clinton winning hers - hence the reduced probability of winning.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Speedy said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Is this new?

    COLORADO POLL:

    TRUMP 42% (+4)
    CLINTON 38%

    Emerson Polling (9/11-9/13) / https://t.co/DlAA8dfKrL

    President Trump.
    CAN'T STUMP THE TRUMP
  • Options
    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819

    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I created an account just to raise my hand!
    Most people on this site are probably like that - seems like majority of leavers here are Dan Hannan type leavers not farageists.

    Wonder if there's anyone who voted Remain and would vote Trump over Hillary?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    MTimT said:



    "He also warned Europe would accept economic pain to defend its core principles"

    Comedy Gold. I bet that will go down well in places like Greece and France

    You have to wonder whether the people making such statements have the faintest idea about the British psyche. We are an easy going tolerant lot until you try to push us around. The more you bully, the more bloody minded we become. Surely, anyone who has even the most passing of acquaintance with Britain should know this.
    The impression is that we're dealing with people who are about as in touch with reality as the Chinese Imperial Court c. 1850.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I created an account just to raise my hand!
    Most people on this site are probably like that - seems like majority of leavers here are Dan Hannan type leavers not farageists.

    Wonder if there's anyone who voted Remain and would vote Trump over Hillary?
    Piers Morgan?
  • Options
    William_H said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Ben Page
    Fave statistic this week. If born in 1916 about 1% chance being alive now. Born now maybe 50% chance alive in 2116...

    I guess he doesn't know about The Event in 2074
    The next AV thread?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    weejonnie said:

    HYUFD said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    International Spectator
    The Iraq War will have cost the US over $2.4 trillion by 2017, according to the Congressional Budget Office. https://t.co/s7oKkL6d06

    Willing to fight for country.

    Pakistan: 89%
    India: 75%
    Turkey: 73%
    China: 71%
    Russia: 59%
    US: 44%
    UK: 27%
    Germany: 18%
    Japan: 11%

    (Gallup)

    Of course Pakistan and India would probably be fighting each other!
    Presumably the 44% in the US are the nationalistic, xenophobic, basket of deplorables.
    Most probably but if the US was invaded the figure would rise much more
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    .
    GIN1138 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Perhaps a PB doctor can comment here, another doctor has a few issues with Hillary's health report

    http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/09/15/hillarys-health-report-full-holes-doctor-claims-took-test-not-exist-390810

    I'm not a doctor but I struggle to believe Hillary has got (had?) pneumonia.

    I've seen people with pneumonia a few times in my life and the patient will be very, very unwell for several days and generally ill for weeks afterwards.

    Mother had it in June 2003 and September 2003 she was still trying to get better...

    The way she scooted up those airplane steps, waving at the camera's as she did so, she did NOT look like someone getting over a serious, potentially life-threatening lung infection....
    So much for not being infectious either - Gateway Pundit reporting 6 in her office had pneumonia recently.

    I was at secondary school with girl who got it - she was off for a few weeks and only came back part time for another three. She was very fit horse rider. Hillary's diagnosis just rings totally hollow for me. Ordinary flu is horrible and knocks a normal person sideways for a week solid.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Speedy said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Is this new?

    COLORADO POLL:

    TRUMP 42% (+4)
    CLINTON 38%

    Emerson Polling (9/11-9/13) / https://t.co/DlAA8dfKrL

    President Trump.
    It is one poll, Civitas today has North Carolina tied which if Hillary won would secure her the presidency even if she lost Colorado. However cleary the race is now almost neck and neck
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I created an account just to raise my hand!
    Most people on this site are probably like that - seems like majority of leavers here are Dan Hannan type leavers not farageists.

    Wonder if there's anyone who voted Remain and would vote Trump over Hillary?
    Both are quite unsuitable. Were I an American, I'd probably think Trump was the lesser evil.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I created an account just to raise my hand!
    Most people on this site are probably like that - seems like majority of leavers here are Dan Hannan type leavers not farageists.

    Wonder if there's anyone who voted Remain and would vote Trump over Hillary?
    I would abstain or vote third-party if I were a US citizen. Both candidates are terrible, just terrible in different ways. If forced at gunpoint, I'd reluctantly vote Clinton as the lesser of two evils.
  • Options
    PlatoSaid said:

    Is this new?

