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Outside of the Corbynites, the idée reçue amongst most of us is that Jeremy Corbyn leading Labour at a general election is going to lead Labour to experiencing an extinction level electoral defeat. On my most charitable days I’ll say Jeremy Corbyn has only two flaws, everything he says, and everything he does, but I’m going to challenge that perception and defend Jeremy Corbyn.
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Well done TSE ....
If so that is peak TSE craftsmanship.
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/conference/2007/09/labour-majority-increase
Yes, that's the reference from a former Labour MP.
Should be "an AV" reference....
1. "I’ll say Jeremy Corbyn has only two flaws, everything he says, and everything he does"
You've missed everything he doesn't say and do too. No-one has missed opportunities like Corbyn.
2. Jeremy Corbyn – A very thick skinned politician.
True, but only a virtue in moderation. An tin ear to reading people and situations and responding to them is the outcome of his thick skin.
3. Jeremy Corbyn – A man who has re-enegrised the left wing movement, why not the country?
Because the country doesn't agree with him, his values and his policies, nor does it respect him as a leader.
4. Jeremy Corbyn – A man underestimated in the polls
Labour perhaps overperformed the polls precisely because it wasn't voting for a government in which Corbyn was an option. It was therefore safe to vote Labour in local elections in a way it wouldn't in a General.
5. Jeremy Corbyn – A man ahead of his time (and principle)
Even were this true - and he's been wrong more often than he's been right - the best he'll get is a nod from posterity. There is no credit now for being out of step with the public even if you're proved right later.
6. Jeremy Corbyn – The master tactician
I think this is confusing luck with good judgement. He won in 2015 because he happened to be the right man in the right place at the right time. The right time being the first election after Labour opened themselves up to infiltration from the far left. Similarly, his Euroscepticism combined with his thick skin might have been in tune with the public in a stopped-clock way but has caused him no end of internal trouble for little wider credit. Perhaps his inaction in the EURef was a determining factor in the result but if so it was more accident than design. Master tacticians choose between options and pick the best one to suit their needs; Corbyn simply does what he believes in.
But. Would it have added 2% to it? I doubt it. I think it would probably have narrowed the gap somewhat. And 50.5:49.5 would have made for a very exciting evening.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/770475335494369283
https://youtu.be/H3pacMThWVE
Thick I will grant you.
Well done TSE, a true magnum opus that covers just about everything from geriatrics to genitals. - Still looking for the 80s pop song reference, but I’m sure it’s in there…
Yes, all your points are theoretically accurate. However, they all mean dealing with the Stupid Loan Company and its coterie of liars, morons, crooks and thugs for another 14 years. And I really can't face it.
Moreover, with interest rates on savings so low it does actually make financial sense to clear the debt rather than have the cash sitting in the bank. It would be a gain of around £100 a month for the loss of approximately £200 a year.
Brown has as much right as everyone else to express an opinion on the constitution. The current parliamentary system is clearly creaking.
It was always fashionable to oppose the Iraq war but opponents like Corbyn always avoid answering what exactly they would do to stop brutal dictators like Saddam
Anybody only needs to look at old photos of Corbyn laughing with Gerry Adams shortly after the Brighton bombing to know Corbyn did not mix with the IRA as part of some `peace process`.Corbyn is trying to re-invent history.He supported the IRA and ignored the pro-peace SDLP.
Corbyn has attended many Anti-Israel rallies that stink of anti-Semitism and turned a blind eye to it
Since becoming leader dozens of his MP`s have been personally intimidated by Corbyn`s supporters.Corbyn has done little to stop them
As TSE promised, in praise of Corbyn with reference to AV.
But actually, Corbyn isn't much good at elections. His campaign for this one has been an absolute joke. He wins by default, not by skill. Will that be enough in a national election? I very much doubt it.
It is worth remembering that William Hague won the European elections by a big margin at a time when Labour had ten-point poll leads overall. Differential turnout in minor elections counts for a lot, and we should not forget that Corbyn is under pressure because of his lacklustre Remain campaign.
The problem is not so much however that I don't agree with these statements, but that Corbyn's acolytes will. They are increasingly resembling Creationists, Christ Mythicists or Holocaust Deniers in their wilful refusal to engage with reality.
Brown has a right to express his view, but he shouldn't express it. He is a moron who thought he saved the world. He should never have been PM, he was unsuited to the job and Labour MP's knew it, but they let it happen.
Brown has done more to damage Labour's future with his "dark arts" than anyone else in the history of the Party.
As I said.... he should STFU>
That is Labours problem, the chance they will win the popular vote share but which they are spectacularly unable to then turn into bums on seats at Westminster. More likely is that Jez will not be there anyway come 2020 and the Labour Party as a result of internal fighting will be in an entirely different form ( if not two forms) than it is today.
