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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The boundary review is so favourable to CON because Cam/Os

SystemSystem Posts: 11,712
edited September 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The boundary review is so favourable to CON because Cam/Osbo defied the Electoral Commission to fix it that way

There’ve been two major changes to the electoral system that the Tories have brought which have combined together to make the boundary review so favourable to them.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,638
    edited September 2016
    Dave and George bequeathed Theresa May a golden inheritance, I hope she doesn't screw it up.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,530
    edited September 2016
    Second like Smith
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,974
    edited September 2016
    Silver medal?
    Bronze
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005
    FPT, I think that the criticism of Cameron over Libya is unfair. When a homicidal dictator promises a massacre, I'm inclined to take him at his word.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Will tim be tweeting about this golden legacy that George has left the Tories?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,018
    "The second is the introduction of equal sized constituencies."

    Heaven forbid we have equal sized constituencies! I can hear the screams of gerrymandering already.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    I seek the wisdom of the crowds...

    What probability would you assign to the boundaries going through at 600 seats and in [or close to - some tinkering is inevitable] the current proposed form?

    I'd say 20% right now. Majority is insufficient, and Tory MPs will be queuing up to kick the gift horse's teeth out.
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    Good morning, everyone.

    If Cameron and Osborne had had the foresight to know the 2m extra voters would not be helpful, they would've had the foresight to realise their campaign approach was rubbish. It's certainly helpful for May, in removing a pro-Labour bias.

    FPT: on emotive news, the worst example was Libya just as things kicked off. The Government got an undeserved kicking for not magically evacuating thousands of people from the middle of a desert, in a war zone, who had chosen to remain when the countries either side had both erupted into revolutions immediately beforehand.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189

    Dave and George bequeathed Theresa May a golden inheritance, I hope she doesn't screw it up.

    They bequeathed her BREXIT too. However given Corbyn is leader of the opposition very hard to see anything other than a Tory victory in 2020
  • Options
    FWIW, the assumption that the 2 million extra voters are all going to file in line has been quite eloquently disproved by the referendum, no?

    The best option for Labour on this, other than the squawking, is to suggest a regular timetable and parameters so that we're not using 2000 boundaries and data in 2025 and beyond. Be calm, don't throw emotive nonsense like Gerrymandering around, try to act like grown-ups on the whole thing.
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    Morning all.

    Individual voter registration replaced the anachronistic Head of household, twas a good thing.
  • Options

    FWIW, the assumption that the 2 million extra voters are all going to file in line has been quite eloquently disproved by the referendum, no?

    The best option for Labour on this, other than the squawking, is to suggest a regular timetable and parameters so that we're not using 2000 boundaries and data in 2025 and beyond. Be calm, don't throw emotive nonsense like Gerrymandering around, try to act like grown-ups on the whole thing.

    AFAIK that was also part of the legislation - review every 5 years.
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    Would "end of 2016" not also have been too late for the 2020 GE, once consultation etc was out of the way? In other words kick it down the road for another 5 years.....
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    FWIW, the assumption that the 2 million extra voters are all going to file in line has been quite eloquently disproved by the referendum, no?

    The best option for Labour on this, other than the squawking, is to suggest a regular timetable and parameters so that we're not using 2000 boundaries and data in 2025 and beyond. Be calm, don't throw emotive nonsense like Gerrymandering around, try to act like grown-ups on the whole thing.

    AFAIK that was also part of the legislation - review every 5 years.
    Perfect.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Prof G Mander on the Tory payroll.
  • Options

    FWIW, the assumption that the 2 million extra voters are all going to file in line has been quite eloquently disproved by the referendum, no?

    The best option for Labour on this, other than the squawking, is to suggest a regular timetable and parameters so that we're not using 2000 boundaries and data in 2025 and beyond. Be calm, don't throw emotive nonsense like Gerrymandering around, try to act like grown-ups on the whole thing.

    The magic of FPTP with registration-based boundaries is that if you put a UKIP voter in a safe seat on the electoral register, that means more Labour MPs. The corollary is that if you're a Labour voter in an area of safe Tory seats, you help Labour best by staying off it.
  • Options
    Jonathan said:

    Prof G Mander on the Tory payroll.

    A Labour defection then.....
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited September 2016

    Jonathan said:

    Prof G Mander on the Tory payroll.

    A Labour defection then.....
    Quite so, and very succinctly put.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,974

    Good morning, everyone.

    If Cameron and Osborne had had the foresight to know the 2m extra voters would not be helpful, they would've had the foresight to realise their campaign approach was rubbish. It's certainly helpful for May, in removing a pro-Labour bias.

    FPT: on emotive news, the worst example was Libya just as things kicked off. The Government got an undeserved kicking for not magically evacuating thousands of people from the middle of a desert, in a war zone, who had chosen to remain when the countries either side had both erupted into revolutions immediately beforehand.

    There was a lot of stick flying around at the time for delays in evacuating Brits, and William Hague was the fall guy. The delays were caused, as it rurned out, by the efforts of the Hereford branch of the diplomatic service preparing for a non-standard evacuation of hundreds of workers stranded in the desert.
  • Options
    Is TMay her rap name?
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
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    Incidentally, FPT

    "Another 6 Golds for Team GB in Paralympics. It feels like them doing even better than 4 years ago is getting overshadowed this time around. "

    In 2008, Team GB got 102 medals, 42 gold. In 2004, 94 medals, 35 gold and in 2000, 131 medals with 41 gold.

    2012, for all the hype, was a bit down on some of the previous Paralympics. They're doing better than 2012, but you'd want to look at Sydney, I think, for record totals. Which, in turn, is why that's not getting mentioned.

    There are 530 odd medal events and we're just past 290 medals awarded ...

    FWIW, this is a good, expected thing as many, many, many more countries can compete now.
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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited September 2016
    Jonathan said:

    Prof G Mander on the Tory payroll.

    He is very active in Wales. Vote shares of ~ 34 % for Lab, ~ 21 % for Tories and ~ 20 % Plaid Cymru gives an assembly that is almost ~ 50 % Lab.