    COLORADO POLL:

    TRUMP 42% (+4)
    CLINTON 38%

    Emerson Polling (9/11-9/13) / https://t.co/DlAA8dfKrL

    BernieBros4Trump
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,292
    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I created an account just to raise my hand!
    Most people on this site are probably like that - seems like majority of leavers here are Dan Hannan type leavers not farageists.

    Wonder if there's anyone who voted Remain and would vote Trump over Hillary?
    Piers Morgan?
    The way Hilary is going I am beginning to be ever so marginally tempted....although in reality I would plump for one of the third party candidates to duck the unpleasant choice.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Speedy said:

    I now that others may have posted this but the polls plus forecast of 538 has now Trump just 0.1% less chance than his all time high of 40.2 during the conventions.

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#plus

    It going towards the 272-266 for Hillary that my average daily tacker poll now indicates.

    Literally Trump needs just one of N.H, Michigan, Colorado, Pennsylvania, N.Mexico, and Wisconsin and he wins.

    But we have no recent polls from there.

    Sahil Kapur was claiming on Twitter a bit earlier that Trump still had no hope re EC. That sounded like straw clutching to me. He's normally pretty straight too.
  • Options
    Speedy said:

    New state polls:

    Trump passes 270.

    Is JackW hiding out in Chappaqua with Hillary's medical team? It's about time we got an update from his model.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    John_M said:

    I would abstain or vote third-party if I were a US citizen. Both candidates are terrible, just terrible in different ways. If forced at gunpoint, I'd reluctantly vote Clinton as the lesser of two evils.

    If forced at gunpoint I'd say I'd vote Hilary, but write-in Biden.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Ishmael_X said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Ben Page
    Fave statistic this week. If born in 1916 about 1% chance being alive now. Born now maybe 50% chance alive in 2116...

    Horrifying. I sincerely hope to die of a heart attack by 75 at the latest and while I can still wipe my own arse.
    I'd be delighted to last that long and get hit from behind by a bus.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I created an account just to raise my hand!
    Most people on this site are probably like that - seems like majority of leavers here are Dan Hannan type leavers not farageists.

    Wonder if there's anyone who voted Remain and would vote Trump over Hillary?
    Piers Morgan?
    The way Hilary is going I am beginning to be ever so marginally tempted....although in reality I would plump for one of the third party candidates to duck the unpleasant choice.
    Many will I expect. I am sticking by Hillary with the narrowest winning margin since 2000
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    PlatoSaid said:

    Speedy said:

    I now that others may have posted this but the polls plus forecast of 538 has now Trump just 0.1% less chance than his all time high of 40.2 during the conventions.

    http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo#plus

    It going towards the 272-266 for Hillary that my average daily tacker poll now indicates.

    Literally Trump needs just one of N.H, Michigan, Colorado, Pennsylvania, N.Mexico, and Wisconsin and he wins.

    But we have no recent polls from there.

    Sahil Kapur was claiming on Twitter a bit earlier that Trump still had no hope re EC. That sounded like straw clutching to me. He's normally pretty straight too.
    If a candidate leads by 1% overall, or more, they'll carry the Electoral College.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    nunu said:

    Can I have a show of hands who voted Leave but would vote for Hillary to stop Trump. Thanx.

    I created an account just to raise my hand!
    Most people on this site are probably like that - seems like majority of leavers here are Dan Hannan type leavers not farageists.

    Wonder if there's anyone who voted Remain and would vote Trump over Hillary?
    Both are quite unsuitable. Were I an American, I'd probably think Trump was the lesser evil.
    I think I would do the same - but crossing my fingers behind my back that his crazier statements are hyperbole and not Mein Kampf type blueprints.
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Speedy said:

    New state polls:

    Michigan, EPIC/MRA

    Hillary 38
    Trump 35
    Johnson 10
    Stein 4
    Refused to answer/Undecided 13

    Emerson, National

    Trump 43
    Hillary 41
    Johnson 9
    Stein 2

    Colorado

    Trump 42
    Hillary 38
    Johnson 13
    Stein 2

    Georgia

    Trump 45
    Hillary 39
    Johnson 9
    Stein 3

    Missouri

    Trump 47
    Hillary 34
    Johnson 7
    Stein 6

    Arkansas

    Trump 57
    Hillary 29
    Johnson 5
    Stein 3

    Trump passes 270.

    Consistent with a 1 1/2% swing to Trump which puts Wisconsin and New Hampshire in Play. However the levels of uncertainty still means Clinton favourite.
This discussion has been closed.