I'd add one point. His "new politics" style is, despite derision here and elsewhere, quite widely respected. I have several normally Tory friends who think him the most attractive Labour politician, because they see that he maintains a serious, issue-focused manner when the default in politics is a sound-bite and an attack on someone else. At a personal level that engenders loyalty (example: me) and at a wider level it engenders curiosity and some respect. The fact that he has some supporters who are far from nice is taken (rightly IMO) as pretty inevitable in any large party.
As we're seeing in other countries, people don't always vote on a predictable left-right scale, and sometimes they vote for a style instead. I think he'll find it difficult to win a majority, but he has a style USP that his opponents generally lack which will make him do better than expected.
The problem is that Corbyn is all spin, indeed in that way alone he resembles the old USSR which made people poor and miserable while convincing them they were rich and happy. He calls for a kinder, gentler politics, and then praises activists who make violent threats, including rape, to activists from other parties. He poses as an anti-racist, and condones Holocaust Denial and personal attacks on Jews, even among his own MPs. He says he is a pacifist, but then endorses Fascist juntas and chums up with IRA terrorists.
If he actually meant some of the things he said, I would say that he'd be worth listening to even when I don't agree with him. But he doesn't. He says whatever he thinks is politically right-on at the time to make people feel he is sound. The tragedy is that he gets away with it.
I prefer Corbyn to Smith, and not simply because Smith is overtly pro-EU (unlike some, the EU is not a personal bogeyman). Corbyn may be wrong, but he's sincerely wrong. He's ineffectual, but says the right things regarding abuse in the party. He mostly keeps his cool even when under the most ridiculous attacks (e.g. accusations of racism. Anti-semite perhaps, racist no).
Personally I think it is quite cool that he has an allotment (as I do) and makes Jam.
A refreshing antidote to the fake glitz and spin. I might not agree with most of his policies but I do like someone who has a bit of seriousness about him and does what he believes even if it won't get him favourable headlines in tomorrows newspaper.
And importantly, in the context of this leadership election - he is not a eurosausage loving, toadie, remoaner conspiring to undermine the will of the British people in Junes referendum.
This does not feel like the path to power or renewal.
Nevertheless, I don't agree. As others have pointed out, Corbyn's strengths are those of a leader of a protest movement. His weaknesses, above all his past statements and his utter refusal to be pragmatic, are exactly those that will prevent him from winning the only election that really matters in this country. And while public opinion has moved towards him on some issues, that's probably the stopped clock syndrome at work. It has moved much further away from him on many issues, in particular on the need for state intervention in the economy, since he started in politics in the 70s.
University debating societies used to do the occasional 'defend the other side' debate, although in today's atmosphere of safe spaces and social media waiting to quote people out of context, I'd be surprised if they still happen. We once had a memorable debate on abortion, with the Christian Union in favour of it and the Women's Society against!
I have to accept though, given he is going to win this party election comfortably enough, that the Labour supporters I know are not typical of Labour party members. Older, wealthier, just Tories really.
He leaves the personal (and physical) attacks to others, of course. But they are all done in his name and he stands by as they happen. Not once has he stepped in - during debates or rallies - to ask his supporters to stop booing and defaming fellow members of the Labour party.
And Corbyn is so respected his personal polling is the worst of any Labour leader ever.
DUEMA.
At a time when people are worried by rising (if increasingly unreported) terrorism and borders/migration, a self-declared unilateralist friend of Hamas who thinks we should have open borders may not necessarily go down well.
Thickskinnedness is a personal characteristic; that of having the ability to withstand attacks and not letting it show (whether or not they're felt). Stubbornness is a behavioural choice as to how to act when up against significant opposition.
http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/video-corbyn-jokes-with-smeeth-heckler-after-chakrabarti-report/
Fraid I'm with Joff on this - he is a constitutional problem that needs to be solved. I hope he beats Smith, because of his extreme weathervaneness; but something needs to be done. The Labour Party becoming the third party is probably the best solution...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37216792
Good luck finding any mention of that in the report, though.
It's not conclusive in itself, of course, but it's a factor.
The secret of the Labour party was amongst the rhetoric, it contained a group of people who knew what it takes to put things into practice.
Labour was a party of government in it's DNA. It wasn't a left-right thing. Just a pragmatic, stoical attitude underpinning everything that got things done. Often trade unionists or local govt leaders led the way.
'Jeremy' favours protest over this kind of politics.
Pass the popcorn.
Mr. Mortimer, ideally, I'd agree. But it's hard to see how that could happen. UKIP is throwing away a golden opportunity by eating its own head with its own leadership woes, the Lib Dems have been crushed and Farron's too leftish (and Corbyn has that sort of vote sewn up), and the SNP are geographically limited.
The Lib Dems and UKIP should make gains, but it's difficult to see them supplanting Labour unless Corbyn's still there in 2025.
Corbyn's far-from-nice supporters are a bug, not a feature. He's sought out radical causes to support. He's aligned with terrorists who were at the time attacking Britain. He denounces violent abuse but does little to stop it while his chief ally and deputy eggs them on. Judge a man by his actions.