    The activities of Prof G. Mander are pretty universal across all parties.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189
    edited September 2016
    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    The PM would get blamed regardless and in a post Brexit world we cannot afford to annoy big non-EU markets like China touch without good reason and unless serious security concerns Hinkley should go ahead
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Sandpit said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    If Cameron and Osborne had had the foresight to know the 2m extra voters would not be helpful, they would've had the foresight to realise their campaign approach was rubbish. It's certainly helpful for May, in removing a pro-Labour bias.

    FPT: on emotive news, the worst example was Libya just as things kicked off. The Government got an undeserved kicking for not magically evacuating thousands of people from the middle of a desert, in a war zone, who had chosen to remain when the countries either side had both erupted into revolutions immediately beforehand.

    There was a lot of stick flying around at the time for delays in evacuating Brits, and William Hague was the fall guy. The delays were caused, as it rurned out, by the efforts of the Hereford branch of the diplomatic service preparing for a non-standard evacuation of hundreds of workers stranded in the desert.
    Knowing someone who was evacuated from Tripoli, the situation fell apart that quickly that an orderly, neat evacuation was never going to be possible. They were also quite annoyed that an interview they gave a tabloid ended up being twisted into an attack on the evacuation process with most of what they said being ignored.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,974

    Morning all.

    Individual voter registration replaced the anachronistic Head of household, twas a good thing.

    This is the real reason for the Labour squawking, and was a very sensible move by Cameron and Osborne given the court cases involving electoral corruption.
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    HYUFD said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    The PM would get blamed regardless and in a post Brexit world we cannot afford to annoy big non-EU markets like China touch without good reason and unless serious security concerns Hinkley should go ahead
    Hinkley Point is expensive, unproven and yesterday's answer to our energy needs. The decision to go ahead would be a political one. The odds are high that there will be delays and further cost increases and it will rightly be May's fault.
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    Is TMay her rap name?

    I suggested 'TBagging', short for Theresa May handbagging.

    But Mike nixed it.

    I would have loved to do a thread headlined Jeremy Corbyn gets Tbagged at PMQs
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    Early days. But the nuclear decision is not one that fills me with delight.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    edited September 2016

    Jonathan said:

    Prof G Mander on the Tory payroll.

    He is very active in Wales. Vote shares of ~ 34 % for Lab, ~ 21 % for Tories and ~ 20 % Plaid Cymru gives an assembly that is almost ~ 50 % Lab.

    The activities of Prof G. Mander are pretty universal across all parties.
    He tends to work for whoever is in power locally or nationally. His work in Wales is nothing to his work in the South. In my county the Tories control ALLthe seats on 30-40 percent of the vote.

    What marks this out as a new low is the overt political motivation.

    My conclusion is simply that FPTP is utterly broken.
  • Options
    FPT:

    Blair will go down in history for Iraq (which, for the Left, was his greatest crime) but for the Right a lot of the insidious effects of his policies go all the way back to 1997: his asymmetric devolution settlement, the 1998 Human Rights Act, the changes in immigration law including scrapping primary purpose in 1998 (long predating the eastward expansion of the EU in 2004) the enthusiastic and unquestioning signatures to European treaty after treaty, promoting further integration, the vindictive approach to rural affairs, including the Hunting Act, failing to properly fund the armed forces, an increasing obsession with identity politics, including the Reglious Hatred and Equality Act, and the encouragement of chipping away at respect for British institutions - in pursuit of Cool Britannia - which the BBC very enthusiastically and quickly picked up on.

    It is for this reason that so many people, particularly in England, were looking forward to the return of a Conservative Government and so disappointed when Modernisers seemed to pay them nothing more than lip service concluding, incorrectly, in my view, that Blair was on the right side of history and that ditching such pledges were necessary because they were an electoral millstone. In truth, they were objectionable only to a certain sort of middle/upper-middle class metropolitan voter but those were the sort dominating the modernisers social circles.

    That's why Cameron ended up with the Heir to Blair moniker ringing true.
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    Sean_F said:

    FPT, I think that the criticism of Cameron over Libya is unfair. When a homicidal dictator promises a massacre, I'm inclined to take him at his word.

    Quite so. If Cameron hadn't intervened I am convinced there would have been a massacre in Benghazi.

    I am grateful he did.
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    HYUFD said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    The PM would get blamed regardless and in a post Brexit world we cannot afford to annoy big non-EU markets like China touch without good reason and unless serious security concerns Hinkley should go ahead
    Hinkley will be fine, its Mays decision making about the whole process that is unimpressive.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    FPT:

    Blair will go down in history for Iraq (which, for the Left, was his greatest crime) but for the Right a lot of the insidious effects of his policies go all the way back to 1997: his asymmetric devolution settlement, the 1998 Human Rights Act, the changes in immigration law including scrapping primary purpose in 1998 (long predating the eastward expansion of the EU in 2004) the enthusiastic and unquestioning signatures to European treaty after treaty, promoting further integration, the vindictive approach to rural affairs, including the Hunting Act, failing to properly fund the armed forces, an increasing obsession with identity politics, including the Reglious Hatred and Equality Act, and the encouragement of chipping away at respect for British institutions - in pursuit of Cool Britannia - which the BBC very enthusiastically and quickly picked up on.

    It is for this reason that so many people, particularly in England, were looking forward to the return of a Conservative Government and so disappointed when Modernisers seemed to pay them nothing more than lip service concluding, incorrectly, in my view, that Blair was on the right side of history and that ditching such pledges were necessary because they were an electoral millstone. In truth, they were objectionable only to a certain sort of middle/upper-middle class metropolitan voter but those were the sort dominating the modernisers social circles.

    That's why Cameron ended up with the Heir to Blair moniker ringing true.

    Yup.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,917
    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    Beyond that, it's a pretty stupid decision. The best case scenario is that it will add about 10% to the price of electricity for the next thirty years. Worst case is that it won't ever work properly.

    There are alternate technologies which probably have as good a chance of working, but which would produce cheaper power and represent smaller financial gambles.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,917
    HYUFD said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    The PM would get blamed regardless and in a post Brexit world we cannot afford to annoy big non-EU markets like China touch without good reason and unless serious security concerns Hinkley should go ahead

    Sounds a bit like Danegeld to me.
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    FWIW, the assumption that the 2 million extra voters are all going to file in line has been quite eloquently disproved by the referendum, no?

    The best option for Labour on this, other than the squawking, is to suggest a regular timetable and parameters so that we're not using 2000 boundaries and data in 2025 and beyond. Be calm, don't throw emotive nonsense like Gerrymandering around, try to act like grown-ups on the whole thing.

    It's a warning not to be too clever.

    I expect Cameron/Osborne are regretting it now.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634
    Just read about Hinkley. What a waste. My view of Mrs. May is turning more and more negative as the days roll on.
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    PlatoSaid said:

    FPT:

    Blair will go down in history for Iraq (which, for the Left, was his greatest crime) but for the Right a lot of the insidious effects of his policies go all the way back to 1997: his asymmetric devolution settlement, the 1998 Human Rights Act, the changes in immigration law including scrapping primary purpose in 1998 (long predating the eastward expansion of the EU in 2004) the enthusiastic and unquestioning signatures to European treaty after treaty, promoting further integration, the vindictive approach to rural affairs, including the Hunting Act, failing to properly fund the armed forces, an increasing obsession with identity politics, including the Reglious Hatred and Equality Act, and the encouragement of chipping away at respect for British institutions - in pursuit of Cool Britannia - which the BBC very enthusiastically and quickly picked up on.

    It is for this reason that so many people, particularly in England, were looking forward to the return of a Conservative Government and so disappointed when Modernisers seemed to pay them nothing more than lip service concluding, incorrectly, in my view, that Blair was on the right side of history and that ditching such pledges were necessary because they were an electoral millstone. In truth, they were objectionable only to a certain sort of middle/upper-middle class metropolitan voter but those were the sort dominating the modernisers social circles.

    That's why Cameron ended up with the Heir to Blair moniker ringing true.

    Yup.
    you were a blairite once? or did you only float that way briefly? (memory is a cruel mistress)
  • Options
    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,912
    edited September 2016
    Nigelb said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    Beyond that, it's a pretty stupid decision. The best case scenario is that it will add about 10% to the price of electricity for the next thirty years. Worst case is that it won't ever work properly.

    There are alternate technologies which probably have as good a chance of working, but which would produce cheaper power and represent smaller financial gambles.
    Why, then, would EDF choose this particular technology? I can't see that the company have anything to gain by using unnecessarily expensive techniques to generate electricity.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Oh my

    http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_57d838f2e4b0a32e2f6d00d4

    Corbyn Campaign Threaten To Pull Out Of Sky News Debate Over Audience Balance ‘Concerns’

    Pollsters and TV firm insist they’re scrupulously fair
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    Is TMay her rap name?

    I suggested 'TBagging', short for Theresa May handbagging.

    But Mike nixed it.

    I would have loved to do a thread headlined Jeremy Corbyn gets Tbagged at PMQs
    But to teabag someone you need a pair of..oh, I see.
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Nigelb said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    Beyond that, it's a pretty stupid decision. The best case scenario is that it will add about 10% to the price of electricity for the next thirty years. Worst case is that it won't ever work properly.

    There are alternate technologies which probably have as good a chance of working, but which would produce cheaper power and represent smaller financial gambles.
    There are always alternate techs that promise the world for large projects better to go with tried and tested especially when it's the nations energy you're messing around with.

    Also Hinkley is expensive but it generates alot of jobs and keeps the UK in the nuclear R&d sector
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189

    HYUFD said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    The PM would get blamed regardless and in a post Brexit world we cannot afford to annoy big non-EU markets like China touch without good reason and unless serious security concerns Hinkley should go ahead
    Hinkley Point is expensive, unproven and yesterday's answer to our energy needs. The decision to go ahead would be a political one. The odds are high that there will be delays and further cost increases and it will rightly be May's fault.
    Well until we get other alternatives up and fully running there will be more Hinkley Points
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,376

    FWIW, the assumption that the 2 million extra voters are all going to file in line has been quite eloquently disproved by the referendum, no?

    The best option for Labour on this, other than the squawking, is to suggest a regular timetable and parameters so that we're not using 2000 boundaries and data in 2025 and beyond. Be calm, don't throw emotive nonsense like Gerrymandering around, try to act like grown-ups on the whole thing.

    The magic of FPTP with registration-based boundaries is that if you put a UKIP voter in a safe seat on the electoral register, that means more Labour MPs. The corollary is that if you're a Labour voter in an area of safe Tory seats, you help Labour best by staying off it.
    Yes, ironically. I think it IS gerrymandering. My recollection is that the underlying principle has been ruled unconstitutional in the US, where some Southern authorities also tried to weight districts by registraiton instead of eligible population to take advantage of lower registration by urban/young/black/mobile voters. A fair Labour response would be to accept any reasonable measures to tighten registration (such as individual registration) but to instruct the Boundary Commission to weight by their best estimate of eligible population, based on census and survey data.

    I asked how come Labour didn't block it in the crucial second Lords vote, and was told that some Labour Lords hesitated at defeating the Government on what seemed to be an important Government priority - they felt that sending a warning shot with the first vote was sufficient and it would be improper for the unelected chamber to push it to defeat. Naturally, the Government simply ignored the warning shot once they'd got it through anyway.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189
    JonathanD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    The PM would get blamed regardless and in a post Brexit world we cannot afford to annoy big non-EU markets like China touch without good reason and unless serious security concerns Hinkley should go ahead
    Hinkley will be fine, its Mays decision making about the whole process that is unimpressive.
    She at least scrutinised the decision more closely even if she gives the eventual go ahead
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    PlatoSaid said:

    FPT:

    Blair will go down in history for Iraq (which, for the Left, was his greatest crime) but for the Right a lot of the insidious effects of his policies go all the way back to 1997: his asymmetric devolution settlement, the 1998 Human Rights Act, the changes in immigration law including scrapping primary purpose in 1998 (long predating the eastward expansion of the EU in 2004) the enthusiastic and unquestioning signatures to European treaty after treaty, promoting further integration, the vindictive approach to rural affairs, including the Hunting Act, failing to properly fund the armed forces, an increasing obsession with identity politics, including the Reglious Hatred and Equality Act, and the encouragement of chipping away at respect for British institutions - in pursuit of Cool Britannia - which the BBC very enthusiastically and quickly picked up on.