I accept that Corbyn is a courteous man, one with a sense of humour - not always on show but given the attacks on him, that's not too surprising - a relatively humble individual who is still in many ways the never-grown-up student 1970s activist he always was, despite his office, title and income. But attractive or endearing those qualities might be, they're far from sufficient to make a prime minister.
Excellent trolling TSE.
The worry is that you could have written a similar article about Hitler* in his rise to power.
* I thought we'd get Godwin out the way early for today.
Corbyn has proved the exception to lots of rules, but if he goes into the election still supporting Hamas and the IRA, thinks we should accept unlimited refugees while unilaterally disarming ourselves, thinks that the number one problem in the world is Palestine, that we should give the Falklands back to Argentina and Gibraltar back to Spain - then surely he's toast. Surely?
It is a concern that no matter how ridiculous and pathetic Corbyn has been Labour only rarely dip below 30% in the polls. Fatally poor for an opposition as we approach mid term of course but a bed rock of support no matter what. The Labour brand remains worth fighting for.
Jezza photoshopped onto James Bond in Casino Royale.
No way should Jezza be associated with the patrician lackey of the establishment and persecutor of the freedom fighters of SPECTRE.
The whole train mess was because he was trying to get a soundbite out, and it turned out he couldn't even do that without lying. Then when it gets messy, his little (both intellectually and morally) minion McDonnell attacks Branson personally.
His politics is nothing but attacking other people, and he does much to encourage his 'followers' who go further. As someone notes below, the Chakrabati (sp?) report, and his behaviour regarding it, was a new low for Labour.
There was a certain "cult of Maggie" during the 1980s amongst some of her supporters. Major, Brown and Cameron had no such cult, and Blair had it to a lesser extent.
Corbyn is a massive cult, and many of his supporters (though not all) are cultists. He can do no wrong. He is the Messiah. Anyone questioning his word should be attacked, whether they are right or wrong.
There are signs of this all over my FB feed (yes, I know). It's quite sad.
The Cult of Corbyn.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/aug/29/mother-of-murdered-british-backpacker-says-claims-alleged-killer-an-islamist-are-nonsense
Antisemitism is racism, therefore an antisemite is a racist.
And therefore "he might be an antisemite but he definitely isn't a racist" is logically invalid.
It has to be, as otherwise a person could validly say "I'm not racist, I just hate the Jews", which I hope we'd all agree was absurd.
As for rsc1000's comments regarding stamp duty being inappropriate for main house prices the other solution is capital gains tax on all non-indexed profits.. Sadly that's one of those things you can't do from here.
Is there a typo in there somewhere?
Showing people treasury or IFS reports which say that Corbyn will have to cut £Xbn because "Y" policy will result in slower growth isn't enough either. Hopefully the government has learned that lesson as well.
[If he did not, of course I'll retract that comment. But this is another problem with just not reporting terrorist killings accurately].
But I was wrong, and Labour got annihilated in Scotand. And it was not as if Labour voters sat on their hands: turnout was up a lot.
The Labour brand is worth fighting for as long as it does not become poisoned, as Scottish Labour did for a number of reasons; most notably Falkirk.
its far too easy to brand Muslim and terrorist together.even if the person said ""Allahu Akbar"
Its very dangerous to do so and the BBC in this instance are right to take extreme caution as the fist step. asnd until events prove otherwise.
But good point about the disaffected. It drove Brexit and it's driving Trump in the US. May and the Tories need to be careful about it, possibly even hope that UKIP can take that space rather than Corbyn. A good UKIP showing could let a few Tories in through the middle in marginals, and maybe a few MPs of their own taken from Labour.
IMO that's where Labour will be hurt at the GE compared to the polling. His appeal is far too narrow.
Clinton 48 .. Trump 43
Note - 97% of black voters have an unfavourable opinion of Trump and prefer bed bugs, middle seats on planes and the bubonic plague to the Donald ....
https://twitter.com/ppppolls
But his preferred form of aggression is - as with the Cameron example you cite - avoidance or the act of not engaging if circumstances require. But where he is forced into it, his manner generally remains polite even if his words are sarcastic.
Re your point on his unwillingness to restrain his mob, I get the impression that he thinks that denouncing the act is of itself sufficient, without the need to reference specific examples. But again I agree, he seems to have a strange disconnect between denouncing aggressive behaviour and failing to address it where he has the power to do so.
Hacker: how many starving African children could be saved if Britain abandoned its nuclear weapons programme?
Humphrey: The answer is none. They'd spend all the money on conventional weapons instead,
In England, there isn't as yet an alternative that could do the same. UKIP appeals to social conservatives but if it had 50 seats in a hung parliament, who would it back? Likewise, the Lib Dems remain distrusted. The Greens are threatened more by Corbyn than the other way round, while a breakaway SDP2 faces all the same problems (and more) that did for SDP1.