    It is for this reason that so many people, particularly in England, were looking forward to the return of a Conservative Government and so disappointed when Modernisers seemed to pay them nothing more than lip service concluding, incorrectly, in my view, that Blair was on the right side of history and that ditching such pledges were necessary because they were an electoral millstone. In truth, they were objectionable only to a certain sort of middle/upper-middle class metropolitan voter but those were the sort dominating the modernisers social circles.

    That's why Cameron ended up with the Heir to Blair moniker ringing true.

    Yup.
    you were a blairite once? or did you only float that way briefly? (memory is a cruel mistress)
    Keen in 1997, sceptical but no other Party in 2001 - very reluctant in 2005 but Tories still too weak. I think the damage Blair did took a few years to be shown in all it's horrors.

    I wasn't happy about PC or immigration or the West Lothian Question by early 00s - and it just got worse and worse.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,189
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    The PM would get blamed regardless and in a post Brexit world we cannot afford to annoy big non-EU markets like China touch without good reason and unless serious security concerns Hinkley should go ahead

    Sounds a bit like Danegeld to me.
    It like realpolitik and Danegeld was used to keep the Danes out not invite them in!
  • Options
    OT - Team GB are doing brilliantly, they’ve achieved the same Gold tally in week 1, as they managed for the whole of London 2012. (which I thought would be hard to beat)

    Feel rather guilty, I’ve watched almost nothing of it, other than a few catch-up videos.
  • Options
    Incidentally, it's worth noting how atrocious energy policy has been since 1997. Not saying that makes May's decision, or dithering, right, but she does start from a bad position. Labour should've built more power stations. The Coalition should've built more power stations.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    FWIW, the assumption that the 2 million extra voters are all going to file in line has been quite eloquently disproved by the referendum, no?

    The best option for Labour on this, other than the squawking, is to suggest a regular timetable and parameters so that we're not using 2000 boundaries and data in 2025 and beyond. Be calm, don't throw emotive nonsense like Gerrymandering around, try to act like grown-ups on the whole thing.

    The magic of FPTP with registration-based boundaries is that if you put a UKIP voter in a safe seat on the electoral register, that means more Labour MPs. The corollary is that if you're a Labour voter in an area of safe Tory seats, you help Labour best by staying off it.
    Yes, ironically. I think it IS gerrymandering. My recollection is that the underlying principle has been ruled unconstitutional in the US, where some Southern authorities also tried to weight districts by registraiton instead of eligible population to take advantage of lower registration by urban/young/black/mobile voters. A fair Labour response would be to accept any reasonable measures to tighten registration (such as individual registration) but to instruct the Boundary Commission to weight by their best estimate of eligible population, based on census and survey data.

    I asked how come Labour didn't block it in the crucial second Lords vote, and was told that some Labour Lords hesitated at defeating the Government on what seemed to be an important Government priority - they felt that sending a warning shot with the first vote was sufficient and it would be improper for the unelected chamber to push it to defeat. Naturally, the Government simply ignored the warning shot once they'd got it through anyway.
    Blame the Chartists. It was they who campaigned for one man one vote, and they got it, ultimately. Constituency boundaries have been based upon registered voters since 1885.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    "The second is the introduction of equal sized constituencies."

    Heaven forbid we have equal sized constituencies! I can hear the screams of gerrymandering already.

    Gerrymandering is to do with the shape and boundaries of constituencies rather than size as I recall.

    Not that I think these are gerrymandered, though of course parties always want to maximise their advantage.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    FPT:

    Blair will go down in history for Iraq (which, for the Left, was his greatest crime) but for the Right a lot of the insidious effects of his policies go all the way back to 1997: his asymmetric devolution settlement, the 1998 Human Rights Act, the changes in immigration law including scrapping primary purpose in 1998 (long predating the eastward expansion of the EU in 2004) the enthusiastic and unquestioning signatures to European treaty after treaty, promoting further integration, the vindictive approach to rural affairs, including the Hunting Act, failing to properly fund the armed forces, an increasing obsession with identity politics, including the Reglious Hatred and Equality Act, and the encouragement of chipping away at respect for British institutions - in pursuit of Cool Britannia - which the BBC very enthusiastically and quickly picked up on.

    It is for this reason that so many people, particularly in England, were looking forward to the return of a Conservative Government and so disappointed when Modernisers seemed to pay them nothing more than lip service concluding, incorrectly, in my view, that Blair was on the right side of history and that ditching such pledges were necessary because they were an electoral millstone. In truth, they were objectionable only to a certain sort of middle/upper-middle class metropolitan voter but those were the sort dominating the modernisers social circles.

    That's why Cameron ended up with the Heir to Blair moniker ringing true.

    How dated the "progressive" outlook of Tony Blair now seems.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,917

    Nigelb said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    Beyond that, it's a pretty stupid decision. The best case scenario is that it will add about 10% to the price of electricity for the next thirty years. Worst case is that it won't ever work properly.

    There are alternate technologies which probably have as good a chance of working, but which would produce cheaper power and represent smaller financial gambles.
    Why, then, would EDF choose this particular technology? I can't see that the company have anything to gain by using unnecessarily expensive techniques to generate electricity.
    Because it's what they have. And they are not shouldering much of the financial risk:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/20/edf-to-make-return-on-hinkley-point-even-if-costs-soar-by-25pc/
    But the four other plants they are building aren't yet working, so were are taking quite a substantial one:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olkiluoto_Nuclear_Power_Plant#Unit_3
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamanville_Nuclear_Power_Plant
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_(nuclear_reactor)#Taishan_1_.26_2
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,917
    JonathanD said:

    Nigelb said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    Beyond that, it's a pretty stupid decision. The best case scenario is that it will add about 10% to the price of electricity for the next thirty years. Worst case is that it won't ever work properly.

    There are alternate technologies which probably have as good a chance of working, but which would produce cheaper power and represent smaller financial gambles.
    There are always alternate techs that promise the world for large projects better to go with tried and tested especially when it's the nations energy you're messing around with.

    Also Hinkley is expensive but it generates alot of jobs and keeps the UK in the nuclear R&d sector
    Tried and tested...
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olkiluoto_Nuclear_Power_Plant#Unit_3
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamanville_Nuclear_Power_Plant
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_(nuclear_reactor)#Taishan_1_.26_2
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    RobD said:

    "The second is the introduction of equal sized constituencies."

    Heaven forbid we have equal sized constituencies! I can hear the screams of gerrymandering already.

    Gerrymandering is to do with the shape and boundaries of constituencies rather than size as I recall.

    Not that I think these are gerrymandered, though of course parties always want to maximise their advantage.
    Gerrymandering involves maximising the number of safe seats with huge, but useless, majorities for your opponents.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,454
    MaxPB said:

    Just read about Hinkley. What a waste. My view of Mrs. May is turning more and more negative as the days roll on.

    FPT ECHR/HRA

    we have committed not to leave the ECHR; if we are going to rewrite the HRA it would be curious if we didn't incorporate the ECHR into it or why not just leave?

    Unless we leave out certain ECHR provisions in the new BoR and then wait for a ECtHR judgement which we subsequently ignore.

    That's a) complicated and b) not the gold-plating UK I know and love.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited September 2016
    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    "The second is the introduction of equal sized constituencies."

    Heaven forbid we have equal sized constituencies! I can hear the screams of gerrymandering already.

    Gerrymandering is to do with the shape and boundaries of constituencies rather than size as I recall.

    Not that I think these are gerrymandered, though of course parties always want to maximise their advantage.
    Gerrymandering involves maximising the number of safe seats with huge, but useless, majorities for your opponents Party
    That's Jezzamandering...
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930
    edited September 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Just read about Hinkley. What a waste. My view of Mrs. May is turning more and more negative as the days roll on.

    We do look a bit silly... It kind of looks like she pulled the plug, went to G20 and had a bloody good spanking by the Chinese and has now capitulated.

    Hope it's not an omen for our Brexit negotiation...
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634

    Nigelb said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    Beyond that, it's a pretty stupid decision. The best case scenario is that it will add about 10% to the price of electricity for the next thirty years. Worst case is that it won't ever work properly.

    There are alternate technologies which probably have as good a chance of working, but which would produce cheaper power and represent smaller financial gambles.
    Why, then, would EDF choose this particular technology? I can't see that the company have anything to gain by using unnecessarily expensive techniques to generate electricity.
    It was supposed to be a loss-leader from EDF-Siemens intended to revitalise the European nuclear industry after decades of drift. The EPR design fixed some of the issues with old PWRs, but the EPR has not been successfully built or demonstrated over 10 years since the first one went into planning. Even the one closest to completion may get delayed from its 2018 start date to 2020 (Finland) while the French one might never turn on.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sean_F said:

    FPT:

    Blair will go down in history for Iraq (which, for the Left, was his greatest crime) but for the Right a lot of the insidious effects of his policies go all the way back to 1997: his asymmetric devolution settlement, the 1998 Human Rights Act, the changes in immigration law including scrapping primary purpose in 1998 (long predating the eastward expansion of the EU in 2004) the enthusiastic and unquestioning signatures to European treaty after treaty, promoting further integration, the vindictive approach to rural affairs, including the Hunting Act, failing to properly fund the armed forces, an increasing obsession with identity politics, including the Reglious Hatred and Equality Act, and the encouragement of chipping away at respect for British institutions - in pursuit of Cool Britannia - which the BBC very enthusiastically and quickly picked up on.

    It is for this reason that so many people, particularly in England, were looking forward to the return of a Conservative Government and so disappointed when Modernisers seemed to pay them nothing more than lip service concluding, incorrectly, in my view, that Blair was on the right side of history and that ditching such pledges were necessary because they were an electoral millstone. In truth, they were objectionable only to a certain sort of middle/upper-middle class metropolitan voter but those were the sort dominating the modernisers social circles.

    That's why Cameron ended up with the Heir to Blair moniker ringing true.

    How dated the "progressive" outlook of Tony Blair now seems.
    Not really. Much of it has become the new unremarkeable normal, such as gay equality.

    May was in the cabinet for 6 years in a central role as Home Sec over most of these policies, and before that party Chair.

    Either she bought into the Cameron modernising agenda, or she is the most shamelessly hypocritical careerist politician in recent history. My money is on the latter.
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Incidentally, it's worth noting how atrocious energy policy has been since 1997. Not saying that makes May's decision, or dithering, right, but she does start from a bad position. Labour should've built more power stations. The Coalition should've built more power stations.

    You're saying that there should be state-owned/subsidised generating capacity, yes? If not, what do you mean?
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    The PM would get blamed regardless and in a post Brexit world we cannot afford to annoy big non-EU markets like China touch without good reason and unless serious security concerns Hinkley should go ahead
    Hinkley Point is expensive, unproven and yesterday's answer to our energy needs. The decision to go ahead would be a political one. The odds are high that there will be delays and further cost increases and it will rightly be May's fault.
    Well until we get other alternatives up and fully running there will be more Hinkley Points
    Tell me where the Hinkley Point type of reactor is 'up and running'.
    This is what has happened to the other 'Hinkley Points':
    "EDF and Areva have been facing 'lengthy delays and steep cost overruns'[75] on EPRs being built at Flamanville Nuclear Power Plant in France and at Olkiluoto Nuclear Power Plant in Finland.[76][77][78] In October 2013, George Monbiot, a supporter of nuclear power, said that "the clunky third-generation power station chosen for Hinkley C already looks outdated, beside the promise of integral fast reactors and liquid fluoride thorium reactors. While other power stations are consuming nuclear waste (spent fuel), Hinkley will be producing it."[79] In February 2015, France's energy minister said that 'an overhaul of the country’s state-controlled nuclear energy industry was imminent'.[75] On 13 June 2016, the Fédération Nationale des Cadres Supérieurs[80] unveiled a series of problems with the EPR design, including that the French nuclear safety authority (ASN) may not give the green light to the EPR being constructed at Flamanville due to various anomalies, there may be “identical flaws” in the Areva EPR being built at Taishan 1 in China, falsification of parts from Areva’s Le Creusot plant that potentially put safety checks at risk, and multibillion-euro litigation between Areva and the Finnish energy group TVO over delays to the EPR scheme at Olkiluoto Nuclear Power Plant remains unsettled.[81]"
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just read about Hinkley. What a waste. My view of Mrs. May is turning more and more negative as the days roll on.

    FPT ECHR/HRA

    we have committed not to leave the ECHR; if we are going to rewrite the HRA it would be curious if we didn't incorporate the ECHR into it or why not just leave?

    Unless we leave out certain ECHR provisions in the new BoR and then wait for a ECtHR judgement which we subsequently ignore.

    That's a) complicated and b) not the gold-plating UK I know and love.
    I think the latter solution is what May had been asking for when she was Home Secretary. Liz Truss doesn't seem like she is capable enough of delivering it though.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,376
    Sean_F said:



    Blame the Chartists. It was they who campaigned for one man one vote, and they got it, ultimately. Constituency boundaries have been based upon registered voters since 1885.

    Indded. Chartists! Bloody closet Tories. :) More seriously, the law of unintended consequences.

    On Libya, some of us did anticipate exactly what's happened, and deplored Labour's support for the intervention with no clear Government/Allied plan for what would happen next. It was a contributory reason for Corbyn's success that many of us felt that the former leadership had simply shrugged off Iraq and was continuing with interventionism as normal.

    It was particularly bad since we'd previously wooed Gaddafi and persuaded him to give up WMD that he really did have - the message that if you're a wicked dictator but decide to play nice with the West we'll knife you anyway when we get the chance was wrong at multiple levels.
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    Incidentally, it's worth noting how atrocious energy policy has been since 1997. Not saying that makes May's decision, or dithering, right, but she does start from a bad position. Labour should've built more power stations. The Coalition should've built more power stations.

    Electricity was privatised in 1990 following a speech by Lawson in 1982 which more or less said 'This is no business of govt.; from now on the market will provide'.

    If we disagree, we should return it to public ownership or pending that possibly to a structure like Welsh Water (no shareholders, co. limited by guarantee, profits formerly going to shareholders appear as a credit on your bill.)
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634
    FPT on Vince Cable, he had a huge personal vote IMO, but it was all completely undone by his stupid support of the mansion tax. One cannot support a mansion tax on properties above £1m or £2m and also expect to continue as MP for Twickenham.
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    Mr. Matt, the seeming ban on coal- and gas-fired power stations is daft. As stopgap measures whilst geothermal etc is developed, keeping the lights on is the priority. The carbon tax/carbon credit scheme [the name slips my mind] is doing nothing but damaging our energy-generating capacity.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,917
    As far as I can see, the best case for Hinckley is that it end up as a much larger version of one of Brown's more crappy PFI deals.

    Worst case is that it never works, and we end up investigating alternatives in 5 or 10 years' time...
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    JonathanD said:

    RobD said:

    On topic - the master strategist at work?

    Off topic, green light for Hinkley:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/14/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-pmqs-hinkley-point-live/

    Well that was a pointless waste of time by May. This is the sort of nonsense that got brown a reputation as a ditherer.

    Now any problems with Hinkley will be Mays fault whereas previously she could just have blamed Osborne.
    The PM would get blamed regardless and in a post Brexit world we cannot afford to annoy big non-EU markets like China touch without good reason and unless serious security concerns Hinkley should go ahead
    Hinkley Point is expensive, unproven and yesterday's answer to our energy needs. The decision to go ahead would be a political one. The odds are high that there will be delays and further cost increases and it will rightly be May's fault.
    Well until we get other alternatives up and fully running there will be more Hinkley Points
    I very much doubt it. Hinkley is to be built using a reactor design that still has yet to be made to work. The site in Finland is years late and massively over budget, the site in France ditto and we read the other day is probably never going to work to its design capacity because to do so would not be safe. What chance therefore that Hinkley will be built on time and to budget?

    By the time Hinkley is operational power technology will have moved on and the idea of building further massive pressurised reactors will seem as daft as building coal fired stations. We will have also thrown away our chance to re-build a nuclear industry of our own based on molten salt reactors of the type the UK company Moltex has has been working on and are now trying to get through the regulation hurdles.

    Hinkley is going to a massively expensive white elephant that will artificially inflate the price of electricity for thirty years with the French and the Chinese being the beneficiaries. Madness.
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    I thought as part of the Hinckley deal, China should have ceded Hong Kong back to the the U.K.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634
    Solid unemployment figures. No evidence of a Brexit shock.
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    Mr. Voter, the government is still involved, though, otherwise May's approval would not be needed for the nuclear power station.
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    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FPT:

    Blair will go down in history for Iraq (which, for the Left, was his greatest crime) but for the Right a lot of the insidious effects of his policies go all the way back to 1997: his asymmetric devolution settlement, the 1998 Human Rights Act, the changes in immigration law including scrapping primary purpose in 1998 (long predating the eastward expansion of the EU in 2004) the enthusiastic and unquestioning signatures to European treaty after treaty, promoting further integration, the vindictive approach to rural affairs, including the Hunting Act, failing to properly fund the armed forces, an increasing obsession with identity politics, including the Reglious Hatred and Equality Act, and the encouragement of chipping away at respect for British institutions - in pursuit of Cool Britannia - which the BBC very enthusiastically and quickly picked up on.

    It is for this reason that so many people, particularly in England, were looking forward to the return of a Conservative Government and so disappointed when Modernisers seemed to pay them nothing more than lip service concluding, incorrectly, in my view, that Blair was on the right side of history and that ditching such pledges were necessary because they were an electoral millstone. In truth, they were objectionable only to a certain sort of middle/upper-middle class metropolitan voter but those were the sort dominating the modernisers social circles.

    That's why Cameron ended up with the Heir to Blair moniker ringing true.

    Yup.
    you were a blairite once? or did you only float that way briefly? (memory is a cruel mistress)
    Keen in 1997, sceptical but no other Party in 2001 - very reluctant in 2005 but Tories still too weak. I think the damage Blair did took a few years to be shown in all it's horrors.

    I wasn't happy about PC or immigration or the West Lothian Question by early 00s - and it just got worse and worse.
    "a journey"

    I would have voted for him in 97 but wasn't registered. afterwards, I was glad I could say I hadn't
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930
    MaxPB said:

    Solid unemployment figures. No evidence of a Brexit shock.

    Economic Armageddon on hold again then...
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,974
    On Hinckley, in this part of the world they're also building a nuclear power station, but using more and smaller reactors of proven technology from Korea. For more power output than the proposed Hinckley development but at between a third and a half of the cost - depending on who's figures you believe.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barakah_nuclear_power_plant

    Surely this is a better idea than buying in something unproven? If we're going to do something unproven we should be developing it ourselves so as to benefit from selling it elsewhere in the future.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Joe Watts
    The unemployment rate was 4.9%, down from 5.5% for a year earlier. The last time it was lower was for July to September 2005, says the @ONS
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,930

    PlatoSaid said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    FPT:

    Blair will go down in history for Iraq (which, for the Left, was his greatest crime) but for the Right a lot of the insidious effects of his policies go all the way back to 1997: his asymmetric devolution settlement, the 1998 Human Rights Act, the changes in immigration law including scrapping primary purpose in 1998 (long predating the eastward expansion of the EU in 2004) the enthusiastic and unquestioning signatures to European treaty after treaty, promoting further integration, the vindictive approach to rural affairs, including the Hunting Act, failing to properly fund the armed forces, an increasing obsession with identity politics, including the Reglious Hatred and Equality Act, and the encouragement of chipping away at respect for British institutions - in pursuit of Cool Britannia - which the BBC very enthusiastically and quickly picked up on.

    It is for this reason that so many people, particularly in England, were looking forward to the return of a Conservative Government and so disappointed when Modernisers seemed to pay them nothing more than lip service concluding, incorrectly, in my view, that Blair was on the right side of history and that ditching such pledges were necessary because they were an electoral millstone. In truth, they were objectionable only to a certain sort of middle/upper-middle class metropolitan voter but those were the sort dominating the modernisers social circles.

    That's why Cameron ended up with the Heir to Blair moniker ringing true.

    Yup.
    you were a blairite once? or did you only float that way briefly? (memory is a cruel mistress)
    Keen in 1997, sceptical but no other Party in 2001 - very reluctant in 2005 but Tories still too weak. I think the damage Blair did took a few years to be shown in all it's horrors.

    I wasn't happy about PC or immigration or the West Lothian Question by early 00s - and it just got worse and worse.
    "a journey"

    I would have voted for him in 97 but wasn't registered. afterwards, I was glad I could say I hadn't
    I've taken a similar "journey" to Ms Plato. Voted Nu-Lab in 97, but didn't vote in 2001. Went Lib-Dem in 2005 and Con 2010/2015.
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    I heard a story that some in government thought that the private power generators had an obligation to generate enough electricity to meet our needs, and it cam as a shock (no pun intended) when they discovered that this isn't the case.

    The result is that EDF et al can just name whatever silly Strike Price they want, knowing that the government has little option but to agree, as they plead with the generators to build more capacity.

    The Oxburgh report points at a public sector approach to clean fossil generation. Let's see if the government can shed its ideological baggage and do the right thing to keep the lights on and cut CO2 emissions.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,005

    Sean_F said:

    FPT:

    Blair will go down in history for Iraq (which, for the Left, was his greatest crime) but for the Right a lot of the insidious effects of his policies go all the way back to 1997: his asymmetric devolution settlement, the 1998 Human Rights Act, the changes in immigration law including scrapping primary purpose in 1998 (long predating the eastward expansion of the EU in 2004) the enthusiastic and unquestioning signatures to European treaty after treaty, promoting further integration, the vindictive approach to rural affairs, including the Hunting Act, failing to properly fund the armed forces, an increasing obsession with identity politics, including the Reglious Hatred and Equality Act, and the encouragement of chipping away at respect for British institutions - in pursuit of Cool Britannia - which the BBC very enthusiastically and quickly picked up on.

    It is for this reason that so many people, particularly in England, were looking forward to the return of a Conservative Government and so disappointed when Modernisers seemed to pay them nothing more than lip service concluding, incorrectly, in my view, that Blair was on the right side of history and that ditching such pledges were necessary because they were an electoral millstone. In truth, they were objectionable only to a certain sort of middle/upper-middle class metropolitan voter but those were the sort dominating the modernisers social circles.

    That's why Cameron ended up with the Heir to Blair moniker ringing true.

    How dated the "progressive" outlook of Tony Blair now seems.
    Not really. Much of it has become the new unremarkeable normal, such as gay equality.

    May was in the cabinet for 6 years in a central role as Home Sec over most of these policies, and before that party Chair.

    Either she bought into the Cameron modernising agenda, or she is the most shamelessly hypocritical careerist politician in recent history. My money is on the latter.
    OTOH, Blair wanted the UK to adopt the Euro and to be at the heart of the EU, and we know how that has turned out. He brought in the HRA, but no government would now dream of implementing the ruling in Hirst v UK. Scarcely anyone shares his enthusiasm for mass migration, and who remembers Cool Britannia? Perhaps his biggest legacy is that centre right parties are now backed by over half the population.
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    Mr. Sandpit, agree entirely.

    Hinckley looks to be overly expensive at best, and to be utterly worthless, whilst very costly, at worst.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,974

    Let's see if the government can shed its ideological baggage and do the right thing to keep the lights on and cut CO2 emissions.

    Realising that the former is more important than the latter, would be a good starting point.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,974

    Mr. Sandpit, agree entirely.

    Hinckley looks to be overly expensive at best, and to be utterly worthless, whilst very costly, at worst.

    Any tips for Singapore yet? Nico at 5.9 looks value.
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    I heard a story that some in government thought that the private power generators had an obligation to generate enough electricity to meet our needs, and it cam as a shock (no pun intended) when they discovered that this isn't the case.

    The result is that EDF et al can just name whatever silly Strike Price they want, knowing that the government has little option but to agree, as they plead with the generators to build more capacity.

    Hinkley-C isn't supposed to open until 2023, which must mean it really opens some time after 2030, so it seems like a weird choice as a solution to a generation crunch caused by a wacky administrative mix-up.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    BeBraveComrades
    Number of people working in the NHS
    June 2010 1,596,000
    June 2016 1,619,000

    #SaveOurNHS from Tory cuts
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    GIN1138 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Just read about Hinkley. What a waste. My view of Mrs. May is turning more and more negative as the days roll on.

    We do look a bit silly... It kind of looks like she pulled the plug, went to G20 and had a bloody good spanking by the Chinese and has now capitulated.

    Hope it's not an omen for our Brexit negotiation...
    I think you might be right, Mr. Gin. At least it is the only reason that makes some sort of sense that I can see. When one of TM's first acts as PM was to put Hinkley on hold while the project was reviewed I had I high hopes. High hopes that this stupid project would finally be cancelled and high hopes that TM would turn out to be a good PM who was prepared to do what she thought was right for the UK.

    Her capitulating to threats from the Chinese doesn't bode well.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,010

    Mr. Sandpit, agree entirely.

    Hinckley looks to be overly expensive at best, and to be utterly worthless, whilst very costly, at worst.

    At best it is a complete waste of cash, at worst it is a strategic security risk.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634

    Mr. Sandpit, agree entirely.

    Hinckley looks to be overly expensive at best, and to be utterly worthless, whilst very costly, at worst.

    Well the other issue is that the cost may actually increase since the French steel being used is not of high enough quality which means paying for higher quality steel from Japan or Sheffield. In Flamanville there is a chance that the reactor will have to run at 70-80% capacity for its life because of this error, assuming they can actually get it activated. That would make the whole project uneconomic.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    PlatoSaid said:

    Joe Watts
    The unemployment rate was 4.9%, down from 5.5% for a year earlier. The last time it was lower was for July to September 2005, says the @ONS

    Funny, for some reason the usual crew isn't here to instantly tell us the difference between the UK and Scottish unemployment figure
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,015
    edited September 2016
    Mr. Sandpit, just checked Ladbrokes. He's 4.33 there.

    Where's he 5.9?
    Edited extra bit: ah, Betfair.

    That's clear value. Red Bull may be as good or better than Mercedes, but that's still a four horse race, and Rosberg's had a good run.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    FPT:

    Blair will go down in history for Iraq (which, for the Left, was his greatest crime) but for the Right a lot of the insidious effects of his policies go all the way back to 1997: his asymmetric devolution settlement, the 1998 Human Rights Act, the changes in immigration law including scrapping primary purpose in 1998 (long predating the eastward expansion of the EU in 2004) the enthusiastic and unquestioning signatures to European treaty after treaty, promoting further integration, the vindictive approach to rural affairs, including the Hunting Act, failing to properly fund the armed forces, an increasing obsession with identity politics, including the Reglious Hatred and Equality Act, and the encouragement of chipping away at respect for British institutions - in pursuit of Cool Britannia - which the BBC very enthusiastically and quickly picked up on.

    It is for this reason that so many people, particularly in England, were looking forward to the return of a Conservative Government and so disappointed when Modernisers seemed to pay them nothing more than lip service concluding, incorrectly, in my view, that Blair was on the right side of history and that ditching such pledges were necessary because they were an electoral millstone. In truth, they were objectionable only to a certain sort of middle/upper-middle class metropolitan voter but those were the sort dominating the modernisers social circles.

    That's why Cameron ended up with the Heir to Blair moniker ringing true.

    How dated the "progressive" outlook of Tony Blair now seems.
    Not really. Much of it has become the new unremarkeable normal, such as gay equality.

    May was in the cabinet for 6 years in a central role as Home Sec over most of these policies, and before that party Chair.

    Either she bought into the Cameron modernising agenda, or she is the most shamelessly hypocritical careerist politician in recent history. My money is on the latter.
    OTOH, Blair wanted the UK to adopt the Euro and to be at the heart of the EU, and we know how that has turned out. He brought in the HRA, but no government would now dream of implementing the ruling in Hirst v UK. Scarcely anyone shares his enthusiasm for mass migration, and who remembers Cool Britannia? Perhaps his biggest legacy is that centre right parties are now backed by over half the population.
    Those Centre-right parties are very different to the centre-right of previous generations. Even UKIP now agree on gay marriage, and May is wanting to have quotas for poorer children to have preferential access to her new schools.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,909
    PlatoSaid said:

    BeBraveComrades
    Number of people working in the NHS
    June 2010 1,596,000
    June 2016 1,619,000

    #SaveOurNHS from Tory cuts

    1.4% increase in staff to cover an 18% increase in throughput

    No wonder Tory cuts have ruined NHS Performance and Finances

    #SaveOurNHS from Tory cuts
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634
    Alistair said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    Joe Watts
    The unemployment rate was 4.9%, down from 5.5% for a year earlier. The last time it was lower was for July to September 2005, says the @ONS

    Funny, for some reason the usual crew isn't here to instantly tell us the difference between the UK and Scottish unemployment figure
    Higher inactive rate means a lower unemployment rate.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    PlatoSaid said:

    BeBraveComrades
    Number of people working in the NHS
    June 2010 1,596,000
    June 2016 1,619,000

    #SaveOurNHS from Tory cuts

    UK population in 2010 and 2016?
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    F1: I've put a tiny sum (my Betfair account is anaemic) on Rosberg at 5.9.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,909
    Alistair said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    BeBraveComrades
    Number of people working in the NHS
    June 2010 1,596,000
    June 2016 1,619,000

    #SaveOurNHS from Tory cuts

    UK population in 2010 and 2016?
    18% increase in NHS attendances over same period.

    You would have thought PBTories understood supply and demand
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,909


    May is wanting to have quotas for poorer children to have preferential access to her new schools.

    Doffs cap and is grateful

    FFS
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,634
This discussion has been closed.